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Nobody Knows Nothing

We Go On To The Finish, The Odds Long, The Path Unlit

If you go here, here, here, here, here, and here, you can pretty much cover the landscape of arguments for why the polls simply can’t be trusted this year.

I’m not in the group that says McCain is secretly winning and the polls are a gigantic false-flag psy-ops program designed to discourage GOP turnout. We know, after all, that whatever the biases of various people and institutions involved, the final polls in 2004, properly understood, were highly accurate, and the 2006 polls were mostly so as well (2002, less so). Neither am I in the group that attributes potential poll inaccuracy entirely to Obama’s race – while that may well be a factor, I think there are fair arguments that run deeper to polling methodology, and I also think Obama’s inexperience, the absence of a candidate from the incumbent administration, the massive new-voter operation by the Obama camp, the Palin wildcard (this has to be the first time ever that a VP pick drew nearly the same convention speech audience as the POTUS nominees and the VP debate outdrew the POTUS debates, and now she’s delivered the biggest ratings for SNL in 14 years) and the sudden, late external shock of the credit crisis are all reasons why public sentiment may be more volatile and harder to get a fix on than usual.

Polls are not votes. They are evidence. The likely answer from the evidence we have remains that McCain is losing and likely to lose; I’m not going to cocoon myself or anyone else from that (there’s a reason why candidates who say “the only poll that matters is the one on Election Day” usually end Election Day with a concession speech). But there is more than enough uncertainty out there that I endorse wholeheartedly the view that the last thing Republicans and other McCain supporters should do is get discouraged and throw in the towel before every stop is pulled out to win this thing. You gotta be in it to win it.

UPDATE: Geraghty notes here and here the panicked frenzy of attacks he gets from the Left whenever he suggests that some polls are showing a closer race than the conventional wisdom (or the bulk of polls, for that matter). I chalk this up partly to the Online Left’s longstanding view that the winner of any argument is the person who can demonstrate the greatest degree of anger, but it’s certainly a curious phenomenon coming from people who would seem to have every reason to be confident and no particular reason to take time from their day getting angry at a conservative pundit for showing a glimmer of optimism. Unless you do buy into the view that such people really are banking very heavily on a demoralized opposition.

SECOND UPDATE: It appears that the AP poll showing Obama up only by one has a 4-point advantage for the Democrats in the party-ID breakdown. For anybody who has followed the polls this year, that’s the single biggest question: when you factor in GOTV and whether the likely-voter screens and all have or have not accurately predicted who will vote, will the party ID numbers look like 2006, when a terrible climate for Republicans still produced just a 3-point advantage in party ID for Democrats in the exit polls? Or will it be more like a double-digit advantage in party ID, figures we have not seen since the 1970s? Note that the Geraghty posts I linked to up top show very few examples of dramatic changes in party ID year to year. Even in Jay Cost’s chart of registered voter ID, the biggest swings are about 7 or 8 points in some years, 1984 and 1994 for the GOP and 1996 for the Democrats. It may well be that 2008 really will show a historic realignment away from the position the GOP held in 2006 (which was already awful, the worst Republican year in a decade), but just bear in mind that it has to be for the bulk of this year’s polls to be accurate.

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COMMENTS

  • pwest

    Turn out!

    We have to buck it up and Turn out!

    • westcoasttexan

      I think that everything this election will come down to voter turnout. I think that all the media fascination with the increase in Democrat registrations is meaningless. There has also been significant increase in Republican registrations, and as those people are historically more likely to actually go to the polls, I think Republicans have the ability to pull this out. Early voting just started in Texas and my mom said that lines were out the door on the first day!

  • pwest

    AP just released a new poll, saying it is tied.

    AP is a liberal group! As PA points out, if they say it’s tied, then McCain is ahead!

  • nivlem

    I finally got disgusted enough to do it. I almost did it when on 9/11 they didn’t put anything on the front page about the attack on America.

    Then they placed an editorial from an editorialist from Atlanta that was so low and degrading to Sarah Palin, it was the last straw. I cancelled it after receiving the paper for decades.

    Same old, same old thing about the media,
    but I had just had it with them. I refuse to give them anymore of my money.

    • Common_Cents

      Play to the whistle! Only pansies give up. We’ll have plenty of time to whine if we lose. Now is not the time.

      • pwest

        Why would we even give up without even voting? Why did the Giants even bother to show up last January or whenever the Super Bowl was?

        Patrick Henry didn’t say, “Give me Liberty unless the British intend to kill me, then I don’t want Liberty; I’d much rather stay oppressed.”

        Boy that speech right there would have fired me up; you know what I’m saying!

        TURN OUT! TURN OUT! TURN OUT!

        • Dan_McLaughlin

          nt

  • Spartan4Life

    Markets are forward looking. Don’t think for a minute that markets haven’t been pricing in an Obama victory for several months. Nobody has been predicting McCain victory, have they?

    This guy has destroyed trillions of dollars of wealth around the world and he hasn’t even been elected yet. Thanks, Barry.

    • pwest

      http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93VM4PO0&show_article=1

      Copy this and paste it into a new broswer. I can’t get the link thing to work!

      • eburke

        n/t

        • CSUFBomb

          1) The Common-Sense Vote – Until proven otherwise, I’m bitterly clinging to the hope that voters who are skeptical of pie-in-the-sky promises are still in the majority. Obama’s utopia of funding candy-coated government freebies for 95% on the backs of the other 5% is a fairy tale of epic proportions. Emperor Obama has no clothes.

          2) The Contrarian Vote – The more the MSM overestimates its self-importance, the more people will turn out to prove them wrong. Obama is inaugurated anew every night on television by a pack of sycophantic talking heads, and voters are now faced with the reality of what their vote would mean for the next four years.

  • horaceox

    Thanks for the link. I think you’re overstating pollings’ historical accuracy. I agree that the conspiracy theories about question wording and poll locations, etc. are wrong. But consider this:

    In 2006, Republicans lost the popular vote for Congress by 7 points. Of the 75 polls taken in September, October, and November, exactly 8 had their margin at 7 or less. The final RCP average was 10 points. MOE alone doesn’t explain this, since the error margins of properly taken samples should be evenly distributed around the true value (which is the real value of polling averages). The polls just missed something in the electorate.

    In 2004, President Bush did about a point better than most polls suggested he would do. The state polling was more of a mixed bag; RCP had Bush up only .6 in FL (and this was inflated by an outlying Q poll showing Bush up 8), up only 4.2 in MO, up only 8.5 in WV, and also up .9 in HI. There were some states that were spot-on and there were some more states where Kerry overperformed, but the point is that polling is sometimes waaaay off.

    Hardly anyone foresaw the 2004 Republicans getting to 55 Senate seats. Witness, for example, Lisa Murkowski winning despite trailing in every poll taken that year save for one (a Republican poll taken toward the end). Castor was up .5 in the Florida generic ballot. Most polling had Bunning up by double digits. Two polls had Vitter reaching 47%, none had him at 50. Coburn was supposed to win by only 6. Republicans overperformed the generic congressional ballot, which showed a tie. Only seven polls all year showed them winning the generic vote.

    In 2002, the final RCP averages showed the following:
    Strickland up 1.
    Cleland up 2.
    Mondale up 2.
    Thune up 2.

    Other states turned in more accurate results, but still, these are some fairly big “oops.”

    In 2000, Gore substantially outperformed the polls. Democrats outperformed the Senate ballot. (Though note now-Senator Nelson almost blew a double-digit lead).

    I’m going off memory here, but in 1996, Republicans outperformed the Senate ballot. Dole did outperform the polls. (This time Senator Nelson did blow a double-digit lead).

    So I wouldn’t be that surprised if the polls were wrong this time. This is especially true in a year like this one, when most people are just guessing what the electorate will look like.

    • PaRep
      • pwest

        can you get in touch with Moe, there is a troll over at the diary I posted, and I can’t have a legit debate with a Libertarian over there.

        See if you can get Moe to get rid of him, so I can honestly debate anyone who wants a debate!

        • janis

          They usually get it.

          • PaRep

            .

          • pwest

            I owe you one!

  • Tamblin

    Polls are not votes. They are evidence. The likely answer from the evidence we have remains that McCain is losing and likely to lose; I’m not going to cocoon myself or anyone else from that (there’s a reason why candidates who say “the only poll that matters is the one on Election Day” usually end Election Day with a concession speech). But there is more than enough uncertainty out there that I endorse wholeheartedly the view that the last thing Republicans and other McCain supporters should do is get discouraged and throw in the towel before every stop is pulled out to win this thing. You gotta be in it to win it.

    Certainly true. If you look at the 538 simulations right now they give McCain about a 7% chance right now. Intrade gives him about a 14% chance last I checked. That means even in the worst case if the vote were held today (and it isn’t other than some early voting) McCain would still win more than 1 time in 20. Not great odds, no, but hardly impossible, and far far better than any lottery you might play.

    It’s perfectly valid to say (as you have) the evidence points to my side being behind, we’ll have to work extra hard to win. What bothers me are the people who insist, no matter what, that te evidence must be wrong and McCain is really ahead. That’s disturbing because it reflects a mindset not of helthy skepticism but of closed minded immunity to reason.

    So kudos to you for being both intellectually honest and also being willing to fight (metaphorically) for the outcome you think is best.

    • RestonCon

      The N&O is the Raleigh (NC) News and Observer

      • MD_Vet

        I live in a hopelessly blue state, Maryland. In the past several elections there has been quite a lot of yard signs and bumper stickers evident at this stage in the election.

        This time…not so. I see very few bumper stickers as I drive around and even fewer yard signs. I drove around yesterday in several communities looking for signs, and only found a few.

        The dems around here usually can’t wait to show their support for their candidates…. wonder what’s going on!!!

        How about the rest of you folks…notice anything different this time around?

        • Moe_Lane

          I’m starting to seriously wonder just how big turnout is actually going to be this year. It simply doesn’t feel like people are anxious to go out and vote.

  • septembergurl

    effect, internals show McCain:

    Posted big gains among likely voters earning under $50,000 a year; he now trails Obama by just 4 percentage points compared with 26 earlier.

    -Surged among rural voters; he has an 18-point advantage, up from 4.

    -Doubled his advantage among whites who haven’t finished college and now leads by 20 points. McCain and Obama are running about even among white college graduates, no change from earlier.

    -Made modest gains among whites of both genders, now leading by 22 points among white men and by 7 among white women.

    -Improved slightly among whites who are married, now with a 24-point lead.

    -Narrowed a gap among unmarried whites, though he still trails by 8 points.

    In other words, the votes mcCain needs, blue-collar, rural, small business, are starting to turn to him. This is already paying dividends in Ohio and will be crucial to winning Pennsylvania.

    • mbecker908

      And that would be Democrats who tell pollsters they will be voting for BO when, in their hard cold hearts, they know they won’t be voting for him.

  • Pentagon16

    There’s That ‘McCain Pulls Even’ Poll

    Obi Wan, yesterday:

    “Believe me, there is someone in the Obama campaign who is deathly afraid of the ‘McCain pulls even or goes ahead’ poll.”

    Obi Wan had said that he felt the last debate had gone well for McCain, with “Joe the Plumber” finally illustrating the economic differences between the candidates, and illustrating that Obama would try to tax and spend his way out of a recession…

    AP, not too long ago:

    The presidential race tightened after the final debate, with John McCain gaining among whites and people earning less than $50,000, according to an Associated Press-GfK poll that shows McCain and Barack Obama essentially running even among likely voters in the election homestretch.

    The poll, which found Obama at 44 percent and McCain at 43 percent, supports what some Republicans and Democrats privately have said in recent days: that the race narrowed after the third debate as GOP-leaning voters drifted home to their party and McCain’s “Joe the plumber” analogy struck a chord.

    Three weeks ago, an AP-GfK survey found that Obama had surged to a seven-point lead over McCain, lifted by voters who thought the Democrat was better suited to lead the nation through its sudden economic crisis.

    • Pentagon16

      no doubt that there are MANY fewer Obama signs than Kerry signs in 04 here in Montgomery County Maryland.

      however, that may be because there is no push by the campaign to use yard signs. Or that they are so confident. Still it is strange when everywhere you turned in 04 there was Kerry/Edwards signs on fences and yards and cars..

      • jenest2001

        At the early polling places here in Wake Cty, (Raleigh) NC.

        Did the $800,000 from BO help ACORN furnish this service to citizens of this great nation?

  • ILLINOIS_CONSERV

    where I live as well (Chicago burbs). I recall many more in ’04. Proud to say my yard sign is still there. May have something to do with it being connected to an electric charge in my garage! (Just kidding!)

  • ILLINOIS_CONSERV

    where I live as well (Chicago burbs). I recall many more in ’04. Proud to say my yard sign is still there. May have something to do with it being connected to an electric charge in my garage! (Just kidding!)

    • Dan_McLaughlin

      Maybe in part it’s the Obama people not prioritizing signs & stickers, but my wife and my dad have both noticed how hard it is to find Obama stickers and signs in the NYC area. My dad lives in Rockland County just north of the City, which is pretty Democrat by this point and has been since the mid-90s (but relatively conservative D, with a huge Hasidic Jewish population that was very loyal to Hillary). He was offering me extra McCain stickers because he said Rockland doesn’t need more McCain stickers, he sees so many.

      • Dan_McLaughlin

        Funny story I notced in my Palin integrity post – Palin didn’t back Murkowski and supported her opponent in the primary. NRSC did robo-calls down the stretch with a woman who sounded like her saying “I’m Sarah and I’m calling to ask you to support Lisa Murkowski…”

  • tccesq

    Driving around Las Vegas, I have yet to see an Obama yard sign and only a few McCain signs. As far as the down-ticket races, you can hardly walk down the street without being innundated with signs. Strange.

  • ColoKid

    Thanks, Dan. Great articles.

    My own “internal”, gut-inspired, Midwestern/Western poll says these large spread polls are whacko. Not that Obama can’t win, mind you, but that he won’t win by 8 or 10 or 14 or 27 points. America is still essentially a right-center country, and I can’t believe that “right-center” is compatible with “Obama landslide”.

    I’m still very nervous about the October jobs report, which will be issued on the Friday before the election. It aint gonna be good, and it aint gonna help McCain. But meanwhile, Colorado has early voting, and I voted today. One vote at a time, folks. They all add up.

  • Whitehorse

    Keep working! Get out the vote!