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Rand Paul: Get the government out of marriage

Senator Rand Paul gave an interview to National Review about his libertarian approach to Republican policy, with an emphasis on national defense, given his spectacular filibuster of CIA nominee John Brennan over domestic drone strikes.  But he also had some interesting comments on the subject of gay marriage, where he said he wanted to “shake up the Republican position.”

“I’m an old-fashioned traditionalist. I believe in the historic and religious definition of marriage,” said Paul. “That being said, I’m not for eliminating contracts between adults. I think there are ways to make the tax code more neutral, so it doesn’t mention marriage. Then we don’t have to redefine what marriage is; we just don’t have marriage in the tax code.”

The notion of extricating the government from the marriage business altogether has long been advocated by libertarians, and gains new currency among the general Republican population as perception grows that defending traditional marriage is an electorally thankless task.  Social conservatives generally insist upon it, but a good number of otherwise approachable voters, especially young people, favor gay marriage.  It might fairly be said that the culturally-influenced “default” position, for people who don’t really count marriage as a top concern, now favors gay marriage, where 10 or 15 years ago it was almost certainly opposed.  That’s a significant tipping point for any issue: the moment of casual acceptance.  It makes this an issue some Republicans would prefer to quietly table.

On the specific Paul proposals: I’ve always thought it was silly to block simple legal contracts between consenting adults, but I think that can be accomplished without re-defining marriage.  The issue of tax-code treatment is more complex.  I think society has positive reasons to provide incentives for traditional marriage – to put it bluntly, a healthy, independent society needs a lot of long-lasting marriages between men and women, with a sizable percentage of them raising multiple children in stable households.  There just isn’t any substitute for that.  It’s a practical consideration, not a moral or religious judgment.

But I’m also receptive to the argument that the State subsidizes and punishes far too much private behavior.  Not enough people understand that subsidies are penalties for the people who don’t receive them.  If gay couples feel that way about preferential tax treatment granted to married men and women, it could be taken as an encouraging sign of progress.  We should make the tax code “neutral” in countless ways.  I don’t see why marriage should go first, but it definitely shouldn’t be the last.

Beyond these matters, the notion of extracting government from marriage runs into a couple of big problems.  Child custody is an obvious example.  Such matters are already difficult.  They would grow even more so, if the government played no role in certifying legitimate marriages.  The separation of law from marriage, until it becomes entirely a matter between private individuals, is more difficult to accomplish than the lovely libertarian simplicity of the idea implies.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but I don’t think same-sex marriage advocates really want the State to butt out.  Can private individuals be allowed to refuse recognition of a same-sex marriage?  Criticism of the “federalist” approach to marriage, in which each state makes its own laws – the position President Obama supposedly favors, although he currently trembles with the first signs of another “evolution” – holds that it’s not enough to allow gay marriage in one state but not another, because people who get married in states which allow it will inevitably migrate to those which don’t.

There are people on both sides of the gay marriage issue who level this criticism, obviously for opposite reasons.  People who enter the strong, sacred commitment of marriage wish that commitment to be recognized by others, and are dismayed when others deny the validity of their marital bond.  A strong driving force behind the institution of marriage is public acknowledgement.  That’s one reason the vows are celebrated with great ceremony, and consecrated with religious authority.

I’m a supporter of traditional marriage, but I have no doubt the majority of same-sex marriage advocates sincerely desire this recognition, for the same reasons married men and women do.  I find it hard to imagine that the marriage wars will end with a cease-fire in which everyone agrees to keep government power completely out of the picture, allowing individuals to define, declare, and deny the sanctity of marriage in any way they see fit.  To be honest, given the general nature of modern culture, I doubt this would ultimately end with traditionalists retaining the right to verbally deny the validity of gay marriage without being accused of hate crimes, never mind refusing to acknowledge such marriages in any practical sense.  It doesn’t seem like the sort of question any society is likely to settle without some recourse to law and government.

 

 

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COMMENTS

  • PowerToThePeople

    Rand Paul is wrong on this. And he and everyone else who agrees will remain wrong unless there comes a time in this nation where activist judges cannot affect other states and if there comes a day when a state can punish people of faith for refusing to marry a gay couple, allow use of their buildings, or where a person can be accused of a hate crime for saying it is wrong. We have seen all of this already.

    There has to be a federal law in order for each state to be protected. That federal law can be as simple as each state makes up it own rules as to marriage and no one can mess with the state or try to force it into anything. There has to be a federal law protecting anyone of faith or no faith at all from being sued because they will not allow a gay couple to use their property even if the state they live in recognizes gay marriage or civil unions.

    Right now a person in CA can sue any state, put the case in the right judges hands, and everyone is affected. In a couple of states, you can be forced to or they are trying to force free use of a church for gay events if that church allows anyone to use the church for anything other than preaching. Two states are working on enacting hate laws that will allow for the arrest of anyone who states gay is sin. Sorry, but in order to protect citizens from a militant minority, there has to be a federal law protecting traditional marriage and anyone who believes in the same. It does not have to take away a state’s right to decided for itself what will be accepted in its own borders, but it does have to protect the sanctity of marriage for everyone else and protect marriage supporters. It is just the reality of America today and just how easy it is for a militant minority to stomp on everyone else including state rights.

  • earlgrey

    I agree with this too. I was too chicken to comment until someone else did. I also agree that for many SSM proponents this would not be the desired outcome. They want us to view their marriage as the same, and I don’t think I will ever be able to do that. So that makes me a bigot.

    But I do support the idea that the state can call my “marriage” a civil union and treat it the same as any same-sex couple. I would be inclined though to have a small marriage ceremony at my place of worship (got married in a hotel)–churches should get behind this $$$. :) .

  • kipling

    Conservatives, no matter what brand (fiscal, social, or strong defense), have a compelling interest to support traditional marriage. The family is the traditional building block of society. As traditional marriage goes, so goes the country. We already know from statistical studies that a traditional family promotes education, citizenship, morality, and economic stability. We also know that its absence leads to increased poverty, crime, and a more likelihood of going to prison. The social problems caused by the decline in traditional marriage will require more government intervention, more bureaucracy, and more revenue to be redistributed. Edmund Burke argued, and I paraphrase, that we should not change traditional institutions that have worked for centuries for fancy new ideas that has no proven track record.

  • PowerToThePeople

    What did you find too hard to understand? Let me try this again. Keep up.

    We know that state law is not enough to keep militant activist from suing and impeding state rights. We see it all the time.

    We know that states will try to force faith based groups into submission. We have seen that currently in WA and OR. Without federal protection, churches are being forced to allow gay couples and gay groups to use their buildings even though it is against what they believe.

    We know that “married” gay couples from other states have filed over 100 lawsuits in attempt to force every other state to recognize their marriage and give them every right afforded to traditionally married couples. This is a clear violation of state rights but activist judges do not care about that.

    We know that in WA and OR there are attempts to make stating gay activity is a sin a hate crime and refusing to marry a gay couple or refusing to allow the church building to be used for the ceremony would be discrimination that would be punishable by a huge fine and lawsuit.

    There are many more items I could list that demands federal law and protection. I could give a rat’s ass what Obama chooses to do or what he chooses to enforce, that does not change the absolute necessity that there be a Federal law protecting traditional marriage from activist judges, militant gays, and other states, there has to be a Federal law and protection for faith based groups that are being forced to surrender their buildings for gay activities which is a clear violation of their constitutional rights but more importantly, a violation of their faith. We need a federal law protecting states who decide to support traditional marriage from lawsuits from outsider, ruling from activist judges, etc.

    Without a federal law and federal protection, any state that chooses to protect traditional marriage will be sued, attacked, etc. They stand little chance against judges who deem themselves policy makers.

    Most importantly, Federal law does not have to include keeping states who wish to allow gay civil unions or marriage from doing so, but it does have to exist to protect states that do not want that crap in their state and it has to protect the constitutional rights of citizens within states that allow gay unions or marriages from being forced to participate in the unions via using their buildings or putting them in jail for hate crimes just because they spoke the truths of their faith.

  • Bill S

    What makes you think that the gay lobby would stop if “government got out of the marriage business”? There is already legal action being taken against churches that refuse to marry homosexuals.

    It’s a pipe dream to think that “getting government out of marriage” will fix this problem. The gay lobby will stop at nothing short of total acceptance of their lifestyle choice – by everyone.

  • runner12

    I respect Rand Paul and understand his reasoning on this issue. He is trying to protect traditional marriage by removing the government out of it. But as you point out, the reality of this actually working is non-existent. Namely because the goal of the gay lobby is not equality, it is forced acceptance. They want government involvement. They want the courts to force everyone to recognize and accept homosexuality and gay marriage. They could care less about religious freedom or the 1st Amendment. In a battle, it is always said to “know thine enemy or the opposition.” It seems Sen. Paul has forgotten this.

  • willstauff

    I refuse to call it traditional marriage because there is no traditional, same-sex or gay marriage. There’s only one kind and has always been. Marriage as defined by a man and a woman.

  • PowerToThePeople

    Perfect Bill, perfect.

    I just do not get why our side can not come to grasp facts on this issue. As a norm, we all want less government, but that does not mean we want no government.

    Without federal law protecting the sanctity of marriage, no state is safe nor is any religious/believe in traditional marriage group. And the threat does not necessarily come from the state the group is in. Some asshat in CA can force someone in NY to accept their activism. Militants from NY can cause churches to be sued in Oregon. Unless there is a federal law stating traditional marriage can not be changed and beliefs will be protected no matter what state they are in, we and our way of life is in jeopardy. This is a perfect example of when Federal law is needed, just like it was needed to protect minorities and the downtrodden from slavery.

  • PowerToThePeople

    The definition you gave is what makes something traditional, hence why it is called traditional marriage.

  • midwestconservative

    California has a completely equal Civil Union avaible for Gays but that didn’t stop them from sueing Prop 11, and later the Constitutional Ammendment of Prop 8

  • Bill S

    It’s hard to believe people who spew statistical myths.

    http://psychcentral.com/lib/2012/the-myth-of-the-high-rate-of-divorce/all/1/

    You’re rapidly wearing out your welcome here.

  • exitsfunnel

    Gay rights advocates have rejected civil unions only because they see them as separate but equal. If the government only recognizes civil unions for all couples, gay and straight, that objection goes away.

    In any event, as a practical matter, I think that we are beyond the point for that compromise. If something like that had been embraced eight or ten years ago by social conservatives it might have been workable but at this point same sex civil marriage is inevitable.

  • http://www.licgop.com licgop

    It is a religious institution? Since when?

  • celador2

    How can state government not define and protect marriage?
    All marriage is a civil union and the majority are not performed by a religious official nor should they be going back to Puritan times when Magistirates did most marriages. Marriage to most early founders who were Protestant was not a holy sacrement that required a priest as Protetants had a different role for clergy and did not recognize a special need for a priest.

    States define marriage criteria at legislature level signed by a governor. Counties issue a marriage certificate which includes criteria for a marriage application. There often is a wait before the marriage ceremony.
    Criteria for marriage in most states are,

    Age of consent
    married to no one else
    no close blood relative (Incent prohibition)
    Opposite sex , one man and one woman

    An authorized offical performs the marriage also approved by that state. Not just any preacher, priest, mullah ot Las Vegas palace can marry unless registered with the state and county. State means small s like Iowa or Alabama not the US government that has no authority to marry a couple in Alabama.

    The US government through constitution however has a clause that may enforce marriages other states perform called ‘full faith and credit’. DOMA allows states to define marriage still without recognizing gay marriage. if DOMA fallls it is possible for the first time states can not enforce or implement the criteria they set in the states and must recognize marriage performed in other states

    I am confused with the claim governent should be removed from marriage. State government and counties have always been involved in setting criteria and oversight not religious institutions.
    Removing government from marriage means the states shut down setting marriage criteria and overseeing who performs ceremonies. What Paul calls for is wiping out the Tenth or a states time honored authority to regulate marriage..Any agr, multiple partners whatever if states authorty to regulate is removed.

    For those who insist on gay marriage as Rand Paul seems to advocate it is easier to remove the ‘opposite sex’ criteria on a mamriage license application than remove a states authority to define and regulate marriage license criteria and who performs the ceremonies.
    Paul should work to convince KY to change its laws.

  • celador2

    Twice the people added marriage is defined as a man and woman to the state constitution and the people of California have been blown off by courts since 2000. The legislature runs by Ds can not pass a law since the constitution overrides a mere law
    Vote again? Why not? Just vote til they get the tally they want.
    Oh no run the marriage defintion as ‘ one man oand one woman’ through the courts– mullahs appointed for life say Democrats. Afterall, self governmet is but a suggestion is how it looks.
    .

  • celador2

    I suggest Rand Paul join the DNC where his views on marriage and tax law are more fitting. For years the Republicans fought to make the tax code more frienldy to marriage.

  • celador2

    Gay marriage is coming in on the police state door kicking power of courts, media and assaults on faith and people of faith.

  • PowerToThePeople

    That is an obnoxiously out there comment Celador. I disagree with Rand on many issues when he goes out in Libertarian land, but he is one of our better Senators and disagreements with certain areas does not define someone as DNC when they consistently support our core principles.

  • curtmilr

    So long as the militant minority is aggressively forcing the action, an attempt at cease fire merely turns into a surrender.
    My own belief regarding marriage is biblically based, which would wholly eliminate SSM, as homosexuality itself is condemned as sinful. I am also admonished not to judge, but to separate myself from the sinful activity and sinner as possible. But to enforce that biblical view via government is rightfully viewed as an establishment of religion. Thus limitation must be made based on societal or health, not religious, contructs.
    How to get the militants to stand down and accept a truce is the genuine problem. Civil unions is an obvious approach, but the militants reject that.
    But somehow there must be a national standard in law to protect the rights of the individual states to adopt their own policies within a federal structure.

  • exitsfunnel

    Ugh. What about unmarried conservative tax payers? Everyone has their own just-so stories to explain why the government hand-outs they favor are conservative but it doesn’t make them so. As a single, childless Libertarian the government is already extorting from me the money to send your children to school. Can’t that just be enough? As conservatives shouldn’t we at least be able to agree that the government should treat everyone equally and that I shouldn’t be penalized for not getting married. Jeez.

  • skip1982

    I take issue with the belief that society is better served when a lefty family like the Kennedys have a bunch of little brats as opposed to a childless conservative couple, gay or straight.

    But on the serious side, I think Rand Paul has a good idea. Too bad there is no chance of it happening.

  • bobmark

    Those childeren that you are helping educate will be paying the taxes that fund your Social Security. It is in your interest that they grow up to be makers instead of takers.

  • streiff

    That and the government has a vested interest in encouraging childbearing which produces future tax paying citizens.

  • Finrod

    You’re assuming that libertarians and the gay lobby are reading from the same playbook, when most libertarians would be happy with civil unions. Federal recognition of civil unions would be a huge step and would give non-heterosexual couples pretty much everything they need. People that aren’t part of the gay leadership lobby recognize this, and there is less support for where the gay leadership lobby wants to go than it seems.

  • runner12

    You mistake my meaning. I mean that too many libertarians seem unwilling or unaware of the goals of the gay lobby. Which is one of the problems overall with most libertarians. Their ideals often seem to ignore reality. Too many mistakenly believe that it is only social conservatives who are committed to their social values. The Left is every bit as committed to their social beliefs and have no problem using the government to force those who disagree with them to accept them. Unlike social conservatives, they have no issue with running over the Constitution.

    Civil unions were not enough, then “marriage” became their battle cry. Now in the states they have achieved their goal even that is not enough. Now they want to criminalize calling homosexuality a sin and sue churches for not allowing gays to be married in their buildings. Retreating or compromising will not solve this issue because a). The opposition wants no part of compromise and solution b). Retreating will not gain and victories and will most likely lead to religious persecution. The only option is to fight back.

  • streiff

    I think the libertarians know exactly what they are doing.

  • runner12

    Some may, some may not. There are a lot of “bandwagoners” who jump on the libertarian bandwagon who have not really though these issues through. They either cannot or refuse to understand that the Left does not separate their social agenda from their economic/political one. If you give way on to them in one area, they will very quickly overrun you. You will actually enable the enemy of liberty.

    Libertarians must open their eyes and realize that just like immigration, the Left does not want a reasonable solution on this issue. It is their way or no way, and they will run over the Constitution to accomplish their goals.