We probably learned it from our squad leader as privates. He told us we could find it in the dictionary between sh*t and syphillis. I mention this because the media wants us to feel related emotions about the recent bombing incident near Kunduz, where civilians were killed in an air strike. Perhaps you have heard? In case your local news outlet has forgetten to inform you of certain details of the current war, let me give you a synopsis.
Last week, the Taliban managed to hijack two fuel tankers of coalition diesel. In the process of absconding with the goods, they managed to get at least one of the heavy-laden trucks stuck in the process of fording a river. Being the thugs that they are, their solution to the situation was to go to a local village and dragoon by force the local populace to assist in getting the vehicle(s) free. One of their methods was to lighten the loads by “giving away the fuel”. The media may wish to convey an altruistic motive for the Taliban’s gift of fuel to poor villagers. Don’t fall for it. Their motive for taking the fuel in the first place was primarily for their own use and for resale, and to deny its use to coalition forces secondarily (otherwise they would have just blown it up). Some articles also portray the fuel give away as a frenzy of opportunistic locals taking advantage of “free fuel”. I don’t discount that on some level, but not to the extent most articles say. This occurred in the North, home of our first allies the Northern Alliance. Not necessarily a hotbed of Taliban sympathies; so I lean towards a strong element of threats and coercion on the part of the Taliban in getting the assistance of the locals.
In any case, the activity was observed from on high and the results of the observation was relayed to the German commander in sector, who had authority to call for an air strike against the target. This was not a shoot from the hip reaction, but rather a well-reasoned decision by the man with the responsibility to act on the facts that he had available to him. Two 500 lb bombs took out the target. There is no dispute that civilians were killed, only the numbers. A group calling itself the Afghan Rights Monitor claims that through its interviews of 15 villagers it has determined that only a dozen Taliban were killed versus 60-70 civilians. On the other hand, the Kunduz Provincial Government through a spokesman has said only 5 of the estimated killed were civilians. Somewhere between is the truth, but the truth may be unknowable due to the level of destruction at the site.
Who is at fault? That’s easy. The thugs caused it. Whether they were Taliban or just thieves (either is equally likely), they were the ones who put the villagers in danger. If the villagers were eager to glom onto free fuel, its a lesson on no free lunch or don’t be receiving stolen goods – take your pick. Lest I come off as hard-hearted, let me assure you that I do have sympathy for the poor folks just minding their own business who happen to be oppressed by this type of thug – be it Taliban or organized gang of thieves. The SF guys motto is “De Oppresso Libre”, which means to liberate the oppressed. That’s what we’re supposed to be doing, it goes hand-in-hand with defeating our enemies; you can’t do one without the other.
The next story you will see in the MSM to provoke sympathy and outrage is an “invasion” of an NGO hospital by US forces, who tied up staff and visitors and tried to intimidate staff into exposing insurgents there for treatment. The gallant NGO hospital staff stood up to the mean old GIs and refused to do so. Oh yes, violations of the Geneva Convention and all that. Don’t fall for that, either. We weren’t bombing the hospital, just searching it. Everyone knows damn good and well we are this first ones to treat a wounded adversary right after he’s tried to kill us. This ‘incident’ happened in Warduk Province yesterday – so look for it.
Getting back to finding sympathy. Careful you don’t look in the wrong place or rather try to misplace it. We didn’t start the fight or the fire. Civilians are going to get hurt, no matter how hard we try to avoid it – and we try mighty hard. Not our fault 99 times out of 100, I’d say. You go ahead and form your own opinion. There were a lot of civilians hurt by us while conducting WWII, but everyone is damn glad we won it. We do things a lot different in the 21st century, so be thankful of the improvement and appreciate it, rather than falling for what the liberal media is selling.
V/r,
1SGinTN
Steve Maley
Neil Stevens
yes it does come across as hard hearted
mom2oneson (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 2:04PM EST (link)If the villagers were eager to glom onto free fuel, its a lesson on no free lunch or don’t be receiving stolen goods – take your pick
That isn’t normal to try and justify and partially blame them for their death by saying they were just foolish and they needed to learn a lesson. You have weird sort of disconnect not viewing them as humans.
I view them as human
1SGinTN (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 2:18PM EST (link)That’s the sort of thing humans do. Humans have choices because God gave us the liberty to make choices. We have to reap the consequences of those choices as well. My grasp of reality is no disconnect. In Afghanistan and Iraq, and indeed most of the world, life is hard and choosing wrongly brings harsh results.
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
1SGinTN
mom2oneson (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 8:46AM EST (link)I take back what I said that it’s cold hearted and you don’t view them as humans. I’m apologize for what I wrote to you. When I read your original post I read it as because they had a naive idea about being able to get something for nothing or because they purchased something that had been previously stolen that they deserved to die.
*I :) nt
mom2oneson (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 8:50AM EST (link)nt
Sorry mom2, I think we're comparing apples and oranges.
nessa (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 2:48PM EST (link)Hard hearted in a combat zone isn’t comparable to hard hearted here, IMHO. I can guarantee everyone partaking in the free fuel knew it was stolen from ISAF, it doesn’t take a genius to see a crosshair on the truck. Everyone at the scene compromised their protections under the laws of land warfare by receiving the stolen fuel and or participating in the dispensation of it. What if that tanker had been needed at a FOB to keep its generators running and the lack of the fuel had compromised the security of the FOB? Better to take a hard stand and help limit the chance it will happen again.
One thing that Counter Insurgency and “modern warfare” tries to do is remove the pain and hardship for the civilians from war, I can understand why but at the same time, the effectiveness of Total War, as practiced during WWII and even earlier by WT Sherman in the American Civil War. Its brutal but it is war and it is effective. Try as we might, war only teaches lessons the hard way.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to Unified Patriots
teh twitter
Thank you Nessa
mom2oneson (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 8:19AM EST (link)I never heard of total war (or even knew of war approaches ) until after I was on RS. I understand it more now with your post too.
kowalski
mom2oneson (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 8:49AM EST (link)I guess there is a big difference between something stolen from the military vs something stolen from a civilian business. Not that it’s ok to steal at all but I guess it’s another level of bad since it can effect the life or protection of a lot of people. Thanks for pointing that out. I searched google for FOB.
Even aside from the theft
Raven (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 11:37AM EST (link)Keep in mind that, for whatever reason, these “civilians” were hanging out with the bad guys.
We know we can’t kill the bad guys if we let them get away every time they get into close proximity with “civilians,” so we do what we must.
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
It's also the only style of war that works
Raven (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 11:35AM EST (link)We don’t wage war for economic purposes. No cross-border raids or capturing of oil fields to fuel our economy.
America wages war to destroy her enemies. You can’t do that the way we’ve been trying to do it. It’s a big part of why we didn’t win in Vietnam. It’s why we went into Iraq in ’91 and back to Iraq in ’03. The refusal to go as far as necessary is why we’re still at war in Korea.
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
Actually, we were winning the COIN war
1SGinTN (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 12:24PM EST (link)in Viet Nam. Some of the lessons there were used by GEN Petraeus for the Surge in Iraq. See the book by Lewis Sorley, “A Better War”. These methods will been seen again in Afghanistan. We do have a track record of success in COIN warfare, but an track record of failure in political will. We need to channel the steadfastness of Lincoln in 1864.
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
sorry, "COIN" warfare?
Raven (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 10:57PM EST (link)Mind spelling out the acronym?
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
Additionally...
Raven (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 11:04PM EST (link)Whether we won or not in Iraq will be seen in the next decade or so. Yes. We gave these people the right to vote for the government they want for the policies and purposes they want.
But did we destroy our enemies or did we merely remove their facade of forced cooperation?
Japan and Germany are so scarred and terrified as nations that they have not even Considered the idea of going back to war since the ’40s. The mere idea that Maybe they should Talk about Considering rebuilding their military for defense purposes with a resurgent and threatening North Korea caused the complete collapse of Japan’s government inside of a week.
They may not be our closest friends right now, but we can rest assured they will Never be our enemies again.
Do we have that same certainty with Iraq? No. I don’t think so. And we have done Nothing, long term, to dissuade our other enemies from pursuing the ultimate violence of war. It has been such an utter failure in that last regard that North Korea decided the Truce was no longer worth keeping back in May. They haven’t, arguably, fired a shot yet, but they declared the truce over.
No. I am as yet no fan nor friend of the “New” “friendlier” way of waging war. I want a return to “When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.”
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
COunter-INsurgency
1SGinTN (Diary) Thursday, September 10th at 4:51AM EST (link)nt
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
duh, nt
Raven (Diary) Thursday, September 10th at 11:09AM EST (link)“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
mom2, I was taken aback
1SGinTN (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 9:39PM EST (link)by your rebuke, since I have always held your comments and opinions at redstate with high regard. My world view will no doubt seem harsh to you, but I assure you it is rather normal among my peer group. Your response is a reminder to me that I should remember the sensibilities of the audience. Just so you understand where I’m coming from: I was allowed entrance to the world of the warrior class over 36 years ago. Being a Combat Arms soldier removed me from the tempering influence of estrogen. In the words of CPT Harrison, a former CO, we were “men doing manly things with other men” and found ourselves well-suited it. In our jobs while training as well as combat, we quickly learned that a mistake (whether through ignorance, stupidity, or poor judgement) could easily make you not only wrong, but dead wrong. Heck, you could be right and still end up dead. I was a little too young to make the Viet Nam war, but all my Drill Sergeants and leaders as a young soldier were veterans of it. I assure you they didn’t get their combat patch on the right shoulder by handing out basket balls at the base gym. Their lessons and teaching methods were not gentle; but they were kind, in the sense that you quickly learned the point of the lesson for survival – and remembered. When the tools of your trade are automatic weapons, explosives, and tripwires attached to anti-personnel devices, you naturally tend to look at things in a straight-forward way. When you sleep on the ground, live in mud and dirt for days on end no matter the weather or temperature, and are prepared to be exposed to nerve gas and artillery fire, harsh is normal. When you see what thugs do to non-combatants, and the tactics they use against you, you will get hard of heart against them.
With the onset of marriage, and particularly since retirement to the civilian workforce, my demeanor has become more ‘civil’ – but I still revert back from time to time to the old way of communicating. My worldview has not been changed much, though. Thus I explain my “disconnect” to you, but I don’t apologize for it.
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
Thank you 1SGinTN
mom2oneson (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 8:33AM EST (link)Thank you for writing that out. I’m apologize for what I wrote and will post to take it back. I understand now. Some people in some situations don’t have the luxury of making mistakes.
Not to pick on you specifically
Hooah_Mac (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 8:52AM EST (link)This is exactly the problem with televised wars and the modern viewpoint. People sit at home in their laz-y-boy and get to thinking that combat is easy, but dead people are awful to look at.
Meanwhile, they never experience the life or death nature of being a Soldier. They never understand what it means to kill or be killed, the feeling of being on 100% alert for hours or even days at a time. They never have to scramble to get a buddy to safety while he bleeds to death. They never have to consider that their next action could be their last, and the last for their buddies. When someone has experienced these things, then they understand why calculations are made on the battlefield to a different standard than elsewhere.
War is a terrible, ugly thing. We fight because we have to, so that our loved ones and our freedoms are safe, As a Soldier, none of us WANT to be in a war – but when we are, we damn sure want to WIN. Various elected officials may not be very big on “victory”, but to us it is the only acceptable outcome to an action that has cost the lives of people closer than brothers to us.
Again, I’m not picking on you specifically, but your posts have brought this to my mind. In many ways, I’m glad that you don’t fully understand – that you don’t have to fully understand, at the same time, it is frustrating that decisions are made by people who don’t understand.
-Priorities-
1. Mission 2. Soldiers 3. Everything Else
Accepted
1SGinTN (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 11:27AM EST (link)of course, mom2. But I’m glad you expressed yourself, nevertheless. Dialog is all about understanding each others point of view, rather that ranting and name calling. Thanks.
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
Worse, those mistakes could kill your buddies
Raven (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 11:38AM EST (link)while you survive…
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
Exactly Raven
Hooah_Mac (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 11:47AM EST (link)I’m becoming more aware every day how much my view of the world has changed since I have been a Soldier, and particularly since I became an NCO.
As a civilian, your co-workers are periphery people in your life, some of them might become friends. As a Soldier, your co-workers are your family, your backup, your responsibility and your lifeline, and their well being becomes more important than your own, and the only thing more important than them is accomplishing the mission.
-Priorities-
1. Mission 2. Soldiers 3. Everything Else
That's a big reason for the disconnect, Hooah.
janis (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 6:04PM EST (link)The notion that people of the caliber of our military fighting for the peace and prosperity of others with no claim to accruing wealth or power for themselves out of the deal is just so foreign to those who seek power for themselves in order to dominate others and squelch freedom.
The Talibandits used the civs as human shields
Beaglescout (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 12:35AM EST (link)In other words, the Talibandits engaged in criminal conduct under the code of war, knowing the civs might be killed as a direct result of their actions. When the NATO force responded to attacks and killed civs *because* the Talibandits illegally recruited human shields, it is the fault of the war criminals. That’s why using human shields is a war crime, because it leads directly to unnecessary civilian deaths.
“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”
I have to confess I have a hard time worrying about civilian casualties.
Steph C (Diary) Wednesday, September 9th at 9:07AM EST (link)When a war is taking place where you are and you’re in a situation such as this, you have two choices. With either one you’re likely to die anyway, so why become the shield in the first place? They want liberation from the Taliban but they don’t want to engage in liberating themselves? It’s the same thing we saw in Iraq until it hit a certain point where they finally realized some were going to die anyway and made the choice to die for something worth dying for.
Passivity does not work in war. I have some sympathy for the civilian deaths but not as much as would suit the progressive media. Call me cold-hearted if you want.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
I care about civilian casualties *AND* blame the Taliban for them
Beaglescout (Diary) Thursday, September 10th at 5:08PM EST (link)In other news, it is possible to care and also obey the laws of war.
“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”
The left suffers from, among other things,
redneck_hippie (Diary) Thursday, September 10th at 9:04PM EST (link)a lack of a sense of proportion. The reaction from them, as far as I can see, is hypersensitivity whether it’s danger to the mayfly or an inadvertent war death. Could be related to their moral relativism. Or they’re just idiotic. Or both. Anyway, I wish the left would content themselves with saving the mayflies and let our military get after the bad guys, and especially without all the hystrionics.
Lefty claims that we are murderers is crazy, seeing that the collectiivists, Maoists, Leninists, Stalinists, and their ilk killed their own people in multitudes of millions. But, of course, the hysteria of the left is feigned. If they cared an ounce about preserving life, they’d have a different political platform completely and they’d have cheered Bush/Cheney on for defending Iraqui freedom against all odds.
I've never been comfortable with
redneck_hippie (Diary) Tuesday, September 8th at 10:26PM EST (link)the widespread use of the phrase, “collateral damage.” My first memory of similar concepts were my husband’s description of his experiences flying navigator on Willy Fudd observer runs in Viet Nam. He would never talk about things, but he did say the missions included calling in strikes on ostensible civilian targets in sam pans. The civilians were habitually used as cover for gun running by the Viet Cong. I could tell he did not like having to do it and understood why he was pretty much silent about his time there.
Some backstory on Kunduz
1SGinTN (Diary) Friday, September 11th at 8:32AM EST (link)Here is some first hand info regarding the Konduz Valley, by a man who was there: Vincent G. Heintz
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWRkMTQ3Y2E2MzA0Yzk5YmVmZGQzOTZhMDNmYjMzZTU=
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil