Investigate Clinton admin’s use of torture

By: Kevin Groenhagen (Diary) | April 24th, 2009 at 09:32 AM |

RESIZE: AAA

In 1995, the Clinton administration began an extraordinary rendition program in which terror suspects were moved from one country to another. Michael Scheuer, the CIA agent in charge of snatch operations from 1995 to 1999, says about 50 renditions took place during those years.
Scheuer said he wanted the suspects brought to the U.S. as prisoners of war with Geneva Conventions protections. However, the Clinton administration believed giving the suspects POW status would have given them credibility.
Scheuer also believes that terror suspects were tortured during the Clinton years. “There was more of a willingness in the White House to turn a blind eye to the legal niceties than within the CIA,” Scheuer said. “The Agency always knew it would be left holding the baby for this one… I’m paid to protect Americans, so if the lawyers said it was okay, it was okay.”
“In 1998, SIS [MI6] believed that it might be able to obtain actionable intelligence that might enable the CIA to capture Osama bin Laden,” the British parliament’s intelligence and security committee on rendition said in a 2007 report. “Given that this might have resulted in him being rendered from Afghanistan to the US, SIS sought ministerial approval. This was given provided that the CIA gave assurances regarding humane treatment.”
The CIA never gave the assurances.
Democrats are demanding investigations regarding the alleged use of torture during the Bush years. If they want these investigations to appear nonpartisan, they should also include allegations of torture during the Clinton years.

Sources:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/19/AR2007101900835_pf.html

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2005/10/two_experts_on_1.html

COMMENTS

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Achance

The last words lots of British soldiers heard were, “Tarleton’s Quarter.” War has always been a rough business but we haven’t always had a 5th Column media looking for anti-American stories and we haven’t always been a nation of oh-so-sensitive panty-waists.
Kevin Groenhagen

“So that scenario is impossible, but the ?ticking time bomb?, 24, we are all going to die scenario happens so often we have to legalize ‘enhanced interrogation techniques.’?

But if we had that scenario just once and a pusilanimous president such as Obama failed to take all steps necessary to prevent it, we would have the right to remove him from office.
Kevin Groenhagen

“It?s always amazing that people use the ticking time bomb to defend torture. One it never happens, but lets say it did? Sure you would do anything and everything necessary? still don?t think torture should be legal though?”

Enhanced interrogation techniques prevented an al Qaeda attack on Los Angeles. Are you saying that it would have been better to allow hundreds or thousands to die in LA instead of waterboarding one terrorist? Frankly, waterboarding seems little different from the time those of us who served in the Marines spent in the gas chamber during boot camp.

Aaron Gardner

Thanks for fighting the good fight…but make sure to use the “Reply to This” button so your comments will be threaded under the comment you are responding to.

Thanks.

Kevin Groenhagen

I see you’re from Vermont. I’m descended from Rep, Matthew Lyon, who fought with Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain Boys. He was the first American imprisoned by the Sedition Act of 1798. He merely criticized the why President Adams was conducting his office, but received a heavy fine, and was placed in a small, cold, and dirty cell for several months. He was later exconerated and the fine was repaid to his family.

But, of course, George W. Bush broke 200+ years of our civil rights record by having a little water poured on the faces of terrorists.

Aaron Gardner

I went to a dinner sponsored by the Ethan Allen institute a few weeks ago…btw…why didn’t you use the “Reply to This” button to respond to me….lol

Pingback: Scottie Coursey
xccporg

Republicans defending other Republicans actions by pointing to the Clinton administration…. I really have seen everything.

I guess if a democratic administration did it….
Kevin Groenhagen

Which liberals tend to do. I wasn’t defending anyone or anything. I merely believe that if Democrats want to investigate interrogation techniques approved by the government, why go back to just 2002? Can you give us one valid reason why we should not also look at the interrogation techniques–including alleged torture–authorized by the Clinton administration?
xccporg

If the diary is true, and I have no reason to doubt it isn’t, then I do believe that the Clinton administration is just as guilty as the Bush (assuming the accusations against the bush admin are true also). Those responsible in both instances should be charged, tried and prosecuted.

See I don’t believe someone is guilty or not based on the letter next to their name, and I sure don’t try to lessen a crime by pointing to other peoples violation of the same crime.

Two wrongs don’t make a right and all that.

I am better than a terrorist, and I am confident that our country does not have to stoop to their level to defeat them.
Aaron Gardner

oh that’s right…you can’t.

Let’s not draw lines of moral equivalence that don’t exist…ok?
xccporg

but.. I feel that America is the beacon of light in a world full of darkness. We were free when the rest of the world was enslaved, we chose to treat British soldiers during the revolutionary war with respect even though they never returned the favor.

We have always lived to a higher standard than the rest of the world.. Stooping down even when we are still heads above our enemy does not make it better. Its disappointing either way.

I’d rather die knowing we did the moral thing than live with the shame of compromising our morals in the name of results.
Aaron Gardner

I am sure the families of those who died think highly of your willingness to allow their loved ones to die, all because your sensibilities would have been in jeopardy if we had used legal techniques to to gain information that could have prevented their deaths.

Like I said before…let’s not draw lines of moral equivalence that *don’t* exist…got it?
janis

If the answer is “Yes”, then let’s try a little experiment. A family member you adore is taken hostage by a terrorist. There’s no doubt that your loved one is going to be killed if you can’t find a way to stop it. Then you discover that the terrorist’s colleague has been captured and refuses to divulge info that will lead to the return of your loved one safely. The only way to get the guy to talk is to use coercive interrogation techniques. What do you do?

And if the answer is “It’s morally wrong to use these techniques and so I’d let my innocent family member die rather than use them” then you are truly as morally bankrupt as those you are accusing. What happened to “protect the innocent”?
JadedByPolitics

and report back if you have a head to how that “moral” thing is working out for the United States!

A larger percentage of the population has NO PROBLEM with “compromising” our morals BECAUSE WE don’t see it that way!

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/04/023399.php
Streiff

where did you get that gem of a non-fact? Saturday morning tv?

How about Trail of Tears? Sand Creek? Wounded Knee? Emira, Camp Chase, Point Lookout?

Talk about a fact-free argument
xccporg

I’m as cool with 9/11 happening as I was with Pearl Harbor, or Oklahoma city… We didn’t torture the Japanese, or Timothy McVeigh.

Or just in case… obviously I don’t want anyone to die… but there are some things worth dying for… “give me liberty or give me death” for example.
xccporg

It’s always amazing that people use the ticking time bomb to defend torture. One it never happens, but lets say it did… Sure you would do anything and everything necessary… still don’t think torture should be legal though…

I’d say it could be compared to murdering the guy who raped your daughter… its still murder, but hopefully the jury will nullify… Either way in the situation you provided I would be more than willing to accept my fate to save a family member, and I think that’s the way it should be… Risking prosecution is a good way to make sure that torture is only used in the most extreme circumstances.
ehosterman

Of course it was after the fact. If you don’t think Roosevelt would have blanched at ” togh iterrogatiional techniques”, you’re a fool. remeber Roosevelt cared so much about law and the Constitution that he rounded up all the Americans of Japansese decent, confiscated their property and gave them a vacation in internmant camps.
Aaron Gardner

We haven’t tortured anyone. You implied we did, you further implied that we are on par with what the terrorist do.

So again I will ask you to not draw lines of moral equivalence that *don’t* exist…why is this so hard for you to understand.

As far as your little quip about “give me liberty or give me death”..well first you ain’t no Patrick Henry, second you don’t get to make that decision for other peoples lives.

If we had not subjected KSM to waterboarding people would have died..it is as simple as that.
xccporg

were done in accordance with the law.. They were tried, convicted, and hung.

As we should do in any civilized society.
xccporg

We “interrogated them with “enhanced” techniques”. I didn’t know we were so P.C. around here.
Aaron Gardner

and all the intelligence that died with him that could have prevented a future attack….what about that.

If a plot had been taken to fruition and your family got killed you would probably be blaming Bush for not doing enough.

Quit being disingenuous…we have had enough of that the last few days.
ehosterman

The memos you lefties are trying to use as proof of a crime were legal opinions on the legality of the enhanced methods. Just because you don’t like the interrogation method doesn’t make it illegal.
janis

We may never know the number and extent of the terror plots that have been stopped over the past 8 years, nor will we necessarily know what was done to get the info needed in order to stop them. Our enemies are savages and care less than nothing about laws. While that doesn’t mean that we should be as lawless as they are, it does mean that we will have to do what is necessary to prevail in this fight to the death.

If we are not willing to do all in our power to win this thing, then we should just capitulate right now and hand power to the radicals. Think of all the terrorists who could be spared the indignity of interrogation if we did that! Now, think of all the innocents who will die if we did that.
Aaron Gardner
xccporg

as ehosterman stated above… we locked up Japanese Americans during WWII…. very few people objected at the time… today we view those actions are wrong.

The majority is not always right… that’s why we are not a democracy.
JadedByPolitics

here when talking about torture and they WRAP themselves in moral equivalance to make their point NEVER having to have been in a position to decide whose life they will have to save!
xccporg

So what happens when the democratic government that has labeled you and everyone on the right “right wing extremist” come abduct you and use “enhanced interrogation techniques” to weed out the “threat of right wing extremism”

You say it cant happen, but they have already attempted to group you with the terrorist, what makes you think they wont take it a step further?

Because after all if we are saving lives the ends justify the means.
Aaron Gardner
janis

and mercifully rational these same commenters would be if they themselves were taken hostage and brutalized by terrorists. Or if their mother or child or spouse were. Would they continue to spout moral equivalency stuff or would they do what normal people would do and scream “Kill the SOB NOW !!”

Moral equivalency is just dandy-fine in a theoretical world. In the real world, it’s as useful as tits on a boar hog.
robmikpet

the individual. Everytime you look into the mirror politicians and bureaucrats are working to take your freedom and enslave you.
E Pluribus Unum

the 53 % that voted for him, and voted in a Dem congress are stupid in ways that stagger the imagination.

And YOU are basing your entire noise, this bilge you are polluting our site with, on emotions, not facts. Emotions we do not share with you, because conservatism is not emotion-driven but reality-driven and right-and-wrong driven.

Waterboarding is torture only in your opinion. The facts strongly suggest otherwise. All your arguments are based on your fallacy, and are therefore of no merit.
JadedByPolitics

The United States Military takes an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States of America NOT for the President NOT for the DHS Secretary NOT because you dream about it…..they will NEVER turn on the citizens of the US!

OBTW WE have SHAMED THEM on that memo and that is how a Republic works!
Aaron Gardner

of course there is a big difference…I am not a terrorist…KSM is.

Also I never said the ends justify the means…I said waterboarding is legal and not torture.

Again with the moral equivalence crap…that is a sign that you are not a serious person.
janis

to watch you flail around while trying to defend your namby-pamby attitude here. For starters, name me one single plot that we right-wing folks have cooked up to destroy large numbers of the citizenry in America. Please link to sources that are recognized as reliable to demonstrate that the right has plans to take hostages and kill them until our demands are met. Take your time, we’re all interested in the fruits of your search.

Just a little bit of info for you, xccporg–when this administration decides that it wants to completely control everything that is said, done or thought in this country, folks like you will be the first ones they will dispose of. They won’t want anyone around who stands on principle, particularly on their own side, and particularly if that person thinks it’s their right to speak out.
The_Gadfly

I have no plans of revealing to the enemy what my plans are for when they begin their final assault. And I, unlike you, am more convinced that pathway is a future possibility as opposed to a mere theoretical discussion.
xccporg

So that scenario is impossible, but the “ticking time bomb”, 24, we are all going to die scenario happens so often we have to legalize “enhanced interrogation techniques.”

Our government never leaves the boundaries of the constitution….
E Pluribus Unum
Aaron Gardner

another disingenuous lie.

Waterboarding was only used 3 times.

Troll.
xccporg

So I accuse the current administration of doing something blatantly unamerican when they accuse the right of being extremist, and I am now on their side?

You know what… if it wasn’t against the rules I would have some rude things to say to you, but instead I will point out that just because I don’t agree with the right on one thing does not make me a lefty.
xccporg

Why were memos written to justify it? If it was already legal they would have just _done_ it.
Aaron Gardner

and you didn’t accuse the admin of doing something anti-American…you just tried to use it to justify your leftist take on waterboarding.

You should really look up that word “disingenuous” that I keep using…lol
janis

administration of doing something blatantly unamerican? Nowhere in your comment did that notion come through.
E Pluribus Unum

I’m not going to do your work for you. You’re a frakking leftist, and I know facts are like kryptonite. But here’s a synopsis of the memos:

(1) addressed to administration lawyers: is waterboarding legal?
(2) Answer: after researching the question, our legal opinion isthat it’s legal.

It is a lie from your side that the memos were written to “justify” it.
Right Reason

The memos stated the opinion that it WAS legal.

Haven’t you ever gone to a lawyer for legal advice? Your lawyers advice doesn’t “justify” anything, it his simply your lawyer’s legal opinion, as these memos were the opinions of DOJ lawyers.
JadedByPolitics

begging their captors to tell the US Government to “please oh please” PAY whatever to get me released all of their moral equivelance would be running down their legs!
xccporg

Washington decided to behave differently. After capturing 1,000 Hessians in the Battle of Trenton, he ordered that enemy prisoners be treated with the same rights for which our young nation was fighting. In an order covering prisoners taken in the Battle of Princeton, Washington wrote: “Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren?. Provide everything necessary for them on the road.”
janis

And that’s where their sophistry on this subject breaks down. Apparently they can never imagine that it will someday be THEM with the knife at their throat if we follow their ridiculous notions of how to fight a war.
xccporg

Living your life everyday scared s***less about being terrorized is no way to live. Life happens, but one things for sure if i’m scared of dying from something it would be something that kills more Americans per year…. like driving.
xccporg

drowning
http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question28414.html

cancer
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_in_the_us_die_each_year_of_cancer

heart attacks
http://www.mamashealth.com/Heart_stat.asp
janis

about being terrorized everyday? Don’t put words in my mouth. I plainly said that people like you apparently consider this war to be some theoretical exercise, not a reality. For me, and millions like me, this war is a deadly reality with concrete results. If we don’t win it, we either die or submit. I wish to do neither and therefore I want our gov. to do all it needs to do to win it.

That’s not living my life scared, that’s living my life sane and smart.
Aaron Gardner
Streiff

there are a lot of other instances of that not happening. Like Hessians captured after Saratoga. Or like with Loyalists captured after Kings Mountain.

Your argument above is not only anti-historical to its core but has the added virtue of really not mattering whether it is right or wrong, outside the tragic self-beclowning that occurred while you made it.

Every nation extant today has a wealth of atrocities to beat its breast about. The fact is that those atrocities don’t necessarily speak towards national character.

The idea that pouring water over the heads of a handful of pretty thuggish mass murderers is going to cost us our collective soul is simply a very silly argument made without the benefit of even a modest perspective of our national history.
xccporg

you ascribe way to much power to these cave dwellers. Now Hitlers 3rd Reich that was something to worry about. A couple idiot neanderthals operating out of their caves does not threaten me any more than McVeigh, or Abortion Clinic Bombers, The Weather Underground, etc.

They are dangerous criminals. But a threat to our way of life they are not…. only threat to our way of life is us.
Aaron Gardner
JadedByPolitics

He is not serious he is a whiny liberal who see’s moral relativism in everything when the truth is its BLACK & WHITE!
janis

IF your entire notion of what we are fighting amounts to no more than a couple of cave dwellers, you are so deliberately misinformed that it defies imagination. If you seriously cannot see, feel and hear the gathering storm of darkness that is threatening the civilized world right this very minute, then you live in some alternate reality of basement-dwelling Twinkie eaters whose biggest fear is that someone will demand they go out and get a job.

You have no business showing up at an intelligent site with so little ammunition to make your case.
xccporg

STFU for calling me a liberal… Being against torture does not make me liberal, nor conservative.

And just because someone does not agree with you does not make them a troll. I am making an honest effort to debate the facts with the nice people here at RedState.

I think there is a rule here that says be respectful.
Common_Cents

I’ve always thought we should have no rules in war. It should be as ugly as it really is with no rules. “Civilized” war with rules only serves to extend it. A war with no rules would end sooner. No rules would be a bigger deterrent in the first place.

Rules in war only get exploited most by those that care the least and hampers those that care the most.

Sounds pretty ugly, but war is ugly. Do all you can do to avoid it but when you have to, go all in.
JadedByPolitics

…
http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

Haven’t read the thread, but when you’re ready to cut the profanity, you can ask for reinstatement.

RS

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