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The End of The Herman Cain Campaign

 

I rarely get seriously angry with politicians, but today is an exception.  I am seriously angry with one politician, and he isn’t on the left.  That politician is Herman Cain.  The reason I am this angry with Cain is because I actually liked him before now. I liked his straightforward style, his economic acumen and his real world experience. Cain was not my first choice for the nomination because of his lack of experience, but I was happy he was in the race and pushing some common sense solutions.  That feeling has completely disappeared this week.

First, I need to provide some background for what led to my anger.  As many of you are aware, the Washington Post ran a despicable smear piece on Rick Perry the other day, one that I will not link to.  Hugh Hewitt has a pretty good response to it here. Just to be clear, the story was not about Rick Perry using the N word or even condoning it, but instead it was about the N word being written on a rock by someone else on a piece of property that Perry’s family has spent time on.  That is like someone being blamed for the thoughts of everyone who has ever owned the house or apartment they are currently residing in.  Many of us have been fighting and speaking out about media bias and the use of the race card against conservatives for years, but this is one of the worst examples I have ever seen.  This really is not about Rick Perry or whether you like him, but instead the general outrage all respectable people should feel about false insinuations of racism.

Most conservatives are tired of being accused of racism for not agreeing with every leftist policy and talking point.  These attempts diminish real racism and create a political environment where policy debates become impossible.  As I have said before, the left now consistently uses the term racist to actually mean someone who opposes their policies.  Those same policies have created a culture of dependency and devastated minority communities for decades.  Herman Cain knows this or at least he should, so I was shocked to see him joining in on the attack against Perry. Obviously, this was a media trap that Cain fell for, but that is no excuse. This morning I made the mistake of turning on CNN where they were pushing this smear against Perry and they used Cain’s comments as evidence that this would be a serious issue for Perry.   Conservatives already have to fight the race card smears by the media and the left; we don’t need to have them confirmed by leaders in our own movement.  Most conservatives will not tolerate the unfair use of the race card against political opponents, which is exactly what Cain did here.  I believe this is a fatal mistake for the Cain campaign and I know I personally cannot respect him after this point unless there is an immediate apology.  Cain said last week that he could not support Rick Perry as the nominee “today”.  Well with his comments this weekend, I cannot today support Herman Cain as the nominee.  We already have one president who plays the race card against political opponents, we don’t need another one.   I will reconsider what I have said here if Cain issues an immediate apology for buying into the smear and promoting it, but thus far it does not seem like one is coming.

 

Update: It appears Herman Cain has responded to the controversy. While I appreciate him trying to walk back the comments, that is not nearly enough in my opinion.  His comments were much stronger than the walk back and have already been used by the media.  He needs to issue a serious apology and go out of his way to defend Perry at this point.

COMMENTS

  • Change Jar Conservative

    I had sat down at my computer thinking how much I liked Hermain Cain and it took about 10 seconds to find this piece and Erick’s piece.

    Okay, bring on Chris Christie.

    • freentn

      wanted him to do and being that Romney owns Clear Channel Broadcasting Network there is no doubt that Cain will be rewarded handsomely.

      • gekster

        Can you show the connection.

      • rechts

        Pretty hilarious conspiracy theory.

        • gekster

      • Bill S

        If you have evidence that Romney is influencing Cain somehow on this, then bring it on. If not, then STOP.

      • freentn

        .

        • freentn

          unsubstantiated” “this is all they’ve got to defend BO.”

          Rush says Cain now bashing Republicans over “Gay Soldier Question.”

    • blooch

      Seems like every time his supporters cut another sandbag away from the basket, he climbs up and cuts another gash in the balloon.

    • subvet808

      Ok so we all agree this was a smear attempt at Perry. We all agree that Mr. Cain should not have fallen for this rouse.

      But let us remember, Mr. Cain is not a politician and may not be aware of all the dirty tricks the lame stream media uses to entrap those they want out.

      Lets give him the benefit of the doubt. I bet he doesn’t fall for these kind of gottcha moments again.

  • Matthew Morris

    - Cain and Perry have a behind closed doors meting.
    - Perry and Cain emerge and offer a joint statement in unity oriented towards defeating President 0.00bama and everything related.
    - After official statement, Cain offers further comment on his emotional vulnerability to matters or race and racial sensitivity given his experiences in life.
    - Cain apologizes to Perry, Perry family, and the conservative movement. for taking the MSM bait and running with it.
    - Says he should have known better than to believe it, much less to ascribe such failings to Perry given his personal encounters with the Gov, as well as his governing record.
    - Perry nods in appreciative approval
    - Cain gets a little emotional; he’s feelin’ it.
    - Perry is clearly moved; he’s feelin’ it.
    - Maybe a tear or two
    - A genuine, heart-felt hug between two children of God takes place
    - Followed by a a, long, ironclad handshake
    - Hand in hand, shoulder to shoulder- turn to face the MEDIA and the left
    - United in purpose, spirit, philosophy, and objectives
    - Take THAT, Washington Post and friends!
    - Win, Win, and more Win for both and the rest of us as well.

    Sometimes I use my imaginative powers to make myself feel better after my main two candidates start letting me down… and soooo unnecessarily (well, Perry may have a mental problem with debating- but Cain’s error was soooo disappointing and unforced).

    • jerry39

      It’s like the race is who say the dumbest thing to torpedo their own campaign. BTW I read the Christie speech last week and there were at least 2, maybe 3 nods to the congressional gridlock being the root of all evil meme.

      They all have their flaws, but it should be down to Perry, Romney, and Cain now. The rest should get out and go back to building up conservatism.. Maybe Newt could stay in as a fall-back if the others do anymore imploding, but Bachman, and Huntsman, and Santorum (and of course Paul) either need to get out, or get nice.

      Yes that’s my opinion and I don’t begrudge anyone’s right to be in a primary.

    • The_Gadfly

      to support the other if he wins the nomination.

      And a significant problem here is that even if Cain doesn’t see that, someone on his PR staff should and then he should have sufficient trust so he can talk to the boss about it.

      • Matthew Morris

        Thanks for mentioning it… I bet there a few more ingredients that could be added that could help both parties further.

  • chbroussard

    I was really impressed by Cain early on…great resume, businessman not a career politician, and a class act. But that was then; this is now.

    Mr. Cain’s comments regarding Gov. Perry have now, for me, passed the point of no return. Mr. Cain has shown himself to be easily influenced and easily used as a tool by the MSM and the likes of Al Sharpton. It’s fine for candidates to argue their different stance on the issues, but Mr. Cain has joined in the politics of personal destruction.

    Mr. Cain, your time demonizing someone would be better spent on Barack Obama. There are tons of fodder there, and most of it is a lot more damaging than a stupid rock.

    • freentn

      he brought it on himself.

    • highlander1754

      Ask him any questions and he stumbles over it and starts talking about his 9,9,9 plan. He is also the biggest warmonger of all the republicans, wanting more money for the never-ending wars in the Middle East. Right now the media is making Cain into something he is not. He is not in the top three candidates. Telling the world you had cancer and winning the Florida Straw Poll does not turn one into a serious candidate for president. Ron Paul dominates the Straw Polls and is summarily ignored by the press. Cain is now shamelessly promoting Romney for president. He supported the RINO in 08 and will do it again. Never a disparaging word to be said about Romney. Mr. Romneycare is the perfect candidate in “conservative” Cain’s opinion. Nothing else needs to be said about his political persuasion and it’s not conservative. Tired of hearing about this character.

      • freentn

        General Colin Powell or Secretary Rice.

      • snowshooze

        And some of the questions do not merit any answer.
        I haven’t seen a piece on the rock controversy this morning, I would hope he chills on that.
        I do not at all like his endorsement of Romney.
        So far, that is the biggest flaw as I see it.

        • Teapartier

          His comment was not a big deal. He is not making it an issue. At least he did not call people who did not agree with him “heartless. Cain is the better of the two and hopefully he will be our nominee.

      • rightwingmom52

        Care to back that up?

        Let me guess. You support Ron Paul who “dominates the Straw Polls and is summarily ignored by the press.” Never a good word for any other candidates. Always tearing down rather than building up your own choice

        • highlander1754

          Read all about “conservative” Herman Cain. By the way I support
          Rick Perry.

          http://www.tomwoods.com/cain/

          • freentn

            I don’t see a smooth path to victory for him and if the election was today I would vote for Newt.

            But thanks for the info on Cain, the more I see of him, the less I like.

          • rightwingmom52

            . .
            .

  • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

    I don’t know which is worse:
    - the media making a big deal over words painted on a rock 30 years ago
    - Herman Cain stepping into the media trap and opining on the basis of a phony story
    - Cain’s opinion that it was an insensitive thing to use the N-word being compared with some great betrayal. I mean, its not like he cam out for mandates for goodness sake.

    Yes, it was a gaffe, but it was minor league, and he can do a Romney and change his mind, and Rick Perry will remind you its heartless to think otherwise.

    End of Cain campaign? Doubtful, but if it is: Does that make Newt the flavor of the month for October?

    • freentn

      who has been fair to all Races in Texas. WE DON’T LIKE IT WHEN A GOOD MAN is smeared by FALSEHOODS!

      • ihavehadit

        Perry is a true gentleman. But he needs to get a little loud like Christie, because that is all people like about Christie, he calls them all out. If only Perry would do the same. Let them have it with both barrels

        • freentn

          like President Reagan did with the Republican also-rans in 1980.

          • waitaminute

            Not even Perry’s campaign (since that was pretty much over before this whole hunting camp nonsense anyway). This is not the first gaffe Cain has made, nor will it be the last. And as gaffes go, this was not his worst by far. He survived the others and he’ll survive this.

          • sgove85

            This could not be more suprising! Herman is human just like all of us, We all make mistakes and being to critical of an event is something we have all shared in.

            Forgive him, stand behind him because he is a man of conservative principles, he is for this country not against.

            Show you compassion and forgiveness casting him out so quickly is being too critical and hypocritical for all of us have said and done the same.

            The standards we set for these candidates are too high that no person will meet the criteria. I am not telling everyone to settle for less but, ‘ COME ON MAN”

        • perry4prez

          If Perry gets as loud as Christie all they will do is attack him for being a Texan. When is the MSM going to realize that being a Texan is a GOOD thing. Texas has created lots of jobs during the recession, Texas values (God, guns and guts) ARE American values. I do not have the priviliege of living in the Lone Star State but I say GO TEXAS.

    • lineholder

      we all better hope that Perry comes out strong in the months ahead or we’re in trouble.

      Ironic, isn’t it? We could end up hoist in our petard if we double down on this scenario about Cain right now and Perry flops.

    • Matthew Morris

      Yes, it was a gaffe, but it was minor league, and he can do a Romney and change his mind, and Rick Perry will remind you its heartless to think otherwise.

      It is too character-revealing! Better now than later I guess….? I was really looking forward to learning more about Cain personally. A while back I learned he has released some sort of Gospel album some years back, and that alone up until now has elevated his standing in my mind, at least in matters of character, which is central.

      • Finrod

        That is, until his 2016 re-election campaign.

        The amount of pathetic whining about Cain’s one comment in this thread is pitiful. Half the people kvetching already have another favorite candidate and are looking for anything they can tar their candidate’s rivals with, and the other half are weak-minded fools that do nothing but whine about which candidates they Just Can’t Support Because That Candidate Did Something They Don’t Like.

        Well, suck it up, buttercup.

        Pissing and moaning isn’t going to defeat Obama. If all you can do is take potshots at our candidates and never offer anything constructive, then STFU, because you’re actively hurting our cause and helping Obama’s re-election chances. Ronald Reagan knew what he was talking about with his Eleventh Commandment, too bad so few Republicans take him seriously about it.

        NOT recommended.

        • wonkish1

          nt

        • lineholder

          I’ve got reasons of my own suspecting that a few of them are working directly with campaigns in some type of capacity and they’re trying to stir up grass roots support.

          If they want Perry to win, they’re going at this from the wrong angle. They need to tell him to “bring it”. Let him fight for voter’s confidence on the basis of merit.

          Their constant whining and groaning isn’t going to impress anyone. They think they’re stirring up grassroots support for Perry with this type of approach? How well did the Coffee Party work again?

          Any attacks they make against Cain would only get Perry soft support at this point, not solid support based on the merits of what Perry has to offer. With states moving up their primaries to January, Perry needs to be gaining solid support.

          What’s more, for voters like me, who have Cain at the top of their list but have been willing to hear what Perry has to offer, this approach they are taking is a major FAIL. I even saw one comment last night that Cain should just bow out of the race now over this rock brouhaha. What, Perry doesn’t have what it takes to win it on his own merit so he’s got to have the easy way handed to him on a silver platter?

          If that’s all he’s got, thanks but no thanks, I’ll stay with Cain.

          • perfectlyaged

            I don’t understand America…Obama can go to Turkey and tell those people that the Americans are arrogant, derisive and divisive and Eric Holder calls the American cowards…the Americans “cow-down” and take it. But, let Herman Cain use the word insensitive and the American people explode with such vile against Cain…it is unbelievable! That shows me we have a bunch of cowards in America when the Americans let Obama say you are arrogant, derisive and divisive and Eric Holder calls the Americans cowards…seems to me there is a lot of imbalance with Americans!!

          • freentn

            Pizza?

          • Jim Tomasik

            Oh my gosh. He is doomed, I tell ya! Of course this was way back on Saturday.

          • freentn

            it certainly is NO reason to support him.

          • Jim Tomasik

            dkfadkv

          • rightwingmom52

          • freentn

            We saw that one coming. It is the same Alinsky tactic that the democRats have been using for the past 3 years.

          • lineholder

            Get off the race issue. It isn’t a winning issue. You’re right, we’ve all have more than our fill of it.

          • Repair_Man_Jack

            If Herman Cain wasn’t the most qualified applicant for the job? Under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Cain would still receive preferential treatment. Even if it wasn’t necessary. Tell us what Herman Cain did that convinced you he was unqualified. Identify, specifically, which qualified, White or Asian applicant was rejected in Cain’s place. If you can’t do that, you cannot reasonably call Cain an Affirmative Action Candidate.

          • wonkish1

            ntt

          • earlgrey

            members of the media. MSM, you are officially a joke.

            I think the reason some conservatives and tea partiers are taking Cain’s comments so hard is because they have been accused of being racist on a regular basis merely fo rbeing conservative. In their view, Herman Cain yielded the exact same weapon that the MSM has been using on them.

          • Jim Tomasik

            gk

          • chbroussard

            You have nailed it. Your analysis above is EXACTLY why I’m upset with Mr. Cain. I sent some of my hard-earned $$ in the 2010 election to Tim Scott and Allen West. I have also sent $$ to Michael Williams who is running for a U.S. House seat from Texas. All three gentlemen are Black. I am not a racist and I resent being labeled as such. Mr. Cain should have been smart enough not to fall into the trap. But he did, and he needs to be held accountable. As an added note, I will vote for Mr. Cain if he becomes the Republican nominee. But at the present time, I’m disappointed in him. He probably would have gone up another 10 points in the polls had he admonished the rock incident for what it really is.

          • earlgrey

            Tim Scott and Allen West (as well as whoever was going against Rangel–Faulkner). I just gave some to Allen West again, as I really do like him. I am very proud that my republican party has 2 conservative black men. Let’s get some conservative black ladies in there too!

            I felt very betrayed by Cain’s comments on Sunday. Later, I got over it some when it was explained that Cain grew up in a different climate than the one I grew up in so he might have a greater instinct to go on the attack against that word (if that makes sense).

            Whatever happens, at least the Republicans can point to the fact that we are letting Cain rise and fall with his own talent and his own comments and not because of his skin color.

          • lineholder

            I’ve already been blasted for even attempting to present another side of this (i.e. that it’s spin, I’m making excuses, etc.) But Cain IS black, he grew up in the South in just prior to and during segregation. I do think it is possible that there could experiences that occurred during his younger years play into the response he made.

            Did he walk into a MSM trap? Yes, and he would gotten hit either way it goes. Even if he had gone with something innocent like “no comment”, the MSM would have portrayed him as setting back race relations, blah-blah-blah.

            Do I think he intentionally set out to smear Perry or his family. NO.

            Do I think he might have a found a better way to respond to the situation? YES. And I definitely wish that had been the case, because now the MSM amongst others are using to draw attention from the things that we should be trying to address.

          • earlgrey

            bound to be very different than for people raised when I was. this was pointed out in one of the blogs at Hot Air, and is the reason that I, myself, no longer have any hard feelings over it. I just question his judgement in not getting more details before commenting, which is a separate issue.

            Even if you look at people today calling each other that name, it is clear that the word has a different meaning now than it did then. If it did, than people wouldn’t refer to their buddies that way.

          • lineholder

            Depending on what those experiences were and how deep the wounds go that they caused, I think that regardless of what anyone’s expectations for any further apology coming from Cain might be, they aren’t going to get it. I’ve got a few things like that in my own life, that because certain experiences have been what they have, I’ll fail to meet other people’s expectations. In a heartbeat.

            But what really gets me about this is how it is being used. The MSM is very shrewd and we should never underestimate them for a second.

            By no stretch of the imagination do I buy into this nonsense the MSM is spouting that Perry is a racist. That’s a bunch of hooey.

          • lineholder

            and anything that is pre-rock invalidates everything else…or so they say!

          • runner12

            troubles me. With the exception of our trollish friend ( who I firmly believe to be a Leftist here to make mischief), all of the posters on this thread who have been offended by Cain’s comments appear sincere to me.

            To insuate that it is some kind of a conspiracy to drum up support for Perry is hurtful. To compare it to a Leftist hack attempt (ie the Coffee Party) to undermine the Tea Party is downright insulting.

            Cain’s statements were offensive because he made an incindiary comment based on a false story AND claimed non-support for a fellow GOP candidate if he were the nominee. The rock comment bordered on slander. No matter who someone is, right is still right and wrong is still wrong.

            In my mind, Cain has to be very cautious of his words because he has no past governing experience. All people have to judge him on regarding his character are his words and actions on the campaign trail. Up to this point, he has made an excellent impression. But do not be shocked when people are offended or turned off by his attacking opponents in the manner he did. You are asking people to disregard the primary metric they have for evaluating him.

            To be very fair to Cain, he finally did walk back his story on Hannity’s tv show last night. I wish he had done it before he realized how much it had hurt his campaign, but at least he did it. It was better late than never.

          • lineholder

            more broad with my statement than I should have. You’re right about that. And I do appreciate you’re calling me on it as well. I’ve often called other people on doing this, yet am not always as aware of it as I should be in my own response.

            So thank you. And I do mean that.

          • runner12

            favorite people here. You are honest and sincere and I have even more respect for you than I did before :) . Thabk you for taking my response so well as I would never want to offend you.

          • lineholder

            /

    • porkandcheese

      Since he has endorsed Romney this election.

      • Finrod

        If Herman Cain hasn’t dropped out, he hasn’t endorsed Romney.

        • porkandcheese

          It’s plain as day.

  • agconservative

    You weren’t the one that is being accused of racism.. It is the most despicable thing that someone can do in the political world because it completely destroys the candidate. Look at what happened to George Allen, once a party favorite. I do think Cain is rightly walking it back and can preserve something of a campaign, but it is ridiculous to pretend this will not hurt him.

    • freentn

      The negative reaction across the blagosphere has been intense.

  • harpsichord

    Rookies make rookie mistakes. This is a lesson he had to learn.To me, he still stands to the RIGHT of Romey and even Perry.

    It’s 3 months till the first primary. A lot is going to happen. I can’t believe what a hurry everyone is in.

    • porkandcheese

      That’s too late to make rookie mistakes. What if Cain is our Obama? Except the media will not cover up for a black Republican. They consider him an Uncle Tom.

  • perry4prez

    Why does Cain get to make gaffe after gaffe but Perry does not?

    • jerry39

      Seems like Perry is still in and a favorite despite his gaffes.

    • acat

      (null)

      • Michael M. Keohane

        When I first got interested in politics, my mentor was a “machine politician – a Democratic district leader in “Boss” Buckley’s Bronx. He told all new candidates and repeated to the “old” candidates that : if you are asked a question to which you do not know all the facts, don’t answer it.

        Using the conditional “if” does not work if the question was a trap placed by the opposition or the media – in those days, there was a difference.

        Forget about meetings between Perry & Cain – that is spreading the blame.

        Cain answered a personal question about Perry without making sure that he had all the facts. It is his grevious error and he should stand alone and make a straightforward public apology to Perry, Perry’s family and the American people.

    • The_Gadfly

      the expectations for him are different than for someone who’s time in front of the mic has been an opinion radio show.

      That being said, Cain doesn’t get to make gaffe after gaffe. He has maybe another 24 hours to walk this one back. After that you can stick a fork in his campaign.

      • The_Gadfly

        under my real name. I told them I think they stepped in it, and they’ve got no more than 24 hours to fix it. If they haven’t by then, I will be sending them a letter asking for my campaign contributions back, because while I still like him and his campaign, I can’t support a Republican who plays the race card.

        • freentn

          but if I had I would do the same thing and all Conservatives should demand their money back.

          Btw, Romney started smearing Gov Perry last night and BO is in Texas today.

          • Matthew Morris

            Force Cain to do the right thing…. and explain why he didn’t in the first place.

  • Tbone

    This is pretty much the extent of Cain’s foreign expertise.

    • perry4prez

      NT

      • freentn

        Though that Godfather’s Pizza is about as far removed from Italy as the cardboard box from Dominoes.

    • porkandcheese

      But if you order nachos, you are creating magnets for illegals.

  • wwwhank

    I don’t know why so may are not giving Herman Cain his due. The rock comment is over, time to move on. Herman is tearing it up out there on almost every form of Media. He was great on Fox today, killed it on Monday night when he spoke to a large group of potential donors. His book is well received. I could go on and on. Look, admit it – Herman Cain has arrived as a top tier candidate. ABC poll today shows him gaining momentum while Perry continues to slide and Newt is back down. It’s Romney and Cain sprinting out from the pack. Of course everyone on the track is trying to trip them up. But folks now that the media has Herman out there you aren’t going to be able to shut him down.

    • freentn

      http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/republican_presidential_nomination-1452.html

  • jkines

    no one gets angry at Mitt Romney for being an entitlement state apologist and a defender of the status quo with regards to our decrepit tax system.. Yet one knee jerk remark by Cain on a largely irrelevant topic is unforgivable? If any candidate in this race has done the unforgivable it is Mitt Romney for defending the entitlement state and our politicized and overbearing taxation system..

    I really hope Mitt isn’t the candidate because I would like nothing more than to vote against Barack Obama in 2012. I am not, however, going to vote to elect someone who would merely perpetuate his excesses.

  • highlander1754

    Cain is unable to come up with a single department, agency, or even program to cut. He was for Tarp and he was for the bank bailouts. This man is no conservative. And as a former chair of the Federal Reserve in Kansas City, he sees nothing wrong with the Fed and sees no reason to audit the Fed. Cain is about as much of a conservative as my St. Bernard when she’s hungry.

    • JSobieski

      The thing about Herman Cain that is somewhat refreshing is that he doesn’t try to talk the biggest game possible while putting up absolutely nothing in terms of specifics.

      The biggest delta in terms of talk to solutions-to-achieve-the-talk is Bachmann.

      Bachmann is against raising the debt ceiling one cent.

      Bachmann has no plan for cutting 34% of the budget in 2011 or any other year.

      So while Cain is “no conservative” in your view, at least he isn’t an “all talk, no plan” conservative like many others in this race.

      Unfortunately, the two most compelling plans are those of Huntsman and Cain, and Cain is the more conservative of the two.

    • Scope

      about proposing a national sales tax that would mostly hurt those that are already struggling.

      • tyman

        Scope,

        This shows Cain’s naivete when it comes to getting legislation passed. Someone asked him what would prevent 999 from becoming 12-12-12? Sounds like we’re talking fertilizer doesn’t it? I guess we could be…the organic kind.

        Anyway, Cain said that it would be in the way that he would recommend the legislation to Congress. Congress is under no obligation to do this, so what if they change it and add some things (which you know they will)? Will he veto his own bill?

        Sorry if you notice that I said this in another post the other day, but I think it’s an important point.

        Everybody’s saying that Perry has to get his plan out there. Why? For everybody to trash? Perry is already for cutting regulations, tort reform (where are the other candidates on this?), keeping taxes low, etc. With those ideals, I’m confident that Perry will do the right things to get the economy started.

        Romney’s typed up his ideas in detail. Great! Now what are the chances it passes like that? Given that we don’t know what the makeup of Congress will be, I’d say slim and none right now.

        I support The Fair Tax, but NOT the idea of having a sales tax and income tax. No more politically astute than I am, I see a HUGE TRAIN WRECK waiting to happen.

        Surely Herbcain can see this, can’t he?

        • Scope

          Perry’s introductory speeches were his plan. Lowering the corporate tax rates, tort and loser pays lawsuit reform, much less government regulations. I know he is for drill here, drill now drill everywhere we can to use our own natural resources. Sounds like the best jobs and economic growth plan out there to me. The others will probably never touch legal reforms, in fear of angering the trial lawys as Perry has done. Romney would never cut back on the regulations, and the EPA because he believes in man made global warming.

          In this hyper campaign season everyone is screaming for a detailed plan, and as you said, the president can’t promise or guarantee his plan, as it takes Congress to write and pass that legislation. That goes for all of the promises all of them are making. I couldn’t believe that I read in an article somewhere the claim that Cain is so popular because he is coming out with plans, and people don’t care what the plans are, they love the fact that he is coming out with some.

          The Perry fundraising report is promising. It proves that he has alot of big donors, which no candidate can win without. Cain can get a gazillion small donors, and even if they all gave the max, it still won’t beat the Romney and Perry numbers. It appears that the story I read about some Romney big donors going over to Perry is in fact true.

          • tyman

            I was excited when Cain first got in. Then reality set in about how much he would have to raise.

            The fact that Perry has raised so much money as governor in Texas and has an undefeated record in campaigns gives donors more to work with than the fact that Cain has never run for national office.

            I won’t rehash how Cain has stepped in it big the last week, but he has. Big donors are looking at that.

            If what I read is true, Cain has only taken in about $2 miillion this past quarter (and that was after it doubled the last two weeks based on his debate performance). As you say, the gazillion small donors won’t match Perry or Romney, and that’s why I don’t think Cain can last.

            It may be a feel good story for a little while, but I think folks will realize it’s between Perry and Romney.

            Besides this, Cain’s sucking up to Romney will come back to bite him., especially if he keeps it up. Not unless Cain is using his possible Romney endorsement a la Pawlenty as insurance in case his campaign goes into debt.

            The media built Herbcain up, and they’ll let him fall just as quickly should he pose a threat to Romney. Romney and the LSM have one thing in common: they will only show favor to someone as long as they serve a purpose. Once that purpose is gone, see ya.

            Scope, did you see why Roger Ailes hired Sarah Palin? It isn’t because she’s conservative. It’s because she’s hot and he knew she would get ratings. That’s what he said!

          • Scope

            but it isn’t surprising why Ailes would do that. Ailes has been moving more and more left for quite some time. Many know that Palin is not a conservative if they only look at some of her positions on the issues. Actually, if she was a conservative, she would now be out of a job at Fox.

          • defenseconservative

            Obviously, Congress passes legislation, not the President, but the President has the bully pulpit and the right to recommend any measures he deems necessary, under Art. II of the Constitution.

            Presidential candidates should not, and if polls are accurate, will not be allowed to get the nomination without specific policies.

            Perry’s vague platitudes about Texas, and the Texan economic environment, are in no way indicative of what he would do as President. On the other hand, the numerous crony capitalist scandals he has been embroiled in, and his big government programs (including the NAFTA superhighway), show that he would be a very bad President.

            Perry had nothing to do with TX’s economic success. The foundations for it were built before he became Governor.

          • Scope

            I say let’s get rid of all the candidates, and especially that idiot Perry who doesn’t even know what side to get out of bed on. He just looks up in the morning, spins the dial on his wheel of torture, and sees who to go after that day. You’re right he will just destroy this currently booming country just as he has Texas. Don’t anybody dare support that horrible crony capitalist Perry, he’s a thief and a liar. Thanks for letting me in on poop scoop.

            Sent via carrier pigeon to defensecon to his current location on the moon.

          • defenseconservative

            He’s merely taking credit for legislation passed by the TX state legislature. He didn’t destroy the economy, but neither did he improve it.

          • aesthete

            this seems to be very accurate. Good on Perry for not wrecking Texas, but I do wonder how he will adapt to a position with much more responsibility and a much more hostile legislature and press.

          • gekster

            Maybe someday it will be true. ;)

          • Danielle Davis (ocleverone)

            Sorry, couldn’t resist.

          • Scope

            and I had to look back up to who was posting that. I was sure I was going to see Obama.

      • defenseconservative

        It would help everyone except IRS Gestapo agents, lobbyists, and politicians. Don’t tell me they’re hurting.

        You’re probably just another propagandist for DC lobbyists, who oppose any serious tax reform per se.

        • tyman

          DC,

          I think Scope was talking about the 9% sales tax and NOT the Fair Tax.

          The Fair Tax truly would help, but I’m not sure that the 9% that Cain has talked about would remove all of the compliance costs, etc. that the Fair Tax would.

          As I said above, I just don’t see how that any of those rates stays at 9%.

          • Finrod

            It doesn’t do it quite as much as the FairTax, but it goes most of the way there. If the FairTax, at a 30 percent sales tax rate, is completely offset by the elimination of compliance costs, then a 9 percent rate is certainly going to be offset.

            Tax compliance costs are extremely high, and they’re wasted money. No conservative worth their salt can defend the current tax system; almost anything would be better at this point.

          • tyman

            as based on income. It offers no incentive to save.

            My problem with 999 is that it probably won’t stay at those levels.

            People that support a flat tax forget that that is more what Reagan tried to do in the early 80s. How long did it last before rates and deductions changed?

            You won’t get an argument against the Fair Tax here. Rick Perry likes the idea, too.

          • Finrod

            What I want to see as the endgame is the FairTax put into place and the 16th Amendment banished forever. But I don’t think we can get there in one swell foop, so I support 999 as the first major step to there.

        • Scope

          I’m a propagandist for the DC lobbyists. Heck who needs any tax reform. I say just raise everyone’s taxes to the point there is no paycheck left for anyone. Can’t let go of my DC penthouse, where would I ever hold all those inside the beltway cocktail parties, for the elitists that I love. Heck the taxpayer’s owe me everything I can steal from them. Have to go now, my Lexus is due at the shop shortly to have air put in the tires. Toodles. Have a nice day now. Thanks for the free ride.

          • Danielle Davis (ocleverone)

            Well done my friend.

          • gekster

            I thought you were just a country girl.
            (thinking Mary Ann on the farm).
            The things the internet can hide.

            (can ya lend me some money, I need air in my tires too).

          • Scope

            How much ya need? Would you prefer it in dollars or gold bars?

          • gekster

            I need something worth something.

            If ya give me gold, my kid would turn it in for scrap metal,
            like he does with everything else.

      • Finrod

        Since the FairTax eliminates all business taxes, and the amount of money businesses have to spend on taxes and tax compliance is approximately the same as the amount of the sales tax, according to the economists that designed the FairTax, they expect prices to stay about the same even with the FairTax added. It’s different for different industries of course, since some have more of a tax burden than others (for example, leather-making has some of the least tax burden, so would fare the worst), but the overall effect is a wash.

        There is nothing conservative about defending the existing tax system. The amount of money that individuals and businesses have to spend on tax compliance alone is obscenely high; they might as well be taking their tax compliance money out to a field and setting it on fire. Any system that wastes less money than the current system would be an improvement; the FairTax just so happens to reduce the cost of tax compliance to near the minimum possible. This is a Highly Good Thing and should be praised.

        If you had actually taken the time to read about what the FairTax is, Scope, you’d know this already. Instead, you flame and blather out of ignorance. Well, as the old saying goes, if you can’t be a shining example, you’ll just have to be a horrible warning.

        • Scope

          and from the last I checked I am still allowed to support what I want, not what I’m told I just better support.

          Go flame away somewhere else creep.

          • Finrod

            What’s YOUR plan to fix the horribly broken tax system then?

            You don’t have one?

            Then you support the current system, which is to say, you’re fine and dandy with thousands of pages of tax code choking the life out of American businesses.

            If all you can do is criticize others’ plans, then you’re part of the problem.

        • Jim Tomasik

          She said there was nothing conservative about having a national sales tax but she is all in the tank for Rick Perry.

          • Danielle Davis (ocleverone)

            or that Perry is proposing a national sales tax?

          • Scope

            where if you still support Perry here, there are some that will just try to shout you down, and criticize you for not supporting Cain, and obviously the Fair Tax also. Some are beginning to sound like writers for WaPo.

          • Jim Tomasik

            by Scope, I support Perry as well as Cain..

            Perry supports the FairTax. (I’m not basing my comment on his book either.)

            He also governs a state that excels without a state level income tax.

            As a matter of fact, I really hope Perry steps up his game soon.

          • Danielle Davis (ocleverone)

            If not, I am not sure I understand your previous comment.

            If so, aren’t you better than that?

          • Jim Tomasik

            I was pointing out that she was disparaging Cain for doing what Perry is doing.

            If that is a swipe, so be it.

          • lineholder

            As much as I admire and respect Cain, he does have his faults. I’d like to see Perry bring it. I’ve been thinking in the last few days that the ball’s in his court and he could defuse this whole rock flap very quickly if he chooses to do it.

            I’m really sick and tired of seeing our candidates let the MSM lead them around by the nose. It’s time for our guys to start being assertive and let it be known that they are going to stay focused on the issues, not all the diversionary tactics that MSM is using.

          • Jim Tomasik

          • lineholder

            I understand where you’re coming from and why. And I’m not trying to tell you or anyone else what they should do. I just think we need to get back to focusing on the issues rather than the personal.

            Your call, and I’ll respect it.

          • Jim Tomasik

            over who has better plans to right the ship.

            It does not even look like Perry gives a rat’s butt about it. I’m sure he and Cain both would rather be talking about issues rather than keeping this particular topic boiling.

          • lineholder

            They truly are letting the MSM dictate this one, and it driving me absolutely nuts. Get over it already. Our nation’s in dire shape right now.

            We need someone who is going to step up to the plate and be assertive, and it needs to happen soon!!

      • JSobieski

        At least in theory, there are reasons to be supportive of such an effort.

        To say that there “nothing conservative” about going to a consumption based tax is incorrect.

        To say that it is risky to have both income and consumption taxes would a conservative thing to say.

        My argument against the FAIR tax is that the once you are talking about a sales tax rate in excess of 20%, you are going to have compliance/enforcement problems that you underestimate. At a rate of 9%, those issues are far less prominent.

        I don’t support the 999 Cain plan, but the plan is consistent with the conservative vision for tax reform.

  • highlander1754

    are draft-dodgers. Both had “better things to do” than serve their country in uniform. Romney thought a two year Morman mission was more important than serving in Vietnam. Cain thought working for the Navy, in the states, as a civilian employee, was more important than serving in a war where people
    are shooting at you. Better somebody else (without money to go to college) go and get shot at. I have no respect at all for draft-dodgers. Romney, Cain, Gingrich, the whole mess of them. Of the current crop of republicans wanting to be CINC, and be in the position of sending men and women to die, only Ron Paul and Rick Perry have served in active duty in the US Armed Forces.

    • Repair_Man_Jack

      otherwise, it would have been curtains for The Free World! Show me documentary evidence of both Mitt Romney’s and Herman Cain’s draft status during Vietnam.

      • gekster

        I’ve searched for both, and nothing comes up.

        on a side note: I think he feels a need to fill the vacuum left by freentn.

    • streiff

      stop this nonsense.

      Cain was not a draft dodger unless you call people who take the home mortgage deduction tax evaders. He was enrolled in college and then went to work for the US Navy as a civilian upon graduation. Completely legit.

      Ditto with Romney’s deferment as a missionary. When he stopped being a missionary the law had changed to only drafting 18 year olds by a lottery.

      Stop this nonsense.

  • highlander1754

    A draft dodger is someone who is of draft age and instead of opening himself up for the draft he voluntarily decides to do something else that will keep him from being subjected to the draft. The term fits any man that got student deferments, went on church missions, or did whatever to avoid serving in the US military. Romney and Cain of course did nothing illegal. No one ever said dodging the draft was illegal. They made a conscience decision to not serve their country in uniform. Now they want to be Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. I do not think any man that avoided service to his country is fit to lead that country into a war and command the soldiers that are fighting that war. I don’t care what political party they might be in. Biden is also a Vietnam War draft-dodger, so is Gingrich, and so was Bill Clinton, who was probably the worse of them all.

    Examples of draft-avoidances.

    Seeking and receiving a student deferment as in the cases of Bill Clinton, Joe Biden and Dick Cheney. This would be considered evasion if false or misleading academic credentials were used.
    Applying for a job in an “essential” civilian occupation and seeking deferment on those grounds – often this required a letter from the potential draftee’s employer to be accepted. After receiving deferment as a student, 2008 U.S. Presidential candidate Rudolph Giuliani received further deferment after his occupation as a law clerk was deemed “essential” by the Selective Service.
    Non-pacifist churches have at times deferred missionaries as “divinity students”. During the Vietnam War the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints became embroiled in controversy for deferring large numbers of its young members.The LDS church eventually agreed to cap the number of missionary deferments it sought for members in any one state; however, this generally did not stop LDS missionaries who lived outside Utah such as 2008 presidential candidate Mitt Romney from receiving deferments with relative ease….

    The better educated and economically advantaged were in a better position to obtain deferments through loopholes or technicalities.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_evasion

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      to you trying to cover your a$$ one hour and seven minutes after you were specifically told to drop the subject. Don’t expect this to end well.

      Over and under time is 6:24 EDT.

  • highlander1754

    I posted the definition of draft-avoidance. Call it whatever you want to call it. That will be my last word on the subject.

    • streiff

      We’ve strayed away from banning the profoundly stupid, probably out of some misplaced sense of fairness. And in these PC times I’m fine with that.

      What I won’t put up with is disrespect. I’ve told you twice to cease and desist this tragic self-beclowning because not only was it embarrassing you, though that apparently doesn’t bother you, but because it was embarrassing the rest of us.

      Not only was my advice not heeded I was virtually mocked.

      Now you can take your insights on military service and peddle them elsewhere. And you can do that knowing you’ve been banned by an airborne infantry officer.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    Until Cain trots out would-be victims of the “painted rock” where their lives were ruined by it… then he hasn’t gone Bachmann…

    There’s nothing to see here folks… move along… just common mud-slinging, gonna get out to the MSM eventually, why not now kind of business…

    Cain said it was “insensitive”… that’s an opinion, not a condemnation…

    Perry shouldn’t even bother with these charges from anyone… he shouldn’t have to explain himself, and all he simply needs to do to move on is ask in retort, “what about my record shows racial insensitivity?”

  • Kyle-MI

    I think we was caught in a media trap. He could still easily walk it back if he admits he was given insufficient information and was too hasty to criticize Perry. My advice would be to not just offer some tepid apology, but to aggressively go after the MSM for this laughably weak smear.

  • agconservative

    Sorry, but he already criticized Perry for it twice, so he can’t say it was one off-guard interview. Like I said, I am willing to reconsider if he apologizes, but the media is already running with the smear and his comments.

  • iidvbii

    Perry allowed music to be played in Texas while It’s govenor that contained the dreaded “N” word. According to unnamed sources it appears that there has been wide spread incidents of texans listening to what is commonly refered to as “rap” all across Texas in recent years. Perry as the states govenor has yet to respond. We are also waiting for the Cain response although he is widely expected to condemn the insensitive display of racial intolerance. Perry is now officialy unelectable proclaims the Washington Post, New York Times and MSNBC.

  • http://www.fpcr.org balloonjuice

    opportunity to walk it back and he kind of did sort of in a way after a fashion. He said “If what Perry says is true…” as though WaPo has more credibility with him than the Perry camp does.

  • Scope

    is better than no attention. As EE said, he and his campaign are more interested in attention, and anything that will get his name out there yet again, and his face on the national MSM shows. Oh yeah, he is getting much attention for his race baiting, but I do believe he will be sorry for the attention he has created. I thought this was the most optimistic candidate out there, and that all of the candidates should try to emulate him. Huh, what a joke.

    Yes, the media is already using his face and statements to proclaim Republicans racists, with the face of a Republican.

  • freentn

    sad.

  • Scope

    empowerment zones. Just heard Brett Baier say that, and said that Cain will put that plan out shortly.

    This guy is so gone he is like yesterday’s news.

  • Scope

    He said he was. Many believe he is. Is he? Tax breaks for inner city empowerment zones? God in heaven save us from this man.

  • snowshooze

    For Godfathers.
    That is how he salvaged that mess.
    I will await the plan.
    This is what the Primaries are for.

  • freentn

    He shut down Pizza Parlors that he couldn’t make profitable?

    So far we have accepted at face value that Cain is a excellent businessman but what proof is there of that really and how did he get that job at Godfather’s and the Federal Reserve? Did affirmative action have anything to do with it? Is that why he supports affirmative action?

  • snowshooze

    Where many would shrink from such action knowing well jobs would be lost, that one might be criticised, that one might be making a bad decision, but onward, and let the chips fall where they may.
    Can you imagine Obama making such a decision?

  • ihavehadit

    He has had too many jobs, he doesn’t stay anywhere for long. I am very concerned about his affirmative action position.

  • snowshooze

    And I haver far more background and crossover expirence than you might want to believe.
    Number of jobs… has little to say.
    I was fired twice I think.
    And my jobs were in completely dissimilar fields.
    Restaurant, commercial fisherman, logger, mechanic, circuit board manufacturer ceramic board technician..diver..welder, machinist… hayfield engineer ( Put the bales on the truck ) truck stop attendent..
    More.
    This is a huge plus.
    If you look at his Resume’ it is impressive.
    He is just another guy to me. Same as Obama, I think Obama is less than half a man though. Dishonest. In every way.
    I am content though to let Cain try to save his own hide.
    But I will grant him that chance. I ain’t no gem myself.
    I think that those who are entrenched in a singular career focus…
    come up real short. Possibly brilliant..in only one direction.
    Carreer Politicians… gads. What could be a worse background?
    Nothing I can think of.

  • californiagold

    Earlier this year Herman Cain did an interview where he opposed the US killing of terrorist Anwar al-Awlaki. Instead, Cain wanted al-Awlaki dealt with in the court system because al-Awlaki was a US citizen. This is the same position taken by Ron Paul.

    Here’s a link to the video….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPQw1xkAEow

  • perry4prez

    “Cain said it was

  • freentn

    now?

  • californiagold

    Cain now supports Obama’s decision to kill al-Awlaki. This is a flip flop that would make Mitt Romney proud.

    More importantly, Cain’s foreign policy agenda needs to be examined more deeply.

  • freentn

    and the democrats. Democrats like to parse the meaning of every word including “is.”

  • freentn

    is as important as what he said.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    in

  • perry4prez

    O wise one tell me this, just what is Perry supposedly being insensitive TO? An attack of hemherrhoids? Of course not, Cain is saying he is insensitive to RACE. This does not take a 5th grade reading comprehension to figure out.

    As for Perry being “fragile” you have to respond to every allegation no matter how outlandish, the 2008 campaign provide that. Rapid response is needed from the grassroots. Staying above the fray is for LOSERS.

  • The_Gadfly

    but he’s right on this one. Cain made an unforced error and he needs to walk it back. This is The Big 0 and the “racist” police officer all over again. He should have ALREADY apologized for the statement. I’ll give him a little more time, but it may soon be time for me to choose a new candidate, and I was planning on supporting Cain until he won or dropped out.

  • californiagold

    Opponents of Perry’s immigration policy said he’s overly sensitive towards hispanics….Now his opponents suggest he’s insensitive towards black people. This is all getting too confusing….and ridiculous.

    I give Cain’s campaign three more weeks before it implodes.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    All I was suggesting is that Cain didn’t call him a racist… by Cain’s own admission he wasn’t familiar with all the details… go read my first comment you dolt…

    It was an opinion not a condemnation… inaccurate or not Perry doesn’t need to prove he’s not a racist to Cain or anyone… I didn’t suggest Perry ignore it… I suggested Perry ask anyone throwing the racist label to point to anything in his record that might corroborate the opinion… sheesh you really are an amateur

  • The_Gadfly

    this is the sort of thing Cain has to be aware of, and watch out for. He’s playing in the big leagues, and he can’t play the naive grandmother roll. Yes, he can walk it back, but the window is closing fast. As I posted above, given all of the chatter in the conservative blogsphere about the Post article, Cain should have ALREADY walked this one back. I should have been hearing about the “back peddling” on the evening news.

  • wonkish1
  • Jim Tomasik

    dsdsdsd

  • lineholder

    *

  • wonkish1

    I’ll tag him here.

  • rightwingmom52

    . . .

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    Do you demand purity in the message? or Competence to make rhetoric real?

    You either are with Cain because you believe in HIM and his abilities to govern this nation, not because he made an ill-advised comment on a story not fully developed because he didn’t have the sense that he was being duped by Chris Wallace…

    If you think making a gaffe, or going after the competition using generic terms that opine on the behavior, not the character of another candidate, than… I must say… Where is your priority?

    Competence in governance, or Competence in responding to the media on gotcha questions?

  • highlander1754

    Case in point. The minute he told the world he had cancer all the media was saying how great his performance was, how steady Romney was (never do they criticize Romney, it aint gonna happen), and how terrible Perry was. The debate boiled down to a repeat of the second debate, with Bachmann and Romney rehashing old news about Perry wanting to give the cancer drug to 12 year girls and social security. Old news. But the moderators wanted a war between Romney and Perry. To me Perry looked tired. So what. Tomorrow is another day. Unlike Romney he’s had a job as governor and has been running the state, not running for president for the last 6 years, and not taking a position on any controversial issues of the day. Getting back to Cain. A day or so after the debate Cain wins the Florida Straw Poll. The next day you would have thought this guy had won the presidency. He was on every talk show in the world and all the talk was about his “surge”. Cain, Cain, Cain, it’s all the media could talk about for days. The reason this is all crap is because one week prior
    Ron Paul won the California Straw Poll. Where was Ron Paul on the talk shows? Why didn’t they talk about Ron Paul’s “surge”. Paul also barely lost Iowa. The media MAKES OR BREAKS you folks. If they had not jumped on the Herman Cain bandwagon he would still be polling in the single digits. The GOP basically dispises Ron Paul so he is never mentioned in a favorable light. The media has also tried everything in their power to do a Sarah Palin on Rick Perry, and that is to destroy his chances. The GOP elite wants a Washington RINO as president and will spend millions of dollars to get Romney the nomination. Well people vote, and until Romney proves to me he can beat Perry in a Southern State, he is not the hand-on favorite for the nomination. A Romney president, probably with Cain as his VP, will all but destroy the conservative movement in this country. Both are for big government. Richey Rich Romney and Tarp Cain.

  • Jim Tomasik

    I’m not interested in having another one to replace him.

    By the way some folks are going on about this, you would think Rick Perry was off in the corner with his thumb in his mouth crying because of that mean ole Mr. Cain hurt his feelings.

    I’m confident that Gov. Perry is mature enough and he is man enough to suffer this slight injustice without seeking an apology. To bad some of his supporters are not.

    Same thing goes with this silly stuff about Cain not supporting Perry in the general election. Perry shriners are making mountains out of mole hills.

  • traversecityconservative

    I DOUBT IT. Everybody’s “I’m done with Cain” schtick makes me laugh. People seem to care more about what Herman says about a rock than they care about the economy, national security, illegal immigration, energy production and real things that affect their lives. Give me a break. Herman would have gotten raked over the coals if he hadn’t said anything to condemn what was on the rock, whether it had to do with Perry’s family or not. This country is going downhill fast. People need to realize what’s at stake and stop having insignificant discussions about rocks. The media tried to take out two Conservatives at once – both Perry and Cain. Any one who left either candidate after supporting them earlier is a fool. Quit being played. We’re smarter than that.

  • lineholder

    “corralling the cats”, I have some questions about our system. Are you familiar enough with it for me to ask, or should I wait until another time?

  • lineholder

    !

  • Jim Tomasik

    If I don’t know, I’ll be glad to try and find out.

  • Jim Tomasik

    you can also email me at:
    jim (dot) tomasik (at) gmail (dot) com

  • lineholder

    I feel like the beggar with his hand held out, but so what.

    Overall, the way things work at this point is that as our deficit rises, this drives up taxes. Is there any way to have something along a flat tax rate that is fair across our society as a whole directly correlated to our deficit level in a manner that drives taxes down and improves accountability in government spending?

  • lineholder

    ,

  • Jim Tomasik

    From my perspective,

    When it becomes clear to the tax payer how much they are really paying in taxes, they will be more inclined to become outraged at the ones spending their money. Right now, a lot of people pay no taxes but they do vote. At least they think they don’t pay any taxes. These folks are quite willing to vote for people who are happy to spend the money contributed by those of us who work.

    The income tax is a liberal’s tool for wealth redistribution, class warfare and social engineering.

    The income tax is also conflicts with the forth amendment:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    I do not agree that we should be using the tax system to control spending unless it is the spending caused by adherence to the system of taxation itself. Otherwise, it would be social engineering. At least as I understand the term.

    The FairTax is a flat tax on consumption and it is not perfect but it is light years better than what we have now.

    The clerk at the store does not ask how much money you make when you make a purchase. It is none of the clerk’s business whether or not you are married and have X number of dependents and you are not compelled to provide such either.

    Switching from a system that drives businesses away from the US to a system that makes the US a tax haven will inject trillions of dollars in capital into our nation’s economy. That in turn will increase tax revenue.

    The economic downturn showed that in the state of GA, the sales tax was much less impacted than the states income tax. Given that as a model, it seems clear to me that government revenues would stabilize under the FairTax.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    The Tax System is a revenue system. It is how the government collects revenue. It is how Congress is able to manipulate the many variable rules and code in order to support lobbyists and their clients and create an unfair market. i.e. General Electric is able to qualify for certain types of deductions that allows them to skate with a very LOW tax rate, whereas other companies they compete with may not qualify for those types of deductions, and have to pay the very high 35% corporate tax rate. There are other ways Congress plays these games with regulatory legislation that authorizes the Executive branch to build organizations to carry out the regulation by legislation.

    I know this is a very simplified explanation, and I don’t mean to be condescending… but I am trying to suggest that the Tax system shouldn’t be complex… which is why the FairTax, FlatTax, and 999 plans are being presented.

    999 is a segue into FairTax it’s the combination of a 9% income tax on Business, and Individuals, and a 9% consumption tax or ‘national sales tax’. Eventually the income taxes fade away, and we move to a straight FairTax on consumption only.

    The FlatTax is solely an income based tax rate proposed at 10%. What qualifies as income? That would all have to be worked out.

    The FairTax is soley a consumption tax based on a national sales tax, but it doesn’t address how to prevent taxes being created down the road if a Democratic super majority congress decides they will add VAT’s (Value Added Taxes).

    Now that we’ve distinguished our Tax system, and its proposed fixes…

    Only 1 thing will drive accountability in spending… and that is a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution. It has to be done a specific way to ensure the budgeting process is not overlooks, and that it doesn’t prevent Congress from addressing things that may be out of scope in the budget. But that’s the only way to reign in spending, nothing else will force accountability.

    To answer your question… no there’s no way to correlate cause and effect on 2 things that haven’t been implemented.

    However, our deficit and our debt is caused by not enough revenue to pay the costs of entitlements and all other government spending.

    So the best way to increase revenues to the government is to grow the economy, thereby widening the tax base…

    Where generally conservatives and liberals differ on the matter is that conservatives want to see free markets be set free, liberals want to simply bleed the turnip and then default on promises while picking winners and losers, and then running cycles of bleeding the turnip on the biggest winners… so they can re-distribute the wealth for what they deem “necessary”.

    Let’s simplify it… America’s credit card is maxed, we take on loans to make our minimum monthly payments from investors with the promise they’ll earn a degree of interest on the deal. By making our minimum monthly payment, we are able to start spending again.

    Washington doesn’t want to stop spending, their answer to the problem is to raise more money in taxes.

    Moderate Democrats scream the same old mantra… “just raise taxes”…

    Liberals suggest that there should be class warfare on the rich and corporations, because they assume all they need to do is a shakedown of fat wallets, and we’ll have plenty of money to keep on spending like we do.

    Moderate Republicans assume, that all we need to do is reduce entitlement spending, and give up spending on things that may be “sacred cows” for specific programs near and dear to the Republican base, they hope to walk a tight rope while juggling blind folded… and if they drop something, we’ll just hope nobody notices when it comes to re-election.

    Conservatives recognize the 2-fold problem of why our Economy suffers… America’s current policies scare off investors by not dealing with our spending issues responsibly. America’s current policies also cause the economy to stagnate and shrink because we scare the hell out of the people that make the Economy run efficiently.

    We need to revamp our tax code. (Any of the proposed ideas is fine with me, so long as we don’t shrink the tax base and we don’t leave opportunities for future Congresses to manipulate the program, and utilize the program incorrectly.)
    We need to pass a Balanced Budget Amendment to change the way we spend.

    Repealing Obamacare would be a big step in reversing the spending spree, but repealing it completely won’t be enough to fix the economy in total, it’ll just stop the fast bleed.

    We need a conservative President that can make these things happen, but they need to recognize what is needed most, and they need to spend all their political capital to make it happen once they’re in office. They may go down as the MOST HATED PRESIDENT of all time… but if they accomplish the 2 solutions of BBA, and Revamp of our tax code, while reduce federal regulations… time will prove them to be mount Rushmore material…

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    Both for you time and for the answer. I’ve sent an email in the interim following up on this, so you’ll know what it’s about.

    It’s the specifics and details that I’ve not been able to wrap my mind around, so to speak. This helps a great deal. Thanks again.

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    I know my ignorance must be showing, but how else does a person learn other than to ask questions?

    From what has been said so far (not just in these two statements above but from others as well)…in simplest terms, our current system stinks and has become too complex and bloated out of proportion, and both flat tax and fair tax proposals have issues that haven’t been and may not be resolved. However, both the flat tax and fair tax proposals have advantages over our current system that should be seriously considered.

    I guess what I’ve been wondering is if we know where the weaknesses are in other alternatives to our current tax system, is there no way to overcome those weaknesses? What kinds of mechanisms might be used to do so? That sort of thing.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    The FairTax and the FlatTax as Jim said… are FAR better than our current tax system…

    To put it simply… the reason we don’t go to a Fair/Flat Tax is political…

    1. The very people that could do it, have “Sen.” or “Rep.” in front of their name, and if they did, they will no long have a means to directly provide lobbyists, or constituents with quid pro quo… without an opportunity to rig things for their benefit, how else would they be able to be re-elected over and over and over again?

    2. Change is a difficult thing for markets and people to adjust to, all markets are familiar (to a degree) with what they have to currently do to ensure they don’t get an IRS probe… Changing the current system, in small means to get big gains, is unrealistic. They could potentially make Bush Tax Cuts permanent, and provide more deductions, lower the corporate tax rate, eliminate Alternative Minimum Tax, re-work all other non-income taxes… but ultimately it is so complicated, all of this is the equivalent of bailing water on the titanic with a teaspoon. Its just not enough. We have to increase the tax revenues, and reduce spending. Otherwise we will hit a critical mass, and go the way of Greece, where our biggest lenders who stand to make a substantive loss if they keep us afloat, also risk total loss of their investment… thereby putting the world economy at risk.

    So… the best way to increase the tax revenues isn’t to raise taxes on our highest earners, its to make more tax paying Americans highest earners in all markets… even the ones that are outside our domain.

    The argument behind a flatter tax rate whether its income based or consumption based, or a hybrid of these two… is that because of the simplification, and reduction in overall tax burden for MOST high earners… there will be a ground swell of growth and prosperity which will increase consumption in this nation, and grow jobs, and attract corporations to move to our shores and hire our people and increase consumption in our nation… ergo… growing revenues…

    So the Democrats are getting sly, they don’t say “raise taxes” they say “we need to raise revenues”… and that is true… but the disagreement is in the HOW do you raise revenues… their plan is quid pro quo by status quo.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    So to address the “downside” of a FlatTax or FairTax…

    Some say that future Congress may get greedy and come up with wile ways to bilk tax payers for more money… by Value Added Taxes… that balloon the cost of products with each transaction to market… so raw material is taxed when sold, refined material is taxed when sold, component is taxed when sold, end product is taxed when sold, product is retailed and sold, and taxed again. And there are many variations, but just a simple example.

    Some people fear that the FlatTax will be increased to beyond a 10% flat rate on income, or that if the income base shrinks the whole system bottoms out… as for the FairTax, and any national sales tax could cause market flux depending on your state and local taxes when products and services are bought and sold… (although smart States will compete with others – and large blue states will rely on the large population to eat the losses and provide for the largesse of their government body… but its really not known what will happen with exception to theory).

    I’m all for let’s pull the trigger and see what happens, if it proves to be a flop, it won’t take but a year to realize it… and 4 years to do something about it… but that’s politics. Above average intelligent people making decisions that would normally be above their paygrade, but in reality they get to adjust their own pay…

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    Fair Tax has an almost insurmountable hurdle of having to repeal an amendment. And a flat tax would only remain flat for approx. One, maybe if we are lucky, two sessions of congress.

    Then the political desire to reward certain groups at the expense of others will be overwhelming.

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    the changes in terminology that liberals are using (fortunately).

    Summary so far: Even if there are ways to overcome weaknesses in our current system or other alternatives, our biggest obstacles are (1) the nature of politics and (2) resistance/adaptation to change.

    And I agree with you that increasing revenues via growth and development in the private sector of our economy. But this is where someone like myself who looks at broad spectrum societal influences usually runs into a lot of questions.

    Altering the tax code in and of itself isn’t necessarily a prelude to altering the societal conditions that exist re: poverty, the poor quality of education, etc. It won’t necessarily encourage businesses to consider inner city areas where poverty tends to be highest as a location for a new business that might provide jobs. Even if it did, the fact that the quality of education in some of these areas is so low prohibits and/or limits the type of jobs that citizens would be qualified for.

    The two factors that I’ve mentioned directly correlate to dependence on social programs and welfare assistance. A decrease in dependence on these programs directly relates to a decrease in spending, which is another alternative that could be considered to reduce our deficit.

    As it stands now, these factors also influence other areas of government spending, such as healthcare (via access to providers in these areas driving patients to ER for treatment), housing programs, urbanization programs, etc.

    Unless and until we find a way to address these issues as well as attempting tax code reform, we’re still leaving the door wide open that encourages the status quo liberals use that you concluded with above.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    but I’m not arguing for or against… I’m just explaining from the 10,000ft view…

    Personally, I think your comment reflects perfectly why Herman Cain is calling for the 999 plan, because its a hybrid, and it certainly sound intriguing… but…

    As I stated in my most recent diary, (and I think you may have been the only person to read it. thank you)… we need to become vigilant… this is going to take a LONG time to undo this mess, and its going to require people to become educated.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    This is a great article from a trusted source that may make the arguments for and against Fair/Flat taxes

    FreedomWorks breaks it down here

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    this economics blog.

    http://cafehayek.com/

    Cafe hayek, it is created by Russ Roberts and Don Boudreaux, Professors of economics at George Mason University.

    It has absolutely the most lively debates about economics and I have learned a lot from it.

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    Justin, I did read your diary, but I’m still very much so in the learning curve on this one so I didn’t respond then.

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    I’m a fan of Ludwig von Mises blog… Hayek was mentored by von Mises. F.A Hayek was a great contender for classical liberalism and Austrian schools of economics.

    More people should be familiar with Hayek’s work… it lets the air out of the balloon for most Keynesian thought.

    I love these:

    and ROUND 2

  • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

    Check out the links and videos above.