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Sometimes, It Really Is Different This Time – A Polling Post-Mortem (Part I of III)

The State Poll Averages Were Right

As promised, a mea culpa on my pre-election poll analysis: why I was wrong, why the state poll averages were right – and why I’d say most of the same things if I had to do it over. I suppose I have lost a good deal of credibility with a number of people by making the kind of out-on-a-limb prediction I don’t usually make, and being wrong. But my assumptions have always been out in the open. Let’s examine why they led to the wrong answer, and which of those assumptions should be re-evaluated in the future.

I. More Evidence Is Better Than Less

Discussions of polling often lend themselves to more heat than light. A lot of the post-election poll commentary is even dumber than the pre-election poll commentary, as victorious liberals spin a narrative that conservatives were all “poll deniers” or “poll truthers” ignoring the polls. Now, it’s true that there were more than a few people on the Right who made intelligent discussion of the polls harder rather than easier. It’s also true that some of the efforts at “unskewing” the polls were unhelpfully ham-handed; in this pre-election essay I explained why Dean Chambers’ unskewedpolls.com was more alchemy than science. Chambers was projecting a strong Romney lead in the polls back in September, when neither I nor almost anybody I knew believed that Romney was actually ahead. My mantra on Twitter in August and September, like that of many conservatives I respect, was simply that it was a close race, that Obama had problems with independent voters and hadn’t closed the deal yet, and that there was still time for Romney to catch up to him. While a lot of Romney’s problems were baked-in by mid-summer, I don’t think that was an unreasonable view to take at the time; as it turned out, there would be twists in the race throughout October. But those of us who attempted to take the polls seriously, and drew conclusions from the polling evidence itself as well as external evidence, were not denying anything; we were just looking under the hood.

A. Believe The Polls, But Don’t Believe Only The Polls

Let me start by restating my philosophy of polling, and indeed my philosophy of examining most any question. Polls are not reality. They are a tool for measuring reality. They are traditionally the best single tool, and polling averages make them a better tool by evening out the outliers. But they are not perfect tools: public polls have called the outcome of races wrong before, or been off on the margins of victory by a significant amount. There are reasons why campaigns spend a lot of money on their own polls, which – other than for purposes like push-polling or testing messages – they would not do if an average of public polls was as flawless a guide to the electorate as a thermometer. If you think public poll averages are an infallible predictor, then the uniform practice of actual campaigns is totally irrational. Indeed, listen to Jim Messina, the nuts-and-bolts guru of the Obama campaign, on his view of public polling:

Every night, Obama’s analytics team would run the campaign 66,000 times on a computer simulation. “And every morning we would come in and spend our money based on those simulations,” said Messina.

Their models ultimately predicted Florida results within 0.2%, and 0.4% in Ohio. The only state they got wrong, noted Messina, was Colorado, “where we got one more point than we thought we would.”

The Obama campaign was able to do that, he said, because they turned away from mainstream polling from shops like Gallup, which he called “wrong the entire election,” in their prediction that fewer minorities and fewer young people would turn out to vote.

“We spent a whole bunch of time figuring out that American polling is broken,” said Messina. “We never did a national poll. We only did local and state polls.”

Is Messina a “poll truther” or “poll denier” for saying that “American polling is broken” or rejecting “traditional” polls? Was he wasting Obama’s money by running his own state and local polls instead of just reading 538? Or is he reflecting the fact that public polls involve a certain amount of guesswork about voter turnout that can only be definitively tested each new election cycle by the final vote tallies?

The most recent set of publicly available polls are also not the only tool for measuring reality. There are all sorts of metrics – some more hard and quantifiable than others – that have traditionally been useful in assessing the state of play: voter-registration numbers, early voting data and absentee ballot data, trendlines in the polls, what the pollsters themselves are reporting about voter enthusiasm, and hazier indicators like small-dollar donations and the size of crowds on the campaign trail. It’s hardly anti-empirical to examine these additional facts, and allow them to affect your conclusions. The people who correctly predicted that Harry Reid would hang on to beat Sharron Angle when the final polls said otherwise were looking at this kind of information. If all you did was read the RCP average or 538, you would have missed that.

None of these are reasons to disregard the polls; they should still be the primary item of evidence. But neither does it make sense to treat them with blind reverence and ignore all the external evidence – especially when (1) different sets of polls are in conflict with each other and (2) the internal breakdowns of the polls, which can act as a sanity check on the plausibility of the polls’ assumptions, are telling you that the polls in question are predicting something that is historically unlikely to happen.

To go back to one more example from baseball analysis (sabermetrics), this is sort of like the “statheads vs scouts” debate: whether you can better project a player’s future accomplishments by looking at his statistics or by listening to experts analyze his “tools.” I’m in the stathead camp: I believe strongly in quantifiable data, and I place it at the center of just about any baseball analysis I do. In fact, I probably err more often than not on overemphasizing the numbers. But as Bill James, the father of sabermetrics, has often said, sabermetrics (or any other field of hard science, soft science or would-be science) is not the search for statistics, it’s the search for truth, and in searching for the truth, you don’t blind yourself to some of the available evidence simply because it doesn’t fit in a column of your model. Most statheads today will tell you that no matter how good your statistical measurements and how highly you prioritize them, you can learn things from also listening to the scouts that you might not learn anywhere else. The scouts can’t tell you a guy with a terrible stat line is actually a major star – but in a close case, their view can make the difference.

B. Regrets, I Have A Few

If I had it to do over, maybe I’d be less definitive in pronouncing Obama “toast,” but for the most part I’d look at the same evidence, see the same things and draw the same conclusions I drew at the time. I do, however, have two main regrets.

First, which is an unfortunate side effect of doing punditry as a part-time unpaid hobby rather than a full time job, is that I should probably have spent more time breaking down the internals of all the battleground-state polls to see exactly how geographically consistent the national trends were: I had seen those trends confirmed in Ohio and a couple of the other key battleground states, and didn’t do the deep, time-consuming dive into the internals of every single battleground state. As it turned out, Romney did very well with independent voters in a number of the battleground states, but critically underachieved with them in others and lost those states. Romney beat Obama with independents by 5 points or more in Ohio (+10), Virginia (+10), North Carolina (+15), Nevada (+8), and Pennsylvania (+5). In more lightly-contested states, he won them in Missouri (+26), Indiana (+11), New Mexico (+8) and Arizona (+6). But in two other battleground states, his margin with independents was narrow: Colorado (+4), and Michigan (+1). And he actually lost independents in Iowa (-14), New Hampshire (-7), Florida (-3), Wisconsin (-1), and Minnesota (-4). (It says something about Romney that his biggest failure with independent voters, especially in states with lily-white electorates that didn’t present the demographic challenges apparent elsewhere, came in the places where the voters had been exposed at length to his scorched-earth 2008 and 2012 primary campaigns). In non-battleground states where exit polls were taken, independents mostly trended pro-Romney in red states – Alabama (+52), Mississippi (+34), Montana (+7) – and pro-Obama in blue states – California (-12), New York (-4), Illinois (-5), Vermont (-40), Maine (-28), Maryland (-12), Massachusetts (-7), Oregon (-7), Washington (-3), Connecticut (-3). In just two totally non-competitive states did independents buck the state’s partisan tilt: Romney won independents in New Jersey (+1), and Obama tied him in Kansas. If Romney had won all the states where he carried independents, he would have won, but not in all the states I thought he would win:

I might have caught some of this with more time to commit to each state, although in some cases, that weakness came out only in the very late polls. Or not; for example, PPP had Romney up by 2 with independents in New Hampshire on October 28, and up by 7 with independents in Florida the same day.

Second, and far more importantly, I didn’t do enough to re-evaluate my conclusion after declaring it on Twitter on October 19 and laying it out in detail on October 26, eleven days before Election Day – and that week turned out to be Romney’s high water-mark in the national and state polls. Nationally, Romney led in the RCP average all but two days between October 9 and October 31, and Obama was below 48% in the average every day from October 8 to November 5. In four key states, Romney had seized the lead in the RCP average: in Colorado, he led from October 9-29; in New Hampshire, he led from October 19-21; in Virginia, from October 19 to November 2; in Florida, from October 8 to the end of the race. Those leads gave me confidence that Romney’s momentum in the national polls was real and would leave him needing to pick off just one more state to win. Instead, he lost all four, and the state poll averages were predicting three of those four losses by Election Day. When I wrote my initial post, I assumed (given the lateness in the cycle and the evident deterioration of Obama’s position in the national polls and with independent voters by October 26), that there was not time for any new game-changing events. I was wrong.

I try hard to avoid confirmation bias in evaluating the evidence before reaching a conclusion – but it can be a lot harder to avoid it after publicly committing to a conclusion, which of course is the exact same “painted in a corner” problem I suspected Nate Silver of having. I spent the week after my “toast” post without electricity, internet, heat or hot water and only sporadically able to get to my office (I had written most of this essay> when the lights went out on October 29), and probably did not spend enough of my remaining time going back over the subsequent polling to reconsider whether the conditions that seemed to show Obama in an untenable position were abating. (By Election Day, for example, the national poll averages were running in Obama’s favor as well). I remain doubtful that Hurricane Sandy had enough impact to swing the election and particularly doubtful that it did much to affect turnout, which decided the election; but its interruption of the dynamic of the endgame probably did do what the final week state and national polls showed happening: cut into Romney’s lead with independents and possibly cost him his chance to win New Hampshire, Virginia, and/or Florida. Exit polls showed that late-deciding voters broke in Obama’s favor, which I had not expected to happen for an incumbent whose approval ratings and favorability with independent voters had been underwater for so much of his term.

II. Poll vs. Poll

The polls, particularly the national and swing-state polls in the third and fourth weeks of October, were telling consistent stories about the opinions of different groups of voters, but contradictory stories about the numbers in which those groups would show up to vote. I looked at internal evidence, and saw that Romney was winning independents handily and Obama was drawing nearly no crossover support from Republicans, which meant Obama needed to win entirely by having enough extra Democrats vote to overcome Romney’s independent advantage. The first premise was borne out by Romney’s win with independents and slight edge with crossovers, although his 5-point margin with independents was at least 3 points smaller than the margin most polls had been showing when I first made my “toast” call. Had Romney carried independents by 8 or 9, as the polls were showing at the time, and not lost them in a few key states, Obama would have needed at minimum a D+4 electorate to win nationally. As it turned out, Obama won by about 2 points with a D+6 electorate compared to 2008′s D+7; Democratic turnout was down a point from 2008, but Republican turnout matched the 32% of 2008. So, my analysis correctly judged what Obama needed to do. The historic turnout conditions of 2008, which I believed were necessary for Obama to win, were effectively repeated.

There were all sorts of reasons, based in history and observable fact, to believe that those turnout conditions were unlikely to repeat themselves. Republican turnout had been unusually low in 2008 – the lowest since before Ronald Reagan started converting a lot of people to the party – following the historic financial crisis and 8 years of Bush, and had bounced back in 2010. While 2010 was a midterm election and involved a distinct electorate, its results underscored that there seemed no obvious reason to believe it would approach that nadir again. History tells us to treat with caution the assumption that elections held in the aftermath of a catastrophic event like the 2008 financial crisis are representative. The harder metrics, which I will discuss in Part III, also suggested GOP turnout was still doing well, if not as well as in the off-year elections of 2010. And the vaunted OFA turnout machine could only count for so much: certainly, no matter how sophisticated Obama’s turnout operation, low GOP turnout was something he could not manufacture through operational efficiency. Obama had polled poorly in areas like job approval for most of his tenure, and campaigns that lose independent voters tend to be losing at least some of the enthusiasm of their base as well. As I will discuss below, virtually all the features of Obama’s profile in the polls – mirrored in the post-election exit polls – were traditionally characteristic of losing candidates, as were the nature of the “this time it’s different, really!” arguments made by his boosters. It had to be different for him to win. The customary laws of political gravity had to be defied. And they were.

As I’ll get to more in Part II, with regard to turnout, what the exit polls show is that Obama really did do something that was very, very historically unusual – and on top of that, and perhaps even more importantly, Romney’s GOTV operation (both the mechanics and his ability to inspire marginal Right-leaning voters to show up) turned out to be far less than projected. This time, it really was different. And the challenging question going forward is whether it will stay that way.

III. State vs. Nation

For the third consecutive presidential election, the RealClearPolitics averages of state polls correctly called nearly all the states correctly – 49 of 50 states (all but Wisconsin) in 2004, 48 of 50 (all but Indiana and North Carolina) in 2008, 49 of 50 (all but Florida) in 2012. (The four missed calls all involved states that broke late and narrowly to the Democrats). There was a lot of hoopla about Nate Silver’s 538 model, and in my poll-reading pieces I noted – as have others – some quibbles with his model, with which I still have issues. But it’s not clear that the methodological quirks of the 538 model matter much anyway; they’ve yet to deliver a different answer than the RCP average in a presidential contest or in any significant number of statewide elections. Ditto for other state poll averages, all of which were basically on the mark. The state poll averages implicitly projected an electorate with a large Democratic turnout advantage, and that’s what happened.

That does not mean “the polls” were all correct. The national poll averages at both RCP and TPM had Romney ahead for much of October and ahead at the time I wrote my original “toast” post. This race was often compared to 2004 and ended up much the same, but in 2004, John Kerry never led in the RCP average in October. There were a variety of similar precedential indicators that Obama was in worse shape in the national polls than anybody who had gotten re-elected in the past. And traditionally, we have tended to see movements in the national polls followed by movements in the swing state polls – exactly what was reflected in the RCP average in Colorado, New Hampshire, Virginia and Florida. By October 29, Rasmussen’s state-by-state polls were showing Romney leading in enough states to win the Electoral College. Of course, Rasmussen was wrong.

It is somewhat Orwellian for Obama supporters to paint as “poll deniers” those of us who looked at a conflict between two sets of polls containing two divergent sets of assumptions, and conclude that one of those sets of polls was more likely to be correct because external evidence rendered those assumptions more reasonable.

There was great debate over whether it mattered at all to look at the national polls, since presidential elections are determined on a state-by-state basis. This was really two questions in one: how likely was it that there would be a popular vote/electoral college split, and was it more likely that you could predict the national popular vote from state polls, or predict the battleground state vote from national polls. It is worth noting, on the first score, that the defenders of the state poll averages were only half right. On the one hand, they spent months arguing that Ohio in particular was a firewall that would remain favorable to Obama even if the national vote went slightly for Romney – and if Romney had hung onto his leads in Colorado, New Hampshire, Virginia and Florida, Ohio would have been enough to put him over the top. I thought the theory that Ohio would vote more Democratic than the nation was unlikely: Ohio has had an exceptionally consistent record from 1860 through 2008 of being just barely more Republican than the country as a whole nearly every election. I was right about that: Obama won Ohio by less than his national margin. As The New Republic’s Nate Cohn notes:

[T]he exit polls show that Obama did worse among Ohio’s white voters than John Kerry…. if there was anywhere that the president should have excelled due to the auto bailout, it would have been northeast Ohio. But the president lost northeastern Ohio’s two classic white middle class bellwethers: Lake County, home to the overwhelmingly white suburbs and exurbs east of Cleveland, and Stark County, home to Canton. The president also lost additional ground in traditionally Democratic stretches of eastern Ohio, where Obama performed worse than any Democrat since McGovern in a stretch of “coal country” along the Ohio River. And Obama’s problems weren’t limited to eastern Ohio. The president performed poorly in southwestern Ohio, including one deeply conservative and culturally southern county where Obama’s performance was the worst by a Democrat since at least 1868.

But score one as well for the firewall theory as a whole: Obama could have lost Ohio and Florida (both of which voted more Republican than the nation) and Virginia (which voted more Democratic than the nation) and still won 272 electoral votes.

In theory, you should always look only at the state polls, since that’s where the election is; if the state pollsters are as good at what they do and poll as regularly as the national pollsters, there would never be a reason to look at national polling. While we all look at national polls, especially early in the race when states are being polled less regularly, I mainly looked at state poll averages in 2004 and 2008. Which gets to the second point: how likely state polls were to offer a better picture of the national environment than national polls. I agreed with Sean Trende that the potential flaw in this theory was that many of the state pollsters at issue (other than pollsters like Rasmussen or PPP that poll both nationally and in the states) were relatively new to the game or had individually sketchy track records that couldn’t be automatically substituted for the record of “state polls” as a whole.

As it turned out, though, the state pollsters were closer to the mark, and should be the main focus of our attention in future races, at least in the closing months. But why were they right when the national pollsters were wrong? For the answer to that, you need to look at how the pollsters decided what the electorate would look like. I will cover that topic tomorrow in Part II.

COMMENTS

  • 82ndabn

    What were you guys saying after 2004? This country shifts. It’s never permanent.

  • leftylurker

    I admire your integrity. Thank you for this and your insights!

  • 1termobama

    I’m sorry but this completely glosses over how the entire Republican Party apparatus (media, pundits, staffers, supporters and pollsters) were universally wrong on their assumptions, cherry picked only favorable polls, outright dismissed polls that were outside of these assumptions, and were collectively humiliated on election day.

    Only GOP-leaning pollsters were wrong. Suffolk said they would stop polling VA, FL, and NC because they were a done deal for Romney. Rasmussen was wrong everywhere. Dick Morris should not be employed. Karl Rove should give out refunds. And Fox News owes its viewers an apology for deceiving them that Romney’s win was inevitable.

    Here is how you were all wrong:

    1. Ya’ll made the assumption that 2008 was a fluke, so any poll that replicated that turnout was immediately dismissed. Was there any proof beyond anecdotal that the Obama coalition (woman, youth, latino, blacks, liberals) was going to dissipate?

    2. Party ID is meaningless. Most folks don’t cling to a party outside of the hardcore partisans. When you weigh for party ID your results will not be accurate. The GOP saw this as the only logical rationale while liberal pollsters correctly predicted that Party ID is more emotional than statistical, and thus ignored it.

    3. Independents are meaningless. Why? Because of the Bush presidency many Republicans felt uncomfortable calling themselves a Republican, so they call themselves Indies. The Tea Party also tries to distance themselves from the GOP label as well. To a lesser extent this applies to Democrats too, so when you add partisan leaners to their respective parties, the true Independents are an extremely small number.

    4. Ignorance. You can’t create an electorate by shaping the polling. I don’t know how some of you folks saw this as a Romney landslide unless you really can’t take constructive criticism. This election surprised no one who was out of the GOP bubble.

    You said that simple polling aggregates nailed the election down to the state, this was obvious for a long time.

    5. This is no longer a Conservative country. As much as it scares me to write this, but the GOP does not have the national coalition to contest for the presidency. The GOP is now like the Democrats of the 80′s. They’ll control the House, and contest the Senate, but when it comes to presidential elections, they will get blown out of the water.

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    Other than the nasty tone of your comment, you make some very good points, even if it is after the fact. If you can see them, so can others, so the questions is What will we do with them?

    As to those points:

    #1. This was not so obvious before the fact. Actually, the facts of Obama’s appearance attendance and enthusiasm were apparent (but wrong) indicators that he did NOT have the adulatory support he enjoyed in 2008. What was really missed was that 3 million McCain voters decided to sit the election out. It is still not clear (AFAIK) WHY they decided that way. Logically, it boggles the mind that they’d prefer 4 years of a continuing Obama recession/depression/ObamaCare/hightaxes/highdeficits/inflation/deception to a chance to see what someone who actually understands how businesses develop and grow can do. Romney made plenty of mistakes, for sure, and this is where they hurt him most. Had he made the right moves after the first debate, the result might have been significantly different. Strangely, Republicans seem to be making those moves today, as Senators McCain and Graham have grown hind legs to stand on.

    #2. That is exactly the stance that Gallup takes. Almost word for word.

    #3. A decent point, but in AZ about one third of the electorate is registered as “independent.” If polling shows two-thirds of voters intending to vote for Romney, it’s hard to agree that Obama will win. And of course he didn’t win in AZ. From a psychological standpoint, however, Republicans have a hard row to hoe. They need to honestly cultivate their conservative base, but do it in a way that doesn’t alienate non-Republicans who would vote with them on most issues but against them on one hot-button issue.

    #4. Not nice to call your readers ignorant. Nor productive. Many of us had what at the time were logical and even intelligent reasons for believing what we believed, some of them based on a belief that the American people were smart enough to see through the storm of disinformation put out by the Obama campaign, regardless of what the polls said. And speaking of polls, I’d like to see one that surveys the voters who switched either way from 2008.

    #5. Quite pessimistic of you. While Romney lost big in the electoral college, his popular vote was much closer–maybe even within the margin of error between a center-right or center-left country. But you should know that THAT isn’t the big problem. The BIG problem is that the Democrats were able to clobber us in the youth vote, apparently all the way up to age 44. Now THAT is scary. Our only hope seems to be in birth control, and we seem to be in the wrong position there. (^:^)

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    Only thing is, any of those Romneys would be better than what we are ALREADY facing with the guy you “knew” and “didn’t like a lot of.” If you had NO idea, then you were not paying attention. Sadly, I think you may represent a whole lot of other people who don’t write here.

    Did you see the front page of USA Today, today? Take a look at it. Our President gives no indication that he wants to compromise in any way to avoid that cliff. He may not even know why he SHOULD compromise.

    Thank you so much for voting. Say, where can I get some of that Obama money? With the continuing recession, I may lose my home. Thanks again.

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    He made big mistakes, but they had nothing to do with Obamacare vs. Masscare. He ignored way too many issues, including that one.

  • http://www.baseballcrank.com Dan McLaughlin

    I promise, there is more in the next 2 parts!

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    You wanted him to get “into the weeds” with future policy, but California Conservative above says “Losers are Wonks” (I think he meant “Wonks are Losers”). He wanted Romney to be somebody else, somebody more “likable,” apparently still wanting to fight the last Primary election season. Then he offers up Susanna Martinez and Mitch Daniels as his preferred candidate(s) for 2016. I guess I can’t judge the idea myself. I thought Romney was perfectly likable.

    But I can opine that even YOU can see there are plenty of opinions about what we did wrong and what we should do to fix it. If the Republicans don’t figure it out, it bodes very ill for the United States. Hard to have much hope when half the country is apparently brain dead, voting based on something other than reality.

    Just call me an “Angry Old White Man.” But what happens if the party loses US?

    Another thought. The Democrats campaign as and ARE the party of minority voting blocs. Republicans need to figure out how to campaign as the party of… what?

  • jimmyg

    you cannot beat nothing with nothing. Obama was offering not much and Romney would not tell us what he was going to do other than to reduce taxes and everything else was a secret.

  • http://www.baseballcrank.com Dan McLaughlin

    Next time, try reading the post & having comments related to it. Also, reading who wrote it.

  • Finrod

    Some of us don’t appreciate sexual slurs like ‘teabaggers’ being used here. And if you can’t figure out the difference between freeing 25 million Iraqis from tyranny and hanging your ambassador out to dry while his compound is being shelled, then perhaps you’re just too stupid to be an informed voter.

  • redcal

    This post is a righteous pile of win. Point #3 especially was something that no one in the echo chamber seemed to understand even though it was blatantly clear from (literally) hundreds of polls showing a persistent +D advantage, and a shift of (some) conservatives from R to I, especially since 2010.

    Again, it’s not like the right wing media and the liberal media both took blind shots at reality, and the left was just a little bit closer and a little bit luckier. The right wing media was criminally, tragically, outside-the-MOE wrong, and the left (especially the Obama’s campaign internals) absolutely nailed it. Down to sub-percent accuracy, in each state. It wasn’t even close.

    There’s really very little point in each pollster on the right apologizing or justifying themselves in detail, after the fact. It’s not about any one pollster. It’s about a systematic echo chamber denialism that seems to take pride in elevating emotional narrative over hard logic. Being willfully anti-science may win attention from the entertainers in the media (witness Dean Chamber’s rapid ascent), but it doesn’t win elections.

  • vancouverite

    And the signs from the Republicans that they are ready to compromise are…. ? Pot, Kettle. Kettle, Pot.

  • runner12

    What an assenine commentary. Those ” racist” Tea Party people (I will not use the horrible name you used) are more to the libertarian side, you dolt. Only the Left uses the language you do. Therefore I must conclude you are of the Left. No true libertarian would criticize Bush and then give a pass to Obama on Libya. Note: Obama went in without Congress approval, something Bush never did. Also, Benghazi is a big deal.

    You are simply a lefty troll, and a really bad one.

  • redcal

    I wish that this were true. But it doesn’t explain why, with Democrats far more vulnerable in this Senate cycle, they not only held onto control but actually gained (!!!) seats.

    This was not just a candidate problem, or even a ‘wonk’ problem, unless you think Scott Brown is a wonk, or Richard Mourdock, or Todd Akin.

  • runner12

    Your number one and two points are a little off. First, I would say that more and more young people are not voting. They make up a small portion of the electorate and are as fickle as they come. Secondly, when you break down the women vote, Romney won among white females. The fact that more black women voted this time around skewed that number.

    I would also say that your third point may be off as well. I know you are using Pew polling and you actually misrepresented their polling data. Even so, there is other polling out there that conflicts with their data. But nice try at getting in left-wing talking points. I will give you all credit, you are persistent. But now you are posting this nonsense on diaries that have nothing to do with the subject.

  • redcal

    You didn’t actually engage with any of the arguments 1termobama made.

    This is the kind of echo chamber denialism that is losing us elections left and right.

  • gscandlen

    I have yet to see any report — ANYWHERE — of what the popular vote percentages were. Very curious. It was touted all over the place in 2008 — 53% to 47%. Everything I see this time is electoral college numbers. No one wants to admit just how razor thin this “mandate” was.

  • runner12

    No, actually I did. And that person is a troll. Note how they referred to us as “ya’ll.”

    Let me spell it out for you so can understand.

    1). The youth vote: For some reason, this is somehow touted as the holy grail. When in fact, it is not. This is a small portion of the electorate who votes based on how they are feeling that day. Most people’s idealogy changes frequently during these years, so trying to pander to these people is often like shooting fish in a barrel. But they like free stuff, so there’s that. And before you accuse me of being old, I am not. Which is why I can speak with some amount of credibility. I do not have time to go into the developmental psychology of people this age, but if you have time I would encourage you to do so. Very interesting stuff that will make my point more clear.

    2). The woman vote. As a woman, I can freely say that I found the war on women offensive, as did the liberal Kirsten Powers. Apparently, so did most women. Romney not only close the gender gap, I read somewhere that he actually won among white women. He simply lost the minority women vote.

    3). I agree that we need to reach out to minorities. I have posted about it often. But the Pew results he quoted are at odds with other polling done among Latinos. He also lied when he said the majority supported gay marriage.

    I am tired to death of the kick the socon out myth and I will call it out each time I say it. We do not need more liberal white votes, we need to make inroads among socially conservative minorities. And contrary to our friend’s quotes, the majority of minorities are socially conservative.

    There. Was that clear enough for you?

  • goodgovernance

    “It says something about Romney that his biggest failure with independent voters, especially in states with lily-white electorates that didn’t present the demographic challenges apparent elsewhere, came in the places where the voters had been exposed at length to his scorched-earth 2008 and 2012 primary campaigns.”

    This. Despite Romney’s undoubtedly true reputation as a good family man, as a person who always dealt squarely with people who were in his inner circle, in terms of his interactions with the public I was always boggled by how he consistently acted under the assumption that voters have the long-term memory of toadstools. You can only have faith in an Etch-A-Sketch strategy (and let’s face it,that was the strategy Romney went back to, time and time again) if you feel confident that your previous sketch will never come back to haunt you.

    Romney’s defeat was in large part due to his campaign straining under the increasing weight of all the nagging doubts and uncertainties the public had about him. Romney was able to stay a step or two ahead of those doubts for a good long time, but in the end they caught up to him, and he paid the price.

  • redcal

    You just repeated a bunch of narrative that have been disproven. I hope they made you feel better. Perhaps you still believe Romney will win, based on your reasoning.

    1. The youth vote was high in both 2008 and 2012, and overwhelmingly liberal. The Obama campaign knows how to target them and turn them out in a way that we simply do not. That’s just what the data says.

    2. Overall, Obama won women by double digits. You gloss over “Romney won white women, Obama won nonwhite women” without realizing that Romney barely won white women and Obama crushed among nonwhite women. Net-net, largest gender gap in modern electoral history. Again, just the real data, not your fuzzy wishful thinking.

    3. You’re just wrong about the “other polling done among Latinos”. I suspect you’re just cherry-picking one poll that you overheard a whispered rumor about from your second cousin’s ex-roomate, as the other members of the echo chamber did. But please, feel free to respond if you have actual data.

  • namohalko

    According to Wikipedia Obama is at 50.6% with 62,711,814 and Romney has 47.8% with 59,189,598. The counting of absentee and provisional ballots is still ongoing in some states I believe, so the numbers may continue to change at least a little. The electoral votes were much easier to nail down.
    In 2004 GWB had lots of political capital and a mandate with 62,040,610 votes (50.73%), after trouncing the hapless John Kerry, who managed only 59,028,444 (48.27%). I think Bush had a mandate in 2004 but there’s no way Obama does now.

  • Bettybb

    Oh I do hope that you continue this thought process. It is just this kind of faulty assumptions, denial of facts, resulting from living inside the GOP bubble , that guarantees Dems will continue to win.

  • MoeLane

    Yeah, I have to agree: it’s turning out to be a much worse week than you probably expected last Tuesday.

    …Sorry?

    Bye.

  • checkmate2012

    norishman, if social conservatism doesn’t resonate in the greater Detroit area, which it obviously doesn’t, what does? Just curious because whatever one calls the leadership in Detroit, it ain’t working. It is the epitome of failure at all levels, including not admitting failure when the buildings are crumbling and street lights are being extinguished to herd those left in the city into a manageable zone due to money constraints. Glad they vote for social justice over conservatism…how’s that workin’ out? It’s not aimed at you but just points out the ridiculous.

  • runner12

    1). Obama won the youth vote because he promised forgiveness on student loans and free birth control. Sorry, but last time I checked we are not the party of giving out free stuff to win elections. You failed to respond to the fact that people’s ideology changes during this age period frequently. You also dismissed the fact that they make up a very small portion of the electorate.

    2). I did not gloss over anything. You made a blanket statement about women, which was not true. The facts are that women were split based on race, not gender. So your original argument was based on a false premise. Had you stated that Romney had a problem with minority women, your statement would have been accurate. But it was not, so you are not. That is hardly fuzzy-wishful thinking, it is called logic. You should try it some time.

    3). No, I am not cherry-picking polls. The data that our troll spewed was from the left-leaning Pew research and our friend even overstated that data to suit his point. You have yet to explain to me (or to anyone) how alienating over half your base to garner 1-2 percentage points among white voters is a winning combination. Now, I assume you have taken some basic math courses in your day. So this should not be hard. The kick the socon meme is narrow-minded and short-sighted. It shows a complete disregard for how we are losing minorities and the reasons we are losing them. Hint: It is not the social conservatism. Sadly, it is the fiscal conservatism/small government argument that loses them. We have to do a better job at communicating that message.

    I do not know why I am wasting my time with you. You obviously have an agenda because you keep repeating yourself on multiple diaries, often when it has nothing to do with the subject of the diary.

  • runner12

    Not to be rude, but if you live in such a diverse area, you have a poor understanding of the minority culture. It was not the social conservatism that drives minorities away, it is the fiscal conservatism/small government argument. I cannot tell you how many minorities I encounter who agree with me 100% on social issues, but pulled the lever for Obama. We have to do a better job of communicating the limited government message and how it will directly help these communities.

    We as conservatives find it hard to believe that anyone would believe the lies that are told about us to minorities. But they do. They believe we really are evil, rich, racists who want to throw granny off of a cliff. That is why they vote for Democrats in droves. We have to dispel those lies with truth. Compromising our beliefs on social issues is not the magic pill that too many are advocating for.

  • California Conservative

    Maybe we should apply the Chicago strategy ourselves

  • http://www.baseballcrank.com Dan McLaughlin

    14 points is “barely”?

  • gafisher

    Interesting post, but note that none of the polls factored in endemic vote fraud.

  • timcooper62

    Obama could have been the devil incarnate with horns and a pitchfork and the blacks were going to vote for him. Black enthusiasm was there as they were motivated to the polls to save the brother from the evil white guy. If Obama was a white guy, I think you would have seen less turn out of Black voters.

  • hunter

    Moe,
    With all due respect you just demonstrated a great example of echo chamber thinking: Banning those who give bad but accurate news. Is that really constructive?

  • celador2

    Polls or polling today are aself fufilling predictions. They are major news items and influence discussions on campaigns. Al polls as news strories from and reinforce opinion and as a result create a march to the inevitable. I may be poll addicted. Nah not me. Hmmm

    I am tired of being captive of the polls. I feel so powerless and outright impotent when I read them and cringe or breathe easy like a drink. I want my swagger back.

    I think now I am going to march as if my side can win by getting out as many voters as we can. And leave it at that.

  • hunter

    redcal,
    The fact is Obama received a lot fewer votes this time than last. That is very unusual in a victorious re-election campaign. The fact is the House is Republican and more so. More states elected Republican Governors. More state legislatures are Republican. Things need to be fixed, but the reports of the death of the Republican party are premature.

  • runner12

    While there is some truth to this, it does not help us when we make no effort to reach out to this demographic. Believe it ir not, many in the Black community were not happy with Obama. They just did not trust Romney. That is not necessarily all Romney’s fault, just decades of not fighting back in a meaningful way the false meme that all Republicans are racist.

  • hunter

    You just passed on not at least voting against Obama. And you claim to be a libertarian. that seems incompatible.

  • runner12

    Thank you for being respecful. It really does go a long way. While I disagree with you on the social issues portion, I completely agree with you on your reservations regarding Romney and smaller government. I had mine as well. As for Ryan, well I agreed with him on everything.

    ObamaCare is a disaster. I do not have time to go into all of the reasons why it wil be an epic fail right now. But the cliff notes version is that it does nothing to lower the cost if healthcare, which is the real issue. It also creates a large government bureaucracy governing life and death issues for people. Not a good idea. People will lose out everytime. If you have any more questions, I would be happy to explain it to you. Being in healthcare, I see first hand why this will be a mess and a disaster.

    Lastly, i do agree with your last paragraph and it may be one of the largest reasons we lost. The 47% comment was not only a huge gaffe, but bad strategy. There wil always be takers, but instead of wagging our fingers at them perhaps we should start educating them on why being independent and not dependent in government is a good thing for them.

  • Jack_Savage

    This is very true, and is the key to the hispanic and black vote.

  • Jack_Savage

    Stockholm Syndrome.

  • remalimo

    I believe one of the obstacles that was not considered in your analyses is that many of the Republican voters set out this one is that they felt that they were not a part of this election because ti candidate was already determined prior to them having a say in who was their horse in this race. I know that I have harped on this before but until you make the voter feel part of an election you have let them decide who they will have the opportunity to put their horse in the race.

    What is the answer? Let all states vote on the same day for the candidate of their choice. I know that the powers that be in the North East would like for their candidate to be the one for all voters to vote on. If you don’t have a dog in this fight you set our the general election. Solution, change the system!!!!!

  • joeydavis

    It really wasn’t different and it really didn’t defy political logic. Any pundit worth his salt knew Obama was going to win. He may have been in public denial, but he knew Romney was dead coming out of the conventions.

    No candidate as far behind as Romney was on October 1 had ever won the election (still haven’t). No incumbent with an approval rating of 49% or higher had ever lost an election (Obama 50, still haven’t). No candidate with an approval rating of 47% or below had ever won an election (Romney 47, still haven’t)

    .The fact was in March and remained in November that Mitt Romney was the wrong candidate in this election environment (and perhaps any where he is the Republican). Obama proved absolutely what many of us knew and argued way back in the primaries when Romney’s selling point was “swing voter appeal”. “Swing voters” don’t exist and to the point the do exist, they don’t matter.

    Elections are won and lost with base voters and base excitement. It was widely believed that Republican voters would turnout to vote against Obama, while Democratic voters would not turnout to vote for Obama. That’s laughable. People are always more motivated to act positively than negatively. It’s human nature.
    My number was 290-248 Obama on election night. I missed Florida and Virginia. Before the primary season ended my projection was 319-219. I missed Virginia (I’ve misread the demographic shift there).
    Incidently, my Santorum map was 282-256 Santorum and I still believe it would be accurate. Santorum had purple state appeal with blue collar whites that Romney failed with in Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Ohio and Pennsylvania.
    We nominated the wrong guy. We lost. End of Story

  • UpLateAgain

    2010 was a landslide because people started becoming genuinely afraid for the loss of our freedom. That prompted the Tea Party Movement phenomenon…. with very public and very large displays of dissatisfaction with Obama’s ‘fundamentally change the country’ Juggernaut. Obama was reelected because the Democrats were able to convince the majority of us that things were not that bad… and were actually slowly getting better.

    2014 will likely (unfortunately) be a response to a crashing economy and attendant social unrest…. so I anticipate a large swing back to the right once again. What happens after that will depend on a lot of at this time unknowable circumstances (e.g., if Iran gets the bomb, a lot will change).

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  • lester2

    Interesting, but behind a lot of this is the following question: why did you and others not accept 538 at face value? To an intelligent reader– and not necessarily a statistician– it was painfully obvious that he knew what he was talking about. Silver is transparent and with a proven track record. He nailed the 2010 results. There was never a day that he had Romney as a favorite, he saw that Mitt’s momentum was largely an invention (save a couple days following Denver), and by election day, he knew it would be a landslide.

  • MoeLane

    No argument there: which is undoubtedly why Nate Silver didn’t do one this year, and that was the right call to make. But when a Silver fanatic shows up on our site to poke with a stick, he or she would be well-advised to not come across as less informed than the people that he or she is presuming to lecture. :)

  • MoeLane

    Yes! It’s amazingly constructive. Thanks for asking!

    Also, use the Contact link below for any and all future concerns, objections, and suggestions wrt our moderation policy. This is not a request.

  • howlermonkey

    >You can only have faith in an Etch-A-Sketch strategy

    The Obama campaign had faith in it. Politico had an article this week with on the record quotes from the top of the Obama camp about how they dropped the flip-flopper attack after message testing (and Bill Clinton personally) convinced them that the public sees it as a positive, that your views change when the evidence/circumstances change. It comes off as thoughtful according to their focus grouping.

  • cbartlett

    Flagstaff – “… based on a belief that the American people were smart enough to see through the storm of disinformation…”
    I think that exact assumption was a very basic problem in this election. There is a huge ignorance problem in this country about elementary economics, the way our tax system operates and the basics of business management. Our schools have been doing a miserable job (perhaps by liberal design?) for decades now so these “younger voters” not only don’t get the information in school, most don’t even have parents that know enough to teach basic principles at home. either. I come from an accounting/tax background and my husband and I run 2 small businesses. You would be surprised how many people we come in contact with say completely crazy things out of ignorance. When we take the time to explain the process or concept correctly, they are shocked and tell us that they’d “never understood all of that anyway” – they never had anyone that could explain it. Sometimes, straightening out one person’s thinking actually reaps benefits as per the domino theory – we always take the time to teach when we have the opportunity. I think Romney (and many Republicans, in general) took it for granted that the Rep. base, especially those younger voters, would just “know” what he meant by smaller government or how lower tax rates encourage investment and job creation or why less choices in healthcare would raise the cost. I thinky 90% of people do not understand these principles – RS readers tend to take it for granted that other Republicans think like we do. Romney was never able to “teach conservatism” – explain in simple terms why conservative economic principles lead to more individual freedom. It was just too confusing for a lot of voters. Easier to stay home.
    Couple that loss of conservative base with the Obama supporters (also economically ignorant. by the way) who either voted for Santa Claus or voted single issue (i.e. I will ONLY vote for someone who is pro-choice OR someone who who is pro-immigration OR someone who is pro-gay marriage – doesn’t matter at all what their economic stance is) = epic fail.
    Conservatives must learn how to do a better job in educating the masses and also how to use the Alinsky tactics effectively FOR our side.

  • norishman

    Nah, you’re fine. :)

    But that’s what I’m saying. It’s not like there aren’t socially conservative minorities – it’s that it doesn’t RESONATE enough will the majority of them to make a big enough difference in the electorate. Politics is a game of priorities; social conservatism is not the majority of minorities’ priority.

    Yes, fiscal conservatism is not liked by inner-city minorities – but that is because being conservative with money will NOT help illiteracy rates, end corruption (more money lying around, more to take), halt crime, or increase worker pay (a better, and self-sustained tax base to fix up buildings, roads, etc, without relying on other people’s money). These are things that are NEEDED to turn around a minority-filled, poor, working-class city (like Detroit for example). Take my word – limited Government is the painfully slow road to recovery for these cities. It needs collaboration to work – and not having the Government involved makes that VERY hard; there’s no authority leading the other systems involved. Now, a conservative appropriation of money is definitely appropriate (after all, just throwing money at a problem won’t fix it) – but fiscal conservatism – as a whole – is not just that. I could go on, but I have other points to make.

    I, as a moderate, notice that all the slander you guys accuse each other of is often not realistic. In fact, most of the time it’s just hyperbola mixed with misunderstanding. I go on liberal blogs all the time – and they aren’t much different than here (I recently joined because I wanted to get the other side of the story). But, just like you, they like to be snarky too. xD I never said you had to compromise your beliefs – but I would warn about compromising the beliefs of others; all this does is make enemies. Take the women vote (a minority vote) for example: they didn’t like the aspects of social conservatism this time around. And if people like Murdock and Akin are still common in the GOP – I doubt they will ever come back…

    People are reactionary; both sides use that to their advantage. The only way to stop it is for enough people from both parties to agree to. And that just isn’t going to happen anytime soon – simply because of mistrust. I’m a proud moderate because I trust that all politically active people have good intentions – it just doesn’t always come out right – and sometimes it really just isn’t what some people need. But you’re right that we need to communicate better – although not to prove points or win elections…

    Edits for grammar.

  • runner12

    Your first paragraph is definitely thought provoking. I think we can be both fiscally conservative and small government while solving the issues that plague the inner city. After all, as you pointed out we have been throwing money at these areas for years with bad results. Perhaps if those in authority were to empower their constituents to take more of an active role in cleaning up their communities it would be a start. Of course, then you would have to have people of integrity in office, which is often not the case.

    I am actually a woman, so I can say that most of us were not offended by the social conservative message. I will admit that Akin’s coments offended me greatly, as it did other conservative women (see Michelle Malkin). But I was equally offended that the Left seemed to think that all I cared about was free birth control and abortion on demand. As a young professional woman, that is offensive to me. It treats me like some dumb (you fill in the word) who does not have a brain in her head. Additionally, Romney actually won among non-minority women, so I think that meme was a false one based on knee jerk reactions before the data was fully analyzed.

    I used to feel like you did, that the parties both loved America and I just disagreed with their views. But the Democrat party is no longer the one of JFK, they have been highjacked by the hard Left. These individuals believe in a neo-socialist world view. I am not using that term as a pejorative, just a descriptiong of thei political ideology. For that reason, I do not see us agreeing on much soon.

  • norishman

    I respectfully disagree with you first paragraph out of what I’ve seen. What this city needs is action from the state Government – not just localities (although, yes, that is also needed). The formula is to have power from above the localities crack down on corruption and crime, while having the local people organize their friends, family, and neighbors to work together to fix the culture of the city – as well as appoint new, responsible leaders to local positions of power. This will take a LOT of money (it’s like an investment in the city itself) and will take a serious amount of Government involvement. But it is literally the only way I see it getting any better. It’s a multifunction operation, and the city folk are willing (and trying) to get it going. But they need help; they can’t do it alone… It’s not a top-down operation, or a bottom-up operation; it’s both – and there are plenty more things to try (that I can think of anyway) that would help the situation. :)

    I respect you for your passionate position on women’s health issues – but I never heard anything from the Left “seeming to think that all women cared about was free birth control and abortion on demand”, just the same as how I heard people on the Right denouncing Murdock and Akin while the Left claimed they embraced them! That’s the kind of hyperbole I’m talking about; yes, they made a big stink about some republicans wanting to get rid of birth control and abortion – but that was what it was about: getting rid of them completely. I’m very sure many socially conservatives are not that extreme, but this is why I said “People are reactionary; both sides use that to their advantage” and “I never said you had to compromise your beliefs – but I would warn about compromising the beliefs of others; all this does is make enemies.” More women went with the Left’s position here (as seen by how Romney lost the women vote as a whole), and that is because they used reactionary tactics. It worked – as many women were afraid that their values or livelihood would be compromise, and thus placed that as their #1 priority (again, politics is all about priorities). And that is speaking for statistics; the majority of women didn’t agree with the social conservative platform this time around. I won’t weigh in on what I think (because I’m a man, and should not have a voice on this issue), so I’ll leave it at that.

    Personally, I’m a Philosophical Communitarian. It’s like Libertarianism, but with much less emphasis on Private Property, Freedom, and the Individual (they are still important to me, just not my priorities) – with much more on Community, Sacrifice for the sake of others, and Equality. For that reason, I believe that we are of one society – one community – and that is why it is hard to say that one side favors that society more than the other. I stand in the middle so that I can see both side equally and without bias. It is from that stance that I disagree that the Left is a bunch of neo-socialists, just as much as I disagree that the Right is just a bunch of neo-fascists. It’s over-generalizing, and more proof of the mistrust between people of different ideologies.

    We would get far more done as a society if we stopped demonizing one another, and instead put that effort into solving our problems…

  • runner12

    Well, I can agree with most of the idea of your first paragraph. It is along the lines of what I was trying to say. Perhaps I was not as specific as I should have been. Of course the state would have to crack down on the corruption and crime. When we conservatives speak about cutting spending or fiscal responisibility, we are not speaking of cutting funds to the basic functions of government (ie law enforcement, cracking down on corruption). I actually agree with you that it would take both community groups and the state to solve these problems.

    Regarding the women issue. I was the group Obama pandered to with his war on women nonsense. When a young liberal woman like Kirsten Powers is calling you out on that nonsense, you know you have gone too far. Romney lost the minority women’s vote, but not the rest of women. To argue that abortion was the reason for Obama’s win over women is I feel jumping to conclusions when you look at the raw data. What motivates minoritu women to vote Democrat may be entirely different than what the liberal media would have you believe.

    As to your ideaology, I am not familiar with it. If the emphasis is not on private property, freedom, and Individual Liberty then it is no where near Libertarianism. In fact, it is on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Quite frankly, it sounds like Communism. It has alll of its core beliefs. Please do not think I am demonizing the Left. It is not mean to state that they are neo-socialists, it is truth. Many of them openly admit it. I am only stating the ideology they say they have adopted.

  • timcooper62

    Runner…I agree with you, but I am not sure what outreach would have worked. Sorry to say, by in large, black people cast pigment-based votes this election cycle. Herman Cain would not have done it for the Republicans. He does not fit the political definition of black. His own race would have noted him a traitor or uncle tom.

    I am in Georgia and work in a company with a majority black work force. I have spoken with many black people at work one-on-one. These folks are typically VERY socially conservative, they believe the government should not be in debt, but tend to be liberal in the government gimmie department. When I asked them to at least consider Romney, you would have thought I sprouted a hand out of my forehead. Herman Cain got a similar reaction.

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  • norishman

    Actually, the numbers I’ve been reading regarding the election say Obama won 55% of the overall women vote compared to Romney who won 44%. These are the numbers that keep popping up the more I search… If this is true, that 11% difference is very significant, and it could be considered statistically significant regarding how the Socially Conservative platform affected the electorate (i.e. a causal relationship between Social Conservatism and less Women votes). It may have just been practically significant though (no causal relationship) – but with 51% in exit polling saying “the issue abortion was important to them” – the greater chance here is that it made a impact; we just can’t gauge how much. I would certainly like to see how that breaks down (pro, against) – but the web is vast and the information is scare, I’m afraid. :(

    I’m glad to hear that people across both isles agree to my analysis of how to turn Detroit (and other minority cities) around… But neither side has taken any action… In fact, I would say that the GOP here in Michigan have been regressive in terms of crime and corruption control because of fiscal conservatism… And the Dems don’t have control of anything here, so I can’t really tell you what they’d do about it… Either way, it’s just my opinion, so take it how you will.

    I do encourage you though to help me spread the word in a clear and concise way. That’s the only way to call attention to these issues, and finally resolve them. :)

    On a different note, I can assure you I’m no communist. :) Yes, Philosophical Communitarianism is the polar opposite of Libertarianism – ideologically – but it is not the same as Communism because what Communism attempts to do is compromise the importance of Freedom, Individual Liberty, and Private Property in society to carry out its goals (i.e. it uses force). Communitarianism does not forcefully diminish these values to promote equality, selflessness, and community-building – unless it is absolutely necessary (almost never the case, but possible nonetheless; it’s more theoretical than an absolute). I said that Communitarianism is like Libertarianism because it utilizes the very same things Libertarians value most as part of the solution to accomplishing what Communitarians value. The only notable differences are thus: 1) Communitarians does not define law using private property for intangible things only (because doing so defies ontology – the philosophical study of “what is”). 2) It encourages collectivism, as well as individualism, as part of society instead of only focusing on individualism. And 3) It puts extra emphasis on selflessness while still promoting liberty (we are free to serve, there are no laws against doing good, etc). That’s basically it.

    I find this ideology to be a very down-to-earth, and in depth perspective that also speaks about how knowledge is passed from generation to generation (epistemology) and how that can be utilized to build a better society. It also calls for better cooperation between functioning systems of society (like say, the federal and state Governments), as well as individuals, in order to marginalize the social benefits these systems (or people) attempt to gain individually. It may sound unrealistic (and a little hopeful) – but I assure you, it’s a very rational ideology (although I am an optimist), focusing more on the larger picture (society) and then zooming in on the smaller functions (individuals and systems) to solve the issues of the modern day.

    So, that is Philosophical Communitarianism in a nut-shell (still much more to it, though!).

    I realize that you are not trying to demonize the Left – but I have been going on to Liberal blogs for well over a year now; I have never once seen one refer to them-self as anything close to being a neo-socialist. There are extremes in both ideologies – don’t get me wrong – but that doesn’t mean the extreme in the norm. That is a generalization that just isn’t true – and perspective is my proof.

  • norishman

    whoops, meant to say maximize* social benefit. My bad!

  • runner12

    Van Jones, a former Obama advisor, is an open socialist. Bernie Sanders is a Democratic congressman who is also an open socialist. The recent Occupy movement was supported by both Socialist and Communist organizations, according to their own websites. Most people on liberal blogs will not call themselves socialists for two reasons a). They really do not know what their own side believes. They are the “useful idiots” that Lenin referred to. b). They know exactly what their side believes and will not dare use the term socialist (though they speak the talking points fluently) because they know it will freak people out. The former, I have more pity on. The latter are downright scary.

    Your philosophy is interesting. Though collectivism is not compatible with our form of government (a Republic). Our Founding Fathers rejected such a model and with good reason based on history. Your theory is based on the premise that man is generally good, with little capacity for evil. History does not reflect this premise.

    Secondly, it concerns me that there would be any possibility of using force to advance said philosophy. After all, who defines when that force is absolutely necessary? What kind of force is used and to what extent? Some of the most horrible dictators the planet has ever see used your theory to reel people in and gain power. Then they turned their countries into full-fledged communist, totalitarian states. The philosophy seems to be simply a watered-down version of Communism or a dangerous precursor to it.

    Fior me, I adhere to the celebration of the individual with love and concern for my fellow man because of my faith. That makes me a conservative/libertarian in political ideaology. I believe in small government, fiscal responsibility, and personal responsibility. I am also socially conservative, not just pro -life and pro-traditional marriage, but someone who believes a safety net is needed for those who are elderly and/or disabled. I just think the programs we currently have are overly bloated with too many administrative costs that results in an inefficient system to help these people. In addition, if we would cut all of the wasteful and absurd spending we could take are of the least of these more effectively without going bankrupt.

  • norishman

    As to the first part, I will not argue as to whether or not these individuals are self-proclaimed “neo-socialists” (as I don’t know, and it doesn’t really concern my input imo); if you want to judge them on an individual basis, that’s fine – and it is always up to deliberation to prove these accusations anyway (give me proof beyond reasonable doubt, and I may believe it). What I DON’T agree with is using a mere two people to represent the majority of ideas and values for 72 Million people. That is illogical, speculative, and generalizing in its entirety. As for the Occupy Movement, it was not the people of the movement who managed the website. From what I saw of them, the people were not explicitly promoting Communism of Socialism (probably some socialism, now that I think about it – but definitely not the Communist-kind) – although they were miffed at Wall Street for what happened (for good reason – I was too!). So we can’t just say they’re ALL Communists of Socialists because of two website endorsements… But then, we never really did find out what they were after – since they didn’t know really know themselves! xD

    What’s even funnier is that the people on the other side (on the Liberal blogs I go on) accuse you guys here of the EXACT (and I mean EXACT) same things. You guys are hilarious! xD You don’t understand each other, and you don’t communicate to one another – so there’s all this speculation and generalization in between about who the other side really is. The chance of an entire voting block not know what they believe in, is about as likely as the other block not knowing what they believe in… From experience, I can assure you that neither is the case; after a year of knowing people and conversing with, you come to understand how the regulars think; and it isn’t neo-socialism – that’s for sure. Then again, I guess it’s all about perspective. As a centrist, I find it hard to call majorities of either side names like socialist or fascist; for starters, these are some very serious accusations… Secondly, all it does is spread fear of one another; that in turn causes misconception and soon resentment – and thus starts the cycle of demonetization. It’s such a pity; you guys are missing out on a lot of great ideas, insights, and rationals! xD

    Moving on, to say that collectivism is incompatible with our Government is odd to me – I’d say it’s quite the opposite: Government is a form of collectivism. In fact, Society is collectivist by nature; living together and interacting is collective – so any kind of management of society’s assets by a group (production and distribution of goods included or excluded) is using collectivism. Therefore, Government is actually collectivism in its very essence! But – there are two types of Collectivism: horizontal collectivism and vertical collectivism. Horizontal collectivism stresses collective decision-making among relatively-equal individuals, and is thus usually based on decentralization. Vertical collectivism is based on hierarchical structures of power and on moral and cultural conformity, and is therefore based on centralization (basically Communism at its core).

    As Philosophical Communitarianism uses ontology a lot (the philosophical [more metaphysical] study of “what is”; reality, existence, and “the nature of being”) – definitions are very crucial to my beliefs. I actually promote horizontal collectivism before anything else – but I do think centralized power can play a supporting role in making that effort smoother and generally more effective.

    I did get carried away in my explanation and didn’t catch this mistake: I certainly do not actually believe that force can – or should – be used to promote the ideology itself. I should have made that clearer – my ideology is strongly against this. Instead, I meant that force can be used to gain better outcomes for society if individuals cannot be relied on to do so (thus being more theoretical than an absolute, as I stated). Take Detroit for example: both you and I agree that force should be used to end crime and corruption. Unlike Libertarianism, Philosophical Communitarianism rationalizes that force is inevitable with a Governing body existing – so instead of reaching for an unobtainable ideal (no force at all), or just dissolving the Government (as the more extreme versions of Libertarianism promote; I find that ontologically incoherent of societal organization though) – force can instead be utilized to maximize social benefit…but is still only a last resort. As it stands, you are ABSOLUTELY correct that the centralization of power should never be used to force anyone to think a certain way; history proves that never works out in the end – and it is against the basis of individual liberty – which while it may not be my supreme priority (as it is with Libertarianism) – it is important to me nonetheless as an American.

    I wouldn’t say that the premise of Philosophical Communitarianism is that mankind is good by nature. I believe that people are both good and bad by nature; there is no absolute here and people have the ability to act on both. As a religious person myself (a Lutheran who believes in paradox, much like the late Martin Luther), I believe that sin is very real – but that should not stop people from doing more to avoid sin. I also believe that the large majority of people have the intent of doing good – but whether or not they express it, or carry it out correctly, is another story because of the nature of sin and temptation itself. Thus, by working together as a community, family, friends, etc. – we can actually help each other make up for our own imperfections.

    I always like the example that if you take all the people who have lived and died on Earth, one could expect to find that truly terrible people like Hitler and Stalin don’t even make up a hundredth of a percent of that population. There are also very little people in jail around the world for serious crime compared to the current world population; I say serious crime as there are some people in jail for things I, and many others, do not consider crime (smoking marijuana comes to mind [for people ages 21 and up in my opinion]). Both of these examples suggest that most people are law abiding, and are not often terrible people at all. This is why my ideology states that – while people will make mistakes – the large majority of people will at least try to do the right thing. Therefore, it is in my ideology’s interest to explain to individuals what they can do to do good for their fellow man and society.

    Now, what is “good” or “proper” may be something people generally disagree on – but there are definitely some things that the vast majority can agree on (like helping the poor and misfortune – or being respectful and tolerant of different ideologies, lifestyles, and cultures). By finding out what these commonalities are – actually the very reason I go on both conservative and liberal blogs – I believe I can help use them to bring people together. After all, commonalities are the basis for any starting and sustaining relationships. :)

    I believe in much the same things you do – but I would say that circumstance is something I personally take more into account, and my emphasis is less on costs and revenue than it is on social costs and benefits. My take on that is that a Governing body is not there to be a checkbook (excessive spending), or a business (aiming to make profit, and then using that profit to invest back into the business with little regard for the factors of production [except price and quantity]; it isn’t evil per se – just the reality of capitalism); rather, by focusing on social cost and benefits, the correct amounts of price and quantity are determined and the money to back up those costs should then follow. To me, it’s more about allocative productivity (taking the money you have and using it to its best ability) over efficient productivity (a balanced budget at its lowest possible costs) – so having high administrative costs to large and complex problems (such as health care) will be natural. Of course, that does not exclude the possibility that what you say is true – and that should be deliberated as well. :)

    To clarify, are you “just not” or “not just” pro-life and pro-traditional marriage? They have two very different meanings. And what about systems to help the poor; are they not deserving of a safety net? Innocent questions are all they are – but I do think understanding one another is important. I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation – but I don’t want you to feel like I am taking your time… :(

    If I ever become a bother – do tell me. I don’t want to be that guy again…, you know? ;)

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  • runner12

    Not a bother at all. I ran a race yesterday, so I was a little busy and not able to respond :) .

    I think we actually agree on the nature of man, etc. That the capacity for good or evil exists in each person. What I meant by collectivism being incompatible with a Republican form of government is that it relies on the opposite, which is individualism. It assumes that the individual man/woman is the best determinator of his/her destiny. It is built on the premise that each individual is responsible for his or herself. The government is simply there to perform limited functions, not to morph into a nanny state.

    This brings me to the next point, which is the role of government. Libertarians, even radical ones, do not believe in absolving government. Those people are Anarchists (see OWS crowd). (On a side note, OWS encouraged and received endorsements from the Socialist organizations. That is a blight on the movement and does characterize the movement. After all, what if the Tea Party came out and courted the KKK? People would freak, and rightly so). In our form of government,the belief is that there is a need for some sort of Federal Government, but in a limited fashion. That role being national defense, whether that be at home or abroad ( aka, military, police, etc), enforcement of laws, and a balance three-branched government that prevents one branch from gaining too much power. The rest of the decisions not specified in our Founding Documents were left up to states. These are the positions most Conservatives hold.

    As far as taking care of the poor, our Founding Fathers relied on religious insitutions to do this. For over one hundred years this was effective. Unfortunately, due to some abdication of that role by the Church and some pushing out by the state, this ceased to exist. That is a whole other topic that could be discussed at length, but I will leave it at that for now.

    What I meant by not just pro-life and pro-traditional marriage, is that there are other social/moral positions that I hold. As I stated, I do believe in a safety net for the elderly and disabled. These are the least of these and deserve compassion. As for the poor, I am all for supporting programs that genuinely help people get out of poverty. Unfortunately, most governmeng programs do not do this. Have you ever spoken to anyone who lives in government housing? The whole thing is a corrupt racket run by people who havd no interest in helping people get out of poverty. Because if they did, they would be out of a job. It is shameful. People are better off giving to non-for-profits/religious organizations who actually help people.

    As for characterizing each side, it would be nice if we could find common ground. But the reality is that each side has a fundamental difference in belief of what the role of government should be. Conservatives cannot stand to see big, bloated programs that do not help people at all that add to our debt daily. It is awful for us to see government waste tax-payer money on silly studies and just plain incompetence. Note I am using the word Conservative and not Republicans. There are far too many Republicans who are for wasteful spending and big government, the Democrats cannot take all of the blame for it. Unfortunately though, the Democrats have silenced their more moderate members (Blue Dogs) and have taken a hard shift to the Left. They want more government, their pundits opine that the 1st Amendment should be more restrictive. They have adopted neo-socialist beliefs. Once again, this is not a name to call them. It is simply a description of their philosophy. The sad part is, that most of them do not even know it.

  • norishman

    I’m very glad you asked this. :) What these people vote on is whom they think will help the situation the best. It’s not that they vote for or against social conservatism – they merely have much greater concerns (i.e. priorities) so it doesn’t resonate with them as well as it would others (even if they ARE socially conservative themselves).

    Yes, Detroit is in a mess – but few people actually grasp the size and scope of the problem; for starters, education is a sham: there are gang wars with shoot-outs on campus even during school hours; the large majority of 1st-12th graders can barely read – let alone do things like algebra; you have poorly trained and even UNCERTIFIED people running the schools (which is illegal, but whatever); high schools are switching to charters (thanks to Snyder) and they hand over the cost of education to businesses who are making a profit while there are autistic kids in classes of thirty – with no assistance to the teachers (that’s UNCONSTITUTIONAL!; I’d be ok with the charters if they weren’t making matters worse…); the charters also expect teachers to take a pay-cut, causing a shortage of experienced teachers – then the charters hire fresh teachers who merely took summer school prep classes (to get a feel for the classroom), got their certificate and then come to these schools to teach kids who act like it’s animal-house (they soon regret their decision too; they had no idea what they were getting into in the first place). Unless this changes, everything else wont. These people grow up and can’t sustain a family – so the type of fiscal conservatism and austerity measures they’ve been using here are the last thing they need. The Dems have absolutely no control in any of the three branches of Government, so I can’t tell you if they’d try to help; history says they wouldn’t though.

    Not to offend, but there is only one word I can use to describe the GOP’s politics here; corrupt – and that’s an understatement. The inner city only vote the alternative (Democratic for the most part) because the Republicans here aren’t helping the situation at all… They’ve actually managed to make it worse, imo. :(

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  • norishman

    Hmmm… I find your analysis of the Republican form of Government to be fascinating, to say the least… Whenever I form an opinion on a subject (or get into a political discussion, for that matter), I always look to the standard definition of the words we use to make sure that there are no miscommunications or misconceptions about the topics we discuss. One thing I really do hate (to put it bluntly) about politics is that people tend to have completely different understandings of what certain terms mean depending on their political orientation; many times people disagree on topics simply because they aren’t using the same sense of the same words! To remedy this, I tend to state the straight-from-the-book definition so we can agree about what we are talking about – first and foremost:

    As it stands, Republican Government is “a Government system where citizens elect their representatives.” This definition has nothing to do with individualism, or even a preconceived notion of it. In fact, it’s actually closer to horizontal collectivism when you consider that the founders wanted a society of “free and equal men.” :P (see my earlier comment if you don’t remember the definition of horizontal collectivism)

    For me, to say that the Republican form of Government has a premise of individualism construes the literal meaning of the word and is just an ideologically-based assertion (not ontologically correct). I can’t argue that individualism is bad, as I agree with the idea that people have a profound ability to influence their own destiny; but that is a Conservative value (and even then, not all Conservatives believe it as some are Calvinists) – not the idea of Republicanism [people electing their representatives through democratic means].

    You may say that this definition lacks the context of the times it was created in – so I will admit that some of the founding fathers had your very idea in mind; but I say “some” because little people appreciate how distinctly different the commonly-known founding fathers actually were in terms of philosophy and ideology. The truth is that the convention lasted almost FOUR MONTHS – that would be FAR too much time for people who all agreed on the exact same things to deliberate and write the Constitution. They did not all agree to that exact same notions on many topics (including the role and size of Government, among other things) – and in fact had to compromise and hold majority votes on many controversial topics (such as the 3/5ths compromise). Much the same, they were not all Christians (only 28 of the 41 were Protestants, some of the best known were theistic rationalists [much like myself], and many were Deists), not all were abolitionists, and not all were even of English decent! All it goes to show that, even now, we are still trying to to answer the two questions our founders had to wrestle with: who Governs, and to what extent they should Govern. We are more concerned with the latter in this case.

    What we can say, however, is that the founding fathers agreed that representation should be included in our Governing system; they made this very clear in the Constitution and in their personal writings. The point of representation (that I’ve come to understand by reading said documents) is that competing ideas/ideals now have a way to deliberate, and so the law of the the land – for every individual – can also be determined justly based on that very same deliberation and compromise – without it being a completely “majority rule” system (as some saw the danger in an “oppressive majority”). Furthermore, if it were only upon the individual to be responsible for them-self in society – there would honestly be no need for Republicanism – as no form of representation is needed to carry out one’s own interests to be self-sufficient on an individualistic basis. Even if you vote on self-interest, you are still contributing to the collective rules of society; which brings us back to my first point: the Governing system is more collective than individualistic. Again, I agree that people should be personally responsible – but let’s not forget the first, and most basic imo, function of the Federal Government: creating a uniform legal structure to society with respect to the Constitution.

    As such, it is hard to define what Government is “limited to,” or what is/isn’t considered a “nanny state”; the Constitution gives us a guideline, but it can’t be used “to-the-letter” because times (and thus circumstance) change which require different interpretations (Civil Rights) – also any restriction of freedom by the Government can be considered “acting like a nanny state” anyway (that’s what nannies do; keep the kids from fighting amongst themselves by issuing punishments for unsatisfactory behavior). In the end – again – it is up to us to deliberate and find what best fits our society at any given age – ONLY within these specified bounds; limiting our options further can result in under-adjustment toward the needs of our society – while uncapping ourselves can produce unjust measures.

    Both are equally unsatisfactory – as both of those possibilities result in a reduction of living standards; no one likes this – but some get hit worse than others.

    Personally, I believe that Government is merely a tool for our use to serve the people; if we collectively decide as a Republic (through our democratic systems [notice, not capitalized "D"; those are different words]) that a certain service or law should be instituted by the Government – then is it really a “nanny state intervention” “and attack on limited Government” – or is it just Republicanism doing what it was meant to do? After all, the Government isn’t some independent life-form that chooses not to listen to the people; it can only act on the collective decisions that the people running it propose and agree on (who are voted in by democratic means – therefore they collectively represent a scaled version of “the people”) – and we can use Government for whatever way we see fit (as long as it isn’t unconstitutional, of course – but “UN-constitutional”, and “Constitutional” are two very different things). Now, my ideology does stem from the basis that individuals know what is best for themselves – and they will vote for people who best represent those values. For example: I believe that the election we just had represents whom people considered will help them more in our current situation; it is not fair to argue that people were just stupid and picked the choice outside their own interest.

    Again, I certainly don’t advocate for “large Government” (as we should consider scaling down, as much as we consider building up) – but I refuse to say that “limited Government” should be an appropriate term to describe the role of Government; it is far too general (for my liking) and far too absolute. In this world, absolutes are much more scarce than most acknowledge…

    So please tell me: what does “limited Government” mean to you? (be as specific as you like!) I’m very curious to know what it entails. :)

    As to your point about Libertarianism – I can in fact assure you that there are Anarchist Libertarians that are DEFINITELY not OWS (that’s a baseless accusation, if I ever saw one; logically-speaking, if OWS were truly an anarchist movement – they would have been marching on D.C. with blades and fire-arms – NOT the streets in large cities and small towns with blankets and tents)… I’ve conversed with some [Anarchist Libertarians] actually; they are mainly atheistic and highly intelligible people who believe that everyone should just adopt the mantra that “Private Property forms the basis of legitimate action” and then no Government is ever needed again. Although I completely disagree with them, they’re not bad people – just a little idealistic (and very well versed as well). :) But they do, in fact, exist.

    I’ve studied the Libertarian schools of thought quite extensively (as it is the opposing view to my own – I feel the obligation to know it as well as my own), and it differs greatly over the degree to which the state should be reduced; Anarchistic schools advocate complete elimination of the state; Minarchist schools advocate a state which is limited to protecting its citizens from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud (usually supporting a military as well). Some schools accept public assistance for the poor, some don’t. Additionally, some are supportive of private property rights in the ownership of unappropriated land and natural resources, while others reject such private ownership and often support common ownership instead (there are indeed Socialistic Libertarians too). There are MANY different types of Libertarianism; Conservative Libertarians tend to be religious and are less socially liberal than their counterparts (as the majority of Libertarians are Socially Liberal and Fiscally Conservative), and, as such, are less inclined to the idea that “only private property forms the basis of legitimate action” (as that contradicts Social Conservatism; although that sentence is a recurring theme in the ideology itself).

    I agree to most of your idea of role of Government – except for “limited fashion” (see my 6th paragraph argument)…

    But I struggle with the notion that “the rest of the decisions not specified in our Founding Documents were left up to states.”

    For starters there is only ONE document that we derive just-law and rights from: the Constitution (amendments included). NO other documents left by our founders hold that power (not even the Declaration; all that did is proclaim why they were leaving Great Britain). Additionally, some of the founders definitely agreed to this idea (mostly those who became the Democratic-Republican Party) – but not all agreed (those of the Federalist Party). The problem (I have) with states rights being too powerful is that there are definitely times in our history where this idea has been abused and became an issue; the most notable are slavery and civil rights (universal suffrage, etc; not just for African Americans). I do not believe that any right not dictated by the Constitution should be up to the States because this will inevitably cause unequal treatment of citizens or the dissatisfaction of some due to the prevalence of others (therefore a “oppressive majority”). It has happen time and time again – from religious minorities, to ethnic minorities, and even today with sexual orientation.

    Also, there is very little that the Constitution that cannot be interpreted for what pertains to our individual rights – and because of the 14th Amendment’s “Due Process Clause” these individual rights are now applied to the states. Therefore, the states have to uphold those individual rights – whether the people running them like it or not.

    For example: I personally do not advocate that traditional marriage should be state law because there is nothing in the Constitution that defines marriage as “between a man and a woman” (we derive legitimacy from the Constitution), and the basis for that argument is that marriage is a sacred joining of man and woman. As the Constitution includes the “Establishment Clause” in the 1st Amendment, and the 14th Amendment applies the Constitution’s Amendments to the States – there is absolutely no basis for a state to make such a law – regardless of how you or I feel on the subject. While there is also the “Free Exercise Clause” – this only pertains only to an individual’s rights – and therefore cannot be used to justify such a law; no individual person’s free exercise of religion is being harmed by allowing same-sex marriage.

    For example: Both you or I can still believe in traditional marriage and be married in that way – even if same-sex marriage is allowed in society; it does not infringe on our personal rights with that to be. I understand that a collective group of people are unhappy with this answer – but law is not derived from popular interest or religious creed.

    I am a by-the-book kind of person (as you have probably noticed); as such I use reason and legal president to formulate my opinions as well. I do not mean to offend you, or your beliefs – I am merely explaining the view I take from an objective perspective. As such, I am not “pro-gay marriage” either; merely, I believe that all Americans are to be treated equal under the law – nothing more, nothing less. As it stands, homosexuals are not equal in our society under law – as long as they are not allowed to partake in some fashion of civil union.

    On a brighter note, I have not met anyone in government housing – so I’ll take your word on its condition. :) From the sound of it, what you say is highly possible – which truly a shame. :( I wouldn’t make the conclusion that all programs for the poor (from the Government) are totally broken; Again, let’s avoid generalizations – as there are probably some programs that help significantly. But…this does beg the question about what actually does help the poor. What’s your take on that (with Government and without it)?

    Also, what determines a “silly study” that is wasteful for tax-payers; I’d really like to see some elaboration on this thought, if you will. :)

    And what determines wanting “more Government” and “restrictive 1st Amendment rights”? These are also things I want to understand. It’s all about your perspective. :)

    And, as to your final statement, it is truly a shame that half the Blue Dogs were defeated or chose not to run for re-election (my question lies in why they were defeated in such a large volume; could the electorate be becoming more liberal?). Their presence will be missed… But I should note that, from my perceptive, the Right has also moved right too. You can’t keep blaming the Left forever – you won’t see any success that way, imo. I’ll offer my advice if you want it – but I can assure you, you won’t be happy with it. As such, I can still tell you one thing you can do:

    Saying “it would be nice if we could find common ground,” and then dismissing that idea – entirely because of your differences with them – is exactly the attitude that is stopping compromise. You’ve identified the problem – but you are not trying to fix it. You don’t need to compromise your values, you don’t need to

  • norishman

    {leaving off from where I was…)
    …be afraid to assert your convictions (what you’ve said so far sound’s fine) – so why not get it out? They’ll listen to you, if you listen to them; that’s what I’ve learned from talking to them. Even if you don’t agree – if your arguments are truly better than theirs you have to nothing to fear. :)

    But that’s the thing…are your arguments better than theirs? That’s what it comes down to; articulation and factual representation. If you can express to me what you have (back it up with a little more proof), why can’t you express it to them? But you have to be the “bigger man” in the circumstance. Name-calling, however true, does not make friends. :(

    I’m VERY sorry for the EXTREMELY lengthy response…I got a little carried away. :P Please, feel free to comment on as much or as little as you like; but do keep it polite. We can be civil about out differences. :)

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  • runner12

    I am going to be brief and to the point. I am not engaging in any name-calling when I refer to those on the Left as neo-socialists. I am simply describing the system of government they believe in.

    Secondly, I find it inconsistent that on the one hand you would extol The Constiution as the document by which we govern ourselves and then in the next paragraph state that you do not believe in the 10th Amendment (which grants all other rights to the states, not specifically granted to the Federal government).

    I am well aware that our Founding Fathers were very diverse, they were a reflection of the Regency periosd in which they lived. But you are conflating the ideals of the French Revolution with the American Revolution (liberte, fraternite, egalite). “Equality and freedom” were important, but not the rallying cry of the American Revolution. But that is another discussion. As far as a Republican form of government goes, it is more than just a representative government, in our case. It includes the balance of powers and checks on the Federal Government. These checks are in place to give more power to the individual citizen, rather than the colectivist government. Which brings me to my original point. Let me begin by saying that it is difficult for one to understand the American Revolution if you do not know your English History. Our Founding Fathers came from a monarchial system of government, with a feudal past. Very collectivist in nature, though the limits on the monarchy made it less so by the time of the Revolution. However, our forefathers were being denied their rights as English citizens and unfortunately the current system of government provided no real recourse for them. So they sought a system in which the individual had more power or equal power to the state. Thus the triumph of the individual over the collective, or at least the ability to balance these interests. When I speak of individualism, I am not speaking of a radical view such as Ayn Rand’s viewpoint. My view is more of a moderated Jeffersonian view. The debate of the role of government is not a new one, read the Federalist Papers for insight. I guess it just depends on whose viewpoint you agree with.

    You misunderstood about my OWS comment. The point was that most of those were Anarchists as the movement began to wane, few were actually libertarian. There is a difference in philosophy there. Additionally, while they carries no firearms, much crime went on in their circles. A cursory Google search will lead you to the stories

    For a complete list or beginning list of governement waste, see Sen. Coburn’s list he had compiled. Those on both sides of the aisle agree that it is ridiculous some of the things he has discovered the government wastes money on.

    Additionally, your states rights critique based on what happened in the Civil War is rather short-sighted and cliche. God bless the South, but few really believed in the principle of the states’ rights as a pretext of going to war. It was mostly an economic issues for them. The same can be said for the North. There were actually Northern slave owners! The abolitionists were the only ones who truly fought on principle, as those few in the South who believed in state’s rights. The real crime occurred when we failed to abolish slavery at our country’s inception. The sins of Old England followed us here and we failed to stop its growth. Had we had our own Wilberforce at that time, the Civil War may never have occurred.

    I am not a fan of philosophy nor a scholar of it, as its ambiguity can lead one in circles. I prefer history and science. They are more concrete, more absolute, if you will. So we may find ourselves talking past each other a bit.

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  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    “I think Romney (and many Republicans, in general) took it for granted that the Rep. base, especially those younger voters, would just “know” what he meant by smaller government or how lower tax rates encourage investment and job creation or why less choices in healthcare would raise the cost.”

    IMHO, that was a key reason Romney lost–he took too much for granted along the lines of knowledge among the electorate. During the debate, and on the trail every day, he should have followed all of his “what” and “how” statements with the “why they would work” reasons.

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    So far, Repubs have offered to increase revenues via cutting deductions, Obama now insists on both that AND that tax rates be raised on the people who are already paying most of our tax bill. In case it doesn’t reach into Canada (or Washington), the truth is that to a Democrat, compromise is doing things his way.

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    Well, he also said he’d fight to overturn Obamacare. That and lower tax rates would likely be enough to turn the economy around all by themselves. The bigger problem he had was that he didn’t explain “why” his actions would help better than Obama’s opposite proposals.

  • norishman

    I’ll try to follow your lead and be more concise this time…

    I get why you say you are not “name-calling” or “demonizing” the Left – I really do. You honestly believe that that is what they believe. I just want you to at least try to see it from my perspective:

    Personal experience – with real people – does not lie. For the most part, I find people of both sides of the isle to be pretty reasonable. So, realistically speaking, “Neo-Socialist” is an incorrect assessment of the majority of those on the Left. You can keep saying that they just don’t know it, but then I should have (and would have) by definition recognition (which, again, is what I use to determine reality because definitions are, arguably, very reliable indicators); but I didn’t – the definition doesn’t match…I have never seen them supporting the kind of Social Ownership that is required for true Socialism (the switch from Capitalism to Communism; just to make sure we are taking about the same thing) – and I have never met a single one that supports a complete “Government take-over” of the means of production in the US. These are signature marks of Socialism – and it’s not what they believe. Saying that they “just don’t know it” or “will take us there eventually” are speculative at best – and illogical. I (unjustly) assumed you don’t communicate with them often because, if you did, I personally can’t conceive as to why you would think that.

    On top of that, the negatively-connotative nature of “Socialist” is to be concerned with as well; we can both agree that, when talking with people who are different than one’s self – it is better not to say things that will upset them, or offend them (which, obviously, even I failed to do; I’m still learning that lesson, I see). Even if you don’t say it to their faces – they still know exactly what you call them in private… We can all agree that no one likes being labeled – especially if it is actually untrue; imagine if you knew I labelled people like you “Neo-Fascists” behind your back…would you have any ounce of respect left for me at all (probably not – and justly so)? They don’t respect you because you don’t respect them – and vice versa; at least, that’s what I keep observing… I know it’s what you believe they are – I just don’t find it true or constructive. To be fair, I say the same to them when they call you guys “Neo-Fascists” – but, in the end, no one wants to listen… That’s a war that I’m not winning any day soon…

    I guess a case could be made for both, admittedly – but it’s still not productive if we truly want to end the extreme political division.

    Yes, personally, I am hesitant to give states the rights to govern just anything not specified in the Constitution; I do not, however, believe that States don’t have the legal clout to do so. Then again, a careful reading of the 10th Amendment provides that “powers not granted to the federal government are reserved to the States” – but only if aren’t already prohibited. My argument is that there are much clearer lines about what is already prohibited than the states usually acknowledge when they make such laws. That said, I did actually give a logical, and factually-supported argument along these lines (it was about the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment and its relationship to the Establishment Clause in the 1st Amendment, as defined by law, on the subject of “gay-marriage”). In that argument, I proved that a state defining marriage as “between a man and a woman” is unconstitutional for any religious reason. But, if you can give me a secular reason for defining marriage as such – then I’d be more than willing to change my stance and advocate for that right. ‘Tis the nature of a Philosophical Communitarian: if it’s logical, it’s plausible.

    I’m having a hard time understanding how separation of powers has anything to do with individual citizens; there are only three branches of Government – and none of them are “the people.” My assessment of checks and balances is that they are merely to keep any single part from acquiring too much power. Although, I believe federalism is the word you are looking for to describe how the founders decided to give citizens more power compared to the Federal Government. Federalism is “a form of government in which separate states unite under a central authority while retaining limited powers of government.”

    We are indeed a Republic – but we separate ourselves from other Government systems with federalism (France is considered a Republic, but it still has a Parliament – just doesn’t have states; Britain is different because, in the Westminster system, not all significant representative positions are elected [the Prime Minister is appointed among other things] – thus not technically a Republic, by definition). The founders kept the states so that the Government was not completely centralized (vertical collectivism) – but they also recognized that the Federal Government would be really inefficient if it had to deal with every single little problem around the nation all by itself (not to mention gigantic). Therefore, the states were to be used to deal with local problems at the will of the collective people living there (horizontal collectivism), while the Federal Government was to be the glue that held them together; after all, without the Federal Government – is there any reason for the states to collectively be a single country (other than the obvious economic advantages)? There would be too much variation among the states and their respective laws for anyone to actually be willing to move from place to place anyway. And who knows, they might have even made their currency!

    The reason I supplied a definition was so that we needn’t go into details that have little to do with our actual thinking. What I am interested in is why you say the Government we have is primarily concerned with individualism (the modern kind, pertaining to “the individual”) when there is a significant amount of evidence that that was ultimately not the main priority of the collective founders’ intent, and its definition itself denies the claim. I don’t see any logic in dismissing, or redefining the definition of a word to suit a particular argument – but there is probably much more information to it that you have relied on to formulate this opinion.

    With that said, I don’t think federalism is specifically inclined to individualism (at least the modern kind) either. In fact, I don’t think ANY form or function of Government was meant to support individualism. By definition, individualists promote the exercise of one’s goals and desires and so value independence and self-reliance while opposing external interferences upon one’s own interest by society or institutions (such as Governments). So this is what confuses me:

    How does one erecting an institution (like a government) also think along the lines of a philosophy that is against the powers of institutions unless it was not the central focus of discussion? Remember when I said “politics is all about priorities?” Well, wouldn’t you think that if the majority of those creating the Government supported individualism as their #1 priority – then wouldn’t they have just revised the Articles of Confederation? Certainly they could have – so why make such a complicated Government system, thus doing more outside the interests of individualism? It just doesn’t logically add up… I understand Jefferson’s idea of individualism – but he was also an anti-federalist which (at the conception of the Government) was NOT the dominant political ideology of the nation OR the Founders. Thus, at the Government’s conception – even though Jefferson was the one who wrote the constitution – his pure ideology alone was not what finally emerged. Instead, it is a strange mix of individualistic support and collectivist views that became increasingly more collectivist as the debates went on (and continued to be so even into as late as 1825 – thirty years after the anti-federalists organized, to put that into perspective). I would personally argue that the nation has become increasingly collectivist as time continued (civil rights is certainly a collectivist idea). It now depends on if you think collectivism is a good or bad thing; but remember – there are two kinds. I assume you would be more inclined to support horizontal collectivism (I would argue that any Social Conservative will always have a tendency toward horizontal collectivism, even if they don’t realize it).

    I understood your OWS comment perfectly. You claimed OWS was an anarchist movement; I used a logical proof to disprove that. You don’t need sources to use logic; it’s a skill we all have – and one we all use often. I didn’t write that they were a “libertarian anarchist movement”, the argument was just positioned in the section about them. I separately disproved that “there are no Libertarians that are Anarchists”; I’m surprised to see that you didn’t comment further on that… I guess it was just a little confusing since it was in the middle of that section. My apologies. :P Also, there is a difference between “organized crime bent on eradicating a government” and “crimes due to movement anxiety”… there were also crimes during the civil rights movement; does that mean the supporters of civil rights were anarchists too? I’ve read all sorts of accounts from people of that movement – watched a few documentaries too; not a single one I observed touted anything about anarchy (although they did have a section about the crazies who were in the movement – but even the occupiers themselves rebuked them). So please, do not misrepresent them.

    I wouldn’t say that the state’s rights argument is just cliche…maybe it’s cliche because it has some truth to it (doesn’t everything)? True, the South certainly saw a logical financial issue on their hands – but let’s not forget that it was the states who seceded from the union in order to preserve their power over that matter. They foresaw the inevitable end of slavery when the Republicans beat the Democratic-Republicans by keeping slavery from extending into new territories. They soon after left the union because they were convinced that that was the only way they could legally avoid that end (to avoid said economic disaster, and other reasons as well). But if you kept slavery, there would be no economic disaster; therefore, if they only had the power to keep it – they needn’t worry about any other effects. That is what caused the war: the states thinking they could get away with leaving the union to preserve their interests – and one of those interests was power; the power to keep slavery. Interestingly enough, they actually believed that Europe would take their side (in the inevitable war) because of its dependance on the “King Cotton” industry – but no countries intervened or even recognized them as the Confederacy. They thought they had the leverage to win – and thus would not be subject to abolition in the end. It turns out they didn’t.

    I don’t mean to make the South out to be arrogant or pretentious, it’s just that political decisions – especially ones with serious risks involved (like potential war) – are rarely singular in reasoning. There were definitely social- and legal-orientated incentives for the war as well. Is it not appropriate to say that some Southerners fought in the war because they truly thought blacks were inferior and should stay that way? And what about the Jim Crow laws? If their primary motive for the war was economic – why still make laws that were legally questionable far after their economic interests were gone? In fact, having more people creating businesses and having a broader consumer base are economic advantages; why support segregation then? Most contribute it to bigotry left over from the Civil War (I recently watch the new Lincoln movie – it portrayed that aspect very well). So, again, it’s not like they only had one incentive for secession, or only had a single rallying-point to fight. Question now is which was the priority: Economic catastrophe? Or having the power to keep their very way of life? Both are derived from fear – but I believe the latter is a more human-like and compelling argument.

    I agree that Science and History are concrete subjects – but I disagree that they are absolutes; any scientist would tell you that our understandings are always being improved, and any historian would tell you that historical precedents are still being set today. So, they aren’t entirely absolute (though parts may be). Take women’s suffrage for example: before it became a legal standard, it was never a part of American history. If I follow your logic, at those times where it hadn’t ever been accepted, the history they knew would prove that women’s suffrage would never become realized as law……but it did. So it’s true that history seldom lies – but it certainly doesn’t depict the future either.

    I use Philosophy because it pertains to logic; if an argument is illogical, how true can it possibly be? Studies and statistics are good – but if one can’t organize them into a concrete argument that truly represents a subject – what good is that argument? Does that argument remain true if it misrepresents the facts?

    Without logic, arguments cannot be made. Without facts, arguments cannot be proven. But facts also need to be reasoned logically – because not all perceived facts are, in fact, facts. Take this page for example: the above article illustrates this example almost too perfectly…what they thought was fact was actually an incorrect assessment because they hadn’t looked into the opposing evidence enough – and the author even says so. Or perceptions of the world (priorities) often sway what facts we remember, and how we interpret them. Sometimes, that interpretation loses the original meaning and becomes disfigured as knowledge is conveyed further and further from the primary source.

    Oddly enough, the fact is that “fact” is actually subjective depending on the ideology one holds; you and I are perfect examples. :)

    My ideology concerns itself with Philosophy (especially ontology and epistemology) because facts, alone, hold little value when you acknowledge what I detail above. I don’t always need a figure to pertain if something is true – because all things true hold true to logic as well. But I’m also no afraid to be wrong. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

    I do not attempt to perfect any ideology – merely to increase the awareness of what things actually are, and why people perceive things differently (what political ideologies actually include, different assessments of similar situations, etc.). And I take an active role in making sure that knowledge is correctly conveyed, and unbiased fact. As such, I would never support Totalitarianism…ever. I understand the thinking that went into that decision – and I justly disagree with it. That will never change.

    I am truly sorry for my previous statements. I have no excuses – and I should note that I will not do so again (if I did it again, I’m terrible sorry again). Similarly, I am extremely thankful for your civility to me; the kindness though inclusiveness you have shown me – and the grace you have portray is truly appreciated. :’)

    So let me ask you fairly:
    How often do you converse with people of significantly different ideology?