No … which is why they tax them with 15% payroll tax … and then gasoline tax and other taxes. It’s not that they don’t pay taxes … it’s that the taxes they pay are collected in a stealthy manner.

A flat rate that affects every dollar of income no matter who makes it or how … and eliminates corporate taxes and payroll taxes and gas taxes and so on and so on and so on … makes a lot of sense. No “prebate” nonsense. No stealthy taxes like sales taxes and the “employer’s share” of payroll taxes.

There’s no need to _raise_ taxes! Just let everyone see in one big fat number on April 15 just how much they contributed to running the government … rather than collecting the same amount in stealthy ways that are easy for people to overlook.

The people you’re talking about already pay 15% off the top in the form of payroll taxes. Are you talking about _adding_ 15% in the form of income tax … in other words increasing their tax burden from 15% to 30% … or just changing the way it’s collected from payroll tax to income tax?

If you’re talking about a flat rate tax that replaces all the other taxes then that’s a good thing in terms of making people more aware of what they’re paying … and it’s not a tax increase. While we’re at it corporate taxes and the gas tax and so on can all be eliminated too. Make it all show up in one lump sum on April 15.

There’s no way to sell the idea of a tax increase on the 47% of Americans who earn the lowest wages. No need for a tax increase either.

Eliminating withholding sounds great until you think about the cost of collecting the money from people who spend their whole paycheck and then can’t write a check to the IRS at the end of the quarter.

pay 15% off the top in payroll taxes. If they drive they get hit by federal gas tax. Liquor and cigarette taxes if they drink or smoke. Corporate taxes passed on as higher prices on pretty much everything they buy. It’s false to say they pay no tax to the federal government. The problem isn’t that they aren’t paying taxes … the problem is that they have no idea how much they’re paying.

It would be political suicide to propose a “tax increase on the poor”. And a bad idea too.

The government has its fingers in their pockets in all kinds of ways. They don’t need a tax increase … they need some education about how much they’re already paying.

How about this … a series of ads showing people who “paid no income tax” last year. Say it’s someone with a 30k/year job. Show their reactions as they find out that the federal government took $4500 … half from them and half from the employer … in payroll taxes. Explain how corporate taxes get passed along as higher prices … around $1500 based on one estimate I found for low-income families … the national average is over $3000 per household. Gas tax and other taxes too. Add it all up.

People think in terms of their take-home pay and other tangible amounts so make this concrete. They paid no income taxes … but the federal government took the equivalent of __three or four months__ of their take-home pay. Maybe that’s a year’s worth of rent or mortgage payments. Maybe two years worth of car payments. Make it concrete using real people and real numbers.

Close the ad with the person shocked to learn what they’re REALLY paying saying something like “I could have done a lot with a few extra paychecks in my pocket … what’s the government doing with my money?

Repeat for different occupations and wage levels.

How do you figure they’re getting a pass when the government is taking 15% for payroll taxes … another significant bite in the form of higher prices due to corporate taxes … smaller bites every time they fill the tank or buy cigarettes or booze … and so on. That’s the problem with so many ways of taxing people … very very few people have a realistic idea of how much of their own money goes to the government.

That hypothetical person earning a $30k wage and losing $4500 to the government in payroll taxes and maybe $1500 or so as the effect of corporate taxes on consumer prices … they may _think_ they didn’t pay much to the federal government but that money came out of their pocket and went … directly or indirectly … into the general fund whether they realized it or not. You’re right that they’re probably not motivated to see spending cut … but that’s not because the government didn’t take money from them it’s because most of it was taken in stealthy ways. Stealthy taxation is still taxation. The worst kind really.

It’s like the difference between being robbed at gunpoint and having your pocket picked. The problem isn’t that these people need to be robbed at gunpoint in addition to having their pocket picked. They don’t need to have the government take _more_ of their money. They need to be educated about the fact that they’re having their pocket picked.

If your idea is to change to a flat tax _now_ and then get rid of the payroll tax after SS and medicare are gone and enough people in those programs have died off that the payroll tax could be phased out … then you’re talking about a “tax increase on the poor” NOW with a promise of a tax cut for them maybe in a few decades. Maybe.

NOBODY is going to like the idea of a tax increase on the poor. For Republicans … it’s a tax increase! You’ve even managed to find a tax increase that liberals would have a hard time accepting … it’s a tax increase on the poor that would be _visible_ to the poor.

Offer my own plan? Just look up the thread I already suggested what I’d prefer. A flat income tax replacing _all_ other federal taxes. Get rid of the payroll tax and corporate tax and excise taxes. Let them see every year a lump sum total of what the government took. The idea is NOT to propose a tax increase but a simple and visible way of taxing people.

Realistically a sweeping tax reform like that isn’t going to happen any time soon. That’s why I proposed an alternative … educate people about how the government is taking money from them … most of it taken in stealthy ways.

Take that hypothetical person who earns 30k. The payroll tax is around 15% … corporate taxes passed on as higher prices 6% or more according to one estimate … without even getting to excise taxes the government is getting more than $6000 out of them and they probably don’t even realize it. At most they’re aware of $2000 or so of it that shows up as a line on their pay stub … the rest is _invisible_ and that’s the real problem.

The solution isn’t to have the government take MORE of their money! Educate them about how much they’re losing … and put it in concrete terms. Maybe it works out to eight paychecks … eight times their take home pay. A year’s worth of rent. If you’ve ever had to stretch a small salary you can understand how that’s going to sound to someone in that sort of situation. To them it’s a huge amount of money. They’re going to be thinking about what they could have done with that money if they’d been able to keep it.

Obviously we’re getting nowhere. I don’t see how that person earning $30k and having the government get more than $6000 from them … some shown on their paystub but most of it stealthily via the “employer’s share” and indirectly via corporate taxes passed on as higher prices and also excise taxes … is getting a “free ride”. They’re getting shafted and don’t realize it.

I certainly don’t think that having the government take MORE of their money is a solution … and the idea that anyone from either party would propose a tax increase on the poor is just nuts.

You aren’t addressing those points in your replies so you can just post another insult and we’ll call it quits.

You keep ignoring the point but the people you’re talking about … the ones earning wages … DO have a personal financial stake.

Money goes out of their pockets and into the general fund. Some directly and some indirectly … most of it so stealthily they don’t even realize it. But if those taxes weren’t taking their money they’d have a big chunk of money … in percentage terms … in their pocket that they don’t have now.

How is that not counting as having a personal financial stake? Money goes out of their pockets … into the general fund … paying for the same things your tax money pays for.

The problem is that they don’t KNOW it. This is INTENTIONAL. Some of that comes out on their pay stub … easy to overlook after your first few pay check in my experience. Some they never see because their employer pays it for them … but that’s really getting passed along to them in the form of lower wages because it’s overhead for the employer. Some they pay in the form of higher consumer prices because corporate taxes just get passed along. Some they pay in the form of excise taxes. Some they pay in the form of higher prices resulting from excise taxes. And on and on and on.

I’m agreeing with you that people have an interest in things they have a personal financial stake in … as long as they KNOW it. In this case they have the stake but it’s done in an insidious way that keeps them ignorant of it.

It’s so insidious that some people hear the “47% don’t pay federal income tax” statistic and misunderstand it to mean that the government doesn’t have it’s fingers in the pockets of those 47%! That’s the kind of ignorance that needs to be cured.

would be earning 36 cents an hour or whatever it is and paying 10 cents an hour or whatever in taxes. They aren’t earning much so there’s not much to tax … but the principel I’d propose would be that every dollar for every person gets taxed exactly once at one flat rate.

“The number, by the way, would have to be closer to 30% than 20% to include

If money is going out of their pocket and into the federal government’s pocket … as it is … then what matters is that they KNOW how deeply the government has its fingers in their pockets.

Besides my suggestion WAS for a flat income tax on everyone … replacing all other federal taxes. That’s idealistic but it makes everyone pay income tax AND doesn’t mean raising taxes on the poor … just taking the money at gunpoint rather than by picking their pocket so that they know what they’re paying.

Ending tax credits = raising taxes? Then we’re not talking about the 47% though we’re talking about people who make so little that the current tax credits are large relative to what they make. Like prisoners earning pennies an hour or someone who has zero income or only worked a few hours a week or something. If that “tax increase” … actually a reduction in giveaways … were the sticking point on tax reform I think it would be a solvable problem.