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John Quincy Adams WAS a “Founding Father”

By: A_Texan (Diary)  |  June 29th, 2011 at 11:27 AM  | 

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Among Michelle Bachmann’s alleged gaffes is her calling the son of John Adams a “Founding Father.”

If by Founding Father we mean a signer of the Declaration of Independence, he most certainly is not one, nor, for that matter, was the 19-year-old Alexander Hamilton.

If by Founding Father, however, we mean a citizen who was a significant participant in the broader Founding of the United States–which frequently includes the period through the 1800 election, John Quincy Adams qualifies.  He was probably among the most 300 significant men of the Founding.

1. Adams participated in the ratification of the Constitution.  A recent Harvard graduate, Adams was apprenticed to Theophilus Parsons, a Federalist delegate to the Massachusetts ratifying convention.  Adams participated in various discussions with Parsons personally and his fellow citizens, and by his own account converted slowly from open opposition to support of the proposed Constitution.

2. More prominently, Adams participated in the “founding” of American foreign policy in the 1790s, as ambassador to the Netherlands and Prussia, negotiating and signing, for instance, the Prussian-American Treaty of Amity and Commerce.

 

COMMENTS

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  • volunteerstate

    Governor of our 57th State ? Counting backwards, of course.

  • A_Texan

    1. The definition of Founding Father is not so clear cut. If, as sandbun says, a Founding Father (as opposed to a “Framer”) must have been at the 1787 Convention, then the definition excludes, inter alia, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.

    2. A broader definition of the “Founders” must include all those who significantly participated in the Founding of our country–we are a popular government after all. If so, then JQA was a Founder.

    3. Perhaps Founding Fathers should be reserved to those handful of men who were particularly prominent, and perhaps might not even include all those who signed the Declaration and Constitution. Maybe only Washington, Jefferson, Adams, and the like. If so, the JQA is not a “Founding Father.”

    4. Bachman was flatly wrong in confusing Concord NH with Concord MA. And I don’t believe you will find here anyone trying to defend that mistake.

    But as to her claim that the Founders sought to eradicate slavery–she’s right, see Lincoln’s Cooper Institute Speech. And as to her claim that JQA can be classed among the Founders, her claim was arguable.

    • gwf222

      I’m 66 years young and I would have said Adams was a founding father, unless you have a History Book right in front of you to refer to
      your memory plays tricks. The misspeak of Concord MA instead of Concord NH was exactly that. The positive side of all this is Bachman knew who JOA was, that is more than you could probably say for Obama. He probably thought JQA is some new heavy metal band.

  • BigRedConservative

    A Founding Father was one directly involved with the Revolution. This precludes John Quincy Adams. A Framer was someone directly involved with the drafting and construction of the Constitution. Again, John Quincy Adams cannot fall in this group. BUT, a Founder can be said to be someone intimately involved in the development of America directly after independence. John Quincy Adam’s role in shaping America’s foreign policy can therefore comfortably make him a Founder, if not a Founding Father.

    • barleycorn

      This tempest in a tea-cup is worse than the Paul Revere inspired mountain of a molehill.

      What an asinine bunch of polly-wogs the drive by media and their liberal groupies have become.

      There is NO definitive, authoritative, absolute iron-clad definition of what qualifies a person for founding fatherdom.

      The term “founding fathers” is a casual, albeit highly reverential, sobriquet that is loosely applied to the men commonly considered most involved in the creation of what is now these United States. There is no list or Hall of Founders with pictures of each father.

      One gets the feeling that the Keith Olbermann-Ezra Klein-Bill Maher Wedge of Goofiness thinks that the Founding Fathers were a group of, oh maybe 10 guys, who all signed the Declaration, all wintered at Valley Forge, and all attended both of George Washington’s Inaugural Balls.

      • Flagstaff

        When there is no official definition of a term, it’s simple pettifoggery to object when a plausible use is made of it. In general, nobody makes a conscious decision to distinguish between Framer, Founder, and Founding Father in casual speech or even in public speech. Those distinctions usually are reserved for academic settings.

        Sure, in some respects it’s a stretch to call Quincy Adams a founding father, but it isn’t unreasonable. The five Presidents who went before him were unquestionably qualified for the designation. The one who followed wasn’t. The son of our second President, Quincy served his country well as it was entering its extended adolescence. Father and son, individually, each participated in and won significant court cases that helped shape the nation’s mores.

        Just as in the Paul Revere flap, the Usual Suspects catapulted into Ridicule Mode when a conservative woman used a term in a way they hadn’t preapproved. They never learn.

        • http://opinerlog.blogspot.com jdelaney3

          Technically speaking, Michele Bachman was in error. So what.

          From a strictly historical view, JQA was the SON of a Founder. But, a Founder which, by definition, is inclusive of the Constitution’s Framers and Ratifiers of the US Constitution, JQA was clearly NOT a capital “F” founder. Period. Fullstop. End of the needless cover-up.

          So, Ms. Bachman made a mistake. Big bloody deal. We don’t need to waste valuable time spinning on her behalf. And, frankly, I don’t think she’d appreciate it either. I mean this attempt to spin a mistake into something else is soooooo embarrassingly Leftist. Let’s not do that to ourselves, or to Michele.

          Besides, we should be encouraged that some on the left actually knew who JQA was. That in itself is completely mind-boggling!

          • acat

            There was the John Wayne / John Wayne Gacy thing, then there was the “founding son” thing, and there was the “flake” thing.

            At what point does she go one mistake over the line?

            Mew

            (and yes, the rules are totally different for the Dems… so what?)

          • BA Cyclone

            It was only a mistake of interpretation by the media, who were happy to trumpet the “boy is this lady stoo-pid!” line that she either had the person mixed up, or the town mixed up, or both.

            None were true.

            Of course the smear is already ’round the world 683 times by now…

          • BA Cyclone

            It was only a mistake of interpretation by the media, who were happy to trumpet the “boy is this lady stoo-pid!” line that she either had the person mixed up, or the town mixed up, or both.

            None were true.

            Of course the smear is already ’round the world 683 times by now…

          • barleycorn

            To what do you refer?

            I’m sure you aren’t blaming her for Chris Wallace’s rudeness so what mistake did she make that was related to a “flake”?

      • runner12

        My favorite portion of what you said is how the Left reduces the Founding Fathers to 10 men. These are from the same people who have all but forgotton Samuel Adams (cousin to John Adams), whom Jefferson called “the Man of the Revolution.”

        But he is an “inconvenient” truth to them, as he was a devout Christian and an abolitionist to boot.

      • patriotdadinsandiego

        In my point of view, every man who served with honor in the Continental Army was a Founding Father, as were the merchants and patriot citizens who supplied the army with food, supplies and material needs at their own personal cost. Every woman who stayed at home and raised their children while their husbands were away at war (Abigail Adams anyone?) or nursed the sick and wounded, or countless other serices to our nation during the Revolution and the years after was a Founding Mother. Every person who yearned for liberty and was willing to risk all for the Cause was a Founder – every one.

        JQA, who was with his father in France and the Netherlands after the Declaration was signed, shared his family’s love of country and Spirit of 1776 – as was the whole generation of American Patriots who served their country at it’s first hour of need.

        Honestly, this whole argument makes me sick and is another fabrication of the left to distract and mislead the public.

        • gekster

          from wiki:
          Molly Pitcher was a nickname given to a woman said to have fought in the American Revolutionary War. Since various Molly Pitcher tales grew in the telling, many historians regard Molly Pitcher as folklore, rather than history, or suggest that Molly Pitcher may be a composite image inspired by the actions of a number of real women. The name itself may have originated as a nickname given to women who carried water to men on the battlefield during the war.

          I would say eveyone who contributed to the birth of this great nation was and is a founder.
          In reality, the left want you to forget and take this away.
          I say we don’t let them.
          God Bless America.

          And may I be the first to give thanks and tribute to those who gave us such a great nation on the 4th of July.

          the original:

          Hope I can spell right, I seam to have got some dust in my eyes.

          And of course, this is great.

          and I finish with this:

          Please enjoy the Holiest of American days, and please don’t let the left destroy this country, if not for us, then for the children.

          (My daughter had to type after the first vid [Hi, I'm Jenny] cause of to much dust in my eyes)

          • David123

            Contrast those videos with those of Obama’s spiritual mentor, Jeremiah Wright.

    • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

      JQ Adams served as secretary on the diplomatic delegation sent to Paris to negotiate the end of the war. He did not fight in the war but he was active in many areas.

  • http://www.neoavatara.com/blog neoavatara

    I agree with Steve…this is the leftist media simply trying to catch people in a trap. JQA was certainly an integral member of our early nation. Calling him a ‘Father’ or not kind of misses the point.

  • sandbun

    prior to Bachmann’s claim where someone considered him a Founding Father?

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    Introductory level U.S. History course usually draw a distinct line between JQA and Andrew Jackson. Adams belong to the founding generation while Jackson represented the frontier. I have taught at several institutions and with several different texts. All make that distinction.

  • A_Texan

    Google Books is invaluable.

    1. Historian Gary Wood agrees and disagrees.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=ZTGsL51IKpIC&pg=PA27&dq=%22quincy+adams%22+founding&hl=en&ei=lbYLTr-PKqGEsALLzbyOCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22quincy%20adams%22%20founding&f=false

    He was not a “Founding Father” but “contributed to the founding.”

    Although you’ll note that his definition of “Founding Father” arguably includes JQA, who held a major office prior to 1800, and was an author of important Founding documents, if you include America’s foreign policy among the Founding.

    By the way, you’ll note that Wood’s discussion of JQA, the Founding, and slavery supports Michele Bachmann’s point of view. JQA effectively spoke for the Founders, and he affirmed that slavery was adverse to the Founding. I wouldn’t be surprised if this section was the source of her info.

    2. Here’s another suggesting he perhaps fell right at the margin of the definition of Founding Father
    http://books.google.com/books?id=xrjYyO6okQEC&pg=PA128&dq=%22quincy+adams%22+%22founding+father%22&hl=en&ei=abgLTt6WOYzIsQLeqPyPCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=%22quincy%20adams%22%20%22founding%20father%22&f=false

  • A_Texan

    http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ_HX7BIUJsC&pg=PA40&dq=%22quincy+adams%22+%22founding+fathers%22&hl=en&ei=f7oLTs71J9KGsgKK2NWaCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCDgU#v=onepage&q=%22quincy%20adams%22%20%22founding%20fathers%22&f=false

  • sandbun

    He clearly worked with founding fathers, but it would take a stretching the excepted definition of founding father to call him one, which neither of the first two links you use to justify your claim do. I mean when you’re using someone who claimed that he “was really to young to fit the definition” as proof that he is considered a founding father, it’s pretty clear he’s not. The final one is trying to make a point about the religion of the founders and finds Quincy convenient for what he wants to write about, it gives no real justification beyond that to include him – and noticeably while using Founding Fathers earlier in the paragraph and throughout most of the book switches to just Founders before the list that includes him.

    Both Oxford and Webster’s dictionary says a founding father was a member of the American Constitutional Convention. When you’re changing the accepted definition, even according to the people you quote, in order to justify making what someone you said sound less ridiculous, you’re doing it wrong. He was an early president and helped pave the way our early history went and certain traditions, but he was not a founding father. That has a specific meaning, and he doesn’t make the cut. There’s no shame in that, except for people determined that change facts to suit personal wants.

    I swear some people here would find some way to justify there being 57 states if a candidate they liked had said it instead of Obama.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Feel free to petition for reinstatement, but make sure to tell Erick you were the dope shilling for Obama and whining about Bachmann.

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    By sandbun’s definition, neither Thomas Jefferson nor John Adams were Founding Fathers. Neither man attended the American Constitutional Convention.

  • Thomas_Alan

    I think the most important thing to note is not whether we agree with her statement that John Quincy Adams was a Founder. I think educated people can debate that. Personally, I would say “no”, but I recognize that Adams was one of the nation’s top diplomats in the Washington and Adams administrations and could be considered so by some.

    No, the question is, whether Bachmann knew what she was talking about when she said the controversial statement. If you watch the clip it’s clear that SHE DID. She stated that Adams was a “young boy” when he went with his father overseas during the Revolutionary War. That’s an accurate historical statement. She made her declaration with full knowledge of the (at least basic) bio of the man.

    Case closed.

  • rightwingmom52

    with what the Founding Fathers wrote and how they governed as about who they were. We might have something to talk about then.

  • A_Texan

    In classing the Presidents, Jackson is the first post-Founding President, while Monroe and JQA are the last of the the Founders.

  • http://stevemaley.com Steve Maley

    …parsing candidates’ every public pronouncement at this level seems absurd.

    The minutae of history would help a candidate win on Jeopardy, but that’s not what the Presidency is.

    The press heaped the same kind of scorn & ridicule on Reagan, the best President in my lifetime. It’s what they do.

  • runner12

    defeats a liberal argumernt. Well done kipling!

  • rick57

    Although he was not physically present his correspondence ws instrumental in the writing of the Constitution. I have “The Debates of the Constitution” parts 1 and 2. Part 1 covering the period 10/17/1787 thru 1/12/1788 covering debates in the press and private correspondence and in the State Conventions Pennslyvania 11/20 thru 12/15/1778, Connecticut 1/3-9, 1778
    Mass. 1/9 thru 2/7, 1788 and part two; Debatres in the press 1/14 thru 8/9, 1788 and in State Conventions SC 5/12-24/1788; Virginia 6/2-27, 1788; NY 6/17 thru 7/26, 1778; NC 7/21 thru 8/4, 1788. As I said he was not physically present his fingerprints are all over the Constitution.

  • Tbone

    Well said.

  • rightwingmom52

    .

  • http://jhpruitt.blogtownhall.com/ kipling

    I was taking sandbun’s argument to its logical conclusion and demonstrating how absurd it was.

    Rest assured, I consider Jefferson a founder.