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The Filibuster is Essential for Democracy

The filibuster is essential for democracy, because it protects Americans from a tyranny of the majority, whether that majority be Democrats or Republicans.  Right now, liberals are angry at Congress because Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid was not allowed to steamroll the minority party, and moderates within his own caucus, to pass a version of ObamaCare with a public option.  The left wants to exterminate the only remaining tool for individual members of the Senate to slow down legislation.

It isn’t enough for liberals to control 60 votes in the Senate, have an overwhelming majority in the House and the Presidency for the next 4 years.  Now they are messaging to get rid of the Senate filibuster, so they can cut out moderate Democrats.  They want the Senate to be run like the House — with minimal participation by the minority party.  I bet these same liberals would be very upset if Republicans had changed the rules during the Bush Administration to expand tax cuts, set up private accounts to wean citizens off Social Security and cut federal spending on government waste (think ACORN).  Liberal columnist for the Washington Post, Ezra Klein, writes today:

The modern Senate is a radically different institution than the Senate of the 1960s, and the dysfunction exhibited in its debate over health care — the absence of bipartisanship, the use of the filibuster to obstruct progress rather than protect debate, the ability of any given senator to hold the bill hostage to his or her demands — has convinced many, both inside and outside the chamber, that it needs to be fixed.

By “fixed,” the left means eliminated so that they can throw moderate members of the Democrat caucus under the bus.  Senators Ben Nelson (D-NE), Joe Lieberman (ID-Conn.) and Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.) would have had no input into the Senate version of ObamaCare without a mechanism for Senators to extend debate. Somehow Republicans are to blame for the lack of bipartisanship and for Democrat Senators use of the rules to remove objectionable portions of the health care bill.  For Klein, the Democrat caucus in the Senate, including a Socialist and an Independent-Democrat, is far too conservative because it did not take up and pass a version of ObamaCare with a public option. 

Klein wrote that “this was a test of whether a party could govern when everything was stacked in its favor” and concluded ”not really.”  Klein went on to complain:

And Democrats still could not find a single Republican vote, which meant they had to give Nebraska a coupon entitling it to a free Medicaid expansion and hand Joe Lieberman a voucher that’s good for anything he wants. If the Senate cannot govern effectively even when history conspires to free its hand, then it cannot govern.

First of all, Senator Harry Reid decided to put the Nebraska provision in the bill to buy a vote for cloture.  Can’t blame the Senate’s rules for that situation.  Klein’s complaint about Nelson of Nebraska and Lieberman’s use of the Senate rules to get what they want is no reason to get rid of the filibuster.  Because Klein’s beloved Democrats could not get everything they wanted after months of closed door meetings and no effort to include Republicans, the filibuster has become the reason for public option failure. 

Klien quotes a Republican complaining about the filibuster:

In 2005, Senate majority leader Bill Frist nearly shut the chamber down over the Democratic habit of filibustering George W. Bush’s judicial nominees. “This filibuster is nothing less than a formula for tyranny by the minority,” he said at the time.

It think it is time for conservatives to distance themselves from the Republican attempts to impose the so called “Constitutional Option” to abolish the filibuster for judicial nominees.  That argument was based on a flawed logic that, although the Senate consititutionally sets it’s own rules, another provision in the constitution can be interpreted to claim that the filibuster does not apply to judicial nominees.  The theory was based on the idea that the Senate, through the use of a simple majority, could change the rules of the Senate by ignoring the letter of the Senate’s rules, to set a precedent exempting nominations from the filibuster rule.  Thank goodness Republicans never went further down that path or they would be paying a high price right now.  With all due respect to the former Leader, Senator Bill Frist was wrong and not all conservatives supported the idea that the filibuster did not apply to nominations. 

The filibuster is nothing more than a tool to allow the minority to have the right to extend debate.  If one understood the Senate rules, they would remember the famous movie, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, where one Senator was allowed to talk until he dropped.  The Senate got rid of that tradition and rule.  Now Mr. Smith can be shut up if 16 Senators sign a petition and 60 Senators vote to shut off debate after two days.  A filibuster is 60 Senators saying that they are going to limit debate — nothing more and nothing less.  If the majority can’t get 60, then nothing prevents them from trying to shut down debate again with a new cloture petition.  The only way a failed cloture vote becomes a vote that kills a bill is when the majority fails to file cloture again and again to shut down debate.  A filibuster does not kill legislation, the will of the majority not to force vote after vote to shut off debate does. 

President Barack Obama, a man who as Senator participated in Democrat filibusters of Bush judicial nominees, is now changin his position on the filibuster.  According to TPMDC:

“[A]s somebody who served in the Senate, who values the traditions of the Senate, who thinks that institution has been the world’s greatest deliberative body, to see the filibuster rule, which imposes a 60-vote supermajority on legislation – to see that invoked on every single piece of legislation, during the course of this year, is unheard of,” says President Obama in a yet-to-air interview with PBS.

The President must have a short memory, because he participated in filibusters during his short time in the Senate.  Paul Krugman in the New York Times repeats the absurd argument that, notwithstanding the passage of ObamaCare in the Senate, our legislative process is broken because the left didn’t get everything they wanted:

And the fact that it was such a close thing shows that the Senate — and, therefore, the U.S. government as a whole — has become ominously dysfunctional. After all, Democrats won big last year, running on a platform that put health reform front and center. In any other advanced democracy this would have given them the mandate and the ability to make major changes. But the need for 60 votes to cut off Senate debate and end a filibuster — a requirement that appears nowhere in the Constitution, but is simply a self-imposed rule — turned what should have been a straightforward piece of legislating into a nail-biter. And it gave a handful of wavering senators extraordinary power to shape the bill.

The bottom line is that the liberals want to change the rules so they can completely ignore Blue Dog Democrats in the House, moderate Democrat Senators and anybody with an R next to their name so they can rule without dissent.  The advocacy of the rewriting of the rules in the Senate to abolish the filibuster is the utmost in hubris and “I am smarter than you” attitude of the Obama Administration and leaders in Congress.  They want more and more power and can’t stand the fact that they can’t pass their whole left wing agenda in the first two years of the Obama Administration.  They know that their left wing legislative window is closing because next fall democracy kicks back in and likely will kick out many of the moderate Democrats in the caucus for the sins of the far left of their own party.

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COMMENTS

  • Vegas_Rick

    to complain about the filibuster for slowing down OBamacare while totally ignoring the 55% of the American people who don’t want this crap sandwich.

  • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

    No where in this entire health care debate has the Left even tried to justify their brand of “reform” by invoking the Constitution. Instead when asked where in the Constitution their goals are authorized they get indignant, they obfuscate, and try to claim that of course Obamacare is Constitutional. They don’t give a damn what the majority of Americans want ard are determined to force us all into their vision of Utopia.
    They seem to believe also that if what they want is in fact passed we conservatives will in time simply learn to live with it much like we have to now live with FORCED participation in Social Security and Medicare. Majorities have stated they would opt out of both if given the CHOICE.
    Liberals only believe in two choices, abortion and gay marriage. All other decisions are to be made by the state. want to see a poll on Obamacare llimited only to taxpayers because it’s clear to me that taxpayers are being turned into the indentured servants of the client class and I’m sick of it.

    • comradi0

      The whole world isn’t out to get you. Terror doesn’t look good on you.

      Calm down.

    • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

      …I couldn’t find anything objectionable, factually, in what you said.

      How did Comradi0 know, when you stated the Left refuses to raise the Constitution in support of health care, and refuses to allow it to be used in defense, that you are secretly paranoid?

      Minus the hyperbole, it made perfect sense to me.

      • comradi0

        Were I to adress the issue of the consitutionality of Health Care reform I would, as is obvious even though it makes no difference to you, the general welfare clause as well as the ample amount of precedent needed on every issue except the mandate and even that is debatable and, as with those checks and balances mentioned, will in fact be debated properly.

        So again, why all the scary language? This bill is so watered down to make it only marginally effective. The whole scary idea of how we’re all going to be in chains tomorrow is only that. Induced fear.

        Goodness folks. This is America for God’s sake, have you no faith?

        • Achance

          who had pretty much laid out everything he was going to do in his two books ghost written by a terrorist, Ayers. Obviously, you’re one of the stupid 52%. And undoubtedly, a recent government school graduate as well.

          • antisocial

            I think an alert is needed.

        • antisocial

          I have no faith in the goodness of intentions of the Ruling Party. Now that democrat’s are in power “fillibuster” is bad? Oh come on.

          PS: I use Ruling on purpose. They are Rulers, not representatives anymore.

        • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

          …if you try to defend the indefensible natioanlization of our health care system by using the General Welfare Clause then you have absolutely zero understanding of that Clause’s history nor the countless times your understanding of it was refuted by the Founders themselves. I won’t even attempt to explain why it’s use here would be a perversion of said clause but will instead allow the Founders to speak for themselves:

          James Madison, the Father of our Constitution, wrote the following about the General Welfare clause in Article 1, Section 8:

          “With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”

          And in The Federalist Papers Madison writes “For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars.”

          Thomas Jefferson concurred with Madison on this issue of constraint:

          “I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That “all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people.” [10th Amendment] “To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specifically drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition.” Thomas Jefferson: National Bank Opinion, 1791.

          “We the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln

          And for further information with which you can educate yourself visit http://ironink.org/index.php?blog=1&title=madison_aamp_general_welfare

          • RedBeard

            All those facts about the Founders’ original intent will send the leftists into spasms.

            Mr. Madison was not only brilliant, but he was also quite easy to understand, assuming one actually reads his words. That is where the leftists lose the plot, I’m afraid, either through willful ignorance or a pathological inability to comprehend facts.

        • Power_Pro

          If it were, the rest of the Constitution and the 10th amendment would be meaningless, since all the government would have to do is claim that some program was for the sake of the general welfare and their power would be limitless.

          Anyone who knows even the barest minimum about the Constitution and the Founding Fathers knows their intent was to limit government, and ensure the bulk of power went to the STATES and the PEOPLE…and that they rejected an over reaching centralized bureaucracy.

  • RedBeard

    …when they decried such a thought just a few years ago is absolutely astounding. Do they think, in their delusional state, that the Dems will be in the majority forever?

    Maybe it’s not just arrogance. Maybe pure stupidity enters into this, at least as far as Klein and Krugman are concerned.

    The Nuke Option was a lousy idea during the Bush presidency, and it’s a lousy idea now.

    • comradi0

      There is to be an understanding that the filibuster is essential to protect the minority from the “tyranny of majority” then there must, and will be a counter-balance that will come into play so that the will of the majority can’t also be obstructed at will at the whim of the minority.

      I’ll take my chances without the filibuster against you guys. The government will not run like this and I know you guys are trying to utilize that to you advantage now in an attempt to destroy the legitimacy and right to govern of an elected president(no supremem court required), but with precedents like these and now, since jimmy Carter, EVERY piece of real legislation being filibustered to death, we’re on a course we must correct.

      I understand we don’t agree on our visions of our country. But I am a citizen too and I have just as much right to exert my will on the direction and course of our government as you do, and the effort of the right to for all intents and purposes, ban anyone who disagrees with you from ever having any real say without the country being drug to a grinding halt makes one a little sick.

      And sad, for my country. It is indeed my country too you know?

      • Brian Darling

        It is the Democrats who have a filibuster proof majority in the Senate and they still can’t govern. Why do you lefties want to abolish the filibuster? Is it so that you can steamroll the moderates in your caucus who refuse to commit political suicide by supporting unpopular Obama initiative after initiative? I think so.

        • comradi0

          It’s so the Congress can function as was intended rather than with only 60 votes in play because the minority has invested in the failure of the country for their own electoral chances.

          Also, for what this bodes for the future. Super-majorities are rare, on both sides, and nothing worth anything will ever get through again.

          You may think you’re obstructing to save your country, but that’s exactly what those who want you to vote for them want you to believe because all you’re really doing is obstructing to save their political skins because were Obama allowed to actually govern, you’re ideologies electoral power would be gone for a decade at least and when you came back, you would look much different than you do today and your scared to let go of yesterday.

          • Brian Darling

            Again – your party has a 60 vote majority in the Senate and can shut down debate whenever they want. Stop crying about a rule that is being used by members of your own party to stop Obama’s left wing agenda. Comradi0 – can you count to 60? 58 Dems + a Socialist + one Independent Democrat = 60 Dems. Don’t blame a rule if you can’t keep members of your own party together.

      • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

        …you may get what you wish for.

        When the Republicans come back it will be with a meat cleaver, so don’t ask for any set of rules you may regret when out of power.

        Out of power, your party is the party of whine, so it does not become you to whine, while in.

        • comradi0

          I’ll see that bet and raise you your support for the idea. After all, you’ll have the meat cleaver later, right?

          So how bout’ it?

          • Brian Darling

            If you believe the 2000 election was stolen then your opionions are in question on every issue. I do agree with you that you are “sad and pathetic.”
            Step away from the bong, pick up a Constitution and quote your authority for the proposition that the filibuster is unconstitutional.

      • Achance

        it won’t be those soft, old, compassionate guys who like all that collegial stuff and spent fifteen years feeding the hand that bit them. I know how the left uses the federal government for a money laundry. I know how to get in a lefty non-profit or a union’s knickers. And I and people like me will make the Blue states howl!

        • mbecker908

          But as long as McCain, Graham, McConnell etal are still alive and legislating I don’t see a Party with balls.

      • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

        I thought that the Establishment Left put all of you guys to sleep after the last election; something about how you were superfluous to the Democratic party’s requirements now.

        Shoo.

        • RedBeard

          Good to know the mindset of the opposition. I explains much.

      • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

        Your age and experience are beginning to show, son, but a good try.

        From your cant and timbre I’d guess you to have been in grade school in 2000, when the election was thankfully prevented from having been stolen. You want to debate this, hire a hall.

        We all lie here…my name really isn’t Vassar, who was fiddler in Nashville even before your mother was born…but I’d as soon believe your mother, no doubt named Moonglow, named you Comradi0 than you being much over 20.

        You can tell a lot about people by the way they write.
        Cordially

        • mbecker908

          at Redstate.

          Consider yourself a Christmas present to me. :-)

        • Achance
          • Vladimir
          • mbecker908

            Anybody know how to pin an audio media player into a comment???

          • Vladimir

            The only option was to have it launch upon opening the page.

            I figured it would cause Neil an aneurysm.

            I decided not to post it. For the time being.

      • 6eorge Jetson

        that would result if small temporary majorities could pass partisan agendas at their will. (The presidential veto is another buffer serving the same purpose.)

        Pass it. No reverse it. No, pass it back. No, reverse it again!

        And the provision that this Health Care bill can never be repealed is ludicrous. I doubt the Consitution states that the 111th Congress will trump the will of all subsequent sessions.

  • Joe_Cor

    that liberals, on the brink of producing the most intrusive, economy-destroying, civil-liberties-destroying, morally abominable, insane piece of legislation in history, are complaining because the Senate rules kept it from not being even more intrusive, economy-destroying, civil-liberties-destroying, morally abominable, and insane. When you’re out for a tsunami, can’t you be satisfied when all you get is a tidal wave?

    • comradi0

      And feel free to use as much hyperbolic language as you can manage to muster. I mean, we don’t want to confront too much reality today and all.

      • RedBeard

        The left will not be satisfied until this republic is completely transformed into an impotent European-style socialist “paradise.”

        Oh, was that hyperbole as well?

      • mbecker908

        We don’t FEEL.

        And those adjectives and verbs are simply statements of fact. But then your side never did understand the concept of “fact”. And for proof of that see President Al Gore and Global Warming. (I’d do a complete list but even at about 40wpm I wouldn’t live long enough to type it out.)

  • comradi0

    But the filibuster IS unconstitutional and it’s a tad difficult to figure out how you, in any logic manner, reconcile your rhetoric on this one.

    This is not what our founders invisioned.

    The fact is, since it gotten taken up as the hot new thing under Carter, our country has indeed grown more and more un-governable.

    I know you think that’s the Lord’s own blessing right now, because the American people handed you a resounding defeat these past few elections and you can’t seem to stand or tolerate the idea that Americans who don’t think like you should ever be given the right to make decisions about the actions, course, and trajectory of our own country.

    Beyond that, to hear the constant railing about how the government has no right to enact health care reform because it doesn’t say health care anywhere in the consitution, then to have you defend an blatant and known unconstitutional action in congress just because it let’s you bring the gears of America to a grinding halt just so you can’t hopefully point you fingers afterward and say, “See, look what they did, we told you so, vote for us!”, makes one a little sick.

    But, I guess this is just another one of the thousands of areas where you have some rule you want everyone else to follow, but never want to have to consider when maybe, just maybe, it doesn’t benefit you as well.

    Please understand, this is my country too. And one of the quoted articles above is indeed right, if the government can not be run when the American people handed it super majorities, it will never be able to run again, if there is zero way to stop it.

    I’m willing to take my chances of not having the ability to do it to you later, if it saves our country. Because right now, it’s dying. You should NOT be able to use shutting the functionality of our government down in a game of politics.

    That’s all this is, trying to destroy the Democrats ability to govern in an attempt to elevate your parties chances in coming elections because you know, if Obama was alllowed to govern, it would be bad for you politically because your ideologies power would be dead.

    The world is not as simple, and nor is the country, as AM advertising salesmen want it to appear to you.

    I honestly believed, I really did, that maybe just maybe America really could live up to all the things we’ve been told about it our whole lives. I had faith. Yes, I had hope. Everyday, it drains a little more, because if it can’t be done now, it never will.

    • IJB

      …Especially when imposed on executive appointments.

      The GOP should absolutely *NOT* back away from the Constitutional Option when it comes to Presidential and Judicial appointments – they should embrace it, and promise to pass exactly that the next time they take over the Senate.

      • comradi0

        Or was it a theorhetical threat until the latter half of the last century, and the in the last session of congress was used by the minority(R)more than 3 times the amount, in one single session, than during the entire lifespan of the country up to 1980?

        Bush also used more vetoes than any other president in history just so you know.

        So, you portend that the founding fathers invisioned the filibuster?

        I assure, they did not. This is NOT how their congress ran and it should no longer be how ours is run either.

        Why doesn’t redstate lay out a History of the life of the filibuster for us so we can all establish a better understanding of what we are talking about here, eh?

        It was not a creation of the founders and is not in the constitution. Period.

        • bigredone

          Article I, Section 5, Paragraph 2, the U. S. Constitution says, “Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.”

          I suspect the Rules of the Senate, provided for by the Constitution, allow debate to continue until cloture is invoked.

          See, it’s in there.

          • comradi0

            Seems our intepretations are about equally as loose here, no?

            Oh, well the senate can make it’s own rules, so this theorhetical idea that came into popularity in the last few decades even though it’s destroy the ability to govern is fine.

            But, addressing the issue of health care for Americans? Oh there’s no WAY they meant anything like that when they said the “general welfare”, much less “interstate commerce”.

          • RedBeard

            The Preamble is not one of the articles of the Constitution defining the limited powers delegated to the federal government, no matter how energetically liberals try to make it so.

          • ocleverone

            It is not a power grant nor is it a free for all for every entitlement program under the sun. It actual should limit the power of Congress to raise taxes to those items addressed in Article I.

            Using the General Welfare Clause to argue that Congress has the constitutional right to tax for a national health care policy is ridiculous – even the Dems in Congress aren’t using this weak argument.

          • mbecker908
          • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

            …interpretations of the General Welfare Clause. The Fouders put this issue to rest themselves. See my detailed respnse above.

        • vanekl

          Shooting meth is really hard on the body. It collapses veins and reduces breathing, so much so that it may be hard to get enough blood flow to your brain. It can also cause respiratory arrest and chronic chest infections. Seriously, stay away from it. You’ll thank me later.

          > Bush also used more vetoes than any other president in history just so you know.

          Actually, Bush had 12 vetoes in 8 years (I assume you’re referring to GWB, not his father). One of your idols, however, had 635 vetoes [FDR]. Do you see how silly your statements sound when compared to reality? Please check your facts first. Thank you.

          • Achance

            Presidencies. Remember you’re dealing with people who deny history. History began with their birth and is what they feel it should be.

          • antisocial

            It was truly a “creature”.

          • vanekl

            liberals prefer to base law on personal anecdote and feelings rather than principles and judgment.

            I can see why Liberals like to spout lies in their leftist hang-outs — they are unable to argue their positions on merit — but why take the same approach here when they know we don’t drink the koolaid and are not above fact-checking and historical analysis? It just makes no sense. I gave up trying to figure out how women think long ago; liberals have me equally confused.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
        • comradi0

          Just not legislation.

          The founders didn’t see it necessary either. Their congress was not run this way. And I assure you, the arguments we have today were very much alive then in their own settings. Federalists vs. Anti-Federalists… And on and on to today.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • jeffreywturner

            The problem arises when the filibuster is allowed to be used on something necessary for our government to function, such as the annual budget and Presidential appointments.

            The government would not cease to function if we didn’t pass a hate crimes bill or health care reform. So, while it may be a pain to have to try to get a super-majority for those things, it won’t cause government to grind to a halt if they don’t pass.

            The budget though, MUST pass in order to government to function. That is why it isn’t allowed to be filibustered. The Supreme Court (and lower courts) MUST be staffed in order for our government to function as well. What happens when a Supreme Court Justice dies and we end up with an case where the remaining 8 members are split 4-4? The case remands to the Circuit Court decision, but what if that court was in the same situation? See what I mean, government can’t function if it isn’t staffed, the same way it can’t function if it isn’t funded. With Supreme Court appointments in particular, say you get 41 senators who will filibuster ANY nominee who refuses to say they will vote to affirm Roe v. Wade and another 41 senators who will filibuster ANY nominee who refuses to say they will vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. Then, there would be no way for ANY President to appoint ANYONE because each side can block a nominee. This exact scenario hasn’t played out yet, but it certainly is possible, especially with how contentious nominations have gotten in recent years. This is why appointments should be exempt from the filibuster, just as the budget is.

          • Jeff Weimer

            For the left’s purposes (see ‘gang of 14′), but not the right’s?

            See how neatly he wrapped that up? He sounds like the Enron advisor – who was aghast – AGHAST, I say! – when abolishing the filibuster came up during Bush’s appointee fracas.

            Get bent, dude.

    • Achance

      You little lefty punk; coming on here carrying on about how the communists, err… Democrats, should be allowed to govern without interference. You and your ilk obstructed every thing GWB tried to do. You and your fellow travellers lied constantly for the entire time Republicans were in control.

      Some of us are of and age and an education that doesn’t believe that Creation occured at our birth, so we have some knowlege of the history and use of the filibuster to thwart the will of the ignorant mob.

      Now, slither on back over to Kos or some such cesspool where there’s a bunch of Comrade Obama disciples stupid enough to actually take your drivel seriously.

      • comradi0

        Like I said, I’m aware we are in a disagreance here. I’m also aware of the use of the filibuster by both sides up till now, including how you guys blocked any piece of legislation the democrats put forward to change policies, then ran and pointed you finger after November and said, but you’ve had a majority! Yes, a majority that was filibuster 3 times more than had been used in the entire history of the country up to 1980! And who was vetoed as well more times than any in history.

        Sure, we’re all guilty, but you guys are allowed to run around and cry about all the things you guys did too, with the fall back of, well two wrongs don’t make a right and conveniently object when someone else has the wheel, so I can also conveniently object and say, hey, it’s obvious, this has gone too far and if it isn’t done away with America will never be governable again, and I’d be right.

        • Brian Darling

          More power to the Dems for using the filibuster during the Bush years. It was ok for them to use it against Bush noms and it is ok for Republicans to use the filibuster against Obama noms. There is nothing wrong with extending debate through the filibuster.

          • comradi0

            But explicitly setting out to poison and obstruct it is another thing all together.

            Hey, I’ve got an idea to adress that, how about we limit their duration? Sounds great to me.

          • Brian Darling

            Debate until one side blinks.

          • bigredone

            It takes 60 votes.

            See, you get what you want.

          • antisocial

            No government is far better than more government. That “point and obstruct” is a nuisance argument. You might want to go back and look at the archives.

            You desperately need adult supervision. Real life experiences.

            PS: Just in case you haven’t figured it… We want healthcare to die. If not now, once we have control. Adults are badly needed in DC.

          • Achance

            what he/she/it was typing. If it really believed that the Democrats were filibustered and vetoed at some historic level, the government schools are even worse than I thought and the 52% are even more ignorant and deluded than I though.

        • Achance
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            have some input on the Language, since, after all, the “mistakes” of non-Southerners go to be called “the rules”? smile

          • Achance
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

            we could eventually win the War between the States! smile

          • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

            I heard someone say that in a meeting one day. Makes me cringe as does “irregardless”.

      • IJB
    • Brian Darling

      Article 1, Section 5 of the Constitution “Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.” The Senate created the filibuster rule after years of debate and changes to the rule pursuant to Article 1 of the Constitution.
      Mr. CommRadi0 – Please cite your authority for the proposition that the filibuster is unconstitutional – you can’t because it does not exist.

      • bigredone

        Sorry, Brian, I didn’t see your post before I posted above.

        I want to read a citation of comradio postition too.

        • Brian Darling

          for having my back. You will not see a cite from CommRadi0, because he is wrong. As usual, a lefty throws out wild claims without any authority at all.

    • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

      I beg your pardon.

      The correct, and adult response, as one just said, “it is a bad rule”, or, even, “should be unconstitutional”. Surely you’re not one of those law students who made up new laws as you went along, saying Bush had violated them in Iraq? Gad!

      Whether a thing is constitutional or unconstitutional requires people with a gavel. I ain’t got one, you ain’t got one.

      Either clean up your language or clean up your humility.
      Cordially

    • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

      and yet you’re worried about the Constitutionality of the filibuster?

      The Senate has the power to make its own rules under the Constitution. The Constitution in no other way speaks to the filibuster. If ther Senate wishes to abolish it, they can.

    • Finrod

      .

  • clintonformccain

    I had a poor little whipper-snapper Dartmouth grad relative throw out this nonsense about the Republicans blocking the health care debate last night around the dinner table. Poor thing, I let her have it. “A 60 vote super-majority in the Senate. 257 votes in the House. And, a Democrat in the White House. Don’t blame the Republicans. They don’t have any say in anything. If you aren’t happy about what is happening in Washington, blame the Democrats. It’s there show…”

    She tried to hit me with the Republicans stalling the vote. “Oh, really? What, for the 72 hours the most transparent administration ever promised? To read the bill? Two thousand pages and not one single member of the Senate has even read the thing. And, you want to complain about the Republicans? Did you see the deal between Obama and big pharma negoiated on C-Span? No? Neither did I?”

    And then she started in about Obama this and Obama that. “Hey, don’t complain to me about Obama. You wanted him. Everyone knew he was a snake oil salesman with 2 years of big league experience. Eveyone knew his promise to close Gitmo was a lie. Everyone knew his health care proposal was a joke. The country wanted a snake oil salesman and guess what? This is what happens when you elect a snale oil salesman. Elections matter. Don’t complain about Republicans.”

    Yeah but, people have irrational hatred of Obama. “Irrational hatred my butt! His poll numbers were off the chart a year ago. He was like the second coming accordng the pollsters. Don’t pull this everybody hated him stuff. That’s just not true.”

  • clintonformccain

    “This is not what our founders invisioned. ”

    I don’t know. It seems to me that everything about our government was specifically designed to provide layers and layers of checks and balances, thus ensuring gridlock on all but issues with overwhelming support. I think a fair argument could be made that the founding fathers truly believed the less the government did to us, the better.

    And, honestly, the schism is largely the same: the interests of the big northern cities versus the rest of the country.

    • comradi0

      You BELIEVE the founders may not disagree with this idea, but that’s all you have, is your opinion, because they enumerated it nowhere.

      Yes the created checks and balances. But the filibuster was not one of them. They are still there, you merely lost a few election cycles. It happens.

      The founders planned it that way, sorry.

      • aelie

        The Constitution establishes the Congress. That’s it. The Constitution does not specify what the procedural rules are to be, except when it comes to amending the Constitution itself. You claim that filibuster is unconstitutional. But nowhere is it defined – it is simply not in the document. It’s a procedural rules of the Senate, and the congress has every right to pass rules about it. Mr. Darling’s point of view in his post was that it’s a helpful procedural rule for the nation. Your argument about constitutionality of a procedure is completely off the topic and pointless.

        Of course you are entitled to your own opinion about the intentions of Founding Fathers. But that’s all you have in your posts also – just opinions spiced up with personal attacks. But perhaps you never intended your argument to be discussed here in the first place?

  • reaganlives

    Tyranny of the majority? Get off the soapbox. You know as well as I do that the Founders established Constitutional rights to guard against the tyranny of the majority, Senate rules had nothing to do with that. Indeed, they never envisioned the kind of obstructionism we see today because of the abuse of the filibuster. That’s all been created in the last 20-30 years. And here you are talking as if it’s some venerated founding tenet! Please! The founders wanted to the government to be able to govern when it needs to. They didn’t want a minority to obstruct such governance. If anything they’d be appalled by the modern filibuster because if it looks like anything it looks like the tyranny of the minority, or even worse, tyranny of an individual senator who is able, by ransoming his vote, to shape and determine legislation no matter what the actual majority thinks. Both the left and the right would be better off if they were allowed to govern when they hold the majority. Let the voters vote on what the majority has accomplished, not on what the minority has obstructed. Let’s return some accountability to governance and kill the filibuster.

    • comradi0

      See? Some sense. Thank you!

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        Fascists oppose all inefficiencies that get in the way of giving power to leaders, those inefficiencies the rest of us call liberty.

        • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

          …he’s in way over his head. He’s not old enough, or smart enough to be a fascist, Nothing invested.

          We could do an entire seminar on this little invasion of his. JUst run his name up top.

          Then imagine what you, one hour a week, could do their sites, Kos, etc, being an adult with a better command of the language, the facts and the Right.

          Damnnnn.

          • Achance

            thing that so many unmoderated sites have. If I so much as show my name on the local paper’s comments sections, all the local lefties start circling and hitting the “Report Abuse” button. All it takes is three and the software takes down your post unless and until you can get a human to put it back up. Lefties don’t do that free speech stuff much; it’s only free if they agree with it. Part of me would really like to have a serious disagreement with them, and I don’t even want their wives and girlfriends when we’re through with them. ‘Course, maybe with lefties, you’d be more likely to be fighting the females while the males stayed back as camp followers.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            ..who still committed evil in their fascist street fighting.

            I’m fully ready, willing,l and able to hold him accountable for his ideology.

    • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

      …for that means the shooting part of the civil war will come more quickly, rather than this long drawn out sitzkreig.

      I assume that is your gist.

    • Brian Darling

      I respectfully disagree with you and worry that you are a make believe conservative. You must be a liberal mascarading as a conservative, because no conservative would advocate making it easier to expand government by getting rid of the filibuster. The easier it is to pass legislation – either under Rs or Ds – the easier it is to expand government. Remember that Rs created a new entitlement program – the Medicare Prescription Drug Benefit and No Child Left Behind. Both Rs and Ds like to expand government and the filibuster is a tool to slow the growth of government for conservatives.
      If you love the public option – you would have it but for the filibuster.
      If you love left wing nominees – you would have much more liberal Obama cabinet members without the threat of a filibuster.
      If you love cap and trade – you would get it but for the filibuster.
      You name the left wing agenda item – if you turn the Senate into the functional equivalent of the House, then get ready for

      • Achance
        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          the concept of the separation of powers and checks and balances; and even more specifically, in the provisions of the Constitution that does require super-majorities for many governmental actions?

          • Achance

            would overturn a Senate rule regarding the extent of debate. If there were, say, a rule that said any appropriation bill required 60 votes, I think the SC might find otherwise, but merely a rule regarding the extent of debate doesn’t, I believe, impinge on any explicit Constitutional provision. I also think that courts might have thrown it out over much weightier issues in the past, e.g., the ’57 Civil Rights act where Southerners used the filibuster to reduce the Act to mere symbolism and Thurmond set the record at 29 hours of continuous speaking.

          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
      • reaganlives

        You’re not even making a serious argument. I said nothing about “expanding government” — that’s just a boogeyman you’re throwing out there so you don’t actually have to think about my argument. All I talked about is governance. Maybe that’s expanding health care for the left and maybe it’s cutting taxes for the right (those are just examples, you know what I mean if you’re honest). Point is the filibuster thwarts governance, no matter what that governance is used for, left, right or whatever. You have yet to touch any of the substance of my original post. Perhaps you are incapable and would just prefer to call me some more names. Pathetic. Again: How about a little intellectual seriousness from you.

        • Brian Darling

          If you believe that the majority should be allowed to govern with absolutely no input from the minority, then your theory works. Democrats have a big majority in the House and a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Why are they having problems governing, because they can’t keep their own caucus together. Blaming the filibuster for discipline problems within the Democrat caucus is blame shifting and making the filibuster the bogeyman for the Dems.
          Senate Majority Leader Ried “Fills the Tree” to block amendments in the Senate frequently and in the House, Speaker Pelosi has yet to put forth an open rule allowing multiple amendments in the House. The Ds have plenty of power to impose their will. Too bad they can’t eliminate horrible poll numbers and elections, then they could do what they want.
          Mr. Reaganlives – efficient governance makes it easier to grow government. The filibuster is one of the remaining tools to fight against that and slow bad legislation. Efficient governance and making it easier to pass ObamaCare and Cap and Trade are not an end that I support. I support rules that slow the creation of laws, so that the American people can participate and so all members of the Senate have a say.

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            that after about a 100 years of trying, and despite their control of the Indoctrination Centers, they haven’t hoodwinked sufficient numbers of people to allow their “SUPER MAJORITY” to ram through what most still recognize IS NOT good for the country no matter how they couch it.

            Yes, the Fillibuster is just another Tool of the “deliberately slow” body of Govt., the Senate. Any TRUE notion of something so darn important, needed, and “supposedly” positive, to move the country forward WOULD SAIL THROUGH eventually as it would have been “deliberated” over and over – over time! As much as Liberals distort/warp the Issues to tug at peoples heart-strings, people deep down and when confronted with actually THINKING about the schemes they know the Liberal schemes don’t actually HELP in the long-run – and would be another FAILED set of policies to be greeted by Liberals with yet another scheme to solve their failure. People want to help others – WITH REAL SOLUTIONS not Liberal Power/Wealth schemes! Again, it is their disdain that people after so long haven’t been hoodwinked that really irks them.

          • reaganlives

            “govern with absolutely no input from the minority”

            More intellectual dishonesty. The rise of the modern filibuster arose with the lack of bipartisanship, indeed, it’s a cause: the minority learned it could defeat the majority merely by obstructing. For you to stand here and claim that the filibuster promotes bipartisanship shows that your arguments just aren’t based in the realities of the last 30 years.

            It’s too bad the intellectual integrity of the right has fallen so far. I long for the days of Buckley when we could have a decent and serious discussion about things like Senate procedure and good governance (no matter how you define it).

          • Achance

            There’s nothing modern about the filibuster except its disuse in recent times until the Republicans took control and Democrats and communists, forgive the redundancy, faced the brutal reality that it was not cast in stone that they would always govern.

            The only time there has ever been “bi-partisanship” is during the half century of Democrat hegemony following FDR when Republicans had to be good little boys and girls to get the ocassional scrap and when media whores like McCain wanted to suck up to their “friends” across the aisle so they could get more face time on the Sunday shows.

            Anytime a Democrat asks a Republican to reach out, it is because he is too far away for them to bite his hand.

          • rbdwiggins

            I knew* Ronald Reagan, and you sir, are no Ronald Reagan.

            The Reagan I knew was keenly aware of the left’s intellectual limitations, as exemplified by my signature quote.

            Its relevance to this discussion is readily apparent.

            (*) We met multiple times on the campaign trail in ’80 and ’84.

          • Brian Darling

            I hardly think you know all that much about Senate procedure. You can claim “intellectual integrity” until the cows come home, yet I bet you can’t answer a few simple questions:
            1. How did the minority defeat the majority in this case? ObamaCare passed the Senate.
            2. How has the filibuster thwarted governance this year? Obama has passed the so called Stimulus, Cash for Clunkers, an expansion of SCHIP, a big labor bill, ObamaCare in the House and Senate, not to mention all of his bloated spending bills. Exactly what specific pieces of legislation have Rs blocked?
            3. How would the Founders be appalled by the filibuster? It has yet to be used to block one piece of legislation in this Congress.

          • bigredone

            Is the Democrat buzzword for ‘vote what we say’, and I will not accept the Democrat agenda for my own.

            It has not been a bipartisan year, and I doubt if there will ever another except on issues relating to the survival of the Republic.

            Like the repeal of Obamacare…

    • bigredone

      No, because the rights of the minorities would be trampled by a runaway mob.

      Rules of Order exist so meetings do not deteriorate into shouting matches which they will invariably do when Rules of Orders don’t exist.

      By the way, reaganlives, you are wrong about your 20-30 years timetable.

      http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/history/one_item_and_teasers/chronology.htm

      The first filibuster took place in 1841, lasted for 6 days, and took place over an issue involving THE SENATE PRINTERS.

      You are wrong, and it is proven.

      • aelie

        It is not a modern invention from partisan politics. They have been used in just about every single representative assemblies in the history, even back in the days of Roman Senate. (it’s not difficult to find this information online) It just wasn’t called that until the 19th century.

    • RedBeard

      Sounds like the Founders saw that a super-majority was called for in some cases. Why should we assume that they would necessarily frown upon Senate rules along the same lines?

      • Brian Darling

        Also, the constitution requires a super majority to overcome a presidential veto.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
      • Justin_Case

        .

      • reaganlives

        … the difference between exception and rule.

        The Founders set up exceptions to majority rule in the Senate for exceptional circumstances. The rule, which didn’t even need to be stated because they presumed it so obvious, was that all other Senate business would be conducted by the majority. They never would have believed that the Senate would one day require de facto super-majority rule on every single piece of legislation. The Founders would be totally appalled.

    • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

      …at how taxpayers are being turned into indentured servants of the Left’s client constituents. No where in the Constitution is the welfare state authorized. The federal government long ago broke free from its Constitutional restraints and has wreaked havoc on freedom ever since.

      • Achance

        broke free. America in 1860 is to Ameria in 1866 as Republican Rome was to Imperial Rome. And before somebody chimes in, that isn’t a defense of slavery – there really is more to politics than race – but rather a defense of federalism. The “unpleasantness” between ’61 and ’65 demonstrated that if the wishes of a state thwarted the wishes of the federal government, the federal government would use all necessary means to “suppress the rebellion.”

        • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

          And another often overlooked blow to federalism was the 17th Amendment making Senators elected by the population of the states rather than appointed by the states. Not only did this remove Senators’ accountability to their states it also removed the ability of the States to act as a check on federal power. We often speak of checks and balances but often forget that state appointed senators provided the states a critical check on federal power that is now gone.

  • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

    …once you weed out the minnows.

    Even a Liberal (possibly not of the Left) makes a cogent point.

    I don’t have much for Constitutional scholars, but this would be a good question and report for one to post here, as a kind of brief. I’d love to read it.

    In fact, hire a hall, and have a debate. Have dozens. Sponsor them, from Brandeis to Campbellsville University in Kentucky.

    Resolved: The Republic can function quite well (thank you) with a filibuster rule in the Senate.

    • bigredone
  • clintonformccain

    The fillibuster is irrelevant. The Democrats have 60 votes in the Senate. They can end any fillibuster at any time by simply getting their supermajority caucus to vote. The Republicans have nothing to do with it.

    If the Democrates are having trouble lining up their 60 votes, that’s a Democratic Party issue. I don’t know why we are even discussing it here. Replublicans are irrelevant to that.

    • bigredone
  • hickorystick

    Bush had two Democrat Senates and Two Republican Senates. He got Most of what he wanted but not everything. Life can be that way. The problem with Lefties is that they expect with enough political power they can mold the world to fit their expectations. What the Left needs is not power or a super intelligent/articulate President, but character.

    • mbecker908

      to Jimmy Carter.

      • hickorystick

        Carter was probably the worst. The American mood is already there. That would require a lot of destruction and suicidal policy to match Carter’s level though. I would nominate Obama for Anti-American Rookie of the Year.

        • rbdwiggins

          for some of Carter’s destructive policies to bear fruit. The near disintegration of the real estate and financial markets, responsible for the current recession, and the clear failure of government schools, bear his signature.

          I don’t believe we’ll have to wait nearly that long to feel the effects of the current Administration’s policies.

          • hickorystick

            to help start the Ayatollahs terrorism network too.
            Bush in this point of his term had the Patriot Act nearly in place, and was on his way to winning the Afghan War. p.s. he was also able to work together with Muslims in the Northern Front Alliance.

  • bobbymike

    We will just wait until we have control of the three branches and then disband the entire unconstitutional parts of the federal government.

    Because I am SURE they will let us do it because we have the majority, RIGHT!!!!

  • WarEagle01

    Although not likely, it is certainly possible the Republicans will take over the Senate next year. If not then, then certainly within the next decade. Are they really saying they are perfectly OK with an increasingly conservative GOP imposing it’s agenda on the country with just a simple majority? They won’t be complaining at that time about the lack of filibuster to “save” us from the eeevil Republicans? Did Krugman really win a Nobel prize? Seriously. He just doesn’t seem that bright.

    • BooBooKitty

      you can find them at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box.

  • Brian Darling

    SumOfChange at Daily Kos alleged today that “RedState.com Against Filibuster Before They Were For It.” (Only 17 comments)
    I do not represent the views of Red State, therefore the premise of that post is wrong. I bet posters at the Daily Kos differ on issues every once in a while. Nice try at a cheap shot against Red State SumOfChange. Glad you read us and wish you would respect a difference of opinion between two posters at this esteemed conservative web site.
    The so called Constitutional Option, Nuclear Option, and all other attempts to curtail the filibuster were wrong during the Bush years and they are wrong now. I bet if I took a few moments to Google Daily Kos, I would be able to claim that The Daily Kos was “For Filibuster Before They Were Against It.”

    • RedBeard

      Certainly not a font of logic.

  • orwell

    Whether the filibuster is constitutional seems to be beside the point. Even if it is unconstitutional, there is no mechanism to enforce such a principle (other than through elections, which are available in any event), as the courts would refuse to hear the question as a political question. Also, if it is constitutional, that does not answer the question of whether it is a good idea.

    Certainly through much of our history, it was a good idea in that it promoted stability and prevented shifting majorities from jerking the country to and fro. Now, however, a strong argument could be made that the bloated institutions of our government are too well protected by the filibuster and that the country would be better off if a strong, but not filibuster-proof, majority could scale back the bloat.

    On the other hand, there is risk associated with such a course in that the party of big government could entrench itself by passing all sorts of spending programs and getting the body politic hooked on the juice (see, e.g., Europe).

    I don?t know what the correct answer is, but I do think that the filibuster, as currently employed works to permanently entrench the sort of Robin Hood governance that we all decry and that something must change to bring the country off this destructive course.

  • Dan Perrin

    Even when we take back the Senate and the House and the White House!