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Tragic and dishonest distortion of the Commerce Clause

The impressive sounding Commerce Clause has been used for roughly 80 years to steal our liberty and allow the exponential growth of federal power. That any judge ever assented to the bludgeoning and torture of a simple sentence in The Constitution is regrettable, but that conservative lawyers have aided that process through timidity is a travesty.

To begin let’s take a look at the infamous Commerce Clause. Its location in The Constitution is Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3. It is simply drawn and easy to understand.

The Congress shall have Power To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

That is the Commerce Clause (CC) in its entirety. There are mildly qualifying clauses that touch on the CC in Section 9 but they serve to LIMIT congressional power not expand it.

Did you notice what the CC does not say. It does not say that Congress can regulate commerce. “What”? you shout, “Are you crazy”? “The Commerce Clause does not give Congress the power to regulate commerce”?  And my answer is , no, not explicitly.  Read the clause again :

The Congress shall have Power To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Can you see it now? That simple clause certainly does not give Congress power over all commerce! How do I know? Because if the Founders had wanted to give Congress sweeping power over all commerce they would have just written  “Congress has the power to regulate all commerce”? But they didn’t use those words. Instead they identified three types of commerce that Congress “shall have the power to regulate”.

1. Commerce with foreign Nations

2. [Commerce] among the several States

3. [Commerce] with the Indian Tribes

Its so simple and plainly written. Commerce between individuals was NEVER intended to be covered by the Commerce Clause.  The non-mysterious goal of each sub-clause of the Commerce Clause was:

1. Ensure that the Federal Government could regulate commerce with other countries. This is an obvious need that is tied directly to national security.

2. Ensure that the nation would form a single market as opposed to the various states setting up trade barriers amongst themselves. This again is tied to national stability and security.

3. When this Constitution was written  “Indian Tribes” were still quite potent, often were aligned with foreign powers, and thus represented a significant threat to national stability and security.

So it can be understood that what the founders were concerned with here was not the ability to regulate what we as a free people buy and sell, but rather the power to set national policy in areas that involve other governmental entities whether foreign, state, or tribal.

If you won’t take my word for it then let us turn to the words of James Madison writing in Federalist #42. I know it is a bit long but I beg of you a few minutes time to hear Mr. Madison speak to us across the ages:

The powers included in the Third class are those which provide for the harmony and proper intercourse among the States.

Under this head might be included the particular restraints imposed on the authority of the States, and certain powers of the judicial department; but the former are reserved for a distinct class, and the latter will be particularly examined when we arrive at the structure and organization of the government. I shall confine myself to a cursory review of the remaining powers comprehended under this third description, to wit: to regulate commerce among the several States and the Indian tribes; to coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin; to provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the current coin and securities of the United States; to fix the standard of weights and measures; to establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws of bankruptcy, to prescribe the manner in which the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of each State shall be proved, and the effect they shall have in other States; and to establish post offices and post roads.

The defect of power in the existing Confederacy to regulate the commerce between its several members, is in the number of those which have been clearly pointed out by experience. To the proofs and remarks which former papers have brought into view on this subject, it may be added that without this supplemental provision, the great and essential power of regulating foreign commerce would have been incomplete and ineffectual. A very material object of this power was the relief of the States which import and export through other States, from the improper contributions levied on them by the latter. Were these at liberty to regulate the trade between State and State, it must be foreseen that ways would be found out to load the articles of import and export, during the passage through their jurisdiction, with duties which would fall on the makers of the latter and the consumers of the former. We may be assured by past experience, that such a practice would be introduced by future contrivances; and both by that and a common knowledge of human affairs, that it would nourish unceasing animosities, and not improbably terminate in serious interruptions of the public tranquility. To those who do not view the question through the medium of passion or of interest, the desire of the commercial States to collect, in any form, an indirect revenue from their uncommercial neighbors, must appear not less impolitic than it is unfair; since it would stimulate the injured party, by resentment as well as interest, to resort to less convenient channels for their foreign trade. But the mild voice of reason, pleading the cause of an enlarged and permanent interest, is but too often drowned, before public bodies as well as individuals, by the clamors of an impatient avidity for immediate and immoderate gain.

The necessity of a superintending authority over the reciprocal trade of confederated States, has been illustrated by other examples as well as our own. In Switzerland, where the Union is so very slight, each canton is obliged to allow to merchandises a passage through its jurisdiction into other cantons, without an augmentation of the tolls. In Germany it is a law of the empire, that the princes and states shall not lay tolls or customs on bridges, rivers, or passages, without the consent of the emperor and the diet; though it appears from a quotation in an antecedent paper, that the practice in this, as in many other instances in that confederacy, has not followed the law, and has produced there the mischiefs which have been foreseen here. Among the restraints imposed by the Union of the Netherlands on its members, one is, that they shall not establish imposts disadvantageous to their neighbors, without the general permission.

The regulation of commerce with the Indian tribes is very properly unfettered from two limitations in the articles of Confederation, which render the provision obscure and contradictory. The power is there restrained to Indians, not members of any of the States, and is not to violate or infringe the legislative right of any State within its own limits. What description of Indians are to be deemed members of a State, is not yet settled, and has been a question of frequent perplexity and contention in the federal councils. And how the trade with Indians, though not members of a State, yet residing within its legislative jurisdiction, can be regulated by an external authority, without so far intruding on the internal rights of legislation, is absolutely incomprehensible. This is not the only case in which the articles of Confederation have inconsiderately endeavored to accomplish impossibilities; to reconcile a partial sovereignty in the Union, with complete sovereignty in the States; to subvert a mathematical axiom, by taking away a part, and letting the whole remain.

It is astonishingly clear that regulating commerce between individuals was not the intent behind the Commerce Clause.  Read again Madison’s remarks regarding “Indian Tribes”:

The power is there restrained to Indians, not members of any of the States, and is not to violate or infringe the legislative right of any State within its own limits. What description of Indians are to be deemed members of a State, is not yet settled, and has been a question of frequent perplexity and contention in the federal councils. And how the trade with Indians, though not members of a State, yet residing within its legislative jurisdiction, can be regulated by an external authority, without so far intruding on the internal rights of legislation, is absolutely incomprehensible.

It is obvious from Madison’s remarks that any controversy or confusion among the “federal councils” was not along the lines of modern day argument regarding the Commerce Clause.

Consider also these lines:

The necessity of a superintending authority over the reciprocal trade of confederated States, has been illustrated by other examples as well as our own. In Switzerland, where the Union is so very slight, each canton is obliged to allow to merchandises a passage through its jurisdiction into other cantons, without an augmentation of the tolls.

Notice that Madison is addressing the trade between States, not trade or commerce between individuals.  His concern is with one state taking advantage of another via tariffs, tolls, etc.

Madison’s choice of words is also telling here:

I shall confine myself to a cursory review of the remaining powers comprehended under this third description, to wit: to regulate commerce among the several States and the Indian tribes;

Notice that amid all the controversy of the Constitution that the Federalist papers were meant to help calm, Madison views the Commerce Clause as calling for only a “cursory review”. A clause that did cause quite a lot of uproar at the time was the so called “Necessary and Proper Clause”. It was realized that this clause contained the seed of unlimited federal power, yet if not the “Necessary and Proper Clause” then what? For many years both clauses were largely applied with restraint and wisdom. When a one sided interpretation of the Necessary and Proper Clause was misapplied to a dishonest reading of the Commerce Clause, the slippery slope became an all too evident danger to our liberty.

I can come to only one conclusion after reviewing the foregoing and looking back at all that has been done by the Federal Government over the past 80 years:  We the people have been badly snookered. We have been and continue to be sold out by our elected representatives, our judiciary, and the vast majority of the members of the bar. Complicit in this has been our media and both major political parties. And yes we too, We The People, bear a heavy responsibility for not being better informed and quicker to object when our freedoms have been lessened or removed.

The Founders gave us a Republic based on individual responsibility and individual liberty. Over the last eight decades we have allowed it to be taken away piece by precious piece.

COMMENTS

  • funwithknives

    Dead White Guys know, any ole’ way?
    Besides, We as a people are so much more enlightened and can perceive so much more…..
    As noted in the above post Constitutional mean a limit on Federal Powers. It is not called not called ” The Chains That Bind Gov’t ” for nothing.

    Stop me before my head explodes, please????

  • rednation

    As I note in my Diary:

    Obamacare not lawful

    Much of this took off with a 1942 decision that will live in infamy.

    It is now to the point where those who ask where such authority comes from are openly mocked by politicians…

    • dajeeps

      I don’t know if the court will go that far, for who knows what else is based on that reasoning that will be upended, like maybe the NRLA. Wouldn’t it be nice?

      • dajeeps

        Getting dyslexic, I guess.

  • Viet71

    The best reasonable hope is that the Supreme Court will place some clear limits on both the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause.

    I don’t see any modern day Court over-turning Wickard v. Filburn.

    • barleycorn

      We no longer have the luxury of debating the finer points of constitutional law as we all get richer and richer.

      The train is barreling toward a cliff of debt and irresponsibility and something really bad will happen soon unless profound structural changes are made.

      Clear limits on both the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause would be an excellent place to start.

    • richmccreedy

      Just remember this commerce clause jurisprudence hasn’t always existed. In fact, there was quite a long time (as in more than 30 years) where the court struck down (and usually correctly) law after law as being outside of the Federal Governments commerce power. And then in one fell swoop, the Court basically un-did all of that previous jurisprudence and didn’t bat an eye.

      They can do it again (although probably not right now).

      And, like barleycorn said, simply setting some limits on the commerce clause power would be a good start.

      • Viet71

        Some here, perhaps, believe the 1964 Act to be beyond congress’ power. I MIGHT fall into that camp.

        But popular opinion is strongly the other way.

        I’m a realist.

        • garfieldjl

          You can argue that the mandate is a violation of the 13th Amendment to the US constitution.

          Forcing someone into a contract where they have to provide a good or service (in this case their money to another private entity for something they quite frankly don’t want) simply because they are alive could be considered similar to involuntary servitude.

          Yeah I know some people think that’s a crazy argument, but if you think about it, the Individual Mandate could be argued to be a form of involuntary servitude.

          • JSobieski

            A contract of adhesion does not equal slavery. Nor does pedestrian indentured servitude—which is how many white people came to the New World

          • Viet71

            For me, a mid-westerner, the Civil War is over.

            I adhere to the Constitution.

          • garfieldjl

            As much as the Democrats love to prance about calling us all racists, I just think it is amusing that we could in fact go after the individual mandate on the basis that it violates the 13th amendment and is an attempt to enslave the American People.

            Obama is supposedly a Constitutional Scholar, okay if they came back with a ruling that he violated the 13th Amendment, imagine how it would make Democrats and Obama in particular look.

          • lapert

            You don’t find it the least bit odd that not a single brief chose that route? Is it maybe possible that you really don’t know what you are talking about? That maybe your definition of slavery here doesn’t actually pass any legal muster?

          • garfieldjl

            The reason has to do with nobody having been forced into these contracts or having to pay the fines yet.

            A suit on the basis, I’m bringing up can’t happen until that part of Obamacare kicks in.

            That said, that doesn’t mean the Justices can’t include in their opinion that it violates 13th amendment in addition to the 10th amendment, or the Commerce Clause.

            The argument I presented is a valid one, just not one we can use quite yet, it’s a good backup plan to force the courts to revisit the issue though.

          • lapert

            Why would the ability to ask for injunctive and declatory relief be different if it was unconstitutional under the 13th amendment?

            And the 10th amendment? How do you propose arguing that whit medicare already in existence?

          • garfieldjl

            You can’t sue when the mandate hasn’t taken affect yet using the 13th amendment.

            There is however some undo costs being placed on the states right now which gives them grounds to sue via the 10th amendment.

          • lapert

            You review Knight v Knight from the 9th district court of appeal in 1993, Beltran v Cohen from the N. CA district court in 1969, Wicks vs. Southern from the 9th district 1956, Abney v Campbell from the 5th district in 1953 and Brogan v San Mateo from the 9th district in 1990 and explain why they don’t apply here as the correct application of the 13th amendment (hint – your theory is just not based in law).

          • Dave_A

            The obvious point of the Commerce Clause, is to allow Congress to regulate commerce that ocurrs outside the jurisdiction of any individual states.

            Since Art 1 Sec 10 pretty much strips the states of the powers of nationhood, if Congress can’t regulate commerce that crosses state lines, US borders, and such no level of government could.

            So yes, the Commerce Clause as originally written WAS supposed to allow regulation of commerce between individuals – IF said commerce occurred across state or national lines.

            The odd thing is, today almost all commerce in physical goods – save for the sale of used merchandise between individuals – is interstate or foreign commerce… At some point, almost everything you buy crosses state lines or is imported from overseas – and almost all of it is sold by multistate/multinational corporations.

            While Wickard v Fillburn expanded the Commerce Clause to cover ‘almost anything’, the disappearance of regionalism & separate state economies caused by the economic development of this country & the world, has greatly expanded what sort of things can be regulated by the Feds in a non-Wickard world…

          • barleycorn

            You make the same mistake that many modern conservatives make when you buy into the liberal notion that everything must be regulated or else someone somewhere will get away with something.

            To your mind when Frank in Vermont buys something from Lucy in Florida there just HAS to be a government regulator that is empowered to meddle in the transaction at both ends. The fact that Vermont is regulating Frank and Florida is regulating Lucy is not enough regulation for you. After all the people in Vermont and Florida are a bunch of unstable asses who can only be kept in line by the federal government.

            But putting that aside, no matter how you or me thinks the Commerce Clause should have been written, or what it should have regulated, the fact is that until its amended it reads as it does. To the extent that there is ambiguity as to its meaning, surely our best chance to understand it comes from the words of the men who wrote and adopted it.

            A common sense conclusion is that a document that was drawn up to limit federal power would not have knowingly included a clause allowing unlimited federal power.

            So no, unless you have evidence from primary sources that contradicts the actual wording of the CC or the words of James Madison quoted above, the Commerce Clause as originally written WAS NOT designed to regulate the actual commercial transactions between individuals whether or not said commerce occurred across state lines.

          • morrigan

            .. your constitutional arguments are completely worthless.

            >”Yeah I know some people think that

          • garfieldjl

            Government has the power to tax, it is in the Constitution.

            Being born a US Citizen does not make you property of the government. Also US Citizenship is a 14th amendment situation, and you are actually allowed to renounce your citizenship, you realize that.

            However, I’m looking an an interesting tidbit about a prior Supreme Court case.

            United States v. Kozminski, 487 U.S. 931 (1988)

            [quote]2.threatened or actual state-imposed legal coercion [/quote]
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

            Remember here the individual mandate carries with it a penalty, if you don’t enter into a contract with another private entity simply because you exist. So this isn’t something like the draft.

            When they use the term state, in Supreme Court lingo that means government (at the local, state, and federal level).

            It’s kinda like Feudalism if you would like another example to how I’m looking at this.

            The government has the power to tax, not the power to force people into contracts with other private entities simply because they are breathing. The fact that Obamacare uses a PENALTY is how the 13th Amendment comes into play, if they hadn’t been trying to play word games like they did, this wouldn’t be a plausible method of going after Obamacare.

            However, they made the mistake of using a penalty instead of a tax.

        • barleycorn

          I haven’t looked at how the Commerce Clause affected the CRA but going back and re-writing history is not what I hope for. What is important is that the CC be properly understood and applied going forward.

          I have a lot of confidence in the ability of the four conservative justices to stanch the flow of blood without knocking over ancient apple carts.

  • http://www.timelyrenewed.com timelyrenewed

    This is an excellent analysis. So, what’s the solution? Supposedly “conservative” Presidents, Congresses and Supreme Courts have all failed to significantly stop the growth of the federal leviathan, let alone roll it back. Instead we must now resort to the ultimate power the framers left us – amendment of the Constitution, not to change it but to restate and re-affirm its original limits on federal power. This would include returning the commerce clause to its original meaning of simply preventing states from impeding the flow of goods from other states.

    Of course, Congress will never initiate such amendments. Therefore, the fist step is to reform the amendment process to enable the states to initiate and pass amendments without having to go through Congress or the unused and archaic mechanism of a convention. See http://www.timelyrenewed.com

  • Pingback: weiterlesen

  • richmccreedy

    I’d recommend to anyone out there wondering where a good start would be to get back to decent commerce clause jurisprudence, I’d suggest reading any recent Thomas opinion on the Commerce clause since the mid 90′s. Or, you can probably just wait for this decision as I’m guessing he’ll end up writing his own opinion again suggesting the need to reverse course on the entire line of cases over the last 75 years.

  • Viet71

    A mudguard case. Illinois required all trucks to have curved mudguards. Most state permitted either mudgaurds or straight mudflaps. There was no federal law on the matter.

    The Supreme Court struck down the Illinois requirement as placing an undue burden on interstate commerce. And correctly so.

    This case bolsters the diarist’s view of the Commerce Clause.

    Dave A.: While I do not dispute your view (certainly the Katrzenbach v. McClung (1965) view), it is the “modern view” — a view, I suspect, never envisioned by the Framers.

  • Dave_A

    I’d say the Founders never envisioned the direction that development would take the nation – to a point where almost no commercial activity occurs entirely within a given state, and almost everyone both works for and buys most of their products from a national or multinational corporation.

    Thus, without ‘enhancing’ or ‘re-interpreting’ the literal text, the un-expanded, non-Wickard power to regulate interstate commerce covers far more than it did back in the old regionallistic, each-state-has-a-local-economy days.

    For example, in a world where milk produced in Wisconsin by a local dairy firm, is delivered to your door by their employee, the local milkman… Or where it’s sold at mom & pop’s general store… Without Wickard, there’s no ‘in’ for federal regulation.

    However, in a world where milk sold in Wisconsin is produced in New Hampshire, and sold to you by a multinational retail-giant like Wal-Mart… The Feds don’t need Wickard or any expansion of the literal text to impose regulations on that transaction.

    The point of the ICC was to allow *someone* to regulate activities that exceeded individual state jurisdiction, and to prevent the states from walling off their economies with local regulations (something we seem to have ignored in modern times, when it comes to (for example) California’s unique air-pollution laws).

    The fact that less and less activities are INTRA-state these days, isn’t an act of liberal activism, but of economic evolution.

  • aesthete

    I do agree that intrastate regulations would have increased, even under a correct reading of the Commerce Clause — simply due to the interconnected and globalized nature of the economy.

    However, the *type* and *kind* of regulations which are justified through the Commerce Clause have expanded tremendously due to Wickard — whereas you have some corner case regulation and tax and spend powers being used prior to that point, Wickard essentially made federal and state authority in inter and intra-state commerce essentially equivalent. Even expanded interstate regulations wouldn’t have been equivalent to a general police power for the federal government.

  • Viet71

    no text

  • barleycorn

    “I

  • kowalski

    At this juncture I think it’s important to understand what the Individual Mandate was designed to accomplish, and it’s a very specific and technical thing:

    The Individual Mandate exists as the centerpiece of the legislation because it creates a “functional nongroup insurance market.” And that is a very specific term with a technical meaning. The constitutional justification for the mandate, such as it exists in Obamacare, was engineered because the economic models require a “functional nongroup insurance market” to work – one that allows nobody to opt out, one that allows nobody to slice and dice the coverage into “groups”, one in which nobody – sick or healthy – are not preferred, and one in which nobody can be turned down because of preexisting conditions. Now, if you have preexisting conditions in today’s insurance market you can still get insurance. But you will have to pay more. Similarly, if you are sick and you run off the end of your policy, your insurance company may drop you.

    The Individual Mandate is the central requirement of the plan because it creates the specific kind of market the economic models supporting it were constructed around.

    I know this from a very reliable source. She’s a member of my family.

  • kowalski

    “One in which nobody – sick or healthy – is preferred”

  • kowalski

    Is not just designed to guarantee the power of the government to force you to buy a product – it is *necessary* to establish the precise kind of market that the economic modeling says is needed.

    It is literally using the Government’s power to *create and enforce* a specific, very carefully designed *type* of commercial activity and obligate that everyone in the country participate.

    Otherwise Jonathan Gruber can tell you that the plan falls apart.

  • kowalski

    Whether this really means, in practice, that the healthy participants in the market will de facto subsidize care for the sick and people with preexisting conditions, if they are honest they will tell you: “Yes.”

  • kowalski

    In Jonathan Gruber’s graphic novel:

    http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/health/gallery/health_care_graphic_novel/

    http://www.boston.com/Boston/whitecoatnotes/2012/01/clipboard-mit-economist-jonathan-gruber-graphic-novel-health-care-law-draw-cheers-jeers/H87lyTPiLOUCyttvrxyy5H/index.html

    And you can buy it at Amazon.com for $8.28

    http://www.amazon.com/Health-Care-Reform-Necessary-Works/dp/0809053977

    It kind of amazes me that even at this late date, relatively few people have read it.

  • aesthete

    We can debate the extent to which this is an effective cost controlling mechanism as opposed to other potential alternatives — we can certainly debate whether or not it is legitimate government interference regardless of effectiveness.

    What cannot be denied is that costs spiral out of control without a mechanism by which one forces people into the insurance market.

    It is also a lie that it is Pareto optimizing (which is is essence Obama has been saying in promoting the legislation) — specific groups (young professionals and middle-class parents) are going to bear the brunt of the costs, at the very least in the short term.

    If the IM is struck down and the rest of Obamacare is left standing, we’re going to have a real problem on our hands if that legislation isn’t repealed.

  • deVere

    Healthy non-insureds are right now subsidized by everyone else, They know that if they crash their cars or motorcycles, or suffer a rare serious illness, any hospital will treat them without insurance. And if they have no substantial assets, medicaid will pay the bill.

    It is not often enough repeated that we already have universal health care in the USA People need health insurance primarily to protect their assets (if any) from seizure due to a serious illness, and also ( as the health care system has developed) to negotiate affordable health care prices. Without an insurer in the middle many health care providers demand much higher prices.

  • JSobieski

    The reason why cars, cell phones, and computers are relatively affordable is that companies sell lots of them—and can spread sunk costs over lots of units. Conversely, when the newest and greatest comes out—it is often very expensive for the opposite reason—relateively few people are paying all of the R&D and other sunk costs.

    So the danger with the argument that you raise is that it can literally apply to any market. If a business is inclined to produce until MR = MC, adding market participants benefits everyone in the market and one could say that everyone is subsidizing everyone else.

  • kowalski

    My cousin is an economics professor at Yale and her dissertation committee at MIT was chaired by Jonathan Gruber. She supports the individual mandate.

    I am not convinced that the legislation is the best way to lower health care costs. She’d probably giggle at me, but I’d prefer not to see a vast expansion of the federal government’s power to “create” a market, regulate the market and tax (or penalize) everyone in the country, even if the goal is a laudable and high-minded one.

    We really need a lot more emphasis on preventive care and cost controls for procedures, more doctors coming in as GPs instead of specialists, and quite a bit more common sense.

    BTW my cousin also thinks in a broad sense that federally-controlled health care eventually implies rationing of certain types of care. It has to if we’re going to cover everyone and the costs for certain procedures, particularly toward end of life, continue to spiral out of control in terms of their costs.

    So there are really several arguments going on here.

  • kowalski

    “Ok, maybe according to your models this will lower healtcare costs but what’s the price for our society in terms of allowing the federal government to exert this much control over people?” Once you do it with health care, you can *never* put that toothpaste back in the tube, so to speak.

    Particularly in a bill that we have to “pass so that everyone can find out what’s in it.”

  • deVere

    But not because your cousin is a Yale professor! That’s unfortunately no guarantee of rationality. Look at Paul Krugman, the Princeton Nobel Prize in Economics winner.

    Since insurance will not be priced for preexisting conditions, healthy people of all ages will wind up subsidizing sick people who otherwise could not afford insurance. Whether this is done by taxation supported Medicaid (as it is at present) or by forced puchase of overpriced insurance, it’s going to happen.

    What I wrote due to misunderstanding is also true, Uninsured people are currently able to freeload on the rest of us for two obvious reasons:

    (1) Due to our country’s well known commitment to provide health care to anyone and everyone in an emergency, these uninsured people do not face death due to lack of medical treatment if they were to suffer a sudden misfortune.

    (2) These uninsured people typically do not have assets to protect from the expense of catastrophic medical bills.

    So while what you and your cousin say is correct, it is also true that we are paying almost the same bill now, just in a different way. And often people with assets feel compelled to do things like getting divorced so the well spouse can retain assets and the sick spouse can qualify for government aid. Our current system does very much need fixing.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    I’d be really careful about taking the opinion of one of those very seriously. While they’re not as bad as statisticians, most of ‘em aren’t all that bright, I don’t care where they got their degrees.

    And, every time you’re planning on be impressed by a university degree, remember Obama graduated from Columbia and Harvard Law and was the editor of the Law Review. John Kerry graduated from Yale and Harvard Business.

  • Dave_A

    It’s very hard to live a life where most of your commerce is intrastate…

    Eg, I used to be self-employed before the Army – in IT.

    Every single physical item I sold/obtained for a customer, was bought in interstate commerce. It simply wasn’t possible to buy much if any computer & networking hardware or software ‘made in Wisconsin’ (where I lived & ran my business).

    The point is that when the US was founded, we were a very localized society – to the point where some people considered themselves citizens of a state rather than the US – because they lived their whole lives there & everything they did came from there….

    I’m not in any way calling the Founders rubes – but my point is that even without the Wickard decision & the intentional expansion of the commerce clause, a good deal of our lives today involve interstate & foreign commerce…

  • aesthete

    that the individual mandate may not be the best cost-controlling mechanism — it certainly isn’t from a Pareto efficient standpoint.

    IMO, the price mechanism is a mechanism that has been woefully underutilized in health insurance markets.

    However, ObamaCare completely and utterly fails at cost control if only the individual mandate is struck down — costs will go up astronomically without the mandate, and with the rest of what ObamaCare requires.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    That is just the benefit of spreading costs and economies of scale.

  • JSobieski

    As a practicing lawyer, every client asks me in the first meeting what I charge.

    Go to a physicians office and ask for an explanation of billing. In most offices, it is laughable. The person you ask is unlikely to even understand the question, after which they will ask you again for your insurance.

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    zapped congenital cataracts plus lens implants in both eyes. Prior thereto, I asked the financial person at my opthalmologist’s office what my out of pocket expenses would be. She looked at me like I had two heads and remarked that the surgery was covered by insurance – as if I shouldn’t be concerned. She told me I’d have to check with the insurance company, so I asked her how in the world they would know what the doc and the surgery center would charge. I had to press for a substantive answer which I finally got when I told them that I needed to budget for the co-pay, and if I couldn’t get a number, I’d just have to cancel or delay the surgery.

    The legal profession may get a bad rap in other areas, but at least we know what we bill per hour, and I’m accountable for every minute of my time as a paralegal.

  • acat

    There were price tags on all the frames, but no indication whatsoever of fees due for services offered.

    Cat’s eyes are fine.

    Mew

  • JSobieski

    but both of the comments above illustrate the point quite well.

    There is so much third party payor activity that it is very difficult to actually shop around and the providers are very much used to simply charging what the insurance companies will allow.

  • acat

    I think so …

    McCain, if you’ll recall, proposed treating insurance as a part of compensation for tax purposes, but offering a generous tax break…

    This would have simplified corporate accounting a bit, would have increased growth of non-corporate group policies, and a lot of the new sales would have been emergency-care-only + HSA.

    That, in turn, results in doctors having to do a better job of explaining what the fee is for a given routine service, etc. etc.

    Mew

  • JSobieski

    Of course, he never really explained his plan or took the time to sell it. I suspect he had little role in coming up with it.

    This will be analogous to much of Romney on economic policy. Don’t look for Romney to try and sell anything . . besides himself.

  • acat
  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    The Pod-Person Paul Krugman, who writes for the Times, absorbed him. But not his economic knowledge.