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What Makes a Conservative? [Restored]

What is a conservative? A few years ago I probably would’ve answered that a conservative was someone who is pro-life, pro-gun, & in favor of less regulation, low taxes, a free market economy, a strong defense, and stiff criminal justice laws. Now I’m inclined to see “conservative” as one of those amorphous terms that can be manipulated to mean whatever the base wants it to mean.

Mitt Romney who was formerly pro-choice, created a liberal friendly health plan, supports/ signed an assault weapons ban, wouldn’t take a position on the Surge and even hinted that he favored secret timetables in Iraq was deemed worthy of conservative support, whereas McCain who has a 25 year pro-life record, who wanted an increasingly free market approach to health care, who is much more pro-gun than Romney and who gave the Surge his full throated support was labeled a liberal regarded as the lowest of scum.

As an unrepentant McCainiac, It’s difficult not to see this as arbitrary, even capricious. Furthermore, it’s hard not to think that some conservatives are more interested in conformity – in having an opportunistic and weak candidate who can be counted on to always appease them despite having no real convictions than having someone who is capable of standing on principle rather than automatically yeilding to pressure and who is – for that reason – less easy to control.

I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just saying the criteria does not seem clear or consistent and at the moment I’ve come to take a bit of a cynical view of the matter.

Been thinking a lot about Erick’s piece ” Noun vs. Adjective”. As I understand it, he was making a distinction between Republicans who merely have conservative views, and those who truly have conservative convictions similar to how some Christians lead lives that are truly Christ centered and others only go through the motions. Leaving aside the question of who’s a conservative and who isn’t; it raises the question: how do convictions develop? what brings about spiritual or idealogical maturity?  Pastor Tim Keller teaches that the fruit of the spirit cannot be manufactured by human effort. You can and should create fertile conditions (by spending time with God, in the word, in fellowship, etc.) to allow God to work in your life but it is the Spirit that grows your fruit. You can’t shame a person into genuine spiritual growth and trying to force yourself to be more spiritual just doesn’t work. I expect it is the same with ideological growth.

Exposure to conservatism can cause a person to be move to the right. Case in point: Meghan McCain. Prior to the 2008 election she self described as an Independent but after spending time with – as she put it- some of the smartest Republicans in the country she fell in love with the Republican party. Now – I would’nt describe her as conservative (nor, I think, would anyone) but it seems clear she’s become more conservative than she was before.

I’ve seen conservatives get all worked up over Meghan McCain and I really don’t understand why. She’s called a RINO - ok, but even if that were true, so what?  She’s doesn’t hold elected office and I highly doubt she’s likely to become so influential and persuasive as to inspire hardcore conservatives to suddenly be more liberal. She’s been called a useful idiot- again, what does it matter? Is anyone really mistaking her for the voice of the conservative movement? Would it somehow be better for her to be a self described Independent and to be doing interviews, writing columns, etc. that are even more critical of the GOP and less in agreement with what it stands for? Would you want her to conform to whatever views Redstate is currently supporting when she hasn’t been honestly convinced?

There are plenty of passionate ideologues who faithfully parrot the party line but don’t bother to think for themselves at all. Ideology actually can be used as an excuse not to think or to conveniently oversimplify issues. As one libertarian put it ” the great thing about libertarianism is that whatever issue you have – you just plug it into the formula and you know the right position”  I’ve seen libertarians who “plugged into the formula” and came up with conclusions like “We need to legalize private ownership of nuclear weapons.” & “we never should have fought in WWII”   I once attempted to have a conversation with a self professed socialist whose response to even the most obvious questions ( like ” how would you motivate people to work if there’s no financial incentive?” ) was to get flustered and tell me to read Che Guevara. He clearly view Che as a prophet but didn’t really bother to think about what he wrote.

Plato wrote that “evil is unconsciousness” I submit that it is better to have the wrong view honestly than to profess the right views for the wrong reasons.

Erick writes about waging a “civil war” with the “Republican Establishment” well, it’s important to realize that wars have casualties.  There are drawbacks to this kind of rhetoric:

1. Party infighting is very unattractive to new Republicans and also to independents and/or disaffected Dems who may be considering the GOP. Admittedly, I don’t know what has been tried in terms of trying to reconcile differences with the establishment but from Ericks’s blog, Nessa’s diary, and the various comments my impression is that attacking the establishment is something close to a first recourse and there is little interest in trying to iron things out more peaceably.

2. It gives the impression that RedState is very exclusionary. Most people thinking of joining the GOP or of becoming a more active participant are not likely to want to have to prove their worthiness or be interrogated as to their level of conservatism. It’s difficult enough to find time for activism without the prospect of being subjected to a lot of verbal abuse and other nonsense.

3. It starts the finger pointing. When Erick blamed Mitch McConnell for the GOP only having 40 Senators I restrained myself from inquiring whether those self-proclaimed conservatives who grumbled constantly during the last election, refused to lift a finger or give a dime, & proudly stayed home bear no responsibility. (Now, after being called an idiot and a liberal anyway, I’ve refrained from restraining.)

4. Speaking of fellow Republicans as if they were the enemy greatly dampens enthusiasm and tends to cause uneccessary divisions. A lot of the disagreement seems to actually be about tactics not deep ideological differences. I’m reminded of the Bible and Paul’s instructions not to quarrel over matters of decorum, etc. It goes even beyond speaking negatively about other Republicans and whatever happened to Reagan’s 11th commandment?

5. Such a willingness to become unpleasant, to split hairs over who is conservative to the core vs. who is merely conservative in practice, to lump John Boehner who consistently spoke out against the Porkulus in with Charlie Crist who supported it, has the potential to create the impression of narrowness and ideological rigidity which is an impression that is likely to encourage candidates and even activist to pander rather than say what they really think.

But the point about wanting conservatives with genuine convictions is valid. How are such convictions formed?

Exploring Erick’s parallel to Christianity:

Pastor Tim makes an important distinction between a “restrained heart” and a “supernaturally changed heart”.  A restrained heart might refrain from obvious sinning but it will only be going through the motions. There’s no life in it , no real passion (except for perhaps self regard) and the sinful, worldly nature still manifests itself in less obvious ways.)

Since converting to Christianity I’ve attended Bible studies at three different churches. The first was literally a cult and “studying the Bible” literally consisted of telling how each verse was interpreted. I left rather quickly but had time to notice that nearly everyone always seemed to be tired and most of the people I talked to one on one admitted to being really depressed. They were the furthest thing from an example of victorious Christian living.

At the second church there was no attempt at brainwashing but there was far too much willingness to lecture.  I once had a group leader criticize me - within the text of her prayer – for asking that we continue to pray for my agnostic brother. It had been something I’d prayed about constantly for months and that I’d asked the group to pray about for 3 weeks “And he just came to church with me for the 2nd week in a row. God is listening! So everybody, please keep praying that he gets saved!” Rather than praying this she asked ” and please help Andrea to have patience and know that you’ll save her brother IN YOUR TIME.” I’d been reading “The Purpose Driven Life” and the author was big on having strong Christian friends and all my best friends were agnostic or very casual Christians - but I didn’t want to be friends with any of the people in that group and try though I might, I couldn’t will myself to want to.

At Redeemer my experience has been totally different. The first time I attended a Bible study with folks from Redeemer I was nervous and shamefully careless – gesturing with an uncapped pen in my hand- I accidentally marked the hostess’s beautiful suede couch. I was mortified but she assured me, with a warmth that was obviously sincere, that it was not a problem at all.

She could’ve screamed at me, could’ve demanded I pay for a new couch, but what would it have accomplished? I would’ve felt even worse, but it would’ve almost certainly reduced my participation. Instead, her generousity of spirit clued me in that I’d met someone unusually close to God.

A  conforming conservative who has adopted a righteous tone and all the right positions might be able to appease the base, spouting right wing platitudes and attacking the usual suspects but he/she is not going to be able to persuade and attract others. If anything, they will probably repel the rest.  As Pastor Tim teaches, genuine growth is always organic – it takes time and can’t be forced.

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COMMENTS

  • JadedByPolitics

    you are DELUDED if there is ANYTHING in Meghan McCain that is NOT straight up out the Democrat Party. That girl is no more Conservative then Nancy Pelosi. She wants the entire Republican Party which includes 40% of the public who self identify as Conservative to the IGNORANT way she says it makes her a PROGRESSIVE.

    BTW on the Romney against McCain it was here that NO ONE liked EITHER. The best that could be said about Romney was he could run the MONEY of the country however his PROGRESSIVE healthcare in MA is the bluebook for this CRAP that has us on pins and needles until after Christmas.

    McCain has many, many Conservative TRAITS however the minute you get into the ILLEGALS being given a pass for ALL their ILLEGAL behavior you have stepped over the line. He believes unfortunately that the Federal Government is better positioned to run your life instead of you and really for me the best way to IDENTIFY a Conservative would be a guy or girl who works to DISMANTLE the Federal Government down to its most basic level and allowing the FREE MARKET and Americans to do what they do best and that is LIVE without regulations and tax burdens.

    I believe that Conservatism is exactly what is says Conserve to do with LESS and that LESS is the Federal Government!

    • JadedByPolitics

      She wants the entire Republican Party to be like her which is a PROGRESSIVE…….That girl can call herself whatever she likes but the REALITY is she is a Democrat and you will see her change that designation to position herself to continue to be lauded by the LEFTIST media as a “spokesperson” for Republicans and WE need to STOP and CALL OUT those who “speak” on Republicans behalf actually be CONSERVATIVE!

    • clowngirl

      if McCain wasn’t one. Except Fred Thompson who got in really late or Sam Brownback who got out really early. I guess none of the folks you guys approve of wanted to run seriously in a year when Republicans were expected to get killed.

      I agree with you about decreasing the size and scope of the Federal government,

      • Scope

        the only conservative in the race was Fred Thompson. However you come to your conclusion based on what you believe your hero to be, not the individual facts that made each not conservative. You are trying to compare apples and oranges, and you are faulty in starting from your perceived point of view, not the facts.

      • nessa

        There were republicans but no conservatives after Fred dropped out. Populists and pretenders, oh and don’t forget the “maverick.” Conservatives don’t believe Global Warming or support amnesty. Wrong is wrong and you don’t do the wrong thing just to garner some votes.

        • Richard Mullins

          I’ve tried to say that but to some it falls on deaf ears. Ace and a few others have tried that conspiracy theory on why McCain became the nominee but that doesn’t comport with reality. Next time we better tell the conservative in the race to become the nominee to stay in, because we will make sure he/she wins.

      • ceili_dancer

        There were actual discussions that McCain was going to “reach” across the aisle and join with John Kerry to run as his Vice-President nominee.

  • nessa

    Its common sense so you don’t need indoctrination. When the left tells you “we have to spend a trillion dollars so we don’t go bankrupt” your common sense says “WTF? Dude, thats as F’d up as a football bat!” (depending of course on your inner voice’s accent and colloquialisms) With the proper indoctrination you can silence that inner conservative voice and over-ride i. It seems to work best to cover it with strong emotions and more stupid. Like “it’s for the children!” or “40,000 people die every day because they don’t have health insurance.” My inner voice isn’t very good at math, it stumbles over the problem for a bit… “Yea, right, that’s 80,000 in two days, 160 in four, uhm, 300 and… some… in… shouldn’t all the uninsured in America be dead by now? I mean the last time this failed was 93, 16 years times 40, 000 a day, that’s… an a$$load.”

    “Mehgan McCain moving to the right” really set my inner voice off, it cackled maniacally for most of the diary so I really couldn’t concentrate on the rest. It’s still mumbling now, something about “Yea, let me know when she gets back to the center.”

  • janis

    post any more of this ignorant drivel here. I’ll even double it if you finally admit you’re what Becker keeps calling you– a troll. Because no one with any sense whatsoever would come here and throw Meghan fergawdsake McCain at us as an example of someone who has moved to the right.

    And that’s completely discounting the rest of your ridiculous piece.

  • gunnerbs

    “2. It gives the impression that RedState is very exclusionary. Most people thinking of joining the GOP or of becoming a more active participant are not likely to want to have to prove their worthiness…”

    Head’s up: RedState and the GOP are two TOTALLY different entities. RedState is a conservative site, so yes, we talk about conservatism here. The GOP is a political party, designed to win elections (though it hasn’t seemed so lately). We happen to think the GOP will win more elections by being conservative, not Dem-lite.

    We are not the gate-keepers of the GOP and ask no one to prove worthiness to join the GOP. We just ask that Republicans who claim to be conservative atctually, you know, BELIEVE in conservatism. McCain can be a Repbulican–I don’t care. He is not conservative.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I’ve restored the diary. You put it up, and people discussed with you in good faith. Technically you’re not even supposed to be allowed to edit diaries after they’re published, thanks to you that’s a bug i’m going to fix as soon as I can, so that people can’t abuse the right as you now have..

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      We won’t be able to fix errors or make updates to our diaries once they’re posted? I’d call that a bug, not a feature.

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        I know it’s annoying, but you just have to preview before posting.

        It’s bad for the regulars, but it’s necessary to prevent abuses. You may not be aware, but RS in the past has been accused of particiapating in cover-ups because drive-by users went and erased posts that were uncomfortable for them in hindsight.

        It’s a tradeoff and abuse outweighs loss of convenience.

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          But this is a significant change from how it’s worked in the past. I’m not convinced the abuse outweighs the loss of functionality. As far as accusations of cover-ups, I doubt that’ll ever completely go away as long as someone has the ability to edit diaries after the fact.

          I understand this is your (the Directors) site, and you’re going to make decisions on functionality based on what you think is best, however, it also will affect how (when and how often) regular users post to the site.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            In the accusation I’m talking about, the diarist *did* make the diary disappear.

            Yes, we will have the power to make diaries disappear, but at least we’ll only be accused of disappearing diaries we actually disappeared.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            You need to fix that habit anyway.

            Seriously. If publishing without even proofreading is the only possible way to post, and it’s a terrible hardship to have to do that, then maybe I just put more effort into my posts than some people do.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            FWIW, I always preview to proofread before I post. I often take hours or even days to complete a post before I publish it. That doesn’t mean I won’t make a small mistake that slips through (we all do that). I was more concerned that we will lose the ability to update our posts when new information becomes available (that’s been the standard practice since I’ve been around). That’s a significant change from past behavior. Abusers have been changing/deleting their posts for a long time. I just don’t know if I agree limiting everyone is the best way to deal with the problem, but again, it’s your site to do with what you please.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            I just missed what your emphasis was on.

            Anyway, I’m open to suggestions for a better solution.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            If there were a “power user” option that would allow diarists that have proven themselves over time to have the edit ability, maybe that would work. If that functionality doesn’t exist, then I guess we’ll have to suffer the consequences of those that don’t want to follow the rules.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            I don’t know your options, but an approach that I have long hoped for, which is both modular and would structurally enforce the good no-deletion policy, would be to simply allow “update boxes”, ie time-stamped divs appended to the original post, which would allow editorial comment ranging from “I recant” to “para 3 line 2 should read: I really CAN stand all you guys”.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            It wouldn’t be a 5 minute add but I like it.

          • http://andrightlyso.com/ civil_truth

            Neill I hope you can find a solution along the line of Cinco’s suggestions

            I can go along with no editing of existing diaries once they’ve been proofread, provided there’s a method to update via something like this – to correct errors that missed editing, or in response to comments who point up a noteworthy error or idea – or just (especially with breaking stories) to update as new facts become available.

            Otherwise the poster could be left high and dry, as making corrections in the 53rd comment isn’t exactly going to set the record straight.

            And ultimately this limitation will inhibit people from posting worthy diaries.

            All postings need a mechanism for adding corrections, updates in a form comparable to the original post. This is longstanding journalistic practice (and also the practice at almost every blog).

            I hope you can do this so that your defense doesn’t cause more damage to the overall battlefield in your efforts to protect one front.

          • http://andrightlyso.com/ civil_truth
    • clowngirl

      I hadn’t realized there was a problem with removing the diary, I apologize.

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • edintexas

    I don’t think you are a troll. You apparently are offering your considered opinion, rather than engaging in the sort of garbage posts the trolls always leave.

    I don’t think you are stupid. Young and naive, but not stupid. The first election I remember clearly was Eisenhower’s first race. The first election in which I really was engaged was Nixon-Kennedy. Those who point out that Conservatives have been trying to convince the Rockefeller wing of the Republican party to change their ways are correct. The Left thinks that the election of 2000 was “stolen” from them. The Republican establishment (Country Club, Blue Bloods, Rockefeller [Nelson, not Jay], Northeastern – call them what you will) are positive that Barry Goldwater and assorted Hayseeds, Bumpkins and Rednecks stole the Republican Party from them in 1964. They have been somewhat successful in recovering some of the party since Ronald Reagan left office. They certainly control the RNC (come on, Steele isn’t really a Conservative, he just seems conservative when at home in the People’s Republic of Maryland), and the Campaign Committees of the House and Senate respectively. I can’t say that Pete Sessions and John Cornyn are “moderates” (full disclosure: Cornyn is one of my current Senators, and Pete used to be my Representative. I’ve voted for them both), but I believe the staffs of the respective Committees are establishment Republicans and definitely not Conservatives.

    So this “fight” has been a long time in coming. Which side will control the Republican party will have an effect on the country for a long time to come. In my heart I knew Barry was Right (and I’m sure you don’t personally remember that campaign slogan). I still think he was right.

    P.S. I only contributed to Fred Thompson. I was not enamored of any of the other “major” candidates until our VP nominee was announced. And I think McCain was more concerned with running an “honorable” campaign than a winning campaign. Honor is important (at least to us older folks), but allowing your opponent a free hand by refusing to use appropriate information (e.g. Racist Rev. Wright) is downright stupid and an affront to all your supporters. John McCain may believe he kept his “honor” intact by his campaign methods, but he “dissed” most of his supporters by those same methods. They didn’t contribute their time and cash so he could feel good about “taking the high road” to losing.

    • clowngirl

      by McCain’s unwillingness to go for the jugular and to expose Obama as the lying communist he is.

      THANK YOU edintexas for at least believing that I was posting in good faith.

      • Martin Knight

        If he hadn’t won the nomination last year, I don’t find it hard to imagine that he would have endorsed Obama. The man virtually led a Fifth Column within the party, and it’s for this reason that he is so despised. The world did not begin in 2008 after he won the nomination.

        McCain was at the forefront of every “deal” or “Bipartisan breakthrough” that helped the Democrats snatch victory from the jaws of defeat or denied Republicans victory outright. Which is why the response to your cries that McCain has earned himself a 94% ACU rating this year doesn’t impress anyone – where was this loyalty to principle when the GOP had a Majority and it would have made a difference?

        McCain could not go for the jugular with Obama because he’d spent the last eight years pounding on his fellow Republicans. This is the same man who went to the House Democratic Caucus retreat to rain condemnation and calumny on his own party and heap praise on the opposition.

        And for what? Strictly for TV interviews and flattering profiles in liberal newspapers – there was almost no weekend that passed without seeing his face plastered on the screen and bloviating about “Bipartisanship” and how much the GOP sucks to the delight of Left-Wing hosts.

        Everyone could tell he was being played for a useful idiot … except for him and his stupid admirers, most of whom seem to think that “bipartisan” is synonymous with “good.” His 94% is just confirmation that 2008 finally got it to click in his head that his “base” in the Press never really cared much for him beyond how he could be induced with a little ego-stroking to sabotage his own party.

        So, in light of this, can you not now see why he couldn’t go for the jugular on Obama the way he could on Romney? He had absolutely no problem attacking his own party, but the opposition? Hell no. Before 2008, I could not have imagined a Presidential candidate standing in front of a crowd of his supporters, four days to Election Day, trying to reassure them that his opponent would make a “fine President.”

        • clowngirl

          and I have a busy day today and tommorow actually. I may not get to it till Saturday – but will get to it then at the latest.

          Didn’t want you to think I was ignoring your thoughtful comment.

        • clowngirl

          You have to realize I didn’t like Bush and hated the way that (when his approval ratings were high) nearly everyone caved to him. Particularly Republicans.

          I’ve heard conservatives list off reasons why they dislike McCain and then claim that he sold out the country for tv interviews hundreds of times – but nobody has ever given much evidence that it wasn’t an honest – if misguided – decision. I think there is evidence that his decisions were motivated by a desire to do (what he thought was) the right thing.

          It’s possible that my opinion of McCain is higher than it should be – but I don’t think I’m completely wrong about him and I’m coming to accept that it’s just pointless to discuss it.

          • mbecker908

            you’ll see that he’s not anything based on “honest decisions”.

            His actions in the Senate from 2001 on are nothing more than an exercise of sticking his finger in GWB’s eye at every turn. He got away with it mostly because Bush refused to fight. McCain operates in his self interest and only in his self interest.

            G14 thru at least a dozen very well qualified judicial nominees under the bus, got nobody out of committee and had no effect on either Roberts or Alito.

            The “torture amendment” was nothing more than an out-and-out move to embarrass Bush at the expense of denigrating our military. It did absolutely nothing that current treaty and law didn’t already do. Nothing but cover for Democrats who raised the roof about “torture” that was not happening.

            His “support” for a larger footprint in Iraq was not support for the surge, it was a Colin Powell huge force that could not have happened. He did nothing with this but give the Democrats cover.

            His record as a fiscal conservative is non-existent. He made a big deal about opposing earmarks but elimination of earmarks doesn’t reduce government spending by even one dollar. It just stops Congresscritters from directing spending to specific projects in their districts.

          • mbecker908

            McCain has been involved in has expanded the role of government.

            He’s worked closely with the most liberal members of the Senate and hasn’t once worked with Conservative Senators to actually reduce te role of government.

          • clowngirl

            that repealed an entitlement program? Maybe in ’91. I’ll have to look it up again.

          • Richard Mullins

            That’s what he does best. Anything he really does is all about him not what’s best for the party and the country. The idiot is looking for a way to vote yes on cap and trade(that’s one thing he’s sure of voting yes on) when it comes to the floor of the senate. What if they polls where for public option, would he really vote no?

          • mbecker908

            And once again clown you haven’t addressed any of the issues raised by either Martin or me.

          • clowngirl

            you

          • mbecker908

            McCain never campaigned on tax cuts in 2000.

            Which actions… his opposition to tax cuts, his CFR legislation, his G14 (I’ll deal with specifics in a minute), torture, whining about the footprint in Iraq (he did not support the surge until it was administration policy), his unwillingness to fight for an up or down vote for judicial nominees for starters.

            There is no “minority rights” with respect to filibustering nominees for the judiciary or cabinet positions. That’s a figment of your imagination. We’re talking about Senate Rules. Nobody suggested for a minute that filibustering legislation should be done away with, only that nominees for high office be given an up or down vote in a reasonable time. I still support that even with Obama as President.

            On “torture” AG absolutely is not, under any internationally recognized definition torture. Neither is anything that’s happened at Gitmo. With respect to AG, the military took appropriate measures against US soldiers long before the first pictures hit the front pages of the NYT. The issue was settled before the flap started and it was handled under the UCMJ. Just like Baghram.

            Torture was covered by international treaties to which we are signators, by US criminal code and by the UCMJ. McCain’s legislation did not add one thing to the then current law under which the military and the CIA operated. It was done for absolutely no good legislative purpose it was 100% a political sham designed to embarrass the Bush Administration and gave the Democrats cover on the made up issue.

            On force structure in Iraq, no, I’m not saying that the Powell footprint was his position the whole time, he gave grudging support to the surge after it was policy but never advocated anything other than the PF in debate in the media until the surge was a done deal then he whined about how he had been in favor of the larger force for years but that is a patent lie. There is a huge difference between throwing 500,000 troops at a problem and the strategic implications of the surge that was implemented in Iraq.

            Again, this was McCain fronting McCain’s self interest.

            Your comment on earmarks is made with total ignorance of the budgeting process and is about the stupidest thing you’ve ever said here. And that’s saying a lot.

            No, McCain has never pushed for less spending in any real, tangible way. As in cutting departments and programs. He’s done nothing more than whittle at the edges.

            As far as the CFG rating, that’s nothing more than noting that an expensive whore is probably good in bed.

            You have to put up with me being “nasty” because we seem to have to put up with you flaunting your ignorance and your blatant stupidity.

          • clowngirl

            I’m on Eastern Standard Time and have to get up fairly early.

            “McCain never campaigned on tax cuts in 2000.”

            I know. what I was saying was that he was against the Bush tax cuts when he was campaigning and so his opposing them was consistent. same with CFR

            As to your comments about the “Torture Ban” Your point seems to be that there were some incidents of torture and/or mistreatment but that it was already being adequately dealt with through military channels. Ok, so far but there wasn’t just the issue of the torture but also of the publicity associated with it which hurt America’s reputation. How did the photos from AG ever get publicized in the first place? Why did the New York Times have access to them?

            As to your comment with regard to Iraq – my recollection is of McCain calling for more troops repeatedly for 4 years and usually for far fewer than 500,000 and of him talking about the need for a counterinsurgency strategy prior to 2007. Will look it up (again) and get back to you.

          • clowngirl

            “Your comment on earmarks is made with total ignorance of the budgeting process and is about the stupidest thing you

          • mbecker908

            You’re an idiot because you refuse to learn. You won’t do basic research, you don’t know and won’t read (or at least learn from) history. You keep coming in here and trumpeting crap that you’ve been beaten down on time and again.

            You’re not worth the effort.

      • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

        I don’t think that it does us any good to throw around personal insults at someone who has been posting awhile and has something to say.

        I just want to reiterate what edintexas said. Ronald Reagan was by far the greatest President in my lifetime and I remember distinctly that although the libs and the MSM hated him, some of the nastiest attacks on him came from the country clubber republicans.

        By the way? You know how the liberals always accuse us of being in the tank for big corporations? Well there is some truth to that, not that conservatives like corporate welfare, but many Republicans sure do.

        In fact, you know all those big corporate farm subsidies and the ridiculous ethanol subsidy ? yea that was brought to you by the retired rino Bob Dole.

        You see in order to defeat marxism you have to ACTIVLY oppose it. If you just go along, or take a lets go slow approach then marxism wins every time.

        • clowngirl

          I seem to have come off much differently than I intended in everything surrounding this diary.

  • clowngirl

    Am very busy for the next couple of days and want to give thoughtful responses.

    Didn’t want anyone to think I was ignoring their comment or being a “hit and run” poster.

    • mbecker908

      You are incapable of a “thoughtful response”.

      You’ve done an incredible job here of proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are ignorant, that you have no interest of learning anything that might run contrary to “your feelings” and that you are absolutely incapable of rational argument.

  • clowngirl

    A week ago,I was more open to wanting to understand your various points of view. Even kind of understood about the anti McCain sentiment

    Reading the various posts on the “Republican Civil War”. etc. forcibly reminded me of the frustrations I felt with conservatives continuing to bash McCain even when he’d become the nominee. Everyone has there scapegoats as to why Obama won and we now have a Democrat super majority. I blamed the stubborn right – those who couldn’t t stop bashing McCain even when he was the Republican Nominee and a race to socialism loomed before us.

    The way some of y’all get upset about McCain – that’s how I feel about folks who brag about not voting last year. Particularly those who relished the idea of letting Obama destroy the country so America will elect a “real conservative” down the road. I’m not saying RedState was like that _ I expect it wasn’t but the tone of the posts reminded me of that attitude and left me much less in sympathy.

    It was the first election I had gotten actively involved in and I invested quite a lot of time and (what was for me) quite a lot of money and I took the loss very hard.The impression I formed about stubborn right wingers who seemed to put their grudge over the good of the country was a strong one.

    I had liked RedState quite a bit. I don’t think mBecker should be allowed to call people idiots, etc. and I didn’t feel accepted but I thought that might eventually change and on my side I felt positively towards the site. but I’m realizing I has some misperceptions about RedState and now I’m not sure what I think.

    And right now I’m a little hurt and though I truly appreciate the many thoughtful comments – I feel like I just need a little bit of a break from the site.

    So I’m going to bow out of this thread – at least till probably January. I hope everyone understands. Hopefully I’ll be able to come back with a better attitude at some point.=) and with an idea how I might be able to contribute in a positive way without friction. I truly did not mean to cause any sort of problem.

    A Very Merry Christmas to Everyone! (or holiday of your choice) =)

    Clowngirl

    • Jesse V

      I too, like you am extremely disappointed here as well.

      You should never be called an idiot. I will admit that I use the idiot phrase as a generalization. But those that know me, know and/or know themselves, they know if I am speaking to them. Obviously you are one seeking answers and the truth. So if I ever said anything to hurt you I apologize here and now!

      Tonight I was demonized and called a troll, nasty things were said about me that I took offense to, And yes I lashed out against those who would call me names. This is not the conservative way. You never indict without evidence or proof. So I too share your trepidation of this site as well.

      At one time this was a site where you could come to blow off steam, to share ideas and to find comfort, solace and strength.

      This site is not what it once was and I’ve only been a posting member for 4 months and 13 days. Even though I’ve been coming here for around a year year.

      Remember that we need people like you to make a difference in 2010. Tune in to what shows you find informative. Inquire, research and seek real truth. And hen and only then vote or make you decisions based on the knowledge you believe to be the truth.

      Still this is the season to forgive and to love so to you I say Merry Christmas!For that is the holiday I observe. and to you I also say God Bless, you and yours!

      • mbecker908

        The two of you should start your own site. We could have a contest for the name. I would offer Trolls R Us as appropriate.

      • clowngirl

        whether to continue posting and on what topics/ how to go about it if I do. Some of the regulars offered advice in this thread which I appreciate and will re-read and consider.

        I’m sorry to hear someone called you a troll. In my view that type of behavior is disgusting and should not be tolerated at RedState.

        • mbecker908

          It’s well demonstrated that your view is uninformed and completely opposed to any scholastic effort.

          You want disgusting, look at your posting history. Again and again you pull this same crap. You put up a diary or a comment that is ignorant of history, uninformed on the issues and devoid of logic and then you whine like Joe Biden caught in plagiarism when you get called on it.

          Go be a victim somewhere else. You’re a bore in addition to being a troll. And based on his limited posting history your new little friend doesn’t look like he’s any better.

      • http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

        that which all Ronulans do.

        • clowngirl

          this is the first time I have notices his or her posts. Do you really think he or she is a troll as in here only for the purpose of being disruptive ?

          mBecker has called me a troll (then he said I’d proven him wrong then went back to it) and I know I’m not one so I’m skeptical. But I’m not going to defend someone I know nothing about and Jesse V mischaracterized what I posted a little bit (though perhaps not intentionally)

    • mbecker908

      you’re a whiner too.

      Several of us have, on numerous occasions outlined our reasons, issue-by-issue with McCain and noted our reasoning for our assertion that he is no “conservative”. He’s also not a RINO or a liberal. He is for McCain and McCain only. He has done serious damage to the Republican Party, to the US military and to the Nation as a result of his legislative ego trips. I’ve posted several times on this as has Martin and several others. You have yet to rebut an argument with a fact or with a series of assumptions that could lead to a logical conclusion that would rebut our arguments. Yet you come in here again and again and tell us how feel about McCain.

      Oh and by the way, all of us who rail against McCain voted for him. And as far as bashing McCain when he was the nominee, after the convention he was ahead of Obama. When he refused to go on the offensive to win, when he said Obama would be a good president, when he refused to call out the Democrats (his good friends) on banking legislation, etc he lost support from the right. But hey, we’ve been through this with you before and didn’t get it then, so I know this a “pearls before swine” point.

      This is not HuffPo or The Nation. We don’t give a damn about how you feel. We care about the actual lessons of history, about real facts and about assumptions that can be backed with logical argument. You’ve admitted time and again you do not know history, even such recent history as the Clinton presidency. You ignore the facts when they are brought up to you. You don’t have basic ability to use Google. You show no inclination to have a desire to learn. You just “feel”.

      It’s pretty obvious from the reaction – on the issues, on the facts, on the history – to this diary that I’m not the only one here who understands that, at best, you are a clueless fool.

      Have a nice Christmas. Resolve to learn something next year. Barring that, go post at HuffPo, you’ll fit right in. They’ll think you’re a genius. You’ll feel great.

      • JadedByPolitics

        ……

        • http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

          n/t

      • janis

        telling her (again) where she keeps missing the boat, but for being very generous with your advice about HuffPo. It’s a lovely Christmas gift you gave clowngirl, the notion that someone somewhere would think she’s a genius.

        The only caveat to that is that, at HuffPo, she’ll get lost in that crowd of geniuses. So, clowngirl, take Jesse V with you for company and affirmation of your feelings. And Merry Christmas to both of you as you take your hankies and depart for distant shores……

      • clowngirl

        Just as the Republicans voted against Obamacare. But the reason they’ve come in for criticism here is that more was expected of them. Erick (and others) wanted to see them Do Everything Possible to delay.

        Did you donate to McCain as much as you could afford or was legally allowable? Did you put aside your feelings and bust your tail campaigning for him as though he was your first choice of candidate? Did you go out of your way to find things to like about McCain and speak positively about him so that others might also find it easier to vote for him and to actively support him? In short did you do absolutely everything possible to support the candidate your party had chosen and to prevent Obama from becoming President?

        Your comment that McCain was ahead in the polls after the Republican Convention is irrelevant. Yes, Sarah Palin rocked the convention and fired up the base. That isn’t a testimony to their effort – just to her appeal. It doesn’t prove that conservatives supported McCain as fully as was needed. Many of them didn’t.

        Your comments demonstrate an attitude of deciding that McCain didn’t “deserve” your full support – or at least not the full support of all conservatives. You didn’t “feel” like supporting him. It shouldn’t have been about that. It should’ve been about fighting the disaster that awaited on the other ticket.

        The base did not work as hard as it could’ve to keep Obama out of office.Period.

        • mbecker908

          In answer to your second paragraph questions, yes.

          Your third paragraph is as out of touch as we’ve come to expect from you. McCain blew his momentum and lead not “because conservatives didn’t support him as fully as was needed”. He blew his lead because he refused to take on Obama on the issues. He refused to fight. He threw the election (probably not on purpose but the result is the same).

          My problems with McCain have nothing to do with “feelings”, you raving idiot. My problems with McCain are problems based on his performance on issues and on legislation that he has authored, supported and fought against (tax cuts for instance). I have no “feelings” about McCain that matter.

          McCain lost the election not because the base let him down. McCain lost the election because he would not fight to win. The base was behind him pretty solidly – every bit as solidly as they were behind Bush – but he ran off and hid when it became obvious that he might have to say something bad about a fellow Senator.

          Clowngirl, don’t ever end an argument with the word “Period”. You are too stupid to understand what that means.

        • penguin2

          last two paragraphs. That you could say McCain being ahead in the polls after the GOP Convention is “irrelevant” and then say the base did not do all they could to support the ticket….I really can’t believe you say that with a straight face. That base being fired up after the pick of Palin, translated into incredible support for the ticket. Everywhere are stories about the change in the mood and tone for our side, and we really believed we could win. It was McCain who did not really want it, no matter what you say. I won’t repeat everything that Becker just outlined to you about why McCain blew the election, because I and others have been over and over this with you before.

          And for you to write that the base did not work as hard as it could to keep Obama out of office, rethink that please. McCain would have been smashed in the polls if it hadn’t been for the base that did turn out. And the reason Obama is in office, is because of a Leftist MSM that covered up the truth about him, a Dem machine that had been able to mow down our side for 8yrs. an economy that tanked (conveniently for the Dems) at the wrong time, and well as all the stuff that went with the idea of people thinking they could elect the first black president. Lots more reasons than that, and don’t forget, it is typical in this country to change out the WH political party after two terms. So our side everything going against it and nothing really for it to convince the country that the GOP should hold the presidency. That is why Obama is in ofice.

          Oh, an one other thing, try affixing some of the blame on to McCain, after all he is the one who said “Obama would make a fine president….” When he said that, I knew we had lost.

          Don’t come here and insult the conservatives and blame us for the candidate’s own failures.

          • mbecker908

            Clowngirl is not only ignorant on elections “before she got involved” in politics – she’s admitted several times that she didn’t know anything about even recent history like 1965 – 2001. She’s ignorant about stuff in the election she participated in.

          • penguin2

            When I opened up RS tonight and caught that right off, well….but I have to remind myself, I’m the one batting my head against the wall and therefore do not need to waste the time or energy. It was just hard to swallow. I’m going to have to let Hinz Rule prevail for me in this case.

          • Richard Mullins

            No offense to former crack addicts but there seems to be nothing that can make a difference. Becker tried first as have I(to a lesser extent). She mumbles off stuff with out thinking(my late grandmother said engage brain before opening mouth). There is no use and no hope for her unless you like hitting her like a pinata. Oh well, we learn unlike clowngirl(a really good clown and might give Al Frankenstein a run for his money).

          • clowngirl

            conservatives got fired up but the that was very late in the game. McCain had already agreed to accepting public financing because his donations were so low.

            I personally knew several conservatives – who did get active towards the end – who flat out told me they were going to sit the election out until Sarah Palin.

            “Don’t come here and insult us”

            Penguin, I didn’t start this discussion. I’m just reacting to the sentiments I see hear which I think are divisive and damaging to the Republican party and, as a result, the country.

            I’ll even repeat my point. Conservatives did not campaign as hard as they could’ve for John McCain. Plenty of them chose to spend most of the election bashing him instead. Some, even now, brag about not even voting for him McCain – in fact- staying home. Well, stubborn conservatives staying home may well have made the difference that cost Republicans one or two Senate seats- which – if filled by Republicans – would have prevented Obamacare and maybe even the Porkulus.

            The time for airing differences is primary season – once it was clear that McCain was going to be the nominee – conservatives should have united against the Democrats as the common enemy and sold themselves on McCain as the best (viable) candidate available.

            Instead many took the attitude of “I’ll wait to see who he picks as a running mate” or “I’m not supporting him unless he chooses X” presumably on the theory that by witholding support they could weild influence.

            McCain made mistakes, of course, but I think he’s been blamed for too much and a lot of private citizens are not expecting enough from themselves.

          • JadedByPolitics

            is NAUSEATING! McCain was and is and will continue to be a PROGRESSIVE and that turned off a hell of alot of Conservatives…think about that seriously…..because if one has a liberal who is a progressive and one progressive calling himself a Republican don’t you believe that you should just vote for the ONE who honestly called himself that? OBTW Sarah Palin IGNITED that base and that base was US and WE had gotten behind McCain after he won the primary WE just got INVOLVED and campaigned for them after!

            I know you would love to make “someone” else the boogyman for your beloved tool of a Republican but the bottom line is McCain LOST it all by himself for REFUSING TO FIGHT! He talked worse about FELLOW Conservatives then he did about The Idiot in Chief!

          • penguin2

            And since I was not politically active during and just immediately post primary season, cannot speak on it. Post analysis tells me you are right in that the conservatives were not fired up about McCain, and in fact we do have some pretty strong issues in conflict with him, and that isn’t going to change.

            But in looking at the post convention, there were a number of signs that we could pull it out, and therein the fault lies with McCain. He did not fight-went to debates and held back, would not condemn the Dems records openly and loudly and pound them on it, and he and his campaign staff restrained Palin. And one cannot forget how he made the Rev. Wright off limits….

            Art mentions the suspension of the campaign and then nothing but agreement by McCain WITH Obama, and thus we got TARP and another reason for the people to have nothing to distinguish the GOP from the Dems.

            IMO, I think it was a long shot for the GOP to retain the WH, OTOH, I believe we did have that shot in the fall, and that is where McCain let us down. I anticipated and watched him carefully; desperate to see some sign of the fire and that he really wanted to be president. In the end, I honestly do not believe he wanted it and something in him made him give way to the hype that was Obama.

            Now, I’m thinking it is time to move on from McCain. I would not try to take away your admiration for him, only want to point out why I and obviously many others see the situation differently. Clowngirl, it is time to look ahead to 2010 and what we want to accomplish. RS is going to continue to promote conservative candidates in primaries, we are going to get the message out that GOP is no longer the party of Dem lite; to that end is what the focus should be.

          • clowngirl

            McCain was overly concerned with being non-blaming and considerate and running an “honorable campaign” even those of us who liked McCain were driven crazy by it.

            My point is that – just as the far right gets frustrated with those they perceive as too moderate – the base gives cause for frustration as well. ;) Anyway, subject dropped. I’m tired of it – I think everyone is.

          • mbecker908

            It is, after all, the reason we’re the permanent minority.

          • mbecker908

            McCain made mistakes, of course, but I think he

        • aesthete

          Did McCain stand up for conservatives while he ran for president? Did he make every effort to make them feel comfortable with him, if not on policy, then at least as a fellow traveler? I wish I could say yes, but his derogatory comments towards those with concerns about Obama’s past, dismissal of the idea that Obama would be anything but a “fine president”, and his past sponsoring major pieces of legislation that run contrary to what conservatives believe only reinforce the negative picture that I and so many conservatives have of him. Here’s a gem from the campaign trail in 1999, believed to have been made in response to the tension between himself and the “religious right” (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/mccain082499.htm):

          “…in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations.”

          Whether or not you have strong feelings on abortion or not (I do), the fact that McCain so easily compromised his position on a life-or-death issue because of some tension between himself and another member of the coalition should greatly concern anyone looking at him as leadership material. It’s telling that, without exception, all of the bills and policies that he worked to get enacted as law fly in the face of basic conservative thought, with the possible exception of his support of Colin Powell’s plan in Iraq (which, while impractical and wrong-headed, I’ll grant was non-partisan in nature).

          Rudy Guiliani, while not by any means the perfect ideological conservative, did not waste his time pretending that social conservatism was a pi

          • aesthete

            In the 5th paragraph: “I will say only that such an examination of a candidate

          • penguin2

            relationship or lack thereof, with the conservatives. I do remember hearing about that comment regarding Roe v Wade. McCain has been so much go along, get along and “bipartisanship,” that term makes me ill. You also hit on the one of the things that I thought about Guiliani, while he may not be a social conservative, I never saw him or believe that he would trample on social conservatives concerns; IMO McCain often seems to project disdain towards them. And you are also right about Dick Cheney. he accepts those that may not agree with his beliefs.

            There is a difference between not agreeing with social conservatives on issues, and trying to marginalize and demonize them for their beliefs. In fact, I think we actually tend to be more tolerant of others, in ways the Left can never understand. But when the Left wants to destroy beliefs and traditions that help a society survive, and freely accepts the idea of killing members in society-abortion, and then is moving onto-euthanasia, then someone, somewhere, has to take a stand.

          • mbecker908

            INCLUDING on pro-life issues, than is McCain. He committed to keep all administrative blocks to abortion in place and had a judicial review panel of very strong conservatives who would have recommended judicial nominations.

            McCain’s effrontery doesn’t stop with just pro-life folk. He’s just especially pissed at them because he got caught in ’99 pandering to pro-choice California RINOs, came back east and said the opposite, then denied he’d said what people had tape of. That episode cost him the 2000 nomination (thank God) and he never got over it. He blamed the pro-life community and most of all he blamed Bush. That’s the root of his opposition to the Bush Tax Cuts, the reason behind his Torture Amendment and why he was a pain the ass to the administration for most of Bush’s presidency.

          • aesthete

            on virtually any metric, whether practical or ideological, than McCain, Huckabee, and Romney, and is probably a better executive, simply by virtue of experience and temperament, than Fred Thompson (don’t hurt me, E Plub). My point was that Rudy and Cheney were somehow able to prevent themselves from attacking fellow-travelers whom they disagreed with in the interests of pragmatism, in contrast to the ridiculous and damaging pettiness that McCain indulged in. Heck, Bush and him were practically an ideological match made in heaven, and he couldn’t get along with the guy to save his life.

          • Achance

            after the “suspend” the campaign gambit. McCain/Palin were leading in some polls at that time. He did his high-drama suspend the campaign thing and then did absolutely nothing, deferred to BHO actually, and then not only all but quit meaningfully campaigning but let/had his staff unload on Palin.

            Something ain’t right! He has his own checkered past with the financial industry; maybe somebody had pictures or something. Now he’s trying to be Mr. Republican, but in that linguine-spined lot, anybody who can pull themselves upright is Mr. Republican.

          • 6eorge Jetson

            At the time of the 9/15/08 Lehman bankruptcy, McCain was in a dead heat with Obama, and for a few days, even had a slight lead on intrade.com. But then the credit crisis hit, and in the debates barely mentioned Fannie/Freddie.

            Clearly, he decided to ignore the issue, and by doing so, let Republicans take the full blame for the crisis, when in fact it was Democrats in Congress that had blocked efforts to reign in the taxpayer as the the guarantor of Fannie/Freddie. (The Greenspan/Bernanke lineage is also to blame, but the Fed Chairman is an independent entity, subject only to a Presidential appointment/reappointment every four years, and Greenspan’s tenure had spanned administrations of both parties.)

          • 6eorge Jetson

            withdrawn, and let a clean Republican have at the Democrats on the Fannie/Freddie crisis. Allowing Republicans to be pinned with the full blame for the crisis was an across-the-board disaster.

          • mbecker908

            is absolutely the best I’ve ever seen. And it’s also absolutely accurate.

          • aesthete
          • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
          • clowngirl

            and – living in the NE – I probably saw more moderates actively involved than was probably representative. And one of the conservatives I mentioned not being involved until Palin was chosen did drive up from New Jersey- through New York City- to drive a bunch of us out to Scranton.

            And, yes. It is a lot to ask people to stop their lives and get actively involved. I have not been remotely as involved in trying to stop Obamacare as I was in trying to elect McCain. I put a lot of things on hold that I have been following through on now. It isn’t that I don’t care – I do. I’ve followed developments and made phone calls – discussed the matter and tried to inform friends – but I’m starting out in a new market and I need to put my focus there.

            Anyway, my point in originally bringing all this up is that it’s counterproductive to start a conservative vs. establishment or vs. moderate war – and when Erick and others start talking about Civil War….as a desirable thing it drags up every grievance I have ever had against the base (or even just my idea of the base).

            ColdWarrior at one point linked some Milton Friedman interviews and what struck me was how contagiously positive the he was. He loved and thoroughly believed in capitalism and didn’t really waste energy on blasting the people who disagreed with him. In fact, one of the moments that most impressed me was when he was talking about how Congress is corrupt and such in the course of pursuing their perceived self interest. He was matter of fact about it. Not upset, not condemning. He just saw it as an opportunity to sell others on his viewpoint and raise awareness so that their self interest would be to protect a free market economy.

            Looking on, I thought here is a guy who is 100% sold on a free market.

            Looking on at RedState, my impression of conservatism is largely of people defining themselves by what/who they don’t like. I’m looked on as a moderate or even a liberal simply because I don’t apologize for supporting McCain– yet many of the attacks have been personal – speculating on his motives.

            I’m tired of RS-ers acting like I worship McCain. I don’t and never have. I decided I was going to get involved in the election and picked the best available candidate and sold myself on the idea of supporting him. I don’t see McCain as flawless – but I do see him as having good points and it bothers me to see others regarding him as having no worth whatsoever – and that’s on a level that doesn’t have anything to do with politics. People are imperfect and we are commanded to forgive them.

            I feel like the whole “Republican Civil War” thing goes beyond principled disagreement and drifts into tearing people apart in a Lord of the Flies kind of way, I’m not saying that is it’s intent – but it does go there. It’s one thing to have a respectful disagreement and urge someone to take a certain course- quite another to go out of your way to enlarge their flaws and even to attribute the worst possible motivations to actions you disagree with,

            Even mBecker’s calling me an idiot is counterproductive. Why would I want to stay where I’m constantly insulted and belittled? and – if I don’t leave – how can such behavior be expected to do anything but make me more inclined to disagree? I’m not going to think “Oh gee, mBecker called me an idiot. He’s somebody I want to learn from”

            what is the purpose of driving me off? A new Republican who was (initially) excited about RedState. Inititially I was somewhat prolific – writing diaries about non controversial subjects – some of which were getting recommended. Why not just let me develop? I was excited about RedState but as the insults continued – you have to realize I think it’s morally wrong to allow comments like mBecker’s – so I can no longer have an uncomplicatedly positive attitude – I feel compelled to lodge disagreement and don’t feel comfortable even trying to be agreeable anymore. If such efforts are rejected – I will feel hurt and will have wasted my time – if they are accepted – then I’d feel like I’m feeding a website that employs tactics I think are immoral.

            Didn’t Reagan believe that Republicans should speak positively of each other? Certainly there must have been Republicans who were imperfect at that time as well.

          • mbecker908

            comments to educate you. I don’t know if just don’t read them or you don’t have the ability to understand. At this point, I think it’s the latter.

            You know nothing about US history, even the slice since the ’60′s. You haven’t followed politics at all. You don’t know the players. You don’t understand how Washington works. You’ve had all of this explained time and again. We’ve dissected issue after issue with facts and the historical record and you come back with “oh, I didn’t know that…” and then repeat the same argument in your next post.

            I belittle you because you beclown yourself. You will not engage an argument with facts, you just feel something ought to be the way you want it to be and that makes it so. You want principled disagreement, it occurs here on a daily basis, but with people who understand how to construct an argument and typically with people who have a baseline of understanding about the real world. We have a number of very liberal posters who are a joy to comment with because they have well constructed arguments and know how to deal with facts and logic.

            You don’t understand Reagan’s 11th Commandment either. Check 1980 and the battering he put to GHW Bush. Or 1976 when he took on Gerald Ford. That would be President Ford.

            With respect to your continued commentary about the “civil war”, it’s been explained over and over why it’s necessary to remove and replace the leadership that has done nothing more than led us, as a nation, down the garden path. You continue to ignore the lesson and remain firmly entrenched in the Rodney King mode. The bottom line is that you’re preferred methods have gotten us where we are and it’s time to change.

            Your non-controversial diaries were well received and recommended because they were generally well written and you seemed to actually know something about your subject matter. When you write about politics, something you obviously know nothing about, and try to come off like do know something, your offerings are not well received. They are not well received for a couple of reasons (which have been explained over and over).

            One, you don’t know what you’re talking about. That’s been pointed out more times than I have fingers and toes. When someone points out the history or the personalities or the voting records or some easily discovered factual information that destroys your “point” you get your feelings hurt and start whining. Then you repeat your original argument, setting yourself up for a beatdown. A well deserved one at that. You are now whining about not being allowed to “develop”. Development is a two sided thingy. The one seeking to develop must be willing to learn. You have demonstrated over and over an unwillingness to even pay attention, let alone learn.

            We have people come here all the time who are “new”. They usually come here to learn a thing or two before they start expounding on their expertise. They don’t typically show off their ignorance and then get insulted when they are corrected.

            I’m shocked – shocked I say – that you consider my comments “morally wrong”. You have an interesting concept of “morals”, and one that I really don’t care to pursue because, based on that paragraph I suspect you know nothing more about morality than you do politics.

          • clowngirl

            I’ve appreciated it and actually have generally come around to your POV. The examples I can think of are once when I made a remark about student loans being a reasonable middle ground between welfare and doing nothing (you and several others made the point that if government didn’t provide student loans private institutions still would – as was done before government got involved) I found the arguments convincing and changed my view.

            Another time I had started to defend Huckabee – you brought to my attention the fact that his post was very misleading and my premise was false. I basically said “thank you. I stand corrected.”

            At yet another time I got into a discussion about one of your posts – I was disappointed in John McCain that day and mildly bashed him – you were almost pleasant and refrained from calling me an idiot for a few exchanges. I didn’t fully agree with you – but did look on your comments as food for thought,

            I don’t have any problem with being corrected mBecker. I have a problem with you calling me an idiot all the time. And you didn’t have to be pushed to it. The very first comment I ever made here resulted in you responded with a post titled “Clowngirl: You’re the poster idiot for August”

            That kind of thing does hurt my feelings as do all these exagerrated claims of my ignorance.I am not ignorant of American History – in fact I’ve read up on it a fair amount over the years. Maybe not as much as you have – but I have made efforts in that direction, I followed the Bush administration, at times, quite closely. I am somewhat new to reading about things from the conservative point of view and I do confess to years of MSM exposure that I didn’t realize was as biased as it is,

            So, I’ll admit to having probably been exposed to a fair amount of misinformation – but it isn’t from lack of paying attention and, again, I don’t mind being politely ( or even just civilly) corrected. I mind being intentionally insulted. I don’t see any justification for calling people idiots and don’t understand why it is tolerated at all. If someone is an idiot it speaks for itself. They don’t need to be called one,

          • mbecker908

            As for August, I recall that, and you earned it. You have also consistently failed to even try to defend a point beyond repeating it. Which you manage to do over and over.

            As far as your reading, perhaps you’ve read, but it obviously doesn’t stick.

            I sort of give up. Feel free to wander in the desert. FWIW, I have strict “idiot” standards and I’ve noted why I have referred to you – or any other poster to whom I’ve referred in that manner – in quite specific terms. If you have a problem with people pointing out that you are an idiot, there is a simple solution. Quit wandering in here and acting like one.

          • clowngirl

            I had no idea you thought any of my diaries were well written. :)

            You’re ignoring the times I pointed out that I did take in your POV and was influenced to change my own position because you presented your case without first insulting me.

            You also seem to have ignored what I’ve told you before – if you called me an idiot in the subject line I probably didn’t even read the post. So, yes, any effort you made to construct a reasoned argument after hurling an insult was utterly wasted.

            It’s a biologicial fact that some people are more sensitive than others – I expect around here there is a prejudice in favor of those with a thick hide. ;)

          • mbecker908

            bull by lots more than me. You’ve ignored them with the same frequency you’ve ignored me.

            In addition, seems like every time you post some silliness and get called out, when you do have an “Oh” moment it doesn’t last long. You’re back to your original premise in hours or certainly days. This commentary is a prime example. You’ve been pounded into oblivion over and over on every point in the original diary and finally, on the McCain stuff, you’ve had this discussion here a dozen times and there’s nothing new here.

            As far as ignoring you, pretty much every ignores you.

          • penguin2

            the individual styles that exist on RedState, otherwise it would probably be down right boring. At this point, you are better off accepting “idiot” because the alternative could be you are a moby/troll. Now I do not want to hurt your feelings, so don’t be a victim with me, I am sincere and honest in speaking with you.

            Becker and others have been incredibly patient and over and over and over again, have explained things to you, only to see you return with the same old thing. So, as a fairly objective person, I am going to say you are either stuck, or deliberately not upfront on your posting here. If you choose to continue in your perception of our GOP in the current way that you do, then it will be the same wasted and frustrating discussions. Keep in mind, the same worn out, at odds, mantra from a poster, becomes suspect over time.

            BTW, if you reread your post of 12/17/09 9:57p.m., right then and there I decided that your flippant attitude and continued bad mouthing and blaming us for Obama’s win was disingenuous on your part. And your supporter jesse v is history now. And all I have seen since is the same old stuff. I have asked you today, what is your focus for 2010?

            The trouble clowngirl? RedState is not going to change, it has a purpose, strategy, game plan, players and direction, etc. Most of us who are here support it, those who have varying beliefs, but can support and discuss realistically, have no problem. This site is about change, trading out the old establishment GOP for a party that is conservative based and viable with real conservative principles. As long as you want to hear something else, you will be unhappy with us, and not like the responses you get.

          • aesthete

            That’s some good advice for clowngirl there, penguin.

          • clowngirl

            It would be easy enough to just shut up about John McCain, not disagree with how RedState chooses to run itself and only post when I feel inclined to write something that will not be disagreeable, use RedState as a news source and don’t post very often. Just stay within the areas of common ground.

            That’s probably more or less what I’ll shift to doing. Or perhaps I’ll only post if I hear about some particular outrage that for some reason isn’t getting attention and occassionally recommend diaries and post a compliment or two.

            As to goals for 2010: like anyone else I’d like to see the GOP take the House and flip as many seats as possible in the Senate. How I fit into that plan I’m not sure yet. If Guiliani were running there would be a hot Senate race here in NY since he isn’t will see who does run or I might road trip to PA and support PatToomey in his race against Specter – but I don’t know at this point if that will be realistic with regard to my schedule or not. It might be too much time, I might also accept a job out of town that’s very demanding so I may have to contribute in a less hands on way.

            My frustrations with stubborn conservatives re: the last election were quite sincere and I’m sorry you took it otherwise. I suppose on political websites it is common to find people who are dishonest – and so I’ll try not to take it personally but your reaction does confirm for me that I should spend less time posting here and to keep in mind that I am very much a stranger here. -and that I don’t like the way folks here argue.

            I am in sympathy with RedState’s goals – not so much with the tone. There are people in life that you aren’ t sympatico enough with to really be close friends but that it’s possible to have a perfectly friendly aquaintance with within certain parameters – I think it’s like that.

            You’re making a good point – RedState isn’t going to change into what I think it should be- and I need to basically take it or leave it.

            Anyway, I suppose I should thank you for what is intended as a helpful post and I hope you had a Merry Christmas.

          • mbecker908

            …only post when I feel inclined to write something that will not be disagreeable…

            The issue with you is not, nor has it ever been, posting something that is “disagreeable”. It is that what you post is factually and historically wrong (note, not “inaccurate”, wrong) and your arguments are not logically constructed and are indefensible.

            NOTE: not “disagreeable”, “indefensible”.

            I would cite, as an absolute defense of that charge, that you do not attempt to defend your statements, you simply resort to either empty praise (that’s an interesting point, I’ll get back to you – and you dont) or you play the victim card.

            Your “sincere” frustrations are about as meaningless as “sincerely believing” that you can grab hold of a live 220 volt line and everything will be fine. When you are wrong the level of your sincerity doesn’t matter one whit.

            As for “not lik[ing] the way folks here argue”, there is a simple explanation for that. The men and women who post here on a regular or semi-regular basis have a good understanding of history, of the way politics actually work on a day to day basis and understand (and in some cases know personally) the players.

            As for the “stubborn” part, we are stubborn because we actually have foundational beliefs built on the work done by the Founders. That is in stark contrast with most of the population and certainly most professional politicians. John McCain for example.

            The bottom line, once again, you don’t have a clue about history, about the way politics works or the players. You also have no foundation upon which to believe. The much larger problem than those things, which are the result of ignorance which is easily fixable, is that you refuse to listen, you refuse to understand the lessons of history and you insist on being a victim.

            You’ve quite well summarized your tenure here with your last line. “I suppose I should thank you for what is intended…” I’m not going to bother explaining to you just how offensive that petty little offering is. You have the audacity to toss that off to P2 when she has been out front defending and trying to support and educate you for weeks. You are beyond pathetic.

          • penguin2

            I did have a laugh on her “not disagree with how RedState chooses to run itself.” That should bring a chuckle to many of the RS members, considering the site is owned and we are guests. But you’re right, her last little dig, just made me think it was time for her pick up her tiddly winks and go home.

          • clowngirl

            mBecker,

            I wrote a diary about how Americans of my generation have basically lived our whole lives during the “Conservative Interlude” and therefore likely take the benefits of conservative governence for granted and start thinking government should do some grandiose thing – but pointed out how, when they have been without competent government they’ve come to appreciate the rightful role of government. I did no research aside from just generally following the news. 12-15 people recommended it and nobody had anything bad to say.

            I wrote a diary about the hypocrisy of liberals who keep saying Republicans aren’t respectful enough while they are totally disrespectful. 15-20 people recommended it. Nobody had anything bad to say. Spent maybe 2 hours doing research.

            I wrote a couple of diaries about Americans increased tolerance towards communism – did maybe 5-6 hours of research. A handful of folks recommended them. Nobody had anything bad to say.

            I’ve spent much more time reading up on – am more informed about John McCain than any of these other topics. There is a problem when I post about McCain because I don’t agree with you guys about John McCain. If I’d posted something like ” I can’t stand John McCain. He’s a disgrace.” you wouldn’t particularly care if that was an uninformed view – because it is in sympathy with most RSers views on the subject.

            As to saying I’ll get back to you. mBecker you bailed on me in the middle of a discussion the other day. You said the Torture Ban was unneccessary because the military was already handling it – I brought up the issue of publicity and the damage to our image as a result of the Times (for example) publicizing Abu Graib. You didn’t bother responding to that point and said I wasn’t worth discussing anything with. I had genuinely intended to go back through McCain’s various statements on the war ( a rather time consuming process) and respond to your comment but seeing as nobody else was discussing the point and you’d just declared me a waste of time so I decided not to bother,

            You seem to take the perspective that you can be as rude as you like to me – repeatedly state that you only waste time on me for the sake of entertaining yourself – and yet I’m supposed to hang on your every insulting word as if it were manna from heaven. I think you are smart and informed and I like reading things that you write that aren’t directed at me but if you call me an idiot do not expect me to dig through the rest of your post to see what I can learn from it.

            If you’re trying to educate me – then be halfway respectful. If you just like insulting me – that’s your free speech – but don’t expect me to look to you as a mentor or respect you when you’re doing that.

            I’m happy to drop subjects that cause problems and discontinue arguing with you mBecker. Penguin2 wisely advised me that I’m not going to change Redstate. Well, you’re not going to change clowngirl. I may adopt more of your views and attitudes over time but not because someone calls me an idiot or a troll for disagreeing with them now. I see namecalling is a form of coercion and it causes me to shut down. As I said I have my own little moral code about it,

            There’s simply no point in me weighing in on John McCain, “the Republican Civil War” or anything else I’m likely to sharply disagree on because it’s just not going to be productive. That isn’t being a victim, it’s just being realistic.

            So, all these subjects are now closed in terms of my participation. I think it’s best for everyone involved and something I should have done since the beginning,

          • mbecker908

            You’ve absolutely reinforced every word of criticism that’s been written about you.

            Your statement of victimhood here pretty well substantiates the fact that you’re a pathetic troll.

            As far as AG is concerned, what went on there was NOT torture. Torture is defined, and has been for years, in US Code, by treaty and in the UCMJ. What happened at AG, while it was abusive treatment of detainees was in no way torture. It’s not torture under McCain’s pathetic exercise in self-indulgence either. FYI, the US Army had begun an investigation into AG and it was completed and forwarded to JAG for action before any of this came out. and it came out because the Army released the information without any push from Congress or the media. The people who were charged, were charged and convicted under then existing UCMJ code and are serving time based on that. None of that suggests torture.

            Once again, nobody has ever said you shouldn’t post on any subject. However, again since I said this not a couple of hours ago, come up with an argument that is factually based, historically accurate and cogent. You have yet to do that. THAT is why you get pounded. You act like an idiot, expected to be called out for what you are. I’m not “calling you names” I’m simply stating a demonstrated fact.

            I’m pretty much done with you with this post. Next time you pop up with one of your pathetic little oh-poor-me-I’m-a-victim routines I’ll just wake up TheBunny.

          • mbecker908

            controversial topics are what the forum is all about. The problem for you is that it’s important to be able mount an intelligent arguent based on fact and history.

            Most everyone else manages to wander though the minefield with no major problems. Maybe one day when you grow up you can try it again.

          • aesthete

            To start with, the “conservatives vs. moderates” stuff falls into the lexicon of political clich

          • clowngirl

            Happy New Year to you too!

    • Third Street

      …then perhaps you can be forgiven for your incredible naivete regarding McCain. But you have a hell of a lot to learn, about politics in general and McCain in particular. Your evaluation of Senator Queeg does read very much like someone approaching him for the first time, going off selective readings of his record.

      For those of us who were around in 2000, watching McCain rear his head once again in the ’08 primaries, racing toward the nomination after having been left for dead a few months before, was our worst nightmare come true. McCain was literally the very last person any of us wanted to see grab the Republican nomination, because we remembered the bitterness of the Bush/McCain primaries in ’00, and the behavior of Johnny Mac as a truly vindictive son of a bitch; we remembered CFR; we remembered the Gang of 14. We remembered every single time this ass took an opportunity to slip a knife into GWB’s back. Conservative opinion of McCain was so low in late ’07 that few people thought of him as a serious contender.

      It therefore wasn’t hard, as McCain was roaring ahead in early ’08, for many conservatives to migrate to Romney, as the only candidate with a real chance of denying McCain the nomination. I did, and I certainly was wary of Mitt, too. But most of us saw all too clearly what was going to happen if the GOP nominated a presidential candidate that the base absolutely loathed. And the party did. And our fears came true.

      Meghan McCain? Let’s not even go there. No, let’s… just… not.

      Get a few more election cycles under your belt. Especially after ’08, one of the most unusual and ahistoric cycles in most of our lifetimes. Pay attention to these people for long enough to know whether or not they’re what they might seem to be on paper.

  • rbdwiggins

    Got twenty minutes?

    The bar has been set incredibly high.

    • nessa

      Another fitting for this thread is Let Them Go Their Way March 1975 at CPAC. I couldn’t find a video though, my bing is weak.

    • mbecker908

      and darn near every other speech Reagan made.

    • clowngirl

      I remember last year David Brooks and company were going on about how Reagan conservatism is obsolete and Republicans need to evolve, blah, blah, blah and basically become less conservative, but his words are more relevant than ever. And much of it is just clear eyed, common sense:

      “In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem. From time to time we’ve been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by and of the people. But if no one among us is capable of governing himself who among us has the capacity to govern someone else?”

      I expect as Americans are learning about the disaster Democrats are trying to inflict upon our healthcare system they’ll be thinking very much along those lines.

      • nessa

        The difference between him and all the pretenders is that he lived it. His remarks to the press, his easy, pat answers were the result of his deep convictions, NOT his reaction to a recent poll or the perceived “mood” of the voters. Character, convictions and principles are what made him great, how could those things ever become obsolete?

        • clowngirl

          Reagan’s rhetoric was – in a way- deceptively simple. The ideas were profound but because he understood them so thoroughly he was able to present them in a way that was clear, to the point, often funny and digestible by those without prior knowledge. He was able to meet people where they were.

          Obama, in contrast rambles on and on without generally saying anything and even his followers don’t understand what he’s talking about. Of course there’s more than one factor at work – Obama is not only lacking in the conviction, character. etc. of Reagan but he goal is the opposite -not to explain his ideology and agenda but to obfuscate it.

  • http://brillish.com John Brill

    Clowngirl,

    I’m not going to say you have to read all of these, but you’d be well off by reading most of them.

    Good book to start off with:
    “Conscience of a Conservative” by Barry Goldwater

    Two books essential to understanding the 20th century:
    “Liberal Fascism” by Jonah Goldberg
    “Modern Times: the Wolrd from the 20s to the 90s” by Paul Johnson

    Two books essential to understand capitalism, economics, and how government fails:
    “Capitalism and Freedom” by MIlton Friedman
    “Free to Choose” by Milton Friedman

    “On Liberty” by John Stewart Mill
    This one is on liberty and is appropriately titled. Published in 1859. It is not only an excellent essay on the subject, but I found it helpful to understand that the issues we face today are the same issues people have faced for centuries.

    “Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln ” by Doris Kearns Goodwin
    Very good for understanding the foundation of the Republican Party. Again, very useful for seeing how a lot of what goes on today is nothing new.

    And watch this video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioQooFIcgE

    I hope these help you better understand the history and ideas that inform the views of us here on Redstate.

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  • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

    It is all ok for you to be warning us of infighting and name calling and circular firing squad and all that, but you are coming late to the party.

    We have been fighting these people (the country club Republicans) for nearly one hundred years. They took the great program that Reagan left us and flushed it down the toilet.

    If we do not defeat them, then ALL of the policies put into place by the Democrats will remain entrenched and unchanged. Because they will not oppose them.

    You are correct to say that McCain does not fit into the mold of the Rockefeller republicans, but he has been in Washington too long and he often aligns himself with those people as well as Democrats in order to be seen “doing something” when it would be more advantageous to do nothing or to actively oppose.

    We cant convince you about McCain, I guess you will just have to be disappointed by him yourself (it will happen). But please do not lecture us. This is a fight for our way of life and I count a significant portion of the Republican party as my enemies as much or more so than the most liberal Democrats.

  • mbecker908

    I just don’t have time this morning to completely dissect this piece of crap, but maybe I will tonight. I will note a couple of things.

    1. Jaded is right on the mark. You aren’t.
    2. Then there’s this… I

  • JSobieski

    The GOP establishment has been fighting with conservatives since Goldwater’s day. When conservatives respond in kind, we are being devisive? When RHINOs trash conservatives, they are given all sorts of accolades by the MSM.

    Being a RHINO takes absolutely no courage whatsoever. Triangulating to please the media is not a sign of character and it is not a pathway to success.

    The Republican brand is crap because it deviates from conservatism, not because it is too conservative. It is long past due for a war against the GOP establishment.

  • Scope

    and you didn’t dissapoint. When you start to write from a love fest going on in your head and heart for McCain, you sound like a cultist. Your worship of your hero discludes you from any rationality or reason. You consistently ignore the facts of what damage McCain has done to the party and the country, but, instead choose to highlight and glorify the infrequent moments when he may have said or done something even remotely conservative. And those moments for McCain mostly happen when he is running for re-election. Then they dissapear for another 6 years.

    To be honest, I didn’t read the entire diary. Once I read the first few paragraphs, I knew what the end of the story would be. You need to take your love fest elsewhere, you won’t get many, if any, converts here. Your constant rose-colored glasses for McCain is getting tiring and boring. I doubt you’d find to many other sites where you can preach with the choir either. The man needs to be retired, and sent back to an Arizona rest home.

  • penguin2

    Reading this diary really changes my mind on the benefit of the doubt. Your third paragraph “….in having an opportunistic and weak candidate who can be counted on to always appease…” for me that describes John McCain. When he became the candidate, I accepted it. When Sarah joined the ticket and the base was fired up, I thought we actually had a chance. When he did not debate or follow-up on critical points in the campaign, I began to wonder what was going on…When he said Barack Obama would make a “good president,” in that moment I knew we had lost the election.

    As far as Megan McCain is concerned, IMO, it will take her awhile to get to center from the left. This is based on her behavior and words post election 2008.

    Back to my original premise, you’ve known all along the purpose of RedState, and we are succeeding in the approach Erick and the others have laid out, so why should we change now?

  • clowngirl

    and it is hard for me to understand all the animosity towards other Republicans.

    My experience with the GOP is limited to volunteering to campaign for McCain last year and activities related to that. I didn’t understand then why so many self proclaimed conservatives insisted on attacking their nominee long after he’d secured the nomination and was running under extraordinarily difficult conditions against a guy who could was basically a communist. Not only was almos the entire MSM committed to defeating the GOP but even supposedly neutral sights like factcheck.org, etc. and it was appalling what they got away with. Any time I watched CNN (which admittedly was not often – generally either when I was at the gym and there was nothing else on their screens or when the Fox News wasn’t coming through for some reason) they had some blatant lie -or, to be very charitable, misinformation that someone present should have known to correct.

    with all of this, it was beyond me why some conservatives saw it as the time to air their grievances.

    But I don’t really understand those grievances that much better now. To me it looks like elected Republicans have been fairly united against Obama’s agenda and have done a pretty good job under very difficult circumstances.

    You are correct that it’s unlikely that I’ll be persuaded to dislike McCain. I admire McCain and seeing him bashed continually, after awhile I feel like it’s cowardly to stand by and say nothing.

  • clowngirl

    I’m not a troll. Just a new Republican who thought she’d join a Republican website and who doesn’t fit in here. My purpose isn’t to disrupt RedState. I don’t enjoy getting into fights. I”m really quite disappointed to be rejected.

    I just disagree/ don’t understand to the point where it feels intellectually dishonest not to say anything.I like McCain, I’m inclined to like John Boehner -I dont’ see why they’re regarded as the enemy.

    I’m not going to keep banging my head against the wall. I might occassionally post something that nobody would be likely to disagree with- or I may not even bother and go back to just reading .

    So, I suppose you can declare victory.

  • gunnerbs

    Conservatives did not insist “on attacking thier nominee long after he secured the nomination.”

    CONSERVATIVES DIDN’T HAVE A NOMINEE!!!!!!!

    Why can’t you get that? To the extent that conservatives pulled the lever for McCain, most didn’t do it because McCain’s a conservative. Just because McCain is (slightly) to the right of Obama doesn’t make him conservative.

    Stop using conservative and Republican interchangably–they aren’t interchangeable. (kinda like RedState and GOP, see?)

    I believe in some of the same things as the Libertarian Party…but they are wrong on some issues and I’ll call them on it, and believing in a few of the same things doesn’t make me libertarian. I believe conservatism represents the best approach in governing our country, and I’ll call out as wrong anyone who preaches non-conservative principles–I don’t give a rat’s a$$ about thier party. I also believe the GOP represents the conservative’s best hope in gaining back a majority in our government. But a Republican majority doesn’t do the country any good if the party isn’t filled as much as possible with conservatives.

  • http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

    That will put you on the right track. Do not feel discouraged. The education system in the US has been co-opted by radicals and they taught you what they wanted you to know.

    Here, we encourage bold, open debate and have extremely high expectations because in the end, we are all responsible for our abilities, not what the system has crammed in. You must take responsibility for your growth as a conservative.. You will get all the encouragement you need here…and none of the coddling that makes for weak analysis.

  • clowngirl

    was to wage war with other Republicans.

    I am not expecting RedState to change. I just don’t believe in going along with things I think are destructive.

  • gunnerbs

    He thinks it. He knows it.

    Liberals “feel”.

    Conservatives think.

  • nessa

    The about page describes RS as “RedState is the leading blog for right of center online activists.”

    Right of center does not translate to Republican, nor always to conservative. Not all Republicans are right of center, not all of those right of center are conservative.

    We here want to use the Republican Party to promote conservative policies and governance as has been done in the past. We are a seperate entity from the Republican Party, or within the Republican Party.

    You are a Republican but you are much nearer the center than the majority of us here. Thats going to cause disagreement, as you have noticed. Sort out your basket, get the apples, oranges and kiwis separated so you know what you’re dealing with. Try The Political Compass, see where you stand on the political spectrum and look at some of the other positions. It might serve to arm you better for your posts here.

  • clowngirl

    “Just because McCain is (slightly) to the right of Obama doesn’t make him a conservative”

    Saying McCain is not a conservative is one thing but convincing yourself he is only marginally different from Obama is something else entirely.

  • Aaron Gardner

    McCain is a pragmatic progressive. He is a stepping stone to people like Obama. McCain’s political idol isn’t Kirk, or Burke, or even Eisenhower. No McCain’s political hero is Teddy Roosevelt, one of the first progressives and nationalists, who went on to split the Republican party and run under his own banner only to lose to the Democrat. Sound familiar? Yeah, McCain didn’t start a new party, but he certainly tried to nudge this one under his banner rather than him conforming to the principles of the Party.

    You get treated like a fool here because not only do you not know history, you reject it when it is presented before you. Instead of standing on the merits of your beliefs and letting the chips fall where they may in the battlefield of ideas, you accuse people of being mean when they are merely imparting knowledge to you.

    And if all of that wasn’t enough, once you felt threatened you simply pulled your post. This is an absolutely childish thing to do for a few reasons. First, you should be mature enough to not post something you can’t stand by. Second, by deleting the post you create a false impression for those who come late to the discussion, you pre-frame the argument to put yourself in the place of the innocent victim. It is a lowly, deceitful thing to do, and I encourage you to put the post back up and take from this experience whatever you can. The criticisms of the other commenters have many pearls of wisdom contained within them is only you were to look with an open mind.

  • penguin2

    destructive. We are working to change the GOP establishment from inside the party. NO third party here. The Tea Party activists are made up of conservatives and independents, so obviously there are others who are in disagreement with the Republican Party, go along to get along. See Jaded’s diary today.

    http://www.redstate.com/jaded/2009/12/17/does-the-national-gop-recognize-who-the-tea-party-people-are/

    We have been effecting change, we are not destructive, in fact we are doing it in a positive way, otherwise one would not see the success of recent elections. In the end, RedState is a Conservative/Republican site, with the primary goal to promote conservatism, and I think it is clearly recognized that we are doing it within the Republican Party.

  • janis

    We are all about trying to destroy the mentality that exists in both parties, i.e., that the government exists only to enrich and benefit the government, not the governed. If you can’t see that, or don’t believe that we need to do that, then you don’t belong here.

    Your rightful place would be to support the Main Street Republicans. And they are not well represented at RedState.

  • Scope

    are destructive. You’ve referred to some of Erick Erickson’s diaries as destructive. You unfortunately picked up some of the worst parts of McCain’s sick, enemic, unconvincing, pandering campaign. What part of constantly reaching across the aisle, to those that never ever reach back, do you not get. What part of the Liberals fight dirty do you not get. What part of McCain, and his liberal buddies that have been the major destruction to the Republican party, have you missed. What part of those that voted for Obama as the lesser of 2 evils did you miss.

    clowngirl you are posting on the wrong site. To come here and tell the majority of members and Erick Erickson that we are all destructive, because we don’t agree with you, is a sure way to cut your membership short.

  • penguin2

    that you really are sincere, I was just so taken aback by your post. this morning. And as a moby is someone who is here in disguise, well then I’ll take back the label. OTOH, with all that you have read and participated in here, it is difficult for me to understand your continued adherence to false premises. I thought we were past that stage of not accepting RINOs or Dem lite anymore in the GOP, or at least to modify what we can by encouraging conservatives and conservatism.

    This site has plenty of folks who have varying viewpoints, and candidates; we are not in lockstep in the details, but I do think the majority are here because they want to promote the goals of this site.

    BTW, I am familiar with Redeemer Church and Pastor Keller, it is highly thought of.

  • clowngirl

    I pulled my post because not because I wanted to present myself as some kind of victim, I don’t. There’s just no reason to leave it up there so more and more people can call me a troll or a moby.

    I’m not accusing anyone of being mean – except for mBecker who repeatedly called me an idiot – I just don’t fit in here and there’s no reason to leave my POV up so it can be rejected or made fun of throughout the day. It’s not a question of people being mean – it’s just that rejection does hurt. Not intentionally – it just does. Enough people have responded so unanimously that I think I’ve gotten the point.

    I’ll still use RedState as a news source and I may occassionally post something that won’t be likely to be controversial – like some of my earlier diaries.

    I don’t think RedState has been unfair to me – I’m just on a different page from the rest of all in terms of the whole issue of differing with the Republican establishment.

  • Aaron Gardner

    All yo did was justify and then plead for pity for being rejected. Imagine how rejected history feels when you ignore it the way you do.

  • clowngirl

    which doesn’t surprise me. Not that near the center – but also not way over on the far right – about halfway in between. About what I would’ve guessed. That would probably score me as a “Rank and File Republican” not a “conservative” and that’s fine with me.

    I don’t agree with you about conservatism not being something that can grow or be learned – Rush talks about how people are naturally liberal minus the conscious development of conservatism. And mentioning the Porkulus – I was appalled by it as were most Republicans. The differences between self described conservatives and the party establishment are not as definitely not as broad as that.

  • http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

    because Conservatives have put the fear of irrelevance in them. Oh, and the loss of that sweet pay-check, perks and all that attention. The GOP leadership at the National level has been selling out the Conservatives for the last 15 years and they know are teetering on the edge of the abyss as a result. We slapped in the face this year ans they are starting to fear the loss of our ear.

  • Vaughn Harold

    it’s also vitally necessary to call out those who are propagating a false doctrine.

    The war going on within the Republican Party is about what doctrine we will disperse, and it’s a war conservatives must win.

    Anyone that can be a potential leader of the wrong doctrine is going to be attacked.

    It’s politics.

  • clowngirl

    I don’t think the majority of what RedState does is destructive. I think the majority of what RedState does is very good.

    I think it is counter productive to excessively focus on differences within the GOP.

  • Leopard1996

    If you are still reading this, let me try to explain to you why people feel McCain was never one of us, and some of the other sitting republicans in office currently are not one of us.

    1. They never met a spending program they didn’t like, which allowed liberals and dems to pin fiscal irresponsibility on us, hence the beatings in 2006 and 2008.

    2. The whole gang of 14 thing, which yes did allow Bush to put Alito and Roberts on the bench, but it would have been better overall to take the stand and say look, we let your Presidents nominate an idiot like Beyder-Ginsburg, and we let it walk without much opposition, our president puts up someone like Gonzalez, and pull every scumbag tactic against us. Then play the race card (Sotomayor) if we even consider it. McCain should have joined with the other GOP senators and allowed the fight go to a point of “nuclear option” so that more of Bush’s nominiees could have gone through.

    3. Immigration reform, instead of attempting to fix the problems, some of the GOP in power want to join up with the Liberals, LaRaza, SEIU, and others and throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of looking at what is causing the delays and then if feasible fix those delays.

    Those are just three things that got many folks here, (me included) pissed off at the whole thing. On top of that, McCain and others like him (Lindsey Graham, et. al) love to be nice and collegial to the likes of Reid, and other dems in the senate, and it is never reciprocated, everything that gets screwed up is bi-partisan, everything that might work, even if it got GOP votes, no credit would ever be given.

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    Being at Redeemer is an excellent choice, and here’s hoping you will have a long and mutually edifying membership there. One of your elders actually used to be a member in my church until job obligations required him to move; we actually bought his house when he left 18 years ago, which he sold at a very low price to ensure we would get it and be able to move into the neighborhood of our church. Big city, small world!

  • clowngirl

    I don’t support RINOs. I just get the impression the label is thrown around overly broadly and that there is contempt, not only for RINOs but for genuine Republicans (who I would even have taken for conservatives) who are fully in agreement in terms of issues but differ only on the question of tactics.

    RedState was a site where I started going for information and after the election, when the various McCain sites were becoming no more I became a member here. I basically thought of it as a site for Republicans.

    I see McCain much differently than most here – it’s not that I think he is perfect. But I do see him as a courageous and principled man who has done what he thinks is right. So a lot of the posting here makes me a bit uncomfortable. Besides that – I do sometimes think that conservatives who insisted on blasting McCain, forcing him to constantly focus on the GOP base, etc., etc. may have cost us the election.

    And besides that I am inclined to think Boehner and McConnell are doing a pretty good job and probably have reasons for the tactics they choose.

    Finally, I did not intend any of this as an attack on RedState or on Erick Erickson. I was responding to one particular post. I have generally been positively impressed with Erick and certainly respect the work he has been doing.

  • penguin2

    “to focus on differences within the GOP” because that is exactly where the problem is between the GOP being just another version of the Democratic Party (called Dem lite), and being a party of Conservative principles.

    “Counter productive”? No, I would say it has been very productive. That is the only way you can effect change.

    Let me ask you this, what are your goals? I mean this really should not be about McCain anymore, we have moved on, so what is it that you do not like? You do not like EE’s and RedState’s treatment of the establishment GOP; well if we let Boehner et al continue in this manner, no change will happen. Do you want Obama’s HC monstrosity to pass?

  • nessa

    Go back and play with it, take it again except give different answers, see where it changes. There are better tests out there as well, many are more detailed. The charts afterwards and the comparisons to other people are good learning tools. It really isn’t best depicted as a line chart, or as we describe left/right, there are other dimensions, up/down, statist/libertarian, chaos/law.

    So if you round our test scores off to make them fit on an innacurate chart there is going to be a lot of disagreement even among those who fall closely together on the chart. Most of that disagreement will be in the fine points, many of which I don’t think you have identified yet. In alot of instances you seem to intermingle your terms, as if “conservative” is a synonym for “republican” it is decidedly different, as you’re seeing.

    Conservatism is learned, I didn’t mean to imply that it isn’t. It starts with basic common sense but you have to learn to develop and grow. When an issue like the economy and the stimulus rears its ugly head your common sense may say “Throwing money at it isn’t going to help” but what is the conservative solution, what proves the conservative solution, and how/why will it work? That is what people have to learn and develop. As for what Rush says, i think most young people start out liberal, liberalism works very well in small microcosms of society, when it’s ingrained denial of human nature is protected. Like in your parents home, in school, or later in a university, or protected by a union or government job. Exposure to the real world usually beats that liberalism out of them in short order as long as they don’t continue in a protected state. In my opinion anyway.

  • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

    her hero McCain will stab her in the back one too many times and she will realize that we were right.

  • Scope

    because she clearly doesn’t have any concept of what conservative (noun) is. Until she comes to terms with her love affair with McCain she will never “get it.” It’s like an abused spouse or girlfriend who just keeps staying around for more.

  • aesthete

    because, IMO, you are being na

  • clowngirl

    I don’t know that much about him, but I still think it’s absurd to suggest McCain is only slightly to the right of Obama.

  • clowngirl

    as usual with multiple choice things I sometimes wanted to answer None of the Above and to fill in my own choice ( for example when it asked whether we should focus more on punishing or rehabilitating criminals, I wanted to put “How about restitution for the victims?” – for some crimes anyway) and I didn’t have a firm opinion on some of the stuff they asked.

    But I thought it was reasonably accurate. I’m not as centrist as you seem to think, but it’s probably accurate to say I’m not as conservative as most of you guys and I’m just in a different place than most of the rest of y’all right now. During the Bush years I was as frustrated with the GOP establishment as you could want and even more disgusted with the Democrats. Now I’m suddenly feeling supportive of politicians and giving them the benefit of the doubt.

  • penguin2

    the benefit of the doubt.” No, no this is the very time when you should not be trusting of the politicians, wait until they have proven themselves. Right now, they are not showing the strength we need, or maybe only a few are, it has yet to play itself out. Someone said somewhere, “trust but verify” question and learn, but do not just accept these politicians who have been in office the same years, Pres. Bush was in, and more. Pres. Bush is no longer in, but they remain, why would you think they are going to do anything differently than they have?

    It is better to be questioning, than to become complacent. IMO, if you are so steadfast in thinking the establishment GOP is the way to go, then it will be frustrating for you in discussions here. Give yourself a little leeway, if you really like and respect EE and this forum.

  • clowngirl

    I was exposed to Redeemer during my 2nd year in NYC and was impressed but didn’t want to travel across town – attended the Times Square Church for awhile and then the church down the street (which I am not naming since I mentioned it negatively) but attended Redeemer occassionally with friends that went there and found I really strongly preferred it and, as much as CS Lewis talks about not lookign for “the right choice” I feel like I was led there.

    I still have great admiration for the Times Square Church and still go to an occassional weekday service. Very different from Redeemer. One has very emotional sermons, a 100 voice choir, people shouting out amens and hallelujah left and right – the other involves a studious 4 point sermon and everybody quietly taking notes. ;)

  • Aaron Gardner
  • clowngirl

    than form,

  • http://andrightlyso.com/ civil_truth

    …when the moderators determined he was posting in bad faith.

    Overall, a good exposition of the nature of RedState and some good advice for clowngirl.

  • clowngirl

    I cooled off quicker than expected. ;)

    “Ideologues are part and parcel of any ideological movement, and any attempt to talk any ideologue out of their doctrine only serves to frustrate both parties”

    LOL! Very True and you make a good point that I haven’t been very diplomatic in discussing McCain. It’s less a question of being uninformed ( I did over a 1000 pages of research on McCain before supporting him) as that I have a different interpretation of him. It’ s not that I think conservative anger is baseless so much as that I don’t think they should be constantly fanning the flames, Anger can start with legitimate concerns and tranform itself into something toxic (see BDS)

    But one thing I think is clear is that if I continue to participate at RedState McCain is just a topic I’m going to have to (in my own mind) agree to disagree on and generally keep quiet about.

    Anyway, I hope you have a wonderful holiday and thank you for making it clear that “fellow travelers” are welcome.

    Having had a little time to reflect – and having looked at some of my diary again- I can see why it would engender hostility. There were plenty of better ways I could have handled it. ;)

  • clowngirl

    For not being particularly interested in the viewpoint of someone who opens every comment on the subject of McCain by calling me an idiot. ( I may be exagerrating but I don’t think so)

    When someone employs ad hominem attacks I’m inclined to
    A, have a lower opinion of them
    B. not read any further
    C, be naturally resistant to their view because I don’t care for someone trying to shame or bully me into changing my mind.

    Yes, maybe if I had taken the approach of saying “please explain to me why I should be disgusted with John McCain” mBecker would likely have been more civil but I had wanted to defend him. (shrug)

  • clowngirl

    and get back to you.

    But I don’t think it’s going to convince me that McCain was only “slightly” to the right of Obama.

  • mbecker908

    Unfortunately.

  • clowngirl

    After Obama’s inauguration I went online and read Reagan’s inaugural address outloud with some friends. Very inspiring and it suceeded in uplifting our mood but in another way heightened the sense of tragedy in heightening the contrast between what a President should be and, well, what we have.

    Great suggestion and I will take it!

  • mbecker908

    learning a thing or two about history and about contemporary politics.

    I have explained my issues with McCain more times than I can count. So has Martin Knight. So have a dozen others. You stand in your cone of silence and chose to remain ignorant. You keep bringing up the same old “feelings”, ignoring or pleading ignorance about the historical and legislative records and then you whine when you get taken to the woodshed.

    You have never addressed any of the issues that have been put forth, you just whine about how you feel we should be nicer and not act like we’re in a war. Well clown, I’ve got news for you. We ARE in a war. Take a look at the New Deal and the Great Society and the expansion program of Jimmy Carter (that would be the Department of Education) and find one program that has been eliminated in the last 80 years. Hint, none. The Democrats, with the active participation of McCain and Graham and several others are in the process of expanding the role of government even further. If they pass healthcare it won’t be repealed, any more than we can cut funding to NPR.

    I have never engaged in an ad hominem attack on you. I’ve cited history and facts until I’m blue (or red) in the face and you simply ignore them. Same for Martin and a dozen others. I’ve generally come to the point where I know that you will not engage in a discussion based on fact or the historical record. The basics of a logical argument are well beyond you. It’s become utterly pointless to engage you beyond pointing out that you are displaying your ignorance again. Which you are here.

  • Richard Mullins

    So please stop being so ignorant and reading up on thing. That seems to be one thing you don’t do well, read history(I do that very well since I love reading history books). Their is enough stuff out that proves are point about John “the opportunist” McCain. Start using your favorite search engine and you should find what we know. If you just do that, we’ll have a better respect of you(We will but up the baseball bat when that happens).

  • mbecker908

    at Redstate that has been discussing the lack of leadership or the wrong headed leadership in both houses. You are willfully ignorant.

  • clowngirl

    I didn’t say I hadn’t seen anyone posting about what they perceived as a lack of leadership. What I said was that the differences were about tactics – not about principles.

    The posts I’ve seen have (for example) railed on Mitch McConnell for not using delaying tactics sooner. That is a difference of opinion on how to proceed – not on the issue itself. RedStaters want – I would think unanimously- to see Obamacare killed. Mitch McConnell wants Obamacare killed and is therefore basically on the same side.

    It’s very easy to Monday Morning Quarterback or rail on the person who has responsibility assuming if only they’d do it your way it would all be so easy.

    I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing with Mitch McConnell and urging him to be more aggressive in slowing down debate- what I think is a problem is when he starts being viewed as the enemy – with folks suggested he somehow WANTS healthcare to pass so he can be Majority Leader, etc.