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Gun Control: WWJD?

Arguments for Gun Control Aren't Rooted in Reality

Obama Gun Control

As the gun control debate rages in America following the abominable events in Newtown, eventually, perhaps inevitably, the media will ask itself, “What would Jesus do?”

They’ve done it for years as it relates to wealth redistribution and Obamacare. Obama gave an entire speech about taxes in which he used Jesus for his justification. I’d wager that the tactic is designed to hit God fearing southerners where, in keeping with the caricature that the media has created of them, they are most likely to submit without question and accept the answer given to them by their betters.

Of course this vastly underestimates the target, but putting that aside, is there any truth to the idea that Jesus would deplore a concealed carry license or a mom defending her children from an intruder? After all, Jesus has some pretty radically pacifist quotes that need only be lifted from the Bible without context to sound convincing.

Such has been the case on Twitter where I’ve already more than once been the victim of “well meaning” gun control advocates who simply want me to be as “peaceful as Jesus.”

Virtually without fail, they point to Matthew 5:39:

But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

“Jesus’ statement here has to do with vengeance and retribution, not with self-defense,” says Dr. Thomas Howe, Professor of Bible & Biblical Languages at Southern Evangelical Seminary in Charlotte, NC. “You should defend yourself, but you should not attempt to exact retribution upon those who do evil against you,” Howe says.

In fact, Jesus’ comments on not resisting evil are a clarification of the Old Testament command, “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.” That command was directed at legal authorities yet had over the years become a justification for revenge by individuals. For many people, and eye for an eye became an opportunity to wrong someone who had wronged them. Within this context, Jesus’ illustrations, none of which have anything to do with a potentially fatal attack, provide new instruction.

As Howe puts it, “You cannot turn the other cheek if you have been killed in the initial attack. Jesus’ commands and illustrations do not concern self-defense against potentially fatal attacks. [His words] cannot refer to
defending your life since it is ridiculous to tell someone to leave
punishment up to God if that person has been killed in the crime. Instead, these illustrations have to do with mistreatment or being defrauded.”

Then of course there’s Matthew 26:52:

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Again, the context here is what is important. Jesus, about to be arrested and taken for his inevitable execution, is intervening with Peter who had taken up arms to defend his Teacher. His caution is an attempt to stay Peter’s hand who would surely have died defending Jesus against an unchangeable destiny. Peter need not live by the sword, he must live by the Word.

Perhaps some people must live by the sword, but that means they will die by the sword. Jesus never says that living and dying by the sword was wrong, he simply stated the fact. Beyond that fact is the interpretation of those who wish to use it for their own purposes.

But of course, this information does nothing to persuade the anti-gun sentiment. No amount of factual data can change this embedded ideological position. Not even statistics & evidence that their stated objective, the safety of the public, is not helped by their efforts.

It has long been the position of 2nd Amendment advocates that gun control works against the public safety in that it leaves the law abiding citizen defenseless even as the criminal, unencumbered by a desire to follow the law, has the same weaponry and intent that he had irrespective of gun control.

Put in a modern context, if Adam Lanza was intent on committing ungodly acts against our most vulnerable citizens, no laws were going to restrain him. This often causes the gun control advocate to change their position from “prevent crime” to “lessen crime.” In other words, perhaps he still would’ve gone into Sandy Hook to commit the crime, but had his mother not been allowed to own an AR-15 then perhaps the death toll would have been smaller.

I’m certainly not against trying to lessen the devastating impact of an inevitable event. Once we go to war for instance, death becomes a foregone conclusion. However, that does not and should not prevent us from exploring ways to minimize casualties without sacrificing our objectives.

However, it remains a fact that some of the most gun controlled areas in America maintain high crime rates, and areas with more freedom to own a gun have a lower crime rate. This is an indisputable fact that often causes panic in the opposition. It defies what is “obvious” to them and thus they enter a state of complete denial and begin making claims that those who are pro-2nd amendment are somehow indifferent to the deaths of children.

There is simply no evidence that crime in general, whether the number of crimes or the extent of devastation, would be lessened by eliminating certain currently legal guns. Despite the absurd comparison that gun control advocates make to enforce their point, such as pointing to the illegality of personal tanks and rocket launchers, they often fail to understand the very weapons that they are hoping to ban.

“First and foremost there is no such thing as an ‘assault weapon,’” says radio host and CNN contributor Dana Loesch on her blog this weekend. “There exist fully automatic firearms and semi automatic firearms, period.” Dana goes on to point out that “assault rifle,” the description often used to describe weapons used in the Sandy Hook attack, technically doesn’t exist either, saying the term is a Nazi invention. “[The] Nazi invention (Sturmgewehr) fully named Sturmgewehr 44, and is regarded as the first “assault” rifle. Firearms which shared the technical characteristics of Hitler’s rifle were casually defined with this sobriquet and it grew over time.”

So not only is gun control philosophically inconsistent with the teachings of arguably the most influential Teacher in the history of civilization, but the agents of misinformation that are pushing forth that narrative are woefully uniformed on the subject.

“Even the weapons in Adam Lanza’s possession aren’t being described correctly,” Loesch says. “Anyone claiming that it was [an assault rifle] is insisting that Lanza’s weapon was a military-grade rifle capable of selective fire, meaning, it has the giggle-switch to kick it from semi-automatic to fully automatic. I’ve shot so-called ‘assault rifles’ and I own semi-automatics. They are not the same.”

The gun control proponent becomes quite unhinged at the notion when challenged on these facts. Observe for instance, Ben Shapiro, author of the recently released book Bullies: How the Left’s Culture of Fear and Intimidation Silences Americans, who very calmly & rationally obliterates Piers Morgan, television commentator hailing from Great Britain and self-appointed General Cornwallis, bent on repeating the disarming of America that had failed so miserably 200 years ago.

As Shapiro points out multiple times in the interview, the philosophically consistent position of the anti-gun advocate is to ban all firearms. The vast majority of crime is not committed with the so-called “assault rifles,” it is committed with handguns. If the concern is ending that type of crime through banning, then perhaps the left should reflect on why they would stop at these more powerful weapons.

Gun control proponents need to stop hiding behind Jesus, who very clearly was not advocating for or against a disarmed public (some would argue he was a proponent of concealed carry given that his desire for his disciples to carry swords was even more important to Him than His desire for them to have clothes as seen in Luke 22:36).

They need to stop hiding behind scary names like “assault weapons” since “assault” is an action, not a weapon, and that action requires a human operator.

Gun control advocates claim they want an honest debate, but that won’t happen until they admit what they’re really after: full violation of the 2nd amendment and an end to gun ownership in America.

Of course, we can’t allow that to happen because, as one person on twitter put it, “Without the 2nd Amendment, the Constitution is just a wishlist.”

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COMMENTS

  • http://www.bohnetlaw.com rightappeal

    Nice argument, but I think it misunderstands the reason why Obama quotes Jesus. I suspect that it is not so much to persuade Christians to change their minds about gun control (or other issues where he makes religious arguments), but to provide an excuse for Christians to vote against their consciences on abortion and other issues on which they agree with Republicans.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Preach it, brother!

  • garret5

    Aside from Daddy-O actually telling us that he was wrong all along and that he really doesn’t want to add any gun grabbing laws, by legislature or decree, I fail to see how being a gentleman and wait until he’s actually done it will help anything. I agree that calling comparing him to Hitler can easily be misconstrued and would certainly alleviate credibility on our side, but I am freaking out. Right now.

  • kipling

    As someone who regularly quotes the Bible, I take a little umbrage at your contention that it is the last refuge of scoundrels. : ) However, I think I know what you mean.

  • http://www.bigcontrarian.com Jack

    Go find a puppy, garrett. Cuddle that puppy. Cuddle it with all the cuddle you can muster.

  • digitalboss

    Everything I have heard discussed as possible is bad. There is no such thing as a gun show loophole. They want to ban private sales of guns. BAD! They want to ban large capacity magazines, saying that I don’t need 30 rounds to defend myself. How do they know what I need to defend myself? BAD! BAD! BAD! It is all bad. Everytime they write a law, they are taking away our freedoms. It is already illegal to kill someone. Why is that not good enough? Should we make mass murder illegal? Ah, that is already illegal too.

  • Jack_Savage

    It is impossible to have an honest debate with dishonest people. That is the point. Democrats have never, ever once been honest about their intentions. Not once. This diary is totally rational, and anyone who is giving Demcrats the benefit of the doubt on this issue is an idiot.

    Your defense of liberals is really, really getting tiresome. I know you see yourself as reasonable and above it all and let’s-just-work-together, but you are either being naive or disingenuous when it comes to dealing with this crowd.

  • http://www.bigcontrarian.com Jack

    Huh?

  • romeg

    Gun Control is the domain of the materialist. To them, it is materialism that determines the success or failure of the individual and, hence, society; never the hopes, dreams and aspirations of the members of that society. Goods; some societies refer to it as ‘Cargo’; is the prime determinate of a one’s value.

    While I can find nothing in the teachings of Jesus that allow even for self defense I can find plenty that places a tremendous burden on the individual to take responsibility for his acts that cause suffering. The best example of His attitude toward defending life is the reminder that “Greater love has no man than he who would lay down his life for another.” The implication is clear: While he doesn’t specifically condemn the taking of a life in the defense of one’s own life or that of another, he clearly approves of one surrendering his life to save the life of another.

    My point is that one cannot make a case in support of any claim that Jesus would approve of ‘locking and loading’. While he may not disapprove, consider that he didn’t actually put on a defense at his own trial: rather he responded by putting his accusers on trial by turning their own questions back toward them.

  • MF

    Ben, you and your wife have had some of the most thought-provoking and Truth-filled diaries and comments of anythere I have read. This diary is in keeping with that standard. God bless you and your family, and keep up the great work!

  • http://www.bigcontrarian.com Jack

    There are 3 cat people on this site, I see.

  • Melody Warbington

    Trust your anecdote? Pot.

    There were a lot of so-called pro life Dems that folks trusted right up until they voted for Obamacare. Now it’s too late.

    I’ve had the distinct displeasure of trying to debate a liberal loon who thinks the pro choice position is perfectly acceptable and calls himself a Christian while doing so.

    I don’t trust liberals or those who defend them. Of course, I don’t trust most politicians either. I can’t think of too many things currently wrong with our country that aren’t a direct result of liberal thinking, especially the feminist positions.

  • http://www.bigcontrarian.com Jack

    I’m sad you see the world in such an uninteresting way.

  • runner12

    Ahhhh… You have to love the hypocrisy of the Left. Giglio holding a biblical view on homosexuality? Bad! Taking a quote from Jesus in the Bible when convenient to beat your political opponent over the head with? Good!

    Note to the Left: That same verse was used by misguided and very wrong people in the past to keep women who who were being beaten to a pulp by their husbands in the marriage. Misusing that Scripture has resulted in some very bad things.

  • http://www4.webng.com/rickbull/lostlucky/ rickbull

    And you know the true meaning of “taking the Lord’s name in vain.”

  • Bill S

    You’ve become tiresome. Ta-ta.

  • cheesycon

    yes. do you see that ad on front page of RS? “Obama wants to ban your guns!” good grief.

  • cheesycon

    This is a leftist red herring argument – not that I think you’re a leftist, but it’s an argument that is promoted by leftists so that ordinary folk will get fooled into the wrong arguments.

    The reason the 2nd Amendment is important is not in some replay of 1776, it’s if someday society itself breaks down. economic collapse and the loss of law and order are the threat against which an armed citizenry can and will defend.

    When you start talking about military oppression well DUH of course the 2nd Amendment isn’t any protection. BUT that is not why the 2nd Amendment exists. It exists so that we can police and defend ourselves when the government can’t.

  • Ben Howe

    Thank you so much and God bless you too!

  • http://www4.webng.com/rickbull/lostlucky/ rickbull

    Morgan isn’t old enough to remember Hitler. He’s barely old enough to remember Reagan.

  • Jack_Savage

    I was three when the war escalated, and eleven when it ended. Therefore I did not get the opportunity to serve in Vietnam. I have plenty of friends who did, however, and I rely on them a great deal when it comes to determining who is a hero and who is not.

    And according to them – every last one of them – John Kerry is no hero.

  • Jack_Savage

    “Yet there is an absolute futility to the idea that a group of citizens
    armed with even the most destructive of guns available on the market
    would stand a chance against a government with, you know…nukes.”

    Figure it out.

  • http://www4.webng.com/rickbull/lostlucky/ rickbull

    Your dismissal of the tyranny argument presupposes that *all* of the military personnel will side with government over their fellow citizens. Like our own Civil War of the 19th century, the rise of tyranny will be a time of *choosing sides.*

  • Ausonius

    Heh-heh! :) Yes, in political debates watch out especially for the non-believer who quotes Scripture…like the current resident of the White House!

  • kipling

    Agreed. : )

  • kipling

    Shapiro did a fine job. Be wary of the CNN clips. They are heavily edited.

  • danilaw

    “Blessed are you
    among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should
    come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. (Luke 1:39-44)

  • danilaw

    Meow

  • PowerToThePeople

    Your grandfather was a very wise man indeed.

  • PowerToThePeople

    Dang gone Bill, thought you had decided to take a week long break on the Ta-Ta’s. That is one Ta-Ta that should have happened three minutes into his tenure here.

  • PowerToThePeople

    That is true Damilaw, but Kerry and his self proclaimed hero status has been debunked for years. And on the flip side of the coin, service or even heroic service does not give one a pass when it comes to current behavior. Jails are filled with heroic soldiers who have gone bad.

  • PowerToThePeople

    A) I served, served in Nam, but serving or not serving does not qualify or disqualify one from questioning a soldier, especially one whose service was questionable at best, weak more likely. Not too mention the fact how he acted when he came back to the states concerning so called crimes, atrocities, his self proclaimed lies about his heroism, and his degrading of fellow soldiers. There were atrocities in Vietnam, but Kerry had no personal knowledge of any, exaggerated much of what he claimed, and straight out lied about a lot too. He was and remains a lying b*tch who disgraced his uniform and this country.

    Kerry is trash, a liar, and a disgrace to all those who did serve with honor, dead or alive. And it does not take service in the armed forces to know that.

  • Hafeed

    Hold on, Piers Morgan’s “proof” that banning assault rifles can dry up the supply of assault comes from a quote in a letter PRIOR to the 1994 ban? Data builds up, the empirical case shifts in favor of Conservatives without fail. It is the nature of history. Debates can be theoretical, (see 1990s welfare reform debate), then results happen. I became a Conservative when I discovered Conservatives were right on issue after issue.

  • checkmate2012

    Did you see the other ad/poll, should O be impeached for Benghazi? No big U.S. guns for the ambassador or the other 3 men waiting for guns to arrive that died while fighting for their lives.Don’t be so sure and naive to think he doesn’t want to ban guns…just not his.

  • bentonbain

    When the government or anyone else comes to steal your weapons, know what God says:
    Exodus 22:2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
    Even Jesus said, if you do not have a weapon sell your garments and buy one.
    Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

  • davesinsanantonio

    They know what you need to defend yourself the same way they know how large a soda you should be drinking or what kind of light bulbs you should be screwing into your lamp or what kind of dog is best for your family. They already know everything. And, they certainly know better than you what is best for you, and your criticizing them just proves it. Off with your head!!!

  • davesinsanantonio

    Some people on the Left have also called for certain states to secede from the union. So what? And your argument that just because one on the left calls for something means that no others on the left will call for it is just stOOOpid! And, that is really what you are arguing without saying it. And, if you don’t understand that what their ultimate goals are then you are head-in-the-sand naive! And, every time one of our side does say something stupid, they do act as if we have all said it. And, to deny that is just being dishonest.

  • davesinsanantonio

    Yes, it used to be called salami slicing. They don’t expect you to go to war if they come into your house and just take themselves one thin slice of your salami. After all, they left the rest for you to enjoy. But, then they come back and take another thin slice, and another. You may object, but one thin slice is not worth fighting over. After all, you still have most of the salami left. But, eventually, enough thin slices later, they have eaten all of your salami and you are starving.

  • davesinsanantonio

    When talking about keep our freedoms, all issues ARE black and white! You are either free or you are not. You are either allowed to own a gun or you are not. There is no middle ground. The problem is not with liberal gun owners. The problem IS with those one the left who DO want to confiscate all our guns! Get that through your head. There ARE evil people in the world who DO want to destroy this country. And to pretend that there are not makes YOU the dangerous quisling who will go along with them for whatever reason.

  • davesinsanantonio

    No, it NOT! It is to protect yourself from your government when it turns tyrannical! In fact, that was the intent of including it in the original Bill of Rights, in England in 1689! And, it was in support of such rights as Englishmen that the colonists protested George III’s attempt to disarm them at Lexington and Concord. Protection against unruly mobs is merely a side benefit. Learn some history and you will not make these kinds of erroneous assumptions.
    And, of course the Founders could not envision going up against tanks and attack helicopters, but that is still the intent of the Second Amendment. And THAT is why digitalboss advocates we be able to purchase bazookas and RPGs.

  • davesinsanantonio

    But, I WILL make the assumption that Obummer does not trust that the military will side with him in his actual suppression of the American people, and that is why he insists on being able to have “a civilian corps as well trained and well equipped as the military”! He does plan to disarm citizens and then to establish a tyranny that will “fundamentally transform the United States of America”!!!!!

  • davesinsanantonio

    But, you hit the nail on the head! The Left do want us to be subservient. It is their fondest dream that they can rule over a subservient people. But, to do that they know they have to take away our rights to speak, assemble, and defend ourselves against them. That is why they are constantly chipping away at the First and Second Amendments. And when they abolish those, in practice even if they leave them in the Constitution, then they will attack and destroy the other eight!

  • http://daveslastpage.com/blog/ davegaffney

    If
    people are going to use scripture to argue a point, they should use the whole
    counsel of scripture. Kudos for including Luke 22:36, Ben. Hebrews
    13:8 says Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If Jesus is
    God (John 1), that means God never changes. So, thank you
    northfloridawriter for including Psalm 144:1, “Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my
    hands for war, and my fingers for battle.” The Bible is replete with
    examples of defensive and offensive violent acts, but they were not random. Going back to Jesus, how about the imagery
    He used while talking about the “strong man” defending his house
    (Matthew 12:29). I have read countless articles an opinions over the years regarding gun control – for and against – and it always comes down to the straw-man argument of “needs.” RIGHTS ARE NOT BASED ON NEED! For instance, Piers Morgan kept asking Ben Shapiro why someone “needed” this or that. Cars kill people as much as guns kill people (neither kill), yet I don’t need a car…I want a car. The same types of arguments were once used to ban alcohol…no one needs alcohol…they want alcohol, yet alcohol no more kills than an inanimate gun kills. How did the alcohol ban work out??? We don’t need many of our modern conveniences, but we sure want them. One last point… A tyrannical government (in the context of Matthew 12:29) is powerless against an armed “strong man” populace, which is the entire context of the 2nd Amendment. Now that I think of it, maybe I do NEED (not just want) my “assault weapons”… Folks, we cannot legislate morality…it’s a condition of the heart. Think Cain and Able…what was the assault weapon of choice in Genesis 4:8? Did Cain even have a weapon? Evil will always find a way to kill…

  • ringgo1

    Not too bright, are we?

  • soljerblue

    In Luke 22:36-38, Jesus also said, “let him who hath no sword sell his cloak and buy one.”
    Galatians 5:1: “Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made you free, and be not entangled with the yoke of bondage.”
    Psalm 144:1: “Blessed art the Lord, my Rock, who maketh my hands to war and my fingers to fight.”
    Nowhere in the Bible, including the New Testament does it say we should go like sheep humbly to our deaths at the hands of murderers. Extending that to those who would legislate us into that trap makes complete sense to me.

  • soljerblue

    Good post! Only one point to make — it’s Psalm 144:1 that you quote. There’s no Psalm 411.

  • soljerblue

    Please inform me of one war ever fought in the history or pre-history of the world in which no so-called ‘atrocities’ were committed by the forces engaged. War is, in and of itself, an atrocity. But sometimes war is necessary. As for John Kerry’s ‘decorations’, I refer you back to the swift boat vets who served with him, and spoke vividly during the 2004 campaign about his worthiness as a recipient.

  • http://www.plumbbobblog.com Plumb_Bob

    If I may make some suggestions regarding how to interpret the Sermon on the Mount:

    The first and most important element of the context is that it was delivered, not to the crowds following Jesus, but directly to His disciples. The Sermon on the Mount is the syllabus from Jesus’s discipleship training seminar, so to speak. As such, it is not instructions for all people in all situations, but instead expresses how Jesus wants His disciples to interact with those that do not follow Him. And his instruction to them is that they are to hold themselves to a higher standard than was required for the masses.

    The specific instruction in question, Matthew 5:39, is not a rejection of all self-defense. Rather, Jesus is encouraging His followers to look for opportunities to bless their adversaries in ways that will be disconcerting to them. It’s an evangelistic tool, in effect, and the instruction applies only to those who obey Jesus wholeheartedly.

    I’ve seen this in practice, when a good friend of mine who is a Christian rented his house to another Christian who then broke the lease within about 2 months. He was within his rights to take the guy to court and force him to perform, but chose instead to treat the man like a friend and take him to lunch, then release him from the lease. The fact that he did so does not make it wrong for people to enforce leases, generally, nor does it make it wrong for my friend to enforce leases in other contexts — it was a choice to be merciful in that specific instance. Quite the contrary: the validity of laws and leases created the backdrop against which my friend’s mercy stood out.

    In another instance, a Christian friend who owns a gas station had some kids pump gas into their car then drive away without paying. My friend drove up next to them at a stoplight a few blocks away, pointed a revolver at them, and demanded that they pull over. The kids were arrested — and were pretty badly shaken, too. Then, my friend asked the judge to turn them over to his oversight rather than punishing them, and he put them to work helping out poor folks for a while, with the court’s blessing. It was probably one of the best lessons these kids ever had.

    By the same token, Jesus’ instruction to His disciples in Matthew 5 does not make self-defense wrong generally, it simply encourages those who want to represent God’s character well to their neighbors to look for opportunities to show mercy when it might rescue someone’s lost soul.

  • http://www.plumbbobblog.com Plumb_Bob

    I do agree with you. But Galatians 5:1 is not about political liberty, it’s about how we have graduated from the tutelage of the Mosaic Law into liberty in Christ, where we obey no ritualistic law at all but simply walk in the Spirit and love one another. It is not completely inapplicable to our political liberty in the US, but the application is tangential and complicated. You probably should not be using it in that context without more explanation.

  • soljerblue

    “There are plenty of liberal gun lovers out there. Trust me, I’ve shot with them.”
    I’ve hunted with Democrats, I’ve competed in rifle matches with Democrats. I’ve even been in defensive pistol classes with Democrats. But I believe they are either delusional and lying to themselves about what their leftist party really intends for the right to bear arms, or they think they’ll be exempt by virtue of being politically correct. In either case, they are fooling themselves.

  • http://www.plumbbobblog.com Plumb_Bob

    I’d wager that the tactic is designed to hit God fearing southerners
    where, in keeping with the caricature that the media has created of
    them, they are most likely to submit without question and accept the
    answer given to them by their betters.
    Of course this vastly underestimates the target…

    Obama is not that stupid. Some of his followers are, and they do vastly underestimate the target. But the strategists at the top of the heap know they’re not going to convince the ones who actually know their religion.

    He’s not trying to convince those who know their religion, he’s misleading those who do not. The tactic is eventually to make the general population think of those who defend their religious liberty as “unchristian.” It is also to confuse those who are less certain of their religion, and to keep them neutral because they’re not certain what is the right thing to do. When he’s done, those who actually resist him will be a small cadre, and the masses will not only think that Jesus taught people not to use guns to defend themselves, they will think that those who do are the most evil hypocrites ever to pretend to be Christian.

    This way, when the troops go to round up those who are defending their liberties, the general population will not utter a peep in their defense. And even some who are Christian will be saying, “I really cannot condone the violence these people chose…”

  • rightlane1111

    I’m going to HOPE…PLEASE HOPE…that this post comes out readable…meaning, it is a cut and paste WITH SOME PRETTY INTERESTING statistics. Funny…media silent.

    School Shooting

    Prozac WITHDRAWAL

    2008-02-15

    Illinois

    ** 6 Dead: 15 Wounded: Perpetrator Was in Withdrawal from Med & Acting Erratically

    School Shooting

    Prozac Antidepressant

    2005-03-24

    Minnesota

    **10 Dead: 7 Wounded: Dosage Increased One Week before Rampage

    School Shooting

    Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant

    2001-03-10

    Pennsylvania

    **14 Year Old GIRL Shoots & Wounds Classmate at Catholic School

    School Shooting

    Zoloft Antidepressant & ADHD Med

    2011-07-11

    Alabama

    **14 Year Old Kills Fellow Middle School Student

    School Shooting

    Zoloft Antidepressant

    1995-10-12

    South Carolina

    **15 Year Old Shoots Two Teachers, Killing One: Then Kills Himself

    School Shooting

    Med For Depression

    2009-03-13

    Germany

    **16 Dead Including Shooter: Antidepressant Use: Shooter in Treatment For Depression

    School Hostage Situation

    Med For Depression

    2010-12-15

    France

    **17 Year Old with Sword Holds 20 Children & Teacher Hostage

    School Shooting Plot

    Med For Depression WITHDRAWAL

    2008-08-28

    Texas

    **18 Year Old Plots a Columbine School Attack

    School Shooting

    Anafranil Antidepressant

    1988-05-20

    Illinois

    **29 Year Old WOMAN Kills One Child: Wounds Five: Kills Self

    School Shooting

    Luvox/Zoloft Antidepressants

    1999-04-20

    Colorado

    **COLUMBINE: 15 Dead: 24 Wounded

    School Stabbings

    Antidepressants

    2001-06-09

    Japan

    **Eight Dead: 15 Wounded: Assailant Had Taken 10 Times his Normal Dose of Depression Med

    School Shooting

    Prozac Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL

    1998-05-21

    Oregon

    **Four Dead: Twenty Injured

    School Stabbing

    Med For Depression

    2011-10-25

    Washington

    **Girl, 15, Stabs Two Girls in School Restroom: 1 Is In Critical Condition

    School Shooting

    Antidepressant

    2006-09-30

    Colorado

    **Man Assaults Girls: Kills One & Self

    School Machete Attack

    Med for Depression

    2001-09-26

    Pennsylvania

    **Man Attacks 11 Children & 3 Teachers at Elementary School

    School Shooting Related

    Luvox

    1993-07-23

    Florida

    **Man Commits Murder During Clinical Trial for Luvox: Same Drug as in COLUMBINE: Never Reported

    School Hostage Situation

    Cymbalta Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL

    2009-11-09

    New York

    **Man With Gun Inside School Holds Principal Hostage

    School Shooting

    Antidepressants

    1992-09-20

    Texas

    **Man, Angry Over Daughter’s Report Card, Shoots 14 Rounds inside Elementary School

    School Shooting

    SSRI

    2010-02-19

    Finland

    **On Sept. 23, 2008 a Finnish Student Shot & Killed 9 Students Before Killing Himself

    School Shooting Threat

    Med for Depression*

    2004-10-19

    New Jersey

    **Over-Medicated Teen Brings Loaded Handguns to School

    School Shooting

    Antidepressant?

    2007-04-18

    Virginia

    **Possible SSRI Use: 33 Dead at Virginia Tech

    School Shooting

    Antidepressant?

    2002-01-17

    Virginia

    **Possible SSRI Withdrawal Mania: 3 Dead at Law School

    School Incident/Bizarre

    Zoloft*

    2010-08-22

    Australia

    **School Counselor Exhibits Bizarre Behavior: Became Manic On Zoloft

    School/Assault

    Antidepressant

    2009-11-04

    California

    **School Custodian Assaults Student & Principal: Had Manic Reaction From Depression Med

    School Shooting

    Prozac Antidepressant

    1992-01-30

    Michigan

    **School Teacher Shoots & Kills His Superintendent at School

    School Shooting Threats

    Celexa Antidepressant

    2010-01-25

    Virginia

    **Senior in High School Theatens to Kill 4 Classmates: Facebook Involved: Bail Denied

    School Violence/Murder

    Antidepressants*

    1998-05-04

    New York

    **Sheriff’s Deputy Shoots his Wife in an Elementary School

    School Knifing/Murder

    Meds For Depression & ADHD

    2010-04-28

    Massachusetts

    **Sixteen Year Old Kills 15 Year Old in High School Bathroom in Sept. 2009

    School Stabbing

    Wellbutrin

    2006-12-04

    Indiana

    **Stabbing by 17 Year Old At High School: Charged with Attempted Murder

    School Threat

    Antidepressants

    2007-04-23

    Mississippi

    **Student Arrested for Making School Threat Over Internet

    School Suspension

    Lexapro Antidepressant

    2007-07-28

    Arkansas

    **Student Has 11 Incidents with Police During his 16 Months on Lexapro

    School Shooting

    Antidepressant WITHDRAWAL

    2007-11-07

    Finland

    **Student Kills 8: Wounds 10: Kills Self: High School in Finland

    School Shooting

    Paxil [Seroxat] Antidepressant

    2004-02-09

    New York

    **Student Shoots Teacher in

    Somebody took the time to put this together. I cannot impress enough on people that these drugs have very bad side effects…AND they are over prescribed. Instead of children/adults working through problems…they are put on anti-depressants. When the people withdraw or have a reaction…violence seems to be involved.

    Obama/Biden/Democrats SHOULD NEVER take the 2nd Amendment away from us..or abridge it. I read that if we have this taken, the Constitution means nothing. Know what…that means the Civil Rights Bill doesn’t mean anything either…or a women’s right to vote.

    Sorry about the format…but ya’ll get the idea.

  • rightlane1111

    Now about the Democrats ….the ones that want to take God out of everything…I find this contemptible for Obama to use Jesus as justification for anything. This man will stoop to anything….and darn it…we the people and the *&)*& Republicans are going to let it happen…just like the unconstitutional Obamacare.

  • polnick

    Hiring
    psychiatrists as tipsters will warn authorities before one of their patients
    goes on a killing spree; it will also help remove guns from the hands of the
    mentally ill. But any Heroin addict will still be able to get an assault rifle.
    Drug dealers keep them for protection against robbery and will lend the rifle
    to the customer that buys the most dope. Laws must be passed making it a class
    one felony for a drug dealer to sell a weapon to one of their clients.

  • cbartlett

    5555, digitalboss – It’s looking more and more like this economy may doom us to some version of a civil war, whether due to deliberate actions by liberals or total government inaction addressing our huge debt. My family has been preparing for survival in economically difficult times for the last few years. I see the distinct possibility of many folks, especially those dependent on a fragile system of entitlements, becoming very desperate under those circumstances. Desperate people, who would not ordinarily consider violence as an option, change when attempting to survive. We have a large safe full of guns and ammo (including a couple of AR-15′s) to protect what we have prepared.
    And in response to the comment above yours – I sincerely hope that we do NOT end up fighting our own military because we WILL lose against tanks and drones – no contest. I hope and pray that individuals in our armed forces have more sense than to support a President’s orders if they violate the Constitution. One of my biggest fears with Obama has always been the possibility of “marshall law”. Heaven help us.

  • norishman

    I’m not too sure that the 2nd Amendment was created to include armed insurrection. Mainly because “militia” back then really doesn’t mean the same thing it does now. We think of war, and armies–but back then they didn’t have a police system, so it was up to the states to make a “militia” (or emergency unit) to do so. The term “Citizen’s arrest” was coined from there since it was originally a part of British common law (that which was the base for many of the ideas in the Constitution). Giving individuals the rights to own a weapon would also let them keep bandits away from lives stock, and houses.

    They even defined Treason in the Constitution in Article III Section 3 as follows:

    “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War
    against them
    , or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and
    Comfort.”

    Just reading this makes me doubt that armed insurrection was considered at all to be appropriate as that would be “levying War against the US,” however way you want to slice it. Historical context can be used as well.

    The Whiskey Rebellion under Washington demonstrated that the new national government had the willingness and ability to suppress violent resistance to its laws. After the event, and an investigation, federal government officials arrested about 20 people and brought them back to Philadelphia for trial. Eventually, a federal grand jury indicted 24 men for high treason.

    That’s about the best example of what the Founders believed in regarding this idea. I haven’t found any accounts among them that were against this course of action either…

    My guess is that the Founders wanted people to buy into the ideas and ideals of the democratic system. Telling people that they had the right to upheaval at any time would undermine the point of the entire system they just created… But it’s all up to debate still, and I’m not them so I can’t say for sure.

  • Ari

    @northfloridawriter EXCUSE ME! NOWHERE in KJV SCRIPTURE IS SUCH A NUMBER NOR theVERSE TEXT or even vague meaning as stated above!
    “Blessed be the Lord, my rock” and its uses are not in Psalms nor is there a Psalm 411 much less a number 411:1 or even Psalm 4: with an 11th verse
    FROM WHERE did you manufacture the numbers and word/phrase?…. It is just not even in KJV under any compination of the verbs and nouns.

  • cbartlett

    Interesting information, rightlane. Here is a link to the website with more background and links to the actual articles about each event. You have only copied info on the school shootings. The website lists over 4800 articles that link many violent events in other situations that also have ties to SSRI medications OR withdrawal from them. In my research, I also found a couple of websites that say that this one exaggerates its claims, although I found some of their arguments rather wimpy. I think we just have to be careful to say that not ALL people on these medications have violent tendencies but just the sheer numbers that DO should be a red flag to study this further, especially the effects on young people. Maybe some Republican should offer this possible study in place of Obama & Biden’s “19 point” gun proposals? (On second thought – we’d probably find politicians on both sides in bed with pharmaceutical companies that make millions on these drugs – probably never happen….)

    http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

  • PowerToThePeople

    Hey Ari, stop being a jackass, lose the cap locks. No one needs you to type in upper case even when making a point, Now, that being said,

    One would think if you are going to come in here and scream, you would know what you are talking about. The verse text that you proclaimed to be nowhere in the Bible actually is in the Bible. It is in Psalms, contrary to your screaming that it is not, and it is Psalms 144 verse 1. The poster simply made a mistake in typing and did not need your asshat reply.

    Got it? Good.

  • Burt Rochau

    You guys who believe that some sort of apocalypse/collapse of society is inevitable do realize that what you are talking about is both completely theoretical and extremely unlikely.

    Now, on the other hand, mass shootings are, you know, actually happening.

    Yes, I support more controls on semiautomatic assault rifles and semiautomatic shotguns (not an outright ban at the moment but I would go for a ban on further commercial sales).

  • kipling

    Your remark is incredibly stupid and ahistorical. I think the North Vietnamese government and the Taliban that is currently resurgent in Afghanistan would disagree on you assessment. Insurgencies are not won by standing toe to toe with an enemy that has greater firepower. The American Revolutionaries did not win by standing toe to toe with the British. They won by fighting a guerrilla war and insurgency.
    Your terminiology only demonstrates your ignorance of the issue. Please define an “assault rifle.”
    Second, the American people seem to be siding with the NRA. Their enrollments are up by 250,000, there are long lines to buy guns in most states, and only 4% of the American people consider gun control important.

  • californiasquish

    I watched the Ben Shapiro interview twice, and correct me if I’m wrong here, but he’s for:

    1.) Background checks ‘for everybody’ (specifically, closing the gun show loophole)
    2.) No guns for criminals and ‘anyone with a history of mental illness’.
    3.) Mandatory home safes for gun owners who live with criminals and people with mental issues, so they can’t get to them.
    4.) A National Database of gun owners, with the caveat that it not be public.

    I wish people on both sides could calmly and rationally discuss the pros and cons of those kinds of ideas, but I just don’t think that’s gonna happen.

  • PowerToThePeople

    Two comments and already exposed as a moron. You do not believe in pretenses do you?

  • checkmate2012

    It’s hard to have a discussion when the prez and veep state that they’ll take whatever action they can to impose their views BEFORE their so-called task force was completed, including bypassing Congress which is an imperial act. The Left doesn’t want or intend to hear rational ideas to fix real problems, they just want to push through their agenda to grab power.

  • Burt Rochau

    Not in this case.

  • Burt Rochau

    … The Taliban can annoy ISAF/the US military but they are obviously completely incapable of defeating them.

    I know guns very well, thank you very much. I would define an assault rifle as a semiautomatic or automatic rifle that uses an intermediate round (and a battle rifle as one using a full-powered round), but this is irrelevant. Let’s not argue semantics because you know exactly what I mean.

  • PowerToThePeople

    It was not a compliment nor did it have to do with your posts, pretenses had to do with you not disguising your membership in the Proud morons club. What you typed was just plain out uneducated BS spewed by someone with their head in their ass.

  • kipling

    Twelve years and the Taliban and other Afghan opposition forces still control the countryside. Once the U.S. withdraws – without securing victory – then they will control the cities as well. Who exactly is incapable of defeating who?
    Perhaps you know guns very well but semi-automatic rifles are hardly classified as assault rifles – even by the military. Intermediate rounds are also simply common rifle rounds used by manyhunters. By your definition, the rifle I use to hunt prairie-dogs is an assault rifle. Like Senator Feinstein, you clearly do not know what you are talking about or you are simply out to confiscate weapons.
    I know exactly what you mean and what your goal is.

  • kipling

    You really need to educate yourself on the Second Amendement.

  • kipling

    A question for the anti-Second Amendment troll: How is it that you make a comment and shortly thereafter it is voted up 13 points? Do you have multiple unregistered computers? Is it pack trolling? How does that work? I highly doubt that such a leftist position would be voted up by the RedState regulars.

  • Jack_Savage

    Tell me why you think he was a good soldier. Be sure and include the part about his “wounds”, the reports written to support his medals and the length of time he was in country. Also please tell me whether the boy he killed was shot in the back or in the front.

  • PowerToThePeople

    Ahh, methinks he knows all that, just funny what he allowed to cause his “conservative” mask to slip. Sort of like the idiots who claim to be on our side, but when you make fun of the fatty Michael Moore, then can not help but rush to his defense and in the process destroy their claim of being conservative. At least he makes movies, Kerry is just a goofy, lying, pu*sy ketchup guy.

  • Bill S

    Since you seem to enjoy bans, I’ll subject you to one.

  • checkmate2012

    Ben, you must be clairvoyent in this sentence, “…and thus they enter a state of complete denial and begin making claims that those who are pro-2nd amendment are somehow indifferent to the deaths of children.” Tomorrow we get to watch the prez use children as a human shield to protect his anti-gun stance and guilt Americans into seeing it his way. I refuse to watch such a disgusting act of hypocrisy. Great post!

  • Melody Warbington

    What’d you expect, PTTP? He started out talking to himself.

  • PowerToThePeople

    That is true.

  • danilaw

    That is pretty much it. I read the testimony and formed my own opinion. Those who were there know the truth. Those who use hearsay and bear false witness in the service of pride, hatred, or political ambition will be judged in the end.

    As for Kerry – I think there is a rule that no one French should be President.

  • Jack_Savage

    Yep. I just wanted to make sure he knew we had not forgotten.

  • rightlane1111

    Well, I guess I knew it was coming. It is not like I am someone who is all about guns…BUT I am about our Constitution and about the PRESENT TYRANNY of the country. Folks…there are lots of conspiracy theories out there…but, while this is still up…look at two of these. One is an actual clip from NBC that the rifle was in the car and was not used. The other is actual footage and interviews and information that I do question. One is short…the other is lengthy…but it worth questioning…because some of this makes (in my mind) too much sense considering what the agenda of this administration is.

    http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=2E10716E6FD870ADECD5461A6778F3AB

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKDT7XwgMMo

    There really are some legit questions here and NOBODY is answering them. It’s like we have Benghazi in Connecticut. How can people’s obit be on Facebook two days ahead of time?

  • norishman

    Why would they have intended the right to armed insurrection if Article III Section 3 of the same Constitution clearly states that “levying war against the US” is treason? They used this very line to justify threats of indictment for those of the Whiskey Rebellion who were opposing the law and inciting violence against the US. That was armed insurrection, and they put it down using a show of force (luckily the rebels fled before the 13,000 man militia arrived–with Washington, the current President himself, leading the way). That’s history that shows exactly how the Founders felt about this idea. It’s literally the only legal president on the books about this, so you too would be tried and found guilty if you attempted armed insurrection–even if the Government has gone bat-shit crazy. It’s a truly unfortunate reality…

    All I can say is to have some faith in the democratic system. Our Founders created it with faith in us that we would use it to avoid such ends. Even in the Whiskey Rebellion, our ancestors avoided using force to quell the rebels with negotiation and referendum (although they did threaten them with legitimate intent multiple times). They used our system to its best back then, and we should strive to do the same.

  • westcoastpatriette

    norishman, see this comment I copied this a.m. to read Madison’s thought’s re: the people’s right to bear arms against the feds if they turn on the states. https://www.redstate.com/2013/01/15/the-purpose-of-the-second-amendment/#comment-770031690

  • norishman

    There are three things wrong with using this to justify this approach, or even the 2nd Amendment’s intended purpose:

    “That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism.

    1) That part I italicized means this: don’t believe, or even suggest, that tyranny is upon us unless the Government is actually, physically, leading an army to attack its people (“prepared to burst on their own hands”). He then goes on to say that, although he doesn’t see it ever happening, he’ll address the issue. Right there is the flaw with this thinking.

    2) The argument he lays out states that the counterstrike would only work if the entirety of the public is together on it. Well over 75% of the nation does not agree with the idea of armed insurrection at the current time. This plan is DOOMED to fail if tried at this present time.

    3) He never mentions the 2nd Amendment in this passage. If that were its intended design, he would have. Madison was a smart guy–he wouldn’t have left that out if it were true.

  • westcoastpatriette

    What weak arguments. The very next sentence says: “Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely
    at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not
    be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the
    people on their side, would be able to repel the danger…”

    You simply are in denial here. Read the rest of the passage and he doesn’t say “2nd Amendment” per se, but he talks about the advantage Americans have because of the right to bear arms.

  • norishman

    You never undermined my arguments. Calling them weak doesn’t make them so. I answered this already; read what I and you posted again:

    You never answered my first part. An un-rebuttled point in a debate is a winning point. If you can’t disprove what I said initially, what for do you argue? I even said myself that ,”He then goes on to say that, although he doesn’t see it ever happening, he’ll address the issue.” That’s the very next sentence, as you just stated. Did you even read my response?

    “still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger…” That sounds like my second argument. The key words are “with the people on their side,” which the pro-insurrection people aren’t even close to having if you look at polling.

    He talks about the advantages, yes–but only as a collective people. See point 2.

  • westcoastpatriette

    I honestly do not know where you came up with the straw man re: 75% of the people being opposed to an armed insurrection at this time. That is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

    So hard to admit when one is wrong. (sigh)

  • norishman

    Where I got that from is simple:

    There is only a select group of Americans saying that Obama is a dictator, and gun control legislation should be apposed at all costs. I will not take a stance on the issue, but I think it’s safe to assume that those who believe that anything less than that wouldn’t adhere to armed insurrection over the issue, agreed?

    86% of Americans in general agree to background checks for those who purchase a gun. Do you honestly think ANY of that 86% would be for armed insurrection?

  • westcoastpatriette

    No one is discussing armed insurrection. That is my point. This diary and thread is about the 2nd Amendment. I don’t hear anyone (other than you) mentioning whether people are for an armed insurrection. So, it is a straw man you are using to deflect from the true discussion — which is the purpose of the 2nd Amendment.

  • norishman

    What are you arguing that the point of the 2nd Amendment is? The comment I initially made (that you responded to) was arguing against the idea that “armed insurrection was the reason for the 2nd Amendment.”

    The three reasons I posted were the reasons why that specific article should not be used to justify this position. My third point was that Madison would have written specifically about the individual right of bearing arms if that were its intended purpose. That is not the case. He talked about the resources we could use as a country to overthrow a dictatorial government. I agree that having individual rights to firearms make this more possible, but Madison never made the link explicitly, and therefore it cannot be assumed.

  • westcoastpatriette

    We’ll have to agree to disagree.

  • Ari

    Thanks for the etiquette reminder.

    Guess caps are worse in your book than somewhat vulgar animalistic ad homonym assault.

    Personally, I consider THAT as an offensive, street BULLY ASSAULT in print “gutter terms.’

    Otherwise, seriously, thanks for noting my error.
    Certainly we both should aim higher.

    I note you are frequently a volunteer posting vigilante.
    Perhaps you will like some of my other posts.

    We all have our good and bad days.

    However, even if you have CC permit, hope you don’t “Carry” on your own “bully” bad days.

  • PowerToThePeople

    Are you done crying. I am not the one who came in and posted all in Caps lock that a valid Bible verse was no where in the Bible and made such a big stink about a simply error in typing, so take your medicine like an adult. You are an adult right?

    But then again one would think if you are going to edit your stupid comment, you would have been adult enough to change it entirely and just say “Sorry for being a jackass, I now realize you simply mistyped the Bible Verse, and the Bible verse I proclaimed sooooo loudly does not exist anywhere in the Bible actually does. So am sorry for my asshat behavior, it will not happen again.” But you were not adult enough to do that and instead whined about my response to your stupidity. I think that meets the definition of loser, would you not say as well?

    And learn what “ad homonym” actually is before just throwing it out because you like the way it sounds. In case you and other forget what you original asshat reply was, here it is without your recent edit.

    “@northfloridawriter EXCUSE ME! NOWHERE in KJV SCRIPTURE IS SUCH A NUMBER NOR theVERSE TEXT or even vague meaning as stated above!
    “Blessed be the Lord, my rock” and its uses are not in Psalms nor is there a Psalm 411 much less a number 411:1 or even Psalm 4: with an 11th verse
    FROM WHERE did you manufacture the numbers and word/phrase?…. It is just not even in KJV under any compination of the verbs and nouns.”