Today the White House patted itself on the back for an economic ’stimulus’ which they claim is proving incredibly effective at restoring economic growth:
Estimates of the impact of the ARRA made by comparing actual economic performance to the predictions of a plausible, statistical baseline suggest that the Recovery Act added roughly 2.3 percentage points to real GDP growth in the second quarter and is likely to add even more to growth in the third quarter…
This analysis indicates that the ARRA and other policy actions caused employment in August to be slightly more than 1 million jobs higher than it otherwise would have been.
The primary reason that things are going so swimmingly is that the White House is pumping money into the economy:
We find that as of the end of August, $151.4 billion of the original $787 billion has been outlaid or has gone to American taxpayers and businesses in the form of tax reductions. An additional $128.2 billion has been obligated, which means that the money is available to recipients once they make expenditures.
So by virtue of Barack Obama’s policies, somewhere between $151 and $280 billion has been spent by Uncle Sam. But how can the White House be so confident that the plan is ‘working?’ The bright minds at the Council of Economic Advisers compare current reality to a hypothetical baseline - a baseline of what would have happened without the spending:
To address this issue, in this section we present a sensible statistical forecast of the likely path of GDP and employment in the absence of stimulus. We can then interpret the discrepancy between this forecast and actual developments as a measure of the impact of policy.
The good news is, this baseline is accurate; you have their word on that. It’s not like the last one - the one that showed unemployment never touching 8 percent as long as we passed the ’stimulus.’ Even the White House will admit that one was wrong. But even though the CEA was comically wrong on that one, you can trust that this hypothetical baseline is right.
One way that the CEA calculates jobs created is through a multiplier. It’s assumed that when the federal government pours money into the economy, there is a correlation between federal spending and economic activity.
A natural way to estimate the effects of the ARRA on employment and GDP is to use existing estimates of the macroeconomic effects of fiscal policy. This was one approach used by the CEA to estimate the likely effects of the Act based on the information available soon after the Act was passed. This methodology uses mainstream estimates of economic multipliers for the effects of fiscal stimulus.
But while the Obama administration asserts that it has spent something less than $280 billion of the stimulus bill so far, the ’stimulus’ is not the only federal policy effectively ‘putting money’ into the economy. Every dollar that the federal government does not take out of the economy through taxation is effectively a dollar it puts into the economy - at least for the purposes of this discussion. If Barack Obama had raised taxes by $200 billion for example, it would reduce economic growth by some amount.
So if the Obama administration is going to take credit for some hypothetical number of jobs created by the money it put into the economy, we ought to consider other policies that create economic growth by putting money into the economy - for example: the Bush tax cuts.
According to a 2007 estimate by the Congressional Budget Office, President Bush’s 2001 and 2003 tax cuts are putting $245 billion into the economy this year, and $269 billion next year. What is the economic effect of the Bush tax cuts? We can’t know - this entire discussion is hypothetical. I suspect that some bright Member of President Bush’s economic team could give an estimate. But there is no question that it is having an effect. After all, who thinks the economy would be doing as well or better if we raised taxes by $245 billion this year?
In fact, before she became Chair of President Obama’s Council of Economic Advisers, Cristina Romer argued that tax cuts did more to spur economic growth than federal spending. So going by her guidelines, it’s likely that George Bush’s tax cuts are now spurring more growth and creating more jobs than Barack Obama’s spending.
If Barack Obama wants to base his presidency on ‘what ifs’ and calculations of how many angels fit on the head of a pin, then we should welcome that argument. Democrats opposed President Bush’s tax cuts from the get-go, and are eager to repeal them. But if Barack Obama wants to claim credit by saying that the economy would have been worse without his policies, then let’s figure out how much worse it would have been without Bush’s policies.

And How Many Have Lost Thier Jobs Because of the Stimulus
jimmuy8 Thursday, September 10th at 5:43PM EDT (link)I mean, as long as we are in the fairytale land of “makin’ stuff up” why don’t we figure the negative amplifier of such massive debt; the private investment that went to fund these drunken sailors is private investment NOT going to private enterprise.
How many businesses laid off workers or even shut down because private investment money that otherwise would have been available for expansion or day-to-day operations has dried up and withers away in Washington?
I’m sure that somewhere there is an economist who’d maybe be smart enough to run those numbers–and while I’m in dreamland, why not have a Republican who’d get on the air and shout those numbers far and wide every time someone dare talk about jobs saved.
I have to admit that I could not bring myself
Lynda Friday, September 11th at 1:55PM EDT (link)to watch kingO Wednesday night as he gave his 264th speech since taking office 262 days before…..
But there has enough recapping of that speech that it really didn’t matter and to top it off, he felt the need to make another speech Thursday morning to nurses, “I just love nurses” he says….if I were Michelle, I would keep a close watch on him. We all know how Washington, D.C. seems to effect the libido of politicians, aides, secretaries and others who drink the water!!
kingO is working very hard to push thru HIS healthcare bill….he makes it sound like the sky will fall if it doesn’t get passed now even though it won’t take effect for several years!! What is the gosh darn hurry?? He has mentioned several times historical milestones, namely past Presidents who were remembered because of something they did. kingO wants to be remembered as the president who changed the direction of the United States of America and his second step is healthcare because it effects our economy in dozens of ways. If he can institute a change there, he can continue on with his plan! His first step, his stimulus package was just the first arrow that he has shot into our economy. It’s effects have been negative when you consider all of the Americans who are now out of work because of it. And during kingO’s remarks to his favorite kind of women, he mentioned the huge numbers of folks who have lost their health insurance in the last few months….I nearly fell from my chair when he said that. Does he really think that people are so stupid that they can’t or won’t see that they lost their insurance because of what he has done?? The folks who are struggling trying to find work know better than anyone who is responsible!!
Good Point
hondav65 Thursday, September 10th at 5:43PM EDT (link)Very good point cuz next year the Bush Tax Cuts go bye-bye and I’m willing to bet things will go even more sinker again.
God help us. We have a blind man at the wheel.
I disagree
azred Thursday, September 10th at 8:04PM EDT (link)He is not blind. He has his sights pointed in a very specific direction. The actions speak loudly that he very good sight. He could care less the damage he is doing. The goals are clear, and he will achieve them no matter the cost (in his mindset). With the Lame Stream covering his butt, he can say anything he wants and it is so. A fairy tale is true if he says so. The LSM concur. The left shouts hooray and it is fact. He is banking on a) the blindness and apathy of Americans - with the LSM help, b) the swift path he can ram through with the majority in place, and c) that he gets it all in place before the house of cards crashes down. And worse, when c) happens, he will claim another crisis and take larger and faster steps as a result.
I like the LSM-LameStreamMedia
Common_Cents Thursday, September 10th at 8:59PM EDT (link)That should replace MSM as MSM gives them wayyyy too much credit.
“Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake.” Napoleon - Well, unless he is ruining your country! Common Cents
A cult of personality arises when a country’s leader uses mass media to create a heroic public image, often through unquestioning flattery and praise.[1] Cults of personality are often found in dictatorships.
I created 2 jobs in the last month and the only taxpayer who had to pay was me.
nessa Thursday, September 10th at 7:05PM EDT (link)One full time, the other part time and we’re still trying to fill one full time position. I’ve also over the last four months enriched the coffers of the Hoke County NC government by purchasing a zoning permit, a building inspection, a Health Inspection and liscensing fees for my artist. I should also count a job as saved when I had to make the bathroom handicapped accessible utilizing one of the local plumbers who worked all weekend to do it for me, and billed me appropriately. We didn’t qualify for any ARRA funding either.
Its part of my “refuse to recognize the recession” program. I’m an American, thats what we do with the liberties God provided and our Founding Fathers recognized, take chances, take care of our own, pursue happiness. I’ve done more for the economy in Hoke Co since the ARRA was passed than Obama, Pelosi and Reid combined, of course out performing those three isn’t a very lofty goal.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
Thank you.
jlucasmckay Thursday, September 10th at 7:18PM EDT (link)My brother’s a laid-off building supervisor in SW Florida - and if it wasn’t for people putting like you, money into the local economy down there, he’d have had no work for the last year and a half. I can make that assertion without resorting to “statistical baselines” of any kind. Thank you.
No thanks necessary jlucas, it's all motivated by greed
nessa Thursday, September 10th at 8:24PM EDT (link)purely typical capitalist greed. What I was trying to point out in my reply was that Americans are now and always will do what they can, in thick or thin. All government has to do is get out of the way. The farther they get out of the way, lowering taxes would be stepping back quite a ways, the better it is for everyone. We don’t need or want government doing for us.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
No thanks necessary jlucas, it's all motivated by greed
nessa Thursday, September 10th at 8:24PM EDT (link)purely typical capitalist greed. What I was trying to point out in my reply was that Americans are now and always will do what they can, in thick or thin. All government has to do is get out of the way. The farther they get out of the way, lowering taxes would be stepping back quite a ways, the better it is for everyone. We don’t need or want government doing for us.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
I too am in construction in South West Florida
Michael Dugas Thursday, September 10th at 10:44PM EDT (link)I’m just south of Tampa in Bradenton and work here is in serious decline. Praise G-d I’m working but it’s as close to dead as I have ever seen it an I’m 32 years in trade. My office phone and cell phone ring all day with people begging for work, offering to work at greatly reduced wages and willing to do anything. It tears me up.
We do mostly all commercial construction, some multifamily or custom residential if one of out commercial clients asks. We happen to have a really good reputation in this area and that plus our constant work at keeping overhead really low has enabled us to competitively bid what work there is and keep most of our hourly guys working with only a couple of short down times. Things are extremely tense and alot of us are very worried by the fact that what work we are getting is almost exclusively tax dollar infrastructure work. Schools, state and county projects etc. In the last 5 months I have only had one job that was a private business enterprise and that contract had been signed for 13 months.
The steady emptying of commercial/retail space all over the area and stagnant and or declining economic growth from private enterprise scares me …..seriously.
To go on television and try to pass off to the country that the recession is over and that we’re on the rebound is a self serving
lie with the only growth being the growth of government, growth of the deficit and the growth in the number of lies Obama is going to have to try and remember…or at least his speech writer will.
Intro to Federalist Papers; section 5;
paragraph 4.
“…dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the zeal for a firm and efficient government.”
I only scored 17 on the Obama Test
Michael, I feel your pain
Jack_Savage Thursday, September 10th at 11:01PM EDT (link)My territory is in VA, which is in awful shape, but some of my good buddies are in FL and it has been very bad there for a LONG time. I can say without any fear of being wrong that under the current administration’s policies, commercial construction figures will be worse in 2010 than in 2009, and that is when we will see some people go under. A lot of them, in fact.
We hire the best to forecast for us, and do you know when they say things will turn?
2011.
I wonder why.
My wife is in SW Fla too. Things are just as bad further south.
archer52 Thursday, September 10th at 11:05PM EDT (link)She is a talented artist and home designer/decorator. Been in business for years and this year she just flattened out. She gets up every day and starts all over trying to find work. Something I just admire in her, because I couldn’t do it myself.
In today’s market where good honest dependable people are harder to find she stands out as the type of person you would want next to you on a project; on time, on budget and in focus.
Yet, she is turned away again and again. Mostly the people she did do work for are now gone. Two thirds of the Chamber membership is out of business of left town to find work elsewhere.
This economy will recover, not as fast as those that didn’t take the stimulus route. I understand several are already out of the recession.
But with Obama driving this economy like a five year old with a sugar high, it may take longer.
Today I looked on Craigslist
mom2oneson Thursday, September 10th at 11:42PM EDT (link)for some help with moving some heavy stuff out of my apartment to the dumpster. Occasionally through the years I have gone there and hired someone to help me with things like that since I can’t lift it all myself. I couldn’t believe how many posters were on there saying they would do any jobs.They were obviously the ambitious type looking for work posting on Craigslist not the waiting for a call type from an application they put in. Two years ago I was happy just to find someone that wasn’t a moving company and that had time!
Let' say they did save 1M jobs...
Spartan4Life Thursday, September 10th at 7:38PM EDT (link)….and let’s further stipulate that only half the $787B has been pissed away, er, I mean, spent.
By my math that’s about $394,000 per job “saved”. And people want to say that government isn’t efficient? Pishaw.
Green Jobs...
yoyo Thursday, September 10th at 9:43PM EDT (link)The only jobs he has saved are the ‘green jobs.’
Astroturf is green, right? ACORN trees are green, right?
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
‘If you seek peace, prepare for war!’
=============================
Pukin’ Dogs - The Fighting 143
Sans Reproache
=============================
The ‘yoyo’ replaced my cigarettes Four Years Ago….
liar liar, pants on fire
kewe65 Thursday, September 10th at 8:18PM EDT (link)ha - The CBO report says NO SUCH THING about Bush’s tax cuts “putting $245 billion into the economy this year, and $269 billion next year.”
What it actually says is “JCT estimated the revenue effects of EGTRRA and JGTRRA at the time the acts were considered in 2001 and 2003, respectively. Taken together, those estimates imply a loss of revenues totaling $165 billion in 2007″
Yes, folks, LOSSES in 2007.
Here’s the rest of that paragraph:
“As you requested, CBO has calculated the debt-service costs that would result in 2007 from the legislation under an assumption that they were financed in full by additional debt rather than
offset elsewhere in the budget. On that basis, CBO estimates that the revenue loss in JCT’s projections would lead to additional debt-service costs of $46 billion in 2007, for a total budgetary cost of $211 billion. On the same basis, the agency estimates the total budgetary costs, including interest, for 2008 through 2011 to be
$233 billion, $245 billion, $269 billion, and $215 billion, respectively.”
You have DELIBERATELY misinterpreted and misrepresented the data in the report. This is not money going into the economy, this is budget costs based SOLELY on the premise the report was created - under the assumption that it was financed by additional debt, which means thanks to the tax cuts no additional money went into the economy - it is a net deficit increase with no balanced economic benefit.
please do not insult the intelligence of your readers by irresponsibly projecting false information to support a baseless claim.
Now I am glad you read the whole bill including cross references? not stop stinking up the board.
DONTREADONME Thursday, September 10th at 8:28PM EDT (link)You have not done your homework. Now go now and read the Immigration and Naturalization Act and cross reference that with the appropriate sections in the bill and you will find out how stupid you look. Thanks for playing
“The UN is right? you can’t be any more “un”; Than you are right now, the UN is undone, Another mushroom cloud, another smoking gun, The threat is real, the Locust King has come, Don’t tell me the truth; I don’t like what they’ve done, Just give me ammo for the United Abominations”-Megadeth
BTW, troll your last sentence is funny, because...
DONTREADONME Thursday, September 10th at 8:33PM EDT (link)that is exactly what is going on by the Democrats and the 0bama administration. Did you miss the point of this post? Do not insult my intelligence with your lack of reading comprehension!
“The UN is right? you can’t be any more “un”; Than you are right now, the UN is undone, Another mushroom cloud, another smoking gun, The threat is real, the Locust King has come, Don’t tell me the truth; I don’t like what they’ve done, Just give me ammo for the United Abominations”-Megadeth
Do rational adults even say "liar, liar pants on fire"?
ocleverone Thursday, September 10th at 8:40PM EDT (link)You are out gunned, out classed and outsmarted here kewe. Go find a nice Xbox site to play on.
To me, “consensus” seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects … There are still people in my party who believe in “consensus” politics. I regard them as Quislings, as traitors … I mean it. — Margaret Thatcher
LMAO ocleverone! nt
nessa Thursday, September 10th at 8:45PM EDT (link)“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
Well, I say it... oh. Right.
Moe Lane Thursday, September 10th at 8:46PM EDT (link)My wife would laugh her head off if she ever caught me calling myself a ‘rational adult.’
Moe Lane
PS: Yes, he’s gone. While it’s amusing to see somebody rant about Birchers, it’s an amusement that soon palls.
Check out my new blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (blogging-related) wish list.
there seems to be a lot of "" marks in his comment...
DONTREADONME Thursday, September 10th at 8:49PM EDT (link)which leads me to believe that 1) he has no idea what he is talking about and 2) he never read the health coverage bill that he claimed in another thread where he said liar, liar.
Oclever, XBox sight, lol. I think he missed the point of this whole post. We pretty much can say that GW saved 30 million jobs after 2001 because he prevented further terrorist attacks. And the I can predict the weather tomorrow, Partly to Mostly cloudy, with a 50% chance of rain and it will be somewhere over 50F. I love these guys, the guy pulls a few quotes and Voila’ he’s a genius. Never ceases to amaze me.
“The UN is right? you can’t be any more “un”; Than you are right now, the UN is undone, Another mushroom cloud, another smoking gun, The threat is real, the Locust King has come, Don’t tell me the truth; I don’t like what they’ve done, Just give me ammo for the United Abominations”-Megadeth
Starting with "liar liar pants on fire"...
nessa Thursday, September 10th at 8:54PM EDT (link)…and ending with “please do not insult the intelligence of your readers”, I don’t know, maybe not the best choice of words there. Still LMAO!
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
Contributor to The Minority Report
I do...
yoyo Thursday, September 10th at 9:37PM EDT (link)I yelled it all night last night during his speech. LIAR LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!
I think I owe the President an apology for my lack of decorum and manners interrupting his speech. I have already apologized to my family….
‘:o)~
On second thought, NAH.
I was actually waiting for the lightning to strike him down a couple of times. There just seemed to be too much sunshine and roses for lightning, I guess.
Still, it doesn’t take away from the fact that kewe is, well, … never mind. “…nothing good to say, don’t say anything…” and all that.
Greg
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
‘If you seek peace, prepare for war!’
=============================
Pukin’ Dogs - The Fighting 143
Sans Reproache
=============================
The ‘yoyo’ replaced my cigarettes Four Years Ago….
Stupidity. Read your Macroeconomics book again and re-write what you've posted. nt
Rod_Patrick Thursday, September 10th at 8:51PM EDT (link)THE FED is the main reason for the slowing of job losses and that was in the trillions and
Mike gamecock DeVine Friday, September 11th at 12:45AM EDT (link)is now over. The other reason for the end of gdp losses was the reaching of the bottom in housing prices in selective areas, but the remaining areas that have not reached bottom are a major threat of a double dip.
But the main problem that puts a ceiling on any recovery os that ObamaDem policies discourage business expansion and formation; have since dems took over Congress in 2007 and have only gotten exponentially worse since Inauguration Day.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
Why build something that will be confiscated?
Achance Friday, September 11th at 7:09AM EDT (link)The only way they can satisfy their mob of looters and moochers is to confiscate our property and income. The only real question is do they do it by direct state action, e.g., the ACORN guy comes over and tells you how many families are moving into your house, or do they do it by taxation or inflation. There really is no other alternative.
The worst part is that nothing Comrade Obama can do will actually satisfy them. The question soon becomes, “What have you done for me lately?”
In Vino Veritas
right Gamecock and...
kyle8 Friday, September 11th at 7:12AM EDT (link)even if we do get a small expansion, which I expect by end of year, it will quickly be stiffeled by the huge debt. There is simply no way that Geithner and Bernanke will be able to stop inflation.
There will be a growing political pressure to inflate the economy. I expect that he weaker dollar will cause much higher commodity and fuel prices and that will also stifle expansion.
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
It will be '70s - early '80s stagflation and will wreak havoc
Achance Friday, September 11th at 7:26AM EDT (link)on people with fixed incomes or who work for wages. Comrade Obama will be able to brag that there is no inflation because the CPI will be flat or even negative because shelter is such a huge component of BLS’ market basket. While there is no inflation as measured by the CPI, the cost of everything real people have to buy on a daily or weekly basis is going up. But, since the CPI isn’t going up, nobody on SS or who has a pension can get an increase because they’re all linked to CPI. Likewise, wage earners can’t get increases because of stagnant or falling demand for labor. Even unions won’t be able to get much out of private or third sector employers for the same reasons. If they pass Card Check there’ll be a whole lot of wage inflation in the early years as they “organize” new employers and get their first contracts from arbitrators, but after that, the employers will start shedding labor and that will drive down the price of labor.
It is going to be a grim, gray world for a very long time. I went through something like it after the oil price crash in ‘86; it was miserable.
In Vino Veritas
Not Again?
michigan Friday, September 11th at 8:49AM EDT (link)The worst is yet to come I think as well. I remember the early 80’s with interest rates well into the teens after the Carter years; this could be a replay of that or worse. Some say hyperinflation is possible and even the Chi-Coms are so shaky on this administration’s policies, that they are making sounds like capitalists, warning us of dire results of this fiscal madness. Keynesian economics has been hijacked by the left as a vehicle to their political ends such as the Islamofacists have done with a religion.
I enjoyed your distillation of the different “flavors” of communism and images came to mind from years past beginning when I was very young of watching evening news clips showing the horrors of escaping East Berlin; individuals, couples and groups being shot down like game by tower guards. Nikita Khrushchev pounding his shoe on the podium, threatening to “bury” us. The threat of a USSR nuclear attack, duck and cover in grade school, a missile crisis in our hemisphere, the aggressive nature of that ideology to control humanity. Communism was demonized back then. That type of reporting and those burning images are gone from the contemporary MSM landscape.
When speaking to most young people about communism, there is usually a blank stare and they launch into the evils of capitalism. Of recent, Ed Schultz on his leftist radio program said “why are they afraid of a little Marxism or Socialism?” Bill O’Reilly stated a few nights ago interviewing Glenn Beck “communism isn’t a threat any longer in this country.” This is the mindset that opens the door to usher in what we now have in our highest office. Perhaps President Reagan did us, in the free world, a great disservice by eliminating a world model of evil by saying those famous words, “Mr. Gorbachov, tear down this wall.”
The metastasizing communist cancer has been reduced to an intellectual discussion, not even a debate. The youth that grew up without visual and aural reflection of it now infiltrate the newsrooms and halls of academia.
The exact human controls that are trying to be imposed on us now in this country and elsewhere throughout history were revolted against by the founding fathers of America.
I think a little Marx and Engels with coffee this morning would be appropriate.
Half the harm that is done in this world
Is due to people who want to feel important
They don’t mean to do harm
But the harm does not interest them.
Or they do not see it, or they justify it
Because they are absorbed in the endless struggle
To think well of themselves.
T. S. Eliot
You're kidding, right?
Brian Faughnan Friday, September 11th at 6:59AM EDT (link)I trust that you are kidding, because the alternative is that you are a moron.
Just in case you’re a moron, this is how you read a CBO score: if CBO says that a given policy - such as Bush’s two significant tax packages - result in a ‘loss of revenue,’ it means a loss of revenue *to the federal government.* CBO sort of assumes that the money belongs to the government, so if the revenue is ‘lost,’ that’s CBO’s way of saying it somehow got left in the hands of the people who earned it.
Put simply, tax cuts=lost revenue.
You know what though? I apologize for calling you a moron. It probably would have been kinder to say ‘you think like a liberal,’ which means more or less the same thing, but doesn’t sound quite as insulting.
Brian I would be far more insulted if you accused me of thinking like a liberal nt
kyle8 Friday, September 11th at 7:07AM EDT (link)nt
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle