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What if Barack Obama’s Christianity is more Authentic than Mitt Romney’s? [Closed]

I don’t care if you’re “just asking” with that passive-aggressive hooey or whatever. I’ll close threads when I see them, and if people start repeating them I just might ban the offenders. This is a political website. Take your religious wars elsewhere. – NS

I’m just asking–

Religion, as it always does, will play a significant role in the 2012 Presidential election. It certainly did in 2008. This is perfectly reasonable: After all, man is a spiritual–divinely engineered– creature. We think and ponder of God because God put a yearning for Him in our DNA. Of course He would enter the political discourse.

On a more prosaic note, religious bearing will be significant in our politics (if for no other reason) because we are at war against the radical elements of one of the world’s most populous religions, and the responses of our leaders posed by this tremendous challenge are bound to be colored by their faith–, or lack thereof.

One look no further for proof of this than President Obama.

He is a professed Christian (-more on this in a moment) that has gone to great lengths to prove how little his Christianity actually binds to his decision-making process: For example, he seems perfectly fine ignoring the 139th Psalm on a nearly minute-by-minute basis. But, no matter; I take Mr. Obama at his word that he accepts the salvation that Jesus offered, and that he is genuinely humbled that the God of the Universe laid down His life so that Barack Obama might join Him in heaven as a new and perfected creature.

I’m not a theologian. I’m a conservative. And, if there is one thing that delineates the baseline of conservatism, it is our reverence for the foundational. We revere our traditions, our institutions, our founders and their historical narrative. This can be applied to our faith-lives, as well.

We hold our religious teachings and traditions, and their historical underpinnings, in utmost regard. There is a reason that Luke goes to great lengths at the beginning of his Gospel to trace the lineage of Jesus back to Adam, on through Abraham and David: People that love God love His plan, and marvel in the utter ingenuity of it all.

So, let’s examine the religious historical narrative of the two supposed front-runners in the 2012 Big Game: One a Mormon, the other an African Congregationalist. We could subtitle it “Jeremiah Wright vs. Joseph Smith”

JOSEPH SMITH

As an older teenager, Joseph Smith, pattering around his family home in Palmyra, New York, was a diviner, a treasure hunter, a finder of misplaced tools and such, and enjoyed the local repute of someone that could use his magic “peep stones” (-odd little stones with holes in them, fashioned into a sort of eye-glasses) to find lost possessions. He’d gone out on treasure-hunting expeditions with his father, convinced that the Spanish explorer DeSoto had buried his golden treasures in upstate New York (!), and that he and a squad of itinerant gold-diggers could find it with Smith’s magic seeing-stones.

The group dug and dug, but, of course, the treasure remained elusive. The men that had accompanied him in the dig were eventually convinced that Smith and his dad were humbugs, and were trying to relieve them of their money–; or, at least, their time.

The 1820′s and 1830′s was a wondrous period in America. Government in general was about as small as it ever would be in relationship to the exploding population. The slavery issue was finally engaged in serious moral terms, and was  being battled (mostly in print) as a Christian religious revival was sweeping the land. It was called the “Second Great Awakening”.

Churches were springing up in the 1820′s and 30′s like gas stations would spring up in the 1960′s. All manner of religious teaching was available to a public that had almost no forms of entertaining diversion much beyond the village Meeting House– especially on the prairie and lands “out west” (-which, in the early 1800′s meant Illinois, and western Kentucky and Tennessee). A firebranding, hell-raising preacher with a commodious tent and alluring posters made a fantastic Wednesday evening spectacle.

It was in this milieu that Seventh Day Adventism, Jehovah’s Witnesses “Watchtower”, Millerism, and Mary Baker Eddy’s Christian Science were birthed, and garnered impressive followings. It was time ripe for new thoughts on old-time religion.

Back in New York, Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by the Angel Moroni, who revealed to him the “Golden Plates” which were said to be inscribed with the proper version of the Scriptures in a language reported as “reformed Egyptian”. Smith said he was able to transcribe the plates using… well, a set of “peep stones” that the Angel conveniently also provided Mr. Smith.

After some time spent cloistered away with the plates and his peep stones (known now to Smith as the Urim and the Thummim– which have been described variously as “spectacles” of over-large size, or simple eye-glass style shades) Mr. Smith translated the plates into what today is known as the Book of Mormon. Not one Egyptologist has ever, then or now, heard or seen of “Reformed Egytptian”, and one such that was claimed by Smith to corroborate his story later said in a sworn deposition that Smith was lying.

Remember, the Golden Plates purported to be the true bible, free of translational errors committed over the centuries. Oddly, though, the Book of Mormon refers, at least tacitly or even explicitly about events that occurred oftentimes centuries after the last Revelation of John was written. It also contains little oddities, such as references to men that live on the Moon who look like Quakers.

But, no matter. Every religious text has its oddities. Leviticus, for example, reads more like the Federal Register than a faith-based tome. What is foundational in importance, though, is that Mormonism allows for the possibility of mortal men to become Gods unto themselves, and thus strip the sacrifice of Christ of its fundamental relationship to divine salvation: That is, that we are granted salvation by a loving, eternal graceful Lord irrespective of our works if we simply submit to the understanding that Jesus died for us, and invite him into our hearts and souls. For a Christian, this is the only path to salvation–even though, as the old Christian saw says, narrow is the gate.

Mormonism, as far as I can tell, (in a Willy Wonka sort-of-way) attempts to reestablish a bizzaro-world Levitican law based on a questionable, if not outright fraudulent religious tome. And thus, Mormonism is not Christian; it is, as Walter R. Martin so concisely lays out in his landmark book “Kingdom of the Cults”,–a cult.

Now, I do not in any way wish to cast negative light on the individual members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-Day Saints. All of them (and I do mean ALL of them) that I have known personally are outstanding human beings and citizens. They are probably the most productive Americans as a sub-demographic. They are loving, gentle, strong folks. They have beautiful families. Their church life should be emulated by others. But, this does not absolve the doctrinal mess that the Book of Mormon and it’s history reveals.

Yeah, well– if God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, wouldn’t it seem probable that Moroni brought Joe Smith golden plates with magic Peep Stones to read them? No, not really. First of all, the tablets that God Himself inscribed were held for centuries in the Arc of the Covenant, in the Holy of Holys and were seen by scores of rabbis through the generations. The Mosaic writings dovetail perfectly with actual known historical events, and the life of Christ fits into the writing of the Prophets like imprinted divine DNA. By contrast, Moroni brought Smith a library book (golden though it was), and it had to be returned when Moroni departed this mortal coil. There were a handful of Mormon Witnesses that claimed to have “spiritfully” or “faithfully” seen the Plates, but there are internal inconsistencies with their narratives, and some later recanted.

JEREMIAH WRIGHT

Jeremiah Wright and the Trinity United Church of Christ is a curious matter, too.

The roots of Trinity United go back into the very founding of this nation, to the Puritanical fathers, and, indeed, to the English reformation.

The Church had been roiling in foment for decades when the first separatist Pilgrims struck out for the new world, away from the religious persecution that the Anglicans and Catholics were igniting in England at the close of the Sixteenth Century.

These folks wanted to devoutly worship as their conscience dictated, but in a framework of communal and hierarchical method. It was really something quite new: No papacy, no crown, no ecumenical council was going to oversee their worship, or their lives. They would look after each other. Zealously.

After a time, naturally, some came to resent the austere and somewhat dictatorial rule of the likes of John Winthrop, and other Puritan Fathers who spoke of the “Shining City on a Hill”. There appeared, in the mid 1600′s, a sort of schism, where certain members of the Congregation thought that these self-same members ought to have more say in the religious and communal development. Soon, they split off and founded their own communities, becoming, at first “Congregationalists”, and, in the fullness of time, Connecticut.

Already, we are seeing the young shoots of “Yankee Independence”. Of course, there were many arguments about theology, and practice. Eventually, Maryland was settled by Catholic adherents. In a little under a century, the die was cast: Northern New England was of puritanical stock, New York and Connecticut were given to Lutheranism and Congregationalism, Maryland was Catholic, and the south was mostly free-wheeling Laissez-Faire.

In the words of Rodney King: Can’t we all just get along?

As I say, the America of the 1830′s was a spiritual brush-fire. Most of the kindling was provided by the tinder of slavery. Didn’t Christ admonish his followers to submit to earthly authority? Shouldn’t slaves submit to their masters? and so forth. It is really difficult, in 21st-century America to envision a land wholly given to Judeo-Christian theological argument and adherence as pastime: But it was. The wholesale butchery of a civil war, two bloodthirsty world wars, and a nuclear arms race would naturally diminish the thought that God was still working in the world. But, in the mid 1800′s, that was all in the future. In the meantime, America needed to deal with human slavery. Much of the arguments were fought in Church.

Clearly, when viewed as 1840s America, God was still working in the world, or at least some in the Congregational movement thought. Rather like Moroni’s chatter, it hadn’t all ended with John’s Revelation. The proof of this must be in the flow of popular thought vis-a-vis slavery and democratic institutions in general. God was still revealing His will to a fallen world. Thus, in stark contrast to the seeming unyielding rote ritual of Catholicism, or Lutheranism, the Congregationalists were creating a new church– one distinctly man-scented, but a new one nonetheless. One that at first investigated, and then became obsessed with, man’s earthly development– and became less enthused about his heavenly salvation.

Again, one senses, in the age before even telegraphy, much less radio or television, there was a simple entertainment quotient at work here. After all, going to the church meeting house is much easier when you leave feeling good about yourself, versus feeling bad — especially when you have to spend the better part of the day to simply get there, after feeding and watering the horses, hitching up the dray, trodding through mud-rutted corduroy roads in even the worst of weather.

As the nineteenth century moved apace, and the culture became more urbanized, man’s condition in his relationship to God and other men started to receive some grevious blows. Some of the basic moral tenants, which heretofore were taken for granted, were under sharp assault. First the Civil War, where mankind was first exposed to the utter brutality of mechanized slaughter, brought about a fundamental questioning about man’s ability (and his much-vaunted democratic government) to even act as a moral instrument. Perhaps all of the divisions in Christs’ Church was to blame. If we all believed in the same God (an allusion to which even Lincoln had spoken), why do we have so many different denominations? Why all the doctrinal arguments? A United Church might bring about a sense of healing.

So, slowly at first, and then, by the 1930′s a torrent of disparate Protestant denominations began folding into one another. Covenant Christian Pilgrims, African Baptist, New Zionists; an entire M&M bag of churches absorbed one another in a series of ecumenical congresses. What seemed to bind them was their embrace of earthly grievance: Reconstruction, poverty, workers rights. In a sort of reverse Big Bang, the Congregationalists were reconstituting themselves. Thus, by the 1950′s, the United Church of Christ was born.

Like the 1820′s, the 1950′s were a convulsive time for theology in America. In addition to the founding of the UCC, Elijah Mohammed and Wallace Fard were creating a witches brew of black nationalism and Islamic storytelling, folding them into what became known as the Nation of Islam, whose main feature was to insist on the superiority of black contributions in western advance. Full-throated Black Christian Activism was blossoming, most notably in the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, in the wake of the Montgomery Bus Boycott.

Oddly, young Jeremiah Alvesta Wright wasn’t terribly swept up in these passions. Both his Dad, a prominent Germantown, Pennsylvania pastor, and his mother, a successful school administrator, raised their son Jerry in an exquisitely (for the 1950′s) solidly middle-class environment. He joined the Marines, then the Navy, becoming a medical specialist. Wright even received a commendation from Admiral George Burkley, JFK’s attending physician, for Wright’s later medical service provided to LBJ during one of his heart episodes.

Eventually, Wright felt the calling that had attracted his father, and he received his Master of Divinity degree in 1968. He was hired by Trinity United Church of Christ in 1972. He grew his ministry from some 90 worshippers to over 6000 by the early 1990′s. He did this, in part, by borrowing a page from Elijah Mohammed, and his predecessors at Trinity, insisting on the centrality of “Blackness” as a touchstone to personal growth in Christ. A bit odd when viewed from the outside, no doubt, but even Saul, later Paul, tailored some of his sermons to fit the local crowds.

I am not in any way comparing Jeremiah Wright to St. Paul. Clearly, Wright’s virulently Anti-American screeds, and his thinly veiled anti-Semitism are repellent. But, at least as far as Trinity goes, he attempted to tie the loose ends back to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and His eternal divinity. Joseph Smith, on the other hand, rather dismisses it.

And in this is the primary reason most Evangelicals, the most dynamic and motivated voter block in the Republican party, will not –I repeat will NOT– campaign or support Mitt Romney with much enthusiasm. And, if there is one required ingredient in the 2012 crushing defeat of Barack Obama, it is voter enthusiasm for his opponent, whoever he or she might be.

To the slinky-spined Chris Christy and Mitch Daniels types, this will seem a confounding bit of antique superstition. But, to Evangelical Christians, it is foundational.

Conservatives rightly revere the writings of our Founders. They are thoroughly taken with their ingenuity, their patriotic fervor. They take with utmost seriousness our Founder’s original intent, even inveighing future jurists to divine it whenever possible, however possible. Such reverence ought to flow toward the foundational rebar of their religious beliefs, as well, if consistency in world-view is considered important. The foundations of Jeremiah Wright’s, and Barack Obama’s church is also the foundation of John Winthrop’s. The foundation of Mitt Romney’s is sadly in a young 19th century New York con-man.

In a odd way, one of the few earnest utterings I’ve heard emanate from Barack Obama was a brief bit from an interview on the radio, in which he said,

…I think also understanding that Jesus Christ dying for my sins spoke to the humility we all have to have as human beings, that we’re sinful and we’re flawed and we make mistakes, and that we achieve salvation through the grace of God. But what we can do, as flawed as we are, is still see God in other people and do our best to help them find their own grace. That’s what I strive to do. That’s what I pray to do every day. I think my public service is part of that effort to express my Christian faith.

As I say, I don’t see a lot of Christian fruit in Barack Obama to back up these words. But, that’s between God and Barack Obama. These words are not John Winthrop, by a long shot.

But, it’s not seeing the world through Rose Colored Peep Stones, either.

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COMMENTS

  • Ann_W

    not because of his religion. If candidates had to pass a test for their religion allowing them to be a good candidate LDS candidates would do well as a general rule, certainly as well as the Mike Huckabee’s of the world.

    You have (intentional or not) included some lies and half-truths here. The Golden Plates were not translated as the Bible or to replace the Bible or even be the “proper version of the Scriptures”. Also, there are no “little oddities, such as references to men that live on the Moon who look like Quakers”. You should probably verify things that you are told before you repeat them. The half-truths and doctrine that you wove in would take much more space and time to talk about than is available on a POLITICAL website. I would happily discuss those things with you in personal e-mails or on a religious website.

    If you are saying that no Mormon is qualified to be president, then I guess that’s a discussion you are entitled to bring up on a POLITICAL website. However, trying to start an inaccurate detailed religious debate is not appropriate for this site, so knock it off.

    • Ann_W

      And I would defy you to go to the LDS meetings that I have gone to or talk to the LDS friends and family that I have without realizing that we are Christian. We pray to the same God you do and everyday are grateful that Christ is our Savior and spend our whole lives trying to demonstrate that gratitude.

      • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

        You want to have this argument, have it elsewhere.

        Personally, I don’t care if a candidate is a Wiccan and wants to call himself a Christian. Or a Buddhist.

        As far as his qualifications are concerned, his “executive” experience sucks. He was good in a public company where he got to say “jump” and others got to say “how hi, SIR”. When he moved to government and discovered that he could say “jump” and people just laughed at him. He dealt with that turn of the screw very poorly.

        And then there’s the “vision” thingy. Romney’s problem is that he looks at the organization chart and worries about how to make it more efficient. How to deliver more services. How to increase “market share”. That’s fine if he wants to run Chrysler. It’s not fine if he wants to run the government because what we need now is someone who looks at the org chart and says, “Hmmm, see that box that says US Department of Education? Shut it down. Don’t replace the services and don’t rehire any of the worthless scum who’ve been sucking the life out of Education for 30+ years.”

        That President would then have to put together a team to do the task. Romney is not up to the task.

        • Ann_W

          So this should be a reply to him, not to me.

      • powertothepeople

        on a site not intended to be religious, but the LDS “faith” is not a part of the Christian faith. Roads may cross, but they are not the same. And I am quite familiar with the Latter Day Saints as my first wife was a life time member till her conversion. That being said:

        Your founder and subsequent leader did teach men lived on the moon. In fact, Brigham Young taught they lived on the sun as well. Joseph Smith claimed all his “revelations and teachings’ were from direct revelation from God. So since he said it, your faith teaches God gave him his words (as well as Brigham Young), it is a part of your faith and it must be believed by all of you or your faith breaks down because if he was a direct messenger of God, then God lied to him or he lied. I doubt it was God. In their own words:

        Joseph Smith as transcribed by Oliver B. Huntington published in the LDS paper Young Womens Journal 1892.

        “In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.” (The Young Woman’s Journal, published by the Young Ladies’ Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, vol. 3, pp. 263-64)

        Oliver B. Huntington’s testimony as to the beliefs of Joseph and his teachings:

        “Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.

        “As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do — that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years.

        “He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.

        The words of Brigham Young

        “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?…when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)

        Regardless of all that, most here have enough decency to not judge a man by his faith or lack of faith. While there are exceptions to the “who cares what his faith is” most here judge the person on who he or she is and their proven track record. In that aspect, Romney fails in many of our eyes and passes in others. Religion will not be the deciding factor for most.

        I am a staunch Christian, and while I would like the same to be the president, I am more concerned that they are honest, have integrity, and are absolute conservatives. Most here would agree with my last line.

        • Ann_W

          If you would like my e-mail address to discuss this further, I would love to get into these types of issues with you, however, this is not the time or place. Also, not very smart LDS are some of the brightest, most patriotic conservatives you will know and to try to peel them off the coalition is not a good idea.

          • Ann_W

            Since birth I’ve learned about Christ being my Savior. I’ve been taught that a person’s salvation is only because of his grace. Our church is even called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. So it’s ridiculous that you think you can define that away because you have decided that my beliefs are not acceptable. Ultimately, God will be the judge of that, not you.

          • powertothepeople

            take your heart off your sleeve.

            A) I def did not attempt to remove Mormons from the coalition, in fact, I clearly state that I and most others will judge the person not on faith but on the honesty, integrity, and proven conservatism. You are angry with the post and are not taking the time to read it. Slow down, lose the “hurt” and read please.

            B) That was not that long of a post and most of it was simple copy and paste. But it is relevant to what you claimed about the authors post. SO I must assume either you know little about your own faith, did not want it exposed, or do not believe even your own church’s writings on the matter. Again, I could care less if a person believes they came from Zenu and that all the rest of mankind came from Pluto, I care about how they govern.

            C) The title on your church door does not mean a thing. Nor does it for any other church.Waco’s David called himself Jesus. What matters is doctrine and it is our place to hold the doctrine accountable since God commands it in the Bible.

            I, and most others, do not care that Romney is a Mormon. That is not our main concern. We care about how Romney has governed and that is what I do not like about him.

    • conservativecurmudgeon

      Very clearly, the man is eminently qualified. However, I am positing that evangelical Christians will not enthusiastically support him, mainly for the reasons I think I have outlined well and accurately enough.

      Like all research, I stand by what I have seen and read. I will also say that I have not seen and read EVERYTHING on the subject.
      The Mormon leadership, to this day, holds to the rightness of the Bible “insofar as it is properly translated and understood”. As I have gone to great lengths to establish, I am impugning no one in the Church of the Later Day Saints. I am simply explaining why evangelicals may tend to give Mitt Romney only tepid support.. Which is very applicable to a POLITICAL website.

      • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

        And an excellent argument, which I am not going to make here, can be made that Romney is one of the least qualified potential candidates.

        • conservativecurmudgeon

          And I especially appreciate your insightful responses.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            No love lost on this issue. You have openly presented yourself to be a bigoted, ignorant fool. There are probably two dozen people on this site who actually understand the theological issues involved and I happen to be one of them. You aren’t.

          • conservativecurmudgeon

            Or simply to spiteful name-calling?

            My point here is to present a question, and to open what many consider to be a fundamental issue: The religious viewpoint of two leading candidates for the presidency. As I said, I am not a theologian. I am an observant, listening Conservative. To my knowledge, I’ve said nothing bigoted (one poster, in fact, said I was casting aspersions on Catholics and Jews, which is interesting in that paternally and maternally, I am both). I don’t think I’ve written anything bigoted, either. I do know I’ve expressed opinions and laid out a case that many may seem to be uncomfortable and perhaps controversial, but, aren’t beyond the thought pathways of many who give thoughtful consideration to the issue.

            You imply that you are a theological expert. I, for one, would benefit from whatever thoughtful analysis you can give to the issue. But, I think I’ve laid out the reason why Evangelicals won’t support Romney with great enthusiasm, and why, vis-a-vis Obama, it might make a critical difference. They may stay home or sit on their hands to a degree, one that could make or break the campaign.

            Can you honestly assert that the religious viewpoints of candidates DON’T redound to their ultimate success (or lack thereof) in an election?

          • 6eorge Jetson

            in government run healthcare.

            Aside from technicalities, I don’t know how a conservative can reconcile his or her opposition to ObamaCare with support for a Romney Presidential Run.

            Unless he comes out and flat out states, “I was a moron to champion RomneyCare and to let the dynamics of govt run healthcare out of Pandora’s Box.”

            Even so, that wouldn’t make for an inspiring candidate, would it?

          • conservativecurmudgeon

            Well said…

      • Ann_W

        It would be just as applicable here.

        • conservativecurmudgeon

          And that wasn’t my point. As I said, I know and personally love Mormons (just as I know and love many other folks, whose faith is a complete mystery to me)– ALL of them that I have known personally are magnificent human beings. Furthermore, when Richard Headlee ran for Governor of Michigan (he was and LDS member), I supported him with great vigor.

          The question I am posing isn’t a throw away: Many evangelicals won’t support Romney with the excitement that I believe George Bush proved was critical in 2004. And the reason is, in part (but only in part) because of the historical nature of his faith. And, it’s an aspect that won’t go away simply because to discuss it labels you a bigot (which, by the way, I will point out is bigoted)

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    This is every bit as pertinent as BOs birth certificate.

    • conservativecurmudgeon

      And why are we so touchy about this? To dismiss the basis of faith on the condition of Mankind is to dismiss the Declaration of Independence itself. In fact, at their core, our Founding Documents are spiritual treatises.

      Have we gone so far down the road of post-Modernism that we can’t DISCUSS religion, and how religion informs our public discourse? Good grief, I hope not.

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        I’m currently conferring with management on whether to allow diaries like this at all.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          put me in the instant death column. These things turned absolutely toxic every time the subject came up in 08. They add absolutely nothing to argument about candidate quality and, like this one, they are usually written by ignorant fools who have no experience in hermeneutics and absolutely no academic historical perspective.

          These diaries make the Paulines look sane.

          • aesthete

            chalk me up as a non-fan of these diaries, as well. They add nothing to the site, and encourage division along religious lines in ways that have nothing to do with politics. As tiresome as the libertarian/SoCon debates, or the 2012 discussions can be, they at least have something to do with current events and politics.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            Theologically it’s hard to deny that the LDS church has marked differences from the bulk of Christianity. I’m not taking a position on that, and don’t grudge people who have strong opinions on that. I wouldn’t compare them with Ronulans, who are dangerously ignorant, ridiculously arrogant, incredibly ineffective, and just flat wrong.

            But this is a political site that caters to conservatives and Republicans. Not conservatives and Republicans of specific creeds. RedState is accepting of a broad range of beliefs, as long as you fit in with a broad-based conservative Republicans.

            And particularly in the west, Mormons are an important part of the coalition. If we spend the next year letting the diaries turn into Joseph Smith five minutes of hate every day, then that’s abysmally bad politics with no actual benefit politically.

            If people want to debate whether Mormons are Christians, there are sites for that. This isn’t it.

          • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

            My only point of disagreement would be that “most” of the commenters in this type of diary make the same quality arguments as the Ronulans because they are just as ignorant.

            And RS doesn’t need to devolve into pissing contests over theological debates that have no place in politics, let alone a political site.

            Thanks for working to head this off.

          • aesthete

            though I also wonder how this would shake out for diaries on Islam, which tend to be at least as ill-informed as this one. It doesn’t seem practical or good for the site to dismiss the subject out of hand; far too related to national security and other political issues. Nonetheless, it is irritating to see those discussions become a breeding ground for speculation and mis-information.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            Not touching that threadjack here though. :)

          • conservativecurmudgeon

            But, the nature of a person’s faith is the 800 pound guerrilla in the room, and has been since the dawn of the Republic. People take cues from the totality of evidence regarding a candidate, and faith is one of them. It DOES add and detract to the viability of a candidate (just look at the references to Obama baptizing his daughters at Trinity United). To assert that it is a meaningless as the Birth Certificate issue (as one here as done) seems startlingly thoughtless, and perhaps skittish of where the discussion might lead.

            I wasn’t debating the “Mormons aren’t Christians” mileau. Ultimately, only God makes that final judgement, not some guy sitting in his pajamas in his living room. I WAS very much bringing to the fore what the issue means, and why it means it, to a thoroughgoing block of evangelicals Christians, and why it might matter.

            Thank you VERY MUCH for your introspection here. I’ve meant not to offend; to provoke, maybe.

      • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

        This is a political site. We discuss political qualifications for office and we discuss issues. Religion is not an issue.

        If you can’t come up with an experiential, an issue related or a politically related communication issue (as in polling) then you’ve got nothing what so ever to contribute.

        Since I was here for the last POTUS primary season, I can guarantee you that crap like this will devolve faster than a “RonPaul is the Messiah” diary. The other guarantee I can give you, having been through these stupid wars, is that you don’t actually know squat about arguments for and against LDS. You want to pick that fight and you’ll get rightfully shredded from both sides.

      • aesthete

        I like you ‘mudgeon, but you’re just wrong here. And the problem with these diaries and a general discussion of religion on a political site is that extrapolating from orthodox thinking of a religion will not necessarily yield a better understanding of a person’s mindset. A diary outlining how Romney, in specific, interprets his religion with evidence backing up your claims, and then applying this to how he views his politics is apropos; a general discussion of foundational tenets of a religion is not.

        • conservativecurmudgeon

          Mom was right: Never discuss religion. Which is unfortunate, because it is one of the areas in which people have VERY strong opinions, and we never learn to discuss them artfully. We just screech, run for the closets, and shut them tight.

          But, as I am very respectful of you as well, M. Aesthete, I want to know how you square the circle about the clear allusions to Natural Law, Nature’s God, and the Creator, and so on, in our founding documents. I think they are clearly based on a faith in a single, loving, creating God.

          Obviously, the founders steadfastly stayed away from discussions of creed and denomination (primarily because many of the states were already devolving into religious enclaves, to one degree or another). But, I want to know more about your assertion.

          As for Romney’s specific religious interpretations: They aren’t germane to my point, which is, that many Evangelicals won’t ENTHUSIASTICALLY support him, without regard to what his specific theology may be. I don’t think this is particularly shocking, either. I just IS. They will obviously support a Romney candidacy over Obama, but, the enthusiasm gap will be felt, and I think I’ve outlined well enough why that might be.

  • silentcal2012

    “In fact, at their core, our Founding Documents are spiritual treatises.”

    But they were not denominational. They avoided denominational discussions on purpose. They knew it was poison. This is poison.

    You do realize that Glenn Beck is a Mormon. You do realize that Mormons are conservative, millions upon millions give their money, labor and votes to the GOP. You want all of their support, while you trash them?

    You do know that your post had two backhanded insults towards Catholics. You also understand that this is offensive to Jews. This is exactly the type of post that tarnishes the “social conservative” label.

    • conservativecurmudgeon

      As I said in an earlier reply, my Mom is a Jew and my Dad is a Catholic. I was raised in the Catholic Church. My Grandfather, an Ashkenazi Jew was one of the most faithful, loving men I have ever known. None of which is terribly important, especially in regard to this Diary. I am simply trying to point out why it might be that Evangelicals won’t be doing hand-springs over a Romney nomination. They will support him, of course, over the candidacy of Barack Obama. But the enthusiasm gap will be felt.

      I didn’t know Glenn Beck was a Mormon. I don’t really care much, either. He isn’t asking for the votes of millions of Americans that will judge him on a wide variety of facets, his religion included.

      I vigorously supported Richard Headlee when he ran for Governor of Michigan in 1982. He was a great, great man, and he was a Mormon. So what? I am simply pointing out the totality of what goes into adjudging a person’s viability for President, and what ingredients go into this judgment.

      And, if I’ve tarnished anything, that was not my intent. If we cannot discuss something as foundational as religious history, then we have a bigger problem than one simple diary entry.

  • aesthete

    and (whether by design or inattention) encourages non-political and coalition-destroying discussion of the sort that you can see above. I will say that as a mainline Pentecostal/charismatic Christian, I share the views of evangelicals that LDS are not orthodox Christians. I also understand that many mainline Christians see the doctrines propagated by my branch of Christianity as heretical. I am not here to debate the merits of my Christianity or to convert non-believers: I am on RS to discuss and further politics with like-minded people who generally believe in property rights, civil and negative rights, rule of law, and a strong defense of both. Whatever else you can say about LDS members, they certainly qualify as allies in that fight (exempting some like Harry Reid).

    BTW, the cheap shot at Chris Christie and Mitch Daniels was unwarranted, methinks. I know next to nothing about Christie (and thus will not comment on his Christianity or lack thereof), but Daniels and his life bear witness to his Christianity, as do his public statements. There are plenty of pols who I don’t like, but I don’t think that impugning their commitment to Christ is particularly appropriate (Rick Santorum and Huckabee, for instance). Do you have anything to back up those slams?

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      political issues, not theological issues.

      As a pentecostal American Baptist, if I need to debate the number of angels on the head of any given pin, all I have to do is go to church.

      Politically, I’d vote for an atheist had a plan to cut a couple of trillion out of the budget and shut down a multitude of Cabinet level departments. And I’d shout “Hallelujah!!” when I cast the vote.

  • avgjo

    if you make strong comments like asserting the Constitution and DOI as spiritual treatises, you might want to go into some depth into why you believe that’s the case, citing specific historical, philosophical and political matters you believe back your assertion.

    I totally believe that this country was founded on principles which arose from a strong, fairly narrow range of religious (read: Christian) and classical philosophical principles. I have read enough of the Founders AND the documents they read AND the documents the authors of THOSE documents read, to know that the Founders understood the need for homonoia in a culture, which must be at least partly constituted by spiritual community and religious values. (This is not to say that I believe one must be a Christian to be an excellent conservative or a very moral person. As a Christian, it shames me that 2 fellas I consider dear friends, both atheists, live lives that would put most Christians I know to shame. Both are also brilliant conservatives.). But these are matters of political philosophy, and so folks wanting to discuss such things must proceed carefully, reasonably and in a proper place. I myself have wanted to write a series of diaries here, along the lines of political philosophy and or theory, but I have not been sure if this is the right place to do so. That’s why I’ve held off. After having read many of the comments above, I’m rather thankful I held off.

    Thanks for a well-intended effort, though.

    • conservativecurmudgeon

      But, doesn’t a person’s faith life inform the narrowly political? Clearly it does, especially at a time in our national narrative where we find ourselves embroiled in wars that have a religious component, whether we wish they did, or no.

      And, as I’ve said for the about the dozenth time, none of this was my point. My point was that many will make a judgement about a candidate based on the historical nature of that person’s religion, and how will that help, or hurt, a candidate.

      “What if” as I’ve posed it won’t be shrugged off, even if we are desirous that it be so.

      • avgjo

        And I didn’t miss what you were saying. But you know as well as I that often an ancillary comment becomes THE conversation. And that’s what I was referring to. And I want to be clear, I wasn’t questioning the legitimacy of what you are doing. That last comment is absolutely on mark.

        A professor of mine, one of the few for whom I have a large degree of respect, tells a story of the recently-pass sociologist, Daniel Bell. When Bell turned 13, he had his bar mitzvah and ran off to see his rabbi, to tell him that now that he was all growed up, he didn’t believe in God anymore. The Rabbi, without missing a beat, asked Bell, ‘And why do you suppose God cares what you think?’

        This little story reminds me of your comment. The reality is the reality, whether we accept it or not. And I don’t argue that point with you.

        I have wrapped up my first degree in political theory, and my specialty was Anglo-American constitutionalism. That’s why I agree with the spirit of what you said – everything . Whether or not the Constitution invokes God or religion (which I know it doesn’t – the background for it was understood to be the DOI, which DOES invoke God, and by association, religion) has nothing to do with the context in which that document was put together, and with the men who put it together. The context was clearly a Christian one, even in the case of the Deists and ( I believe) atheists like Paine. They were part of a culture that had been formed by the Judaeo-Christian values of the Bible, and whatever their creed, they couldn’t escape that. If we read the Founders’ writings, there is a clear understanding that religious values were essential to a free society. Now, those have been diluted, our political discourse has undergone a degree of reductionism and we’re eating the fruit of it. Look at our entire political discussion. It is all centered around materialism. The left wants to ‘redistribute wealth’ in the name of fairness. The right wants to prevent that in the name of ‘economic freedom’. A good case in point: the planned parenthood. Orrin Hatch, many commentators here and elsewhere, and I’m sure many other politicians, framed the issue of pp funding primarily in terms of ‘we can’t afford it’, not in terms of right and wrong, life and death. Certainly, there are notable exceptions, but this is rather typical, I’m afraid. And I fear that unless there is great spiritual revival in our land, we are finished as a country.

        • avgjo

          ‘and that’s why I agree with you – everything I read/studied and learned informed this idea that a person’s religious and moral views affect their politics.

  • Thomas Crown

    That wasn’t a great year. Maybe we don’t repeat it?

  • acat

    They were crap then, they’re crap now. There’s plenty to criticize Romney about without bringing his choice of religion into it, just as there’s plenty to criticize Obama about without asserting that he’s a crypto-muslim.

    Mew

    • conservativecurmudgeon

      I am attempting (perhaps poorly, who knows?) to bring to the fore why Mitt, if he wins the nomination, won’t have enthusiastic support from Evangelical Christians, and why, from an historical standpoint, it might matter.

      I don’t particularly care, I might add, about Mr. Romney’s religion: I am a Born Again-type, and I know I fall (very, very, very!) far short of the Glory of God in respect to how I ought to live out my faith. Pace Paul, I do what I hate to do, even thought I know I hate it. I know this about myself, and I understand, therefore, it might be true of Mitt Romney, as well: His religion is his religion, and he no doubt tries his best, as I do. Otherwise, we live our lives, considering our religions at whiles.

      But, that many who take these things seriously might look at the historical roots of Mormonism and conclude it doesn’t comport with their world-view is of paramount importance to how many votes such a person might get, don’t you think? To simply imply that such things are of no consequence ignores the vast history of the Republic. And, we ignore it at our possible peril.

      It is interesting that no one has commented here on the religiosity of Obama, which I also went to great lengths to discuss. However, everyone seems to have jumped into the fray regarding Mormonism. Our political/religious radars aren’t as acute as we might think.

      Bark.