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Why McCain: The Nitty Gritty

By IL-Glock21 Posted in Comments (23) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »

I've been supporting McCain since the end of May of 2007. I've caught a great deal of flak over my preference and spent most of my time supporting a candidate who appeared doomed as his campaign nearly died as the year progressed. I was shocked by the comeback and elated at the same time. I've heard a lot of people jump on board because he is electable in recent weeks, but my support goes far deeper than the match-up polls that show him as the toughest GOP candidate for the Dems to beat as that can easily change in the upcoming months...

Inheriting a War:

First and foremost, the issue on my mind are the conflicts we are currently engaged in. There simply is no other candidate who has been involved in foreign policy issues as intensely and extensively as John McCain in the Senate and on the Armed Services Committee. While some bash his early education as being inadequate, it is hard to dismiss his hands-on education in actually dealing with foreign affairs for decades.

The conflicts we're fighting and the crucial foreign relations between not only our allies, but also our strategic allies and enemies will require someone who doesn't just rely on experts at the State Department but someone with a well rounded understanding of the issues to make the best decisions on the information that they're given when a decision must be made.

Perhaps if we were in state of peace, with few threats to stability around the world that could affect us, then a smart candidate will have the luxury of playing catch up. But the current wars, conflicts, and dangers aren't going to go on break while the next President tries to catch up on decades of foreign policy issues.

We have no choice but to switch horses mid-stream in this election... term limits (among other things) have our current horse stuck in the mud. That doesn't mean we should jump on to an untrained horse that we'll have to train in the middle of the stream to get across before we drown. We want that trained horse that already knows how to get across that stream.

I cannot knock any of the other candidates for lack of service or lack of family serving, it is a volunteer military under civilian control for a reason, but I can certainly trumpet the fact that McCain has learned first hand the costs of war and knows first hand not only the personal sacrifice but also the sacrifice of families of military service members during conflicts as he has children who have/are serving.

He will put his principles before politics when it comes to war as his unpopular but needed support of the surge has shown.

But the Commander in Chief is not the only Role of the President. On other executive powers I believe that McCain is also the best of the bunch.

Appointing Supreme Court Justices:

Probably the second most critical issue for me as a Constitutionalist are appointments to the Supreme Court, far more than any actual legislation they may or may not support. And as much as some fear that he'll use McCain-Feingold as some sort of litmus test for Justices, it hardly appears this is, or every will be the case. He has supported strict constructionist in the past and today, regardless of whether he felt they support any of his pet projects, as the National Review points out:

McCain called [John Roberts and Sam Alito] “two of the finest justices ever appointed to the United States Supreme Court.”

As McCain made a point of telling the audience in Columbia, “there may be as many as three vacancies on the United States Supreme Court” in the next presidential term. “It’s going to be a very, very important responsibility of the next president.”

His judges, he implied would be in the mold of Thomas, Alito and Roberts and, he vowed, “would strictly interpret the Constitution.”

Anyone who's known me long enough knows that Clarence Thomas is a personal hero of mine and knows that above almost anything else I will vote for a President that gets the best judicial nominees to get us closer to the limited central government described in the Constitution.

But there is the role of the president in legislation. Here McCain has some issue but he also shines in other areas.

Fiscal Conservatism:

Personally I think all of the GOP candidates are bit weak in fiscal conservatism, but I lean a bit libertarian on limiting the central government. And though Paul may be the best option on this particular issue, Paul really blows on more important issues of foreign trade and defense (among other elect-ability issues).

McCain is notorious for his battle against pork barrel spending. Claiming, verified by factcheck.org, that he has never pushed for pork barrel spending for his own State and even the National Review pointed out that he "has always been strong on the issue of containing pork-barrel spending" even while complaining about his votes on the Bush tax cuts.

McCain has been ripped on extensively for his tax votes during Bush's first term. You'll rarely hear too many complaints outside of his first term as there is little outside of an increase in federal cigarette taxes to complain about. The tax watchdog group, Americans for Tax Reform, gave McCain a lifetime rating of 82.7%, just slightly under the choice of many strong conservatives, Fred Thompson, who weighed in at 83.75% (democrats generally weighed in at single digits).

And the evil monkey on McCain's back? The Bush tax votes? Not so much. McCain proposed and supported an alternative set of tax cuts to Bush's at the time and was willing to support the Bush tax cuts with spending cuts. So he was never against tax cuts, just for tax cuts that benefited the middle class more than the upper class, and would have supported all of the above with reasonable spending cuts.

If that's not the definition of a fiscal conservative I don't know what is. Unfortunately many in the GOP seemed to believe they could "starve the beast" with tax cuts. That limiting federal revenue would somehow reduce spending from lack of funds to spend... which we learned only resulted in more federal borrowing with increases spending, and the associated deficits and debt that came with it.

McCain is both sides of fiscal conservatism... tax cuts and spending cuts. We need to give this man the veto pen.

Pragmatism in Environmentalism:

Two words: nuclear power. McCain is huge proponent of nuclear power and ending the nonsensical de facto prohibition on nuclear power expansion in the United States.

Four words: reasonable global warming stance. I know this issue drives many conservatives up the wall but one must look at how McCain frames the discussion. First off he readily admits that the scientists pushing this issue may be wrong with his "but what if we're wrong" explanation. The worst part of having a reasonable, key word reasonable, environmental policy is ensuring a cleaner future for the next generation. Unlike Democrats who are trying to capitalize on this issue and pass irresponsible legislation and push unthinkably backwards treaties like Kyoto, McCain's description of protecting the environment falls more in line with the reasonable standards and evolution of policy as the Bush Administration yet doesn't turn off many independent and moderate voters who think Republicans are just sticking their fingers in their ears on the scientific data.

If you've read Bush's energy policy you'll find that McCain is pushing to continue the funding of alternative energy research to help get us less dependent on energy sources that are produced in a region full of our ideological enemies. He is not however so irrational on the subject that he pushes alternative energies at the sacrifice of free market principles.

War on Terror Issues:

Prisoner mistreatment. Some think McCain is too weak on this subject even though his demands for US policy are in line with current policy on military detainment of prisoners and he has openly stated he will do what is necessary to get information from a prisoner who has critical information on stopping an inevitable attack and take full responsibility for that decision. Such a position ensures we maintain the moral high ground and continue to stand as a beacon as the shining city on a hill to the world. Would such a public policy prohibit covert operations necessarily? Absolutely not. Many covert operations defy public policy as deemed required. This is the stuff that we'll never hear about in our lifetimes and I strongly doubt that McCain has any weakness when it comes to doing what is necessary even if his public statements about public policy seem overly idealistic to some.

Closing Camp X-ray. Prisoner of War detention centers have almost always been beyond the jurisdiction of any Article III court for Habeas petitions and criminal prosecution of combatants is general frowned upon by our treaty obligations. Closing Gitmo isn't only good policy, it's necessary if we're going to ensure that combatants we detain are kept out of our court system and kept in the jurisdiction of military control during a time of war. Until the Court make up ensures that combatants captured in war are outside of their jurisdiction to meddle, detentions will have to continue in foreign theaters in or near the area of conflict.

McCain's foreign policy experience in dealing with military issues in the Senate has encompassed every terror threat the United States has faced in recent years, long before 9/11, and how the U.S. military is equipped to respond to such threats and regimes that support these subnational militant groups.

Immigration:

This is a sore spot for many conservatives but mainly over the idea that McCain is somehow uninterested in securing the border. The compromise bill that many have painted as McCain simply capitulating to the Democrats was a compromise bill, not a capitulation bill that demanded border security be implemented prior to the reforms in the bill. Both issues were brought in the same bill to get conservatives on board with reforms by ensuring border security got priority and to get Democrats on board by ensuring such border security came with needed reforms.

The utter failure of immigration reformers to convince people that the border security provisions would actually be implemented as the bill stated (reasonable given the failure of the federal government to do so in the past) has led many reformers, McCain included, to support addressing the border security issue prior to any reform bill as opposed to packaged with one. Some consider this a flip-flop, but it would require ignoring what the bill actually said.

A multitude of conspiracy theories have emerged about him supporting open borders, which his record on the issue doesn't support... about him supporting a North American Union, which doesn't have support by any significant figure in our government, McCain included... about him supporting destroying US sovereignty and annexing the Unites States to Mexico, a completely unsupportable accusation... to him supposedly having secret deals to support open borders because some of his Hispanic contacts support far more extreme reforms than McCain has ever advocated, as if that was somehow proof of McCain's true viewpoints. Somehow this never applies to his far more conservative contacts, friends, and endorsers... but I digress.

Some will never vote for him because he won't deport all the illegals. None of the current GOP candidates has said this is feasible. The closest any other candidate has come is Romney who used to consider fines and paths to citizenship reasonable to address the illegal immigration issue, but as of late has only supported "amnesty" (as he calls it) for up to 20% of illegals while temporary permits for illegals matched with a policy of them getting in line outside of the U.S. for citizenship for the rest apparently. To date it doesn't appear he's gone on record on how temporary those permits would be, nor how he'd deal with the severe supply/demand issues driving the illegal labor market by those looking for temporary work, not permanent residence.

Somehow there are people out there who believe Romney is more trustworthy on the issue when he has changed his tune as the primary season drug on. The Chicago Tribune referred to him as a "toothless hunting dog" on the issue because his record, like on his gun supporting claims, turned out to be nearly empty compared to his current rhetoric. Some will never see McCain as anything but the devil on this issue because he was the face behind the proposals they despise... and they'll vote for people who've had or have similar policies just to spite that devil.

It causes some really vindictive and smearing comments to be made that are reminiscent of the "anybody but Bush" BDS hysteria in 2004. I can only hope the Tancredo crowd isn't in the majority on this issue and most can put other priorities ahead of something that is practically a non-issue given the other candidates' stances on it.

Campaign Finance Reform:

I didn't like it, but McCain, Thompson, Bush 43, and many others did like it, and so far the Supreme Court has generally left it untouched with the cases thus far. While some worry that the Court will never limit it, I believe it will, and I believe that McCain's standard for strict constructionists will ironically end up in its limitation. While some have pointed to it as a major assault on free speech, others have pointed to its sheer ineffectiveness at stopping any scrupulous campaign funding for causes. They can't both be right.

Some have gone further to say it was a direct assault on pro-life causes or gun rights causes. I'm sure there are some unions that feel the same way since they had to reorganize how their political wings were funded through voluntary donations for political causes, just as the NRA has. As a life member of the NRA and an activist for 2nd Amendment causes for longer than I can remember, McCain-Feingold was barely a blip on the radar as far as assaults on free speech or gun rights for me as an individual or the NRA as a whole, regardless of how much the leaders complained about it.

But speaking of guns...

The 2nd Amendment:

A big deal for me personally. And one of McCain's weaker points in my opinion. McCain was a proponent of gun locks being required to be sold along with firearms. A law that made little sense since people too irresponsible to lock of their guns when they should would still be unlikely to lock them up if they bought one. All it would do is make guns slightly more expensive to purchase with little payoff.

The other big issue was the "gunshow loophole" that would have required background checks on many private transfers of firearms to ensure that guns sold to people at gunshows weren't to prohibited persons. I don't think this law does much good. We have to do that at gunshows here and it is a pain in the butt, but it doesn't cause any major problems. Obnoxious, yes, a huge deal? I don't think so. I still don't like it because it doesn't seem to address an issue where there is any statistically significant problem nor does it appear to do anything to stop illegal gun purchases generally since such transfers are statistically rare at gun shows.

There is one issue that sends chills up my spine though, and that is the Assault Weapon Ban. McCain has generally opposed this ban. He opposed it when it first got signed into law in 1994 and voted against the bill focused on reauthorizing it 10 years later and his voting record and rhetoric have opposed such a ban, and bans in general except one glaring exception: he voted for a bill that had been generally killed by being poison pilled with amendments, including a provision to authorize the assault weapon ban. It only got a handful of votes, including McCain, for reasons unknown. The bill had many good provisions to prevent frivolous lawsuits against gun manufacturers and to reaffirm that the 2nd Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms, but it also had his gun show loophole in it which is the only issue I can find him talking about at the time. Given his record on the AWB in the past this appears to be a fluke and not a sign that he actually supported something he has always opposed prior to and since, but it's a black mark on his record nonetheless.

It might be enough to drive me to other candidates but the only viable candidate left with a strong 2nd Amendment record is Mike Huckabee, and he's not very viable at this point and I disagree with him on too many other issues and matters of record.

Thompson would have been the next best choice on the matter but he's now out of the race. He was my 2nd choice for this primary season in which I was hoping for a viable alternative to McCain when his campaign seemed pretty dead to rights.

Giuliani has a horrible record on guns which included the impetus for stopping frivolous lawsuits on the gun industry among the other heavy restriction on gun ownership he upheld as NYC mayor. But in the presidential race he has flip-flopped on that and though his reasoning was suspect, he has a much better record on keeping his campaign promises than the next guy.

That next guy is Mitt Romney who both signed an Assault Weapon Ban into law a few years ago but also stated strongly that he supported the federal law. Today he has moderated his gun stance to just considering bans of firearms he deems are too lethal for law enforcement while not backing off his prior support of the Assault Weapon Bans. With a Democratic congress still being likely if he was in office the last person I want with the veto pen is a guy who not only signed gun bans into law but makes it clear he's not against doing so in the future.

Elect-ability:

This is at the bottom of the list as it doesn't really matter to me at all. I supported McCain all through his campaign being in the gutter, on the ropes, etc. I'm voting for him because I think he's the best candidate in the race. But elect-ability is important to some, so I might as well point out why I think McCain is strong on this subject too for the general.

First things first: If, and that's a big if, he can win the Republican primary then he obviously has the support of enough Republicans, conservatives, and Republican leaning independents and conservative Democrats in the open and closed primaries to do well among this group in the general.

Second: Unlike almost all the other GOP candidates McCain has earned the respect of independents and moderate/conservative Democrats who might be inclined to lean Republican to avoid the blatant left turn the Democratic front runners have made in this current election cycle.

Third: Unlike many other candidates, McCain's perseverance on the immigration reform issue may actually win back many in the Hispanic community who supported Bush by 44% in 2004 but have overwhelmingly run to the Democratic side due to the heated rhetoric on immigration that brought all kinds out of the woodwork, not just in Washington but also in Main Street USA all over the country. As evenly divided as elections have been lately that is a significant (and growing) segment of the population to lose.

Fourth: The "taking our ball and going home" folks seem to be strongly outnumbered by those who realize that all of the GOP front runners have flaws that are matched on the other side of the ticket by either similar or worse policies in those issue areas, not to mention being worse in most other areas as well. Given the strong appeal of McCain to moderates and independents the small minority that decide to forgo voting due to their passionate views on single issues will be more than made up for.

Finally the polls, while too early to be definitive, have been indicating that McCain would be the strongest against the Democratic front runners, long before he was the front runner (again).

The key is winning the GOP nomination to ensure he can get support from his own party. If he can, I think he can win the general. If he can't the discussion becomes moot anyways.

Age:

I think he'll hold up just fine given his genes. Thanks for asking you little jerk.

Swearing Like a Sailor:

Sometimes, yes. He was one. I've heard of a President and Vice-President having their moments without the Navy excuse...

Family:

He had a rowdy youth. Been faithfully with his current wife for decades and has had successful and patriotic kids who have served their nation with distinction.

I've run out of irrelevant topics. The relevant ones seems pretty well covered. But that pretty well sums it up for me. I hope it works for others as well, but I know we'll never all agree on this one. Hopefully we can be civil when we disagree though.

I hope and believe that a majority of Republican voters do not support John McCain's efforts to reward millions of illegal aliens with legal status and a path to citizenship. McCain believes that millions of illegal aliens that violated federal immigration laws should be permitted to obtain legal status and a path to citizenship without ever having to leave the country they illegallly entered.

When McCain voted for S.2611, the Senate "immigration reform" bill of 2006, he was voting against the wishes of a majority of Republican voters. While some Senate Republicans voted for S.2611, a majority of Senate Republicans voted against that bill that rewarded millions of illegal aliens with legal status and a path to citizenship. All but four Democrats voted for that bill. Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Patrick Leahy, Barbara Boxer, Dianne Feinstein, Barack Obama, Richard Durbin and Barbara Mikulski.

For some (such as me) that have reviewed John McCain's voting record on illegal immigration, his vote on S.2611 is far from the only vote that is troubling.

S.2611 by raider

The final sentence in the second paragraph of my comment should have been written "Hillary Clinton, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Patrick Leahy, Barbara Boxer, Dianne Feinstein, Barack Obama, Richard Durbin and Barbara Mikulski all voted for S.2611".

As pointed out by Dobbs last night McCain recently said

"If they want the border fence first, we'll build it"

Who's "they" Senator McCain?

It shows me a window into John's contempt for all of us "theys" out here who just happen to think illegals are just that....illegal....to say nothing of expensive to the average citizen.

The Prez is the highest ranking law enforcement officer in the land ...but if he so chooses not to enforce the law ...who will? Right, no one.

Bush has decided not to enforce Simpson-Mazzolli just like Clinton before him and Bush 41 before that....Hey,when is the last time anyone ever filled out a meaningful I-9 form?

What makes anyone think McCain will be any better than Bush given his position on immigration amnesty clearly laid out in the failed McCain -Kennnedy bill?

Face it....the fix is in and if McCain is Prez....forget immigration control.

Pork? by brwct08

I am just sick of this "pork barrel spending" term. Nobody will ever cut anything in Washington. Only an insider like McCain would have you believe that he can "fix that". He is NOT a supply sider. He does not believe that tax cuts help the economy. He voted against the Bush tax cuts in 2001 and 2003, and said "they favored the rich". Nice. If anyone thinks he will be anything other than a deal maker with the Dems is deluted. Ive got a bridge to "nowhere to sell you". Another term Im sick of that McCain loves.
Spare me.

Unlike most... by IL-Glock21

...he has a long and strong record of supporting cuts in pork barrel spending. If you prefer I'll call them earmarks, or negotiating chips to get people to support legislation they don't really support with what essentially amounts as a campaign bribe. You support S.B. 555 and we'll let you get 3 million bucks for a project you can brag to your constituents about. Slimy to say the least.

Your only proof that he isn't a real supply sider is that he voted against the Bush tax cuts initially. Neglecting that he did indeed support tax cuts at the time, just not the same. And he made it clear he would have supported the larger package with spending cuts to ensure our military and other obligations were covered, even if it meant taking on some sacred cows.

On fiscal conservatism he's the best of both worlds... cutting taxes, cutting spending, reaping the benefits of both so we can cut taxes more in the future.

Those earmarks add up over time, especially if it has to be paid for by borrowing from China with interest. Every wasted dollar and wasted interest payment on that dollar is less money that could go to a tax cut later.

Sorry. I stopped there. He obviously panders to where the wind is blowing no matter what. I would prefer someone that stands up and demands more science. The case is not closed by a long shot. More and more studies indicate that AGW is a scam invented by those that would enslave you.

I'm not a masochist and refuse to bow down and allow myself to be enslaved by greed and stupidity.

"Two legs bad, four legs good."

...but even the Bush Admin was noting that global warming theories are viable, though they dispute the man-made impact as being significant. The Bush admin also pushes for reasonable environmental regulation that conservatives have recognized as an interstate issue with some benefits to the national economy generally on top of quality of life issues that are interrelated in my opinion.

It seems far less like a pander in my opinion that the best way to sell a reasonable policy over what the Democrats surely support... irrational, hysterical, Kyoto like policies that would cripple our economy severely while some of the world's worst polluters get a free pass.

McCain = Billary by bigspoon65

Just as republicans are cheering for Hillary to win the nomination because she is our best chance to win in November with the anti-Hillary vote. So too are the democrats cheering for McCain (and in some cases voting for him in the primaries) because he is the one they are hoping to run against. No other candidate in the GOP has done more to hurt the conservative movement or causes than John McCain. He is a Judas in every sense of the word. Should he win our nomination I will be switching parties to vote against him. I couldn't stand for him to pretend to speak for his party and for conservatives as he sells us out at every turn (which is his record of achievements that has earned him the name Maverick). Tough on terror? He's a joke and he would weaken us on the war on terror. Closing Guantanomo and bringing the terrorists here to award them miranda rights and appointing them slip and fall lawyers is not exactly getting tough on terror. Refusing to waterboard or conduct any other tough methods of interrogation to extract crucial information to save American lives is again not exactly getting tough on terror. Can't believe this phony tries to take credit for the surge like it was his idea. I would NEVER vote for John McCain regardless of who he was running against. I trust that John McCain's record of betrayals accurately portray what Americans should expect from him should enough of you lemmings vote for him. South Carolina screwed it up. Will Florida get it right?

Dkos started a whole Dems for Mitt in MI b/c they think he is so vulnerable. They are worried about McCain because he appeals to the middle.

______________________________________
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:Yawn:

When you learn to talk like more then a ranting teenager who's pi$$ed at his parents for not letting him have the car Friday, try again.

John Bolton for President
"FEAR THE 'STACH!!!"

Hrmm... by IL-Glock21

The Republicans are cheering for Hillary to win. The Democrats seem concerned about a McCain win due to his strong support among moderates and independents as well as many Republicans/conservatives. That's generally been the arguments I've seen.

The cross over votes seem to affirm this worry of theirs, not your interpretation of the situation. I don't think I've heard anyone cheering for McCain like the Republicans have openly been cheering for Hillary at all. So I'm not sure where you're getting this distorted impression of the coverage.

The waterboarding policy is public policy for our military for a reason. Applying that public policy more generally only helps our image. Public policy does not technically preclude covert operations though. I think this issue is getting a bit exaggerated. Our treaty obligations on torture and under the Geneva Conventions make this the right move as opposed to having a public policy that could put our intel agents and others under stronger scrutiny in International oversight.

He doesn't come off as weak as you seem to make out, especially with these examples that don't seem to make your case, at least as far as I can tell.

He does take a bit too much credit for the surge stuff, but this is pretty typical election rhetoric... taking credit for the things that worked well no matter how directly or indirectly their role played.

Given that all of your complaints are far worse on the other side of the ticket, not sure how it would be better to work for them if McCain gets the nod.

McCain $$$$$$$$ by Pro America 1st

Please Donate tonight!!!!

You do a better job of by Flagstaff

You do a better job of selling McCain than he does himself.

My observations:

The War

McCain does have an advantage, but for me it isn't that big. I think Romney would select good military advisors, and he'd take their advice. I don't think he'd be likely to say "I know more about it than you do," as I believe McCain would. Obviously, the President is the "final decider."

An advantage he claims, but doesn't really have, is that he was the commander of a fighter squadron. This is supposed to show his managerial expertise, too. And his patriotism. But according to his website, he was the commander of that squadron for less than a year during 1976; then he went off to DC to become a Naval liason to the Senate.

Foreign Affairs

AFAIK, none of the candidate has had any. But as to foreign affairs experience, McCain has indeed been in the Senate a long time, and some of that time he's been on the Military Appropriations Committee. Strangely, his campaign website doesn't mention that, only his appointment to the Commerce Committee when he first entered the Senate.

Supreme Court Appointments

I know nothing to convince me that McCain will choose better than Romney. In fact, I think Romney is better fit both by temperament and intellect to make better choices.

Fiscal Conservatism

McCain's claims are striking. At his website, it says, since arriving in DC as a Congressman, "John has led the fight for reforming Washington, eliminating wasteful government spending, and strengthening our nation's armed forces."

Record as a reformer--Keating 5.

Eliminating wasteful government spending--Just what has been eliminated? I know he mentions an airplane, but those always have supporters and detractors.

Yet he fully supports manned missions to Mars and the moon. When I was younger, I might have agreed, but there is no scientific advantage this dream has over unmanned missions, the cost is likely at least 10 times greater, and it won't be accomplished during his administration nor probably his life. This is definitely not fiscal conservatism. He's blowing smoke here to a special interest group, as Huckabee has done with the Fair Tax crowd.

Armed Forces--Undoubtedly helped Reagan build up after the Carter years' disaster.

War on Terror

Here is where his crazy reasoning comes to the fore. He wants to have laws against waterboarding and torture (one and the same to him), yet "he has openly stated he will do what is necessary to get information from a prisoner who has critical information on stopping an inevitable attack and take full responsibility for that decision." He says he'll break the law. Then what's the point of the law, unless he believes that, as President, he'd be above it?

Closing Gitmo--Does he say that he wants to move the prisoners further away? I thought he wanted to bring them to the US. There is NOTHING about it on the website, either way.

Immigration

"I can only hope the Tancredo crowd isn't in the majority on this issue and most can put other priorities ahead of something that is practically a non-issue given the other candidates' stances on it."

For me, the single biggest issue.

After seeing how badly he did among voters in Florida who think it's important, he'd better hope they're in the minority. It's easy to see how badly he has missed the point on this issue, every time he says, "I hear you. We'll build the fence." The issue is far more complex than just building the fence first and he clearly doesn't see that, perhaps because he seems to be an economic illiterate.

Then he compounds his mistake by dragging out that worn-out red herring, "You can't deport 12 million people." I guess he's just a "can't do" kind of guy. Except we "can" afford to send a manned mission to Mars. Right.

CFR

"While some have pointed to it as a major assault on free speech, others have pointed to its sheer ineffectiveness at stopping any scrupulous campaign funding for causes. They can't both be right."

But they can. It is an assault on free speech, but it's an ineffective one (until somebody uses it to win a close election). It has what's called a "chilling effect" on political speech.

Elect-ability:

"This is at the bottom of the list as it doesn't really matter to me at all."

Me, too.

I think you missed one relevant topic: His demeanor, including stabililty, integrity, and mental ability.

We all know he's a cocked pistol, ready to pop off at a moment's notice. It's a developing story that he's also not afraid to tell a lie or two and pretend it's just politics--retribution for lies about him. And on TV tonight he even appeared, for want of a better word, nasty. Bill and Hillary have already shown us that isn't an appealing trait in a candidate.

Intellectually, he isn't in the same building with Romney or Giuliani, or even Obama. This isn't something that I usually pay much attention to, because it's hard to know for sure, and it can be hidden with the proper demeanor. A businesslike approach does wonders. Even though Bush may not be a genius, he is a pretty good problem solver, partly because he listens to expert advice. I get the impression that McCain fancies himself an expert on everything so he doesn't need advice. Again, his public statements on immigration are a "tell."

If he's nominated, I'll vote for him--I'm pretty sure.

The "Third Worst Person in the World" and aiming higher.

Fair enough... by IL-Glock21

I agree that Romney is smart enough that he'd be likely to pick qualified advisers and understand them well enough to make the right decisions for the most part. I think McCain is better suited for this as he's been working with such folks as part of his Senate duties dealing with the Armed Services for years. Romney is not, by any means poor in this category, I just think McCain would be exceptional.

As far as foreign affairs, I believe McCain has spent a great deal more time dealing with both allies, strategic allies, etc in policy discussion and in his duties to get a first hand perspective of foreign policy issues for his Senate duties.

Economics issues with foreign affairs he'd probably defer more to economic experts, and issue of which he is no fool in spite of his self-deprecating comments on it. Romney would obviously have to rely less on advisers and have an edge in general understanding. I think both are highly qualified for these kind of talks though and their policy positions reflect that.

McCain's ideal Supreme Court picks leave me with little doubt he'll be fine in this area. Romney makes me a bit nervous if he'll capitulate to a Dem controlled Senate on some issues as he did in Massachusetts... even after his pro-life epiphany still appointing a pro-choice judge.

The Keating 5 issue is certainly not out of bounds for criticism but I think it has been exaggerated quite a bit since McCain was one of the men who wasn't found of any wrong doing, just that he used poor judgment in avoiding the appearance of impropriety with his donors. After so many years in Congress this is hardly a damning issue. Especially without any further issues in the following decades. John Glenn, another American Hero, was also mixed in with this group, and also not found of any wrong doing, iirc.

His fiscal conservatism is hardly in doubt given his long voting record to show for it. Not much was accomplished overall since he is just one Senator of a hundred. But his record shows someone who we'd really like to have the veto pen.

The NASA stuff doesn't bug me so much as I see a great deal of military applications to the research and goals that are national in nature as opposed to just State/private interests.

Then he compounds his mistake by dragging out that worn-out red herring, "You can't deport 12 million people."

Since nearly every GOP candidate, including Romney, Giuliani and others, said as much during the debates there may be more to it than simply a red herring. But this is probably an issue we'll never agree much on. I've seen how the threads on the subject devolve down to the two sides beating their heads against either side of a brick wall without ever knocking any sense into the other guy. So I mostly let opinions on the matter alone. It's a bit too passionate of a subject to discuss unless among long time friends it seems.

We both agree that CFR is bad law. I don't think it has had the chilling effect you've describes as much as a pain-in-the-butt effect that I'd like to eventually see struck down as null and void.

I tried to touch on demeanor a bit with the 'swearing like a sailor' bit, but it's not something that really concerns me. He gets heated sometimes. I have little problem with that. Where it seems to bug others is that it is often aimed at his colleagues.

The worst fights I ever had were with my friends, when they seem to be screwing me over it drives the emotion far higher than usual. And with the issues of McCain losing his temper, it never seemed so often or so outlandish that it was inexcusable to me. Others disagree, but it is often because they took it personally. During the immigration debate I was told/called all sorts of horrible things. I think its an issue that gets people angry and passionate and takes its tole on those who believe they're being reasonable but constantly being told they're traitors or don't care about real Americans blah blah blah. I can only imagine the hate mail McCain was getting daily, let alone the crap I had to put up with.

I just never saw it as something so outlandish that he was out of control, instable, etc. He seemed to be annoyed, frustrated, and even ticked off at times. But it always seemed that he was in control of his emotions in spite of the occasional outburst. That kind of passion doesn't bug me.

I don't think he's ready to pop at any moment any more than I thought Cheney was for his notorious f-bomb when somebody annoyed him. It happens. I do it too. But it doesn't mean I'm a half step from buying pipebombs and putting people on lists for some big final showdown.

It's an issue that I also think is overblown.

But that's generally how I feel about those issues. Sounds like you're probably leaning for Romney, and though he has some qualities that drive me up the wall and back again, he is far better than the Democrats on all counts, so I'll vote for him if he gets the nod. Just less enthusiastically. But I'm sure you know that feeling too it seems.

I think you read me pretty well. I'd just like to clear up a couple of things.

On the Keating five, you said,

"After so many years in Congress this is hardly a damning issue. Especially without any further issues in the following decades. John Glenn, another American Hero, was also mixed in with this group, and also not found of any wrong doing, iirc."

I have just three words on that: Mary Jo Kopechne.

Well, more than three words. It is/was a reflection of his character. I've never been completely sold on his high moral standing, and current events haven't helped, either. I suspect he was given some kid glove treatment, not because he's a Senator, but because of all those years in the Hanoi Hilton (which I have seen, by the way, but not as a guest). I'd cut him some slack for that, too, but I can't pass it off as insignificant.

Larry Craig has been vilified on less evidence.

Then he compounds his mistake by dragging out that worn-out red herring, "You can't deport 12 million people."

"Since nearly every GOP candidate, including Romney, Giuliani and others, said as much during the debates there may be more to it than simply a red herring."

I didn't make myself clear there. I didn't mean that I think he's necessarily wrong. I meant that he uses the statement as a red herring, maybe a straw man is a better term, with the implication that his opponents want to do the impossible, as if that way and his way are the only two choices. Maybe we agree on that.

It's clear to me that HIS way will result in about 18 million illegals being granted legal resident status. Maybe we disagree on that.

Fred is gone, so I definitely prefer Romney as my second choice. But I will probably go for McCain if he's nominated just because of the Supreme Court thingy. If we had a majority on the court already, it would be tempting to withhold my vote, because I don't think even the Democrats would talk themselves into abandoning Iraq when the time came to do it, and I don't think they'd be any worse than McCain on immigration. But, naw, I wouldn't take that chance.

I appreciate the work you put into the OP. It is helpful.

Now it's Bedtime for Bonzo.

The "Third Worst Person in the World" and aiming higher.

Like with Teddy's "incident" there was someone killed. With Larry Craig he plead guilty to a crime that appeared to have a homosexual background story which contrasted with his traditional marriage stances in the Senate and his attempts to deny it made him seem like a blatant closet case to many.

McCain and a few other legislatures took dirty money they probably shouldn't have, but nobody died, it didn't involve any censure or intentional wrongdoing, etc on McCain's part. It had more to do with poor judgment in the avoiding the appearance of impropriety. And frankly the only people I ever hear bring it up are conservatives anymore. Hillary and Obama both have more recent scandals that have made far more press lately.

I don't think it'll gain much traction beyond the die hard dem circles anyways, who aren't the ones who'd be crossover voting.

On using that phrase to distract from arguments, that I'll agree on. Both sides of this debate like to use various fallacies at times to keep the argument focused on their stronger points or ignore their weaker points. It's nice when people can have an objective discussion on a subject that is so emotionally charged... but such conversations tend to be difficult in a forum, bar, blog, etc where any yahoo can jump on in and rile everybody up with an extremist position from one or both sides of the debate.

As far as whether McCain's plan will make all illegals legal residents, I strongly doubt it. Those convicted of other crimes would still be subject to arrest and deportation... a figure he regularly estimates at two million or higher. It wasn't even highly likely that those who could qualify for temporary permits would be able to afford to pay the fines and back taxes and meet the other qualifications to stay. As States continue to clamp down on social and other services for illegals those who cannot qualify or afford the penalties for the temporary work visas will have little choice but to return to their nation's of origin.

How many millions that this would apply to is hard to estimate. Of those who can and do meet the requirements the work permits, though renewable, are not necessarily renewable forever unless congress fails to put any limits on them. The last bill didn't specify any limit on renewals but it did not preclude Congress from adding them... so the only way they could be de facto permanent work visas is if Congress never implements a limit, which is/was unlikely.

A much smaller percentage of illegals who met these qualifications would further seek the path to citizenship which would take even longer but result in permanent residence in the US and possibly eventual citizenship.

The biggest gripe was if they'd have to go home first, or not, to wait in line for such privilege and why no limit on temporary work visa renewals was in the bill itself, leaving it open at the time being. Legitimate concerns, but it hardly amounted to granting all illegals permanent legal status in the US without making assumptions that future congresses would never limit renewals for work visas, assuming that no illegals who committed additional crimes were ever found and deported, and assuming that all illegals would be able to afford the fines and meet the qualifications for the work visas and/or path to citizenship.

None of these assumptions seem reasonable to me. So yes, we disagree on it giving all the illegals permanent legal residence. But that's my take. I've heard Romney's technical argument on the z-visas, but for it to grant permanent legal residence he relies on these same assumptions, that honestly seem unrealistic to me. His argument seems better framed as a "what if" as opposed to "it would" but opinions vary.

That's my perspective on it, if that helps show where I'm coming from.

Just a couple of responses, because I don't see anything unreasonable in your comments.

"McCain and a few other legislatures took dirty money they probably shouldn't have, but nobody died, it didn't involve any censure or intentional wrongdoing, etc on McCain's part. It had more to do with poor judgment in the avoiding the appearance of impropriety. And frankly the only people I ever hear bring it up are conservatives anymore."

Isn't taking dirty money and having poor judgement important, in a very negative way? Didn't seem to bother some of the voters in Florida, I guess. And I think you're right about conservatives bringing it up, as the majority of conservative voters went to Romney.

"Hillary and Obama both have more recent scandals that have made far more press lately."

I hadn't heard that either one of them had been found taking dirty money. MSM bias, I suppose. they just won't report bad news for the Democrats. But I do think that once a Republican candidate is chosen, the MSM will use every bit of his bad behavior it can find to throw at him.

Regarding McCain and illegal immigration, I didn't say he'd make them all legal. I said about 18 million (at least that's what I meant to say). 20 million already here, minus 2 million felons, leaves 18 million to do something with. Since he says we can't deport them, they'd have to be legalized. And your enforcement by attrition plan, the one that Thompson and Romney support, has already been rejected by McCain as de facto amnesty. Based on McCain's own words, I think I'm right on this one, at least within a few million. And don't forget to then add on the remainder of their families yet to come from Mexico.

"The biggest gripe was if they'd have to go home first, or not, to wait in line for such privilege and why no limit on temporary work visa renewals was in the bill itself, leaving it open at the time being. Legitimate concerns, but it hardly amounted to granting all illegals permanent legal status in the US without making assumptions that future congresses would never limit renewals for work visas, assuming that no illegals who committed additional crimes were ever found and deported, and assuming that all illegals would be able to afford the fines and meet the qualifications for the work visas and/or path to citizenship."

You'll never go far wrong betting that Congress will do
nothing about a hot potato. Also, if you buy into McCain's assertion that these hard-working people are here doing important work, you have to also buy that they'll be able to pay fines and learn to speak English (most laredy do that, anyway).

Z-visas? Old news. Part of the old bill that will not come back, but Romney is right, the way they were defined and implemented would have given almost everyone legalized status.

The "Third Worst Person in the World" and aiming higher.

I'm with RandomGuy by UpLateAgain

Draft John Bolton!!! Romney will stay in because he has the coin to do so.... even if he isn't top dog on Super Tuesday.. What we need to do is start supporting the Huckster so we can have a three-way tie in delegate counts at convention time. Then we can broker-in a Bolton/Gingrich or Gingrich/Bolton ticket!

I know. Pipe dream. It's just that the McCain victory in Florida has made me sick at heart.

McCain's solution for AGW will give us $6/gal. gasoline and unsafe vehicles.

Sure McCain, you can have my #$&&^%#@$ vote
Fred Thompson's Principles
==== 13 ====

than give in McCain style to get approval.

No worries! by UpLateAgain

I could easily get behind Bolton/Thompson!


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