NPR’s headline on yesterday’s town hall on health care by President Obama:
Obama Says His Health Plan Won’t ‘Pull The Plug On Grandma’
The NY Daily News had a similar headline using that quote in this morning’s print edition, as does this Reuters item; the NY Post less delicately shortens the headline to ‘WE WON’T PULL PLUG ON GRANNY’.
This is not the place the White House wanted to be in right now. Even George W. Bush, as many things as his opponents threw at him and as low as his approval ratings went at times, never felt compelled to … well, as Jake Tapper put it,
[I]f the president finds himself at a town hall meeting telling the American people that he does not want to set up a panel to kill their grandparents … perhaps, at some point, the president has lost control of the message.
I’ve previously covered one of the primary reasons why Obama is in this pickle: he doesn’t have a clearly defined, easily and consistently explained plan. There are still multiple bills, none of which has the unambiguous support of either the White House or a working majority in both Houses of Congress; the bills are massively long and complicated, yet for the most part they leave huge numbers of unanswered questions by deferring important decisions to vaguely-constructed and questionably supervised bureaucracies. Many of the worst things in the bills are not what they say they will do, but what by silence they would permit to happen. The absence of a ban on using federally-provided insurance funds for abortions is one example, as noted by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops in explaining why the USCCB (long a supporter of more government funding for universal health care coverage) can’t support the House bill:
Some seemed surprised at [a previous objection by the Bishops], since abortion was not specifically mentioned in draft health care bills until recently. Those with longer memories may recall that the Medicaid statute doesn’t mention abortion either, but it was funding 300,000 abortions a year in the 1970s until we put a stop to that with the Hyde amendment. In any case, numerous amendments to keep abortion out of health care reform have been defeated in committee, and it is now apparent that some leaders have every intention of threatening the health care reform process by forcing Americans to accept abortion mandates and/or fund unlimited abortion in their health coverage.
Camille Paglia, also a supporter in general of health care ‘reform’ but a critic of Obama’s approach, connects the same dynamic to the debate over whether Obamacare would create “death panels” empowered to cut off treatment for those deemed not worthy of continued life, as we have seen happen in European systems:
I simply do not understand the drift of my party toward a soulless collectivism. This is in fact what Sarah Palin hit on in her shocking image of a “death panel” under Obamacare that would make irrevocable decisions about the disabled and elderly. When I first saw that phrase, headlined on the Drudge Report, I burst out laughing. It seemed so over the top! But on reflection, I realized that Palin’s shrewdly timed metaphor spoke directly to the electorate’s unease with the prospect of shadowy, unelected government figures controlling our lives. A death panel not only has the power of life and death but is itself a symptom of a Kafkaesque brave new world where authority has become remote, arbitrary and spectral. And as in the Spanish Inquisition, dissidence is heresy, persecuted and punished.
Surely, the basic rule in comprehensive legislation should be: First, do no harm. The present proposals are full of noble aims, but the biggest danger always comes from unforeseen and unintended consequences.
Even beyond the particulars of the present bills, what Obama and his Congressional allies are confronting is the legacy of their own party’s deliberately constructed image. And a part of that image that they may least have expected to haunt them is the ghost of Terri Schiavo.
Political parties are not born anew each election cycle. The average voter, having limited time to devote to politics, very prudently comes to rely upon the general reputation of a party to form an impression of what its individual members stand for. A reasonably informed voter will try to learn at least a few things about particular candidates, but even political junkies rarely know A to Z on where all their elected representatives stand on every issue of public consequence (quick: what does your State Senator think about immigration? capital gains taxes? the minimum wage? gun control?). Thus, a party’s image is important and carries the baggage, for good and for ill, of the high-profile debates in which it takes a prominent position. Moreover, a party’s image is built not only by its leaders but its supporters inside and out of public office. People can usually filter out the crazies on the margins, but the battery of media commentators and activists involved in any given controversy add to that overall image.
Indelible images are hard to shake. During the last election, Obama ran ads criticizing John McCain for opposing federal funding for stem cell research and being an anti-immigrant hardliner. These were blatant lies, of course - the polar opposites of McCain’s actual positions, laughably in the case of the immigration ads given that McCain had risked his political career over his support for the comprehensive immigration bill - but Obama obviously assumed that the ads would be effective because the audience would identify McCain with his party’s reputation on those issues and would be unaware of his actual record.
Which brings us to Terri Schiavo. Now, I have previously discussed the immediate political cost to the Bush Administration’s agenda of the Schiavo brouhaha in March of 2005. Commentators have debated for some years now how much political damage the GOP suffered with moderates from its identification with the movement (headed largely by committed pro-lifers, many of them religious) to prevent the State of Florida from, essentially, starving the brain-damaged Schiavo to death. That controversy was an unsettling one: the issue was what to do about a woman who had no medically realistic prospects for recovery, was consuming expensive healthcare dollars, and had left no reliable instructions on what her wishes would be in that situation, and a lot of people were very uncomfortable with either option, continuing to pay for her care or depriving her of nourishment. Public opinion at the time was hardly unanimous on what should be done (indeed, even some high-profile left-wingers sided with those who opposed removing Schiavo’s feeding tube). The conventional wisdom in the pundit class was that the damage done was all to one side - that the flap revealed the GOP to be in the thrall of religious extremists. I don’t doubt that some such damage was indeed done. But little attention was paid to the fact that the Right vs Left narrative of the Schiavo episode - one willingly stoked by Democrats eager to capitalize on precisely the “Religious Right overreach” angle - painted the Left as the advocates of ‘pulling the plug’ on Terri Schiavo. Another anecdote had been added to the public’s collective memory of what the two sides stand for - an anecdote, I should add, that is consistent with other pieces of the puzzle, as the Left has clashed with the same pro-lifers again and again on abortion, assisted suicide, and the destruction of embryos for stem cell research. Sarah Palin’s invocation of her Down’s Syndrome son Trig is another flashpoint: it is the Left that insists that it is appropriate to abort a child when prenatal testing reveals such a condition, and it was from the Left that we heard cruder jibes suggesting that Palin should have done just that. A coherent pattern emerges, forms itself and takes root in the public’s mind.
In 2006 and 2008, nothing happened - at least, nothing visible that would interfere with the Democrats’ march to power, as other issues were at the fore and nobody on either side much wanted to discuss euthanasia. But now, with health care legislation at stake and the end-of-life issues it poses front and center, and with “cutting costs” a core part of his mantra for “reform,” Barack Obama is running into the legacy of Terri Schiavo and those other pieces of the pattern. Schiavo’s name isn’t heard much, but it doesn’t have to be, because it’s part of the public’s memory. The American people know that the same people who wanted to pull the tube from Terri Schiavo want to be trusted not to pull the plug on grandma. Which is why they are appropriately skeptical of any hint that Obamacare would leave any power in federal hands to make those decisions.
Four years ago, the Left was proud of its stance on withdrawing not just medical care but food itself from Terri Schiavo. That was their choice. If the price to be paid is a public in need of assurance that President Obama and his plan don’t share those values and won’t encourage the same thing, well, choices have consequences, and the voiceless dead can still haunt us in ways we had never foreseen.
Excellent read
restofva Wednesday, August 12th at 5:34PM EDT (link)I wonder how many of the not-so-informed voters would be shocked to find out that the rich white, racist, puppy-kicking Republicans are not actually the plug-pullers.
Excellent read
restofva Wednesday, August 12th at 5:34PM EDT (link)I wonder how many of the not-so-informed voters would be shocked to find out that the rich white, racist, puppy-kicking Republicans are not actually the plug-pullers.
THANK YOU DAN - Gamecock has never backed off on Shiavo - see Reagan's evil empire speech - more later on my
Mike gamecock DeVine Wednesday, August 12th at 5:41PM EDT (link)extensive writings on this that has always challenged the status quo and I owe you a great debt for reminding me of this matter, as it is very relevant now and vindicates me, Reagan and the pro-life movement that is much more pwerful than so many realize especially among gen-x’ers and up.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
What a shame that
Britcom Thursday, August 13th at 6:27AM EDT (link)the GOP platform buries this plank of the platform at the bottom of the list under “values” and puts reducing carbon emissions for the Global Warming scam at the top.
“The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity.” - Rollo May
Is America a Democracy or a Republic?
Click here to check out my Blog.
555 - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine Friday, August 14th at 10:25AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
5 - Great point
Dave_in_Fla Wednesday, August 12th at 5:56PM EDT (link)One of the points I’ve been making with my family is that Sarah Palin’s Death Panel comment was politically brilliant (whether or not it was intended) because she brings unique moral authority on the issue, given the tremendous pressure put on parents to abort Down Syndrome children, because they “won’t contribute to society”.
When she first made the comment, Tommy Christopher crowed on Twitter about how the left wants to encourage her to be the voice of the GOP, because she will tear us down. When I read Tommy’s comments, I thought to myself “be careful what you wish for.”
That has turned out to be more true than I expected. The Death Panel meme turned out to be easily understandable by the common person, and invoked a cultural fear in our society that lead to the success for movies like Logan’s Run and Soylent Green. The left’s delight in how “stupid this woman is” has quickly turned to dismay as the debate has turn toward defending against rationing that will result in choices that literally decide who will live and who will die. The fact that very real examples of those decisions can be found in the UK NHS, doesn’t instill confidence in their assurances.
“If they were merely incompetent, then at least SOME of their actions would have been to the benefit of the country.” - Joe McCarthy
Dave, I am now convinced that you are right on this
Mike gamecock DeVine Wednesday, August 12th at 6:23PM EDT (link)I initially wished she hadn’t coined the term due to the fact that we already have such panels w/o govt and I am admittedly influenced by a personal matter
but, given Obama’s on tape statements re the 100 yr old and his own grandmother and the actual words of the bill and a column by a liberal in the wash post that affrimed the facts, I am persuaded that Palin was brilliant to say this
I have admired her since long before she was a vp candidate because she is right on all the issues, has actually accomplished things, has courage and…
before she needs to bone up on anything to make beltway conservatives happy
90% of America needs to bone up first!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
Thanks Mike
Dave_in_Fla Wednesday, August 12th at 6:43PM EDT (link)I’m not claiming she came up with the term with forethought (not saying one way or another). But it brilliantly illustrates her political ability. She has terrific political instincts that lets her say things that just plain work from a political standpoint.
John O’Sullivan, who worked for Margaret Thatcher throughout her entire career, said in November that Palin is the best natural politician he has ever seen.
“If they were merely incompetent, then at least SOME of their actions would have been to the benefit of the country.” - Joe McCarthy
The foundations of pressure are already there
oblio Wednesday, August 12th at 7:47PM EDT (link)with the push for earlier and earlier prenatal tests to detect DS and other ‘defects’. The advantage in early detection you see, is that it is less traumatic (for who ??) to abort earlier than later. A dirty little secret of prenatal testing is that amniocentesis (sp ?), a dangerous procedure for the child, is recommended when the probability (based on age and other markers) of having a DS child is greater than losing the child through amnio. You do the logic.
Thanks Dan, about time Terri is mentioned.
johnt Wednesday, August 12th at 6:22PM EDT (link)The split between normal people and the Deathers during that disgusting debacle, that essay on where we have sunk as a nation, is only an intro to where we are headed.
The standards will loosen, people will turn callous, the mind will shut down, Imperial Rome may wind up looking good.
And we will see but avert our gaze and conscience to cases unlike Terri’s, cases where life is possible, more then possible.
This is the future ?
“a man’s admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him”. Tocqueville
555 - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine Wednesday, August 12th at 6:24PM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” - Andrew Jackson
Of course she won't.
billyoblivion Wednesday, August 12th at 6:25PM EDT (link)“Obama Says His Health Plan Won’t ‘Pull The Plug On Grandma’”
Of course not. Under his health plan she’ll never get PLUGGED IN TO BEGIN WITH.
Silly mortals.
Eunice Shriver, Anyone?
BillM Wednesday, August 12th at 8:09PM EDT (link)Has it been mentioned, here or anywhere, that were it up to many of Ms. Shriver’s eulogizers the Special Olympics would not need to exist? As was stated by one of Dr. Tiller’s mourners, most of the women getting LTA’s at the same time she was were carrying Down babies (she herself was not).
STEVENS, J., filed a dissenting opinion, in which SCALIA, J., joined.
I'm not going to re-fight
Trunk Wednesday, August 12th at 10:32PM EDT (link)the Terri Schiavo debate - suffice it to say that I do not agree with many (most) Redstate posters on the Schiavo issue, and I also realize that I am not going to convince (m)any of you to change your mind; Nor will you change my mind.
To be clear, if my wife were in the same position, I would have the tube removed - regardless of her extended family’s wishes - and she would do the same for me. Those are our wishes. Whether or not clear instructions were given between husband and wife in the Schiavo case is a matter upon which people can disagree. But if we don’t agree (we don’t) there is insufficient common ground from which to have a debate. However, this statement is the one I wish to address:
“The American people know that the same people who wanted to pull the tube from Terri Schiavo want to be trusted not to pull the plug on grandma. ”
Let’s at least be clear: the OP has the comparison exactly backwards. If the conservative argument against Obamacare is: we don’t want the government making important, life-and-death decisions on our behalf - without our consent, then the Schiavo affair is an example of the government attempting to do exactly that.
The “left” wasn’t trying to pull the plug on Terri, her husband was. The government of the state of Florida (my state) - wasn’t trying to pull the plug either. The courts ruled on several aspects of the case, but ultimately they simply decided (over a 13 year period, if I remember) who had the right to make Terri’s end of life decision. The courts placed that authority in the hands of the husband who made the decision. The state didn’t “pull the plug” either, nor did they order it pulled. If the husband had won the case, and subsequently changed his mind - Terri might still be on the feeding tube in the hospital. To argue otherwise is disingenuous. The federal government was the entity attempting to interfere.
I find it hard to believe that anyone who supports federalism and limited government would accept the federal government’s assertion of a habeas corpus violation in the Schiavo case. Apparently, (if you disagree with the decision) even after 13 YEARS of legal argument - spashed across the news in full view of the citizens of the state and eventually the nation - it is possible that a habeas corpus violation occurred. Is it only due-process when you agree with the decision? Fortunately for the Republic, a federal court put a stop to that nonsense and declined to accept the case.
I wrote my (then) Republican representative (Feeney, 24th) and Senator(Martinez) and told them that they would never have my vote again if they voted for the “Schiavo bill.” Now Feeney is gone and Martinez is leaving - and good riddance to both - although I’m sure my small act of protest had no effect.
So, based on this post I have determined that we DON’T want the government to pull the plug on grandma - because we don’t want a government “death panel” - but we DO want a government panel to prevent my wife from pulling the plug on ME (in accordance with my wishes) just because someone (not me!) doesn’t agree with the decision. That’s the way for Conservatives to win this argument!
“We don’t want a gov’t run health plan that kills you to save money, but we do want one that forces you to live by a set of moral guidelines with regard to your own life and liberty - even if you don’t share the same viewpoints!”
If you are looking for a way to drive off independents, moderates and (especially) libertarian-leaning folks - this is a good way to do it.
I run in a pretty conservative crowd (military officers) and this issue was horribly divisive.
By taking this stance you are explicitly endorsing the government making medical decisions against the wishes of the patient or family. You might as well get ready for the “Biden 2016″ signs, because that’s what you’re buying.
(and no, I didn’t sign up for Redstate 45 minutes ago - but thanks for checking.)
Government is best that governs least…
I think a point we can all agree with on Schiavo
aesthete Wednesday, August 12th at 11:04PM EDT (link)is that there was a contingent of liberals who, as the antithesis of the “conservatives” pushing for the federal government to take action, were pushing for her to have the plug pulled as her moral duty, with the utilitarian argument made that, since she contributed nothing to society in her current state, she should let the resources that went towards her treatment go to a more “worthy” cause. This mentality is very much in effect among progressives looking at implementing government alternatives, and in a system that has been touted as being more compassionate than a free-market alternative, cannot be but a liability for the statists. Dan does a great job of showing why that is so, and regardless of your feelings on Schiavo, the point he raises is a valid one.
As someone of a more libertarian bent than most, I partly agree with you on Schiavo in that there was no reason for the federal government to be involved in what was, essentially, a local issue (and the way that Republicans handled it was mindbogglingly stupid). I also think that “living wills” and their analogues should be respected by the government, even if I am morally opposed to them. However, if I remember correctly, the evidence wasn’t clear on whether or not a living will was ever signed by Schiavo (though I’m a little fuzzy on that point). If she never did, it’s a stretch to say that her husband has any right to dictate what should be between her and her doctor, esp. considering that it was her extended family paying for her treatment.
Guilt is a rope that wears thin.
-Ayn Rand
“I am a freeman in a free state!”
-Last words of Dumnorix, chieftan of the Aedui, 54 BC
Not an agreed point on Schiavo
gensec Thursday, August 13th at 5:21AM EDT (link)a contingent of liberals who, as the antithesis of the “conservatives” pushing for the federal government to take action, were pushing for her to have the plug pulled as her moral duty, with the utilitarian argument made that, since she contributed nothing to society in her current state, she should let the resources that went towards her treatment go to a more “worthy” cause.
My recollection is that very little of the widespread revulsion about Republican congress critters poking their nose into the Schiavos’ and Florida’s business was about supposedly wasting money that could be spent on more “worthy” causes. In fact the two factors that disgusted most voters had nothing to do with that:
First was the macabre spectacle of Terri Schiavo’s mindless remains being kept chugging along for a years’ long “Weekend at Bernie’s.” The vast majority of Americans (74%) wouldn’t want their own remains treated that way, so thought it a desecration to abuse her remains that way, and even more insane that U.S. Representatives and Senators would try to prolong it.
I’m among that 74% grossed out at the idea my remains might be used as a prop in such a creepy psychodrama, but I figure that after my mind is gone I obviously wouldn’t be bothered by what’s done with my physical leftovers. (Atheists figure you won’t even know; and religious figure whether you’re in heaven or hell, your remains’ treatment is the least of your concerns.) So if somebody gets some satisfaction keeping my heart and lungs pumping with a feeding tube, it’s no skin off my back.
That brings us to the second reason most Americans were disgusted with GOP pandering in the Schiavo spectacle. We wouldn’t interfere with the next of kin maintaining their loved one’s remains, figuring that gave them comfort, clinging to some unrealistic hope that she might come back. But even on that count the congress critters’ pandering to a vocal fringe minority had no defense. Mrs. Schiavo’s husband, Mr. Schiavo, had after many years of resistance finally accepted she was gone and wanted to pull the tube. But even that didn’t stop the pandering GOP politicians from poking their noses into a family issue.
Most of us agree that the spouse’s wishes take precedence over any other relatives’. Even if you think the marriage relationship should take second place to blood relatives, that’s an issue to be decided by the state, and it’s only macabre grandstanding for federal legislators to try to second guess the people of Florida on that call. Apparently you agree on the federalism point, but leaving that aside, the idea that a blood relative (much less DC Republican politicians) could overrule a spouse on such an issue is repugnant to most Americans, even in the hypothetical case where some trace of Schiavo’s mind might still have existed.
I’m not remotely suggesting the Schiavo spectacle was primarily to blame for the Republican disaster in the 2006 election. There were much bigger factors like the Iraq war (before the successful surge) and the unfair but successful scapegoating of Bush for Hurricane Katrina. What I am ridiculing is the Schiavo “Weekend at Bernies” fringe’s fantasy that it can rehabilitate itself in public opinion, by trying to piggy back on to legitimate objections about the “duty to die” implied in Obamacare.
I know that some people strongly believe that Terri Schiavo’s remains should have been kept pumping, that they sincerely believe it was more than remains, but don’t sidetrack the realistic chance of defeating Obamacare by trying to rehabilitate the Schiavo spectacle.
Schiavo was not "remains"
Britcom Thursday, August 13th at 6:01AM EDT (link)The woman wasn’t dead, wasn’t dying, and wasn’t being kept alive artificially, and wasn’t a vegetable. She was a severely physically disabled person who was mentally alert and awake who was allowed by an inadequate system to become the victim of a legal homicide.
She had no terminal condition and the feeding tube was put in at the hospice for the convenience of the staff, not the need of the patient. She was perfectly capable of being fed and hydrated via mouth.
She was moved from a nursing care facility (a place where people go for assisted living) to a hospice (a place where the terminally ill are put to die) by her unfaithful husband because he knew that he could have her bumped off there and be rid of her so he could marry his mistress, even though Schiavo’s parents were willing to take her into their own care and financial responsibility. She never had any living will and her husband never produced any proof that she ever wanted medical care, nursing care, or food and water withheld. We have living wills for people who want to be left to die, the law is supposed to assume that everyone else wants to live.
But instead she was starved to death and suffered tremendously before she died. She wasn’t even anesthetized during her suffering. We don’t allow such a thing to be done to a dog, but a human we now do and guess who had the power to stop it but didn’t? Our old friend Charlie Crist who was the elected Attorney General. Christ refused to step in to halt the killing. Later, Crist publicly commended the judge who ordered Schiavo’s death and blocked all attempts to stop it, at a dinner in the judges honor. Crist is definitely a Nazi.
“The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity.” - Rollo May
Is America a Democracy or a Republic?
Click here to check out my Blog.
corr., that should be 'Crist' throughout. .nt
Britcom Thursday, August 13th at 6:20AM EDT (link).
“The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity.” - Rollo May
Is America a Democracy or a Republic?
Click here to check out my Blog.
"Nazi" delusions
gensec Thursday, August 13th at 6:31AM EDT (link)who was mentally alert and awake
…
Crist is definitely a Nazi
Mentally alert??? Yeah right, just like Obama was born in Kenya, and even if he was born a U.S. citizen he forfeited his citizenship in Indonesia.
BTW, even if we buy your considered judgment that “Crist is definitely a Nazi“, where in Florida was the widespread clamoring against that supposed Nazi, to have the government intervene to keep the feeding tube in? What’s your point, that 74% of Americans, including 56% of Republicans, are “Nazis” because we didn’t support the continued desecration of Schiavo’s remains?
How about you take your Nazi slinging to 911truth.org/
"legal homicide" is exactly what is happening in abortion,
penguin2 Thursday, August 13th at 6:48AM EDT (link)why would one think it would be any different when it came to end of life decisions for the elderly and disabled. Consider the “assisted suicide” laws already on the books in Oregon and Washington.
You are absolutely right Britcom in your comment. One of the main things that stood out about the case to me, was the commitment of her parents to her care. They were willing to care for her and able to. The legal issues made a tragedy of the case, husband vs. parents.
When the state (government) has a compelling interest in health care, the same scenarios will occur. In fact, that will muddy the waters even more. Conflict between family members, along with the intrusion of the State, will IMO, create more of these nightmare cases.
Thank you for pointing out to gensec, that Terri Schiavo was not “remains.” “Remains” are what the Medical Examiner or Coroner work on when the life and soul is gone from the body. “Remains” are what the funeral home comes for when a person has been declared dead. Terri Schiavo was alive until the state participated in her “end of life” issues.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.
Benjamin Franklin
There should be a 5 day waiting period on the use of the word "nazi."
Achance Thursday, August 13th at 6:49AM EDT (link)I don’t know much about Gov. Crist, but I do know a lot about the NSDAP and Hitler’s Germany; Crist is no “Nazi.” The word is no more useful when it is misused on the right than on the left. Leave ignorantly calling people nazis to the mind-numbed lefties.
In Vino Veritas
Right Achance, let me qualify my agreement with Brit.
penguin2 Thursday, August 13th at 7:12AM EDT (link)Labeling anybody a Nazi, is wrong and unhelpful to the discussion. I didn’t catch that when commenting Britcom. One can no more label Crist that than Terri’s husband.
People feel passionately about life and death issues. Nazism always comes to people’s minds whenever we think of people destroying life vs. nature ending life. Hitler started out with the ill, infirm and elderly and went on to the Jews, gypsies, political opponents…In fact this kind of connects to Dan’s point. The people do not trust the government when it comes to these life sustaining issues, and just as he said Schiavo’s name is rarely mentioned, but it is in the public’s consciousness, so too, are the images of Nazi Germany.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.
Benjamin Franklin
The nazi's among us
Britcom Thursday, August 13th at 9:12PM EDT (link)Anyone who would participate in, or defend, or glorify the murder of innocents by the authority or the power of the state is a nazi. I don’t use the term lightly.
I live in Florida, I fought with the Schindlers to save their daughter’s life. I saw what happened and who did what. It was a murder.
“The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity.” - Rollo May
Is America a Democracy or a Republic?
Click here to check out my Blog.
Actually, given the number of people who were
mbecker908 Thursday, August 13th at 9:04AM EDT (link)praying about this situation, “Christ” in fact did refuse to step in and halt the “killing”. Maybe because Terry was already with Him.
I agree that she was not "remains"
Trunk Thursday, August 13th at 8:39PM EDT (link)however, Terri was not able to be fed or hydrated by mouth. She was not able to see. The portions of her brain responsible for higher cognitive functions (and vision) were atrophied, scarred and irreparably damaged. The results of the autopsy confirm these things. I’m not making them up.
If I cut off both your legs (absent prosthetics) you CANNOT walk. No matter how much you wish or believe that you can.
There was no living will and therefore all we have is Michael’s assertion that his wife would not want to live that way. On the other hand, we have absolutely no proof from the blood relatives that she would have wanted to be kept alive either.
Even if Terri had never thought about what she wanted - and never told anyone - the point remains that at some point, someone was responsible for making decisions about her life since she was unable to do so. Once the dispute between Terri’s family and Michael Schiavo was resolved - then the federal gov’t decided to interfere. This is the problem. Whether you like the outcome is another matter; the fact remains that the gov’t interfered in the health decisions of a family - exactly what the OP is railing against.
As for whether she suffered - I doubt it, based on the autopsy. (and she died from dehydration not starvation) I do agree that it’s stupid to have starved her to end her life, but then again the reason for that is because assisted suicide is illegal in FL.
If I were in a similar position and - IF the busy-bodies in gov’t would acknowledge that my body belongs to ME, not them - the doctors could simply hit me with 60cc’s of potassium and end it quickly. Instead I get to suffer and my family gets to watch. Or, conversely, the doctors could try a new experimental wonder drug - not approved by the FDA - to return me to consciousness. But, we can’t do that either because the gov’t has decided that I belong to IT and not the other way around.
Government is best that governs least…
If there's no living will and someone is willing to pay expenses
aesthete Thursday, August 13th at 9:28PM EDT (link)I see no problem with keeping her alive, if simply under the somewhat philosophical reason that the default for humanity is life. I really don’t see where the controversy was in the ordeal; it should have been a simple case of Schiavo’s husband transferring the responsibility of payment to her parents, and I don’t see why his rationale was taken as having been superior to that of her parents, when there was no legal document to take the side of either. As you say, it is a decision best left to the family in question.
Guilt is a rope that wears thin.
-Ayn Rand
“I am a freeman in a free state!”
-Last words of Dumnorix, chieftan of the Aedui, 54 BC
I don't believe
Trunk Friday, August 14th at 1:08AM EDT (link)that Michael’s position was “superior” to the family’s position, or vice versa. However, if my wife had told me her wishes - and suffered this fate prior to establishing a living will or other document - then I would ensure that her wishes were met.
I’m certain her family would be pissed at me, but money would not be the issue in that case. The issue would be: my wife told me she doesn’t want to live as a vegetable, kept alive artificially. No amount of money would make me NOT comply with her wishes.
Now, many people don’t believe that such an interchange occurred between Michael and Terri, and frankly: we’ll never know. For what it’s worth, however, Michael was twice offered multi-million dollar sums of money to transfer his medical decision authority to the blood relatives. He refused to do so on both occasions. I don’t think he’s a saint, by any means, but that certainly lends some credence to his story.
Government is best that governs least…
My prosecutor's mind
Lammo Friday, August 14th at 1:38AM EDT (link)will always believe that Michael could not afford to have Terri recover which is why he refused to transfer her care. Terri was not a “vegetable” and the type of therapy that could have helped her was withheld by Michael.
ACORN: Association of Criminals Obama Represented in the Nineties. (jupitersuite)
Don’t be so open minded that your brains fall out. (Fr. John Corapi, SOLT)
Crime never takes a holiday. (Dennis J. O’Shea, R.I.P.)
Unlawful is against the law. Illegal is a sick bird. (Ooold joke)
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read. (Groucho Marx)
5 Lammo nt
mom2oneson Friday, August 14th at 2:58AM EDT (link)I didn't say that it was the majority
aesthete Thursday, August 13th at 9:34PM EDT (link)or even one of the main talking points in this whole debacle, but it was out there, and that was the mentality of part of the Democratic opposition.
Guilt is a rope that wears thin.
-Ayn Rand
“I am a freeman in a free state!”
-Last words of Dumnorix, chieftan of the Aedui, 54 BC
aesthete, no living will, just a 'what if' disscussion
penguin2 Thursday, August 13th at 7:31AM EDT (link)between husband and wife that couples have. And “extended family paying for her treatment” was one of the most heart-breaking issues to me. She had family, her parents willing and able to care for her and her husband basically took away that right and the right of them to have their daughter. If Obamacare passes and the provisions are in the bill, or even without specified “panels” there will be replication of this scenario many times over. These are the same issues the people of Britain and Canada face.
Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God.
Benjamin Franklin
Everyone on this Sciavo thread is missing the diarist's point
civil_truth Friday, August 14th at 2:23AM EDT (link)Regardless of which side one takes in this collision between an irresistable force (Terri’s parents) and an immovable object (Michael), the overarching point is that we had two sets of people who in their minds and hearts were advocating on Terri’s behalf, arguing for actions that they felt were in Terri’s best interest.
What the diarist would argue, and I would agree - and hopefully those here on both sides can agree - is that no one with any moral compass would have wanted the decision on Terri’s care to have been taken out of the hands of the protagonists here and instead have the government determine by a bureaucratic process based on impersonal cost-benefit analysis, utilitarian calculus, rationing of scarce resources - to have the decision made by a government directive that by no shape of the imagination was guided by or influence by the concept of acting in the patient’s best interest but rather was based upon some definition of society’s interest which superceded the patient’s best interest by ignoring it.
However one may feel about the outcome, the process at least was centered around trying to determine Terri’s best interest - which was far, far superior to the process that was intended to be put in place by ObamaCare (or at least the foundation laid out) for the government to direct the process and determine the outcome.
That was the diarist’s point - although in the heat of the continuing dispute that continues today, it was obscured.
And Rightly So!
Well said, civil_truth. 5 nt
TNJim Friday, August 14th at 2:31AM EDT (link)“No. You can’t” -Moe Lane
Michael Schiavo's motivations.
Britcom Friday, August 14th at 6:00AM EDT (link)At the time Terri collapsed, here husband Michael was the only on there with her. The circumstances surrounding her collapse were unknown but domestic violence was a possibility. Terri was found face down and not breathing by paramedics even though Michael later admitted that he knew CPR but did nothing to help his wife. The first thing a person who knows CPR does is turn the person over on their back and check vital signs. Michael did not do this.
Later Michael was appointed Terri’s guardian.
In 1993 Michael Schiavo received $1million dollars for Terri from a medical malpractice lawsuit against a doctor who had treated her. The money was to be used to pay for Terri’s medical needs. Just a few months later Michael entered a “Do Not Resuscitate” order for Terri at her care facility.
At some point Michael met Jodi Centonze (the mistress). And, at some point Michael became a Registered Nurse.
Centonze’s mother, Eleanor was an employee of then Pinellas County Sheriff Everett Rice. Eleanor worked as a clerk at the Pinellas County Sheriff’s Department, a position she held for 20 years until her retirement in 1999. Michael Schiavo was hired by Sheriff Rice to work in the Inmate’s Medical Care Division of Pinellas Country Jail. Rice’s hiring of Michael Schiavo came at the same time that guardianship proceedings were being heard in the court of Rice’s long time friend, Judge George Greer. Michael testified that Terri had told him that she would never want to be kept alive by artificial means. Greer made every effort to ensure that he remained in control of the case and insisted that Terri’s feeding be halted even though it is against the law for anyone to withhold natural feeding and hydration in Florida, Greer ordered ALL feeding and hydration halted. Greer refused to allow any effort to have a new guardian appointed for Terri, and refused her parents petitions to have their daughter transferred to their care.
During the time that Terri was in a care facility Michael remained married to her, but lived with Jodi Centoneze and two children were born to them before Terri’s death. After Terri’s death, Michael kept the remainder of the million dollars and married Centonze.
Terri Schindler Schiavo was only 41 years old at the time of her death.
Here is a video series about the story:
(Part 1)
(Part 2)
(Part 3)
(Part 4)
(Part 5)
(Part 6)
(Part 7)
“The opposite of courage in our society is not cowardice, it is conformity.” - Rollo May
Is America a Democracy or a Republic?
Click here to check out my Blog.
Whatever people say about governer Palin
antisocial Wednesday, August 12th at 10:51PM EDT (link)she is absolutely right when she calls out the death panel. 2 weeks ago I got into an argument with my co-worker about healthcare….
This guy said the reason for all the problems is people are living longer and longer and as they grow old their healthcare needs grow… they need cancer and diabetes treatments.. and then more older folks need hip replacements because they fall off all the time… wheelchairs and all that.. And there are crazies like Palin who give birth to children knowing those kids will suffer all their life and burden all of us taxpayers….
I just asked him one simple question…. What do you want to happen if you are diagnosed with type 1 diabetes in 2 year? How long do you want to live .. 60,70,80…? What do you want to happen if government decides that you are overweight,….. at 220 pounds you are…. and that your life is not worth the amount of money it takes to keep you alive for another 30-40 or 50 years?
You know what response I got? Watch out the company you are keeping. Also watch out where you are getting your information from… Regardless of what you think you still need to keep your sanity and think about yourself… You sound like those right wing crazies…
Stunning disrespect for life….
No you can’t - Moe Lane
——————————
The Emperor has no clothes!!!
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Republicans who lost the Crap-and-Raid fight in the House -
Mary Bomo Mac (CA-45)
Mike Castle (DE)
Mark Kirk (IL-10)
Frank A. LoBiondo (NJ-02)
Chris Smith (NJ-04)
Leonard Lance (NJ-07)
John M. McHugh (NY-23)
Dave Reichert (WA-08)
House Bill 3200
sacody Thursday, August 13th at 3:57PM EDT (link)HB 3200 makes sure that you don’t just have to be in a situation like Terri to have the plug pulled:
“`(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items–
`(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;
`(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;
`(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
`(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.’.”
Also, you will be put in the postion of taking this end of life couseling over and over:
“`(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination under subsection (WW), including any related discussion during such examination, shall not be considered an advance care planning consultation for purposes of applying the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).
`(B) An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.
`(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.
`(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term `order regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that–”
Basically, tens of millions of Americans will be walking around with their own set of personalized-government-mandated order of treatment procedures for end of life issues. VERY SCARY!!!!