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Coming Down from the Ledge Watch: the Preliminary walkback from the antiwar movement.
And may I note that it's about flipping time?
By Moe Lane Posted in 2008 | Pass the Popcorn | The Best Democratic Primary EVER — Comments (29) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
The Sun notices something (Via Glenn):
A funny thing happened on the way to Senator Clinton’s primary win Tuesday night in Pennsylvania, her party started moving back toward reality on the war. It may not be all the way, yet. but it turned in the right direction. And it’s not just that the former first lady’s campaign ran ads asking whether Senator Obama was ready to handle international crises as a president and featuring, for the first time of any ads in the campaign, the image of Osama bin Laden. Mrs. Clinton herself began to come back to reality on the next front — Iran.
The entire editorial is interesting in its own right (as is this retreat from confrontation on funding the war), but I'm mostly bringing it up as part of an observation that I've finally fully articulated, and thought I'd share with various no-doubt bemused individuals; to wit, why it is that we go after Obama hammer and tongs on natsec issues but largely give Clinton a pass. It's actually very simple: we don't believe a word she says on the issue, which makes her more reliable.
No, really.
Read on.
It's like this, you see: Senator Clinton is trying to get elected, and she's been trimming on this issue from Day One. She's stuck in a Party that dislikes national security policy questions, is not very good at formulating those questions, and is even worse at answering them - so she's been stuck with pandering to them. She's not even trying to get more votes from them; her realistic objective was always to minimize the damage. In other words, we don't believe that she actually has a principled stance on the subject, which means (paradoxically) that she's not going to either ignore objective reality if she gets in the Oval Office, or let her past utterances adversely affect her in any way, shape, or form. And Clinton certainly won't take any risks on this. At all. We can work with that.
As for Senator Obama... well, the only thing that he has been clear and unambiguous about is his opposition to the war - which, by the way, is going fairly well at the moment (see also Bill Roggio) - and we cannot give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. When he says he'd have us bug out of Iraq, the only thing that any reasonably objective observer can conclude is that he means it. He probably wouldn't mean to let happen next what will happen next if we bug out, but that's not exactly a comfort, particularly if you happen to live anywhere near an instantly-recognizable American landmark.
Put another way: God help us all, he's just not playing to the antiwar crowd. Senator Obama really does have the national security awareness of a walnut.
So there you go.
Moe Lane
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Coming Down from the Ledge Watch: the Preliminary walkback from the antiwar movement. 29 Comments (0 topical, 29 editorial, 0 hidden) Post a comment »
Obama wins the nomination....
by Pnuka77
As more great news comes out of Iraq, imagine if he flipped or severely eased his war stance to try to level the playing field with McCain.
Impossible? Improbable?
To be expected. He's all about the change <nt>
by Repair Man Jack
"I believe we must adjourn this meeting to some other place." - The last recorded words of Adam Smith.
Although I will note that TNR is doing its best to try to walk Obama back down off of the ledge for him.
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
Correct, Moe.
by Socrates
Obama is a dedicated leftist on all fronts, whereas Clinton is a leftist only on certain issues and a moderate on others. There may be some Goldwater Girl left in her, on some level.
But I have a hard time imagining her trying to maintain a stable democratic Iraq rather than allowing it to fail as the legacy of GWB, or rather, to prevent that legacy from taking hold. If her own party were for stability in Iraq, that would be one thing, but they would rather give the place over to the terrorists.
The other issue is that Hillary gets something Obama doesn't: 9/11 was part of a larger series of attacks against America. As a result, our fight is against terrorism generally, and not just against Osama Bin Laden. Obama thinks our policy should be all about revenge for 9/11, in which Iraq doesn't play a part.
--
Gone 2500 years, still not PC.
what the war is really about.
I think a lot of liberals see the war on terrorism as a sort of military led crime control to capture and prosecute Osama.
I don't think that they understand the real threat comes from Islamic extremism that wants and desires a caliphate. They don't want to exist peacefully, they want us to either submit or die.
Kind of hard to find room for negotiation when those are the desired end results.
Now that's a little unfair
by sinz52
Obama fully intends to withdraw our troops from Iraq immediately, just as he has promised.
But the fight against terrorism would continue on other fronts such as Afghanistan-Pakistan. Also on the war of ideas and energy independence fronts, something the Bush Administration totally failed to deal with.
Making the 2008 election into a referendum on continuing to fight in Iraq indefinitely is very risky for McCain. Nobody wants perpetual war against a horde of rapidly breeding fanatics, yet he hasn't explained how he can avoid perpetual war.
I wish the Republicans would start to move away from their Iraq obsession, and try to pin Obama on these other issues: What about Iran? What about North Korea helping Syria to build nukes? What if another country, say Somalia or Yemen, becomes a base for al-Qaeda terrorists just like Afghanistan did? How to balance the need for domestic surveillance of terrorism against civil liberties? What will you do with the terrorists of Gitmo after you close the place? Would your Attorney General ask the death penalty for Osama bin Laden after he's captured?
those are all great questions...
by jdub19
and I look forward to him answering them AFTER his character is proven worthy be addressing the still lingering questions about his church, Ayers, and Rezko.
Until he comes clean there, no dice.
" Got to love the Lord for making things like that."
Morally Compromised
Actually he has refuted himself
by Joliphant
When questioned up close he steadfastly refuses to state a timetable pullout date or anything of a concrete nature.
On the other issues, well he is digging his own hole. Our side doesn't want to stop him and I am pretty certain Hillary doesn't either.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
The Fuzzy Puppy of the VRWC. I've been usurped!
superficiality as performance art
by streiff
1. Why do you think there would be a war left in Afghanistan if we demonstrate we don't have staying power? NATO is already abandoning that war. In the wake of Vietnam we were crippled in our brushfire wars with international communism for the better part of two decades because we were perceived to be unreliable. If we pull the plug on Iraq, there is no way Pakistan cooperates. If Pakistan doesn't cooperate our position in Afghanistan is logistically untenable.
2. Energy independence is hogwash. This isn't on you, but someone has to testify to the obvious. We can't be energy independent so long as we want to have an economy and the internal combustion engine.
3. Okay, we run like scalded dogs from a war we are winning and we want to talk about Iran? Outside of converting to islam I don't see anything to talk about if we are unwilling to fight in Iraq.
4. A "horde of rapidly breeding fanatics." Once we get past the borderline racism of this, how do you discuss Iran, Somalia, Pakistan, etc. if you've demonstrated you're unwilling to do anything but talk? Why would anyone listen?
5. So what if another country becomes a base for al Qaeda? How does this finesse a withdrawal from Iraq?
Your ability to deal in these potential flashpoints is function of your credibility. Now there may be a lot of reasons to wish we weren't in Iraq but we are. How we finish up there will determine how any president is able to deal with current and potential enemies and shaky allies.
"A man does what he can and endures what he must."
You are quite right, Where is this mighty army of Islamic supermen that the left has told us that we are creating by our actions? From what I see, terror incidents around the world are much lower than a few years ago.
Maybe what happened in Iraq was that we created a huge vortex that sucked most of the would be Jihadis into a meat grinder where we killed em. Now there are not so many left who are willing to risk their lives for Jihad.
"Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty"
Kyle
"From what I see, terror
by Porker
"From what I see, terror incidents around the world are much lower than a few years ago"
Got a source?
This is the most recent I
by Porker
This is the most recent I could find:
http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/April/20070425112825idyb...
Have you seen something more
by Porker
Have you seen something more recent to suggest otherwise?
5*5
by skorrent
"If we pull the plug on Iraq, there is no way Pakistan cooperates. If Pakistan doesn't cooperate our position in Afghanistan is logistically untenable."
Could not agree more! It is amazing to me that so many seem to believe that we can abandon Iraq and have any hope of continuing the fight in Afghanistan, or continuing on offence in the GWOT in general. We are left with trying to arrest and try suicide bombers, which is a little difficult after the fact.
Outstanding
by AzRenegade
Outstanding post Mr Streiff, if I may say so.
I would only add one thing. Why would anyone enlist in the future armed forces if all we are doing is running from our enemies?
AzRenegade
Are you serious?
by RandomGuy
I wish the Republicans would start to move away from their Iraq obsession, and try to pin Obama on these other issues: What about Iran? What about North Korea helping Syria to build nukes? What if another country, say Somalia or Yemen, becomes a base for al-Qaeda terrorists just like Afghanistan did?
It is because of this that we are REQUIRED to be obsessed with Iraq.
Without victory in Iraq, we will have very little credibility or leverage to use against any of these countries.
How to balance the need for domestic surveillance of terrorism against civil liberties?
Important if it becomes an issue. So far, I think that, with a little help from the Supreme Court (Hamdi, while a flawed decision, was essentially the right result), we're doing pretty good. If it becomes a problem down the road, deal with it. So far, all we have is pinhead leftist conspiracy theories, no real abuses.
What will you do with the terrorists of Gitmo after you close the place?
We shouldn't.
If we do, ship them back to camps in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Would your Attorney General ask the death penalty for Osama bin Laden after he's captured?
I seriously, seriously doubt that he'll be "captured" without a bullet in his head.
"I ain't never votin' fo another Democrat so long as I can draw breath! I'll vote for a dog first!" - Leola Thomas
I Would Like the Democrats
by Whitehorse
to move away from their Iraq obsession. The democrat leadership & Obama (as semi-somewhat kinda presumptive nominee) display an obsession with failure in Iraq, when we're in the process of winning.
He has been pulling a NAFTA on this one
by Joliphant
He talks withdrawl when he is with the people from Moveon that are giving him money. When he is not with them he talks about circumstances permitting.
The problem is like the NAFTA/Taxes/ETC issues he just doesn't lie that well. Not only does he not manage to hide the lie he leaves the impression that he lied to, to all sides at the same time.
So I am not sure where he stands on Iraq. The one thing I am sure about him is he has managed to set records for lack of integrity in a presidential campaign.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Waffle Outburst
by MikeO
Until the waffle outburst, I was sure that Senator Obama was not aware of the inept lying that is the basis of his campaign. Now, I'm no longer sure, but I still suspect.
I personally know two people in whom relativism runs so deeply that they can accept inconsistency uncritically, and I'm talking in reference to mundane things having nothing to do with politics. In my not professional opinion, they are crazy.
I started defining myself [to myself] as an anti-Marxist once I realized that this kind of crazy walks freely among us.
Yup.
by skey
And this is exactly why I voted for Hillary in the Texas primary. Not to sow dissention like so many, but because I believe this is a down year for Republicans, and we'd be far better off having a sane Democrat in the white house than an insane one.
Osama
by sdillard
Well, Osama should indeed get a bullet to the head eventually.
I'd rather see him paraded down Fifth Avenue in chains first.
This comment disturbed me for a moment
by Neil Stevens
I read 'Obama' and was wondering just what kind of moby you were, heh.
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What?
by Denny in Alaska
Sen. Obama (D-Titanic) will be forced to waffle on another major policy issue? At least on this issue he's got--what?--three, four, five sides that he can come down firmly on?
You libel walnuts, my friend nt
by Dan McLaughlin
"No compromise with the main purpose, no peace till victory, no pact with unrepentant wrong." - Winston Churchill
For Being Sooooo Smart
by Whitehorse
Obama really doesn't "get it" regarding Iraq, the entirety of the war against islamist jihad, & the repercussions of "just leaving" Iraq. We learned in grade-school how one should deal with bullies.
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Hillary, if elected, would be similar to Bill. She would allow the flow of the polls to dictate many of her actions. Her support of/opposition to/support of/opposition to the war makes it seem as though that would be especially true of Iraq.
The progress made in Iraq over the last year makes civil war seem less likely. I think Americans once again prefer stability in the region to surrender. Hillary, recognizing this, would try to minimize the effect of any troop withdrawal in order to take credit for whatever level of victory she and the media could trumpet.
Obama and the George Soros mind-numbed left want our troops out regardless of the consequences.