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GOP Between A Cliff And A Cave

they have been weight and measured and found wanting

 

With only four weeks remaining before the ominously named “fiscal cliff” the White House made its official offer to Speaker John Boehner and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell:

Obama’s proposal, as outlined by Republicans, would purportedly trim the debt by about $4 trillion over the next decade, in part through spending cuts already in force and savings from ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Also included are $1.6 trillion in taxes and about $400 billion in savings from changes to federal health and entitlement programs.

With regard to taxes, the White House wants about $1 trillion in new revenue from the year-end expiration of the George W. Bush-era tax cuts on income over $250,000. Obama also is demanding that dividends be taxed as normal income and that the estate tax be raised to 45 percent and expanded to cover estates worth as little as $3.5 million — policies for which the Democratic Senate was unable to win approval earlier this year.

The rest of the tax increases and the entitlement savings would come next year, through congressional revisions to the tax code and retirement programs.

The White House proposal would delay automatic cuts at federal agencies for one year while funding other Democratic priorities, including $50 billion for a new infrastructure bank and additional benefits for unemployed workers.

The plan also calls for extending the payroll tax cut, or adopting a similar tax break for working families, in addition to extending income tax cuts for the vast majority of taxpayers.

In other words, in exchange for no spending cuts, no entitlement reforms, $50 billion in new spending, and a tax increase on the “wealthy” the Republicans will get bupkis.

From inside the negotiations the picture looks even more grim:

“Republicans want the president to own the whole offer upfront, on both the entitlement and the revenue side, and that’s not going to happen because the president is not going to negotiate with himself,” the official said. “There’s a standoff, and the staff hasn’t gotten anywhere. Rob Nabors [the White House negotiator], has been saying: ‘This is what we want on revenues on the down payment. What’s you guys’ ask on the entitlement side?’ And they keep looking back at us and saying: ‘We want you to come up with that and pitch us.’ That’s not going to happen.”

This is not a hard nose bargaining position. It is an ultimatum. This is how you do business with someone you don’t like, you don’t respect, and most of all, you don’t fear.

As I’ve argued here | here | here the fiscal cliff is much more a public relations gimmick designed to cause submissive urination within the GOP than representing any long term risk to the economy. In fact, the CBO says the short term recession that may be triggered by going over this alleged cliff will result in long term growth.

Right now we have the best deal we are going to get: real spending cuts against the tax rates going back to the way they were during the Clinton years. The only real issue worth dealing with is indexing the Alternative Minimum Tax for inflation.

For the past two years they have done little to discomfit the ongoing criminal enterprise centered at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. More effort has been devoted by the Senate leadership to attacking Jim DeMint than to opposing the Obama regime. The White House has taken the measure of our Congressional leadership and found them wanting. Few worse fates can befall a political party than to be neither feared nor respected. That now is the lot of the GOP in Congress.

 

 

 

COMMENTS

  • commonsenseobserver

    Ridiculous. There’s no serious commitment to real, upfront savings, and lots of talk about new spending.

    No more porkulus in this deal.

  • rightlane1111

    Yes Streiff…but how about this: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/30/us-usa-fiscal-offer-idUSBRE8AT02C20121130

    WOW…NEW POWERS….I guess he’s taking the lead from Morsi

  • ss396

    It is interesting how all of the fiscal data being tossed around nowadays is premised on an extended time scale. It’s all peanuts, so they have to claim it “over a 10 year period” so that the numbers are big enough to make it sound as though something important is happening.
    Didn’t used to be that way.

  • http://thecorruptworld.blogspot.com/ wayneinnh

    Submissive Urination – that’s excellent. From the Humane Society’s website; “In a pack, dogs [Congressmen] have many ways to show the leader that they accept his role as top dog and thus avoid a confrontation. One way is to roll on their backs and urinate on themselves.”

  • snit

    It is not about what the Democrats or the Republicans “get”. It is about what the American people get. Or, really, that is what it *should* be about.

  • streiff

    endorsing it is fine until we have to vote on it. The plan was totally bogus in every aspect of cutting the budget and very very real in raising taxes. Any GOP Congressman who endorses it won’t survive his primary and he shouldn’t.

  • jaykali

    I don’t know. I think when it’s all said and done this will be not as big of a deal. The middle class tax cuts are going to be extended permanently. I have no doubt in my mind. The rest won’t. The more interesting side of things are the sequester cuts. I think the Democrats might just live with the cuts as is knowing that they will never ever get defense cuts this big again. And as far other spending, they can jack it up later or wait until there’s a crisis or complaint ab some sort of funding (like security) and get the republicans to relunctantly raise it. In fact is all this so terrible? We talk ab “zeroing out” spending across the board and then deciding what’s really important. This is kind of the same idea. It’s dysfunctional but that’s what we got these days.

    I will still be more or less satisfied that the prez will own the tax increases. The spending cuts I am telling you will dwarf the taxes bc a lot of oxes are going to get gored.

  • jackm

    Of course Obama has no fear of the Republican leadership. Look at the Republicans’ choices:

    1) The Bush tax cuts will expire January 1 and the taxes on the wealthy (at least on income over $250,000). Republicans have no choice here.

    2) Democrats will propose a middle class tax cut and Republicans will vote for it. Republicans have no choice here.

    3) Republicans will vote for extending the debt ceiling because Democrats have no greater incentive than Republicans to cave in here, and letting the government default would be irresponsible. I guess Republicans have some choice here.

    So blow away the smoke, and the only fight is what concessions on entitlements are Republicans going to get in exchange for revenue above the $800 billion Democrats can get by doing nothing?

    And a very large amount of pretending.

  • jackm

    I’m sure that going scorched Earth on the debt ceiling will do wonders for the Republican brand.

  • WmCraig

    Do you think if Jim DeMint became speaker, Boehner would switch parties? Would we even be able to tell?

  • WmCraig

    I Still think the solution is to ask for something Obama won’t like. Say, spending requirements to restore Medicare Advantage, Making the conversation about who really is looking our for the seniors. I would like to see Obama twisted up a bit explaining he doesn’t want to spend money to restore something he has been pretending didn’t get cut. And how about an educational experiment. Obama is big on educational experiments. Say, target the top twenty-five worst performing major city school districts with a bill that would allow parents to apply for and control money in the education block grant funds. Call it the Reagan memorial education entitlement. Parents in these cities could choose to use the money for a school voucher, with the funds coming right out of the state block grant. No additional funds. Let Obama explain why he doesn’t want Asian and Hispanic voters in these cities sending their children to non-public schools.

    WmCraig

    from “Out of the Blue”

  • zen29

    Go over the fiscal cliff, and hand Obama two strategic victories.

    Cut a deal, and get a split victory.

    Seems like an easy choice to me. The thing is Obama has a lot of more than just “House and Senate Republicans” convinced of the fiscal cliff. He has a lot of Americans… a lot of Americans that our side – lets call them Team Conservative – need to get off the fence and voting for our side. He’s rightly calculated he’s going to use the cliff idea as a battle axe, smash us with it, and then pin the mess on us.

    Here’s the facts: we’re out numbered, unpopular and demographically cornered. Our side is old, our leaders come off as rigid and inscere, and we’re rural, white and religious in a country that is increasingly urban, diverse and not. We just badly lost a major election.

    And now Obama is going to serve up another defeat, if we try and play chicken with him. It may be the “bold” “honorable” “conservative” thing to do. But this is politics, not some ridiculous duel with pistols at the crack of dawn. It isn’t the smart thing to do.

    Obama set us up, and he did it brilliantly. The fiscal cliff isn’t a cliff at all. But if we go over it, he basically gets everything he wants: military cuts he’d never otherwise get, tax increases he’d never otherwise get, and entitlement cuts he knows we need but his own part would never give him. And then he gets to pin it on Republicans.

    But wait, it gets better! A 6 month recession ensues, we slowly recover… and Barack Obama becomes the President who got the United States far closer back-in-black in far less time than even the Ryan plan would have down. He comes out of it enhanced. We come out of it just like we did after the Debt Ceiling debacle: far worse off.

    The only way to live to fight another day is to navigate the traps and disarm him. Ask for unexpected things, make unexpected concessions and deal. Nobody will remember the “Fiscal Cliff” in 2014 and 2016 if we don’t play into his hands. Everyone will remember it if we do.

    Obama and his team are playing a masterful game, not just to beat us, but to utterly destroy us. He’s playing for all the marbles. If he beats us here, where do we go? He took our title of being the “trusted party of national defense” in the last few years. He’s going to take our mantle as the party of fiscal responsibility because he is, quite easily, painting us as the “party of tax cuts for the wealthy… come hell or high water. ”

    If he robs us of that, then what? We focus on social conservative roots? Congrats… we may win a few midterms here and there. Let me tell you as a 29 year old conservative, senior citizens (looking at you Aiken) lecturing young women on bodily functions is both weird and alienating and so few actually truly care. We won’t win the Presidency on social issues. Maybe we’ll win a Florida filled with old people. We won’t win a 2024 heavily young & hispanic Texas swing-state though.

    So we need to deal and we need to not play by the script that Obama knows all to well from the previous capitol hill drama. If we do, just pack it in… the only thing Obama will have left to do is lay a bundle of flowers on the Modern-Conservative Gravestone.

  • Bill S

    got a mouse in your pocket?

  • commonsenseobserver

    Perhaps we could exploit the divisions among the Democrats regarding Obama’s insistence on doubling the number of family farms and businesses hit by the death tax.

  • streiff

    that is nonsensical. The CBO would score the proposal and inevitably find that this would increase revenue. That would support it.

  • redstatefail

    I agree with both of you: Republicans don’t really have leverage. Not so much because the President has tons, but because their position is unsustainable. It’s impossible to maintain the argument that you won’t make permanent tax cuts for 98% of the population, even if you think its disasterous to raise the taxes of the other 2%. I also don’t see leverage with the debt ceiling. It’s like “Blazing Saddles”…. stop me before I shoot myself. Someone will relatively quickly tell you to shoot yourself.

  • streiff

    what is the bill number?

  • redstatefail

    I’m not trolling. I think this is a very reasonable forum… one in which I find myself oddly in agreement with some of the commentary. I agree with trolling bans, so if you think me doing so, let me know.

  • redstatefail

    I’m Tom. For the record, I agree with your personal assessment of the situation and the correct response. Admittedly, I agree for different reasons, but I agree nonetheless. One of the reasons is, I think we need entitlement reform, so I’d like to see right-of-center activists persuade Republicans to make the right tactical steps so that can be accomplished. Please take my commentary in this particular thread with the respect it is intended.

  • streiff

    acknowledged. From eight years of experience, though, this very rarely works out well.

  • redstatefail

    But when it does, its does so because the “guest” respects the purposes of the forum. I’m the guest. When I rarely pop up, it will be to agree, or to disagree in a tactical and non-offensive fashion. I’m also going to change my log in….. it’s disrespectful in retrospect. Cheers.

  • jimmyneutron

    Many good comments here. Just as important as having a good strategy for negotiating with this brood of vipers is to have 1) A simple set of talking points that all Republicans use and go back to no matter what the question – especially all of the gotcha questions that the MSM will be asking in their continuing attempts to brand any one on our side as a nazi or worse and 2) we really, really need a spokeman or two (leader if you will) who is truely a conservative and can speak the talking points from 1) above with passion and clarity so that we can offset and fight the continuing barrage from the MSM and the statists of both parties.
    President Reagan was just such a spokesman. Between 76 and 80 he was very active speaking and especially writing – constantly hammering home conservative ideals in a format and language that average people could understand and in a way that applied to their lives.
    We have the facts on our side, we are fighting for what is right, we are the side that really does care about the working class in that we do not want to chain them to dependency on the ruling class but instead want to give them the freedom and opportunity to grow and earn as much as they are willing to work for, we are on the side of individual liberty, we are on the side of economic responsibility, etc. IOW – WE are right and THEY are most assuredly wrong and we need people who are not afraid to say that at every opportunity and who can say it without tripping over their tongues.

  • plh

    This response conjures up images that are so disturbing on so many levels. About as disturbing to me is the spectre (not British, but I like spelling it that way) of compromise (yet again) with those that have done our nation so much harm. We’ve seen how well that has worked out – NOT. If the nation’s future is truly of paramount importance to us, we must stake out our position and not yield whatever the consequences. If keeping the Republican Party viable (whatever that means anymore) or shielded from media criticism (yeah, right) is the goal, then we should still stake out our position, but when it becomes untenable, then let any bill we deem harmful pass with Democrat votes only. No more “go along to get along.” We must stop blurring the distinctions between our side and theirs and constantly giving them cover. Otherwise, anything we do becomes totally irrelevant.

  • jaykali

    Ya I agree as well. I have listened to literally a million new shows on TV and satellite radio “fret” that we’ll go “over the cliff” – this is just sensationalism. The Republicans were able to force an extension of all of the tax cuts in 2010 bc they had the wind at their back and Obama was really. Thems days are over. We conservatives are “wishing” that Republicans have leverage they don’t have.

    Republicans should resist it kicking and screaming so that it’s painfully obvious WHO is increasing taxes. That’s fine, but we can’t blame them for not getting the top rates extended. They’re expiring. We lost the election, it’s just not going to happen. This is the left’s BIG trophy they get for winning the white house. They will get it.

    But now onto the debt limit increases. We really should be using those every chance we get, which is ALOT with this president. I agree with the idea that you cut $1 in spending for every dollar it’s increased. This was the idea last time and Republicans still got rolled with a crappy deal. I don’t understand why they can’t get a better deal. I would absolutely go over the debt cliff, bc WHAT ELSE do we have to lose?? Democrats are the ruling party and have more to lose in my opinion. They need to fear the “crazies” in the House. They will try to persuade the public that the reckless Republicans are going to keep your security checks from going out but we know that isn’t the case. I wish the House would grow a pair and play hardball on this. Until they do we are just going to get ROLLED every time.

  • davesinsanantonio

    But, it isn’t! And, it hasn’t been for quite a few decades. And, it won’t be unless we put much pressure on the so-called leadership to mend their ways.

  • davesinsanantonio

    Actually, I think it is not so much cliff diving as heading toward the cliff face with a parasail. Can you say splat!

  • larenzo

    Elizabeth Warren the woman that lied about being an indian to get a minority status this is your “principled person”? You have to have been mistaken.

  • larenzo

    The real fantasy was her being principled.

  • careyrowland

    This is the most realistic analysis I have seen from Team Conservative since this whole dam elections cycle started two years ago. Sorry, Republicans, but our posturing has painted us into a corner, and we are going to have to deal our way out. As Kenny Rogers sang, “You gotta know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em.”

  • dudette

    why can’t all GOP vote present and let O own the whole mess?

  • mhorner

    Sorry, both Erickson and zen29 are about as ignorant as you can get. We cannot in any way be a partner to Obama’s destruction of America. Agree with anything Obama proposes and it is certain death to the American dream. We elected Representatives in a landslide in 2010 to do one simple thing, drastically reduce government spending. Let them do what they were elected to do!

  • westcoastpatriette

    Erick had nothing to do with this diary.

  • celador2

    The reelection map looks troubling for the Democrats as their aging denior leaders struggle over to run again or retire 2014. The Republicans up for a vote have no similar conflict. All are running. POLITICO had a list in an article of possibly retiring Democrats who may stay on to hold a seat seen as 50-50.

    Levin MI, Lautenberg NJ age 88 today, Harkin IA come to mind as senior Democrats who have not decoded to retire or run. Tim Johnson has a challenger now as RS Diary reports in Gov Rounds. But the race that may give Mitch a new seat to work to regain Majority is WV Senate.
    Jay Rockefellar may not run again. He is anti coal but still entrenched. WV may be solid Democrat but Obama is widely unpopular just like his cap and trade. Shelly Capito R has a broad appeal and apparent support from many WV Republicans more to the right. She has coal miners support too and will take on the giant Rocky 2014.

    WV elected a state AG,Morisey who campaigned on challenging the EPA since the Democrats AG did not
    Erick is right on mark regarding repect and fear of GOP leadlers not exisiting in cliff negotiations. They are not relevant in US Senate but will be once they gain control of that chamber.Jim Demint will get a committee chair and there will be a budget. On that all will agree in the caucus.
    The road to that majority control is 2014 and the map looks favorable for Republican challengers to aging Seniors in DP leadership.

  • celador2

    What sounds the most appealing is the ‘adjourn’ psrt. The sooner the Republicans get out of this and move on to turf that can control or influence the better imo.

  • http://www.CoastalNCInsurance.com greg7564

    With that long winded dissertation, What do suggest or did I miss the solution you propose? Go over the Cliff is my Proposal. I am a Conservative not a Republican. We Conservative believe in making a decision and then communicating it to our supporters why we so fit to do so. Why don t the Republicans try that for a change? They also need to take a trip to the land of OZ and get some Courage from the Wizard. I mean no disrespect in my comment because you seem passionate but with no real solution.

  • streiff

    Erick didn’t write this I did. If you can find a place where I say we can be partners with Obama I’ll kiss your butt and give you an hour to draw a crowd. I’ll accept your apology now.

  • brojohn2

    And Boehner/McConnell will fold like a cheap suit. Neither of these “leader” has the necessary testicular fortitude to do otherwise. They need to say, NO, in a resounding way and then go home until January when the new congress will convene. However, I cannot see them doing that, I see them again capitulating to Comrade Obama and letting him have his way. There will be no spending cuts this year or any year of the Obama administration. The GOP has become the Whigs of this century, and needs to be treated the same way. The National Committee of the GOP is a joke, the leadership in the Senate and the House has become useless.

    I am leaving this party of do nothing big gov’t weenies, and joining with the Constitution Party. I urge all who want a real chance at returning this nation to a Constitutional Republic to do the same. It is time for true Conservatives to abandon ship and let the rats go down with the ship.

  • streiff

    good luck with that.

  • eddiethegeek

    It’s not about getting a victory or not. It’s about the long-term future of the United States. It would be great if the folks in Washington were less concerned about winning and losing than about what’s in the best interest of the Republic. Go over the damn cliff – it is the best course for the future of the USA.

  • swordofzorro

    He already did. He wants to unilaterally increase the debt ceiling. I say we pass a house bill that makes permanent the Bush tax cuts for under $250k and a bill to prohibit President from increasing debt ceiling without 60% approval of both houses of congress. Then adjurn and get behind the states fighting to stop implimentation of Obamacare.

  • swordofzorro

    The ultimate fantasy would be to put Bill Clinton in a locked room with Sandra Fluke and faulty condoms that government paid for. Then send Obama the dry cleaning bill.

  • brojohn2

    What I see for 2014 is another losing season, the entrenched leadership McConnell/Boehner will do everything they can to hold their own power, even if it means sinking the Rep. deeper into the swamp. I have been a party chair for 8 years and a loyal worker for the party for 20 years. No longer will I sit back and watch as the Moderates/Rino’s sink our hopes to return us to a Constitutional Republic. It is time for this group of Whigs to find their way out of existence. It is time for the Constitutional Party to rise to ascendancy.

  • brojohn2

    Gladly agree with you, a stainless stell pair would be best, that way they can wade through the bs and not get rusty (LOL).

  • brojohn2

    The Republicrats have gotten very good at that.

  • thetelescope

    America has been living on credit cards for too long. Time to “pay the piper”. Conservatives in the House and Senate should hold firm to the idea that Obama has regarding taxes: “If raising taxes on the top 2% is a good thing, then raising taxes on everybody should be awesomer!”. Let’s go off the fiscal cliff like Hooper flying over a river/ravine, dodging exploding talking heads all the way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0Y3A-zib-Q . Sen. Tom Coburn knows that there is plenty of crap to cut out of Dept. of Defense, without actually hurting defense functions. Just read his “Dept. of Everything” piece http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=00783b5a-f0fe-4f80-90d6-019695e52d2d . Jump to page 73 for the conclusion.
    It’s time for conservatives to start acting like conservatives and less like weenies.

  • rightlane1111

    Because I understand that this is considered an “open thread”…please inform me if I am wrong…I thought you all might want to see these two items..one will make you sad…the other finally caught on…I wonder if the RNC can use the people at the mall.

    Twas the month before Christmas

    When all through our land,

    Not a Christian was praying

    Nor taking a stand.

    Why the PC Police had taken away

    The reason for Christmas – no one could say.

    The children were told by their schools not to sing

    About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and
    things.

    It might hurt people’s feelings, the teachers would
    say

    December 25th is just a ‘ Holiday’.

    Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit

    Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!

    CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-Pod

    Something was changing, something quite odd!

    Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa

    In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.

    As Targets were hanging their trees upside down

    At Lowe’s the word Christmas – was no where to be found.

    At K-Mart and Staples and Penny’s and Sears

    You won’t hear the word Christmas; it won’t touch your ears.

    Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty

    Are words that were used to intimidate me.

    At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter

    To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.

    And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith

    Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace

    The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded

    The reason for the season, stopped before it started.

    So as you celebrate ‘Winter Break’ under your ‘Dream Tree’

    Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.

    Choose your words carefully, choose what you say

    Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS,

    not Happy Holiday!

    Please, all Christians join together and wish everyone you meet

    MERRY CHRISTMAS

    Christ is The Reason’ for the Christ-mas Season!

    And Now: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Vnt7euRF5Pg&vq=medium

  • adair

    Did any re-elect map ever look better for Republicans than the one for 2012? Twenty-three to 10! Not a whisper about abortion in North Dakota. And yet those voters took one look at Obama’s plans for not drilling oil in the U.S., not using natural gas, closing coal-fired power plants, and made the logical, reasoned choice: Democrat Senator.
    I can’t remember (already): Were any of the retiring Dems replaced by Republicans?
    How about hiring thousands of big, strong guys to go out and violently shake the voters before they walk into the polling place?

  • celador2

    For the purposes of this discussion the scenario I put forth was of winning seats of retiring Senior Democrats who may not retire for fear GOP will win. These races have their own dynamic and are not trickle down clones of Mc Connel thankfully.
    I listed possible seniors in Democttic caucus leadership retiring but other seats look good for 2014 like Alaska as a take back.
    .

  • celador2

    Presidential years are almost always a disaster for Republicans as more Democrats vote. Bush did defy gravity and picked up seats in 2002 after losing popular vote 2000. But Bush was a Republican and that 2002 electorate favored conservatives. He also had earned support for the Iraq war and enjoyed war time unity. Terrorism was a strong issue in which Republicans led

    Obama had a super majority and overreached spending as unemploymnet rose month after month 2009. His honeymoon with media remained but not with voters 2010. If he enjoys a long homenymoon term 2 we are still not toast 2014.since that electorate will be more Republican.

    Depending on the candidates and energy as an issue it is possible to win several in Senate given the more conservative electorate. IMO
    But we do not know for sure what will be the outcome driving 2014.

    . It is possible far fewer blacks and youth will turn out 2014. They gave Obama an almost monolitihic vote but that does not extend to support for all Democrats. Turnout will be lower 2014.

  • perdido

    The Conservatives ARE acting like conservatives. It’s just there are too damn few of them in office.