I cribbed my title and my tag line from Mike Pence. He used this line in a letter to his colleagues that he posted on Human Events on 9-28-08. It was an eloquent letter explaining why he was not going to saddle our children with our mistakes. You can read it in its entirety here-
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28751&keywords=Duty+is+ours
This diary really isn’t about Mike Pence though. It is about me and the angst I have gone through this election cycle. The angst of “how can this be happening? Is this really my country? Dear God, where are you in all of this? Can’t you see what is happening? Can’t the American people see? Please Lord, help us.” Yeah, that angst. It leaves me with a pit in my stomach, a sense of outrage I haven’t felt in years, and in the quiet of the night, at times, an uncontrollable sobbing mess.
Each day, I get on the net and look for that bright spot. Stupidly, I get encouraged about whitey tapes and API tapes and fake birth certificates. Those feelings pass quickly though as I do not wear a tin-foil hat. And frankly, that is not how I want us to win this election. So I continue to search. Monday, I happened upon a jewel that told me my search has not been in vain. The jewel was written by none other than poll-myth-buster, DJ Drummond. It can be found at his blog, Stolen Thunder.
http://stolenthunder.blogspot.com/2008/10/god-and-election.html
His blog is a worthwhile read on any day, but last Sunday, he wrote a blog for all times. You must read it all. But I’ll give you my favorite pieces.
As a follower of Christ (though again I have to make clear that I am poor at the practice), the first precepts are to not judge the hearts of other people but merely their actions, to walk humbly and seek God’s will in all things, and to count freedom ahead of peace, justice ahead of freedom, and mercy above all of those other ideals.
Words we all know, but so often forget.
And then there is this-…but even so I tell you plainly that America is a nation of believers in truth and light, and they do not hold with attacking ordinary citizens for asking inconvenient questions, they do not approve of a media which literally digs into trash to find tools to use to slime one candidate while ignoring legitimate inquiries into another’s character and actions. They do not forget history and they do not embrace the replacement of family and the individual with the government and the collective. Americans who fear God, do not forget duty. Americans who trust God, do not mock sacrifice. Americans who follow Christ, are not impressed with men who would replace God with their own image. Therefore, when we are presented with a situation where one candidate appears to be clearly in line with God’s will and the other major candidate would oppose that will, we must first test our assumptions, and if they hold true we must stand with the one who follow the Lord’s will.
Lastly from DJ, we are reminded that no matter what the polls say, we must do this-
There will come a day, I believe, when we will stand before the Lord and have to account for all we have done, said, and even thought. It seems to me that it would be far better for me to explain why I supported a man whose actions were aligned with the Lord’s teachings, than why I stood by and deserted him when the campaign became difficult.
I know in the end, that no matter what the results of this election are, I will have stood firm as a Christian. I will have stood firm as an American. And when the day comes and I have to account for my vote, I can stand tall and say that I was on the side of good and did my best to defeat evil. And that I left the rest to the Lord.

5Amen5 C17wife
Andy W. Thursday, October 23rd at 11:43AM EDT (link)n/t
come on 2010 and 2012
Keep up the good work Sam Graves (R, MO-6)
5 -100 fold.
Steph C Thursday, October 23rd at 11:44AM EDT (link)It’s really hard to keep going, keep fighting but there really is no other choice. It’s much better to put our faith in God to guide us in the right direction.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
Really?
GremlinJones Thursday, October 23rd at 11:46AM EDT (link)“And when the day comes and I have to account for my vote, I can stand tall and say that I was on the side of good and did my best to defeat evil.”
Do you really believe that the other side is evil? Truly?
I think both sides want what’s best for America, they just differ greatly on how to go about achieving that.
I'll have
Wayne Thursday, October 23rd at 11:57AM EDT (link)to disagree on your point about the dems wanting what’s best for America. When they tell me they can’t wait to take my money, that’s more than differing greatly on how to go about achieving “what’s best”. The criminal code in my state calls it larceny.
“Hell, these are Marines. Men like them held Guadalcanal, and took Iwo Jima, Baghdad ain’t s–t”. Maj. Gen. John F. Kelly, USMC, Deputy CG, First MEF
Hitler wanted what was best for
Andy W. Thursday, October 23rd at 11:58AM EDT (link)Germany, didn’t he?
come on 2010 and 2012
Keep up the good work Sam Graves (R, MO-6)
Yes, truly.
NightTwister Thursday, October 23rd at 12:00PM EDT (link)You’ve been living in a dream world.
Barack Obama does not want what’s best for America. He wants to recreate America in his own image.
I will call evil, evil. A man that thinks it’s ok to leave a child to die in a pile of soiled linens is evil. I really don’t care if you like that characterization or not.
Get Connected in Colorado.
And there it is
MikeO Thursday, October 23rd at 12:04PM EDT (link)This is how you hide the football. Draw focus to the “differ greatly,” and people not paying complete attention fail to notice the lie of your “best for America” assertion.
I’m on to your game, and I don’t think I’m the only one.
Yes, really. Barack and his minions
c17wife Thursday, October 23rd at 12:05PM EDT (link)are evil. And if by chance they win, they will still be evil. And I will call them that until they prove me otherwise. That is my first amendment right.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
A lot of people are being artfully deceived
kowalski Thursday, October 23rd at 12:05PM EDT (link)A lot of people are being artfully deceived, but those of us who know about Barack Obama’s rise to prominence are not being deceived and we’re not going anywhere, C17.
You need to unburden youself of the people who are easily bamboozled and remember that the people who fully understand who Barack Obama is are here, and will remain here, on your side, come hell or high water.
Even when we get cranky because we haven’t slept well in several weeks.
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Of course they want what's best for America,
janis Thursday, October 23rd at 12:06PM EDT (link)and if they have to beat, steal and lie to accomplish it, well, that’s worth it, right?
The Dems who want what’s best for America are the ones who recognize Obama and his supporters for who and what they are, and they have decided not to go along with that. They are voting for McCain/Palin because they believe that THEY ARE WHAT IS BEST FOR AMERICA!!!!!
What's best for America
Blue_Collar_Muse Thursday, October 23rd at 12:09PM EDT (link)Gremlin,
Would that it was just a matter of two equally valid plans for what to do with our country - sort of a Chinese or Mexican for dinner question.
Unfortunately, it is not.
The ideologies clashing in this election from the far ends of both parties cannot be farther apart. On one hand you have the elevation of the individual, on the other the elevation of the State. On one hand you have individual responsibility, on the other you have State largesse. On the one hand you have Free Market Capitalism, on the other Centrally Planned Socialism.
I could go on.
The point is, that which deflects responsibility and reward from the person in favor of the State is ultimately both ungodly and destructive to both. The results from such an approach to politics are indeed, IMHO, evil.
Blue Collar Muse
Smaller Government! Lower Taxes! Stronger Defense! More Liberty! Complete Transparency!
This is a test.
kowalski Thursday, October 23rd at 12:11PM EDT (link)This is a test of our strength as individuals, as a party, and as a country. It does happen that America is tested from time to time, and I always bet on us.
Obama is pulling a lot of people to his side because of a huge Glitz Gun that was constructed with the help of more than $600 million dollars. It’s a tremendous waste of money on a guy who doesn’t deserve to teach my course in Constituional Law, much less be the President.
The spell will break. It’s just taking a long time because there were a lot of wizards involved in casting it on his behalf. But it will break, and all of us are going to be here when it does.
Defend Liberty — Join the NRA | Live in Massachusetts? Join GOAL.
Wanting the best for America or not...
29Victor Thursday, October 23rd at 12:13PM EDT (link)Leaving babies to die in a soiled utility room is evil.
That’s an easy one.
Appointing judges expressly because you know they won’t judge according to the law, is evil.
Making unjust laws, that favor one people-group over another (i.e. massive taxes on some people to give the money to others) is evil.
Covering up or ignoring the misdeeds of so many Democrat Congressmen is evil.
Using racism and class envy to advance your agenda is evil.
Mocking other because the “cling to their Bible” is evil.
Even beyond the evil of abortion, allowing a child who couldn’t get their ears pierced without a permission slip to get an abortion without her parents even knowing is evil. Forcing all of us to pay for it is even more evil.
Pulling out of Iraq like we did out of Vietnam and letting, perhaps, millions of people die (again) is evil. And, yes, that was Obama’s “16 month” plan 16 months ago.
Trust and obey...
29Victor Thursday, October 23rd at 12:14PM EDT (link)For there’s no other way…
555 Recommended.
Let not your heart be troubled...
olsmithie Thursday, October 23rd at 12:25PM EDT (link)Bear in mind that all arrogant elitists think that they are in charge of worldly events.
They may appear to be in charge for short periods , but then I hear something like “Zogby just discredited the AP 52-42 poll as bogus.”
(paraphrase from Rush)
Zogby knows a bit about polling.
When the rubber mets the road, (Nov. 4) there will be conservatives who had their lip poked out all during the campaign because they didn’t like McCain, that will come out of the woodwork. They may not like Mc, but they love their country and will not let it fail into Marxist hands.
Keep the faith, work like it depends on you, pray like it depends on God, and for goodness sake remember we are told not to worry!
That is exactly what the enemy wants us to to do.
Discouragement is his weapon. It only works if you let it.
Regards
It is mainly due to our adherence to Creator given rights and
Mike gamecock DeVine Thursday, October 23rd at 12:33PM EDT (link)Judeo-Christian principles that America has enjoyed unprecedented prosperity, even enough to secure its Liberty from the usual megalomaniacs that have dominated all of history before us, and to create this tiny window exception in said history for us and others.
Most Christians in the past were persecuted. Most human beings in history struggled everyday to eat.
We are truly blessed, but we are not immune from sufferring. And if we abandon his principles and follow other principles that run contrary to the natural law, we will find there is no incentive for hard work to maintain our excelence.
more later
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
40 million terminated Americans would disagree with you if they could.
Tim_Schieferecke Thursday, October 23rd at 12:36PM EDT (link)n/t
Tim Schieferecke
Hey c17wife.
NightTwister Thursday, October 23rd at 12:45PM EDT (link)I was interviewed today by a freelance writer for the Associated Press. She’s doing an article on “voter anxiety”. I gave her a similar answer to your blog here. I’m not anxious, because I know who’s in charge, but I have a duty and responsibility to be a part of it.
The article should be on the wire early next week.
Get Connected in Colorado.
There's a big difference...
1SGinTN Thursday, October 23rd at 12:48PM EDT (link)between doing what’s best for America; and doing what’s best to stay in power while saying you want what’s best for America. The latter is what I mostly see from Dems.
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
GJ, I realize you wouldn't know...
Jack_Serious Thursday, October 23rd at 1:16PM EDT (link)…evil if it was standing right behind you-in this case, right in front of you, but will you please read the link below and concede that Barack Obama helped to facilitate EVIL?
Kenya: Barack Obama’s Other Change
Graphic by: Dr. Slogan’s Prescriptions
_____________________________________________
The overriding rule for Radical Socialists is that there are no rules (the end justifies the means) while using others’ rules against them.
Bring it!
1SGinTN Thursday, October 23rd at 1:19PM EDT (link)I sense my kind of diary coming.
Tu Ne Cede Malis
-Virgil
Thanks for reminding me
MikeO Thursday, October 23rd at 1:29PM EDT (link)I need to buy a machete.
Gamecock...I intended to spark that commentary on my blog...great point...n/t
Attack Mode Thursday, October 23rd at 1:49PM EDT (link)n/t
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
Vote for God
James_Reynolds Thursday, October 23rd at 1:53PM EDT (link)is what I have been telling people myself. When God gave us freedom to vote for our leaders He expects us to vote for the Godlier man. We face no individual persecution because our vote is private. There, in that booth, we only have our conscience, God’s grace, and our knowledge in Truth that is with us. I pray, as I hope you do, that there is enough strong christians that can put politics aside and bear witness that Christ has risen and set us free, and we can only be put in bondage by our own willingness not to vote by way of the Truth. God condemned Isreal when it’s people became complacent in their time and did not speak up against the evils of the day, and they had no choice in their leader. We have a choice and a voice to be heard. What will become of this nation if our choice is made for personal gain and our voice is silenced out of fear.
vote for God
James_Reynolds Thursday, October 23rd at 1:58PM EDT (link)is what I have been telling people myself. When God gave us freedom to vote for our leaders He expects us to vote for the Godlier man. We face no individual persecution because our vote is private. There, in that booth, we only have our conscience, God’s grace, and our knowledge in Truth that is with us. I pray, as I hope you do, that there is enough strong christians that can put politics aside and bear witness that Christ has risen and set us free, and we can only be put in bondage by our own willingness not to vote by way of the Truth. God condemned Isreal when it’s people became complacent in their time and did not speak up against the evils of the day, and they had no choice in their leader. We have a choice and a voice to be heard. What will become of this nation if our choice is made for personal gain and our voice is silenced out of fear.
Yes, gremlin. Really.
Jack_Savage Thursday, October 23rd at 3:08PM EDT (link)Like c17 said, I can’t judge their hearts, only their actions. And I see evil.
When people like you spend more of your time worried about union thugs, vandals, babies left to die on shelves, and the hateful media than here feigning amazement that we would actually consider those things evil, we’ll talk.
Not until then, though.
Good one as usual c17
Jack_Savage Thursday, October 23rd at 3:10PM EDT (link)I feel better.
My elderly aunt, a strong woman and strong Republican, reminded me that things always turn out for the best, even though sometimes they don’t turn out the way we want them to at the time.
The mantle of freedom is built upon our faith, C17
Marcus_Traianus Thursday, October 23rd at 3:12PM EDT (link)Conservatives ultimately rely on what is best for humanity and our societies proliferation. Indisputably, God has played a central role in the formation of this Republic and her well being. It is therefore not hard to envision how a conservative philosophy with the help of God has preserved our precious country.
Our opposition is the converse and seeks to destroy God and put him out of reach. Whether it is adherence to our Constitution, personal liberty, social mores or the protection of life; they seek to enslave us in government as a means of promoting their personal, destructive vision.
“Change” is the codeword for all that is upon their mantle; free reign over abortion, our income, our speech, our guns, our religion and ultimately our liberty. I can think of nothing more destructive and despicable.
Great diary, C17, shack!
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
Contributor to The Minority Report
minions
I was a retread named Zombie Flanders / randomkid. Thursday, October 23rd at 3:39PM EDT (link)I am a supporter of Obama - does that make me a minion of his and/or evil? I too am trying to do what I think is right…maybe after I die, God will say something to the effect of “wow, your idiocy is mind-blowing…EPIC FAIL” but I will still say that I was trying to do what I thought was right. I don’t usually say that I know for sure what God’s will is on a particular issue, because I don’t claim to know, I don’t think any of us do.*
Anyway, there’s more I disagree with but I’ll leave it at this.
*I mean on things like taxes, not genocide.
My "game"?
GremlinJones Thursday, October 23rd at 3:51PM EDT (link)I’m not playing a game, I asked a question.
And it’s incredible to me that most of the posters here believe that Obama and his supporters are evil. Maybe we have a different understanding of evil. Is evil that guy who zooms through the merge lane only to cut in at the last second? Or Satan incarnate? Or somewhere in between?
My opinion: you are delusional if you think this election is a war of good vs. evil. Both sides sling the mud, both sides have competing ideas, on both sides partisans make outrageous claims and tell outrageous lies.
This diary is one step above that ridiculous “Obama is the anti-christ” e-mail that I keep seeing.
Yeah, Your GAME
MikeO Thursday, October 23rd at 4:15PM EDT (link)No. You tried to characterize the evil designs that your Teleprompter Jesus has on my country as a mere difference of policy preferences.
I called you on that lie.
Evil is as evil does. Evil is subverting the integrity of our elections through massive fraud. Evil is pushing the idea that “spreading the wealth around” is a moral imperative. Evil is the abuse of NLP, passive-aggressive behavior, and other psychopath-tested techniques to build a cult of personality for profit.
And the guy who cuts-in from the merge lane? I always know he’s going to do it because the Obama bumper sticker telegraphs his intent.
This is not a war…yet, but there is plenty of delusion here. Delusion is your ignoring the elephant in the room. Your side, that is the side of evil, makes only outrageous claims and speaks only outrageous lies.
I suppose that from your where you stand, there isn’t enough perspective to understand what evil is.
The comments here have reminded me of the words of the Gipper today.
c17wife Thursday, October 23rd at 4:16PM EDT (link)I had this as my tagline for a while a couple of years back.
To me, it is a very apt quote for what we are now facing in this country.
>
What it boils down to is this. We are in a battle right now between good and evil. Regardless of the outcome of this election, we must not lose our resolve to look evil in the face and call it such. If it offends, so be it. We all know what God thinks about lukewarm.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
The slaughter of 40 plus million inocents is a pretty good indication of the
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 4:20PM EDT (link)good or evil of the other side…and the idea that the golden child supports withholding medical care to survivors of the abortion holocaust in this country says far more about that than anyone can say with words.
spare me the righteous indignation please!
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40 million plus abortions and counting equates to genocide in my book
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 4:27PM EDT (link)you can try to justify it by calling it a blob of tissue…but you came from a blob of tissue yourself…didn’t you?
or did you magically appear from out of the mist like the promised one?
House Conservatives Fund
Michael Williams for Senate
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Amen BCM!!!
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 4:30PM EDT (link)nt
House Conservatives Fund
Michael Williams for Senate
Toomey US Senate
SarahPAC
Ah, I see.
GremlinJones Thursday, October 23rd at 4:32PM EDT (link)So evil, to you, IS that idiot driving the car who cuts you off. Fine. Evil is the cashier who gave you incorrect change. Evil is National Public Radio. Gotcha.
And, full disclosure, I’m NOT voting for Obama in 10 days. So I’m not sure what you mean by my “side”.
Absolutely right Kowalski...
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 4:37PM EDT (link)I remember the jubilation of the press and the people at the advent of the Carter Administration…it didn’t take long for the cracks to appear in the green eye shades…
If this turns out the wrong way…we can at least look forward to the dawn in four years…and I would say the Republican Party has a whole lot of House cleaning to do before the sun breaks through the clouds!
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I don't really wanna get into an abortion thing...
I was a retread named Zombie Flanders / randomkid. Thursday, October 23rd at 4:37PM EDT (link)I don’t believe that a fetus is necessarily a human being…a lot of people disagree for religious reasons but the fact that I don’t practice/believe in, what is to yall, the correct religion make me evil? I came form a blob of tissue…before that I came from a sperm and an egg, but neither of those do I equate with life either.
Nice dodge, psychopath
MikeO Thursday, October 23rd at 4:37PM EDT (link)I know your kind.
On the mone as usual GC
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 4:40PM EDT (link)nt
House Conservatives Fund
Michael Williams for Senate
Toomey US Senate
SarahPAC
Amen sister
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 4:50PM EDT (link)Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
*Rom 8:27 *
Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit [is,] because He makes intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Rom 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose.
May GOD have mercy on our souls and keep his hand of protection over this nation, that “last best hope of mankind on earth”!
House Conservatives Fund
Michael Williams for Senate
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Excellent point, Jack. Your aunt is a very wise
janis Thursday, October 23rd at 4:57PM EDT (link)woman. And that is a point that is very difficult to remember when things are so very dark.
I look at all that has happened since this interminable election began two years ago and marvel at all the things that have come to pass.
Could you EVER have believed that Bill and Hillary would end up being (albeit covertly) on our side? Or that so many of their former supporters would be our close and valued allies? I think that this chain of events has made a huge amount of people re-evaluate their respective parties and determine that many things have to change. That’s a very good thing.
All I know is
ILLINOIS_CONSERV Thursday, October 23rd at 5:01PM EDT (link)I have seen the church where BHO worships. I have also seen the man he calls his spiritual advisor. That man claims to be a Christian. A man of tje cloth. I am Catholic and I have seen many services in several other denominations that also preach Christianity. And yet in all those churches of Christ, I have never seen the hatred, the blasphemy, and the cursing in God’s name that I have seen coming from the church that BHO attended for over 20 years. To have Reverends Wright and Pfleger desecrate a church with their perverse language is perhaps the most un-Godly act I have ever witnessed. As a Catholic I am appalled and embarrassed that Pflefer is STILL a Catholic priest. Cardinal George in Chicago needs to grow a backbone and quit ignoring the acts of a priest that sees nothing wrong with cursing in a church of Christ. C17 I too worry late at night about the future of this country. God hears our prayers and we must trust that he knows what is best for us. Keep praying and VOTE!
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Take a science lesson.
Menlo Thursday, October 23rd at 5:01PM EDT (link)It’s got nothing to do with religion. It’s basic biology that defines a new distinct whole living human organism at fertilization. Not before, not after. People who can’t understand that need to go back to high school (or earlier) and repeat their biology courses.
That said, life must be protected because it is human, not because it is a certain size, looks a certain way, or is dependent on someone else.
But if that isn’t good enough for you, I suppose you don’t mind someone who supports the murder of born alive infants (and then lies about it).
Call it “disagreement” if it makes you feel better, but support for such a thing or even overlooking it IS evil; and I say that as seriously as possible.
“Guess which party these big insurance companies favor? Big companies love big government.” -Ann Coulter
Yes.
bs Thursday, October 23rd at 5:13PM EDT (link)Obama is evil. I said this months ago, when people barely knew who he was, and interestingly, many people here poo poo’d it (I wish I could find my post in the archives…). Now that the rest of the story on Obama has finally come out, most of my colleagues have come to the same conclusion. Most of my opinion back then was based on his bloodthirsty position on abortion. That was just the tip of the iceberg. But you know, I’m not surprised. Supporters of infanticide generally have other character flaws as well.
Decorum is fo’ suckas
do you believe
2BlueStar Mom Thursday, October 23rd at 5:14PM EDT (link)god is our creator?
If you did, you would know, that he knew you, before you, were formed in your mothers womb.
Unless you were a test tube baby, even then, he created the knowledge in that guy, who put you there.
http://havestethoscopewilltravel.blogspot.com
Minions was the correct word to use here. Minions...
nogyro35 Thursday, October 23rd at 5:20PM EDT (link)…is “a term for favourites or protégés, especially those of a monarch or prince at a royal court. Unlike a henchman or lackey… is more of a companion and confidant to him than a servant or bodyguard.” — Wikapedia.
In today’s society minions can have a more negative meaning and I agree that it fits here. Today, the word can be used to describe enablers, propagandists, converts and even constitutional lawyers.
Obama’s minions are making the Rajin’ Cajun look tame. They are willing to cross any line, look into anyone’s background, and support both sides of every policy. They seek power not just for Obama but for themselves and their failed predecessors. Many are radical. Some are terrorists.
No matter what you think of McCain’s candidacy, it is an undeniable fact that Obama and his minions rhetoric has purposefully inflamed quite a bit of its base.
Which has lead us to numerous acts (not just words) of violence (hate crimes?) against Republicans.
wright, wrong, wolf in sheeps clothing
2BlueStar Mom Thursday, October 23rd at 5:21PM EDT (link)Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
http://havestethoscopewilltravel.blogspot.com
more abortion (and then dinner so I wont be around)
I was a retread named Zombie Flanders / randomkid. Thursday, October 23rd at 5:22PM EDT (link)There’s two definitions of a human…some sort of biological one sure, but also some (for lack of a better word) metaphysical one…
So we all agree humans deserve protection from murder. Why is that, and that is not true of other animals? It is because humans have a soul, consciousness, personality, etc. Does a fetus, immediately after conception, have a soul? What about that other stuff, and what about other stages?
Say that a fetus is an organism…I will take your word for it. But then one asks, what is an organism? The definition isn’t really what compels us to protect human life. There’s a difference between the scientific and moral definition…
Weren't you a fetus?
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 5:30PM EDT (link)if you had been aborted as a fetus…where would you be right no…would it have been a blob of tissue that was carved from your mothers womb…or would it have been YOU?
It’s not just a religious question…it’s life or death!
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NO! He wanted power
David Hinz Thursday, October 23rd at 5:32PM EDT (link)His vision had HIM in power…what was best for the people was secondary.
Hmmm, sounds familiar. Seems as though thugs throughout history have craved power BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
The Minority Report — The HinzSight Report — TMRB.tv — MFOB “Miss Tagart, do you know the hallmark of the second-rater? It’s resentment of another man’s achievement.”
That won't work Ace
MikeO Thursday, October 23rd at 5:37PM EDT (link)His kind believes in slamming the door behind themselves.
yeah...it's hard to reason with the unreasonable...
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 5:55PM EDT (link)“Contend not with a fool lest he hate you”
But maybe his eyes will be opened…I was pro choice once in my ignorance. most here who read my diaries are stunned when OI tell them I was a died in the wool lefty once upon a time.
I was stationed in England and was watching the BBC and they were debating Abortion…There was a man there and he held up a poster board with a sonogram of his son, or grandson followed by pictures of the child at different ages…he started with the picture of the child at 3 years old and asked…”is it murder if I kill the child here?” then went to thye picture when he was 1…”or here?”…then to a picture when the child was a couple days old…”or here?”…then he got to the sonogram…”this is the same child..no he isn’t fully formed, no he hasn’t taken his first breath yet…but if he is killed here…the rest of his life that these other pictures represent would be snuffed out as surely as if he had be killed at 2 days old, i year, or three years!
That simple illustration began my journy to being a died in the wool member of the vast right wing conspiracy…and ultimately a born again Christian…I’d love to meat that man some day!
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Odd, isn't it?
MikeO Thursday, October 23rd at 6:12PM EDT (link)It’s odd how having the truth suddenly “click” changes everything.
I used to be mushy on abortion, myself, despite Roman Catholic upbringing, because I don’t have ovaries. While listening to an evangelical (non-Catholic) debate Darwinism with a secularist in the back of an M113 in the field, the concept of “life” dawned on me very suddenly. I remember it as though it was yesterday.
Cathartic moments are glorious revelations of the creator himself!
AceInTX Thursday, October 23rd at 6:21PM EDT (link)nt
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2006, if you don't really know when a fetus
janis Thursday, October 23rd at 6:33PM EDT (link)becomes imbued with an eternal soul, then why would you not err on the side of caution?
For those of us who are against abortion, that question is already answered. When conception occurs, a human being exists.
If it were proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt, would you be so casual with taking that life?
This is nothing but sophistry
Dave_in_Fla Thursday, October 23rd at 6:45PM EDT (link)Infantcide is killing a life, no matter how much you want to try to use metaphysical arguments to assuage your guilt on the topic.
If I rip open the stomach of a pregnant Golden Retriever, and slaughter all of the puppies, I might not go to jail, but I bet $100 that you would be appalled.
But when we are discussing a baby, suddenly you become philosophical.
Abortion results in the death of a child. No intellectually honest person can argue that.
Don’t blame me for thinking that the pushers of murdering children because they are inconvenient are evil. The same way when I was a kid walking through the woods and found cats hung from a tree, I knew I was staring evil in the face.
“If they were merely incompetent, then at least SOME of their actions would have been to the benefit of the country.” - Joe McCarthy
Not a valid argument.
Menlo Thursday, October 23rd at 7:23PM EDT (link)Current states of “consiousness” and “personality” and a “soul” are not only not measurable but are not necessary criteria for protecting life, nor should they be. We certainly protect those without consciousness capable of gaining it or those whose consciousness is unknown.
There is not a “moral definition” (metaphorical perhaps, but that is inapproprtiate in this discussion). There is however a moral principle as to protecting and valuing life and in not torturing it. Morals are expressed in principles not though alternative definitions.
In any event the protection of human life cannot be allowed to be subject to individual opinions or beliefs. Otherwise no one incapable of defending himself can be protected. In order to protect anyone, there MUST be a clear objective standard for everyone as to who is protected. Such a standard does not exist with Obama (”above his pay grade”). With him, even newborn infants should be protected from murder. But even birth doesn’t change anything but physical location and condition of dependency.
“Guess which party these big insurance companies favor? Big companies love big government.” -Ann Coulter
Have to comment here
HoosierLife Thursday, October 23rd at 8:30PM EDT (link)To MikeO
Now first the idea of “spreading the wealth. When I read the bible it tells me to help the poor and needy and stresses it is moral to do so. So if I give my money that I worked hard for it makes me what? Evil?
Now you probably going to say you mean government doing so, but the way you put it makes you look a bit nuts. I personally don’t think my religion would say that is evil, but that is my religion.
Next this “massive fraud” argument is just a way for people to feel sorry for themselves. You prove to me that Jimmy Johns voted and I will side with you. You sound like the Democrats after 2004 saying it was stolen again. If McCain loses it is because he ran a horrible campaign, which he has.
I have been coming to this site for years now and I must say people need to get a grip sometimes. In 2004 I had a Democratic friend saying to me that it is all over for the Democrats and it will be hard for him to get a job in the party. 2006 roles around and he probably has no trouble finding jobs. Point is that in 2, 4, or 6 years down the road Republicans will probably regain many of the Senate seats they lost and will probably win back control.
To my friends here I leave here saying something very simple.
GET A GRIP. Most likely in 13 days you will wake up to the fact that a Democrat has won the White House (sorry but when Indiana is close Republicans have a lot of problems). You will probably have to deal with a few Supreme Court appointments that go against you and others but like people here have said before ELECTIONS MATTER. McCain has run a horrible campaign. I hated the pick of Palin for the simple reason that it destroyed the one message he was running on that was working, experience. His “suspension” of his campaign looked more like a political stunt, and he couldn’t even come up with a decent theme.
In 2006 I warned everyone here that Republicans would probably lose house and maybe Senate and no one believed me. 2008 will be much worse and the reason can be seen on this site.
I use to love coming to this site and discussing illegal immigration, tax reform, economics, social policy, and so on. I personally can’t remember the last time I saw a real discussion over those topics. The only thing I see on this site anymore is why Obama is a Muslim/Arab/Terrorist/Communist. If Republicans want to win they need to express their ideas through thoughtful argument not attack ads. Hopefully after the election this site can get back to debating the topics I use to love reading about.
———————————————–
Notice to All - I am an independent who has voted for Senator Bayh (Democrat) and Senator Lugar (Republican) along with over 60% of my state. You may take what I say with a grain of salt at your own party’s risk.
Wrong.
MikeO Thursday, October 23rd at 8:54PM EDT (link)The rest of your sophomoric rant aside, ACORN has been caught submitting false voter registrations. These fraudulent registrations leave open the possibility of fraudulent votes. ACORN is funded with federal dollars. Senator Obama is of ACORN.
This is not a gateway into “feeling sorry” for myself. This is my valid question of whether the safety valve of our “baked-in” revolutions on two-year, four-year, and six-year cycles that make peaceful transition of power possible has been subverted. It’s as simple as that.
Come 5 November, there will be a result. It is up to each and every one of us to read this result and decide whether the result is acceptable.
I am ready not to accept an unacceptable result and to thwart others’ forcing an unacceptable result onto me if that is my read.
Awesome, as always, c17
eburke Thursday, October 23rd at 9:06PM EDT (link)*I, too, read DJ’s blog and found so much strength in it.
Every night while lying in bed fervently praying that the Lord continue to hold His protecting hand over our land even though as a country we have turned our back on him in so many ways, I remember passages memorized as a youth.
“My ways are not your ways, says the Lord”
“For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord. Plans to prosper you and not to harm you; plans to give you hope and a future”
“The Lord chastens those he loves.”
We are refined by fire, and IF Obama wins and is the antithesis of all that made this country great, as we all fear, we will need to remember that God is in control, and that He works all things for our good whether we see it or not, or whether He defines ‘good’ as might desire him to. Until then, we do our duty, and leave the results to Him.
Thanks again for your passion and love of country. God bless you!
“All that need be done for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
“Dead fish go with the flow” ~ izoneguy
“We have a Statue of Liberty not a Statue of Necessity” ~ ColdWarrior
Please, the bible talks about charity
dbecraft Thursday, October 23rd at 9:10PM EDT (link)and helping those not so fortunate, not forced giving by the government. You ought to know better than that.
Formally known as Deagle… “Golf is a way of life…”
*sigh*
HoosierLife Thursday, October 23rd at 10:08PM EDT (link)I understand you didn’t read what I had to actually say but found something nice and convinent to pick at. Yes I know but the idea of “spreading the wealth” itself is not evil. I would hope you would read my post in full because that was more of a small snippit.
Now back to the voter fraud thing. Again just because people go in the phone book and grab people at random and register doesn’t mean they will show up multiple times to vote, nor does it mean make believe people will show up too. In Indiana you are required to show a photo ID explain to me how Jimmy Johns will vote? Please I beg you.
I understand people get a little upset when they are losing, but to be honest Republicans have brought this upon themselves. After 2006 I hoped they would of gotten the message and develop an actual platform, they didn’t.
IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR PERSON X YOU MUST GIVE THEM REASON
and no ACORN is not a reason it is something to waste your time until the ship sinks
———————————————–
Notice to All - I am an independent who has voted for Senator Bayh (Democrat) and Senator Lugar (Republican) along with over 60% of my state. You may take what I say with a grain of salt at your own party’s risk.
I call moby. Get lost. nt
Vegas_Rick Thursday, October 23rd at 11:05PM EDT (link)nt
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.
You narrow minded dips@@t
Vegas_Rick Thursday, October 23rd at 11:12PM EDT (link)Why must one be religious to view a fetus as human life?
Granted the reverse assumption is almost certainly true. That only an agnostic could call murdering an unborn child “health care.”
While I am a God fearing American, my faith is NOT the reason I call it murder.
Why must you people track mud into our house?
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.
It's INDIVIDUAL CHARITY that the Bible teaches.
Tim_Schieferecke Thursday, October 23rd at 11:13PM EDT (link)It doesn’t say Thou shalt create a repressive tax structure based on fairness instead of basic needs. You shalt pay higher and higher taxes or my angels of the tax code will kick down your doors and scare your dog. Dude, I think you tied your ass to a tree and walked 5 miles to Stalingrad.
Tim Schieferecke
HoosierLife? He's no moby
Neil Stevens Thursday, October 23rd at 11:17PM EDT (link)His sig with his snippy tone avert any dishonesty.
Want to run for conservatives? Give.
There Is No Crisis
So, do you believe you have a soul?
Tim_Schieferecke Thursday, October 23rd at 11:21PM EDT (link)I believe you do, and you had one from the second you were conceived. It’s too bad you don’t have a more favorable opinion of yourself.
Tim Schieferecke
In a word, yes.
mbecker908 Thursday, October 23rd at 11:33PM EDT (link)Hitler tried to do what he thought was right. So did Stalin. So did Pol Pot. And people supported who thought they were doing the right thing supported them (including the New York Times).
So, yes, support Obama and you are evil. You are also the enemy of the America envisioned by the founding fathers.
Spit.
*Hangs Head*
HoosierLife Friday, October 24th at 6:24AM EDT (link)sigh
Why even do I bother writing stuff if people refuse to read. Please read my post again then go down to some of the comments on my post and read them.
———————————————–
Notice to All - I am an independent who has voted for Senator Bayh (Democrat) and Senator Lugar (Republican) along with over 60% of my state. You may take what I say with a grain of salt at your own party’s risk.
I don't believe you mean what you say
Gengisdon Friday, October 24th at 8:35AM EDT (link)I don’t post around here much anymore, but I still read RedState regularly. Even though I think differently than most of the regulars around here, I’ve found for the most part there is a lot of passion for this country, and even where we disagree, far better to be passionate than indifferent. I’ve certainly learned how to better respect differences.
I suppose by your definition of minion, C17wife, I am one. I have given money to Obama. I have a bumpersticker. I’ve done some out-of-state volunteering. Now, am I evil? Really? Can I not stand as a Christian and an American and support Obama? I’m a prosecutor. I deal with evil people who steal, people who hurt others, people who are only out for themselves. I’ve seen folks I think are truly evil. Am I in the same category?
Language matters. I can handle if you think I’m dead flat wrong. I’m not going to whine about being called an elitist, or a socialist, or whatever the nom de jure conservatives have for me on any given day. I’ll tell you you’re wrong, and we’ll move on. Being called evil, on the other hand, leaves no room for simply agreeing to disagreeing, and elevates the disagreement into something much harder to resolve. I don’t know about you, but when I fight against evil, rather than wrong, I don’t seek to change hearts and minds, or reach compromise, I seek to smite. Maybe that’s what you want to see out of society, but I think that would be a tragedy.
Some of the language in this post, not by the original poster, particularly as it refers to genocide or holocaust, is even worse. I don’t think you mean what you say. Because quite frankly, if I thought the United States was participating in either of those two things, I would not simply blog to complain about it. Those words can justify violence. I don’t think anyone here wants to do that.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
I don't believe you mean what you say
Gengisdon Friday, October 24th at 8:35AM EDT (link)I don’t post around here much anymore, but I still read RedState regularly. Even though I think differently than most of the regulars around here, I’ve found for the most part there is a lot of passion for this country, and even where we disagree, far better to be passionate than indifferent. I’ve certainly learned how to better respect differences.
I suppose by your definition of minion, C17wife, I am one. I have given money to Obama. I have a bumpersticker. I’ve done some out-of-state volunteering. Now, am I evil? Really? Can I not stand as a Christian and an American and support Obama? I’m a prosecutor. I deal with evil people who steal, people who hurt others, people who are only out for themselves. I’ve seen folks I think are truly evil. Am I in the same category?
Language matters. I can handle if you think I’m dead flat wrong. I’m not going to whine about being called an elitist, or a socialist, or whatever the nom de jure conservatives have for me on any given day. I’ll tell you you’re wrong, and we’ll move on. Being called evil, on the other hand, leaves no room for simply agreeing to disagreeing, and elevates the disagreement into something much harder to resolve. I don’t know about you, but when I fight against evil, rather than wrong, I don’t seek to change hearts and minds, or reach compromise, I seek to smite. Maybe that’s what you want to see out of society, but I think that would be a tragedy.
Some of the language in this post, not by the original poster, particularly as it refers to genocide or holocaust, is even worse. I don’t think you mean what you say. Because quite frankly, if I thought the United States was participating in either of those two things, I would not simply blog to complain about it. Those words can justify violence. I don’t think anyone here wants to do that.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
An Ode to Lucifer
cookcountyconservative Friday, October 24th at 8:46AM EDT (link)“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins — or which is which), the very first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.”
Saul Aulinsky, Rules For Radicals
Barack Obama’s = Guide to Community Organizing
You should also take a look at Bill Ayer’s manifesto, Prairie Fire, which can be found here http://www.zombietime.com/prairie_fire/. Here is a taste:
“We need a revolutionary communist party in order to lead the struggle, give coherence and direction to fight, seize power and build the new society.”
And this,
“Revolutionary war will be complicated and protracted. It includes mass struggle and clandestine struggle, peaceful and violent, political and economic, cultural and military, where all forms are developed in harmony with the armed struggle. Without mass struggle there will be no revolution. Without armed struggle there can be no victory.”
Evil - as plain as the nose on your face. But hey, can’t we all just get along?
Yes, Gremlin, the other side is evil
E Pluribus Unum Friday, October 24th at 9:28AM EDT (link)Is that even a question? Are you for real?
Just a few quick examples that illustrate how the other side is utterly evil:
Like I said, this is just a sampler. I could go on for pages. And you know what? These are not zealous screeches. If you or anybody else wants to debate any single point of this, just bring it on.
Carthago delenda est
Sorry to disappoint Gengis, but my words
c17wife Friday, October 24th at 9:39AM EDT (link)are right on.
I do believe that if you are supporting Barack, you are supporting the work of evil. Your words define that which I and many others believe Barack to be.
If you can not look around at the havoc that is wrought by him, his associates and your party, then as Jeff Probst would say, I got nothing for you.
And I really don’t care if you are offended. I’m over the “new tone”.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
ACORN
MikeO Friday, October 24th at 9:49AM EDT (link)First off, that passive-aggressive little “Now you [sic] probably going to say you mean government doing…” does not take that argument off the table. Including that does not magically inoculate you from having to make the argument that equates forcible taking to charitable giving. Your Teleprompter Jesus has found millions of followers willing to eat those kinds of jedi mind tricks. I’m not one of them.
The ACORN problem is this: If the election is close, and it looks like voting fraud put Obama/Biden over the top, then there is no reason for me to accept the outcome.
I defer, for now, determination of what non-acceptance means.
Mike O, don't forget to....
Jack_Serious Friday, October 24th at 9:53AM EDT (link)…register that machete with the state–you’ll need a license too.
_____________________________________________
The overriding rule for Radical Socialists is that there are no rules (the end justifies the means) while using others’ rules against them.
55555 -excellent points, all.
E Pluribus Unum Friday, October 24th at 9:54AM EDT (link)–nt
Carthago delenda est
Both sides want power to impliment their policies.
Vaughn Harold Friday, October 24th at 9:56AM EDT (link)Evil does not exists in a paticular political party, it exists within mankind. The policies that a person supports reveals their intentions. The ignorance of this truth is profound in your statement that “both sides want to do what’s best for the country”.
Ehh
MikeO Friday, October 24th at 10:00AM EDT (link)I might just make one.
I’ve been looking for an excuse to buy an angle grinder, and I actually have a couple of leaf springs I found in the garage from the previous owner of this house.
C17, you've been in my brain!
southernmom Friday, October 24th at 10:10AM EDT (link)You took my thoughts/anxieties/fears and put them into words. Thank you for your courage, faith and patriotism. You truly are a blessing.
When I read the last post from gengisdon, I immediately thought of this verse:
Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
And also this:
Job 17:12 They make night into day, saying, ‘The light is near,’ in the presence of darkness.
I saw a beautiful video first thing this morning and it was on a RS diary. I hope it’s distributed far and wide, and not just to like-minded folks.
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/jaded/2008/oct/24/one-man-gave-his-life-for-christians-and-now/
God have mercy on us if we elect a man who actively supports the genocide called abortion.
Trust me - she means it
E Pluribus Unum Friday, October 24th at 10:12AM EDT (link)And I mean it too. Gengisdon, you have a long and storied history with us, and you have done yourself great credit over the years with thoughtful and intelligent commentary and defense of your side.
I do not say that you are evil. But it is nonsensical for us or you to deny that the cause you support, the left-wing Democratic Party, is evil.
It is intensely, deeply, rooted in evil. In class warfare, in infanticide, in the suppression of all things Christian, in the deliberate subversion of the Constitution, in acting deliberately to cause soldier deaths in a war that was justly and legally fought.
In the media’s CONSTANT talking down the economy (and yes, the media is absolutely a huge part of the leftist movement) — can you deny that media coverage has been a major part of the oil-price hike, and the stock market panic?
The use of Fannie and Freddie to destroy the housing market and trigger the current global finance crisis — all for personal gain by Democrat politicians.
Evil? Oh yeah. And you, as an intelligent Democrat (a rarer breed all the time) — it doesn’t make you evil, but it does make you complicit. Just like Neville Chamberlain, you did not DO it, but your support helped.
Find your happy place however you want to, Gengisdon. But point the finger of blame in some other direction than conservatives who are calling the evil party evil.
Carthago delenda est
5^ EPU. You said it very well and so has c17wife.
janis Friday, October 24th at 10:19AM EDT (link)It escapes me completely that intelligent people cannot see what is right under their noses with this man and his corrupt campaign. The only thing I can think is that because the MSM refuses to report on all the outrageous things that The One has done in his past–and is doing right now–his otherwise honest supporters refuse to believe that any of these things are true, that they are just things that our side is making up out of whole cloth.
Either that or they are so enamored of having the opportunity of voting for a biracial candidate that they can see nothing else.
C17, I refer you to Habakkuk 2:3
E Pluribus Unum Friday, October 24th at 10:29AM EDT (link)Habakkuk [a great book, and I plan to tell him that personally in due time] he bemoaned the fact that the Assyrians - just some suck-butt, lowlife, evil people — were conquering and dominating everybody in the region. He asked, why do the wicked prosper? He said that he would sit on the city wall and await God’s answer. God’s answer:
I struggle with this too, C. Why do the Dems and the media practice such evil with such arrogance and impunity, while the righteous are trampled under their feet? All I can say is what God said to Habakkuk : the time is coming when justice is executed.
So even if we lose big in 08 (the right condidate would have helped), and even if they get 3 new scotus judges that move the overturn of Roe v Wade back another 30 years, even if the US accelerates its descent down the toilet bowl of socialism and the overthrow of family values and Christianity - there is yet a faithful remnant - a quite sizable faithful remnant — and God will in His own time bring about salvation for the nation.
This I know to be true.
Carthago delenda est
I don't think anyone said you had to be religious to be pro life...
AceInTX Friday, October 24th at 10:47AM EDT (link)and since when is it that two people sharing their faith became tracking mud into your house? no one was talking to you so why do you take offense?
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I hear you, EPU. I just hate what is
c17wife Friday, October 24th at 10:54AM EDT (link)coming for my kids.
As parents, we work to provide for them. Our soldiers fight and die to protect them. And then it all seems to go for naught.
So, instead of being bitter, I’ll just cling to my God and know that in the end, He has the final say. It is the only thing that keeps me even remotely sane these days.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
Hey aceintx your point is exact I am not....
JadedByPolitics Friday, October 24th at 10:56AM EDT (link)religious but I believe in LIFE….heck I love my life and if my mother had aborted me I wouldn’t be chatting with you right now…..it would appear that only those who are ALIVE and LIBERAL feel they were worthy of the RIGHT TO LIFE! HYPOCRITES!
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
How can you not consider this evil?
Elizabeth Friday, October 24th at 11:02AM EDT (link)Gengisdon, if you truly are a Christian, then please read the article “Obama’s Abortion Extremism” by Robert George. Can you truly tell me you see no evil there?
You say you deal with people who you do describe as evil, “people who steal, people who hurt others, people who are only out for themselves”. Do you not realize that this describes precisely the sort of people Obama has spent most of his life associating and working with? What are the Rezkos and Franks and Dodds and Raines and Johnsons of this world if not people who steal? What are the Davis’s and Ayers and Dohrnes and Odingas of this world if not people who hurt others? And what can you say about the people in ACORN and the DNC and the media who are willing to suspend every ounce of their personal integrity and responsibility to fairness in order to advance their own cause if not that they are people who are only out for themselves?
For all the accusations about McCain running a negative campaign and how mean Republicans are, was it pro-Democrat or pro-Republican forces that chose to drag Sarah Palin’s family through the mud? That chose to accuse her husband of incest? That accused her of not being the mother of her own child? Whose supporters, after years of complaining about supposed (non-existent) infringements of their personal privacy illegally hacked into her email account and published the contents all over the web? Whose supporters physically intimidated elderly supporters of Hillary Clinton at numerous caucuses? Whose supporters engaged in fraud and vote stealing at those same caucuses? Whose supporters threw acid and spat upon RNC delegates? Whose supporters physically attacked a bus containing delegates? Whose supporters have been caught committing voter registration fraud in over fourteen states? Whose supporters have shot up people’s homes, stolen their campaign signs (and on one occasion struck an elderly woman in the face with the wood stick it was mounted on), firebombed other people’s campaign signs, and just two days ago carved a “B” into the face of a young campaign volunteer? Which side has threatened outbreaks of violence all over the country if they should lose the election?
Which side is it that has coordinated volunteers to flood radio stations with calls and emails to prevent a journalist from exposing the results of his research into Obama’s past? Which campaign has failed to publish medical records, school records, or any other records which might provide some insight into their candidate’s past? Which campaign has tried to enlist the Department of Justice to shut down political advertising they didn’t like? Which side has used state government officials to threaten prosecution against people legally engaging in their freedom to speak out? Which side had police officers accost and hassle a reporter standing on a public sidewalk seeking to investigate a campaign meeting?
Yet these are precisely the people whom you have chosen to support and to ally yourself with. It is by your stated intention to vote for Obama that the even greater evil that these people intend to commit in the future will be enabled. How can we not call that evil?
“‘You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,’ said Aslan. ‘And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.’” — C.S. Lewis’ “Prince Caspian”
Would you call attacking McCain Supporters
AceInTX Friday, October 24th at 11:07AM EDT (link)and carving things in their face Evil?
Or shooting up someone’s house?
Or vandalizing campaign locations?
or talking about race riots if Obama loses?
What about calling any opposition to obama and any derogatory comment about him Racist?
What about the fairness doctrine?
What about trying to shut down radio stations who have investigative journalists who are critical of Obama?
What of the systematic slaughter if 40 million children since 1973?
What about the indoctrination of our children with thoughts and ideas in direct opposition to parents wishes by our state monopolized school system?
What about calling Republicans and Conservatives Nazis, Fascists, etc?
What about setting out to deliberately call into question our electoral process and to subvert our GOD given right to choose our leaders by registering illegal aliens, and casting multiple ballots?
Spare me you mock outrage please! It is what it is…one party in this country
House Conservatives Fund
Michael Williams for Senate
Toomey US Senate
SarahPAC
Let us cling together to the truth...
southernmom Friday, October 24th at 11:09AM EDT (link)TOP 10 PREDICTIONS NO MATTER WHO WINS THE ELECTION
The Bible will still have all the answers.
Prayer will still work.
The Holy Spirit will still move.
God will still inhabit the praises of His people.
There will still be God-anointed teaching and healing.
There will still be singing of praise to God.
God will still pour out blessings upon His people.
There will still be room at the Cross.
Jesus will still love you.
Jesus will still save the lost.
ISN’T IT GREAT TO KNOW WHO IS REALLY IN CONTROL?!
PEACE TO YOU ALWAYS!
Habakkuk is a great book
ZootSuit Friday, October 24th at 11:10AM EDT (link)As is all of the Bible.
If you read the entire book, it is clear why G-d said He would allow the Chaldeans (not the Assyrians but that’s a minor point) to conquer and enslave the Israelites (or more specifically, the southern Kingdom of Judah; by this time the northern Kingdom of Israel had already been conquered by the Assyrians). The reason was because in the days of their freedom and ascendancy, they had not fulfilled their purpose and had departed form G-d.
While I most definitely do NOT think the Republicans or any political party is “G-d’s party” — and think all those who argue otherwise are very stupid and dangerous at best and blasphemous at worse — I do think there is an analogy here.
The Republican Party has not lived up to it’s billing and stood by its principles. For one thing, the party of “small government” has presided over the largest increase in the size and scope of government since FDR. And what has the conservative rank-and-file done during this time?
For the most part, denied it, applauded it and supported it. All while defended our actions with the cry, “But the other guys are worse.”
Interestingly enough, that was Habakkuk’s reaction when he was told that Judah would be enslaved by the Chaldeans: essentially arguing that, “Yes, Judah has sinned but the Chaldeans are worse.”
The reply given to him was basically, “True, the Chaldeans evil but Judah has been unfaithful. Therefore, the Chaldeans will be used to punish them.”
Sorry for the “theological” discussion and, of course, everyone is entitled to disagree with me. But although I disagree somewhat with her exegeses, I think EPU makes an interestingly analogy.
This election could be the punishment conservatives must suffer for being unfaithful to conservative principles; and not even for being unfaithful to the “social issues.”
And you know what, I agree with that!
***** Unrepentant African-American nationalist, Unapologetic African-American conservative!
Amen.
Elizabeth Friday, October 24th at 11:13AM EDT (link)I’m with you. Even more than worrying about my own future, it’s my anxieties about what kind of a country my children will grow up in that keeps me awake at night. Thanks for this post, it has been a real encouragement.
“‘You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,’ said Aslan. ‘And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.’” — C.S. Lewis’ “Prince Caspian”
Well said EPU
AceInTX Friday, October 24th at 11:15AM EDT (link)nt
House Conservatives Fund
Michael Williams for Senate
Toomey US Senate
SarahPAC
Great post!
GremlinJones Friday, October 24th at 11:17AM EDT (link)I agree, you make some very good, well-reasoned points.
Go look at some pictures of aborted babies
Tim_Schieferecke Friday, October 24th at 11:21AM EDT (link)and then tell me that it isn’t evil. I bet you never have. Test yourself and see if it doesn’t stir your soul. If it doesn’t, I pray someday it will. Supporting Obama in the continuation of this American Holocaust (40 million +) is EVIL.
Tim Schieferecke
Zoot
E Pluribus Unum Friday, October 24th at 11:24AM EDT (link)Man, I am glad you have re-emerged!
Although in the main you and I are not in the same camp politically (well, we’re both on the correct side of the Big Ditch, but in different sub-crowds), this is a superb synopsis.
Some points:
Good show all around, Zootsuit, and I’m glad you are back.
Carthago delenda est
I'm with you 100%
AceInTX Friday, October 24th at 11:28AM EDT (link)nt
House Conservatives Fund
Michael Williams for Senate
Toomey US Senate
SarahPAC
Wel said Jaded
AceInTX Friday, October 24th at 11:31AM EDT (link)nt
House Conservatives Fund
Michael Williams for Senate
Toomey US Senate
SarahPAC
Thinking Like This...
GreenAces Friday, October 24th at 11:37AM EDT (link)“So, yes, support Obama and you are evil. You are also the enemy of the America envisioned by the founding fathers.”
…is exactly what is going to cost John McCain the White House.
Hasn’t the backlash to Michelle Bachmann and Mr. Hayes taught you ANYTHING? How did that work out for them, anyway?
Labeling Democrats “evil” and “anti-american” used to be an effective bludgeon. That doesn’t work anymore. The sooner the Republican party learns this lesson, the sooner they will start their journey back from the political wilderness.
But I am glad that you recognize that the outcome belongs to God. That way, I know we can count on you supporting the next administration. After all, God works in mysterious ways. Right?
So why does the left use this...
Aaron Weatherford Friday, October 24th at 11:42AM EDT (link)It is their bread and butter… Evil republicans want to take away your entitlements, choice, child’s education, etc…
“My friends, it is coming to my attention that a great number of you are fearful of an Obama win. I must stress that you have nothing to fear from Obama winning the election as I have the greatest confidence he would be a most benevolent dictator.” - Hopefully John McCain
For what it's worth
GreenAces Friday, October 24th at 11:56AM EDT (link)I don’t endorse characterizing those with different political beliefs as “evil”, be they Independent, Democrat, or Republican.
It short-circuits all rational discussion.
But you'll eagerly vote for the people doing the short-circuiting.
Moe Lane Friday, October 24th at 12:04PM EDT (link)So you’ll understand if we don’t really care if you’re personally a swell guy to know.
Check out my new blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (blogging-related) wish list.
Interesting comment
GreenAces Friday, October 24th at 12:11PM EDT (link)on a thread devoted to characterizing Democrats as evil god-hatin’ baby-killin’ terrorist lovin’ bad folks.
Interesting word choice
MikeO Friday, October 24th at 12:17PM EDT (link)“Characterizing?”
Or, maybe not so interesting since I guess I could characterize water as wet.
There will be No support for an Obama administration
Vegas_Rick Friday, October 24th at 12:20PM EDT (link)If he wins, the fight is on. Only we’ll fight fair, unlike those infected with Bush Derangement Syndrome.
Get ready.
“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.
GreenAcres, we are not pointing the finger at ALL Democrats-
janis Friday, October 24th at 12:25PM EDT (link)just the ones who either ignorantly or knowingly support Obama and his intentions to change our country into something that we don’t want and never will.
There’s a whole lot of other Dems who love country over party, and they are our allies in this. You are not.
Sigh. It looks like it's going
GreenAces Friday, October 24th at 12:30PM EDT (link)to be an extended backpacking trip for the Republican Party.
Oh Elizabeth, you hit it out of the park!
c17wife Friday, October 24th at 12:34PM EDT (link)Thanks for having my back.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
Interesting response...
Moe Lane Friday, October 24th at 12:35PM EDT (link)…from somebody voting for the guys who routinely call us racist bigots, lie about their/our role in our current financial mess, and who are comfortable declaring to the world that they hate us and all that we stand for.
Stop pretending that your hands are clean.
Check out my new blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (blogging-related) wish list.
Oh my, Green Acres, if I were you I wouldn't be
janis Friday, October 24th at 12:38PM EDT (link)making it a point to be so smug right now. The polls are trending our way. More and more people are finding out who Obama really is and what he really intends to do to this country if he wins.
Or are you counting on massive voter fraud to make him POTUS?
Just another confirmation
GreenAces Friday, October 24th at 12:40PM EDT (link)that you simply don’t get the fact that equating a vote for Obama with being anti-american is exactly why McCain has lost all the independents. He sunk himself with the same toxic brew of McCarthyism.
Zoot, I agree in part.
c17wife Friday, October 24th at 12:40PM EDT (link)Personally, I think losing the House and the Senate is due punishment. Losing all three dooms this entire country for a generation. I’m not quite sure America deserves that. Nor am I sure that my children do.
Some would say we all deserve hell, and we do, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.
and no, I don’t think God is a Republican, but i do think the Republican Party best aligns itself according to His will and teachings.
Once upon a time I would have said the same for the democrats, but no longer.
Personally, I’d love to see the MSM go belly-up as a result of this election. Then maybe we could get back to judging a person’s fitness for office by the issues and no some damn cult of personality. But that is really a topic for another discussion.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
:-) You're welcome.
Elizabeth Friday, October 24th at 12:49PM EDT (link)n/t
“‘You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,’ said Aslan. ‘And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.’” — C.S. Lewis’ “Prince Caspian”
Not really
MikeO Friday, October 24th at 12:53PM EDT (link)It is working. That’s why you are here.
Elizabeth, your comment is the best one I've
janis Friday, October 24th at 12:55PM EDT (link)read on this subject anywhere. It should be required reading before voting. Superb job.
Thanks for the kind words, EPU
ZootSuit Friday, October 24th at 2:25PM EDT (link)But my extended stay around here is short-lived. I have a temporary brake from my other duties and am using part of the time to lurk around RedState more. But soon enough, I will be back to the grind.
Also, I do not think we are that far apart politically. Remember, I was an original FredHead, too, my “he couldn’t inspire a burning man to get out of a burning building” comments notwithstanding. I just try to be honest with myself, even when it hurts me.
***** Unrepentant African-American nationalist, Unapologetic African-American conservative!
Not offended
Gengisdon Friday, October 24th at 2:31PM EDT (link)But disappointed. And if that’s truly your view, there an awful lot of evil people in this country.
Nonetheless, I don’t think you are evil, or that you support evil. I just think you’re wrong.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
It is nice to see the re-emergence of some of the RS regulars
bs Friday, October 24th at 2:48PM EDT (link)It somewhat counteracts some of the whack jobs that have settled in here of late.
Decorum is fo’ suckas
Try again
Gengisdon Friday, October 24th at 2:51PM EDT (link)I have seen pictures. I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion.
Again, words have meaning. Holocaust has meaning. I would oppose, through armed resistance if necessary, my country engaging in an event parallel to that of the Nazi extermination of “undesirables.” Never again.
Perhaps you would not. I guess if you would not oppose a holocaust by any means necessary then you mean what you say. But it would seem you water down the term by your application. But your rhetoric certainly could be used as justification for violence. If your usage of the term is correct, it would actually justify said violence.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
My bottom line
Gengisdon Friday, October 24th at 3:02PM EDT (link)Is that if you actually think your opposition is evil, it leads to hatred. You don’t hate someone who is wrong, but you certainly can (and should) hate those that are evil. There are plenty of folks on my side of the big ditch that think Republicans in general are evil. I think they’re wrong too.
The fundamental problem I’m trying to address is that if we truly think the other half of the country is evil, what hope do we have of going forward together as a united people? Political fortunes ebb and flow, but the people remain.
Look, I know we disagree on just about everything under the sun. But evil? I deny it, and I do not reciprocate it upon you. There are things in which I think the Republican party is wrong, places where I think it is greedy, or narrow-minded, or naive, or misguided. But not evil. That’s all.
I probably said too much now. Must horde the tiny stash of remaining good cred I have for post-election, where I anticipate visitors from the evil party will probably be even less welcome. And that’s a shame, because I can assure you my time here is always well spent.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
You might want to take note GreenAce
mbecker908 Friday, October 24th at 4:42PM EDT (link)that, in fact, McCarthy was right.
You're a moron Gengisdon.
Tim_Schieferecke Friday, October 24th at 4:48PM EDT (link)If you don’t consider the wanton killing of 40 million + babies an American Holocaust, you are soulless. You point out that you would jump to action if similar circumstances to the historic Holocaust reoccurred, incidentally, so would I. But we live in a democratic society, and the methods of affecting change are different in a democracy aren’t they you strawman general? Violence when it can be avoided by the use of the democratic process is always preferable. I do not and never did condone the actions that Eric Rudolph took. You would stand idly by in a democratic society and allow the slaughter of the innocence. You’re sick, you need help. You’re going to have a lot of explaining to do when you stand before God.
Tim Schieferecke
Non-violence is preferable.
Tim_Schieferecke Friday, October 24th at 4:54PM EDT (link)n/t
Tim Schieferecke
We live in a Democratic society
Gengisdon Friday, October 24th at 5:05PM EDT (link)And if our country voted to start sending Jews, Gypsies, and other desirables to camps where they were exterminated, I wouldn’t just petition my Congressman and call for a referendum.
I do not think you are advocating violence at all, I share your repudiation of Eric Rudolph, but your terms can be used as a justification for violence. That’s all.
And I much prefer to be called a moron than evil :-).
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
How bad can the economy be when Obama can get $600 million?
GregInFla Friday, October 24th at 6:05PM EDT (link)Add to this the legions of people going to see movies, eating all their meals out, having trouble finding a Wii on the shelf at the store, spending $3000 for a refrigerator or a TV, getting news cars every three years, etc.
– A true evolutionist would let endangered species die off. Anyone care to change sides?
Support Marco Rubio for US Senate.
c17, your words are a comfort!
mikwalen Friday, October 24th at 6:11PM EDT (link)And I say that to all the rest of you who are concerned about this country if O ascends to the WH.
I am Catholic, and I have been saying a special rosary every day for the outcome of this election. I am greatly upset about O’s pro-abortion views. Add to that his associations, his intentions in other areas, etc. I take great comfort in the attitude here that the polls are most likely exaggerating or lying.
Like c17, I have been imploring God - You see what is going on - the unjust, one-sided coverage, the abuse, name-calling, and otherwise cruel behavior (both verbal AND physical) towards McCain supporters. The filth that has been leveled at Sarah is beyond anything I could have imagined. And if McC or Sarah says anything about O, they are accused of “being desperate”, “scare tactics”, “mudslinging”.
Jesus knows that there are millions of God -fearing, moral, upright, pro-life people in this country. He must be hear -ing all these prayers!!! And I know God answers prayers in His own way, as has been pointed out, and I must indeed keep faith even if this election doesn’t swing our way. I just don’t want to see what O will do.
Also - and this is probably trivial - the triumphant gloating and jeering from the left, the liberal columnists, the media in general, Hollywood, etc. will be unbearable. I WILL not look at a newspaper until at least March ‘09.
I am so pleased to have found a community that has generally the same feelings. We must trust Jesus and know that He knows what He’s doing.
I don't get it.
izoneguy Friday, October 24th at 6:15PM EDT (link)Why would you send money to Obama when he will come take it anyway? So you give a Marxist money to get elected, and then he and his band of leftist’s will pillage & raid your 401K, sack your business and destroy your free speech rights. What part of this am I not understanding?
“When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”
Thomas Jefferson
No such thing as a pro-choice position
GregInFla Friday, October 24th at 6:23PM EDT (link)If you supported people stealing from others, but would rather not do it yourself, would that be pro-larceny, or pro-choice?
If you supported others having slaves, but did not do it yourself, would that be pro-slavery, or pro-choice?
If you supported people killing other people, but chose not to kill others yourself, would that be pro-murder, or pro-choice?
– A true evolutionist would let endangered species die off. Anyone care to change sides?
Support Marco Rubio for US Senate.
Janis, as an author once penned
GregInFla Friday, October 24th at 6:27PM EDT (link)Liberalism is a mental disorder. It defies rational thinking.
– A true evolutionist would let endangered species die off. Anyone care to change sides?
Support Marco Rubio for US Senate.
To all, thanks for the kinds words of support.
c17wife Friday, October 24th at 6:36PM EDT (link)To those I have comforted in some way, know that the words on this page come from much conversation with our Creator. I have literally been pleading with him over the past few weeks. He has guided me to places of refuge and encouragement during some dark hours on this side of the Atlantic.
To those I have offended or disappointed, meh. I got nothing for you. I’m over the ‘new tone’ and done being lukewarm. Win or lose this round, I’m all in for what I believe is right and just. And I’ll not apologize for it.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
You're right
Menlo Friday, October 24th at 7:43PM EDT (link)However, the term is almost always a lie given that 95 percent of these people who call themselves “pro choice” only favor one kind of “choice.” Everything else they want decided by the government (what food we can eat, what cars we can drive, what kind of toilets we can use, what light bulbs we can use, what we can set our thermostats to).
Moreover, I think “choice” is irrelevant to the real issue of whether something should qualify as a legitimate medical procedure.
“Guess which party these big insurance companies favor? Big companies love big government.” -Ann Coulter
Thanks Janis!
Elizabeth Friday, October 24th at 8:08PM EDT (link)n/t
“‘You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,’ said Aslan. ‘And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.’” — C.S. Lewis’ “Prince Caspian”
Fair enough
Gengisdon Friday, October 24th at 10:58PM EDT (link)And I will do likewise.
But I don’t think you will bring on board many folks not already on the wagon if you dismiss them as evil and worthy of your contempt.
Just know there is at least one Obama supporter out there who continues to read your posts and is interested in what you have to say. Even if you think you’ve got “nothing for me,” I think you do.
But the Hebrew word, the word timshel—‘Thou mayest’— that gives a choice. It might be the most important word in the world. That says the way is open. That throws it right back on a man. For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.’
You'd only make things worse.
Menlo Friday, October 24th at 11:22PM EDT (link)That wouldn’t stop the practice from continuing and would likely only make it worse. The only violence that has ever stopped genocide was on the scale of an actual war; and it wouldn’t get to that point here because the possibility of such an event would imply there was enough electoral support to get law enforcement to simply shut down the abortuaries without killing anyone.
The Holocaust could not have been ended by Germans who realized what was happening and opposed it. It took the support of large militaries from other countries. A few violent people here and there would only be killed or arrested.
Regardless of the genocide that is occurring, you need more people to realize the genocide that is happening and to oppose it as such.
“Guess which party these big insurance companies favor? Big companies love big government.” -Ann Coulter
I totally agree, c17wife!!!
Rod_Patrick Saturday, October 25th at 3:05AM EDT (link)We can only do so much. The rest is up to God. Only through God we can win this election.
Good thing that Sarah is unapologetic Christian who believes in the power of Holy Spirit, the vicar of Christ, as per the Book of Acts.
This Video Campaign Can Only HELP!
mfsheldon Saturday, October 25th at 7:57AM EDT (link)Please help promote these videos. I want conservatives to learn to use the Internet as a weapon laden with facts.
These come from the “Burning Down The House” video that was on Drudge.
Here is the latest video. It is incredible. If only McCain did more videos like these…
http://windsofchange.thruhere.net
I think it could have viral qualities.
There are many other videos on this YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/themouthpeace
Spread these videos and post them everywhere. Think of it like this, with 10,000 committed people posting these in 10 places each day over 10 days, that is 1,000,000 postings.
If 10 people see each posting that is 10,000,000 views. If only 1 in 10 send it to 10 people that is 20,000,000 views.
Now you are talking enough impact to change an election! Let’s do that!
We must be in trouble if the fatalism is rearing its head.
Staunch_Libertarian Saturday, October 25th at 2:32PM EDT (link)I’ve never had anyone tell me “God is in control and we will all stand before him one day…” before good news was delivered.
————————————————————-
I am a Positivist Pastafarian for the alliteration alone.
Amen
drewski89 Saturday, October 25th at 3:12PM EDT (link)Amen, Amen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBX2ec7c81E
Excellent!
Wisecracker Saturday, October 25th at 3:13PM EDT (link)I can identify!
Omnibus abortion reply
I was a retread named Zombie Flanders / randomkid. Saturday, October 25th at 4:23PM EDT (link)1(janis):
That is a good point…I am pretty sure that a just-fertilized zygote doesn’t have one, an infant who was just born does. There is an area in between where I am not sure, and I am against abortion in the late term, except for with certain exceptions (life/health of mother, if a child has something like tay-sachs (that is a tough/depressing call), etc)
2 (daveinfla):Infantcide is killing a life, but an infant refers to someone after birth. This doesn’t answer the question, really. yes I would be appalled in the case of the Golden Retriever, and I would be even if you rippied open the stomach of a non-pregnant retriever. It is worse with the pregnant one…partially because we in our society in general accord a certain special status to pregnant people (/animals) and because there is the issue of who gets to control pregnancy (imho the mother).
3 (menlo) Yeah, this stuff is not measurable, but neither is questions like the truth of Christianity or Islam or whatever, and yet people base political opinions on that stuff all the time. When this stuff about a soul is the basic reason we consider murder to be bad, it is important when we ask whether a certain activity is murder.
4 (dolores the nurse): yeah, by definition…this raises an interesting question. if my soul existed since the beginning of time, then wouldn’t someone who had done something (inadvertently or not) to prevent my parents’ getting married also be responsible for murder by preventing me from ever gaining a body.
5 (aceintx) I was a fetus…but I was also a sperm/egg at a point. And if specifically that sperm and egg hadn’t met (one of the other sperm instead, for example) I wouldn’t be me, so you could say I wouldn’t exist. But to stop that from happening wouldn’t be murder.
6 (mikeo) I am willing to discuss, I have just been busy…first with dinner/poker (where I got a straight flush!) then with a trip last night where I didn’t have internet access, etc. So it took me awhile to get back, but here I am.
7 (aceintx) I am suspicious of such arguments. For example, think of some really unpleasant task…would you do it for $1 million (yes). for $1 (no). But at some point it switches. Same with this, if ending a pregnancy when it’s fertilized is evil, what about stopping the sperm and egg from meeting, how is it different from a moral point of view, you still stop the fetus from ever being born/having a life. Same with stopping two people form being married and having a kid.
10 (vegasrick) if yall care about ending abortion you shouldn’t call me such things…I am debating and am at least somewhat open on this, you should be trying to convince me, and saying such things will turn me off. If you want to ban people being against abortion you can, but since you don’t I will say what I think.
11 (Jaded)
. Without going into too much detail, had the Holocaust not happened my grandparents would never have met and by extension I would not be chatting with you now. Does that mean it would be wrong to try and stop the Holocaust? Since stopping the Holocaust is good for other reasons which override my own personal interest, take the same question but what if some mundane event with no outside moral content had somehow indirectly caused my parents to meet, would stopping that event be evil?
12 (Tim) Yes I believe I have a soul. I am not sure when it entered my body.
13 (nogyro35) I do deny this “undeniable fact.” There have been crimes both ways…I have seen both on both RedState and Dkos. Their existence does not change the ideas. The fact that communists were oppressed by the Nazis doesn’t make the communists’ ideas right, or the Nazi’s racial ideas wrong (they were wrong for other reasons).
14 (mbecker908) Hitler did not…he considered using German children as human shields to engineer his own escape from advancing Allied forces. He was evil/nuts, same with the others. If I said “spit” people would accuse me of “tracking mud into this house” and ban me. I did not track in said mud.
I think I got all the stuff directed at me, so one more thing to add:
Rashi says life starts at birth (someone asked how one could be religious and think that…). The Torah has pretty stringent prohibitions on worshipping idols, but I don’t support laws against it. The Torah has pretty stringent prohibitions on murder, and I do support laws against it. A big difference is the idea of sins against God vs sins against other people. The latter should be stopped by the legal system, not the former. If fetuses are not people, like Rashi sez, (and this is me saying this not someone else), then an abortion is a sin against God and not against another human (how could it be against another human if a fetus isn’t considered a person yet?)
If I said something with no grammatical integrity or logic, it is possible because I am mad tired and was typing a lot, some of which I typed earlier and was cutting/pasting.
Finally, I want to invite c17wife to respond to all this, since it was her diary, I’d be interested in hearing her reaction.
A PRAYER FOR OUR NATIONAL ELECTION (Authored by Fr. Frank Pavone.)
wet_rat Saturday, October 25th at 7:33PM EDT (link)O God, we acknowledge You today as Lord,
Not only of individuals, but of nations and governments.
We thank You for the privilege
Of being able to organize ourselves politically
And of knowing that political loyalty
Does not have to mean disloyalty to You.
We thank You for Your law,
Which our Founding Fathers acknowledged
And recognized as higher than any human law.
We thank You for the opportunity that this election year puts before us,
To exercise our solemn duty not only to vote,
But to influence countless others to vote,
And to vote correctly.
Lord, we pray that Your people may be awakened.
Let them realize that while politics is not their salvation,
Their response to You requires that they be politically active.
Awaken Your people to know that they are not called to be a sect fleeing the world
But rather a community of faith renewing the world.
Awaken them that the same hands lifted up to You in prayer
Are the hands that pull the lever in the voting booth;
That the same eyes that read Your Word
Are the eyes that read the names on the ballot,
And that they do not cease to be Christians
When they enter the voting booth.
Awaken Your people to a commitment to justice,
To the sanctity of marriage and the family,
To the dignity of each individual human life,
And to the truth that human rights begin when Human Lives Begin,
And not one moment later.
Lord, we rejoice today
That we are citizens of Your kingdom.
May that make us all the more committed
To being faithful citizens on earth.
We ask this through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Amen.
AMEN!!!
Terilyn Donaldson Saturday, October 25th at 7:51PM EDT (link)n/t
SURVIVING IN WYOMING…
Join the RedState Strike Force
Amen
JustLeaveMeAlone Saturday, October 25th at 10:39PM EDT (link)n/t
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
the left, becker
David Hinz Saturday, October 25th at 10:44PM EDT (link)has never been able to grasp that fact.
it hits WAY too close to home
The Minority Report — The HinzSight Report — TMRB.tv — MFOB “Miss Tagart, do you know the hallmark of the second-rater? It’s resentment of another man’s achievement.”
Liberals aren't evil...
furious Sunday, October 26th at 12:41PM EDT (link)…they’re wrong. They’ve been on the wrong side of the Big Issues facing this country (and the rest of the Free World) at least since I’ve been old enough to remember following politics (’68 elections). And their wrong-ness is the wrong-ness of good intentions, with which the Road to Hell is paved.
I don’t question Liberals’ sincerity in trying to improve this country, any more than I question the sincerity of the Khmer Rouge or Shining Path in wanting a more just and equitable future for their respective countrymen.
And I have just one question for the liberal commenters here — how can you not extend the same shadow-of-a-doubt to the humanity of an unborn child that you do to the guilt (or fitness of punishment) of a criminal on death row?
Is it because ACORN can register the latter to vote absentee?
–furious
“I find your lack of faith disturbing.” — Darth Vader
Rattlesnakes aren't "evil" either...,
Putter Sunday, October 26th at 12:57PM EDT (link)but I won’t share a bath tub with one. Human beings have a choice, snakes do not. I will never understand why there is the liberal need to equate the death penalty for first degree murder with abortion. The murderer had a trial and 12 people agreed, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the SOB deserved to die. The “mother” made a series of mistakes and does not want to be inconvenienced.
The Khmer Rouge and Shining Path are terrorists groups in that they target innocent people. The goal does not matter all that much to me when the crosshairs are on the infant.
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies…
Thanks
Swifty Sunday, October 26th at 5:00PM EDT (link)furious — thanks for articulating a difference between “evil” and “disagreement.” I’ve been called many things in my life, but as a fairly far left liberal, I can’t say I’m too keen on being called ‘evil.’ Personally, I have a sincere desire to leave this country and this planet as a slightly better place than it was when I came into it.
I do not support the death penalty or abortion. In my opinion, no person has the right to take another human life. That’s how I equate them. (I do make an exception in the case of defending life, property and country.)
Which leads me to abortion. And frankly, it’s something I debate with myself quite often.
I would very much like to be pro-life. But I have to make exception for when the health of the mother is involved and in the case of rape.
I also can’t be pro-life because the government does not fully support or promote anything other than abstinence-only education. I think government supported contraception for males and females would go a long way in reducing our horrifying abortion rate in this country.
I appreciate the debate on this forum. (I appreciate being called ‘evil’ a bit less). But y’all have on more than one occasion caused me to really stop and re-evaluate my beliefs. And I sincerely appreciate that…and hope it makes be a better American.
Aint THAT the truth
E Pluribus Unum Monday, October 27th at 10:33AM EDT (link)Carthago delenda est
Jesus was a Democrat
chad280 Monday, October 27th at 11:51AM EDT (link)Has anyone heard this song lately by Everclear called “Jesus was a Democrat?” I mean it preposterous!! Definitely one of the most controversial songs I have ever heard. Take a listen and see what you think:
http://www.everclearonline.com
OK, chad280, stop spambotting. <NT>
Moe Lane Monday, October 27th at 11:55AM EDT (link)NT
Check out my new blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (blogging-related) wish list.
I'm not spambotting
chad280 Monday, October 27th at 12:01PM EDT (link)I know alot of people have been commenting on this and I wanted people to check this song out. there is alot of controversy in this song and im sure it would piss off alot of people.
Ok...in that case, QUIT TRYING TO INSTIGATE AGRRESSION....n/t
Attack Mode Monday, October 27th at 12:11PM EDT (link)n/t
“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.
UMMMMMMMM Nobody has ever heard of the song
PaRep Monday, October 27th at 12:12PM EDT (link)Numbnuts & EverQueer is so 10 years ago
Completely OT but HEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PaRep Monday, October 27th at 12:19PM EDT (link)Taliban Leader Mullah Omar Killed with Kindness and Airstrike, But Mostly Airstrike
AoS
I did not response sooner because I didn't want to get into a theological debate but ...
ZootSuit Tuesday, October 28th at 6:35AM EDT (link)I should have made myself perfectly clear in that I do NOT think that the 2008 elections are turning out to be G-d’s judgment against conservatives and/or the country. I think it is the American people’s judgement against conservatism.
As for my thinking and beliefs about church and state, I think they are best summed up by the words of our LORD Himself:
– John 18:36
***** Unrepentant African-American nationalist, Unapologetic African-American conservative!
Not exactly
whizkid Tuesday, October 28th at 6:50PM EDT (link)you keep asking would it be a sin to somehow stop parents/grandparents etc from meeting, therefore preventing a future life. The thing you are missing is that before the parents/grandparents meet, the life does not exist. However, at conception, the life exists. You say that it is hard to find the exact point at which one would do something unpleasant for financial gain. The point, in this discussion, is at conception. At CONCEPTION. When the life begins, it is wrong to kill it from thenceforth onward until natural death.
Dan Barr
%%% -- I know your angst
Judy T Wednesday, October 29th at 6:37AM EDT (link)I catch myself in fear of an Obama election quite frequently. A long time friend (together we stood in line until 10 pm to vote for Reagan in 1980) tells me that for the first time in her life she is scared of the possible outcome of an election.
The minute we both realize we are in thoughts of fear we turn our hearts to God.
I pray for God to touch the hearts of all voters to do what is right in his eyes. I look at Obama and see evil. His position on abortion, on Israel, on taking away the fruits of ones labor for the government.
Often I just resort to thinking of different hymns about faith. I know that God will work all things (including the stupid evil of man) for good for those that love the Lord. So I have faith that what comes as long as I serve the Lord it will be fine.
I can withstand the evils of man as long as I kneel to Christ.
Judy T.