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S.E. Cupp, Straw Men, and Missing the Point About Rush Limbaugh.

The-Haney-Project-Rush-Limbaugh

Over the weekend, an article in the New York Times highlighted the challenges that stand in the way of conservatives & Republicans to get the GOP straightened out.  I’ve written about our messaging crisis and the role it played in our electoral defeats as well as what I believe could help us recover and found the article to be a thorough investigation of the problem.

Overall, the NYT article was fair and painted a mostly accurate picture of our situation.  The article provided quotes from friends of the blogosphere like Erik Telford, as well as RedState co-founder, Ben Domenech.  Some of the opinions varied on which messages should be at the front of our efforts, and I can’t say that I agree with everything that those interviewed had to say.  That’s not especially unusual as I would hope that we can disagree and come to common ground to fight our mutual opposition and stand on our shared principles.

One of the interviewees quoted, columnist & MSNBC Contributor, S.E. Cupp, had interesting words for conservative radio icon, Rush Limbaugh.

“And we can’t be afraid to call out Rush Limbaugh,” said Goodwin’s fiancée, S. E. Cupp, a New York Daily News columnist and a co-host of The Cycle on MSNBC. “If we can get three Republicans on three different networks saying, ‘What Rush Limbaugh said is crazy and stupid and dangerous,’ maybe that’ll give other Republicans cover” to denounce the talk-show host as well.

The uproar on twitter and elsewhere in response to this quote was virtually instantaneous. And rightly so in my estimation. There’s nothing wrong with speaking to the New York Times, but it did seem bad form to highlight Rush Limbaugh as the GOP problem as opposed to the myriad of other issues that the other interviewees (including Cupp) pointed out were the real roadblocks to change.

Twitchy quickly documented the outrage. Some of it was reasonable, some of it was not. I can only tell you my take which I expressed on twitter that night as well:

 

Interestingly, the quote from the NYT changed when Cupp responded to the outrage in a column at NY Daily News this morning. (Changes in bold)

“And we can’t be afraid to call out Rush Limbaugh,” I say as an aside in the piece. “If we can get three Republicans on three different networks saying, ‘What Rush Limbaugh said is crazy and stupid and dangerous,’ maybe that’ll give other Republicans cover” to feel comfortable disagreeing with him as well from time to time.

In the original Times piece, the writer added the line “to denounce the talk-show host as well.” Clearly this could’ve been an interpretation of Cupp’s meaning which Cupp has now specified was to “feel comfortable disagreeing with him from time to time.” These quotes have vastly different implications.

Were I in Cupp’s position, I’d be scolding the New York Times for assigning motives that I didn’t express. Oddly enough she’s chosen to scold her critics who were at least in part outraged over the word “denounce” in the first place.

She does this by setting up the straw man that was thrown out all day in her defense when the quote first appeared: “No one is above disagreement.”

Most of the column is dedicated to Cupp pointing out that she is paid to speak to truth to power and that in no way was she calling for shunning of Limbaugh. Again, the quote as it came from the Times told a different story and Cupp, for some reason, chose not to highlight that difference. But it doesn’t change the fact that she’s still arguing against a position that no reasonable person (in other words, not some random joker on twitter with an anonymous handle) is taking.

The issue with the original quote is that she implied that Rush Limbaugh, and our supposed inability to survive disagreeing with him, is among the top reasons we are losing, or at least high enough on the list to bring it up in an interview about the need for GOP change. Rather than saying something productive like “We have to be able to engage in spirited debate and disagree without denouncing” she seemed to specifically be calling for us to have our trigger fingers ready to denounce Limbaugh for his inevitable “crazy” and “dangerous” comments.

That’s not an example of crafting our messages through the fire of disagreement & debate. That’s more like what one would do when targeting enemies and calling for triangulation of fire. This is not how we talk about our friends. And it is most especially not how we talk about our friends to our enemies.

And that’s the point that Cupp misses even as she explains herself. She can disagree with Limbaugh all day. Hell, she can make a career out of it she wants (she may have unintentionally done so already). But if you’re going to rage against the machine, expect some return fire, and don’t be surprised that when you go to the New York Times, they may apply motives to you that don’t exist.

That is what they did. Right?

COMMENTS

  • bradtidwell

    Exactly. There’s a big difference between a principled disagreement and a denunciation. That’s where the difference is- when Republicans are brought on to discuss disagreements, it’s always spun as a denunciation of the entire core concept of conservatism rather than a principled disagreement among rational people. That concept is lost on those who believe liberal principles in lockstep with each other.

  • jaydickb

    I agree. I do think, however, that the tone of disagreement must remain respectful. We shouldn’t “denounce” Rush or anyone else when disagreeing. Just state the disagreement and the reasons. That doesn’t seem too difficult.

  • macbookben

    She needs a nice, hot “cupp” of STFU.

  • omgitsatax

    Oh, You dont remember SE Cupp ? She was the one with the Penis in her mouth in Hustler Magazine and was all the hair-on-fire-rage on The Blaze. She is also a FAKE Atheist who states “Im an atheist, but I hope to be a christian someday (which is not a thing an actual atheist Could say if you understand what atheism is.) I noticed in this article things like: “this is not how we talk about our friends to our enemies” -which sounds a lot like manipulation instead of honest explanation of right wing views to the public. Rush is a Provacateur and He’s REALLY good at it. So good in fact, that He provoked the Country into electing President Obama to his second term. but go on… keep it up…. Democrats will win in 2014.

  • rbdwiggins

    No one of any intelligence would dare to claim an analogy between Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore.

    If you had chosen Ron Paul and Michael Moore, your analogy might have possessed some degree of credibility. Although they’re polar opposites, they both command an incredibly small but enormously delusional following and they’re consistently wrong about everything.

    Note: Messaging has never been the problem. It’s the absense of courage and principle.

  • dmart81

    I asked SE several times what specifically did she not agree with? Crickets and tumbleweeds followed. She was trying to sound cool, nothing more.

  • Bill S

    But you won’t be here to talk about it.

  • plumely

    I would like to add that why should we listen to some Journalist from NYT? And why should they ever think we would value their consel and advice on how to “straighten out the Republican Part?. Those Republicans that follow the advice of renouncing Rush are to be shunned by all of us here. Truthfully, if you are a true Republican and not a Rino what do you have to diagree with him on?(not you Sir Aaron I agree with your post).

  • abeldred

    Cupp lost all credibility when she went on (to quote Rush) PMSNBC. Like it or not, Limbaugh is a true conservative, speaks truth to power and is blunt. Many on our side are afraid to be so blunt for fear of what people will “think” of us. Well here’s a newsflash: if Conservatives don’t quit worrying about appearances and start speaking the truth we truly are doomed! Bottom line, Cupp may disagree with Rush, but to call him out by name and ask others to denounce in order to get our mojo back is simply ridiculous. There are many problems for the right side of the aisle…Rush really isn’t one of them.

  • clearasday

    Exactly. It’s quite clear in the full article that their new group, according to their own words, believes the Republican message is controlled by a few voices, and they want to overwhelm and drown out those voices. The fact that she then went on to single out one of the most talented and popular Conservatives in the nation, Rush, and tar him as stupid and dangerous, tells me everything I need to know about where her true intentions and priorities lie. Ironically, because of her youth, she doesn’t realize she is not part of a new vanguard for liberty, but just another enforcer for the status quo.

    There are no shortage of voices in the Republican tent. The problem is that too much of the public is treated to a distorted and false version of conservatism and its champions through the unrelentingly hostile filter of a media and popular culture dominated and shaped by Democrats.

  • irishgirl

    The left is just following SOP when they focus on something Limbaugh has said and consistently repeat that he speaks for the right and makes him out to be outrageous. But I’ve always been perplexed as to why anyone sincerely thinks Rush Limbaugh is the unofficial spokesperson of the right to begin with.

  • neolib

    Rush only hold “enormous” influence with the most conservative elements of the republican party. He is not influential to moderate republicans or conservative democrats, votes that republicans need to win. The analogy between Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore is spot on. If you can’t see that you might be drinking the kool-aid.

  • jyalai

    Rush is one of the most rational men in media today. I cannot remember the last time I actually read or heard anyone who could, or would, even try to dismantle his arguments. They just throw ad hominem attacks at him and think that is reasonable discussion. Most people in the media today are mental pigmies (no disrespect to real pygmies) compared to Rush.

  • Seedyrom

    Nothing wrong with calling out Rush from time to time, but will the left call out Ed Schultz or other hateful liberals like Ron Reagan or Bill Press. Most of the time Rush just annoys liberals but when he crosses the red line would should not be afraid to call him out.

    But liberals and DEMS must call out liberal media when they cross the red line too. I’ve already seen DEMS & liberals run from the cameras over Ed Schultz so we must persist. Till both sides take a stand we have a bigger problem than Rush. Protectionism is wrong so we call them out for refusing to call out their own. Rush is man enough to apologize and has done so in the past but where was MSNBC when Schultz used the slut rant? Not one MSNBC show called him out = COWARDS and SELLOUTS.

    MSNBC aka MSDNC pays SE Cupp to rant things that we may disagree with from time to time. But will SE Cupp call out liberals or will she carry the water? That’s the real question.

  • nobiggovt

    Have to disagree. Countless conservative democrats have converted due to Rush. Many moderates and democrats listen. One could probably argue that Rush has more democrats in his audience than any liberal radio alternative based on the minuscule audiences on the left.

    Rush also has given conservatives confidence to go out and discuss issues with friends and coworkers. In Rush’s years, we have controlled the House for almost all but four years, and the ball was moved in the 90s on many conservative issues with much credit to the advancement of talk radio. Why do you think the left attacks these guys with such intensity? Huge threat. Rush’s views are quite mainstream on most issues, with a few exceptions.

    As pointed out Moore is more of a Ron Paul or Alex Jones.

  • runner12

    I think you may need to re-read the diary. The author specifically differentiated between disagreement and “denouncing” someone. In fact, that was the point of the piece. Disagreement is fine, but calling on others to “denounce” someone and saying their statements are crazy and dangerous without saying why is just plain foolish.

    I disagree with Rush on several things from time to time, but I will say he is spot on right now on how Obama is going to pretend like he has nothing to do with anything. He is also one of the few discussing the interesting phenomenon that is the American people right now with respect to Obama. The majority think the country is going in the wrong direction and do not like Obama’s agenda. Yet he still enjoys a high approval rating. Too few are discussing this oddity.

    I have to say I am disappointed in Cupp. I thought she was better than this.

  • wojmax

    a discention is not much. we are not calling each other crazies.
    i do not agree with Rush 100%, but the man has an incite as to how the current
    political events will playout! Think about the SUV controversy a few years back.

  • davesinsanantonio

    And by Dimocrap wannabes! I cannot believe how many who claim to be on our side say things that make them look like the other side, and then get all upset when someone on our side calls them on it. Whose side are they on really? Do they even know?

  • davesinsanantonio

    Here is a thought—How many listeners does Rush have vs. how many does Cupp have? Someone should quietly point this out to Cupp and ask her to explain the difference and why she should be denouncing him. And why she thinks any three Republicans denouncing him on three different networks is a measure of anything. They could just be DIRCs (Democrats in RINO clothing).

  • davesinsanantonio

    More likely they focus on what they think he said, or what someone made up and claimed he said. But, since he has more than 20 million listeners daily I would say he is certainly viewed by a lot of people as “the unofficial spokesperson of the right”!!!!

  • dudette

    she’s just trying to earn a few brownie points to keep her on MSNBC and other non-worthy shows; sort of trending like Scarborough and the others who criticize their own to stay popular. If she is speaking truth to power why not speak about Hagel and Brennan’s Muslim ties? Oh, that would make her persona non grata immediately. and it would take guts.

  • shchph

    Rush is right, and SE Cupp is a has been, ballet dancing, atheist. There – I’m not afraid to call Ms. Cupp, out.

  • daniel22

    I think that the left likes to use and abuse Rush as a typical right wing believer. He is a commentator/ entertainer that happens to charge in where RINOs fear to tread and I like that. It is also what irritates the left. They like to call the argument and define the terms of speech even! Rush challenges that consistently and comes out even stronger. It seems that his rebuttals of their positions are backed by facts and that is something the left is short on. The left does have a rather short and overused supply of ad hominem arguments and names for those that disagree with them which Rush has been a victim of. If he was not so influential and effective though I do not believe that the left would be so pre-occupied with him.

  • edintexas

    Very few on RS will have read the article, it is in the NYT. However, the discussion has been ongoing throughout Party and Conservative circles. In fact Conservatives have been discussing what it wrong with the Republican Party for years and years.

  • edintexas

    “But liberals and DEMS must call out liberal media when they cross the red line too.”

    Don’t hold your breath.

  • reddog76

    I would just like to see ALL talking heads work harder to not come off as plain nasty, vile, mean when doing their talking. Does Coulter also come to mind ?? Do they actually get more results by doing that ?? More shock factor, yes. Actual results in conservative favor ??

  • Kensington

    Who said it was?

  • Kensington

    And that was probably nonsense. Why on Earth would anyone have been bothered if a YA book with a boy for the main character were written by a women?

  • Kensington

    Michael Moore is a conspiracy theorist, a fraud, and a deliberate liar. Rush Limbaugh is none of those things.

  • richardsaunders1

    I don’t listen to Rush very much.

    I have never heard him saying that outrageous to the point where it would be necessary to denounce him.

    He has had a long radio career.

    He probably has said some inflammatory and nutty things over the years, but so has most every radio and television broadcaster that has had a career that has spanned decades.

    I have watched the nut jobs on MSNBC and listened to Air America before it got dumped.

    And has anybody ever listened to that vile Bill Mahrer on HBO?

    If anybody needs to universally denounced, it would be the kooks in the liberal media.

  • paleen

    If this was a critic of something Rush has said I would be willing to discuss whatever it was but this was some sort of general bashing of Rush which only gives the left the ability to fill in the blanks. That is stupid. If you have a problem with something Rush has said then state it but a general bash is only playing into the lefts game

  • Ari

    I think you are not a “true” conservative. Clearly she is opposed to RUSH’s beliefs and conservatism. Sure he is emotional, dramatic, and not how one not on “stage” should act. Our “ratings” do rely on a more mature approach. But that should not seek to silence Rush, or any Media personality (Perhaps with exception of Rachael Maddow).

    I would agree that the personal attacks fail to argue issues clearly.

    Ad Hominem is defined as “appealing to
    emotions: appealing to people’s emotions and
    prejudices instead of their ability to think”
    [ Late 16th century. < Latin, "to the person" ]
    The person is not the problem, their thinking is. If we don't have facts and truthful details to argue we should stop at for or against marks and stop giving ourselves and Red State a negative image.

  • Ari

    Thats one more proof of why does STEWCO so admire SE CUPP?

  • Ari

    Media associations breed “Herd” mentalities. They also quickly what positions quickly lead to advancement,

    We should choose better “idols.” Starting right here with Front page blogs.

    Horowitz, Moe L, Steve Maley, and many more on Red State set a much higher and factual standard with realisic insights.
    Pass them on.

  • orangecrush35

    Rush does a radio show. You don’t. So stop telling him how to do his show. He’s not affialited with the GOP and his j ob isn’t to get Republicans elected so Cupp suggesting Republican operatives take to the television to denounce him is absurd.

    Cupp is free to approach politics anyway she wants but she needs to stop lecturing somebody far far more popular and inteligent than her on how to approach it.

  • orangecrush35

    The analogy to Micheel Moore is lame. Michael Moore couldn’t do a radio show and he isn’t funny.

  • orangecrush35

    I never thougt she was that hot. Her face is kind of manly.

  • orangecrush35

    What is interesting to me how few people have observed that she works for Glenn Beck. Why doesn’t she denounce Glenn Beck? Beck said Obama doesn’t like white people. It’s funny how a lot of liberals embrace this woman for attacking Rush but she’s on the Beck payroll and they hate Beck as much as Rush.
    She acts like she “has balls” but she’s not going to denounce the man who pays her. It seems hypocritical.

  • orangecrush35

    Rush is better than these guys.

  • orangecrush35

    I think Rush comes across as funny which does appeal to young and old alike. Most of our talking heads are so boring.

  • capeconservative

    Political Correctness…I was soooo happy to hear Dr. Carson address that topic…while standing just a few feet from one of the biggest offenders! The first amendment has been stolen from us…freedom of speech only applies if we speak on their terms!

    Ben Carson for president! Let’s see how long S.E. & her liberal buddies can go before trashing him!

  • orangecrush35

    Cupp’s thing is to complain about something that isn’t all that big of a deal. She whined about the Clint Eastwood chair thing and acted like it was worse than cancer. She was beating up on Rubio today for pandering to young people on rap music. She seems a little to eager to be a contrarian on trivial things.

  • orangecrush35

    If we only had one shot to convince a group of open minded people on politics, who would you rather have talk to them, Rush or Cupp? Rush is by far the better communicator. So i scoff when she starts acting like she knows more about persuasion.

  • rbdwiggins

    The trashing of Dr. Carson began immediately following the conclusion of his speech at the National Prayer Breakfast, and he defended himself well against the onslaught of liberal critics during his exclusive appearance on Hannity’s special, Saving America, over the weekend.

  • greghalvorson

    If Rush, in Cupp’s world, is “stupid” and “dangerous,” then her world self-projects what it is through her words.

  • hnordquist_

    If you would bother to read the post, you would see that I didn’t compare the two men or the content of their arguments, but their relationships with the groups they claim to be spokespersons for.

  • hnordquist_

    Who said muzzle? I never said that.

    The Right believes that Rush has huge influence. It simply isn’t true.

  • hnordquist_

    What do you base this on? I don’t know a single moderate or Democrat that has been converted by Rush. I am moderate, and listen occasionally. I consider Rush to be entertainment and nothing more. If I wanted to be scolded, yelled at and told how ignorant I could find much more interesting ways of doing it. The conservative movement will not gain votes by having him speak for them.

  • Sir Aaron

    Really. He has a daily audience of millions of people and he has no influence? Or he has influence and you don’t consider his audience huge (not to mention the gamut of other talk shows that credit him). Either way why don’t you go bother somebody else?

  • rbdwiggins

    I firmly stand by my analysis and conclusion, which would not have been possible if I had not read the post, as they are absolutely spot-on.

    Analogous was your chosen word, and even when one considers the “relationship,” the post still remains an opinionated comparison devoid of fact.

    Despite your “opinion” to the contrary, the Right enjoys enormous benefits from their relationship with Rush Limbaugh and the insight he provides. The Left is immeasurably harmed by their relationship with Michael Moore and the propaganda he spews.

  • stewco

    Cupp speaks to many young conservatives, including me. From everything I read here it seems that President Reagan’s big tent is now so small there seems to be an unconscious desire to lose elections rather than have open dialogue and discussion with fellow conservatives who may have different views to build broad consensus and a coalition that wins.

  • stewco

    Well said.

  • stewco

    Whole heartily agree. It’s since rush we have lost 5 out of 6 popular votes on national level. Seems he fits in the taking the party down mode more than anything.

  • stewco

    His influence, by results, is net negative, is the point, except for his wallet.

  • stewco

    Many would disagree.

  • stewco

    This is the same line of denial that had us all believing we were going to beat Obama. She is tomorrow, Rush is yesterday.

  • hnordquist_

    Ever heard of preaching to the choir?

  • hnordquist_

    Yes, let me show you again…

    “I’ve always thought of Rush’s relationship with the Right as analogous to Michael Moore’s relationship with the Left.”

    Which is precisely what I meant.

    The words “I have always thought of…..” necessarily point to something that is my opinion, and I never argued otherwise.

    By the same logic, your statement that the Right enjoys benefits from this relationship is subjective. I personally believe that Rush will hurt the conservative movement in the long run. The GOP and conservatism has big issues with certain demographics in the wider electorate. Rush can’t fix that. Rush can’t make that better. Rush WILL make it worse.

    Doggedly holding on to the ideas and tactics that worked in the past will not further conservative ideals right now. It is time to shake it up. It is time for conservatives to figure out how to hone their positions and present them to the voters that are ignoring them right now and let them know that conservatism can work for them. I offer an opinion, but one based on being in a demographic group that is one of the groups least likely to vote GOP (Hispanic, college-educated, 30-40 year old female). Here it is:

    Stop using the chiding old white guy as your figure head. Find someone that is less rude and patronizing of minorities, women and ideas that don’t match his/hers exactly. I don’t want to feel that my political party is scolding me, judging me or presuming to know all my motivations. Quit making wide and sweeping generalizations about being Hispanic, or a woman, or poor, or over and under-educated. Old white guys should not presume to understand these issues.

    The GOP and conservatism has a HUGE image problem right now. Rush only strengthens the opposition’s view of what conservatism is; crass, uncaring, judgmental and dismissive of people’s real-life, everyday problems.

  • rbdwiggins

    Changing minds and hearts” explains everything. You’re a Moderate, willling to abandon the constitutional principles of our Founding in favor of manufactured public opinion, political correctness and moral relativism. It also explains the obvious disdain you hold for Rush and the bias which clouds your judgment.

    As far as the demographics you claim are necessary for electoral success are concerned… Read this: California’s Demographic Revolution

    Our constitutional Republic cannot survive the unsustainable expansion and destructive nature of the welfare state, and neither can the Hispanic population. The welfare state has already destroyed the Black family in America. It will do exactly the same thing to the Hispanic family. It’s only a matter of time.

    The first victim of political correctness is the unvarnished truth…

  • hnordquist_

    Interesting story about immigrants. My family did not come from Mexico and did not get naturalized, but was instead in New Mexico since the 17th century. Just another example of how you make wrong assumptions about someone who says they are Hispanic. I don’t feel the pressures of the “underclass”. My family encouraged education and upward mobility in a completely different manner than you suggest. We never felt sorry for ourselves. We never used public assistance. We did serve in the military, start businesses and get college educations. I have spent precisely 1 week of my life on unemployment benefits when I was laid off at the age of 19.
    Stop saying that Hispanic necessarily means “taker” and “user”. It is ignorant, patronizing and simply not true.
    I’m not suggesting political correctness for political correctness’ sake. I am suggesting that Rush presents information in a way that is off-putting to people. I am not part of the underclass. I don’t need assistance. When I hear that drivel over and over and over again, I am offended precisely because I don’t fit in his mold and he still keeps talking. I don’t hold disdain for him, and I firmly believe in not sugar-coating issues, I just happen to think there is a better way to present information than the way Rush does it.
    The Hispanic population offers a very interesting opportunity for the conservative movement, but I fear that with attitudes like yours they will continue to vote against conservative ideals over and over and over. You can’t expect a demographic to listen to what losers they are and then go to the polls and vote for you.

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    I feel you are right, I think.

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    She’s not your type, Jim.

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    Right on, Aaron. It’s time to stop criticizing our friends for style when we should be complimenting them on substance. Let the left waste IT’S precious airtime criticizing Rush. We can spend ours criticizing The Won.

  • Jim_Riggs

    Wait… what?

    You mean I’m not her type.

    I’m open-minded.

    :)

  • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

    Yes, that’s what I meant. (^:^)

  • Finrod

    Very few people would have been, but her odds of getting through the publishing industry probably went up.

  • stewco

    As I reread this, you are exactly what the GOP needs. Don’t allow the “old failed guard” to dissuade you.