With every passing hour comes word through the political grapevine that John McCain has settled on Romney, or considering Joe Lieberman, or picked Tom Ridge. Even Rudy’ name has been thrown around this afternoon.
Probably the biggest issue surrounding McCain’s VP pick is whether he’ll dare pick a pro-choice candidate as his running mate. A small vocal base of right-wingers is up in arms at the thought of a pro-choice candidate on the ticket. Dire predictions that McCain’s Christian conservative base will turn on him if he picks a pro-choice candidate are all over the right-wing blogosphere. There is however, a growing chorus of folks on the right who think a bold out-of-the-box pick is exactly what McCain needs to win.
I happen to think all the threats coming from the far right are overblown. If McCain were to choose Lieberman, there would be a few supporters who may be outraged, but for the most part I think he could weather the storm just fine. Threats from evangelicals ring hollow because you know they’re gonna vote, and they damn sure aren’t voting for Obama.
John McCain should follow his heart when he picks a running mate. He should block out any threats or ominous predictions and pick the guy he thinks is right. John McCain is as pro-life as you can get. Whether or not his running mate is pro-life is irrelevant.
It’s just plain stupid to cross an otherwise excellent candidate off the list simply because he holds one view you happen to disagree with. The far right will yell, complain, and maybe even throw stuff, but when election day rolls around they’ll vote for McCain.
The real important thing to Christian conservatives is to keep Barack Obama from being elected. John McCain with or without a pro-choice running mate is a godsend compared to Barack Obama and whoever the hell he picks. Barack Obama is the antithesis of everything the far right hold dear. He’s not pro-choice, he’s pro-abortion. He made it clear at the Saddleback forum exactly what kind of judges he would appoint to the Supreme Court.
Barack Obama’s values are San Francisco values and any right-winger who would vote against McCain or not vote at all is an idiot. However, I don’t believe that’s going to happen. Anyone that McCain chooses will be better than the far left dynamic duo of Barack Obama and (fill in the name).
I think Joe Lieberman would be a fantastic pick for John McCain. All the moderate Democrats who feel uneasy about turning the keys to the country over to a freshman Senator would give McCain a second look. All the Democrats who love America and want a warrior in the White House instead of a faux Messiah wuss will give McCain a second look.
Joe Lieberman is a good man. He stood literally completely alone against his own party to support the Iraq war. He was willing to give up his entire career to support a cause that was worthy and just. Like McCain, Joe Lieberman has character and character is a pretty rare commodity these days. Men like McCain and Lieberman will do what’s right even when it’s unpopular to do so.
We have a war going on and an economy that needs fixing, so what John McCain’s running mate thinks about abortion is totally inconsequential. We don’t live in a one issue world, and you’re not always going to agree with a candidate on 100% of the issues. You have to look at the sum total of John McCain and the sum total of Barack Obama and then decide which candidate’s ideals most closely resemble yours.
-Chris Jones
Conservatives would hold their nose and pull the lever.
NightTwister Tuesday, August 19th at 5:08PM EDT (link)Some of them, anyway.
Lieberman is a terrible pick. He’s a pro-war liberal, and not a moderate one at that.
The last thing McCain needs is someone to the left of him on the ticket.
Get Connected in Colorado.
Want to bet?
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 5:57PM EDT (link)You are deluding yourself if you think Evangelicals and other Pro-Lifers will support McCain if he chooses a Pro-Choice VP.
If you believe they will, then you are echoing the media sentiment that Value Voters will just ‘do as they are told’ and that they won’t think for themselves.
McCain angered a lot of us when he stabbed us in the back with the GANG OF 14. Value voters have a looooonnngg memory. McCain would be wise to consider them now that he needs their support to win.
The point is moot to me as I swore after the GANG OF 14 that I would never, ever vote for him. I’m staying true to that regardless of who McCain picks. Not all Values Voters are like me though, and a lot will still vote for McCain as long as he shows some respect to their views. A Pro-Choice VP is not the way to do it.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me
We HAVE to vote for him...No choice..There's only one Dem I would vote for..
$peciallist Tuesday, August 19th at 6:06PM EDT (link)And She would have to be running against Harriet Myers
Now wait a minute Haley37 why does McCain's...
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 6:08PM EDT (link)pick have to be prolife McCain himself is prolife….it is JUST the VP….this is getting tiresome….hey don’t want to vote for him fine but when President Obama is crapping all over the US you can come tell us here how that is working out for you and the other “values” voters.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
No I will not.
cdbymatt Tuesday, August 19th at 6:15PM EDT (link)Once it was clear that McCain would be the nominee I decided not to vote for him. I have 8 conservative close friends. 2 of them made the same decision as me and the other 6 are waiting to see who he choses as a running mate. If he choses a moderate or pro-choice guy, you can chalk up 6 more votes for Bob Barr.
It's not my job to elect McCain, it's his.
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 6:18PM EDT (link)I’m not voting for McCain because I believe he’s a liar when it comes to appointing conservative judges and stopping illegal immigration.
As I’ve stated before, I don’t owe my vote to someone just because they happen to be on the top of the ticket I usually support.
So if McCain loses, it will be because he didn’t convince enough people that he is the better choice. Personally, he deserves ignoble defeat for derailing everything that I worked so hard for as a GOP volunteer in 2000 and 2004.
On Free Speech, Judges and Illegal Immigration, McCain is not trustworthy. If his support of our nation during war is the best argument his supporters can make, it’s still not enough for me.
I’m either writing in Mitt Romney or I might vote for Baldwin of the Constituion Party. At least he’s never metaphorically stabbed me in the back.
McCain is a jerk.
Wrong
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 6:21PM EDT (link)I don’t have to vote for anyone. It’s my choice who gets my vote.
You are right and by all means throw your vote away...
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 6:24PM EDT (link)You can also come back and tell me when you find the “perfect” candidate besides yourself.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Thank you, cdbymatt
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 6:24PM EDT (link)You just validated my point.
You can't be serious
Chris Jones Tuesday, August 19th at 6:25PM EDT (link)You wanna see “values?” Just stay home on election day and let Obama win. It’ll will take decades to recover from the damage a left-winger like him would do to the courts and the country.
You would rather let everything you believe in be destroyed by a far-left Obama presidency that vote for a McCain with a pro-choice running mate? It just doesn’t make any sense.
You’re not being practical, you’re being foolish. (with all due respect)
Good grief
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 6:26PM EDT (link)The primary power the POTUS has with regard to issues about abortion, etc. is who he nominates to the SCOTUS. Your vote for Barr is a vote for another Ginsburg or Breyer on the court. That is ultimately the prism through which this election should be examined. All the other issues, though important, are distractions from this supremely overriding concern.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
Well haley and matt for 9 of the questionable..
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 6:28PM EDT (link)votes you discuss I have turned that many conservative (redstate) D’s this primary season….so your votes shall be offset and I am hardly done….I and millions like me will work to ensure that Barack Obama gets no where near Pennsylvania Avenue. I am shocked you hang around here when you cannot support the candidate that Redstate supports…you all had your chance in the primaries to get someone else elected and you LOST get over it!
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Well Chris Jones they do have 06 and the last
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 6:31PM EDT (link)2 years as guidance when you sit on your hands but with no respect given if that didn’t teach “values” voters anything then they are unteachable.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Only one reply to your SCOTUS argument
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 6:35PM EDT (link)GANG OF 14
Stop being dramatic
Chris Jones Tuesday, August 19th at 6:36PM EDT (link)Liberals are the ones who are supposed to act irrational and make dramatic pointless votes not Republicans.
Voting for Bob Barr is just like voting for Ron Paul, it’s just plain stupid. Bob Barr has no chance of becoming President now or at anytime in the future.
Acting like a drama queen by voting for Bob Barr is just throwing your vote away and handing the country to Obama. Anyone who claims to be a Republican, but would hand the election to Obama out of spite is a phony.
Obama represents everything that Republicans and conservatives do not. We have nothing in common with him or his friends. John McCain for all his faults does share our beliefs. Not 100% of them, but he’s a good man.
Stop acting like crybabies and vote for John McCain.
Well Said
Chris Jones Tuesday, August 19th at 6:38PM EDT (link)Cheers to that!
See, you even treat values voters with disdain
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 6:41PM EDT (link)So has McCain and he expects our votes?!?
For the record, I didn’t ’sit out’ the 2006 elections. The GOP ran a horrible campaign, didn’t defend President Bush and allowed certain, self-serving senators from AZ to scuttle the best political opportunity that Conservatives had ever had regarding reshaping the judiciary and bringing it back to accountability.
You think I’m sore about the GANG OF 14? My friends, you don’t know what being sore looks like.
McCain lost my vote that day, and he has done nothing - NOTHING - to make amends. It’s because he (hold your breath now) doesn’t care.
So Obama would choose better??? N/T
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 6:42PM EDT (link)All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
Wake Up
Chris Jones Tuesday, August 19th at 6:44PM EDT (link)Unless we get a President who takes the war on terror seriously, we won’t have to worry about abortions because we’ll all be dead.
John McCain has a solid pro-life record. Having a pro-choice running mate shouldn’t matter. What matters is keeping Obama and his radical left-wing pals out of the White House.
Also, I’m tired of hearing about the “Gang Of 14.” The only gang that matters is the far-left gang that Barack Obama will bring to the White House.
No I don't treat values voters with disdain I
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 6:45PM EDT (link)treat values voters who would help the biggest marxist of our time get into office with disgust/disdain.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Like Jerry would say
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 6:45PM EDT (link)Yadda-yadda-yadda
brilliant repartee I am awash in your brilliance...
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 6:49PM EDT (link)why if I didn’t know better I would think I was having a conversation with a koskid.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
You're making circles here
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 7:02PM EDT (link)You apply circular logic to the reason I should vote for someone who has actively worked against my political interests by saying that not supporting that person is going against my political interests.
It doesn’t wash.
Tell me, after McCain gets elected (for the record, I think he will win just because Obama is a terrible candidate), and then gives blanket amnesty to 12 million lawbreakers after he said he got it, will you be happy with your vote then?
I will be at peace with mine.
Need I remind you
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 7:03PM EDT (link)of this?
Come on, are you serious? We have judges using international law for case precedence! We now need for them to make judgements on the basis of feelings, as well? What if they are in a bad mood? I mean really. The ONLY criteria for making decisions on the SCOTUS is the United States Constitution. I wasn’t happy about the gang of 14 thing either, but I’m not kidding myself as to who will do more damage to this country in the long term.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
Sure Haley because Obama is definitely not...
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 7:07PM EDT (link)going to give with D Congress and the D Senate 20 million plus amnesty….because he certainly doesn’t feel like the drivers licenses he want to give them now are enough.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Glad you feel so special
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 7:08PM EDT (link)I’m happy to impart whatever wisdom I can. Name calling is not really mature though. KosKid? That’s rich. You know little to nothing about my politics. I’ve been here for years.
We can just agree to disagree. I’ll leave it at that and not up the ante here.
5 5 5
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 7:10PM EDT (link)nt
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Is your Aunt Louise visiting this week?
$peciallist Tuesday, August 19th at 7:12PM EDT (link)n/p
and yadda yadda yadda is not childish?
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 7:17PM EDT (link)get a grip….you could have been here for the life of the site and that becomes immaterial when you are voting against the interests of the United States of America and a throw away vote is just that. I personally have a great aversion to John McCain as the candidate…I was a Fredhead and then a Romneybot anybody but Huckabee or McCain and then there was one. I grew to like him though since really just Saturday night but I would have supported him even if he did not BLOW Obama out of the water that night because this is bigger than me and you.
I got over it and you should to because our one is NOT the The One….and liberals and the media wing of the Democrat Party need to have their heads explode this election and I intend to help ensure that occurs…you obviously will not.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
So what's the difference?
Haley37 Tuesday, August 19th at 7:20PM EDT (link)You just validated my point. McCain will give amnesty, Obama will give amnesty.
What’s the difference?
Also, have you looked at the statement you have posted beneath your comments?
It’s a shame that McCain didn’t follow that sound philosophy when he sold us out on judges with the GANG OF 14.
You DEFEAT your enemies when you have a chance. Saving a Cobra from a Mongoose to only have it slither around and give you a poisinous bite shouldn’t earn you shock at your own stupidity.
Oh Jaded,
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 7:29PM EDT (link)you can’t let this foolishness get to you. Someone once told me that getting angry at a person is like taking poison and expecting that person to die. Obviously rational discourse is not going to sway Haley. So the next best thing is to move on.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
The difference is McCain can and has been..
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 7:30PM EDT (link)pulled in the other direction on amnesty but Obama has not and will not be. Look McCain isn’t the be all end all but he is head and shoulders above the competition and I MUST do all I can to send Obama home and make the nutroots heads explode….the left is out of control…I will be happier with a moderate Republican than a hard core marxist any day of the week.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
CV Gas good observation and kewl signature.
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 7:34PM EDT (link)nt
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
That kind of Arrogance and condescension is exactly the kind of thin that will lose this election for McCain!
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 7:39PM EDT (link)McCain’s performance at Saddleback last weekend has finally brought me to the point where I can not only pull the lever for McCain comfortably but actually do so enthusiastically! It actually has brought me from the brink of not voting at all for POTUS…to being ready to actively campaign on his behalf….
A Pro-Choice pick for VP will seal the deal for me and ensure a blank spot at the top of my Ballot in November. In fact…I’ll actively give money to any Republican who would stand up at the convention and seek to have delegates vote for him/her over McCain if he’s stupid enough to nominate a Pro Choicer…
We’ve been asked to swallow much in this election cycle…and we’ve swallowed it…I’m ready to vote and campaign for McCain though I thought I’d shoot myself in the head before I’d ever do so…but there is such a thing as a bridge to far. There is a line that will not be crossed without serious consequences….A Ridge , Giuliani or Lieberman pick is that bridge!
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aceintx...question? why does his VP have
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 7:42PM EDT (link)to be prolife when McCain is prolife? why does there need to be this litmus on the VP….did you accept Cheney knowing he did not support the constitutional amendment for marriage between a man and woman?
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Pulling A Kowalski
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 7:47PM EDT (link)Given the fact that the last tow elections were decided by a 1% or 2% margin…I can’t think of anything dumber than deliberately thumbing your nose at…and sticking your thumb in the eyes of your natural allies…There are a lot of folks out there that will eat a lot of crap to defeat the Golden Child…but I’d be damned careful about how far I went tempting the base to be “Idiots” as you would call them!
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Good point Ace, but I suspect McCain can't lose
Mike gamecock DeVine Tuesday, August 19th at 7:51PM EDT (link)Obama is that much worse than Gore and Kerry and they stunk.
That is my opinion, but I have said for months that McCain will not pick a pro-choicer. It would be a suicide attempt but a failed one given Obama’s radicalism.
I think these are trial balloons to make the pro-choicers feel loved.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
I think they call it maverick, but its all fluff
Mike gamecock DeVine Tuesday, August 19th at 7:54PM EDT (link)McCain will not pick a pro-choicer, but Ace there is nothing McCain could put on the bottom of the ticket to make his ticket worse than Obama with anyone on the bottom of his. Nothing.
seriously man
Obama is dangerous on all fronts
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
Hey girl...Haven't had the chance to contradict you lately because we seem to think to much alike...but this is an exception
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 7:55PM EDT (link)Yeah…it’s just the VP…but it’s not just the VP…
What? you say!
Well…yeah…it’s just the VP…but it’s also the heir apparent for the 2012 or 2016 nomination.
I’ve said it before to the point of sounding like a broken record that while we night swallow much to stop the Golden Child from ascending the throne…there is a limit to what I for one will swallow…and a Pro-Choice pick is the thumb in the eye that would clench it for me and I’m sure enough Conservatives to seal McCain’s doom!
Especially Lieberman…are you kidding me?
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Nah man Lieberman isn't even close to the pick...
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 8:00PM EDT (link)but on top of the that you think Johnny Mac is going to NOT run for another 4 really? Ridge and Lieberman and even Guiliani will be way to old after we primary McCain in the 12 election
This is for 08 and the pleasure of sending Obama back home with all his little marxist desires.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Let's not tempt fate
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 8:05PM EDT (link)by daring McCain to test your statement.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
OK...I'll play your silly game...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:05PM EDT (link)right back atcha….You would rather let everything you believe in be destroyed by a far-left Obama presidency by shoving a pro choice candidate for VP down the throats of voters who KNOW that it’s wrong to wrong to kill innocents for convenience?
This is a double edged sword…and I’m sick of being accused of supporting Obama because I WILL NOT BE ORDERED ABOUT LIKE A CHILD AND I WON”T HAVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TAKE ME FOR GRANTED AS THE DEMS DO WITH BLACKS!
This is the problem with SoCons compromising their principles and agreeing to vote for McCain to stop Obama…because it’s never enough…every time we compromise…It’s never enough…we keep being pushed further into a corner…BEWARE at some point…you will reach the limit and it will all blow up in your face.
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That's a gamble at best...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:11PM EDT (link)I don’t think it’ll be Lieberman either…I’m just reacting to the arrogance of the RMSP types who think they can keep pushing things down our throats and we’ll never bight back…
I’m willing to gamble on McCain for for or eight years…but McCain followed by another four to eight years of a Pro Choice Republican?
NO DEAL!
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I don't believe the point
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 8:11PM EDT (link)being made is to “shut up and do as you’re told.” But I’m pretty sure a McCain administration is more likely to be swayed by conservative backlash against foolishness than is a Deus Obamus administration (i.e. Harriet Meyers, “comprehensive immigration reform). Sure McCain supported the immigration reform. But it failed. Because the White House was answerable to those that elected them. You think Obama will give a rat’s grawlix about whatever protestations we might have regarding their policy decisions?
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
5*5*5*5*5*5
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:13PM EDT (link)nt
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You miss my point...I'm finally at a point of being happy to support McCain after saturday...though I have a trust but verify sense of self preservation with him...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:19PM EDT (link)my outrage at this thread is concerning the possibility of a pro choice VP pick by McCain…I don’t think McCain is that stupid…but if he is…promise you…We will swear in President Obama in January 2009!
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Lets just end the nonsence that a non vote for McCain is a vote for Obama shall we?
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:23PM EDT (link)Let’s turn this argument on it’s ear…a pro-choice pick for VP is a vote for Obama!
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Yes it is a gamble but at this juncture I am....
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 8:23PM EDT (link)putting all my money in the pot on McCain because I am definitely a loser if Obama is President.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
All in good fun
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 8:27PM EDT (link)How did it feel to type the words “President Obama”? I felt nauseated just copying it from your post!
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
Hey Chris...since you like calling people stupid...Is there anything a Republican could do to make you walk away in disgust...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:27PM EDT (link)or would you vote for the R just because he’s the R?
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My point CV...is that responsibility lies with both sides of this issue...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:35PM EDT (link)If someone tells you there is a bridge you can not cross and keep their support…yet you insist on crossing that bridge anyway all the while calling them stupid just to prove a point…who’s really to blame if they don’t continue to support you?
Seriously…this is I’m getting a little sick and tired of the pompousness of some of you here…
Saturday was a cathartic moment for me…one in which I walked away actually enthusiastic about McCain…and all it’s taken is one post on Red State and the resulting pot shots taken at Conservatives that have a problem with the OP to make me shake my head and wonder if I’ve lost my mind for even voting this cycle!
Way to go!
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Hey Chris...YOU WAKE UP!
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:46PM EDT (link)It does matter….PERIOD!
McCain’s VP will be the next Republican nominee for POTUS…this pick means victory or defeat for McCain…you can call people names all you want…threaten us…whine and complain…whatever….but it is what it is…McCain picks ridge, Giuliani, ot Lieberman…he loses the election…and he won’t have anyone else but himself to blame…neither will you!
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Hey ace just for you to remember....
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 8:51PM EDT (link)Obama supports infanticide…..McCain supports life at conception….I think that should be enough for you to vote for McCain….Obama 100% from NARAL….our ILK will probably only agree with McCain 1/2 the time but Obama is the sickness that must be purged…he is without a doubt the WORST person to ever have run for President and with Kerry just 4 years ago that is really saying something.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
I've answered it up thread after posting this...but I'll answer it again for you...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:51PM EDT (link)2012 or 2016…Whoever is McCain’s VP will be the next Republican Nominee…an argument can be made that if it’s Lieberman that isn’t true…but it goes to what McCain thinks about Conservatives and how we can expect him to act on our concerns…
Ohh…and McCain is in his 70s…making it very possible that he could die in office…would it matter if he picks a pro-choice, economically liberal VP if he dies in office?
I’ll let you answer that one for yourself…
For me I’ll just not vote for Potus…PERIOD!
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You mistake my discussion
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 8:53PM EDT (link)My point (I can’t speak for others here) is I completely understand, and believe it or not, I completely agree with you. I live in the former Speaker Denny Hastert’s district. I fully supported him, gave him money, talked him up, etc. How disappointed was I when he blew the great opportunity that was laid at his feet (along with President Bush) to establish a permanent conservative agenda for this country? I mean for goodness sake he was supporting the Rep with money in his freezer?!?!? Yes I’m cynical, yes I’m bitter, yes I’m tired of the same old lies corruption, etc. coming from Washington. But I realize (at least for myself) the adage - Satan’s greatest victory was convincing mankind he doesn’t exist. Deus Obamus is trying to sneak in under the radar under the hopechangehope lie, and there are plenty of uninformed voters out there who are ready to pull the lever for him, thinking they are doing the right thing. We know better. We know what he truly represents. Therefore, shame on us if he gets into the White House. When in life are we really presented with an obvious decision between two choices. More often than not it is a preference for the lesser of two evils. If Obama puts a justice on the SCOTUS, the impact will last for 50 years, not just the four he would be in office. If McCain puts one there, at least the odds are better for a moderate to strict constructionist getting the job. Please don’t read into my posts as trying to personally attack you or anyone here.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
I agree GC...I don't think he's that stupid...but if he pulls that trigger...he's shooting himself in the head.
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 8:55PM EDT (link)I’m just flabbergasted at this post and the thread that follows…Saturday really and finally turned me around…and after this discussion…I’m right back on the fence…Thanks all for helping your candidate win me over!
D* I’m mad!!!!
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You're not saying anything I haven't heard before...and struggled with myself...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 9:03PM EDT (link)I hope this is an academic arguement…but I go back to my bridge argument…who’s responsible for the loss:
The one who told you you will lose if you cross it…or the one who crossed it despite what he was told?
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and if that Potus dies in office after picking a moderately pro life, pro Iraq war, economically liberal VP?
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 9:07PM EDT (link)Methinks the Lieberman as VP crowd is being too cute by half!
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This arguement isn't about Obama...it's about McCain's pick for VP!!!
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 9:11PM EDT (link)I keep saying it…and I will keep saying it…a Pro Choice VP elects Obama…you can blame the SoCons who don’t vote for McCain or you can blame McCain for telling them all to go to hell…but the result will be the same!
So…you’ll be just as responsible as those you are calling names…whether you will acknowledge it or not!
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I feel the bigger issue at hand
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 9:15PM EDT (link)(at risk for a threadjack) is why do Republicans find themselves in the position of having a RINO being their greatest hope for retaining 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue? Ultimately, this is why this long, heated discussion exists. How did we allow our party to get hijacked by corruption, “big government conservatism,” earmarks, etc.? The people in this country (including me) are in the wilderness trying to choose the right path. How do we take back the Party? There will always be so much at stake. I hate to use the retrospectoscope, but the time to assert our conservative bona fides was when we controlled Congress and the White House. That was the time to put our feet down and say no to Medicare Part D, no to campaign finance, no to every freaking spending bill that didn’t get a veto. I don’t know, Ace. What is the answer?
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
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I AM Joe the Plumber
Whatever man take a pill and chill....you don't
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 9:16PM EDT (link)like the choices and you think you will tell McCain who to pick….as I said upthread for everyone who chooses to sit on their hands or vote third party I and millions like me will be out here persuading D’s and I’s to crossover and vote for McCain…and to answer your question about anything an R could do to make me not support them….infanticide and bringing our troops out of a war in dishonor….those items about cover it.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Maybe McCain Should Choose Now
Mary_Contrary Tuesday, August 19th at 9:17PM EDT (link)I have a hunch that Obama’s going to choose the female Governor of Kansas. She’ll pick up the female, Catholic vote that he lost.
Then McCain will have to choose someone to counter Obama’s female pick. Would Palin, then be the right choice? Or would it appear that McCain chose a female just because Obama did?
Jaded...this is a great straw man argument...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 9:35PM EDT (link)First off…I’ve said in a couple posts on this thread that I had a cathartic moment Saturday…I am…or at least was solidly in the McCain camp…so the “You don’t like the choices” doesn’t hold water and has no place in this discussion.
As I said…I am solidly…and even enthusiastically in the McCain camp…a Pro Choice VP changes the equation considerably however.
You can recruit all the Dems and Indies you want to try and push McCain over the finish line Jaded…what does that say about the party when your done? What will that say about the president if he has to rely on Democrats to get elected? What does it say about all of you that have the attitude that we’re going to do whatever the hell we want to and you need to just shut up? I’m frankly stunned to see you take this takck.
I’ll ask you the same question I’ve asked others in this thread…whose really to blame if Obama gets elected…the people who told McCain not to nominate a pro-choice VP or face losing their support…or McCain and his supporters for telling them all to go play with themselves and nominate a pro choice VP anyway?
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The answer is the people who sit at home!
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 9:39PM EDT (link)nt
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
you won't get any arguement from me here...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 9:41PM EDT (link)I would ad this proviso:
Will we stop the behavior you point out as a problem by supporting the party no matter what it does since it’s the party apparatus that allowed it…nay…that caused it to happen?
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With that I receive the back of your hand!
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 9:43PM EDT (link)It’s simple…if someone tells you not to do something or face the consequences…and they do it anyway…they take the responsibility for the consequences upon themselves!
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and so it shall be!
JadedByPolitics Tuesday, August 19th at 9:45PM EDT (link)nt
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Yes, and if McCain does do the
dbecraft Tuesday, August 19th at 9:47PM EDT (link)unexpected (and idiotic - he is toast)… then I along with many others will abandon him… Clear enough?
Formally known as Deagle… “Golf is a way of life…”
OK...let's say you tell your kids that if they do something they're not to do or you'll punish them...and they do it anyway...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 9:50PM EDT (link)do you visit the punishment upon them…or do you simply lie down and submit to their defiance?
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I might add that I was totally against
dbecraft Tuesday, August 19th at 9:50PM EDT (link)McCain until Saddleback… Now unless he does something stupid (as you think) he has my vote…otherwise, he can falter on his own…
Formally known as Deagle… “Golf is a way of life…”
I tempt the tempters of fate! Or was that
Mike gamecock DeVine Tuesday, August 19th at 10:00PM EDT (link)Cockstradamus? Hey, I know what you mean man. If anyone is capable of getting up on the maverick side of the bed, it’s J-Mac, but I think he wants to win and knows he would be taking an awful chance even if a Lieberman or Ridge promised to be pro-life if McCain turned out not to survive 4 years.
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Ace is a Lone Star away from an Alamo like self
Mike gamecock DeVine Tuesday, August 19th at 10:02PM EDT (link)slaughter. Bad taste? I know, I drank one, one weekend!
Ace, that fence you are on is Texas long and Texas wide. Why? The Obama side stinks to high heaven so bad you built on the right side of the fence all the way to the horizon!
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OK...after slamming my head against the wall in several threads asking a couple simple questions...and only getting a back of the hand answer to one of them...I'll ask them again!
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 10:09PM EDT (link)If someone is told by people who support him not to cross a certain bridge or lose their support then crosses that bridge, all the while calling them names and berating them as idiots…who’s really responsible for the results?
If McCain’s VP pick doesn’t matter: What happens if he nominates a moderately pro life VP who happens to be for finishing the Iraq war…but is a liberal in every other way…what happens if McCain dies in office?
Ditto #2 if the VP choice is Pro-Amnesty, Pro-Choice VP?
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I just read through this thread and I just realized this post about calling people names was directed at someone else Jaded...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 10:13PM EDT (link)I’m not sure how it anded up as a reply to you…If you took offense because of that…I apologize…That being said..my questions still stand as asked!
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Maybe you should create a diary
CV_Gas Tuesday, August 19th at 10:15PM EDT (link)about this discussion, as it is pertinent to the current thread, but trending away from the theme?
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Annoy a liberal - work hard and enjoy life
I AM Joe the Plumber
GC...it's the..."We can do whatever the hell we want...what are they gonna do about it" attitude that is turning me off...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 11:07PM EDT (link)I was actually working on the first diary I’ve posted in over a month about how McCain had scored a knockout at Saddleback as far as I was concerned…I hadn’t posted in so long for a lot of reasons, one being that I was sounding like a Johny one note constantly bashing McCain…Saturday, he finally won me over to enthusiastically supporting him to the point of donating and volunteering for his campaign…
That post won’t make the bandwidth now….because someone decided it would be a good idea to post a thread titled
The basic premise of this post is…(I paraphrase), “we can do what we want as RINOS cause what are Conservatives gonna do? Vote for Obama?” Well…no…we just won’t vote!
Included in this brilliant post I’m treated to this GEM:
I happen to think all the threats coming from the far right are overblown. If McCain were to choose Lieberman, there would be a few supporters who may be outraged, but for the most part I think he could weather the storm just fine. Threats from evangelicals ring hollow, (This is why evangekicals will feel the need to stay home…to prove the threats aren’t hollow), because you know they’re gonna vote, and they damn sure aren’t voting for Obama.(Really?)
and this:
(sure they will {sarc})
You know me…this is probably been the largest hurdle for me to clear concerning McCain from day one…it’s the…”I can do what I want and what are you gonna do about it.” attitude…Every time I give ground….every time I compromise my deeply held principles…It’s never enough…each compromise brings up demands that I compromise something else…and along comes another steaming pile of crap I’m expected to swallow…well…a line has to be drawn somewhere…and a Pro Choice VP is that line…I’ve compromised enough….I’ve eaten enough crap and I will swallow no more…and LIEBERMAN??? Go ahead and appoint LIEBERMAN for VP because if SOCONS stay home and refuse to vote for a McCain LIEBERMAN ticket they’re “Idiots”?…I’m an Idiot!
Again, Saturday was a catharsis for me…I finally got on board and began looking optimistically toward a McCain Presidency…What is this, Tuesday?…3 short days later and I get slapped in the face with a “We can piss on you if we want to and you can’t do anything about it post…WAY TO GO CHRIS JONES, JADED AND CV GAS! You’ve put me squarely back on the fence…hope you feel good about yourselves!
Finally…I’ve asked over and over again…If it doesn’t matter if McCain picks Lieberman or a Pro Choice Rino…what happens if a President McCain dies in office? Are you guys ready for a President Lieberman???…Well???…What kind of Justices would a President Ridge or Giuliani appoint because they would either become President if McCain dies in office…or they would be the Republican nominee in 2012…
Oh…and spare me any more of the, “A non-vote for McCain is a vote for Obama” crap! If I don’t vote…McCain and those shoving their thumbs in our eyes will have no one but themselves to thank for it!
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It's totally germain to the thread...
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 11:15PM EDT (link)We’re talking about the consequences of McCain picking a Democrat or a pro choice VP…why is discussing the possibility of becoming president if they are elected as VPs not germane?
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I'm with you ace...
Uma Richie Tuesday, August 19th at 11:32PM EDT (link)Although I would still vote for McCain, I would call the county GOP office to take my name off the volunteer list in case of a pro-choice VP pick.
I went to a McCain town hall meeting in PA last week, but had to watch Sen Specter warm up the crowd and then witness Gov Ridge and Sen Lieberman debark the bus with Sen McCain. Yes, Specter and Ridge are prominent Pennsylvanians, but what should have been a great day was marred by the feeling of having sharp objects stuck in my eyes. My feelings were too intense to gauge everyone else’s reaction, so I can’t make a general report on the issue.
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“We hold our heads high, despite the price we have paid, because freedom is priceless.” -Lech Walesa
ooi ve
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 11:33PM EDT (link)nt
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Sorry, I'm not following
Uma Richie Tuesday, August 19th at 11:36PM EDT (link)With apologies, I don’t understand your reply.
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“We hold our heads high, despite the price we have paid, because freedom is priceless.” -Lech Walesa
I'm not sure how to spell it...but it's jewish for "Oh My!"
AceInTX Tuesday, August 19th at 11:49PM EDT (link):>)
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you could have that boy I sure
Mike gamecock DeVine Tuesday, August 19th at 11:57PM EDT (link)hate watching obama and the left in congress destroy my country attitude which is waYYYworse than that maverick attitude.
Nah, you don’t have to grow up.
Obama can’t win no matter what McCain does. No matter what aces do.
we don’t whine and take balls home when threatened by marxists named democrats
and neither will you
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Whatever...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 1:40AM EDT (link)You either don’t get my point or you’re part of the Problem…I will say it again…I was enthusiastic after McCain spoke so well for himself at Saddleback…My problem is the RMSP types like Chris Jones using the derisive tones of the KOS Clowns and the rest of the looney left to trash me and my belief that is driving a wedge between me and McCain right now.
Lieberman? As VP…are you kidding me??? and I’m being attacked as a Far Right Winger for daring to say that’s a bridge too far?
In the words of the immortal Bob Dole…”Where’s the outrage?
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Electing POTUS is not a therapy group
gensec Wednesday, August 20th at 1:47AM EDT (link)Chris,
You may be surprised by all the anguished whining you got in response to your presumably uncontroversial position. Maybe it was the title.
Might I suggest you add a few qualifying words to the title to avoid confusion, retitle it as “Conservatives with at least half a brain who care more about their country than their hurt feelings Will Support McCain No Matter Who He Chooses.” Of course that subset probably includes 99% of conservatives, but the marginalized losers can post like everbody else. As the Ronulans showed us, the propensity to post threats of Republican doom if we don’t submit to their will can be higher among the fringe too tiny to really matter in real life elections.
Their two basic objections to your thesis are:
1) The self-appointed guardians of True ConservatismTM, Value Voting, whatever, can’t let the Republican Party get away with it’s long standing plot to defy their will; thus they would at least passively help inflict a President Obama upon America, as a way to force the ignorant/depraved majority of Republican voters to submit to their betters in the future.
and/or
2) The Republican Party daring to nominate that scoundrel McCain was a slap in their face, and if they don’t at least get a pat on the head and flowers with a VP nominee they approve of, how could they possibly vote against Obama (in a way that matters) and still maintain any sense of self-respect?
Of course the idiocy of (1) is obvious to anybody with half a brain, who understands that if you want to get your way in a democracy, you have to persuade a lot of other people to agree with you. A very small minority of my fellow McCain despisers are in a snit that most of our fellow Republicans disagreed with us, and somehow got the harebrained idea that threatening to screw America with a President Obama is an effective way to influence McCain and Republicans to do what they want. Wake up guys, if you failed during the primaries to persuade your fellow Americans/Republicans of the wisdom of your ideas on the merits, threats to deliberately screw our country and our soldiers with a President you know will be a disaster isn’t going to make Republican Americans any more accomodating to your position.
And the reasoning of (2) makes sense for a school girl deciding between going to the prom with the substandard boy who asked, vs. staying home to paint her toenails. Going to the prom is about her, and if the boy isn’t up to her standards she’s right to sit it out. Electing a President is about our country, and on election day you know either Obama or McCain will be elected President. Someone who doesn’t cast a vote for the candidate they sincerely believe is better (or less bad) for their country because of their hurt feelings is too narcissistic to tell the difference between a prom date and electing a President.
Just to be clear, if somebody honestly believes America will be better off with Obama as President rather than McCain, commanding our troops and appointing Supreme Court justices, then I respect their decision to vote for Obama however misguided I believe them to be. My contempt is for walking into the voting booth in November when you know either Obama or McCain will be President, and deliberately choosing not to vote for what’s best (less bad) for your country.
Simple answers
gensec Wednesday, August 20th at 2:06AM EDT (link)If someone is told by people who support him not to cross a certain bridge or lose their support then crosses that bridge, all the while calling them names and berating them as idiots…who’s really responsible for the results?
Same answer as if somebody says “I’ll explode this bomb if you don’t do what I want.” The guy carrying out the threat is still entirely responsible, even if the recipient of the threat didn’t submit to his demands.
And if hurt feelings over “calling them names and berating them as idiots” is enough to persuade some jackass to vote differently from the way he would on the basis of what’s good for his country, then he’s obviously far too susceptible to trivial nonsense to bother reasoning with.
If McCain’s VP pick doesn’t matter: What happens if he nominates a moderately pro life VP who happens to be for finishing the Iraq war…but is a liberal in every other way…what happens if McCain dies in office? Ditto #2 if the VP choice is Pro-Amnesty, Pro-Choice VP?
If I believe the odds are better for my country with McCain plus whatever VP (even one I despise) rather than Obama with his VP, my duty is to support McCain. If I believe my country has better prospects with a President Obama, my duty is to support Obama.
I see it that way because election day is about what’s best for my country, which one of those two will lead it; it’s not about indulging a snit over being stuck with a Republican nominee near the bottom of my preferences.
I'll sneak in while their sleeping...5x5
$peciallist Wednesday, August 20th at 2:33AM EDT (link)good job..reply should be interesting
its Oy vey, Ace
David Hinz Wednesday, August 20th at 4:16AM EDT (link)and its Yiddish
The Minority Report — The HinzSight Report — TMRB.tv — MFOB “Miss Tagart, do you know the hallmark of the second-rater? It’s resentment of another man’s achievement.”
5 5 5
JadedByPolitics Wednesday, August 20th at 6:51AM EDT (link)nt
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
5
jdub19 Wednesday, August 20th at 6:57AM EDT (link)n/t
” Got to love the Lord for making things like that.”
Morally Compromised
5 5 5 excellent analysis!
JadedByPolitics Wednesday, August 20th at 7:02AM EDT (link)nt
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Thanks for clearing that up.
Uma Richie Wednesday, August 20th at 7:47AM EDT (link)I did a search for “ooi” thinking that it was a reference that I was unfamiliar with and found that a guy named Jeff Ooi is the blogger king of Malaysia. So I assumed it was over my head and retired for the evening.
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“We hold our heads high, despite the price we have paid, because freedom is priceless.” -Lech Walesa
I don't understand
cdbymatt Wednesday, August 20th at 8:19AM EDT (link)why people vote for parties instead of candidates. Answer me this: the type of judges McCain says he likes are the type judges who know his biggest legislative accomplishment is unconstitutional, so why should I trust that those are the type of judges he will nominate?
My reasoning for voting Barr is so the Republican party can track my disgust with them, that and I am becoming more of a libertarian each day. If I just sit out then they do not know what happened with me, but if I vote for Barr then they know exactly what happened. Further, it is impossible for one man to destroy this country in 4 years. But it is possible for one man to expose liberal policies in 4 years. So I do not subscribe to all of the doom and gloom put out there by Republicans. There are a few generations of our society who need to learn that extreme liberal policies are terrible. With all that said I do believe that McCain will win the election and create a moderate Republican party that I will never be a member of again.
I hope you all know that Fred Thompson is in charge
JadedByPolitics Wednesday, August 20th at 8:37AM EDT (link)of McCains Supreme picks right? That says a whole lot about the type of judges he is going to pick….suffice it to say I believe McCain has seen that his campaign finance legislation has turned into something even worse than it was before….I don’t see him giving a second thought about how a Supreme would vote on that particular issue.
If you don’t like the man fine but I rarely have seen him pander to anyone and he says what he means and sticks to it….I would never suggest the man is in anyway a liar however on the opposite end of the spectrum the other candidate can’t hold a position longer than 24 hours.
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
Ace, over 40 more days left for columns threatening to not vote for McCain
Mike gamecock DeVine Wednesday, August 20th at 9:08AM EDT (link)enjoy
Ace, “the problem”, they be many since Eve bit the apple.
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"whatever" enthusiasm sounds valley girlish
Mike gamecock DeVine Wednesday, August 20th at 9:09AM EDT (link)not becoming of aces in texas
get realistic and get enthusiastic over the the bottom live facts and not leave your emotions laid out for McCain to either affirm or rebuff each day like he’s different grades of dope
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I'm sorry if you think
CV_Gas Wednesday, August 20th at 9:50AM EDT (link)this is an arguement. I believe I’ve made a good faith effort at having rational discourse regarding the topic at hand. I recognize, however, that once ego takes the forefront of the discussion, progress in a rational exchange of ideas is next to impossible. Good luck with your stand. Hopefully we won’t be faced with the horror of an Obama SCOTUS nomination.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
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I AM Joe the Plumber
I agree...I was exasperated when I wrote that...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 9:53AM EDT (link)As for the threatening to not vote for McCain…what I wrote above this has nothing to do with simply not voting for McCain. My whole point in dealing with this Diary is the attitude that the Party can do whatever it wants because SoCons will just go along anyway…so by all means nominate Lieberman as VP…the OP even advocates nominating a Democrat as the Republican VP nominee. WTF…are you kidding me. To ad insult to Injury, the OPer slaps SoCons around using the derisive terms of the Kosites when refering to us…
When I point out that there is a bridge too far and the Party can’t just do whatever it wants I’m then treated to the broken record “A non vote for McCain is a vote for Obama,” “McCain is not as bad a Obama” blah blah blah.
Finally GOPbot comes off with the foolish notion that McCain’s VP pic doesn’t matter…well it does! I’ve asked over and over again…what if McCain picks Lieberman…or Ridge…and dies in office just in time for Ginsburg or Stevens or one of the other pro abortion judges retires…and no one will answer the frigging question…they just continue with the pull to responses that “McCain is better than Obama”, and “a non vote for POTUS is a vote for Obama”
Yet again I point to the fact that I’d finally reached a point where I was ready to jump in to support McCain with Money and time because he’d shown me a side of him at Saddleback that I’d never seen. So now I’m face with a dilemma…do I go ahead and jump in…and prove to the Chris Jones’ of the world that he’s right after all…they can indeed piss all over us…and we’ll just dutifully roll over and lick their boots, or do we just stay home and prove them wrong. Can I really stay excited about supporting a candidate who’s supporters hold me in such contempt?
Then you troop in and repeat the same blather…at the point when I threw out the “Whatever” post…I’d become so exasperated I didn’t have the heart to continue the argument.
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LOL...Blogger king of Malasia?
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 9:55AM EDT (link)LOL…who’d have guessed?
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Thanks Dave
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 9:56AM EDT (link)nt
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Look...My support is conditioned upon whether a candidate supports my positions...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 10:12AM EDT (link)If McCain nominates Lieberman and SoCons stay home…it would be McCain who ignored the warnings and McCain who made the decision that cost him the election so you’re wrong on the ones staying home having sole responsibility.
I never advocated not voting for a candidate solely because someone called someone names so you are making a straw man arguement. the name calling is simply another straw on the Camels back and it’s a symptom of the arrogance and contempt the Rockefeller wing of this party and the Bosses who control the party nominating process…I’m simply pointing out the stupidity of going out and attacking your natural allies who are already reluctant brides.
Finally…you make a play at answering my question about what happens if McCain dies in office after nominating Lieberman…but your reply is incoherent at best…I want to know if you are prepared for a Lieberman Presidency if McCain nominates him?…Ditto Tom Ridge…who might be president if Ginsburg or Stevens retires?
You can take that for what it’s worth and stick the Jackass comment where it belongs!
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Let me get this right...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 10:24AM EDT (link)It’s called support man…for some of us…politics is more than simply winning an election…the Party is demanding our support…most people support a candidate because they agree with them…I agree with McCain on about 60% and I support him…especially after Saturday…but I owe him nothing…I’m not a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party…I’m a Republican because I agree with the party’s supposed beliefs…but will I walk blindly off a cliff simply because you say I should…I don’t think so.
I wonder if you’d be taking the same tack if McCain were talking about nominating Hillary as his VP…or Ted Kennedy since he’s written so much legislation with him?
My objections and comments are all directed at the arrogance and condescension from posters like Chris who insist on calling names and keep the base stirred up against this nominee with their name calling and continued insults…thanks for proving my point!
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Pulling a Kowalski...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 10:28AM EDT (link)Take the original post and insert Huckabee where Chris wrote in Lieberman…I guarantee you’ll get a hue and cry over and above what I or some others have written here from a totally different crowd…and I’d be willing to bet that you and Chris and Jaded would be first in line to start yelling you won’t vote!
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I think you're right, aceintx
ZootSuit Wednesday, August 20th at 10:47AM EDT (link)I admit that if McCain’s VP choice were Mike Huckabee, there is a very good chance that I would sit out this election. I’ve said it before and I will say it again. Indeed, I think the two of us may have had a few arguments on the subject.
As for McCain choosing a pro-choice running mate, I generally agree with you even here. But it’s not just that I personally think McCain should choose a pro-life running mate; it’s that McCain has already said that he would choose a pro-life running mate. If he doesn’t do so know, it strikes me as him showing a lack of integrity.
However, I will say that for some reason, I don’t put Tom Ridge in quite the same class as other pro-choice Republicans. For some odd reason, despite his pro-choice bona fides, Tom Ridge projects a certain “gravitas” or “aura” that makes me think that, despite his personal pro-choice beliefs, he sincerely respects and understands the role of judges and would support (and appoint, if he were to succeed John McCain) constitutionalist judges.
And at the risk of starting a flame war, that is something I don’t say about Rudy Guiliani.
Thus, personally, if plus came to shove, I could support Ridge as VP: although, again, please do not misunderstand me, Tom Ridge is definitely NOT my first choice. However, I could not support Lieberman and probably not even Guiliani.
***** Unrepentant African-American nationalist, Unapologetic African-American conservative!
Ok, can of worms, again
CV_Gas Wednesday, August 20th at 11:04AM EDT (link)I really am not trying to stir things up, but I have to ask you zootsuit, which is more likely to lead to more dead babies, an ill-advised VP choice or a Deus Obamus Presidency? What power, ultimately does the VP have over choosing a SCOTUS justice? The SCOTUS is, ultimately, the branch of government in the position to address the pro-life/pro-death issue. Yes, in theory, the VP MAY be in a position to choose a justice, but the actual president DEFINITELY IS in a position to choose a justice.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
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I AM Joe the Plumber
I can go with everything you say here.
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 11:07AM EDT (link)and yes…I’m positive you and I went nose to nose several times during the primaries over Huckabee. I no longer support him and would like to see him in the Senate…but I’d never advocate him as a nominee for POTUS.
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If John McCain choose a pro-choicer after initially saying he wouldn't
ZootSuit Wednesday, August 20th at 11:14AM EDT (link)What makes you think that McCain would choose constitutionalist judges and justices who would uphold the constitution and not adjudicate their own personal moral (or immoral) philosophy?
It’s a question of integrity with me.
And I write the above even saying that, all in all, I think John McCain has an overall excellent record on judges and being pro-life. Indeed, unlike most people here, I actually think the “Gang of 14″ deal was actually good for conservatives until Bill Frist decided he had no backbone. But that is probably another story.
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yes, I agree with you its just that McCain is
Mike gamecock DeVine Wednesday, August 20th at 11:32AM EDT (link)and we will have to deal with him as We the People next year like we did on amnesty and oil drilling, etc.
I do agree that we should oppose before the fact, a pro choice VP. We have shown and he has shown that he does listen to us.
I think he would have a pro-life admin whether his VP is or not. VPs don’t set policy, but Presidents can die and leave the policy to the VP.
more later
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CV...I can argue rationally...when the other person is willing to do the same...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 1:23PM EDT (link)and maybe I shouldn’t have thrown your name in with the others…I again ask the question…If McCain picks a pro-abortion candidate…or Lieberman…are you prepared for a Lieberman presidency…or a pick of a SCOTUS Justice from a Ridge or Giuliani?
Would you vote for McCain if he nominated Huckabee? Ron Paul? etc?
I really think this is a BS article because I don’t think McCain is suicidal where his campaign is concerned…so this is an academic argument/discussion…and my reactions are mainly to the condescension and arrogance of some of the posters here.
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Here's the best answer to the Original Post I could come up with!
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 1:47PM EDT (link)Conservatives Will Support McCain No Matter Who He Chooses So He Should Nominate Mike Huckabee
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Evading the point
gensec Wednesday, August 20th at 1:58PM EDT (link)… or failing reading comprehension
I never advocated not voting for a candidate solely because someone called someone names so you are making a straw man arguement. the name calling is simply another straw on the Camels back and it’s a symptom of the arrogance and contempt
So you would advocate electing the candidate who is worse for your country partly because some of the opposing candidate’s supporters called you names?? Just where does what’s good for your country rank in your “logic” for deciding whom to vote for?
Rather than accuse me of making a straw man argument for criticizing your own threat to base your vote at least partly on your bruised emotions, the best way to keep that supposed “straw man” out of the discussion is for you to not whine about hurt feelings in the first place.
the Rockefeller wing of this party and the Bosses who control the party nominating process
Advocates of electing Obama as a way to get back at McCain sure find creative ways to whine. Get a grip, and face the fact that it was the majority of your fellow Republican voters who made you so upset. It wasn’t bosses imposing McCain on an unwilling Republican electorate; if anything it was the other way around. SoCons and McCain critics are overrepresented among the political activists who find the time to show up and take over party organizations. It was among the much larger number of “rank & file” Republicans who only show up to vote, that McCain was either the favorite or second choice when their favorite dropped out.
Finally…you make a play at answering my question about what happens if McCain dies in office after nominating Lieberman…but your reply is incoherent at best…I want to know if you are prepared for a Lieberman Presidency if McCain nominates him?…Ditto Tom Ridge…who might be president if Ginsburg or Stevens retires?
What is it that’s so hard about my statement for you to comprehend? I said:
I don’t want either Ridge or Liebermann as VP much less President, but if it’s McCain-<either> vs. Obama-<anybody>, it’s a very easy call for me that my country is better off with McCain as President. And I would much rather have either Ridge or Lieberman as President than Obama.
Are you saying that most people would have trouble figuring that out from my original statement? So why did you have such difficulty? Is the concept of voting based on which of the two candidates is better, aka less bad, for your country so alien that the obvious conclusions escape you?
You should try that approach to deciding how to vote, at least as an intellectual exercise. Then try posting a diary arguing why your country would be less bad off with Obama as Commander in Chief than it would be with McCain as President and Ridge or Lieberman as VP
You're still in schoolgirl prom date mode
gensec Wednesday, August 20th at 2:13PM EDT (link)I agree with McCain on about 60% and I support him…especially after Saturday…but I owe him nothing…I’m not a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party…I’m a Republican because I agree with the party’s supposed beliefs…but will I walk blindly off a cliff simply because you say I should…I don’t think so.
Few if anybody are arguing about what you owe McCain or the GOP. It’s about what you owe America. I said “if somebody honestly believes America will be better off with Obama as President rather than McCain, commanding our troops and appointing Supreme Court justices, then I respect their decision to vote for Obama however misguided I believe them to be.”
So if you think our country would be better off with Obama as President rather than McCain with the wrong VP, then make that argument. But deep down I think you know how ridiculous that would be, so that’s why you stick to the emotional rants that evade the issue of what’s good for your country.
I wonder if you’d be taking the same tack if McCain were talking about nominating Hillary as his VP…or Ted Kennedy since he’s written so much legislation with him?
I would hate having either one of them. But since my country doesn’t have the option of staying home and painting her toenails for the next four years, but instead will have either McCain or Obama as Commander in Chief, I would support McCain even with an awful VP over Obama.
Do you believe your country would be better off with Obama as President in your hypothetical? Or is arguing in terms of what’s best for your country a distraction from what you consider really important in deciding how to vote?
OK...I can dance that Jig...if you get right down to it...the question if a McCain/Pro-Choice nominee would be better than an Obama administration would absolutely be in the mix when making my descission.
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 2:45PM EDT (link)I think I would say unequivocally that A McCain/Lieberman choice would tip me to the argument that we’d have never gotten Reagan if Ford had won in 1976.
You know better than to think I’d duck or evade saying what I think…I’m willing to put it out there and take my lumps…so…have at it!
:>)
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I don't throw my vote away
Haley37 Wednesday, August 20th at 2:57PM EDT (link)When I participate in the process by casting my vote for someone who supports my positions, it’s not throwing my vote away as you term it.
The 'Gang of 14' deal cost us the Senate in 2006
Haley37 Wednesday, August 20th at 3:07PM EDT (link)If you think otherwise, you are fooling yourself. That sellout lost a lot of good will with people who had spent years and years working hard to get more Republicans elected so we could invoke the Constitutional Option.
McCain ruined everything those volunteers and loyal party members (including me at the time) had accomplished. Many became despondent and lost faith in the GOP to do what was right. When I think of all the $ I threw away on this party just to have the rug pulled out from under us by that self-serving jerk, it makes me sick.
The ‘Gang of 14′ was fool’s gold, and look at the fool who led the way.
what goes around, comes around
SC picks
RJD Wednesday, August 20th at 3:18PM EDT (link)Of course, this argument is probably moot, anyway. Even if McCain wins, the Senate will most likely turn more Liberal. No hardcore Conservative nominee is going to be confirmed. Having said that, I still hold out hope that McCain will select center-right possibilities that might have a chance.
Wrong! Iraq cost us 2006 (although I personally support victory)
ZootSuit Wednesday, August 20th at 3:55PM EDT (link)The meme on Iraq in 2006 was not simply that “Bush lied” to get us in but also that he neither he nor Rumsfeld had a strategy for victory. Which, being honest, is an argument that I think has some merit. The GOP was routed in 2006 not because Republicans did not turn out to vote but because “independents” had grown tired of what they thought was Bush’s incompetence.
Look at the polls. Republicans did come out in 2006. Again, it was just that independents came out more for the Democrats.
As for the Gang of 14 deal, it was a winner for Republicans until Bill Frist lost his backbone (that is, admittedly, if Frist ever had a backbone to begin with).
First of all, despite the revision of history that is going on now, it was more likely that the “constitutional option” would have failed. Even Rick Santorum even admits this now.
To quote Senator Santorum:
Among the “qualified conservative jurists” who would not have been confirmed without the work of the Gang of 14 include Priscilla Owen, Janice Rogers Brown, and William Pryor.
I have and still do disagree with John McCain on many things but the Gang of 14 is not one of them. Sorry, but many conservatives are living in a dream world if they think the deal itself was a loser. Whether you want to face reality and admit it or not, conservatives owe John McCain their gratitude for that.
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To "kowalski" myself, this part is the Rick Santorum quote:
ZootSuit Wednesday, August 20th at 4:03PM EDT (link)Many conservatives have given McCain poor marks for his involvement in the Gang of 14. I was in leadership pushing hard for a showdown with the Democrats on using the “Constitutional Option” to end their filibuster of judicial nominations. The Gang of 14 broke the impasse, and it probably was for the best. I was the one counting votes on that issue, and I was much less certain of success than others. In the end, the Gang deal resulted in numerous confirmations of qualified conservative jurists.
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OK...first off...you're both right...The Gang of 14 and Bush's seeming lack of a winning strategy were factors in 2006 as was the amnesty fight, the out of control spending, Republican corruption etc...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 4:13PM EDT (link)With all those issues combined…Republicans alienated almost every constituency it had…
And before you tear into me with the Republicans turned out but Indies didn’t mem…consider this…Indies who tended to vote Republican in the 90s did so because of their positions on at least one of the issues mentioned…Some Indies hold Judges as a deciding factor…but agree with the Dems on everything else…or are willing to be swayed by them…with some Indies it’s spending…with some it’s corruption…on the flip side…Some Indies are so against some issues that Republicans pushed them off for being on the wrong side of it…such as Immigration…I know the Party was overall against Amnesty…but with McCain and Bush pushing for it…the impression was the Repubs were for Amnesty while the Dems were perceived as against it because they played coy
As a solidly 3 legged Republican…Republicans can fall flat on one, or even two legs of the stool and still get me to turn out for them…with Indies who vote Republican because they care most about one leg of the stool…if you cut that leg off in front of them…they’re gone…And I’ll say this…unless our Republican Leadership decides it’s going to represent all three legs of the stool…those Indies who were with us on one leg will not come back.
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No, you're wrong
Haley37 Wednesday, August 20th at 4:17PM EDT (link)Republican squeamishness is what lost us the House and Senate in 2006.
You see, when the heat is on and the beltway media machine (the one that already HATES the GOP) starts attacking the GOP for not compromising or being bi-partisan the Republicans lose their nerves, pee their little pants and run like scared girls to the other side of the aisle to ’sell out’ their voters.
They SOLD US OUT on judges with the GANG OF 14 and they sold us out on IRAQ when the going got tough because they HAVE NO SPINES!
They were all more than happy to stand in the Rose Garden with President Bush when we deposed Sadaam and defeated his army so quickly, but let things get a little bad and they ran away and tried to distance themselves from the president. Even Rush Limbaugh warned them in August of 2006 that this was a bad political move and that Republicans who distanced themselves from Bush would suffer. He was right and the cowards on the Hill got what they deserved.
The point is* Democrats NEVER compromise. When is our side going to quick being afraid of the likes of fools like Chris Matthews and start acting like the * people we elected?!?!?
No more McCains, Grahams, Hagels, DeWines, Vionovichs or Chafees! You either fight for your party’s voters and stand with your president, or you get the hell out of the way. That was the message of 2006, and that’s a cold, hard fact.
I thought I was replying to GC...so the following doesn't apply to you...or maybe it does?
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 4:18PM EDT (link)Its true…but I don’t know if you know better…so It doesn’t necessarily apply to you…unless you want it too.
:>)
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My reply is to ZootSuit
Haley37 Wednesday, August 20th at 4:21PM EDT (link)np
Ace, if you aren't careful
Brian Simpson Wednesday, August 20th at 4:22PM EDT (link)you are going to make the site Directors reconsider the unlimited characters in the comment title.
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I (mostly) agree with you, aceintx
ZootSuit Wednesday, August 20th at 4:46PM EDT (link)There were a lot of reasons why independents did not turn out for the GOP in 2006. But I will still argue that the major reason was it looked like Iraq was becoming a quagmire. But also, there was Republican corruption, amnesty and government spending (where, incidentally, John McCain is one of the strongest and most conservative on this subject). But one reason I do not think the Republicans lost the independent vote was because of the Gang of 14 deal.
The reason is, those independents who tend to vote Republican because they value “judges” as the most important issue were, all in all, please with the compromise. Again, the deal got great jurist like Priscilla Owen, William Pryor and (especially, IMHO) Janice Rogers Brown confirmed.
And please note, your argument is different from that of Haley37. You are arguing that issues kept independents from voting Republican: an argument that I agree with except that I would not include the Gang of 14 deal among them.
Haley37’s argument is that the Gang of 14 deal caused many Republicans not to vote for the GOP. That argument is simply factually wrong. Despite everything, Republicans did get out and vote in 2006; again, the reason we did so badly was not that Republicans stayed home, we did so badly because independents stayed home or disproportionately voted for the Democrats.
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You are factually wrong, Haley37
ZootSuit Wednesday, August 20th at 4:53PM EDT (link)Your entire argument is based on a false premise. The fact is, despite all the legitimate dissatisfaction with Republican leaderships and officeholders, the Republican rank-and-file did get out and vote in 2006. We lost in 2006 because independents stayed home and/or disproportionately voted for the Democrats, and not because Republicans stayed home.
Look at any polling analysis during that time. Indeed, you can even ask our resident polling expert, Adam C. Everything shows that the reason Republicans did so poorly in 2006 is because independents were voting against them.
Your argument completely ignores that fact!
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LOL...Niel and I have thrown that back and forth a few times...LOL
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 5:46PM EDT (link)I get going and forget I’m in the title line…LOL
Oh well…hopefully they won’t take me to task for it…
:>)
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Some jurists also got thrown under the bus...and what good did it do in the long run since the Dems have all bush's nominees locked up in committee now.
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 5:57PM EDT (link)Some times the fight is worth fighting even if you lose because it draws a stark contrast between you and your opponent…By compromising…Republicans just became just like the Democrats in may people’s minds…
Just like the gang of ten recently…the timing couldn’t have been worse…by compromising as they did…some justices got thrown under the bus…(I forget the names now)…and the gang of 14 took an issue that was cutting against the Democrats off the table…There are single issue Indies who have traditionally voted Republican because they understand what’s wrong with legislating from the bench…and judicial overreach…and they did stay home…so I think you can include them in the 2006 results.
Again I say…you are both right…and the Reagan coalition won’t be put back together till our leadership stops playing to single issues…and starts promoting the total package of Conservative Government!
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Not to be nit-picking
Haley37 Wednesday, August 20th at 6:27PM EDT (link)I do personally know a lifetime Republican voter who was so upset about the GANG OF 14 capitulation that he didn’t vote in 2006.
Granted, that is just one voter but he has been voting GOP for almost 22 years. I was surprised when he told me he didn’t vote. I don’t skip votes but I won’t vote for someone who goes turn-coat on me either.
Regardless of what numbers you want to point to, the GOP is scared to fight for the agenda they run on and it does cost them at the polls.
William Myers and Henry Saad
ZootSuit Wednesday, August 20th at 7:01PM EDT (link)were the jurist thrown under the bus but I would MUCH rather have William Pryor, Janice Rogers Brown, and Priscilla Owen without William Myers and Henry Saad than have none of the above.
If your argument is that nothing was done after the Gang of 14 deal, I wholeheartedly agree. But that is not the issue with the deal itself, it is an issue with Frist. He lacked the fortitude to push through any other nominees and force an up or down vote.
Also, I blame Bush, too, because he never twisted any arms to get any of his nominees through. I explicitly remember him saying that his nominees being stalled in committe was a “Senate issue” and he would not interfere.
But there are at least one big differences between the “Gang of 10″ deal and the “Gang of 14″ deal. at least the “Gang of 14″ deal did get us something — three very good if not great judges — who would not be on the bench otherwise — while the “Gang of 10″ deal got us nothing.
Again, before the “Gang of 14″ deal, the Republicans had nothing. Moreover, as even people like Santorum now admit, without the deal, they would still have nothing.
Indeed, if you remember correctly, the DailyKos crowd and the MSM were absolutely livid when the deal was announced. They knew that they had lost in the deal. Unfortunately for us, no one knew how spineless Bill Frist was in not bringing more nominees to the floor when he had the opportunity.
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I will give you the anecdotal incident
ZootSuit Wednesday, August 20th at 7:04PM EDT (link)But that still does not change the fact that the reason Republicans lost somuch in 2006 was not because of low Republican turnout but because independents went big for the Democrats.
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Fist there was no follow up so the deal was pointless...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 7:18PM EDT (link)You are right about where the GO14 and the GO10 are different…but where they are similar is in both instances…the Dems were losing the argument…had the Republicans held their ground…had the cave in not occurred…the Dems would have folded like a limp dish rag…it hasn’t worked with the GO10 because we basically shot Little Lord Fauntleroy and Saxby Shambles down before they got that plane off the ground…McCain got his compromise…and we took it in the back side…I disagree with Santorum on this point and again assert that sometimes the fight is worth having even if you lose because the fight defines your opponent as out of step with the main stream…Santorum is arguing about head counts not public opinion and how it was running against the Dems.
I’ve agreed with you that the GO14 wasn’t the issue that caused the 2006 debacle…but I maintain it was an issue.
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Again...I point you to my stool analogy where Indies are concerned...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 7:58PM EDT (link)People stick with a winner…the Republican leadership has proven themselves to be anything but…That’s why they lost in 2006 and why they will continue to lose till they grow some testicles!
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Balanced on two legs
SteveLA Wednesday, August 20th at 8:09PM EDT (link)Ace that’s where you’re wrong.
The Republican party in 2005 leading up to the election became balanced on two legs only.
The war leg, which at the time was not going well.
The social conservative leg with insertion of Federal powers into the Terry Schaivo affair.
The fiscal leg was gone, with Tom Delay leading the Republican Congress in an orgy of spending reviling anything the Democrats had ever done. Also known as the “Spending like a Drunken Sailor”.
As we approach this election, the war leg has healed, the spending fiscal leg has been promised to be repaired by John McCain, and the we have a candidate that is not beholding to the social conservative/evangelical wing of the Republican party.
I think the brand is band on the mend.
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Competency over ideological purity
I think the Schievo thing was a dumb move...while I agreed with what they were trying to accomplish...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 8:24PM EDT (link)which was stopping a human being from being starved to death…I don’t agree at all with the approach…i.e. tailoring a law to apply to only one individual…but I think you place too much emphasis on that one issue…after that dog an pony show was over…I doubt 20% of the country could tell you what that whole thing was about…the Spending thing is valid too as I mentioned…as was the Gang of 14 and immigration.
I shouldn’t have used the stool analogy because when you boil it all down…all the issues don’t fit so nicely into a single leg…but has elements in each…for instance…It might surprise you that I didn’t agree with the faith based initiative…and that’s one that applies to Social issues to a lesser extent, (because the number of SoCons that bought into the Compassionate Conservative crap was way over blown)..and to Fiscal issues more so since it was used by vote buyers to dump money on their constituents.
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Hey Ace...I guess your off work today?
$peciallist Wednesday, August 20th at 8:29PM EDT (link)n/p
The only possible vote lost due to the Shiavo case was
Mike gamecock DeVine Wednesday, August 20th at 8:29PM EDT (link)Terry’s
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It was the case that made the case
SteveLA Wednesday, August 20th at 8:34PM EDT (link)The American people were in my estimation uncomfortable with Bush’s overt evangelical tone and rhetoric, they were looking for the smoking gun. Schaivo gave them that smoking gun.
For those of us who are Federalist leaning Republicans, the actions of the social conservative movement in pushing over the state rights of Florida, and for that matter the courts of Florida where the case had been litigated ad nauseum in the Schaivo affair was a repudiation of Federalist and 10th Amendment principles.
To use a Pendulum swing analogy, Schaivo marked the zenith of the swing to the Republican party to the social conservative Right, with McCain and the primaries demonstrating that the party has moved back to the Center Right, while the Donks move further Left.
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Competency over ideological purity
In your view
SteveLA Wednesday, August 20th at 8:36PM EDT (link)As a Southerner who became a Republican because of Federal intervention in schools based on some higher calling, there was not a whole heck of a lot of difference of having the Federal Elephant’s nose once again telling a state what to do.
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Competency over ideological purity
your 'case' opinion is simply silly
pilgrim Wednesday, August 20th at 8:49PM EDT (link)It was not only Republicans who hated the Florida judges ruling for Terry to die via starvation. There were also a lot of liberals and democrats like Jesse Jackson, Tom Harkin, Ralph Nader, and Alan Dershowitz who opposed this. This was not a perfect split among political party lines. Saying it is too is just silly.
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As you wish
SteveLA Wednesday, August 20th at 8:59PM EDT (link)You’re welcome to your world view same as I am.
I think the Republican brand was harmed by turning their back on Federalist, 10th amendment principles by inserting the Federal Government into the Schaivo affair. The primary proves my contention in that no self identified social conservative/evangelical went very far in the race.
I would also point out that Fred Thompson, who was quite beloved by Conservatives, was not exactly big on the whole affair because of his own personal history.
In my view, it was the apex of the pendulum swing the social conservative right with things moving more moderate.
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Competency over ideological purity
No...just popping in and out as I work...I'm working in the office today.
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 10:52PM EDT (link)If you’re wondering why you haven’t seen anything from me lately…I’ve been on self imposed sabbatical for a while because I realised I was sounding like a Johnny One Note constantly bashing McCain…He won me over at Saddle Back…so here I am.
:>)
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It's funny steve...that you seem to be the only one here that keeps harping on this issue.
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 10:56PM EDT (link)As I said…I’m as pro life as any man alive…but tailoring a law at the federal level to apply to one individual was dumb. I agree with you there,
But to say that was the reason the Republicans lost the 2006 elections is silly to be charitable.
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Cast YOUR vote..It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks...just vote...love you
$peciallist Wednesday, August 20th at 11:06PM EDT (link)n/p
Ill vote...I think this is an acedemic arguement and I think McCain will do the right thing...
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 11:16PM EDT (link)I’m serious…he finally broke the ice with me…and I plan a blog on my cathartic experience and my Mae Culpa.
He can still blow it with the VP Pick…but I never thought I’d say this…I trust him.
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Ace...time for a laugh..this is my All time favorite
$peciallist Wednesday, August 20th at 11:23PM EDT (link)Porky's? Brings back Juvenile memories...LOL
AceInTX Wednesday, August 20th at 11:41PM EDT (link)nt
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in your view - as if - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine Thursday, August 21st at 10:21AM EDT (link)nt
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