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The GOP cannot out-left the Left

Cutting off one leg of the stool makes no sense

On The Day After, David Frum wrote an election post-mortem that told the GOP that we must move left. His words:

College-educated Americans have come to believe that their money is safe with Democrats – but that their values are under threat from Republicans. And there are more and more of these college-educated Americans all the time.

So the question for the GOP is: Will it pursue them? To do so will involve painful change, on issues ranging from the environment to abortion. And it will involve potentially even more painful changes of style and tone: toward a future that is less overtly religious, less negligent with policy, and less polarizing on social issues.

I’ve read a couple of Frum’s works, and he is consistent in imploring the GOP to move more to the middle. This seems to be a theme, and it’s creeping into the writings of our diarists and commenters. And frankly, I’m a little annoyed by it.


I swore I wouldn’t do an election postmortem, because I find them somewhat tiresome. But it is required in order to make the point that a move left on social issues is a wrong move. So why do I believe McCain failed last Tuesday? Several factors:

  1. George W. Bush hangover – Obama was quite successful in hanging the “four more years of failed Bush policies” meme on McCain’s back. This country has had enough of President Bush, and frankly, it’s not just the Dems – it extends pretty far into the GOP as well. The Hope Hype plays here, big time.
  2. Economics – It’s no big secret that McCain took a nose dive in the polls after the finance industry meltdown began and the DJIA followed suit. Despite the fact that the collapse of the mortgage industry was largely on the shoulders of the Clinton administration and the Dems who pushed for governmental interventions such as the CRA, Bush and the GOP were the fall guys.
  3. Taxes – Obama was successful in painting himself as the Tax Cutter, despite the fact that his 95% pledge is mathematically impossible and his $250K income ceiling shifted faster than a NASCAR driver. Strike another advantage for McCain.
  4. National security – Well, O didn’t win this one, but the Iraq war is on the down side (thank God), and there have been no significant terrorist hits in recent months (thank God again), so this was not an area where the electorate had huge concerns (McCain supporters in the GOP, perhaps, but not the bulk of the voters)

Did you note anything conspicuously absent from the campaign rhetoric and “why did Obama win” talking points? How about social issues? Other than GOP/conservative points about Obama’s radical support of abortion (which was NOT picked up by the Obamedia), there was relative silence outside California, where the debate about Prop 8 was hot and heavy. And… what won in CA? Why, Prop 8. One of the most liberal states in the union passed a ballot measure that is anathema to liberals.

The GOP cannot win by trying to be Democrat copycats. If voters want socialists, they will go to the real thing, which they did. In Friday’s NYT Op-Ed, Ramesh Ponnuru pointed out (as many here have) that McCain failed with the moderates. Ponnuru states:

Based on the exit polls from 2004 and Tuesday, Republicans have lost more ground among self-described moderates than among conservatives. Even if Senator McCain had won the same percentage of conservatives that President Bush did in 2004, he would not have won. Moving right will work only if moderates are given a reason to move right too.

But the money quote from Ramesh is here:

The way to court these moderates is not to abandon social conservatism, which would alienate many of the voters Republicans still have. The party needs to “move to the middle” less than it needs to move to the middle class: to go back to representing the interests of voters in the middle of the income spectrum.

This is where Obama succeeded – he appealed to the middle class with his lies promises about a middle class tax cut and universal health care coverage – an issue that is near and dear to most in the middle class.

 

What of the social conservatives? Why can’t the GOP just move left on social issues and allow the center to “pick up the slack?” As Naomi Schaefer Riley stated in Friday’s WSJ, the Evangelical voting block continued its virtually unbroken support for the GOP, and over 74% of “white, born-agains” voted for McCain. Evangelicals were again the most dependable, loyal supporters – 23% of the electorate, although interestingly, McCain dropped seven percentage points with Catholics from Bush in 2004. With these numbers in mind, would it be sane for the GOP to stick its fingers in the eye of its most dependable voting bloc? I think not. Riley notes:

As Republicans lick their wounds over the next few months, some will ask whether the GOP coalition of small-government proponents, foreign-policy hawks and religious conservatives can be preserved. Members of the first two groups may suggest that the social issues are simply too divisive, that the party should focus on the free market at home or strength abroad. Leave aside for a minute that most evangelicals support those ideas as well. Tuesday provides plenty of reasons to believe that the culture war is not over and to suggest that social issues, instead of being blamed for the Republican loss, should be the key to the party’s expansion.

(emphasis mine)

It makes no sense for the GOP to move left on social issues. Social conservatism is but one of three legs of the conservative stool – fiscal conservatism and “defense conservatism” are the other two. The GOP has much work to do on the FiCon side in wiping away the excesses of the Bush administration, and we must also work to ensure that the progress made in national security during the Bush years are not unraveled by the peacenik wing of the Democrat side of the aisle. We must keep the legs of the stool even. Cutting off the SoCon leg would be unwise, if not stupid.

We should not – we cannot – out-left the Left.

COMMENTS

  • LoneApple

    Then what truly distinguishes us from Democrats? As they say, if the choice is between Democrats and nearly Democrats, voters that want the former will not vote for the latter; they’ll want the real thing.

    For democracy to work, voters have to be give a true choice not different degrees of the same thing. Our goal should be to stay true to ourselves and to conservative and Republican principles so that we can provide a choice for voters who will soon be sick of the excesses of the Democrats.

  • JoeG

    I’m very glad you’re a front page diarist!

  • rjd27

    believes this, and I’m not sure there are those do not, then the GOP is going to become extinct.

    The party must move more to the Right, if it wants to win national elections again. This has always been the case.

  • UncommonRight

    I have read a few of the articles out there on the web about conservatives moving to the middle, and I too am annoyed by them. It would be a disaster to move to the middle. Our greatest asset is our values, and values voters. To abandon those principles will mean more elections like this year.

    And anyway, these are our principles. People crying out to be more socially moderate are missing the fact that principles are not predicated upon how to best garner more votes. Principles stand on their own, regardless of what is popular or the flavor of the month.

    If that were the case, we really would be trying to ‘out left the left’.

  • peg_c

    which leaves a vacuum. Nature abhors a vacuum so thus the Republicans move to the center to fill it. Rush and others predicted this years and years ago.

    I predict we will not move to the right and Dems will not recover their senses until a cataclysm occurs. Then the cycle starts all over again. I love humanity – it’s people I can’t stand…

  • liberalrepublican
    1. R’s need to be clearly different from D’s. Heading towards the center is a losing strategy. I would like to see a clear-cut difference on economic policy – lower taxes, cut spending & pork and stop tinkering in economic markets.

    2. R’s need to acknowledge the changing demographics. Out reach HAS to be done to groups outside of white, red state voters. For example, there is no way that 95% of African Americans are liberal. We need to compete for conservative blacks and Latinos.

  • Mike_Dugas

    McCain tried to play nice and the Libs shoved it down his throat. We have to fight fire with fire. I’m not saying sink down to voter fraud and the like but we needed to go overboard the minute it started. Law suit after law suit…force it in the press. In our face back at them
    even harder. And most of all we need articulate conservative voices who can speak for us in a way that everyone can understand. Cuz I’m telling ya right now, the Dems will take what they have achieved and it will become SOP. The media will do the same and every election they will refine it more and more. ACORN, La Raza etc will turn voter fraud into an art. And we will have a Dem Pres and both Houses of Congress, most of the MSM and voter fraud groups becoming a highly organized team working in a coordinated effort
    to destroy republicans and our party.
    They have already started to work on
    closing down our voices on A.M. radio
    with the so-called Fairness Doctrine.
    This is going to be a hard, up-hill battle and we better have the cojones
    to fight this fight or we are toast.

  • LiberalLurker

    and usual lurker, I have noticed that the Republican party has pretty much abdicated the libertarian ground, once a major voting bloc.

    There are a lot of little l libertarians out there who think the Libertarian party is nuts and now feel kinda homeless.

    Take the heart of Ron Paul’s message, remove the insane parts and you’ll have something that’s attractive to a lot of people. Move to the left socially and to the right fiscally. Don’t go as far as the Libertarian party, ie keep the interstates and such.

    I’d consider voting for a Goldwater style Republican but there don’t seem to be any left.

  • liberalrepublican

    Small government R’s are becoming a dying breed.

    Goldwater might be ostracized by today’s Republican party.

  • Wubbies_World

    … winning the argument within the Republican party the past several election cycles by saying that we need to expand the party into the center and avoid extremism. They have been saying that going too far right would scare voters with extremism and doom the party.

    The Compassionate Conservatism and The New Tone have been entirely predicated upon this premise.

    How successful has it been so far?

    It has brought us full circle right back into the wilderness again. The same place the Republican party was before the Conservatives took us out of the wilderness. Now the moderates continue to argue that this is the way to win.

    However, results speak loader than words. The results have been disastrous for the Republican party. Now they come back and tell us that the reason why we lost is because we did not go far enough left! The moderate Republicans want us to cut off Evangelical Christians. These are our most reliable voting block and the moderates want us to complete the party suicide process by cutting these voters loose.

    To be perfectly honest, I have no problem with moderates. I want to work with them. However, I am going to have my head explode trying to figure out why the moderates of the party are so determined to make the party suicide process total?

    Why won’t moderates work with social conservatives? Why are they determined to destroy the party if they can’t have their way? It is almost like they are having a tantrum. Why won’t they give conservatives a shot?

    I just don’t understand it. The moderates in the party would rather have the party die instead of admit they way is not working.

    Please somebody tell me what I am missing in this equation!

  • Hermes

    “We need to compete for conservative blacks and Latinos.”

    Have you seen the Howard Stern clip? Blacks voted for Obama for one reason; I’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t his policies. Stern’s clip (and other “Man on the Street” type interviews) clearly showed that at least a few of Obama’s black supporters not only did not know Obama’s actual policies (they believed that he was pro-life and pro-Iraq war), they also had no trouble believing that Sarah Palin was his running mate!

    Apart from that, what non-religious black conservatives are you aware of? I can think of about 10: J.C. Watts, Michael Steele, Ward Connerly, Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, John McWhorter, Lynn Swann, Ken Blackwell, and Alan Keyes. That’s being generous, since McWhorter is a more of a libertarian and Alan Keyes is, well Alan Keyes.

    Regarding Latinos, I can think of no prominent conservatives. Granted, I haven’t researched the topic, but that just goes to show that they don’t really seem to be in the public eye.

    I would happily support outreach to both communities, but neither seems particularly receptive to what Republicans have to offer. 9 out of 10 blacks voted for Obama. Something like 7 out of 10 Latinos voted for Obama, despite McCain’s “friend of amnesty” record. Why exactly should we waste resources on either of these groups?

  • Hermes

    I constantly preach that the 1964 Goldwater playbook is the one that got Reagan his victories. Straying from that lands the GOP in the mess of 1992, 1996, 2006, 2008.

  • mdetlh

    redistribution of income tax returns towards the working poor?
    I’m not in whole hearted agreement that 40% of the electorate pay no income taxes when the corporate tax rates are at 35%. Obama won with more of the same with perhaps a little extra to grease the palms of the persistently lower middle class.

    So McCain unintentionally painted 40% of the working adults as deadbeats, a insult to the frustration of living pay check with the high fuel costs/ weak USD policies.

  • Hermes

    The problem is many are still smarting from the boot to the backside that Dole gave them in 1996. Paleocons and libertarian conservatives still treasure Goldwater’s wisdom. It’s just that we haven’t been heard from in about a decade. That needs to change if the GOP wants to get back on top.

  • mdetlh

    redistribution of income tax returns towards the working poor?
    I’m not in whole hearted agreement that 40% of the electorate pay no income taxes when the corporate tax rates are at 35%. Obama won with more of the same with perhaps a little extra to grease the palms of the persistently lower middle class.

    So McCain unintentionally painted 40% of the working adults as deadbeats, a insult to the frustration of living pay check with the high fuel costs/ weak USD policies.

  • liberalrepublican

    Opened the first Planned Parenthood in AZ and strongly supported abortion.

  • liberalrepublican

    Uneducated street people that Stern interviews for his show don’t actually represent all African Americans.

    It’s true.

    There are many convservative blacks and Latinos that could be turned into R’s but there has to be an effort.

    The demographic reality is that R’s will have to if they are to have any future.

  • Whitehorse

    I’m pounding home the theme you describe – we need all 3 legs of the stool. The 3 legs together – strong national defense, conservative social issues, & limited government fiscal responsibility are needed for us to win. It’s repetitious, however too many have abandoned the limited government fiscal responsibility portion & that has caused the loss of the house, senate & now the presidency.

    I’d love to be the leader to bring this about, however I don’t have the power & am NOT photogenic. I hope & pray we will have a leader or leaders emerge who will reclaim the leg of limited government & fiscal responsibility. I fear that the Obama administration & especially the “wild things” in congress will give many targets & opportunities for us to do just that. Dear God please, send us a leader or leaders to do just that.

  • rightwink

    I am a non-Christian immigrant, acquired over 15 years of college (multiple US degrees), and was liberal until I had kids. Christian values & morals are very wholesome and admirable, and Governors Palin and Romney appealed to me very much.

    I spoke to many white middle-class college-educated neighbors in central NJ, and over 95% were in favor of McCain & Palin, but thought that he missed every opportunity to fight back with hard-hitting statements on Ayers, Wright, Freddie & Fannie, Barney Franks, Dodd, the Mother of all Bailouts etc. Senator mcCain really took a plastic straw to a Tommy-gun fight.

    A lot of us are anxious for a true leader in the vein of Pres. Ronald Reagan to articulate a clear vision centered around strong social & fiscal conservatism, which we can believe in. Stick to what we know and do best; we cannot out-Left the Left, as you say, and should not even go there!

  • JustLeaveMeAlone

    So David Frum, et al, believe “college-educated Americans” believe what???

    Do these people ever actually take a step out into the real world, or do they exist in their pristine academia/journalistic capsules somewhere? Is the Potomac actually flowing with kool-aid?

    Here’s a flash for you: many of we college-educated Americans worked our butts off to put ourselves through college, sometimes borrowing money to do so, and through that experience we learned about the real world, cementing our own fiscal conservatism.

    And once in the working world, we saw the failure of the practical application of some of our youthful ideals. We realized that a hand out is not a hand up.

    Thanks for calling out this appalling trend. If I want to vote left, I’ll vote Dem. No worries.

    What the Republicans need to do is to (1) stay true to their principles and (2) clean up the friggin’ corruption that embarrasses us all and hurts our cause.

    Oh, and stop being so dang sensitive about being called “radical right”, etc.
    Let ‘em jeer. Just deliver results.

  • Hermes

    The problem is that moderates are about as exciting as drying paint. They cannot excite the base. Additionally their policies, which are nothing more than watered down socialism, don’t work, haven’t worked, will not work.

    The left and the moderates are doom and gloom. They are guilt and angst. They see the world in shades of gray. They live in world of darkness and shadow with no light, no truth, and no hope. They love nothing more than the stark, bleak, hopelessness of Virginia Woolf or the howling insansity of Allen Ginsburg. They love Andres Serrano’s desecration of the sacred with the profane and Nicholas Degenova’s agitprop theatre. They aspire to see man turned into a string of sausages, all the same. They will beat down the spirit of man until he is nothing more than a beast; he has lost his reason, his pride, his courage, and his faith. But at least all will be equal in their misery.

    [Borrowing from Ronald Reagan here] Authentic American conservatism, on the other hand, is based on the embrace of a bright colorful world of optimism, faith, and moral objectivism. Conservatives are romantics and rebels at heart. We love the idea of a good fight, especially for a lost cause. Call us the Don Quixote’s of politics. We love T.S. Eliot and Roy Campbell; C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien; George S. Patton and “Chesty” Puller. We like our steaks rare and our beer cold. We love nothing more than a challenge. Life comes in every color of the rainbow. We are the Marines at Mount Suribachi and the colonials at Valley Forge. We are the Boy Scouts and the deacons. We are the hostages in Iran and the heroes and victims of 9/11. We are the last best hope of Earth. We are America.

  • Hermes

    Where are these droves of black and Latino conservatives? Give me some names, I’ll be glad to listen to what they say.

    Blacks are on the Dem plantation and there they will stay until they wise up and dump the Farrakhans, and the Sharptons, and, dare I say it, the Obamas.

    Latinos, culturally, are conservative, but, for some reason that I cannot fathom, vote Democrat in overwhelming numbers. Is it welfare, immigration, amnesty? It sure as heck ain’t values. I can name, probably, a dozen major Lation libs. Can you supply me with the names of an equal number of Latino conservative leaders? Again, same offer as with blacks. Tell me the names and I will be happy to hear what they have to say.

  • CSUFBomb

    …not because we didn’t move far enough left to buy votes by sprinkling unicorn dust in the eyes of voters.

    When BO talked big government, we should have been able to counter with the virtues of a smaller, less intrusive government . . . except we didn’t deliver on that promise when we had the chance.

    When BO talked about how his Gorebal warming policies would necessarily cause energy prices to skyrocket, we should have been able to counter with free market incentives for domestic production . . . except that our candidate opposed drilling in ANWR and supported the same cap & trade nonsense as the Left.

    We shot ourselves in the foot on nearly every domestic argument by moving closer to the L than the R and, for that reason, we deserved to lose.

  • Hermes

    Barry also went nuts in the 1980′s and became a mockery of his 1960/64 self. I am referring to the Conscience of a Conservative and the Barry Goldwater of 1964 that the Religious Right, including Pat Buchanan and William F. Buckley supported. Goldwater, as a man, was by no means the perfect conservative, but the blueprint that he designed in 1960 has been the underpinning of every major Republican victory since.

  • liberalrepublican

    There isn’t a strong conservative leadership, but there are millions of conservative blacks and Latinos.

    For example, blacks over overwhelmingly voted against Prop 8 in CA.

    I know plenty of conservative Latinos. The immigration debate turned many of them away from R’s because of the tone of the debate.

    You will find plenty of conservative Latinos who want to limit or end illegal immigration. And they would be good allies, but not if they feel personally under attack.

    However, you aren’t addressing my main points –

    1) There are millions of conservative black and Latino voters who don’t vote R. I believe it’s possible to win some of them, but only if we try.

    2) Demographics make it obvious that if R’s don’t, they will be marginalized.

  • antisocial

    I don’t thing the right social values should be a question. Its the fiscal conservatism that went missing. Its the moderates who preached that votes could be bought by changing stances to the left. I fail to understand why they were not called out.

    Also we need new blood. Need to start using technology. Need good communicators. Our leaders need to get rid of the bi-partisan attitude and start to show us that they do have backbone. Our leaders need to start working for the people.

    And we need to boot out the liberals or pseudo conservatives.

  • bs

    and actually meant that blacks voted overwhelmingly FOR Prop 8 in CA… right?

    See here

  • E_Pluribus_Unum

    You can finally put your name to good use describing the Treason Media and the rest of the leftist dirtbags.

    And to say that I’m insanely jealous doesn’t even begin to cover it. ;o)

  • liberalrepublican

    That’s what I meant.

    The myth of a uniformly liberal black community is greatly exaggerated.

    Ironically, the election of Obama may actually result in some blacks being more open minded to voting R.

    This election meant a lot more than issues to millions.

  • eburke

    Thank you…thank you…thank you for this diary.

    What moderates cannot get through their heads is that ‘bipartisanship’by its definition blurs distinctions between the parties (especially when as defined by the Dems it means capitulating to their agenda).

    “Bipartisanship” or ‘moderation’ means playing the game on their turf. If problems are framed through the lib prism of ‘this problem needs to be solved by the govt.’, they’ll always win because they’re going to give away a lot more money to solve it. If problems are framed through the prism of ‘we believe that freedom which unleashes the genius of American ingenuity’ will solve any crisis, we win hands down everytime.

    But we couldn’t do that on global warming … or the bailout … or border security… etc., etc., etc., because our guy had many of the same position as their guy.

    When I feared this election was over came at two points in the VP debate: when Sarah’s talking points told her to blame Wall Street greed for the economic meltdown rather than the Dems in the Senate, including Biden and Obama; and when she stumbled around on the gay marriage issue. You could just tell that what was in her heart was having a war with what she had been scripted to say so as not to turn off any possible ‘moderates’ on social issues. What the moderates didn’t hear was the millions of social conservatives saying to themselves – there’s no difference between either party, why bother.

    I don’t know how many surveys mods are going to have to see showing that the number of 1 issue abortion voters who are pro-life dwarf the number that are pro-choice before they figure out that being pro-life gains us many more votes than being pro-choice.

    Or…how many elections we have to lose running a ‘moderate’ candidate vs the number we win with a conservative candidate before they get a clue.

    I don’t want to kick moderates out of the party; I just don’t want them to be the voice or face of the party because they completely blur in the public mind the choice between freedom and statism.

  • simcard

    [Bye, fast200! - Moe Lane]

  • bs

    but I have to respond to this one.

    1. I am a Christian creationist. I respect a person’s right to believe what they want. If you want to believe in evolution, which is so numerically improbable from a statistical perspective that it takes just as much faith as creation to believe in, then go right ahead. That’s your business.
    2. The Prop 8 constitutional amendment was necessary because legal challenges have dismantled legislative alternatives in other states. Now I am sure that the Left will try to unhook this one via the Supreme Court of CA, but that will be much harder than convincing an already-left-leaning legislature. The Proposition process in CA has been abused for years – why shouldn’t the Right benefit from it for once?
    3. If you would go back and read the diary, you would note that I point out that there was no “head beating” taking place during the 2008 election. Social conservative issues were on the back burner. I don’t see that changing in the near future. So you get no sympathy from me on that front – SoCons sat back in this one and let McCain execute his own strategy (and himself, in the process).

    Now feel free to tell me what a right-wing SoCon wacko I am. I can take it.

  • mikefisk

    …whenever somebody preaches some moderation (or de-emphasis) on social issues, people come out of the woodwork saying that we can’t abandon social conservatives, when the party abandoned fiscal conservatives, economic conservatives, and right-leaning libertarians roughly a decade ago, and not only do the social conservatives not speak up, but they expect us to continue to vote Republican, and berate us when we, finally fed up with the mess, either stay home or vote Libertarian? I voted for Bush in 2004 and Barr last Tuesday, and, if this move towards “re-establishing” social conservative values continues in the party at the expense of other areas of conservatism, it becomes a point where the two major parties end up, from my perspective, largely alike, and both being anathema to my personal political views.

    Just saying.

  • Menlo

    I could be wrong, but I often wonder if the fact that there are so few black and Latino Republicans leads people to assume Republicans are against them.

    It’s like an endless cycle, and I don’t know how one would stop it. About the best I can think of is asking individuals specifically why they oppose Republicans (something I’ve never really heard much answer on) and work from there.

  • Menlo

    That type of libertarianism is extremely unpopular. I point out a lot on here that people identifying as socially liberal and fiscally conservative are four percent of the electorate nationwide.

    It works to the advantage of neither Republicans nor Democrats to appeal to that group.

    Ron Paul’s message was not so much libertarianism as much as Constitutionalism. I was saying on here before he’d make an ideal Supreme Court justice. He often appeared libertarian because he refused any action that the Constitution did not explicitly authorize.

  • JoeG

    “Ironically, the election of Obama may actually result in some blacks being more open minded to voting R.”

    I’m intrigued by the possibility. What’s your line of thinking that would cause that to come to pass?

  • itrytobenice

    But go read James Taranto’s Best of the Web Today, published for free by the Wall Street Journal. I can’t remember what day it was, but it was either Wed, Thurs, Fri, or today that he gave a historical analysis of the first Catholic, the first Southerner, etc.

  • JoeG

    I always liked the Rush quote:

    I’m still waiting on that book ‘Great Moderates of History’.

  • JoeG

    I’m a little l libertarian. (with the odd position of being strongly pro-life).

    We just need to get the message out:

    Fear the left’s fiscal policy more than the right’s social policy. There’s plenty of FUD out there among what social conservatives want to do, but I’ve yet to see any impact on my life. I certainly feel the impact of the left’s fiscal policy daily.

    Particularly since the republican party has caved on the fiscal conservatism.

    Forget dumping the social conservatives. They’ll stay in our party if we don’t do big government like many wish we would. But they’ll bolt if we bash them on their social views.

    Just put the third leg of fiscal conservatism back on the stool.

  • JoeG

    We don’t need more of:

    “We need a more modest foreign policy. Most Americans, including me, yearn for the time when the Bush Sr. White House practiced a more practical version of foreign policy. No nation building please.”

    Agreed on the nation building. But not on the modest part. Let’s go back to the Reagan, Kennedy, and Teddy foreign policy.

  • fanshaw

    Simcard is one of those people David Frum is talking about, a Republican who is uncomfortable with some of the attitudes he sees within a party he truly believes in. And I expect he is uncomfortable, in part at least, because he knows that the things he enumerated make it difficult to persuade the undecided to vote GOP.

    I believe the future of the Party rests on whether or not this rift is mended. Otherwise it will be in the hands of one faction while the other pouts and talks about forming a third party.

    I would be interested to see what common ground, if any, bs and simcard can find. Care to try?

  • JoeG
  • JakePrime

    I’m glad I’m not the only one.

  • LiberalLurker

    Everybody knows there’s money there.

    There’s a rock of small-government conservative populism waiting to be overturned. The evangelical right bloc is getting older. This is a place to look for votes from future generations.

    My whole family are diehard southern democrats who were initially really intrigued by Ron Paul. We got to the goldbug and federal reserve stuff and bailed.

    There’s something there.

  • JakePrime

    I completely agree. What’s the point of winning if you aren’t electing someone who represents you, not that we’d win Frum’s way anyway. I do think we could benefit from being less overtly religious in our rhetoric, but that shouldn’t mean that we abandon pushing our views.

  • JakePrime

    I had a great, long response but lost it. Essentially, I agree for the most part except I don’t think we should increase taxes, and I think we should maintain a strong foreign policy with the threat of force to back it up.

    Also, we need to make sure that the evolution/creationism/intelligent design argument never rears its head again. It’s a bit of a herring, but it makes a mockery of the Constitution and conservatives everywhere.

  • seattle_ite

    Hopefully, BS will forgive my meager attempt at mindreading.

    A) History proves that, statistically, every time taxes are raised “On The Rich” to “Pay their Fair Share”, jobs are lost. Most union and non-union jobs have a ‘last in, first out’ policy about layoffs and firings. Then they start to look at job performance, sick time and just general attitude. This tends to hit the lowest end of the wage scale, regardless of skin color. But I feel that our minority friends might start feeling a bit betrayed, after the first stimulus wears off.

    B) Minorities in general are more socially conservative. More could have been done to up-play the anti-life stand of the candidate, but Mac didn’t really want to go there. Prop 8 speaks for itself. Once these folks start seeing the extreme left fiscal and social moves in this Cabinet, things ain’t gonna be pretty.

    C) And my personal favorite. SPENDING! The whole cycle between ’04 and now has been all about “GOP Spends Like Drunken Sailor”. Right out of the gate, The Golden One has promised even more spending, and eventually more inflation/recession, reflecting even further on the lower class, eventually reaching middle class. And when that happens, HE CAN’T BLAME US!

    But, I may be wrong. What say you, BS?

  • seattle_ite

    I don’t know where the sticking point with mods is. Abortion is a good bet, but executions and the fear of proselytizing could be right up there. Some of the mods are obviously worried about rule of law, on both sides. None want to actually take a stand on much, or they wouldn’t be mods.

    I’d like to see sane libertarians join the GOP again, but we will have to find common ground to do it, ironically.

  • seattle_ite

    As disappointed as I was with the Foley and Craig scandals, it was the Members who were caught in financial doo-doo that really got my BP up.

    What we need are leaders who aren’t just out for the vote, and live the way we do. Mansions for Senators in a down economy is like a lemon squirt in the eye, for the working class.

    This led to the campaign meme of “Culture of Corruption”, that the GOP couldn’t shed, due to profligate spending.

  • seattle_ite

    Hit it right on the nose.

  • liberalrepublican

    Were driven away in large numbers by the tone of the immigration debate.

    Someone like Tancredo costs the R’s millions of votes nationally.

  • seattle_ite

    That’s what we need from our ‘leaders’.

  • seattle_ite

    There are some issues that simply do not invite moderation.

    We want to project, if not actual strength in the world, at least to show the will to do so, if necessary. Throwing money around at the diplomatic table hasn’t helped, ever.

    Both sides can agree that life is sacred. Ours is the unborn, theirs is the condemned. Where’s the common ground gonna come from?

    Financial liberty, or social, can only be guaranteed through our confident strength and character, not our concern about public opinion.

  • smagar

    Yes, that’s a bold title—but I wanted to catch people’s eyes.

    Perhaps Frum is responding to the DO THIS OR DIE tone the pro-life movement’s leadership (Dobson, Perkins, etc…) let fly at the beginning of the 2008 election.

    Remember Dobson’s public letter threatening to bolt for a third party if the GOP wasn’t sufficiently pro-life in this election cycle? Remember how NONE of the leading GOP candidates at the time—Giuliani, Thompson, Romney—were up to snuff, for one reason or another?

    Well, after those episodes, I started looking at the pro-life’s electoral clout…and I have to admit, I’m less than impressed.

    2006 mid-term elections:

    I don’t recall any huge effort by the national pro-life movement to save the seats of George Allen and Conrad Burns for the GOP. Result: A Dem Senate Judiciary Committee.

    The pro-life movement needs friendly federal judges. To get friendly federal judges, you need friendly Senators. That’s how our system works. If the pro-life movement really tried to save these Senators…then they failed.

    2008 elections

    1) The Democrats elect Senators in Arkansas and Louisiana—two of the most pro-life states in the country. After 2006′s experience, you would think the national pro-life movement would have gone all out to save these two seats for the GOP. Well, if they tried, they failed. (At the very least, they’d have found a decent candidate to run against Mark Pryor, who ran unopposed in Arkansas!)

    2) Colorado, home to Focus on the Family, now has two D Senators. So does Virginia, home to Liberty University.

    3) Any voter who cared about pro-life issues and paid attention in this election knew that Obama was the most anti-life candidate to run in recent years.

    Those voters also must have known of the warnings from Cardinal Righali (sp?) in Philadelphia, or Archbishop Chaput in Denver, of the importance of voting pro-life in this election:

    RESULT: A sea of blue on the electoral map this year. Soon to be followed by a sea of liberal federal district, circuit court and SCOTUS jurists with lifetime appointments.

    I agree that the GOP must remain a pro-life party. I’m confident it will.

    BUT, the GOP must win elections. It needs a majority of voters to do that.

    The pro-life movement needs to acknowledge that its electoral clout is limited, if not receding.

    After the past two elections, I don’t see where the pro-life movement has the grounds to boss around the greater GOP and conservative movement.

    At the ballot box, the pro-life movement simply isn’t getting it done.

  • Scope

    The GOP standards have all been written long ago. Reagan lived and governed by them. Reagan didn’t go to the middle or the left, he convinced many that those conservative principles and ideas were the correct ones, and he articulated it in a way that was easily understood. Conservatism must uphold all three legs of the stool. Then we will win again in landslides.

    McCain was so not conservative. Everyone knew he was lying when he called himself a conservative. He had no arguments against Obama and the Dims as he had already agreed with the Libs on the sham of Gorebal Warming, his Amnesty plans, his Cap and Trade plans, his votes against Bush’s Tax cuts and he voted for the Bailout. Why vote for Dem Lite when you can vote for the real thing.

    McCain is why we lost the election. It’s funny to see people still trying to figure out why we lost the election.

    We need to judge our R candidates by the already written and wildly successful GOP Manifesto. No one is perfect, but, they need to pass the test with at least a 95%.

    That is what is coming and it can’t come soon eneough.

  • shawng

    Is quite simply this, 2006 and this election, the “centrists” are the ones who took a bath. The only prominent conservative that we have lost by election is Santorum. And it’s quite probable that his support for Specter and moderate issues in his term, plus the general Bush backlash of the election, had more to do with that lost than his conservatism. Meanwhile the RINOs have gotten slaughtered across the country.

    Social issues have not proven to be losers. Abortion is about 50/50. And really depends on the district. But it’s dubious that there are as many single-issue pro-abortion voters as people who will never vote for a pro-abortion candidate. So in that sense, we gain, not lose, voters. “Gay rights” is, if anything, an issue we can make serious inroads on the black and latino communities with. The Black Church is very clear that they consider it a mockery of their efforts to have a lifestyle choice be considered a civil rights issue.

    I think our issue with Latinos has much more to do with our ham-fisted articulation of immigration issues than anything else. I think we have to come up with some way to frame the immigration debate that doesn’t demonize people for wanting to come to this country.

    Let’s be honest on this, practically every citizen of this country is the descendant of an illegal immigrant. And while we can legitimately want to protect our borders in a time of national security threats, we cannot mock the principles that made our nation great. And the willingness to accept the unwanted of other nations is one of those principles.

    We can not have our border be a sluice and still be pro-immigration. What’s more, most Latinos are as conservative socially as any Evangelical, immigration aside. So our SoCon positions actually CAN appeal to that segment, properly articulated.

    And it’s simply nonsense to claim that “no” SoCons come to the defense of Fiscal or Nat’l Sec. conservatives. I’ve posted about the necessity of free trade and low taxes more than once. And I railed on the bailout, which I still consider a complete disaster on every level. Now, there are SoCons who are more liberal fiscally, and some who are more isolationist. Just as there are FisCons who are pro-choice or isolationist.

    And what’s more, I think we need to take this time to really re-think and articulate a consistent Conservative foreign policy in this new era. I don’t want the “Bush Doctrine” of nation building as our foreign policy. Though not waiting for terrorists to kill us is perfectly understandable. The Conservative foreign policy camp right now is a mess. And we really need to sit down and get back to basics on this, IMHO.

  • shawng

    “We cannot have our border be a sluice…

    should be “We can want to not have our border be a sluice…

  • JoeG

    We already kick the leg of fiscal conservatives off of the stool, and we’re losing.

    You argue to kick off another leg, maybe two.

    We argue that we need to keep all three under us.

  • Menlo

    From the polls and studies I’ve seen, young voters seem most likely of all to want bigger government and more help from them. They may be liberalizing on some of the “social issues” with the exception of the right to life. I’m sure you are aware that Ron Paul has taken one of the strongest pro-life positions in Congress. Of course, I find it impossible to see how that would not be perfectly compatible with a libertarian and small government philosophy.

    Anyway, the polls and studies continue to show much of the libertarian philosophy is still extremely unpopular among all age groups, and it does not show any signs of growth.

    However, I think we can all agree that Republicans need to get spending under control. It’s been enough to turn off even fiscal moderates.

  • Menlo

    First off, McCain distinguished himself from many other Republicans on this issue. He was all about welcoming the illegal immigrants and pandering to them. And look what it got him in the election.

    Second, the polls I’ve seen show most of them don’t care much about immigration. This was true even when the debate was going on in Congress. Their priorities line up with most other Democrats. Besides, illegals aren’t the ones voting (depending on the level of fraud).

    Third, haven’t they always gone for Democrats in big numbers? As I said, I think it’s just the “cultural diversity” perception.

  • liberalrepublican

    If you think the tone of the debate was a MAJOR turnoff.

    This is Mel Martinez a Republican Senator:

    “The fact of the matter is that Hispanics are going to be a more and more vibrant part of the electorate, and the Republican Party had better figure out how to talk to them. We had a very dramatic shift between what President Bush was able to do with Hispanic voters, where he won 44 percent of them, and what happened to Senator McCain. Senator McCain did not deserve what he got. He was one of those that valiantly fought, fought for immigration reform, but there were voices within our party, frankly, which if they continue with that kind of rhetoric, anti-Hispanic rhetoric, that so much of it was heard, we’re going to be relegated to minority status. “

  • Martin_A_Knight

    I really find it hard to take anyone who makes the claim that SoCons are to blame for our party’s failure to adhere to fiscal conservative principle seriously.

    Especially when the fact is that SoCons tend to be the FisCons in Congress. The strongest FisCons tend to be strong SoCons as well.

    For all their talk, the “moderates” tend to be the first to break on fiscal (as well as every other) issues because above all and everything they want to be “Bipartisan” with Democrats.

  • Menlo

    It would seem Mel Martinez himself doesn’t get it. He can’t figure out why they didn’t support McCain. What they don’t seem to get is that their concerns mostly fall in line with other voters with an even higher priority on the economy.

    I would add that even the figure Bush got was a minority. What failed to attract Hispanic voters then (and in previous elections) was likely the same thing that failed to attract them to McCain. It was only to a greater degree because Obama and the Democrats were doing better across the board among all groups.

    Talking to people doesn’t tell us a lot. The people around us are hardly ever representative of the population as a whole. Until I see a poll question to verify your assertion, there is little evidence or logic to support it.

  • LJMiller96

    Little l libertarians don’t like the war, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. I don’t see how they can be won back while the US is in a defensive war against a global terrorist Jihad.

  • seattle_ite

    We’re in a defensive war (albeit on a pre-emptive footing), while they see us as the agressors, same as the Dems. Don’t know how we’ll get past that.

  • LJMiller96

    replying to simcard’s complaints

    1. Global Warming is a mockery of itself. It bases radical conclusions on a **computer model** that included a major Y2K bug in it until recently. After the Y2K bug was programmed out it was discovered that the temps since 2000 were not the hottest years on record, but had actually fallen. Given that, conservatives would not care about it, except that the left wants to destroy the US and world economy in order to *fix* the non-existent problem. It will *fix* it alright, but it’s already in a fix and doesn’t need any more fixing.
    2. The preemptive war against Iraq was intended to forestall the terrorist acquisition and use of nuclear weapons. See the AQ Khan network and NORK cooperation with Pakistan, Syria, and Libya for evidence. Bush and his advisors realized that if terrorists used nukes US nuclear doctrine would require massive nuclear retaliation. But on who, if the terrorists attack in secret? Terrorists with nukes could force the US into a world-wide nuclear exchange with the entire Muslim world, plus perhaps a few other nuclear powers. This was inevitable if things didn’t change. Given that, was nation building in Iraq such a bad idea?
    3. Agreed 50%. Spending cuts are needed. Tax rate increases are a bad idea. For one thing, most tax rate increases at the top end will reduce tax revenue. Spending cuts and massive deregulation are necessary. Cut useless federal departments and don’t spend the money anywhere else. I’d start with the Dept of Education.
    4. Coordinating ballot initiatives with the Presidential campaign was a tactic that Rove used. The maverick didn’t. It won elections. I’m not sure why Republicans should reject winning tactics in the future.
    5. Ideas are the reason why I support Gingrich for head of the RNC.

      As for health care, education, and economics.

    6. Health care is expensive. Insurance is a side-effect. The problem is twofold. First there is no marketplace pricing system for covered health care services. Second, tort reform is needed to reduce abusive malpractice suits. Allow people to buy insurance across state lines. Allow individuals to deduct health insurance on their taxes. Allow individuals to join associations to obtain health insurance, decoupling their jobs from their family’s health.
    7. Education is not a federal problem. Repeal the Department of Education and all Federal mandates. Break the NEA and AFTA if needed, the same way that Reagan broke the air traffic controllers. Get schools out from under the thumb of the diversity mafia. Restore the 1st Amendment inside schools.
    8. First, proselytize for laissez faire capitalism, which hasn’t been unfettered in the US since before Teddy Roosevelt. It’s the real radical solution that offers hope and change and a better future to all who are willing to work and save. Socialism/Communism, on the other hand, is the primitive arrangement that cavemen had. Can’t we be more economically advanced than cavemen?

      Second, cut federal spending massively. Does anybody think that Sam Adams and his Boston rebels would not have already revolted against this government that spends 40 cents of every dollar? Repeal civil-rights-destroying legislation like Sarbanes-Oxley, McCain-Feingold, Americans with Disabilities Act, Minimum Wage, No Child Left Behind, and the Endangered Species Act. The actual benefits of some of those acts should be replaced with free market solutions without ham-handed government intervention. Fix Social Security and Medicare funding without raising taxes. Find a way. Drop capital gains and corporate tax rates to zero and make it stick. Drop all tax rates and make them flat.

    Those are some of my ideas. They are conservative. Yet if I back up my ideas with facts they will appeal to reasonable moderates. That is our way forward.

  • LJMiller96

    I think you’re right about the whole evolution debate. It is irrelevant to government. After all, is government planning on evolving something? It’s really a shiny penny that the media brings up to distract conservatives and make them look stupid. Whenever the media brings it up conservatives should just say “that’s a distraction. Let’s talk about issues that matter, like the Fannie Mae recession.”

  • Moe_Lane

    …who got tossed back in January. Ask Jeff why: this one wasn’t one of mine.