« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

MEMBER DIARY

Arguments I Never Expected: Hayworth Is No More Conservative than McCain

Let's Look at the Facts, Rather than Democrat Attacks

My friend Matt Lewis pens a piece today about the coming primary between John McCain and former Representative JD Hayworth. I suppose it’s a preview of how McCain plans to try to split Hayworth from his conservative base. But if this is the best that McCain can do, then he’s headed for trouble.

First off, full disclosure: I have liked JD Hayworth since my days on Capitol Hill, and I had the chance to work with him and his staff (a little) on taxes and other legislation. I like JD because he tells it like he sees it, and he embraces conservative values down to his core. I respect and admire John McCain, and I appreciate the great work he has done for conservative causes at times in his career. However, I know – and anyone who has watched McCain knows – that if he is re-elected, he will at some point in the next 6 years work against conservatives and with liberals on energy taxes, free speech restrictions, or God-knows what other liberal cause suddenly consumes him. I believe that given the choice of a genuine conservative, and a conservative-when-voters-demand-it, conservatives should back the former – JD Hayworth.

Matt does not try to argue that McCain is more conservative than Hayworth, but that Hayworth isn’t ‘a conservative hero.’ It’s worth noting that Hayworth’s lifetime rating from the American Conservative Union is 98% – compared to 81% for McCain. And if you look at McCain’s ratings from groups like the ACU and others, you’ll note that in between elections there are years when his ratings drop considerably – because McCain is a maverick who has often worked against conservatives during his years in the Senate.

There’s an allegation that Hayworth is a big spender. Really? His rating from Citizens Against Government Waste is 89% while John McCain’s is 88% – a wash. Despite his rhetoric, John McCain is not without major spending problems. Consider his response to the economic crisis.

McCain voted for the $850 billion bailout bill that contained $150 billion in special interest earmarks. He called the bill “an obscenity,” but voted for it anyway, saying it was necessary. To make matters worse, McCain also proposed spending $300 billion to buy up every bad mortgage in America, a plan worthy of Barack Obama, and one the National Review called “a full bailout for lenders” that would let “reckless types off the hook” while putting taxpayers on it.

Who’s the big spender here?

And there was John McCain just yesterday on Good Morning America talking up tax cuts, worrying that the Bush tax cuts will expire, and reminiscing about the Gipper: “If you cut people’s taxes I think it stimulates the economy. We certainly found that out with President Reagan.” This sounds suspiciously like another election year conversion.

Two points here. First, John McCain voted against both the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, arguing that they were tax cuts for the rich. Second, McCain wasn’t always so fond of Reagan’s economic record. According to the Washington Post, “In December 1994, after his party swept to control of Congress on tax-cut promises, [McCain] challenged Ronald Reagan’s legacy when he warned, ‘I think we would be making a terrible mistake to go back to the ’80s, where we cut all of those taxes and all of a sudden now we’ve got a debt that we’ve got to pay on an annual basis that is bigger than the amount that we spend on defense.’”

Does that sound like a supply-sider to you?

Matt says that that Hayworth won’t buck his leadership because he supported the 527 Reform Act along with 208 of his Republican colleagues (just 20 voted “No”). (Let’s first note that there would have been no 527 Reform Bill if not for McCain-Feingold.) But how can it credibly be argued that Hayworth is too likely to go along with leadership in violation of conservative principle, when Hayworth was more responsible than anyone in Congress for defeating George Bush’s amnesty proposal?

No one in Congress did more to derail the amnesry than Hayworth – and he paid a price for his opposition. It is worth noting that when Hayworth publicly came out against McCain’s amnesty plan, McCain’s office responded by threatening to badmouth Hayworth in the media over Jack Abramoff. He could have folded, but he didn’t and all conservatives owe him a debt of gratitude for doing so much to defeat that effort.

And regarding Abramoff, Matt’s facts are off. First, it is simply not true that Hayworth was “heavily involved” with Abramoff; he certainly was less involved with Abramoff than McCain was with Charles Keating. And it is demonstrably untrue that he was the “largest recipient of campaign money from Abramoff.” That’s simply a phony Democratic talking point.

Hayworth has said he never had a meeting with Jack Abramoff. I’ve never seen an argument to the contrary. And Abramoff’s contributions to Hayworth’s campaign and PAC totalled $2,250 – nothing after 1999.

To me, the central question Arizona primary voters must decide is who is going to represent them better in the Senate for the next 6 years. Do they want to elect someone with a strong record of adherence to conservative values, or do they want to elect someone who seems to have been an adversary as often as he has an ally? As I pointed out earlier, Arizona conservatives who support John McCain know that if he is re-elected, they will regret their vote sometime in the next 6 years. Will it be because of cap-and-trade, or amnesty, or taxes, or Guantanamo Bay, or terrorist interrogation, or – who knows – traditional marriage?

Do Arizona conservative really want to play Charlie Brown, and fall for Lucy and the football… again?

COMMENTS

  • JadedByPolitics

    in the FINAL 12-18 months of every six years because he is a PROGRESSIVE right up until the minute he knows he needs to be re-elected. I like JD Hayworth and I always have for one reason specifically, his stand on ILLEGAL immigration. He has said what WE have said ALWAYS! JD does not just jump into the fray when it is convenient on the AMNESTY debate he is front and center in being BLUNT and N ON-PC! I will definitely donate to JD and look forward to the race. I wish Palin had not done work for McCain but if I have to FIGHT her too so be it!

  • fpete13527

    Most will not agree, however, I maintain that John McCain has been the most detrimental influence in the GOP, short of the current NRSC, NRCC, and RNC staff (who get their advice from McCain.)

    Couldnt find one of the older diary entries that clearly summed up McCain as a complete opportunist bozo who is consistant on one thing and one thing only…..attacking conservatives.

    Hayworth isnt perfect but he is a strong conservative who I beleive will consistantly vote conservative….AND REPLACE MCCAIN.

    • gemimail

      If you want to get rid of the RINO’s in red states, you can usually safely do that, but there is usually a risk. Several folks want to dump McCain in Arizona. They have their chance since J.D. Hayworth is running against him in the Republican primary. The only problem is that J. D. has a reputation, whether deserved or not, as a blowhard. He lost a safe Republican House seat that contains Scottsdale which is about as red as you can get. Maybe he can beat McCain in the primary but can he defeat Rodney Glassman in the general election? Do we really want to take a chance on losing a safe Senate seat? I am no fan of McCain since I was the campaign manager for a Republican opponent in his very first run for office in Arizona but facts are facts.

  • ashen

    and honestly I’ll have to do more homework on these two. I know more about McCain than Hayworth. I remember Hayworth was the sports guy on one of the news channels here for awhile, then went to the House, then came back and started his own radio show. I think he got beat by Harry Mitchell D-AZ if I’m not mistaken. He’s my current Rep and I hope Schweikert beats him this year. I’m probably going to vote for Hayworth because as you pointed out, McCain has a habit of tying himself to liberal causes. I’m not for amnesty and Sherriff Joe of Maricopa county has been doing a good job on that but his numbers are falling as well. Not sure why. You want the sherriff to be a hardass and he certainly is that. One thing I am certain about is the lack of enthusiasm in McCain adds. One is a woman lamenting the prospects of Hayworth replacing McCain. It states that McCain is leading the fight against Obama and his radical agenda, I’m paraphrasing, but that doesn’t fly with me because McCain looks more and more like a typical opportunist these days especially since his take on obama about having nothing to fear from his presidency. Now, gonna go listen to Hugh Hewitt where he is speaking about having both men on his show!! How cool is that.

    • http://www.phxgonline.com phxg

      I’m interested to see how the craziness of Cindy and especially Megan play out.

      Some reading on Arpaio and MCSO, don’t be fooled: http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/Common/Img/Mission%20Unaccomplished.pdf

      • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

        he proceeded to his Mr. Bi-Partisanship, but only just so much to provide for that Progressive Liberal Incremental-ism to float semi under the rader, to ensure his return over and over regardless of who was/is in the WhiteHouse.

        If we had thrown “Senator Aricept” (John McCain) under his so-called “Straight-talk Express” bus long ago we wouldn’t have had to put up with him as the Presidential Candidate this last time around. He must be tossed (toss McCain – time to toss McCain under his “supposed” Straight Talk Bus (further thoughts on the need to Toss McCain NOW!)) at any/all costs now so-as to stop him from pulling his BS undermining Conservatism in the future. I MAKE AN EXCEPTION HERE AND SAY THAT EVEN A DEMOCRAT WOULD BE BETTER THAN MCCAIN!

        • jfindl2

          “I MAKE AN EXCEPTION HERE AND SAY THAT EVEN A DEMOCRAT WOULD BE BETTER THAN MCCAIN”

          I understand if you want to dump McCain for Hayworth, the thinking being that Arizona is a reddish purple state and in this election year Hayworth will win fairly comfortably. This idea makes a lot of a sense, I get it. What I don’t understand is “a Democrat would be better than McCain” meme that occasionally pops up like a weed that won’t die. A Democrat would support all the things John McCain does that drives conservatives crazy, and more. Its obvious that McCain holds views that are contrary to many conservative positions, but he is worlds better than any Democrat in Congress.

          • Flagstaff

            It applies only to the general election, and it paraphrases McCain’s own ads. My line is what they should end with.

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            and it all has to do with, again, the same battle we have to fight every 10,12,16 years of “There is NO DIFFERENCE between the Democrats and Republicans”… and it mostly has to do with “Senator Aricept” (John McCain)!!!!! As for my making this “exception” I hope (jfindl2) you’ll be so kind as to refer to my detailed comment 9009 here, further down thread as to why I am one of the few with the gall to even put forth such a LONG TERM STRATEGY move as a matter of last-resort if McCain isn ‘t beaten in this Primary. I am about GOD, Family, Country, then Party, and if I put forth the first two priorities the later two fall easily into place :)

            Take care!!!

        • http://erickbrockway.wordpress.com/ Erick Brockway

          He must be tossed (toss McCain – time to toss McCain under his ?supposed? Straight Talk Bus (further thoughts on the need to Toss McCain NOW!)) at any/all costs now so-as to stop him from pulling his BS undermining Conservatism in the future. I MAKE AN EXCEPTION HERE AND SAY THAT EVEN A DEMOCRAT WOULD BE BETTER THAN MCCAIN!

          Specifically which Democrat would you prefer to McCain?

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            I understand that many might not want to agree with, let alone have the gumption to openly suggest as I have, to SACRAFICE MCCAINS SEAT FOR THE LONG TERM GOALS/BENEFIT of the long term. I have never advocated such before and probably never think that any other Republican (RINO) would be worth making the “exception” of any R over any D any day, but I am compelled to put forth such this time.

            So many are tired of spending time, energy, efforts, money, Political capital, PERSONAL CREDIBILITY, in having to stand up for McCain (especially this last LAME Campaign of his)…. We hear it all the time – ‘There is NO DIFFERENCE in the Parties’ and we all know darn well that McCain is the classic, and easy, example cited. It is time to send the message, loud and clear, for a CHANGE, to all the other RINOs, by removing the LEAD RINO McCain.

            That is all…. it is all a matter of long term strategy! Again, while we are worried about improving Republican chances across the country, McCain works with Bayh to help his re-election bid chances rather than help place us in a position to really, really, really, challenge him (maybe that news of late doesn’t upset you as much as the rest of us, I’m tired of McCain helping Democrats rather than Republicans. Tired of his betrayels, of which we know more will come, now is the time to eliminate him one way or the other and prepare to elect the NEXT and this time real/true Conservative Senator from AZ the next time out against the Democrat. Now, with the BarackLash coming, is the only real time the message can be sent and this strategy/move even considered for the long term benefit of the COUNTRY let alone the GOP!!!! His removal will send the HE WASN’T REALLY CONSERVATIVE ENOUGH message to the other RINOs. One sacrafice to beat the others over the head with.

            Again, I don’t expect many to see the merit of the Chess strategy. But it is indeed that, a last-choice strategy move discussion…. We certainly would all prefer to have someone to knock him off in the Primary.

            +I’d been advocating for SOMEONE to step up against McCain for some time: Primary McLame – going at McCain in a Primary, finally and Conservative Candidates (the Diary): AZ section
            +McCain (R-Aricept) “Senator Aricept” (John McCain)
            +toss McCain – time to toss McCain under his “supposed” Straight Talk Bus (further thoughts on the need to Toss McCain NOW!)
            +McCain HC – McCain HC Townhall details, another sell-out pre-declared! (with more comments 306-7+ here and here w/ limited Video)
            +McCain Senate debate on HR3590 (Reid) – HR3590 Amendments fiasco plus McLame with Republican Amendment and here
            +2010 gains opportunities being scuttled? - are some Republicans sand-bagging 2010 gain opportunities? <— McCain, of course, lead amongst them
            ++Any “D” (CINO/PLINO) – How electing ANY Democrat empowers the antithesis of Conservativism, the Ultra-Far-Left Progressive/Socialist/Democrats <– my willing to make this one time exception
            +we need Red-Dogs not RINOs – Red-Dogs, RINOs, CINOs, DINOs, PLINOs, and Blue-Dogs, oh my… The Political Zoo – what/who are they? (What’s a NARAWM?)

            Take care friends…. also, I certainly can expect some that don’t know me (even from just around here) for a time yet to be “suspicious” of the comments…. That’s okay too….. I am just beyond tired of this hind-side-hole being counter to what we are trying to accomplish as CONSERVATIVES within the GOP and putting up with his Progressive BS, and willing to make that CHESS move as last resort strategy for the greater end-game.

          • jfindl2

            Giving a seat to a Democrat who has 6 years to get entrenched is not a winning strategy. You are right to expect that most will not see merit in your proposal b/c people can’t see something that isn’t there in the first place.

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            relax… just a joke ;-) lol.

            though I’m amazed I’m not hearing from you begging Specter to return to being a Republican or never to had left, after all if it is all ever only about having any Republican body lying around, maybe if you’d been here when that was occurring you might have. Again, we certainly are never going to replace all RINOs, but it’s time to snipe off the lead one.

            /snark

            The Democrats are more than willing to sacrafice their Majority to push folks to support the Radical-In-Chief’s and his moronic friends (Reid/Pelosi)… they understand that you can come back, as they have time and time again to regain control by sacraficing some for the Agenda. You refuse to throw one pawn away to anothers WEAK PAWN (which the Democrat will be going against McCain) and that would be easily beaten the next time around. Guess you have no faith in getting back any seat anywhere if/once over to the Dem’s iff you don’t think that particular one (in Red AZ State) can/could be achieved.

            No biggie, difference of Opinion… I don’t want McCain anywhere around when we get control of the Senate back in 2012…. but I understand how some can’t see past next weekend.

          • jfindl2

            What exactly do we gain back voting a Democrat in instead of McCain? You say the Dems are sacrificing Reid for their leftist agenda, so what are we getting back giving away McCain? This isn’t NY-23, there is going to be a primary election, whoever wins the primary should have the vote of Republicans.

            I’m sure we could eventually get back a Senate seat in AZ, but 6 years is a long time and if they don’t immediately get voted out then its another 6 years. I just don’t see what the we gain from voting for a Democrat, which is what you are proposing.

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            of willingness/need to remove him. That’s fine if people are willing to continue to put up with his constant playing footsy with Democrats for his needs to be loved by the Left and the MSM, to allow his Progressive first goals rather than helping Conservative movement first. He as chief RINO causes the most damage to the GOP with every BiPartisan MOVE LEFTWARD (never getting BiPartisanship movement Right-ward). I don’t want him anywhere around the Senate for ANY claim to Leadership as an “elder statesmen of the Party” let along officially be around to take a Leadership role when we take back control of the Senate in 2012 and for him to continue to be around as chief to the other McCainiac followers in the BiPartisanship circus.

            McCain as the chief source of all the pains Republicans get about the “there is no difference in the Parties” meme because he is constantly looking to work with Democrats rather than fellow Repulbicans. All the other RINOs have him as their Rock/Crutch/EXCUSE to lean on everytime they go along with BiPartisan Liberal Incremental-ism moves Leftward — never Rightward!!!

            Again, some Republicans have already given Democrats cover and aid-and-comfort for their re-elections (3 R’s give 3 weak D’s duplicity coverage voting FOR Omnibus spending and some Republicans keep providing Democrats CINO (pavlovian-blue-dog) cover) while McCain is again (providing a Democrat re-election cover by being) all over the news running up to the SOTU about working with BAYH (someone we should be working/targeting to beat, not prop up) on “Conservative” Budget Reforms – so he props up both their “Conservative cred” just before their re-election begs. It is because of McCains first nature to always go to the Democrats that makes him the problem as Lead RINO that he is.

            REPUBLICANS can/could all be sticking together and putting forth the REFORMS and presenting and the Conservative ideals continuing to challenge the FALSEHOOD that we have no ideas, offer no solutions, and on and on. BiPartisaning these efforts just allows the MSM to play the BiPartisan angle and that anything that comes out of the processes as DEMOCRATS with some Republican hangers-on rather than OUR SIDES WORK to begin with. These are the frustrations some of us are no longer willing to tolerate.

            Even while trying to play up his “Conservative” side for his re-election bid, he aides the Democrat side. Looks like he’s more concerned about being adored by the LEFT and the MSM again rather than focusing on what is more helpful to getting 2010 gains (which is why I accuse him of, again being the chief RINO in: 2010 gains opportunities being scuttled? – are some Republicans sand-bagging 2010 gain opportunities?). He could, at least, choose to work with a Democrat not currently being discussed by us Conservatives as needing and potentially finally able to knock off, that he doesn’t choose a Democrat (up later) I think is NOT coincidental!!!!!!

            If these repeated offenses after every re-election (and even blatantly leading up to what should be big gains in ’10 he seems obviously, to me, willing to mitigate) to need to go all out at him, I don’t know what else would convince folks. His patterns are obvious and his loyalties sure seem to be to Progressive Liberal Incremental-ism at every chance he feels he can get away with rather than promote Conservative long-term gains for the Country let alone the GOP.

            Take care.

            PS: BiPartisanship, which I list examples, has been DEMOCRATS JOINING WITH REPUBLICANS AGAINST THE OBAMAGENDA, we don’t need McCain allow the MSM to start to play that narrative back the other way again on Cap-n-Trade “compromise” he’d work for, Amnesty, maybe giving Obama cover on this lame “Freeze” gimmick, HC Reforms (allowing far too many Lefty notions of it in any compromise that might be reached) – we must HOLD OUR GROUND on what real HC Reform (not a takeover) is, etc…..

            The MSM avoids reporting the Bi-Partisan that exists against the ObamAgenda and await the day the narrative shifts back and McCain provides that “Republicans work with Democrats” headline again!—– again, Bi-Partisanship has really been Democrats joining with Republicans (here) and here and (here again) Brian’s Dems join Rep on Ethics issues and How 32 D’s joined R’s on HR2346 How about Dem’s join Republicans to stand for FREE Elections in Iran view too the jackACES Act (Clean Energy) 44 Dems Against while only 8 Reps for another: 12 D’s join R’s (only 7 defections) on Wilson resolution plus so many other times I don’t have articles links to.

          • jfindl2

            for Hayworth in the primary, However, you said that a Democrat would be better than McCain. I just have to disagree, voting for a Democrat will help Obama and the liberals maintain control.

          • http://www.phxgonline.com phxg

            Good or bad and certainly not with my help (or Mbeckers) but in Nov 2010 McCain will indeed win that race.

            Want to know why? It’s simple, he want’s to win and unlike 2008, that will make the difference.

            Couple that drive with a substantial money advantage and a substantially older voting population of AZ that blindly will vote for him no matter what. He’s the Ted Kennedy of AZ and will be removed from office only by death or retirement. And we have seen how often a senator retires.

          • america1st

            Anyone else remember the O’Reilly segment when she was asked, after detailing many of swillary’s snarky ways, if there were *ANY* circumstances under which Ann would vote for the hildabeast? And her answer? “Only if John McCain is the alternative.” Much as I detest the slick & shrew show, I would swallow my gorge & vote for that witch before him. Of course, little barry upset her apple cart and rather than give him the office by voting third party, I voted for Palin in hopes the job would disable McAmnesty in short order.

            In my lifetime, there have been only three Presidential elections (six if voting for the VP candidate 2000, -04, -08 counts) where I actually could vote *for* a candidate rather than choosing the more palatable one. I “hope” this will “change” with the Republican nomination in 2012 !!!

  • skat

    I’ve campaigned for and met both McCain and JD. As an Arizonan, I truly don’t believe JD can win the statewide race for the Senate, but I could be wrong. I will support the Republican candidate, but I believe we need a fresher face than JD if we want to both defeat McCain and keep the seat. I would love to have a more conservative Senator than McCain, but I sure don’t want a Democrat.

    McCain’s faults are very well known. JD has issues also. If these two are the choices, we need to start comparing the positives instead of the negatives. I can’t understand why we destroy our own candidates – there are NO PERFECT CANDIDATES.

    • http://www.linkedin.com/in/williamgainey billg

      assessment. JD is a good conservative candidate compared to McCain. However, surely there is a fast, firm and committed common sense conservative male in AZ who could be vetted and arise from the PHOENIX to carry the banner of Common Sense Conservative Values without the ANGER and HATE of the AZ MSM and the other Progressive Liberals in AZ do not have time or resources to concentrate on? IS there a 9-12 Project or Tea Party Group(s) in AZ who can recruit and vet such a candidate?

      • sharonmcp

        From The Daily Caller

        http://dailycaller.com/2010/01/27/tea-party-groups-split-on-backing-john-mccain%E2%80%99s-republican-primary-opponent/

    • Scope

      please go more into detail why you think Hayworth can’t win. Please talk about your problems with him. To just post opinions, without the details as to why, is not informative. We all really would like to know what Arizonians think, all of them.

      • jfindl2

        I don’t live in Arizona and I don’t really care who wins b/c I think either one would win in November. Sure, McCain would win by a wider margin in the fall, but in this cycle in a state that tilts Republican like Arizona its hard to lose. Hayworth has won in Arizona previously and can raise funds. I have read that JD can sometimes say things that can piss liberals off and maybe drive away moderates, but its not like he has Mark Foley skeletons in his closet.

      • skat

        As I mentioned, I think both McCain/JD have problems as candidates.
        Most Americans are familiar with McCain’s – the most troubling here would be illegal immigration.
        As I read through the comments, no, I don’t think John McCain is hated here in AZ. People are unhappy with many of his positions, but can also see his strong defense, He is at least 22 points ahead of JD. I have seen the suggestion that McCain retire – he won’t do that, it’s just not his personality.
        I think aesthete sums up the situation very well in his post.
        Since you want specifics regarding JD, I’ll give one. JD lost his re-election to the House to an unknown Democrat who wasn’t given a chance. JD’s district is a Republican stronghold. JD was ahead in the polls until right before the election. JD was to have a joint question/answer session with his opponent at a local synagogue.
        For some reason, JD decided not to attend, sending as his replacement a pro-life Christian. Instead of answering only questions, JD’s representative somehow started an anti-abortion rant directed at the Jewish people in attendance , which led to other points of contention, and a huge argument. I could be wrong on this point, but I believe the representative had converted to Christianity from Judism. At any rate, it was an absolute disaster for JD’s campaign. JD’s opponent suddenly took the lead. JD apologized, etc., but the damage was done and he lost his seat.

        I realize that McCain has the Keating scandal, but that is further removed than the Abrahamoff scandal. In my opinion, many Arizonans believed John McCain was innocent.

        I wanted to give you some examples of what I’m talking about, but I still believe we are better served by focusing the positives of both candidates. The Democrats will certainly bring out all the negatives.

        • youngmonte

          I know skat means well, but he is just factually wrong on almost everything he just posted about Hayworth. First, J.D.’s opponent was far from an “unkown Democrat who was not given a chance.” His opponent, Harry Mitchell, had been councilman and mayor of Tempe, the largest city in that congressional district, for 20 years. After that, he was a state senator and the chairman of the Arizona Democratic Party. Ever since Hayworth was redistricted into that seat (because of the nefarious actions of some of Hayworth’s colleagues, which is another story), Democrats had tried to convince Mitchelll to run. He was a well known qualtity in the district – probalby as well known as Hayworth – and anyone familiar with that district knew that one day Hayworth would have a tough reelection. 2006 turned out to be that year.

          Second, it is just not true that Hayworth had a lead in the polls up until election day. Hayworth’s lead evaporated the same time other Republicans around the nation saw their leads evaporate – right after the Mark Foley page scandal. From that point on, Hayworth was consistently behind in the polls.

          Third, the synagogue episode has been the subject of so much disinformation it isn’t funny. The gentleman Hayworth sent to represent him was not a Christian, but a well-respected member of the Jewish community. As was reported in, I believe, The Hill newspaper, the Hayworth surrogate was verbally abused and not allowed to speak and, to make a long story short, lost his cool. But that incident had very little, if anything, to do with Hayworth’s defeat. His defeat, more than anything else, was due to a perceived investigation into his connections with Jack Abramoff combined with a generally bad year for Republicans. Now we know there was/is no investigation and that Hayworth was innocent of anything illegal or unethical.

          Let’s take an inventory of what Hayworth has been through. He is dragged into a scandal involving a guy, Abramoff, that had never even been to his office. As a result, he loses his seat and runs up a legal bill of probably several hundred thousand dollars, only to have the Justice Department confirm – a year after he lost his election, mind you – that they would not be investigating him. Why conservatives would let a bunch of liberal career lawyers at DoJ and Democrats have the last word on that is amazing. Yet some conservatives still claim he was “heavily involved” with Abramoff. Shame on them.

          • Scope

            While you don’t link any information proving/disproving what you are saying, much of what you say, I have read elsewhere. It is particularly noteworth that Skat seems to claim that McCain only/biggest problem with those in Arizona is with his illegal immigration position. That, on it’s face, is an insult to the intelligence of those that live in Arizona. I must assume that Arizonians aren’t knuckle dragging idiots that have missed the long list of woes that McCain has garnered by what is a majority of Republicans across the country. Skat claims that McCain is not hated in Arizonia, yet, there are articles after articles that prove Skat wrong. The only conclusion one can come to is that Skat is a McCain supporter, and, is more than willing to participate in the bashing game that McCain seems to have found against a Republican opponent. Gee, wouldn’t that have been a worthy goal had he shown the first willingness to go after the current communist residing in the WH?

            I had asked the question on here a day or so ago- Do you see a pattern developing? What I meant by my question is, do you see the same souls coming out in defense of what can only be deemed “moderates” as opposed to those that have been tagged as conservatives. The fence sitters, that have no deeply held principles, only care if a body has an R after their name, and name recognition, and a big war chest, and be danged with how they behave in DC. The Democrats don’t have to bother trying to split the Republicans. The ever growing Tea Party activists, and the 40% of the claimed conservatives, will go along way in getting the Republican party back to it’s once conservative roots, one way or another, sooner or later. Those splinters on the fence will eventually push them off onto one side or the other. There is no honor or thirst for Communist Lite.

          • skat

            youngmonte,
            First, yes Mitchell was a Tempe councilman, but very few people gave him a chance to defeat JD. Of course, every re-election battle is going to be tough.

            Second, I didn’t say JD had the lead until election day – JD lost the lead after the synagogue episode and never recovered it.

            Third, I will take your word for the gentleman being Jewish, not Christian. That begs the point of whether JD can ever set the record straight on that whole synagogue fandango. If you are truly fighting the media, you can’t afford this kind of misstep in a re-election battle.

            Fourth, I don’t think JD was involved in anything illegal with Abramoff. However, as you point out, many Arizonans believe he just skated. That may be unfair, but I think it’s going to stick.

            Lastly, I’m sure you’re right that JD’s stance on illegal immigration cost him votes, but it also garnered votes for JD. Arizonans are sick to death of being run over on this issue. I know, I know – what about McCain’s stance on illegal immigration – he sure doesn’t poll well on that. I think that this is truly an area the media has tried to hammer as a losing one for JD, but I disagree. Again, JD’s illegal immigration views have been misrepresented – if he can clearly articulate his true ideas on this, it’s a winner for him, but he has to get his real message out there.

            You sound knowledgeable regarding AZ politics so wouldn’t you agree that the very best scenario would be a fresh, conservative, Republican face? I don’t discount a candidate because they’ve lost a re-election bid, but this Senate seat needs to stay Republican. Matt Salmon, Bryan Colangelo, Alice Cooper? Hey, I want to win.

            Bottom line, I think we are basically on the same page, but John McCain isn’t the devil incarnate. We all need to get behind whoever wins the nomination.

            I’m distressed to see Tommy Thompson considering a run against Feingold, but Thompson is polling above Feingold. Surely, there is someone better than Thompson who could trounce Feingold, but if Thompson is the Republican who can win that state, go with him. I don’t claim to know the available candidates, etc up there. I think many conservatives viewing JD as the McCain trouncer aren’t familiar with AZ politics.

            For the record, I’m a 45 year AZ resident, home-schooler, pro-life Christian, small business owner wacko. I worked on John McCain’s very first campaign, yes, I’m disappointed in his changes.
            My husband and I are personal friends of Trent Franks and helped him with his first state legislature campaign. We have supported Flake, Shadegg, Salmon, Rick Renzi, McCain (reluctantly), JD, Kyl.
            I have a vested interest in a Republican winning.

          • youngmonte

            Thanks for the response. A couple of additional points. I just disagree with you about Mitchell. He was a very known commodity in that district and, as I said in a previous post somewhere, anyone who knows anything about that district knows that it is not a slam dunk for Republicans, even with the 44-R, 29-D, 27-I breakdown. If Republicans don’t win independents, they won’t win that seat. And it is moderate Republican seat – I’ve heard it described as a Connecticut Republican district in Arizona. So Mitchell was always given a chance. And again, the synagogue incident happened well after Hayworth’s poll numbers began to turn downward. The downturn happened right about the tiime of the Foley scandal in late September, when Americans who were on the fence decided they’d had enough of Republicans.

            Second, I never meant to say that illegal immigration cost Hayworth votes. I think you are referring to my comment that his stand against the Bush/McCain plan cost him, and it did – in contributions and support from the Chamber and other businesss types in AZ. It was clearly a net plus for him with voters. But in DC and with the Republican establishment, it hurt him.

            It is pretty simple. Hayworth is a reliable conservative. John McCain is not. Politics is not, as some here seem to argue, a zero-sum game where by giving to one candiate we take from others. It doesn’t work that way, as Barack Obama and the Dems amply demonstrated in ’08. Either we can unite around Hayworth or, as Faughnan says, we can sit around and wait until McCain pulls the football away.

          • skat

            Hey youngmonte,
            I would agree that the district can go either way, but really it was JD’s to lose and he did.
            Going back to the synagogue mess, I’m very politically active. We have been very big financial contributors to JD in the past – not to McCain.If I have some of the details wrong, what do you think the general public believes?
            JD’s immigration views have been distorted.
            What I am really, really against are the people who are advocating voting Dem or not voting if McCain wins the primary. I don’t think either of us believe that to be in the best interest of Arizona or the country.

          • skat

            youngmonte,
            I’m not sure that in this economic climate, giving to an Arizona candidate doesn’t mean the contributor can’t give money to a Florida or CA candidate. For many years, we have been big contributors to conservatives nationwide. Regrettably, any candidate will be lucky to get $20 from us this time.
            I think it’s great that Faughnan is supporting JD, however, people need to make an informed decision – especially if they are deciding which candidate they can financially support.
            People who support JD’s bid – go for it! Get him elected! In my opinion, Faughnan didn’t give people – he probably didn’t know – the facts about issues JD is going to have to overcome.
            Whatever the primary outcome, I’m supporting the Republican.

  • azred

    That is the talking point that the McCain camp is preaching in AZ. They are contrasting McCain’s no earmark position vs. JD’s alledged penchant for earmarks.
    I do not have any actual details to refute or support the accusation, just that is the early scuttle. In addition, the McCain camp is trying to make a deal out of JD’s radio program in which he was often critical of McCain. The allegation is JD was running the campaign on the air.

    I don’t know the Hayworth can beat McCain. Name recognition of a presidential candidate may be very difficult to overcome.

    • AceInTX

      the McCain camp is trying to make a deal out of JD?s radio program in which he was often critical of McCain. The allegation is JD was running the campaign on the air.

      Censorship is the first resort of despots and McCain hs proven with McCain Fiengold that he likes censorship. Taking JD to court and making this accusation is just one more case of McCain trying to silence dissenting voices.

      If McCain doesn’t like what JD says on the Radio…the let McCain get a radio show if he can get someone to listen to him…but this crap of saying it’s ok to eliminate a radio program that is criticizing a Senator because the host might run against that Senator at some future date is offensive and dangerous!!!!!

      • ashen

        The complaint was filed by Grant Woods, McCain ally apparently.

        http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/01/27/20100127hayworth0127.html

        • Scope

          most especially if they are not Obama. He is following his Progressive friends playbook. He is a pathetic old fool. Justice for America is in getting him out of the Senate, even if Mickey Mouse replaces him.

          • Scope

            but, I love that he is proving McCain to be a progressive, following in his favorite president’s footsteps, Teddy Roosevelt. There really is a groundswell growing against McCain.

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            as I’ve outlined elsewhere in this thread, and why I’m willing to go to such lengths to see him REMOVED (up thread). That Presidential Campaign, which can barely be called such, was the last straw for far so many of us. Time to show McCain some ILL-TEMPER (that he has shown other Republicans) returned his way. There is no excuse for us to not try. Why is Rubio challenging the easy/early Crist (probable shoe-in) candidate? I know, not quite apples to apples, but the point remains – we PREFER/want the most Conservative Candidate any given Election voting block (whether it be a city, county, state, congressional District, statewide US Senate race, etc…) will bear!!! What of Toomey challenging [disre]Specter…. look how that whole dynamic has now changed!!!! Tea Party thirst for REAL CONSERVATIVES means this may be the ONE TIME CHANCE (as was the MASS Deady Kennedy seat – again, not entirely apples to apples)…..

          • AceInTX
          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            I’m not just airing “frustration” anymore…. I am beyond pissed and 100% mean everything I’m saying and will NOT backtrack on regarding McCain… We have all stretched our personal Political Capital and Credibility for (too many times defending) that hind-side-hole (because of the “worse” choice of the other side)…. ENOUGH!!!! HE MUST GO!!!

            If push comes to shove, this will be one of those “exceptions” I’m willing to make and support any potential Independent Candidate out-right. This is the ultimate test case for the TEApeaters movements to come from across the country and make the point — McCain, you have been a big reason we are where we are today and we are done with you!

            God Bless friend!

  • Chief1942

    It appears that the primary in Arizona will reflect our similar choices in the last federal election, ie. the lesser of two evils. After his effort, along with Ted Kennedy, to side with the 12+million illegals in this nation and their inablers and supporters, I would vote for Atilla the Hun over John McCain. I could forgive him some of his “maverickness” but when it comes to trashing this nation’s sovereigntyto pander to “illegals”, then he loses me big time.
    As for Hayworth, I do admire his frankness and “call it like I see it” approach. Currently, like millions of others, I have an inherent distrust of ANY politician to actually represent traditionalist mainstreet America. One simply does not elevate themselves to the Federal political sewer without first selling their souls to some special interest group in deference to the interests of this nation as a whole.
    I will stay observant and see if there truly is any chance of….”to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. “

  • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

    further to the RIGHT than he and unwilling to “Moderate” and join in on his Progressive Mr. Bi-Partisanship routine that always takes the country further LEFT. What has he EVER actually accomplished that moved the country RIGHT?

    Toss McCain NOW, to send his McCainiac allies in the Senate a REAL messagetime to toss McCain under his “supposed” Straight Talk Bus (further thoughts on the need to Toss McCain NOW!)

    • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

      always

  • clement

    How can you criticize Hayworth for getting over 2 grand from Abramoff and then overlook that McCain got over ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars.

    • Scope

      that McCain got more campaign money from a Abramhoff through back room kinds of deals than Hayworth. It doesn’t surprise me that McCain would try to paint Hayworth as the bad guy, when he actually was worse. He’s trying to put Hayworth on the defensive.

  • http://www.phxgonline.com phxg

    and that was 2008. I still feel dirty. Thanlfully I can rectify that.

    • AceInTX
  • aesthete

    because here in AZ, I can tell you that there are very few voters, primary or otherwise, who have the same view of him (largely as a result of his being an arrogant blowhard). But the real question is not, is JD more conservative than McCain (he is, but that’s not a hard bar to trip over). Rather, it is, can he win over the voters, primary or otherwise? My answer to that question is no, he cannot. The simple reason for this is that the most conservative region of AZ, and the area where turnout would have to be high for a conservative to win against McCain, is Phoenix, which also happens to be JD’s home district (Maricopa). JD as a sportscaster, a politician, and a talk show host has more than made an impression there, and it hasn’t been a good one. Depressed turnout will be the likely result of this, and the other two major regions of AZ, Tucson and Flagstaff, either don’t know him (Flagstaff, pretty much) or REALLY don’t like him (Tucson). Even on the off chance that JD’s winning personality would win over Flagstaff (doubtful, considering that he doesn’t have a red cent and isn’t a good candidate), McCain’s lock on both Phoenix and Tucson insure that he’ll win. No amount of “but Scott Brown won”s, conservative revolutions, or anything else will change that.

    Oh yeah, if things start to get bad, you can count on Fred Thompson, Sarah Palin, and Scott Brown to really get behind McCain, just so you guys don’t get your hopes up on some conservative luminary showing people in AZ the light. I don’t like them facts, and I’ll vote for (and maybe support) McCain, but outsiders should save their money and donate to more attractive and competitive candidates.

    • skat

      I hate to say it, but aesthete has it right.

      • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

        anyday….. So it is good that he is AT LEAST going to try and go at McLame. There is plenty to expose about McCain and the Ad campaign should NOT hold back at all!!! See “McLame’s infamous temper” comment above. McCain ran such a nice polite campaign against his PROGRESSIVE cohort Obama, but won’t be so polite in going against any Republican – which in and of itself is another one of those telling things – and with TEApeaters help maybe can convince it is time to NOT allow McCain to be sent back to DC to sell us all out again. DID THE PEOPLE OF AZ LEARN NOTHING LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION?!?!?!

        • AceInTX

          what does THAT say about the Maverick?!

          • mbecker908

            I’m betting McCain spends at least a million on ads reminding people just how big a jerk JD is – and that would be a REALLY BIG jerk – before JD puts together enough money to pay his lawyers from 2006.

            Every dollar given to JD Hayworth is a dollar that won’t help elect a conservative somewhere.

          • AceInTX

            I’m just pointing out…had he gone after Obama in 2008 half as hard as he’s gone after JD who is an undeclared candidate…(who might not have run had McCain left him alone btw)….then he might have won and we wouldn’t be where we are right now!

          • mbecker908

            about the 08 race that I won’t agree with. McCain rolled over and handed the WH to Obama. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the ’10 AZ Senate race.

            I can guarantee you I like this less than you do. But it is what it is, get over it. Let’s focus on winning where we can win and making the biggest possible difference we can.

          • Scope

            against those that are seen as conservative? I do.

          • skat

            Scope,
            Arizona does have liberals and we are getting more here from other states. We have lots of great conservatives serving – Trent Franks, John Shadegg, Jeff Flake, Jon Kyl.
            JD has a lot of baggage here.
            My personal opinion, put money against Bayh in Indiania, Boxer in CA. If JD wins the primary, he’s going to need lots of money then. Bu

            If JD wins I’ll sure be out working for him. I just wish we would get another choice here.

    • JadedByPolitics

      I am just saying they may dislike JD but my understanding is they HATE McCain and with the mood of the rest of the country against the incumbent I would think with the TEA Party Movement etc that ANYONE who is NOT an incumbent has an immediate + number….wishful thinking I know but it certainly seems to be the mood EVERY WHERE else!

      • jfindl2

        I always thought McCain had fairly high approval ratings in his homestate? Maybe I’m mistaken or there is a new poll that has been out showing otherwise.

        • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

          You have to START to make the claims if you want to shift the Polls. I don’t care where the Polls sit at this point, it is a matter of principle that we cannot continue to CLAIM the Republican Party is not just Democrat Lite if we do NOT, at least, attempt to get more RELIABLY Conservative folks from/in RED States. Snowe, Collins, are another story considering the State. It is HIGH TIME the LEAD RINO be challenged.

          • skat

            JLenardDetroit,
            JD isn’t Brown!!! Sometimes polls actually matter. We need a better candidate than JD to beat John McCain. That is a fact. I think the conservative candidates that could really create some excitement here in Arizona are going to wait this election out.

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            and that was the only point of any reference to any other race one can/may point to where everyone seems convinced there is no chance up front – no excuse not to try. Nothing ventured, nothing certainly is ever gained. And McCain as the chief source of all the pains Republicans get about the “there is no difference in the Parties” meme because he is constantly looking to work with Democrats rather than fellow Repulbicans. All the other RINOs have him as their Rock/Crutch/EXCUSE to lean on everytime they go along with BiPartisan Liberal Incremental-ism moves Leftward — never Rightward!!!

            Again, some Republicans have already given Democrats cover and aid-and-comfort for their re-elections (3 R’s give 3 weak D’s duplicity coverage voting FOR Omnibus spending and some Republicans keep providing Democrats CINO (pavlovian-blue-dog) cover) while McCain is again all over the news running up to the SOTU about working with BAYH (someone we should be working/targeting to beat, not prop up) on “Conservative” Budget Reforms – so he props up both their “Conservative cred” just before their re-election begs. It is because of McCains first nature to always go to the Democrats that makes him the problem as Lead RINO that he is.

            REPUBLICANS can/could all be sticking together and putting forth the REFORMS and presenting and the Conservative ideals continuing to challenge the FALSEHOOD that we have no ideas, offer no solutions, and on and on. BiPartisaning these efforts just allows the MSM to play the BiPartisan angle and that anything that comes out of the processes as DEMOCRATS with some Republican hangers-on rather than OUR SIDES WORK to begin with. These are the frustrations some of us are no longer willing to tolerate.

            Even while trying to play up his “Conservative” side for his re-election bid, he aides the Democrat side. Looks like he’s more concerned about being adored by the LEFT and the MSM again rather than focusing on what is more helpful to getting 2010 gains (which is why I accuse him of, again being the chief RINO in: 2010 gains opportunities being scuttled? – are some Republicans sand-bagging 2010 gain opportunities?). He could, at least, choose to work with a Democrat not currently being discussed by us Conservatives as needing and potentially finally able to knock off, that he doesn’t choose a Democrat (up later) I think is NOT coincidental!!!!!!

            If these repeated offenses after every re-election (and even blatantly leading up to what should be big gains in ’10 he seems obviously, to me, willing to mitigate) to need to go all out at him, I don’t know what else would convince folks. His patterns are obvious and his loyalties sure seem to be to Progressive Liberal Incremental-ism at every chance he feels he can get away with rather than promote Conservative long-term gains for the Country let alone the GOP.

          • aesthete

            He’s Pee-Wee Herman. Outsiders are trying to make JD a good candidate, but he’s really not.

      • mbecker908

        Not on your life. McCain will crush JD like a bug. Every dollar spent on this race is a dollar diverted from one of three House races we CAN win and win with solid conservatives.

        JD is a prissy whining loudmouth. Voters in Arizona are absolutely sick of him and he’s already peaked at -2 from McCain. A new poll has him under 30 and he hasn’t even reminded everyone why he got booted out of the the House by Mitchell. Mitchell is beatable this year, but if JD ran against him Mitchell would win by twenty points.

      • aesthete

        But tbh, AZ really hasn’t. It’s somewhat similar to the Kennedy situation: he’s an institution, not a candidate. Trust me, if McCain had faltering approval numbers, a credible candidate, like Jeff Flake, would be running against him. That we have Keith Olbermann’s conservative sister and some nobodies from the Minutemen running for that seat simply confirms to me that it’s a lost cause to invest.

    • aesthete

      I’ll support JD.

    • kchand

      I’ve lived in this district for decades, AZ for over 40 years, and have talked with JD many times when he was my Representative and after. My points:

      1. I’m not sure he can win because he is a strong personality that does not work well with everyone. He will also lag behind in fund raising.

      2. However, McCain has been slamming JD in rather weird ads relentlessly … even before he announced. That will turn people off on McCain.

      3. I trust JD more and believe he will be a more consistent conservative and I will vote for him.

      4. McCain will raise a ton of $$$ … a lot from out of state.

      5. I will vote for whoever wins the primary, in the general. Only a fool would vote for a Democrat over either of these two. We supposedly have a conservative blue-dog that replaced JD in my CD; instead we have a Pelosi lap-dog.

      6. I REALLY wish John Shadegg was running for Senate.

      • aesthete

        especially #6.

      • http://thefilthybeast.com KathW

        My parents constantly tell me about your #2. They would vote for JD anyway, but the McCain ads are driving them crazy. The inundation this early in the year strikes them as desperate and they are ready to throw the radio each time they hear an ad come on. He must be annoying other conservatives as well, even ones who are inclined to support him.

  • SteveLA

    Really…this is what Republicans want to talk about? This is what JD “Birther” Hayworth is worried about.

    Sorry that it’s a video from that lousy network and the guy with Thrills up his leg, but here goes.

    Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

    • Aaron Gardner

      Are you saying that you agree with Tingles? Are you really the type of person we want to be a Republican?

      See how that works?

      Also, weren’t you one of the people crying about outsiders getting into the CA Senate race? Does that rule only apply when it’s your state?

      And what about Reagan’s 11th commandment? Why are you speaking badly of another republican?

      Mind you, these are all arguments you have used when some moderate is getting flogged for being a moderate,

      • Richard Mullins

        Yeah, Hayworth doesn’t seem to be a birther in that segment. He just seem to be one that want a bit proof coming from Obama instead Gov. Lingle.

        • Aaron Gardner

          If that’s all it takes to become a “birther” then I suppose I am a “birther”.

          • Jack_Savage

            If we advocate showing some sort of ID in order to vote, surely someone who actually runs for office should prove he / she is eligible. To argue for stricter standards for voters than for candidates doesn’t make any sense.

          • AceInTX
      • SteveLA

        Aaron,

        No I don’t agree with Tingles, but at the same time, I think this country faces serious issues and serious people should be representing this party. JD Hayworth by playing in the MSM street with the Birther crud is doing no one on the Right side of the ditch any good.

        Can I expect your admonition that only Arizona residents need comment on JD, or just those that scream about RINOS in a way that you agree with by the way?

        Reagan’s11′ does not apply to birthers in my book and JD in his own words pretty well shows his support of that stupidity.

        • Aaron Gardner

          In my book Reagan’s 11th doesn’t extend to Progressives like McCain and Fiorina. And I suppose by extension you.

          The point, don’t use the arguments you do and then turn around and act like those you complain about.

          • SteveLA

            But I’m a RINO, and will vote for a RINO who might actually stand a chance of getting elected in a Blue state like CA, Mass and to some extent AZ. I’m silly that way, have been sense the early 70′s when I got out of South and first registered as a Republican. Why I even voted for Ford, and Reagan, twice, and Bush 1 twice and mean Bob Dole and yes JohnnyMac the last time.

            So silly me, can dish but can’t take it…but I do like serious folks who actually have a clue and birthers and JD Hayworth ain’t someone that is appealing to anyone paying attention.

          • Aaron Gardner

            I assume it is because you can’t. A serious person would.

          • SteveLA

            Did you actually bother to watch the video?

            The right answer instead of the crap coming out of JD’s mouth would have been, “Tingle, Obama is the President, I disagree with many of his policies, I am running to over turn those polices, this other stuff is noise distracting from discussing the wrong direction Obama is taking this country”.

            Serious people understand that point. I can only assume that you’re not a serious person, or one fixated on nonsense, because RINO, True Conservative and just about zero serious people in politics on this side of the ditch are interested in Obama’s birth certificate, there’s real issues to discuss which are serious issues.

            Knock yourself out if you want to fixate on nonsense, Obama is the President, I disagree with most of what he is doing to this country and the issue of his birth certificate is nonsense to me.

          • Aaron Gardner

            I watched as each time JD began to answer the question Tingles interrupted him.

            The fact that you take seriously Tingles attempt to trap JD is what is funny.

            You can continue your ad hominems at your pleasure, it just assures me of my conservative creds.

            Bye now.

          • joayn

            and it looks like it’s working on you two.

            Has anybody else noticed how fast the MSM have started using the DSCC’s points?

            http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0110/32003.html

          • SteveLA

            joayn

            I used to catch JD on Hannity and other FOX shows. He was a bombastic A hole then, and he hasn’t mellowed a bit.

            Illegal immigration was JD’s usual bone, and he offered no solutions, just noise and FUD to appeal to the cheap seats.

          • Aaron Gardner

            How about you STFU, you elistist moderate peice of crap.

            How you like those ad hominems hypocrite.

          • aesthete

            I get what you’re going for and I’ll defend most people who hold “extremist” views on illegal immigration, but JD is a demagogue on the issue, and doesn’t deserve your defense.

            As a good example of the right’s thoughts on illegal immigration, Fred Thompson had the right idea about immigration, and approached it in a rational and cogent manner. OTOH, JD (and a large segment of the anti-immigration crowd in AZ) plays to the basest instincts of the American voter (“Do you want little Mindy to get killed by a Mexican?” kind of stuff). He doesn’t differentiate between legal and illegal immigration, and doesn’t have any credible solutions as to what to do with illegals already in the US.

            “Extremist” anti-illegal immigration proponents aren’t all the same, unfortunately. Unlike some, I don’t think that he’s a racist, but his posturing on illegal immigration is all sorts of crazy and fear-mongering, and though the phrasing could have been better, Steve is correct in his depiction of JD’s views. If I have time later, I’ll find a clip to show you what I mean.

          • Aaron Gardner

            I grew up in AZ, my mother still lives there. She live in Patagonia, which is right on the southern border. She is a former nurse who runs a clinic in Nogales. She has 5-6 gunshot wounds a day walk through her door. The drug runners have started shooting at random civilians because to make a statement to the Boarder Patrol and Police.

            This is a real problem, not just rhetoric. And personally I am sick of moderates who act like they have card blanche to talk crap about conservatives while hiding behind specious arguments about Reagan’s 11th and out of state influence WRT their moderate pick.

            In short, SteveLA is a frakking hypocrite hack who can’t take what he dishes out. And I won’t stake my mother’s life on his idiocy.

          • aesthete

            illegal immigrant. Most illegals aren’t looking to kill people, and the fact of the matter is, there are several legal residents and citizens of Mexican descent (especially juveniles) who are a) more than happy to give drug runners a hand, and b) not going to go away even if we enact an optimal solution to illegal immigration. There is a problem, but the way that JD addresses it is fraudulent and hyperbolic, and mirrors arguments made by proponents of HCR. Again, I don’t have a problem defending rational statements made by border security folks, and do so on a regular basis. Specious argumentation, group identity politics, and impractical solutions to the problem aren’t what I would consider rational, and to that end, I am against both the McCains, who would argue that the only Mexicans in America are the hard-working variety, and the JDs, who would have us believe that behind every doe-eyed illegal lies a bloodthirsty killer.

            There are plenty of reasons to be for border security; JD consistently picks the worst ones, and in doing so, paints the movement in a bad light. He’s a classless version of Hannity on the issue, and brings nothing to the table (unless you count vitriol and populism).

            PS: This isn’t so much about Steve as it is about JD and his craptastic demagoguery on the issue, sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

          • Aaron Gardner

            As noted below by Brian he does differentiate between illegals and legals. I wish our side would quit repeating the lies that the MSM puts out there against conservatives. Which is the same problem that I have with SteveLA’s idiotic ad hominems on Hayworth.

          • aesthete

            and I don’t think that I should have to to get the gist of what he’s saying on immigration. In all honesty, and I don’t say this as an insult or to score points, I don’t have the time or impetus to read every book that a politico writes about himself, nor do I feel the need to reserve judgement on said politico before gathering every scrap of evidence potentially out there. (Or should you be required to read Chuckie Schumer’s book before criticizing him?) I had already seen JD in appearances on Fox (not a hostile venue) and other places, in the media, and that I haven’t heard of an instance where JD makes a distinction is an indictment on him, not on me and AZ voters who have this perception (which would be almost all of them). Now that I know, I won’t accuse JD of not having made this distinction, but I don’t feel the need to apologize for a good-faith statement that corresponded to the copious amount of statements that I’d heard JD make, which didn’t seem to distinguish between the two.

            That said, I am glad that Brain corrected me on that; it makes me feel (a little) better about voting for him in the primary :)

          • Aaron Gardner

            And regardless of what you or me or anyone else sees on T.V. it is our responsibility as voters to seek out this information, not just take what we are fed.

            Now, let me be clear [invoking the One] I don’t group you and Steve together. He was being a complete tool tarring Hayworth as a birther. You just argued while not having all the facts, that happens to all of us.

          • aesthete

            I’ll have to agree to disagree wrt absolute knowledge about a candidate; I think we should be informed to the best of our ability, but I see no reason to take information gathering to an extreme, especially as it pertains to a has-been candidate who, in all likelihood, has seen the end of his political aspirations, at least in elected office. After all, that’s one of the reasons why we have sites like RS; to inform and motivate.

            Also, you probably shouldn’t invoke the One; it doesn’t befit your status as a front-pager :)

          • Aaron Gardner

            dang, now I invoked McCain….on that note I am going to bed. ;)

          • aesthete

          • Brian Faughnan

            I don’t have JD’s book on immigration around, but he specifically distinguished between legal and illegal immigration. He agreed that legal immigration provides benefits to this country; it is illegal immigration he wants to see stopped.

          • Aaron Gardner
          • aesthete

            I’ll take your word for it.

          • youngmonte

            SteveLA, that really is the silliest thing maybe ever posted at RedState. Hayworth wrote a book on illegal immigration and if you read you will find there is a lengthy section on what to do about illegal immigration, i.e. solutions. He also has a chapter that eviserates the McCain guest worker plan. It is devastating and alone worth the price of the book.

            Additionally, Hayworth (with Tom Tancredo) is responsible for the Enforcement First movement that became the de facto position of Bush and McCain when their amnesty plan went down in flames.

            And I have to admit, I am shocked at how many “consrevatives” criticize Hayworth’s media appearances when back in DC he was considered the best communicator on the Hill, bar none. Why do you think the liberals hated him so much? Because he’d slice and dice them every night on cable. Bombastic? Sure, sometimes. But he was always well prepared and on message. Anyone who remembers when he took down Robert Wexler over Enron will know what I mean.

          • SteveLA

            Aaron

            Well you should probably go back and watch it again with the volume turned up a bit. You might actually understand what was going on if you try to pay attention.

            Tingles was asking JD to refute a letter that JD had previously written about the topic of Obama’s birth certificate. JD refused to back off this nonsense and Tingles called him on it…cornered JD in effect.

            ad-homonym no facts….JD is a fool and worse.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Now you are moving the goal post, like a good little moderate who want to talk crap but can’t take it.

          • SteveLA

            Aaron

            You should start a new gig, maybe writing fiction or something with

            “The fact that you take seriously Tingles attempt to trap JD is what is funny.”

            JD “Birther” Haywood is tripped up by his own moon bat statements he’s made in the past, in writing even, Tingles calls him on it and you protest? OK…so you think this birth certificate issue is important stuff along with JD thinking it’s important, it’s the sort of stuff that people who vote in elections care about, it will attract I’s and us RINO’s to your cause…huge issue in Mass, in CA, in VA, in NJ and in maybe AZ…about sum it up?

            OK Fine..enjoy the fish.

          • Aaron Gardner

            All you can do is scream birther. You are the one who is acting like a complete frakking hack.

          • SteveLA

            Aaron

            Are you sure you have the goal posts correctly set in your quest for the truthieness of JD “Birther” Hayworth’s moon bat letter which Tingles asked about. Don’t let facts get in your way.

            Source JD “Birther” Hayworth’s own blog.

            Understandably, you will first take time to honor the memory of your beloved grandmother at a Memorial Service in Hawaii. She passed on just as you were on the cusp of your historic victory. As you return to the Aloha State, please ask Gov. Linda Lingle to release your birth certificate. I don?t suggest this to be provocative; I recommend this as a productive step. In so doing, you could put to rest any whispers or suspicions about your constitutional fitness for office. Please do this?the sooner, the better.

          • Aaron Gardner

            You are a moderate hack.

            DONE.WITH.YOU.HYPOCRITE.

          • AceInTX
          • youngmonte

            I, for one, think that talk about Obama’s birth certificate is a colossal waste of time and it does conservatives no good. Obama was born in Hawaii. End of story. That said, I ask which is more bizarre – believing that Obama might not have been born in the US or, like John McCain, believing that giving illegal aliens amnesty will be good for our economy and our country? Or that spending $850 to bail out the banks will create jobs? Or that restrciting free speech is “reform?” Or that cap and trade is good economics? Or that..you get the idea. I may not agree with the birthers, but they are a huge step up from the global warming alarmist, bailout enacting, amnesty lovin’ crowd McCain runs with.

          • Third Street

            Yes, talk about Obama’s birth certificate is a colossal waste of time, in the sense that it is a political non-starter. The Left long ago dubbed anybody with any questions about the matter “birthers”, it stuck, and it’s now an issue that will immediately get you laughed out of the room in most circles. It’s dead, Jim.

            No, Hayworth did not say anything I disagree with, because the stone-cold fact of the matter, without drawing any conclusions from it, is that nobody has ever seen Barack Obama’s birth certificate. See, not very many people seal their own birth certificates, and fewer still wage million-dollar legal fights to keep them that way. If simply wondering what the hell that’s all about — especially in light of the Constitutional crisis that would erupt if, just if, the “birthers”‘ suspicions turned out to be correct — makes one a “birther”, then I guess you’ll have to count me as a birther too.

            So, I agree that politically this subject earns you a one-way ticket to Crazytown — it’s so toxic that even conservatives throw around the term “birthers” the way Leftists use “teabaggers”. Barack Obama was born in Hawaii because he says he was; it isn’t totally clear to me why we’ll take his word on this and nothing else, especially when his own family members can’t agree on which Honolulu hospital he was born in, but oh well. The situation is as it is. Still, I can’t help muttering the same things Hayworth did in that clip every time I’m in line at the DMV.

          • america1st

            Regardless of where little barry was born, regardless of whether the circumstances of that birth conveyed US citizenship, it is a horribly dangerous precedent **NOT** to require proof of said citizenship for the most important job in the nation. Only legal citizens should be able to vote or hold office, and for some of those offices – such as President / VP, the holder legally and logically should be native born.

            The babbling teleprompter & fellow travelers have spent enormous sums to hide the history & provenance of the office holder. The only explanation for this determination which I can begin to postulate, absent a failure to qualify as a natural-born citizen, is something so politically / morally devastating it would have torpedoed the candidacy. Perhaps the father was unknown, or especially unsavory? I don’t know, and I do not assert b.o. is not American nor had a father who was Che’s first cousin, etc. I do know the American people *ARE* owed the proof at least this one requirement was met.

            Not that the Constitution is anything much more than an option these days . . . .

          • aesthete

            Both the Honolulu Advertiser and the Star Bulletin reported Obama’s birth way back in Aug. 4, 1961. Unless the Democrats have figured out a way to travel back in time (which is doubtful, given the low productivity rates of unionized henchmen and mad scientists), that’s pretty ironclad proof that Obama was, indeed, born on US soil.

            When confronted with this evidence on RS, birthers continued to insist that there was a conspiracy, and stated that we were all tools for not seeing it and subsequently focusing our efforts on getting Obama impeached, and somehow, getting McCain/Palin instated as POTUS and VP. Now, I don’t care what lurid images people fondle themselves to as they go to their happy place, but believing that that chain of events would actually happen is incredibly unserious, and ranks these people somewhere below the “Bush stole the election” folks, and somewhere above the Paulistas (birthers might be crazy, but at least they’re not openly racist).

          • Aaron Gardner

            Which is what SteveLA is trying to do. Because he is a no talent hack.

          • gekster

            been there.
            made a hapa$$ comment.
            got bit by it.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Tarring Hayworth as a birther is idiotic. What happens if by chance he is the GOP nominee for the AZ Senate seat. Idiots like SteveLA will have made the false case for the MSM.

            Stupid Party.

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            I thought “in-artful” comments were supposed to just be over looked though ;-) lol.

            Whether it is POSSIBLE that someone is born elsewhere, travels almost immediately thereafter back to the US, get a Certificate, is one thing over if that is what actually happened. I DON’T KNOW, AND NOT GONNA BOTHER WITH THE ARGUMENT beyond whether it is possible. Why would someone? For the benefits of being a US citizen, of course, not some big supposed conspiracy that “this particular person” might be able to become President at some point.

            I think the main issue is the College records, and it is because some Affirmative Action issues may have been used to benefit him and they don’t want that exposed. Fairly mild, but IMO some hanky-panky in order to get some kind of free or reduced ride, none-the-less….. Is that worth going on and on about…. NOPE, not IMO….. We have real issues of his RADICALNESS we can stick with that are open/obvious FACTS without going to those “potential” and/or “possible” deep-ends.

          • aesthete

            Given his past, it wouldn’t particularly surprise me if JD was a birther for the attention: he’s always been eager to take the most controversial position possible, if it meant he could have his mug look back at him from the T and V.

            I’ll look for a video to post that will illustrate that point.

          • Third Street

            And like I said, I’m not drawing any conclusions from the fact Obama had his birth records sealed. (Or his college records, for that matter.) I’d just like to know why he did, because when a Presidential candidate has his BC sealed at the beginning of his campaign, and wages an ongoing legal fight to be sure it stays sealed, it’s hard to come to any answer other than that he’s trying to hide something. Not a good way to kick off The Most Transparent Administration Ever, and not something that a candidate would do without knowing how it would look.

            And as america1st points out, it sets a terrible precedent. What does the constitutional requirement that the President must be a natural-born citizen mean, now that Barack Obama has established for future candidates that they don’t have to positively demonstrate that they meet it? I have the newspaper clipping announcing my own birth, after all, but that by itself won’t help me to get a driver’s license, let alone get elected to the highest office in the land.

          • aesthete

            and it works well as an attack on the transparency of Obama’s administration.

            But birthers seem to think that single-minded pursuit of the issue will put McCain/Palin in the WH. That’s just silly.

          • Aaron Gardner

            Which is why it takes a no talent moderate hack like SteveLA to say that Hayworth is a “birther”.

          • aesthete

            This statement is fairly innocuous, all things considered.

          • AceInTX

            The Democrats make an issue Verboten and ostracize anyone who even thinks there is a minor point to the issue and make them a resident of crazy town…

            But it doesn’t end there…people like Steve and McCain take the same line as the Democrats and worry more about what the Democrats think and go off on their own for even giving the issue even minimal consideration.

            I president should have to prove citizenship and I don’t see what’s wrong with saying so…but in Steve, and McCain’s world…the Democrats might make fun of us for sying so…so the MUST hammer anyone who says so at any cost.

            I’ll state for the record…I’ve taken the State of Hawaii’s explanation about the Birth Certificate..but I can’t help but wonder why they have spent so much time sealing the documents….and I don’t think simply asking the question should condemn anyone to the outer regions of hell

      • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

        time to affix that label to him!!!!

        Aaron, as you know I often do try to remind folks of the Eleventh Commandment…. but as you also will probably recall, I am always more than honest/open about the Fact that I WILL, and do in this case, MAKE OCCASIONAL EXCEPTIONS from the general rules/conditions (depending on specific situations) I would (and ask others to) otherwise operate by!

        McCain is worthy of such EXCEPTION…. No holds should be barred against him! If he is the General Election AZ Senate Candidate, I am very well considering sending funds to his Democrat opponent with same Ad campaign suggestions to go at McCain with as I’ve otherwise outlined herein this Diary/Thread.

      • audax

        …to discredit Hayworth among the people who could care less what the Constitution says about this issue, which includes all of the MSM. Tingle Leg brought this issue up FIRST! J.D. was responding ONLY and a good response it was, watch it again SteveLA…what would you have said different IN RESPONSE TO Tingle Legs question out of the blue, with the red light on in front of YOU? This is the Bu!!cr@p Conservatives-noun have to put up with from pinkos and RINOS….go ahead…what would you have said?

      • AceInTX
    • kuksool

      Case in point. Just let’s try to put the shoe on the other foot.

      How would we react if the Birthers claimed that Gov. Bobby Jindal is a secret Moooslim, questioned his patriotism because he is the son of immigrants, and demanded to see his birth certificate?

      Another point. Would we tolerate Fundamentalist Christians demanding Mitt Romney prove he is a Christian.

      Hannity, Beck, and other conservative commentors are right to flee away from Birtherism, It makes the conservative movement look like another variety of 9-11 Truthers.

    • kuksool

      Case in point. Just let’s try to put the shoe on the other foot.

      How would we react if the Birthers claimed that Gov. Bobby Jindal is a secret Moooslim, questioned his patriotism because he is the son of immigrants, and demanded to see his birth certificate?

      Another point. Would we tolerate Fundamentalist Christians demanding Mitt Romney prove he is a Christian.

      Hannity, Beck, and other conservative commentors are right to flee away from Birtherism, It makes the conservative movement look like another variety of 9-11 Truthers.

  • Chief1942

    If the GOP hasn’t learned anything from the last election, then McCain will in fact win re-election and with that the GOP continues to bleed base supporters. If the GOP has ANY chance of recovering the millions they lost, who are now in the “unaffiliated” or “independent” ranks, they will most definately have to rid themselves of the “old guard” of which McCain is the poster boy. Just how long do you suppose it will take him to come out in favor of gay marriage as his wife and daughter have done? Afterall, he has shown he has no principles he will not compromise for political expediency. And on the gay marriage issue he can claim he did it so he wouldn’t have to sleep on the couch.

    • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

      and that message cannot be disputed, effectively anyway, if McCainiacs (especially the chief McCainiac from a RedState), isn’t (at least) challenged heartily. The other RINOs often only follow where the McCainiac leads them, the lead dog must be taken out!

      • mbecker908

        Support three solid conservative candidates for House seats in AZ who will replace three proto-Marxists.

        • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

          While I fully expect you’re right in your analysis, IF NOT NOW (considering sentiments across the country) it may never happen…. AND IT IS THEN NO EXCUSE TO NOT TRY!!!!!! Yes?!?!

          Whiile McCain works with Evan Bayh[umbug] on “Budget Reforms” and raising his stock rather than helping to set up any potential challenge against Bayh-n-bayh…. as is Sessions with Claire McCackle out of MO…. (see: 2010 gains opportunities being scuttled? – are some RINO Republicans sand-bagging 2010/12 gain opportunities?) you want to just let him coast?

          We, of course, and I’d never argue, that we can/could purge ALL RINOs (it is NOT realistic), but the lead one has to be shown we’re tired of his antics.

          I very much understand and respect your position, I just have to be decidedly on the other side of your thoughts/opinion on this one.

          Take care!

          And I’m still waiting to hear our Republicans to start talking about (Daniel Hannan (British MEP) – mbecker’s:) What the Leader of the Republican Party should sound like! Productive vs non-Productive sectors of the Economy same here as in UK. McCain won’t even talk about shutting down the rest of the TARP and Stimulus SLUSH FUNDS.

          • The_Rebel

            about whether one is sufficiently conservative to warrant our monetary support. You are correct about Scott Brown in MA. Many here agreed with the discussion a few months ago that we should not fund candidates in blue states when those funds could be better used in red states with more conservative candidates. That really worked well in MA, didn’t it? At least the grassroots came in at the end when Brown was on the verge of winning.

            Granted, that Brown will disappoint conservatives from time to time, but you will know where he stands. He’s a straight shooter. He will not be making backroom deals a la McCain. That is why he should not have a problem with voters when he runs again in 2012.

            The way I look at it, the SOTU speech tonight would be tilted a lot more to the left (not that it isn’t now) had Scott Brown not been elected.

          • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

            is going for the most Conservative a Candidate that the Electorate in question will allow and can be elected! NO PROBLEM! Many of us are saying that AZ can, could, would, should, afford a more RELIABLE Conservative than we have put up with for far too long!!!! was/is the point here. And, of course, my initial Brown point was nothing ventured nothing gained – no excuse, because of inconvenient current polls, to not venture after McCain (as I’d been hoping for for so long: going at McCain in a Primary, finally). He should have been challenged long before now over his less than lackluster REAL Conservative credentials.

            And, as advocated elsewhere in thread, I am for an exception to the other rule-of-thumb (my normal MO) ignoring the 11th Commandment. We have to stop attacking fellow Republicans, and ADVOCATING REASONS FOR the preferred choice rather than doing the Democrats job of ripping apart with distortions and lies about other GOP Primary Candidates…. but again, in this case, I’m more than happy to be as nasty as possible regarding McCain. Hope you’ll seek out my suggestion on a “Real CONSERVATIVE Republicans AGAINST MCCAIN” PAC idea ;-) lol — that is along those lines, elsewhere in this diary discussion.

          • mbecker908

            You don’t know your a$$ from a hole in the ground about Arizona or Arizona politics. And you are using this diary to prove that you are as close to totally unhinged as anybody who’s ever posted at Redstate.

            Frankly, your arguments are SO stupid that really deserve being Hinz Ruled but it’s a slow night.

            1. The Democrats have exactly one person who has any statewide name recognition and that is Terry Goddard the AG. He’s running for Governor and if somehow Jan Brewer survives the primary – and I doubt she will – he will beat her like a drum and be our next Governor. He is NOT about to run for Senate, McCain already beat the crap out of him once and he’s not going there again.

            2. As of right now the declared Democrats for Senate are so weak that the Arizona Democratic Party doesn’t even list “US Senate” as a race on their website. The “best” candidate is a city councilman from Tucson who’s not even all that well known in Tucson.

            3. The Dems aren’t about to put any national money into this race. The AZ Democrats are as broke as JD Hayworth (well maybe not that broke) and they’ve got three seats to defend that they should lose.

            4. The Republican Primary race is about four things. First, personalities. Second, money. Third, endorsements. Fourth, organization. I’ll address each, but first I want to note that there is absolutely NO linkage between the Massachusetts Miracle and the Arizona Primary and I’ll address that first.

            5. Coakley didn’t campaign until the numbers had turned against her and she then ran the worst campaign in the history of the US Senate. She ran supporting Obama’s programs which aren’t popular even in MA and national security was a major issue with MA voters. Scott Brown ran one of the best campaigns ever. Very positive and he capitalized on Coakley’s hoof in mouth disease. Brown also managed to have money before the Coakley negative ads hit. Oh and did I mention that Scott Brown is an incredibility attractive and “nice” guy.

            McCain won’t take time off and show up too late. He won’t be campaigning in favor of Obama’s agenda. He won’t be defending Obama’s record on national security. The race will turn on the four elements I cited above.

            6. Personalities. Yeah, I hear “the base” doesn’t like McCain. Actually, they don’t particularly like McCain’s politics. However, in the MOST red parts of the state – Sun City retirement communities – John McCain is an American hero. He is “one of them”. JD Hayworth, even with Joe Arpaio’s endorsement, will be lucky to get 15% of the vote. He’s rightly perceived as an arrogant loudmouth and when he starts running attack ads – which are the only kind he’ll run – those folks will take it personally.

            Let’s look at the rest of the state with respect to personalities. The reason JD got his head handed to him by Mitchell is because he is an arrogant loudmouth and a whiner. He couldn’t win back that House seat if he had $10MM to spend and Mitchell got arrested for peddling child porn. The voters in Arizona are absolutely, utterly sick of JD Hayworth. I expect McCain and various 3rd party 527′s to run ads with FoxNews clips from when JD was in office along with talk radio clips. JD is simply a wealth of really stupid statements. And he will have no come back for them.

            7. Money & Endorsements. McCain has $5MM in the bank. JD is about $100K in the hole left over from the 2006 race. McCain can probably raise another $5MM if he thinks he needs it. Palin is scheduled to come to town in March and hold a fund raiser. I expect that she will come back again if she needs to. Look for Scott Brown to come to town. JD will have endorsements from people nobody knows, including Rep. WhatsHisName from CA. He’s been endorsed by Arpaio and for every vote it gains him in metro Phoenix it will lose him two outside of Maricopa County. Here’s where you tell me that the Tea Party folk will send him money like they did for Brown. Won’t happen. Brown’s poll numbers were going up, JD’s are already going down. Because he will have to spend as much as fifty dollars to win the general McCain can spend everything on the primary. JD won’t even get close.

            8. Organization. McCain has one, JD doesn’t.

            9. Other stuff. McCain will likely spend a million or so on pounding JD before JD has lunch money. The poll in November that got everybody fired up had McCain up by two – 45-43. JD hasn’t even opened his mouth yet (which will really hurt him) and McCain’s advertising isn’t really factored into the latest numbers and Rasmussen has McCain up 53-31. It won’t get any better for JD.

            You can stomp your feet and howl about “making a point” ’till hell freezes over and it won’t put a dent in McCain’s margins. He likely won’t run in ’16 and if it looks like he’s going to there will be time to prep for Shadegg or Flake, either of whom could probably beat him. They’re both more conservative than JD and they don’t have his baggage – which will take a very long freight train to carry.

            Every dollar spent on this race is a dollar that can’t be spent on a winnable House or Senate race.

            And for Ace, I really don’t give a rip what you call McCain. Just don’t spend limited resources jousting at windmills because you don’t like the guy. Trust me, I like him one hell of a lot less than anybody here and it galls the hell out of me to write this stuff. He will not and can not be beaten in Arizona this year. Get over it. You are wasting everybody’s time and money and and organization that can be much, much better spent elsewhere.

          • gekster

            wich one is more conservative?

          • aesthete

            in the middle of the woods, did he ever really run?

          • mbecker908

            Toss a coin. I don’t happen to consider McCain any kind of conservative. But then again neither is Scott Brown and I don’t think that Sarah Palin governed as a conservative in Alaska. She talks a good game now, but there’s no “there” there.

            If you want a “conservative” Senator from Arizona figure out a way to get either John Shadegg or Jeff Flake to run. You could legitimately build a “Scott Brown” case for either of them. It cannot be made for JD Hayworth. Hayworth is going to get a couple of percent more than the unknown Dem who will run in the general. But only a couple.

            If in fact JD runs it won’t be close and every dollar spent on the race will be more wasted than TARP dollars.

          • skat

            gekster,
            I’d say JD is more conservative.
            I’d say McCain is much more electable.
            As I stated elsewhere, JD lost his re-election in the AZ 5th Congressional District – a Republic seat since 1985. JD can’t win without carrying the 5th District – a district McCain has consistently carried. The 5th District is also overwhelmingly Republican – if JD can’t even hold that seat how can he get elected in a statewide election?
            I’ve supported JD, if he wins the primary I will again.

          • AceInTX

            And for Ace, I really don?t give a rip what you call McCain. Just don?t spend limited resources jousting at windmills because you don?t like the guy. Trust me, I like him one hell of a lot less than anybody here and it galls the hell out of me to write this stuff. He will not and can not be beaten in Arizona this year. Get over it. You are wasting everybody?s time and money and and organization that can be much, much better spent elsewhere.

            You don’t need to worry about me wasting any of my money on this because I don’t have it to give…I’m not sure if I’d send it if I had it…that would depend on the next couple of weeks…But what I can do is keep it front in center in people’s mind what a crass, craven, worthless peace of crap McCain is…maybe I’m kicking a dead horse…I’m willing to take your word for that…but sometimes it’s therapeutic to pound something to a bloody pulp…

            This is where I am on this…I’ve said it several times…you can’t smack the ball out of the park if you never swing the bat. JD’s flawed to be sure…but he has two things going for him…he’s not McCain…and he’s running against McCain…

            As far as it goes…I can argue you’re wasting all your energy trying to discourage us…If JD is a one trick pony…then it’ll be obvious soon enough…but right now he’s the only pony we have…and forgive me if I take a stroll with him till we see where this goes…

            I’m not saying any of this with any ill will or acrimony so don’t take it as such

          • AceInTX
          • Scope

            have you wasted? I didn’t know that you set up a donation and volunteer site for Hayworth. Please provide the link.

            The trashing of those that don’t meet up to one’s expectations are getting tiring, and predictable.

          • skat

            Strange, that seems to be what is going on with McCain opponents.
            youngmonte can say whatever he wants to excuse JD loss in Congressional District #5, but that seat had been Republican since 1985.
            JD is less popular in that district than when he lost it! youngmonte even concedes that JD can’t carry the state without that district. How is that going to happen?
            We have some excellent conservatives running for the house. Maybe one of them would run for the Senate next time.

          • mbecker908

            That only works for unitary problems. This one is far from unitary. You want to take on McCain you’ve got to give up something. What you’ve got to give up to take on McCain is additional support – money & organization – that could be better used to help House Republicans take seats away from Democrats.

            The money is a zero sum game.

          • AceInTX

            again…you’re probably right…JD has NO chance…but McCain is out there funding campaigns for Kirk, Crist, Fiorina, Pawlenty, and a whole host of other RINOs and if he loses on minute’s slepp worrying about JD rather than pissing down every one’s leg and telling us it’s raining…then it’s worth it to me.

          • mbecker908

            a freaking joke. Threre are a few, very few, who are holding out hope for a Massachusetts Miracle. They also believe in the tooth fairy.

          • AceInTX
          • mbecker908

            The only thing that will happen is a whole bunch of money gets diverted away from races we can win and JD makes a fool of himself.

          • voteindy

            represented in the US Senate by such luminaries as Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow.

            LOL

          • AceInTX

            It’s about betrayal…it’s about arrogance…it’s and a condescending old fart the would stomp on his 99 year old mother for a chance to stick a shiv in the back of a fellow Republican and twist the blade.

            McCain is worthy of NOTHING but out contempt and derision because that’s all he has for us!

            and what’s so glaring here isn’t that people are defending him…it’s that they are attacking us for treating the great white maverick like he has treated us lo these many years!

      • aesthete

        Then don’t wast your money on Ned Lamont JD Hayworth. Joe Lieberman John McCain, a popular incumbent in his state, won’t be beat.

        If you want to get John’s panties in a wad, support our conservative candidates (who don’t have the McCain seal of approval) in AZ-01, AZ-05, and AZ-08. Heck, AZ-05 has two viable and conservative candidates vying for the primary spot (Schweikert and Ward; I prefer Ward, but both are solid). Don’t waste your money on that venture; those listed candidates can win, and put your money to good use. JD can’t win, and won’t put your money to good use.

  • youngmonte

    McCain and allies trying to paint JD Hayworth as a liberal spender? To quote Bill Clinton (dare I?), that dog won’t hunt. In fact, I would wager that if you added up every earmark Hayworth ever voted for in his 12 years in Congress it wouldn’t add up to the $850 billion McCain voted for in bailouts – not to mention the pathetic way McCain panicked in the wake of the economic meltdown, which sealed his fate in the election.

    You can bet a guy like Hayworth does not leave a good-paying radio job to tilt at windmills. If he is running it is becasue he thinks it is doable. We all need to rally round Hayworth. He’s not perfect, but he would be a huge improvement for conservatives. We’d never have to worry about where he stands like we do with the incumbent.

    • mbecker908
  • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

    so we can donate to from far and wide and can run independent of any Primary Challenger…. A PAC that can run the Ads that McLame wouldn’t run against Obama in 2008… In fact, time to run COMPARISON ADS OF MCCAIN AND OBAMA that show how he has far too much in common to be returned to the Senate for AZ.

    • mbecker908

      much money from AZ. We’ll be supporting House candidates who can win. You’re encouraging people to simply piss money into the Salt River.

      • skat

        mbecker908
        You know what they’ll say? Well, the Salt River could use it! I think some of these people have gotten ahold of some high grade peyote.
        Again, I will support any Republican candidate over any Democrat!

    • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

      FINALLY… as part of a non-ending relentless set of “General Advocacy Ads” that we should NOT have as the GOP Candidate anyone that has produced such betrayels… Those could/should be GENERAL PAC Ads, under McCains beloved CFR law guidelines (hit him with his own BS), that DO NOT advocate any particular Candidate, just reminders/comparisons of how/when/where McCain was/is with Obama and/or any other Progressive/Liberals/Democrats.

      Conclude each Ad with…. It’s time for a CHANGE in AZ …. as yet another subtle reminder/link back to Obama.

    • mbecker908

      Michigan?

      Find a race close to home and spend your energy there. You’re wasting your time on this one.

      • Achance

        is a popular sport. Certainly far more popular than defeating Democrats.

      • http://www.ssce.net/Web-Articles/Web-articles-indexed-authors.html#authors-l JLenardDetroit

        shame you had to stoop to it, when I very well suspect you full well understand that this is about far more than just 1 Senate seat that happens to be in AZ…. It is, and therefore more than fair for anyone from anywhere in the country to comment about (and as you two comment about in regard to other States not your own often), about WRONG DIRECTION REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP and McCain being the chief problem in it!!!

        Guess we should have all just never said anything about MA either…. Just as FL has bigger concerns and implications than just to people in FL (also hints of Republican Leadership direction/control, as is too with PA)…. Oh, never mind the National implications there, if we’re not from MA (or FL, or PA, you voice any opinions there?!?!?) would should have just stayded quiet. Yes, different in talking about a Rep over a Dem, but alike in regard to the fact that there are National implications and fair concern to all Republicans anywhere/everywhere! Should I keep the link to remind you next time you voice any opinion about anyone else’s State? Of course I shouldn’t, as you have the Right to voice it out of overall concern for Conservative values being furthered across the country for the betterment of the Country and the Party. It’s not so much about AZ’s seat, but about McCain’s sellouts, and many of us see it that way, some of us have had it!!!! You yourself have aired complaints, we just don’t agree that it is any longer safe/tolerable to have him around to betray Conservatives and the GOP’s chances again in the future (which again, he’s already undermining chances at going agianst Bayh as I and others have pointed out elsewhere).

        I understand the “any warm body R adds to the count to reclaiming a Majority” and can appreciate and respect (shame you can’t be of others viewpoints) position and am, in this case, willing to no longer EXCUSE McCain and tolerate his betrayels in the name of that Majority count goal — because it is about the bigger concern of Republican Leadership and not wanting him to have ANY possible/potential claim to it when we retake the Senate! It wouldn’t matter what State McCain is from! I have made clear I am making an exception, to what I would also hold to also that we need to keep our numbers! The greater issue, this time, IMO (and others siding in this instance), is the greater long term harm we know he always does to the Conservative movement within the Party and we have to show TEApeaters we are serious in wanthing them as Conservatives to join with us in the GOP to fully promote those Conservative values. It always goes back to McCains courtship with Democrats and cozying up to the MSM to be loved and giving them foder against fellow Republicans (even worse, Conservatives). I suspect you fully understand that, and we just disagree on the importance of the 1 seat over the importance of the Leadership and direction of the Party.

        It is telling the absence of some here at RS not bothering to join in on the discussion as it is those who are…. I suppose some might be open to the “ok, we need the R toward majority control going forward’ but they don’t join in because they are tired of expending their credibility for McCain who doesn’t show enough loyalty back to Conservatives.

        That’s all it’s about…. Republican Leadership going forward and not wanting McCain as part of it in ANY way shape or form officially or even as just the MSM love-affair playing up his elder-statesmen Republicanism BS…. I certainly don’t need to make it personal with you, nor you with me, and deflect. Your position is noted, and that I agree with you (and Art) on other subject-matter is not a factor in this discussion, and I fully understand (and again, can respect it) and that you’re willing to be perhaps the lone voice (when even Erick makes a reference in one of his FP diaries “if we?re lucky, John McCain is going to get beaten by a conservative this year” here) on it is admirable and no reason you should belittle your thoughts by stooping to the deflection – tough to be a lone voice on a subject. We just disagree, and others also want and have every right to voice our opinions on/about it as we are doing.

        Take care….

        • mbecker908

          I don’t have time to rip this pathetic paen to shreds at the moment. I will have time later and will definitely get to it.

        • aesthete

          if John McCain wins. John McCain will win, because JD as a depresses turnout in conservative Phoenix, and slightly increases turnout in liberal Tucson. He has no base, is in the hole to the tune of 100K, and is running against the equivalent of Kennedy in a primary. It’s telling that our conservative heavyweights, Shadegg and Flake are sitting this one out: they’re not stupid enough to waste their money on a fool’s errand. Unfortunately for us, we have a fool to run that errand in JD.

  • Scope

    what has McCain voted against/for that would make him any better than a Democrat. Please don’t include his election campaign years for president or senate. Also, how do you think McCain would feel about the fruit of the loom bomber being merandized, and, not interogated to gain valuable information. Once re-elected, and safe for another six years, where do you think McCain would come down on any Cap and Trade legislation that may still come up. Where do you think McCain will be on drilling for our own oil and gas, when he has already said that ANWAR, and everywhere else for that matter, should be protected as national landmarks. I think the McCainiacs, who believe that only he can win in an election, and any R must win, no matter what the consequences, should be the first to answer those questions.

    • skat

      Scope,
      I posted some replies to your JD questions above.
      I haven’t seen Arizonans saying “only he can win” – we are saying get a candidate that has a chance to hold the seat if he defeats McCain in the primary.
      Rather than debating McCain’s faults, are you seriously stating we would be better off with a Democrat?
      McCain has been out front on health care reform involving tort reform, health insurance across state lines, etc. He is going to stick on that, believe me.
      McCain is adamantly pro-life, not going to change.
      McCain is pro-national defense, pro-military, very important stances that will not waver.
      McCain voted against the “stimulus”. Yes, he voted for the original bail-out, but many people mistakenly thought that was the correct action at that time.
      Only my opinion, if push comes to shove, John McCain will be for enhanced interrogation methods – actually, he has stated that as a fact.
      Anyone seriously believing a Democrat would be better isn’t following John McCain’s votes and stands. I can’t believe conservatives would advocate a win for a Dem is a good thing.

      You people would rather have a Arizona Democrat voting for the stimulus, health care, etc instead of McCain voting against them? REALLY?

      We got stuck with Janet Napalitano due to this kind of idiocy! Sheriff Joe – whom I support – threw his support to Janet over a conservative, Matt Salmon. Why? Pettiness. It cost Matt the governorship. It cost Arizona a lot!

      • Scope

        because he is up for re-election. He knows how a majority of the country only voted for him to stop the Communist. He has an opponent that no one rational has claimed is not Conservative. He knows the country now claims to be 40% conservative. Not many are missing the fact that he is endorsing the most moderate/liberal choices for various state primaries. The call for him to retire has only just begun.

        Be glad I don’t live in Arizona, because, yes, if the Democrat were a moderate Democrat, I would vote for them before McCain. It probably would be a step up from what crap McCain will continue to do once re-elected. Like a Leopard, his spots will never change.

        • skat

          scope,

          McCain has pushed for those healthcare reforms- insurance across state lines, tort reform, etc – for a long time.
          McCain has always been anti-earmark – even at Arizona’s expense.
          McCain has always been pro-military, pro-defense
          McCain has always been staunchly pro-life.

          Either you really don’t know anything about John McCain or else you want to deliberately distort his record. At any rate, you don’t know what you are talking about.

          By the way, despite youngmonte’s claim, JD lost his seat in a very conservative Republican district. A district that had been Republican since 1985. If JD can’t carry that district he can’t carry the state.

          If you really are interested in facts you might want to check this article regarding JD and the synagogue mess:
          http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/1022hayworth1022.html

          It seems odd that you continue to push people to vote for Democrats instead of Republicans. I wonder if you are really that uninformed or if you are actually rooting for the Democrats.

          Since, as you say I’m very thankful you don’t live in Arizona, why don’t you straighten out your own state.

          I see no reason to continue a conversation with someone who distorts facts to promote the election of Democrats

      • mbecker908

        Well, most importantly, he voted for Mitch McConnell and against Harry Reid for majority leader.

  • joayn

    “Savor the irony: After a career spent bashing the right flank of the party, Sen. McCain is now clinging to its coattails to save his incumbent hide.” From her “Conservatives: Beware of McCain Regression Syndrome” article (asking Sarah Palin to campaign for him).

    I will never forget – ever the courageous, ethical and civilized gentleman that he is – when Huckabee and McCain worked out a back room deal to shut out Romney. Always the one to screw over another Republican, but no heat for the One. God, I HATED voting for that guy. The things he said and did to GWB still burn in my brain.

    My uncle lives in Tucson and you would not believe the e-mails I get from him about “Juan” McCain. He does some major hatin’ on the guy almost daily. Needless to say, he will not be voting for the Maverick.

  • joayn

    “John McCain, Evan Bayh team up on spending freeze bill.”

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0110/32022.html

    Nice call. Lindsay Graham’s next.

    • Brian Faughnan

      I wish I could say I was surprised. This will lead to higher taxes.

  • azghostconservative

    McCain is a maverick who has often worked against conservatives during his years in the Senate.

    http://nomccain2010.bravehost.com

    • mbecker908

      Lay out a strategy that gets McCain defeated by any of the current lot. You can start out by addressing the nine specifics I laid out above.

      And your link is pathetic.

  • wendy

    The problem is not purity, but that McCain is actively attempting to overthrow the free market ideology of the GOP. He is working to get a statist ideology instituted as the basic platform and to get adherents to his ideology elected and in positions of power. That changes everything. It is far more dangerous to have him continue on, destroying the Tea Party movement’s successes, than to have a single Democrat in that seat.

    This is so obvious, I don’t understand how anyone can fail to grasp this. Practical questions such as how a challenger can win are irrelevant to the question. Conservatives have a moral responsibility to work against his re-election, and to refrain from voting on that seat if he secures the primary.

    Things worked out well when we applied this strategy in 2008, so I don’t know why everyone is so fearful.

  • wendy

    The problem is not purity, but that McCain is actively attempting to overthrow the free market ideology of the GOP. He is working to get a statist ideology instituted as the basic platform and to get adherents to his ideology elected and in positions of power. That changes everything. It is far more dangerous to have him continue on, destroying the Tea Party movement’s successes, than to have a single Democrat in that seat.

    This is so obvious, I don’t understand how anyone can fail to grasp this. Practical questions such as how a challenger can win are irrelevant to the question. Conservatives have a moral responsibility to work against his re-election, and to refrain from voting on that seat if he secures the primary.

    Things worked out well when we applied this strategy in 2008, so I don’t know why everyone is so fearful.

  • oliverc

    I believe we would have some form of nationalized health care if McCain were not up for re-election. He would have reached across the aisle once again to form a left leaning coalition to pass something the American people abhor under the guise of bipartisanship and compromise. This is how McCain moves the liberal agenda forward.

    I believe if you look at his ACU approval after 2001 when McCain snuggled up with Soros, you would find different numbers. Not nearly 81%. Soros funded McCain’s Reform Institute which hatched McCain-Feingold. McCain-Feingold gave control of the Democrat Party through the 527 loophole allowing groups to run ads and doing away with hard money contributions, hurting the Dems. [This is probably why Obama is so angry at SCOTUS--repealing parts of McCain-Feingold threatens Soros.] McCain also made ads for Soros anti-gun group, American for Gun Safety, with Joe Lieberman.

    McCain is dangerous and you can bet if he is re-elected we will a bipartisan amnesty fight on our hands, crafted by McCain. We have traitors on both sides of the aisle. It will happen early in 2011 when the next election is 2 years off.

    McCain must be defeated. He cannot get away with repositioning himself as a Conservative. This RINO will be Obama’s best friend when the 2011 Congress begins and the country will be in more trouble than we are right now.

  • Himtngal

    Frankly, Juan “Obama Lite” McCain is a legend in his own mind. His association with Juan Hernandez, La Raza, Mecha, Maldef and his push for Amnesty with Ted Kennedy is not what conservatives want.

    It’s time for him to retire and work with his wife and daughter on gay marriage. Arizonans deserve a kinder, gentler Senator. J. D. fits the bill just fine. NO AMNESTY, NOT NOW, NOT EVER.

    Also, Sarah Palin is a falling star. For her to support Amnesty and pump for McCain makes no sense. She’s no “true conservative”.
    Further, charging $100,000 for speaking engagements for fellow republicans is ridiculous. She’s in it for the money – no one, is worth $100,000 to speak. Sarah is no longer the darling of the tea party movement. In fact, she’s toast with them.