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Unplug Education. No Computers In Schools.

Tune Out, Not Drop Out

A hot issue today in education is the usefulness of computers in the classroom. Some people – President Obama among them – argue that increasing resources should be spent to bring more computers and more internet access into schools and integrate them into education. The controversy, whether at the federal level or the local school board level, is usually over whether this is worth the expense. But the reality is that what our kids need most of all from schools – and libraries – is a respite from technology and time to give sustained, uninterrupted attention to learning the academic basics that they can then apply to any technological platform – just like the people who created those platforms in the first place. What we should be demanding from our schools is a computer- and internet-free zone.

The NY Times reports on a study showing that kids age 8-18 spend an average of 7 1/2 hours a day using a smart phone, computer, television or other electronic device. “And because so many of them are multitasking – say, surfing the Internet while listening to music – they pack on average nearly 11 hours of media content into that seven and a half hours.”

The study then turned to the possible impact of all that time consuming electronic media:

Contrary to popular wisdom, the heaviest media users reported spending a similar amount of time exercising as the light media users. Nonetheless, other studies have established a link between screen time and obesity.

While most of the young people in the study got good grades, 47 percent of the heaviest media users – those who consumed at least 16 hours a day – had mostly C’s or lower, compared with 23 percent of those who typically consumed media three hours a day or less. The heaviest media users were also more likely than the lightest users to report that they were bored or sad, or that they got into trouble, did not get along well with their parents and were not happy at school.

The study could not say whether the media use causes problems, or, rather, whether troubled youths turn to heavy media use.

Certainly the latter is a significant possibility – that computers and TV are more readily adopted by preteens and teens who aren’t playing sports or socializing or wooing the opposite sex. But the broader point remains: schools should not be gateways to the internet, an adult medium if ever there was one. They should be a place to ensure that kids learn different skills than the ones they get from playing video games. If kids need to learn to work with computers as a trade, they can do that no sooner than junior/senior year of high school, the same way they would take a shop class. But otherwise, they are mostly being given a crutch that either short-circuits their learning process or the teacher’s teaching process – and reinforces as well the mental habits of overuse of technology.

I’m not one to argue that TV or computers are all bad for kids, although parents have to exercise some responsibility for placing outer limits on time spent on those media and supervise the content kids are exposed to. But school is supposed to ensure that kids get grounded in the basics. Unplugging them for the duration of the school day is the best way to ensure that happens.

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COMMENTS

  • katnandu

    I couldn’t agree more!

    • bsblogger

      I am a public school teacher where I teach math and physics and I DEFINITELY battle the dependency on calculators from students. I even battle this problem with parents and administration, most of whom either don’t know math or never taught it and don’t understand that calculators and computers can be a barrier to learning.

      That being said, an outright ban on using computers would be just as big of a crime. I use computers (especially YouTube!) daily and it makes the classroom experience and learning better. The amount of educational materials online is beyond description. Like all pieces of technology in society it must be managed, not banned. Are we going to ban cars since teenagers die in car crashes? There are a million examples of how technology improves our lives. The problem today is that it is changing so rapidly that we must be more mindful and proactive of the potential pitfalls,

      Comuters and the internet that connects them is transforming education for the better. Conservatives need to embrace this paradigm shift because it will allow citizens more control and choice concerning the education of themselves and their children. Attempting a ban of computers will result in allowing Democrats and teacher unions to continue their stranglehold on education in America. TECHNOLOGY CAN BREAK THIS MONOPOLY!! The proof is in online education at the colledge level stealing students from the traditional universities. Online education continues to improve and is trickling into the lower grades. NO BANS!!

      BS

      PS – This is my first post. I’m a long time lurker.

      • wilfranc

        I am related to a public school system IT guy that thinks most computers in the classroom are a waste. From the stories he tells, as much or more damage is done by game playing and teachers not knowing how to use them. One teacher uses the lab to have students print out the tests and then take them. If you read the article correctly, kids don’t need the school to be able to plug in and experience youtube.

        As someone who has taken a college class online, the pure online atmosphere is not the answer either, especially for the harder classes. I have also sat in college classes where the teacher used youtube videos (her laptop made it impossible to hear the dialog), and another who used technology (internet, inclass interactive screens) and found it quite frustrating. In that class, we attended four days a week, and we discovered that he put things on the internet that he failed to announce in class. The same homework problems that were in the book, he put online and we had to pay for a subscription to access on top of the book.

        Some people believe that technology is the end result, I believe it is a tool. Using technology is not proof that learning or information is advanced (a lot of bad information is freely found on the internet). I started my drafting career by using a pencil and had to convert to cad. The end drawings are only as good as the operator. I worked in the truss industry where a lot of cad drawings, made by builders who bought cad programs, designed their own houses.

        A client of mine who teaches at a college seems to think a blend of online time with class time would be best. I agree. I would think that the use of techonolgy could be used to reduce the physical school buidings (reducing public cost) by splitting time between online and home. A lot of parents works different shifts and schedules, and making school more adaptable to the people they serve could be a starting place for technology’s genius.

      • mdd1956

        Balance is one thing computers can bring to the classroom..

        Our experience in 2 different school districts, at all age levels, is that the money is not REALLY being spent the way they say it is.

        Obama says internet access but access is CHEAP and we already spent the money. Virtually all classrooms are wired, every library / reading center / ESE / language lab etc. already have tons of computers.

        Schools are spending an enormous amount of money on extremely expensive presentation equipment. Teachers like the gizmos….who doesn’t like new toys.

        My kids are in grades 7, 10 and a college sophomore, I am as appalled at the content in their textbooks as I am of how the material and social / cultural / political / historical issues are discussed.

        • rec0n

          We have huge curriculuum (sp?) issues, and a whole lot of elitist schoolboard boneheads cutting the parents and children out of discussion on them. There are parents across the country fighting for a good education for their kids that are up against the same mentality, and tactics, we see in DC. And they’re losing those battles, guys.

          We have Obama correctly indicating many Asian children score much better in math than we do, but instead of advocating Singapore math, he informs us our children therefore need to be in school 365 days a year. Guess why I think that is.

          Oliver Stone has created a movie called The Secret History to put Hitler in ‘context’ for our kids, and he’d like to get that into the schools next to An Inconvenient Truth, apparently.”We’re going to educate our minds and liberalize them and broaden them”, he states.
          http://www.thrfeed.com/2010/01/oliver-stone-history-america.html

          Homeschoolers often do much better scholastically than those in the public school system, yet it’s becoming more and more difficult legally to do that. My SIL had to move out of her state to continue teaching hers. And if you do, there seems a good chance a courthouse judge will take your child and shove them right back in, on the grounds that they’re too Christian. Unacceptable.

          I don’t have an issue w/computers being used in class *judiciously*. My 4th grader has done several PowerPoint presentations this year as well, which just floored me as he’d only *written* ONE. More interestingly, he’s had frequent visits from green teens informing him of all the ways we waste energy and how he can be a better #@&%! global citizen.

          So. As far as computers go, I’m not against them being used as another tool in the classroom. I’m much more concerned about the other tools – the teachers themselves, the textbooks, the school boards, the content of the curriculuums. In my district, they’re considering not teaching the kids how to write (cursive) because it’s considered unnecessary. And then he was given spelling homework – written in cursive. He hasn’t been taught to READ IT.

          It’s ugly out there.

  • Achance

    Few kids, and lots of adults, can do even the most rudimentary arithmetic in their heads or even make change.

    • monstermom

      I say we toss the computers and the calculators !!!!!!!!

    • Vladimir

      …& if your bill is, say $3.77, hand the kid a five.

      After he dutifully punches 5-0-0-return, hand him two pennies.

      And watch his/her head explode.

      • monstermom

        it is everywhere! My nephews just graduated High School from a Virginia school district largely considered to be one of the best in the nation. I asked them to solve 5 x 397 x 2. Ten minutes later they each had an answer – and it was wrong.

        • Slightly_Askew

          I gave my 10 year old this same problem. Took him about 20 seconds to recognize that he could reorder it and about 3 more seconds to do 397 x 10 in his head.

      • Richard Mullins

        that shouldn’t be hard but these days calculators and whatnot are crutches. It goes the same way when it comes to how much sales tax you’ll have on an item. When you consider that Percent is part of 100, it should be quite easy to figure out. I think that simple logic teaching died when I graduated from High School(that hasn’t been all that long ago).

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      I still remember having to look up logarithms and trigonometric values in the back of the text book. By using calculators properly, students can work much more complex problems than they could without them.

      Sure, teach the concepts first, but once those concepts are down, the use of calculators can improve learning.

      • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

        I agree that nobody needs to carry tables of sines, cosines and tangents around. But what about addition and subtraction? It’s not like there are calculators that do logarithms but not simple arithmetic.

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          When it hinders, don’t use it. When it enhances, DO use it. If the teacher doesn’t know the difference, they shouldn’t be teaching in the first place.

          • Achance

            to advanced algebra, calculus, trig, etc. I AM troubled by kids, and lots of adults, who can’t add, subtract, multiply, and divide. I know I should be dead because I got all my arithemetic by the old-fashioned “drill and kill” method but I still remember my multiplication tables and I can apply My Dear Aunt Sally. And I can still do the relatively simple stuff in my head faster and more reliably than most young people I see can do it with a calculator.

            My idea of good clean fun is when I’m at the cash register and the bill is something like $12.08, I’ll put down a $20, wait til the kid punches it in and say, “oh, here’s the eight cents.” Then you get to see the kid sit there and vibrate because s/he hasn’t a clue what to do. Usually, all they can do is call for help, do a void and start over. And most of them haven’t been taught what that shelf above the drawer is for, so they put the $20 in as soon as you give it to them. If you’re a really rotten person when they’ve gotten totally confused and start over trying to give you change for your $20.08, you can say, “but I gave you a $50,” and they have no way to disprove it unless there isn’t a $50 in their drawer at all. I wouldn’t do that last act in real life, but I learned to walk in a retail store and have owned and run retail stores in my earlier incarnations and I have done or had done stuff like that to new help so they could be provided with a “teachable moment.”

          • kyoufuu

            My father-in-law tells me a story of his father’s butcher shop. They hired this girl once, who wasn’t very strong when it comes to math, especially making change. So one day, as they’re closing the store and checking the register, they find that there isn’t a single dime left in the drawer. And I don’t mean there was no money left; rather, all the dimes were gone. She couldn’t figure out how to use other coinage (i.e. quarters) to dispense change, so she went with what was easy to count.

            Of course, this was probably at least forty years ago, so the problem isn’t endemic to today’s youth.

          • monstermom

            Not what they think is best. The school districts, especially with math and science, select a program and the teachers teach that program. The NCTM (National Council for the Teachers of Mathematics) advocates calculator use starting in Kindergarten. Teachers who fail to follow the proscribed program jeopardize their careers.

            Teachers are trained in ed schools that the program that forced dependence on calculators are the best programs – that learning to perform mathematics operations the old fashioned way undermines understanding (I’m not joking). These programs are funded by the NSF (with our tax dollars), the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and Exxon Mobile.

            It’s an onion with layers upon layers and it stinks.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Every single Republican candidate should have this at the top of their issues platform. People care about the education their children receive. Unfortunately, the message isn’t getting out there like it should.

        • Flagstaff

          Calculators should come in where slide rules used to be brought into the classroom, AFTER the fundamentals of slide rules are taught. The calculator can then replace the slide rule.

          In my day, that was Plane Geometry or Algebra II, 10th or 11th grade. That stuff is taught earlier now.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            You can teach logs in much more useful ways than in the use of a precision instrument that hardly anybody makes anymore and costs way too much to buy versus a calculator.

            But that’s really a good line to draw otherwise.

          • wardjh

            I ran a movie theater and hired high school students to work in the concessions stand. Most could not make change. Some used a pencil and paper, some used a calculator and some just guessed. I had to teach them the “count back” method for making change and as many tricks as possible to do addition mentally.

            I asked the high school math teacher if he ever taught these skills to his students and to my surprise not only didn’t he teach them, he couldn’t do them. So we put together a class that used the items from the concession stand with a classroom and it became a standard class for the high school.

            This not only solved my problem with concession stand short fall as well as other retailers in town but also improved the take from the high school concession stand run during football and basket ball games.

            No calculators were used in the exercise.

          • muffin

            the computer gurus had to invent programs to show the cashiers how much change to return. wardjh, I commend you for coming up with a program to help these students.

            Most young adults don’t know how to balance a checkbook, much less how to make a budget. We taught our kids how to handle money – two listened, one didn’t. Guess which one got into money problems and is still incurring debt? He’s working two jobs now, too bad, so sad. No help from us because the debt was incurred by purchasing more and more THINGS. If it had been an emergency, we would have been there with ALL our support.

  • RedBeard

    Computer literacy should be taught, but as a separate subject. Computers should never be allowed to function as crutches in the classroom.

    Long division, longhand, and Longfellow are not obsolete, they’re just ignored by “educators” who are obsessed with doing things differently than in the past without regard for the Stupid Quotient that results from their failed experiments.

  • Order and Chaos

    Due to our becoming a technological-based society, comuters and electronics are becoming a habit of life for a lot of people. In 30 years or so, I would bet that any curriculum in school would be on the computer. That is how technologically advanced we have become.

    • khayos

      This article seems to me to be a generational issue. My six year old (and his peers) is adept and handling multiple points of information. I think the “ADD” society is here to stay and removing our kids from it, I feel, will just cause them to have real adjustment problems as they meet milestones in later life — high school, college, first job, etc.

    • Achance

      grammar, orthography, and systax and you would have written “technology-based” or “techologically-based” society. Too bad RedState doesn’t have a spelling and grammar checker built in.

      I held out for not installing a spelling checker on my State’s online job application system for a long as I could because having to write without benefit of a spelling and grammar checker told you so much about an applicant.

      • Order and Chaos

        was in a bit of a hurry, Achance, so you will have to forgive me for not being
        “careful” with my spelling.

        Besides, I would agree about the spelling and grammar being vital. Problem is, I have not applied to your place of work. If I did, I would obviously be much more careful.

      • Richard Mullins

        they could install the After the Deadline wordpress plugin. That would take care of spelling and grammar.

      • red_oakster

        The main problem is mediocre teachers, themselves poorly educated. Twenty years ago Thomas Sowell chronicled the intellectual decline of those entering the teaching profession. And things have declined further since then. These mediocre teachers tend to use technology as one might expect-poorly.

        That said, there are some fabulous innovations in teaching that have been enabled by technology. Homeschoolers all over the country are using them. So are a select number of private and public schools. Indeed these innovations are becoming so numerous that in a matter of years all kinds of private organizations (especially churches) probably will use these new technological capabilities to attract thousands if not millions of students away from the public schools.

        If you want to find out more this subject, Terry Moe from the Hoover Institution and Clayton Christensen from Harvard Business School are worth checking out. Disruptive technologies are going to kill the public school monopoly.

      • zroxx

        And can you direct us to a private or charter school that teaches it?

        • Achance
          • zroxx

            Probably the “old fashioned” version thereof…

            Kidding aside, I extend your sentiment re: spelling and grammar checking on RedState and echo my cry to bring back preview of comments prior to posting them. Not going to eliminate all mistakes (including my own) but is still a sorely missed feature here.

  • Ausonius

    As a teacher with nearly 40 years behind me, allow me to say that education remains best when it is simplest: America has let itself become Ameri-duh through experimentation in classrooms, letting technology – which MUST be good because it is…technology! – wag the dog, and letting bureaucrats and unions ossify any idea which would really improve the schools, like eliminating bureaucrats and unions.

    Computers are very nice typewriters, and can be a catalyst for learning, but it all depends on the person at the keyboard. They are certainly not a necessity nor a panacea.

    • acat

      I agree that kids need to be taught to think. Critical thinking and logic are very important to our future as a country, and sadly, the two topics that teachers themselves are least likely to understand. (else why would they not ask questions when these “experiments” come along?)

      I disagree regarding technology in the classroom. A computer is a lot more than a typewriter, and by the time the average suburbanite kid is in middle school, he or she will be more familiar with multitasking and handling a computer interface than any prior generation.

      It is just as impossible to ban technology from education as it is to ban cheating. In your 40 years, how well has that worked? There are a couple better approaches, but they require teachers (and more accurately, principals and administrators) to hire people who understand the technology – not just what I’ve seen, the lowest contract bidder or the administrators’ golf buddy who know how to put a cable into a port – to set things up.

      Technology is our edge as a country – taking the theoretical and making it real, taking one technology and trying something new with it. Have you noticed that some eggs now come with markings on them? That’s done with some variant of an inkjet printer. Some bright kid saw a need and built an application and probably, as with most new ideas, broke a few eggs along the way.

      Also, there is nothing wrong with a kid who can track multiple sensory inputs at the same time. It’s not what everyone in the previous generation did, but you can bet the average Army lieutenant in combat tracks multiple inputs as a matter of life and death for everyone involved.

      In summary, rather than trying to fit kids who, like it or not, will be raised on high tech gadgetry, into an Eisenhower-era model, perhaps we should work on changing the model.

      Mew

      • Ausonius

        And re-read what I wrote above: “…can be a catalyst…” Of course, in the right hands, a computer can be ancillary. In the wrong hands, only a distraction.

        Grade-school and even some high-school computer classes – in my experience – are not particularly valuable. In some cases, the kids already know the curriculum! :)

        Plus, recall that the kids need to walk before they run! There is not much skill needed in surfing the Internet, and before they can program a computer, it helps to know basic mathematics and the grammar of a language!

        I do not want to turn the clock back to the 50′s: but there are times when the gadgets just do not matter, depending on the subject, and in some cases the bells and whistles are just distractions.

  • maj28

    I completely agree. I’m a second-year law student, and in classes where I am allowed to use my laptop I spend the entire time on the internet instead of paying attention. The problem is compounded by g-chat because we have group chats of 15 people, all of whom are in the class at the time and are talking to each other and not listening to the professor. (Makes life much easier when you get cold-called and have no idea how to answer though! 15 people feeding you information so you don’t look like an idiot.) When professors force the class to close the laptops and take notes by hand, we certainly complain but can’t deny that we are more tuned into the class.

  • sgtbooraem

    I teach computer skills to kids from Kindergarten through 8th grade, and there are some technical skills the kids do need to learn at an earlier age today.

    Typing is the biggest one. I’ve found that by sixth grade, if they text message or IM at home, they’ve already learned bad habits about typing, and it’s very difficult to get them to learn touch-typing.

    However, I do agree that there is entirely too much focus on internet access and computer use, by and large. At our school, the kids have computer class once a week, and while they have a computer in each classroom, those are mostly for the teachers to use for email, and for the students to use for Accelerated Reader testing. Public schools, with three computers in each classroom, starting at kindergarten, are going much too far, in my opinion.

    I completely agree that our schools should be teaching students to be quiet and focus on a single task at a time, rather than allowing them to “multi-fail,” just because technology is so popular.

    One reason I’m so staunchly opposed to the level of technoligization that takes place in the public schools is the amount of expense incurred to maintain, upgrade, and support these devices. A “Smart Board” in every classroom requires a projector, and pretty much needs a dedicated laptop. So you probably need to have a wireless infrastructure in addition to your wired ethernet. And of course we have to have an extra computer in the classroom for the kids to use, so that’s three computers already (1 for the teacher, I’m okay with that, 1 for the smart board, which I think is a gimmick, despite the fact that teachers like them, and 1 for the students to mess with).

    In South Carolina, they’re talking about cutting out the last five days of the school year, in order to save $100 million. They should also cut out the program that was implemented at a few bellweather schools that provided each high school freshman with their very own laptop to take home and use for the entire school year. The wireless infrastructure overload that resulted was amusing in it’s predictability, but sad in the amount of long-term cost that it added to each schools budget.

    Education is an area where conservatives really need to find their voices and be willing to be the party of “No.”

    • Warrior

      I been yellin’ ’bout publick edumaksiun fo’ yeahs now.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    They are neither good nor evil. Properly used, they can enhance education. Improperly used, they can be a detriment to it.

    Many studies have also shown that not everyone learns the same way. Some are visual learners. Others are auditory. Some study best in complete silence, while others need some sort of auditory stimulation to concentrate.

    I would be opposed to unplugging, but would be in favor of limiting computer use to where it makes sense, and eliminating it where it is a hindrance.

    • SoulEspresso

      I can appreciate the desire to teach students linear thinking and build attention spans rather than cater to technological fads.

      But barring the collapse of civilization, tech is here to stay. Just because teachers didn’t grow up with it doesn’t mean they are not obligated to learn how to use it in the classroom in a way that enhances the basics. Raising educational standards is not equal to eliminating computers.

      Did educators in past centuries dump on newfangled inventions like paper (over clay tablets), the codex (over scrolls), or the printing press (over copying everything letter by letter) just because they made processing and accessing information easier? Come on.

    • Order and Chaos

      I would favor limiting computer use, but not doing away with it completely.

      • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
    • monstermom

      Look at total language and fuzzy math. The arguments behind them are sound – that children should be taught to understand language in its full context as opposed to disparate sounds or that children who understand what mathematical operations do can more effectively perform those operations.

      Unfortunately integrating those ideas into the curriculum in education means we teach nothing but total language or constructivism and eliminate phonics and computational fluency. In education it’s all or nothing.

      • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

        Your problem is with teachers, and their failed methods.

        The solution isn’t to remove the computers, the solution is to remove the teachers and administrators that are doing it wrong and replace them with ones that will do it right.

        • monstermom

          Where firing virtually the entire education establishment isn’t going to happen. Especially when the establishment is accountable to the state (and feds) and not parents.

          My solution would be to support school choice and give parents the power to vote with their feet. Allow parents who are dissatisfied with how their schools are integrating technology and adopting crummy instructional programs the ability to take their kids and their money and go elsewhere.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            1. School Choice.
            2. Charter Schools.
            3. Tax Credits for Private School tuition.

            My community already has 1 & 2. I’d love to see #3 soon.

          • acat

            … some sort of standardization and qualification for the tech used in schools. This is the kind of thing I would expect the Department of Education to do .. were I a starry-eyed idealist.

            As it is, yeah, charter and private schools will get it right first, public schools won’t, until parents start demanding better approaches.

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            What works in Fort Collins, Colorado won’t necessarily work in Los Angeles, California or Atlanta, Georgia. As for the Department of Education, it needs to cease to exist. The States can handle compliance testing. Let the local school district determine how their students get an education that passes compliance.

          • acat

            You want to get rid of the Department of Education. So do I.

            You want to see teachers writing the lesson plans for the individual children in their classrooms. So do I.

            I have no problem with states handling compliance, so long as an education in Arkansas is as good as (or, likely, better than) an education in Massachusetts or D.C.

            Funny thing about compliance, it means that Sophomore Biology is likely taught using the same or similar textbooks in all 50 states because the hard facts in Bio don’t tend to change.

            The same is true for computers. A bit is a bit, a byte is a byte, and an ethernet seven-layer-stack are all the same. MS-Word doesn’t work any differently in Alabama than it does in California, although in the latter you’re more likely to find the Spanish-language version.

            What’s wrong with integrating technology in a standardized way that’s not wrong with teaching Bio in a standardized way?

            Sounds to me like the problem is really with the vast under-training of teachers we’ve seen over the last 60 years.

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            If it sucks in our state, move to another state where it’s better. Competition will raise the quality of education for ALL states. Federal standardization will dumb them all down.

          • acat

            Education is a good motivation to move around. Moving from the city to the suburbs to get “good schools” is almost an American tradition, after all.

            The caveat is that if a high school diploma from school district X doesn’t mean the same thing as one from school district Y, then employers will continue the trend of testing potential hires, confirming that they meet certain minimum education standards.

            I don’t have a problem with the latter approach, but I’m sure I can name a few race hustlers who will.

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            to tell me which schools provide a better education. I can get that information from the private sector, and can trust that information to be accurate because if it consistently isn’t, thhe company I received the information from is out of business.

            That’s not true if the government tells me. They have a completely different agenda.

            Free market capitalism works every time it’s tried. This is no less true in the education market than any other.

          • acat

            There is no free market capitalism available for education in most of the country, and even if there were a demand for the product (charter schools or private schools, let’s say) there aren’t necessarily the resources to create them.

            I find it somewhat funny that, as a businessman, you are happy to accept an additional cost to hiring (use of headhunters to pre-screen candidates for larger companies, spending a lot more time interviewing, using internships, etc. for small companies) rather than trying to improve the pool of candidates available through any means necessary.

            Yes, capitalism would fix the educational market .. but it will not do so overnight, nor will it do so in time for the current middle school students who have, thus far, been mal-educated. I’m not saying to keep the current broken system – I am saying to account for it when talking about the replacement.

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            The waiting list for admissions to ourCharter schools in Fort Collins is very long. Trust me, the demand is there. The resistance is there too. Boulder Valley School District fought against charter schools for the past two years. What’s most interesting about this is, first, there are no charter schools within their district boundaries, and second, they spent over $200K (with huge budget shortfalls forecast) to fight it all the way to our state’s Supreme Court, where they ultimately lost. Liberals will stop at nothing to prevent choice when it comes to education.

            As for how long it will take, I’m not sure how long you think it takes to create Charter Schools, but historically in this city it’s taken about a year to start up a new one. From the start students at these schools typically score well within the top 10% of all students statewide.

            I don’t agree we mostly agree. Expanding government’s role in education today only means it will take longer to dismantle it tomorrow. Education Choice should be a rallying call for all conservative candidates. It just screams liberty and limited government, and as we just saw in Massachusetts, these principles are what voters are responding to in 2010.

          • acat

            Even if there is demand, there may not be resources.

            Yes, I believe there’s a demand, but starting a school takes resources that I don’t believe all districts have.

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Charter schools are started by families who get together and decide how they want the school to run. The resources are outside the normal channels. After they have a plan, they petition the school board to create the school.

            I’d be really surprised if there weren’t enough families in every school district that would be interested in doing the work to start a charter school if it meant a better education for their kids.

            And I am reading what you write. I just disagree with it.

          • acat

            Not sure how things are in Colorado, but in Illinois, schools are funded by local property taxes. That means the McMansion-suburbs have better resources than the bungalow-burbs or the inner city. Yes, there are a heck of a lot of parents who want charter schools, but .. in a situation where both parents work full time to pay the bills, there are few resources in the family left to get involved in launching a school.

            The school boards are supposed to be under local control, but they’re elected and relatively secure once in place. Again, resources to change the status quo are scarce on the ground. Perhaps your area does things differently, just proving again that “one size does not fit all”, eh?

            Finally, some of the Illinois school districts have closed perfectly good high schools, less than 20 years old, and merged with neighboring districts – bussing students over 30-40 miles – because they cannot afford to keep them open. You appear to be claiming that resources to open a charter high school – if the parents in these areas want it – will become available. I do not think that you are understanding the situation on the ground here.

            Now, back to the original topic – tech in the classroom.

            Teachers are not necessarily any better trained in how to use technology than Joe Citizen. Administration is frequently worse because it skews older – a career in education can start in the classroom, shift to administration, and by the time a person obtains a level where decisions about technology can be made, they’re closing in on retirement. Please tell me if I’m wrong on any of this.

            The problem this causes is that there’s no consistent program of how to use technology in schools. There’s a (false) hope that the schools can keep the kids from watching inappropriate materials, but … while a class may get taught how to use MS-Word, their other teachers (English, Science, History) may or may not be equipped to provide coaching on it as the students use it to do homework.

            Your answer to this appears to be to let school districts that choose not to try to integrate technology off the hook – but then you say you’ll cherry-pick graduates who have the skills you need. Some of which include using a computer.

            Am I understanding your position?

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            And I’ll just leave it at that.

          • monstermom

            Much much much bigger. With the common core standards initiative establishing national K-12 standards and assessments for math, English, Science, and History, and every state except Alaska and Texas fully supporting it, the US Dept Of Ed’s role and influence will increase 10 fold.

          • aesthete

            calculator from any computer or server; same with disabling spellcheck in Microsoft Word, Firefox, etc. Blocking harmful/distracting websites is similarly simple; K-9 Web Protection and others exist for that very purpose. The question is, will the public school system in the aggregate use this technology well? Probably not, but that doesn’t mean that we should diss computers anymore than we should blame free markets for prostitution; both the free market and computers are tools that can be used to further bad ends, not bad things in and of themselves.

          • acat

            Ever heard of pimpmyip.com?

            The kids in the classroom have.

            Using tech to block tech does not necessarily work – at least not as a drop-in insta-silver-bullet. That’s why the entire Digital Rights Management model is inherently doomed to fail – in the end, whatever is protected has to get to the end users’ senses. Catch it at that point, and all the DRM in the world is useless.

            There are ways to use tech to block tech, but it depends on vigilance on the part of those doing the blocking – and that makes it much more expensive.

            Mew

            Mew

          • aesthete

            still, such solutions are out there, and they work well enough for the K-6 crowd. Vigilance is important, but I don’t see how it’s much different from making sure that students don’t cheat on their exams, and such.

          • acat

            Let’s look at it, shall we?

            Students taking an exam are isolated from the outside world in a closed room.

            They are seated separately, their desks are cleared of all non-exam-related materials.

            One or more proctors (or teachers) observe the class, looking for signs of note-passing, communicating, shoulder-surfing.

            Yes, you can do this with students with computers, but it will take the same level of isolation, only now instead of monitoring physical objects, we also need to monitor wireless communications.

            Is Tony’s laptop trying to access a wifi network? Is Janie’s MacBook using her iPhone as a gateway? Are Veronica and Linda sharing files via peer-to-peer or bluetooth? Is George surfing the web on his dad’s old blackberry? Are teachers prepared to keep up with this? Note – I’ve left out texting, for the most part. Teachers should be able to confiscate cell phones (and iPod and related devices) during exams easily enough.

            Also, the level of external access will likely change day to day. How do we determine what’s to be allowed, and how do we adjust either 20-some-odd devices including laptops and smart phones from every possible vendor and at every possible version, or do we build classrooms with individualized faraday cages around each desk?

            This is not a simple problem, banning computers is not the answer, and simply saying “there are solutions” is ducking the question.

            Mew

        • kyoufuu
        • nessa

          …that will allow the firing of incompetent teachers and proselytizers. As it is now once they’re tenured they are untouchable and many go on the ROAD program, Retired On Active Duty. To let the Unions destroy American industry and our economy is one thing, it’s something of a far worse degree to allow them to destroy the education of our children.

          • Achance

            And that’s the real problem. Frankly, any labor relations professional scoffs at NEA’s collective bargaining and contract administration skills. I’ve done terrible things to them just because I could. The reason incompetent teachers don’t get fired are manifold. First, they don’t really get supervised. They get observed and evaluated by someone who may or may not be a competent supervisor when they’re doing their student teaching. Then they get some observation and evaluation during the one to three (usually) year probationary period before they get tenured. After that, they may see a teacher-in-charge or the Principal once or twice a year. They have no measurable performance standards other than spouting from an approved lesson plan that conforms to the curriculm. They cannot be held accountable for outcomes because they have no control over the student’s willingness to learn – or so they say. Really, the probationary period is all about whether or not the new teacher “fits in.” Once the new teacher is accepted by the group, they are tenured and pretty much can do no wrong.

            It is no harder to fire a teacher for misconduct than any other public employee except in most states teachers get two bites at the apple, grievance/arbitration or administrative review and if they don’t like the outcome they can go to court pretty much de novo. It is a burden, but certainly not an insurmountable one.

            The real reason unsatisfactory teachers don’t get fired is that the NEA or AFT, but especially NEA, owns the School Board, the School Board owns the Superintendent, and the Superintendent owns the Principal. If Principal Brown starts making threatening gestures towards NEA Member Smith, NEA’s Uniserve Representative (yeah, that’s what they call goons in the NEA) calls Principal Brown and says, “Now don’t make me have to call Superintendent Jones.” That’s usually enough to disuade Principal Brown unles the offense involves sex, drugs, or violence. If Principal Brown isn’t dissuaded by that call, then the NEA Rep calls Superintendent Jones and says, “Now don’t make me start calling Board members.” That will almost always do it. But if it doesn’t then somebody higher up in NEA starts calling Board members and reminding them that NEA put them on the Board and can take them off. That almost certainly does it.

    • Xasteius

      Most of my classes were taken in teleconference mode: the teacher was in another city, but instructing two classrooms in different cities (3 if you count the national laboratory) full of students via near-real time video.

      Calculators were banned in my statistics class, but we never needed them on the test; knowledge of concepts was tested instead of formula testing (a smart move IMHO because any person can punch in numbers and spit out an answer).

      • acat

        I’ve got this old (Truman-era) encyclopedia that I keep around because sometimes its’ answers are amusing. It lists “calculator” as “the person or team of people who perform mathematical calculations, for example as part of determining firing ranges for artillery”. Calculator as a job description, eh?

        What I’m saying here is that we need to teach kids to think. They need to know what mathematical principles to apply, and they need to have enough experience doing the calculations by hand that they can tell if their answers are close to what they ought to get.

        Teaching kids to think. What a concept!

        Mew

        • nessa

          He’s the one responsible for putting the rounds where the observer wants them, when he wants them there. Steel On Target. A good “smoke” is a treasure, especially if you’re talking about firing on a target 30 km away, one degree off in the calculations is 530 meters at the target, the observer is usually well inside that range. A good Chief Smoke will help you avoid two of Murphy’s Laws, “Incoming fire has the right of way” and “Friendly fire isn’t.” LOL.

          • acat

            I am now more educated.

            Chief Smoke.

            Thank you.

            Mew

          • nessa
    • aesthete

      There are ways to make computers work in education, and having experienced both distance-based education and the traditional “shut up and listen” type, I can tell you that the dynamism of distance-based education, as well as the impressive array of media formats available to teachers of such a course, are more gain than pain for many students (including myself). I would definitely uninstall calculators and disable spellcheck for at least K-9 education, and would install a filter to block time-wasting sites, but

      It’s still a waste of money to spend on “modernizing” the defunct public school system, but not because of the inherent dangers of technology (which are mitigable), but because technology isn’t worth a ruble without competent use of said tech (which I doubt public schools are capable of doing).

    • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

      That’s the main problem with computers in schools, other than the absurdly high cost.

      Instead of spending all that money on WIFI and computers, how about we spend a lot less money getting a truthful history text into the hands of students instead of that Howard Zinn trash they are getting now? And getting rid of fuzzy math and any basic reading texts that don’t include phonics. And reading texts that use stupid diacriticals to diagram every freaking word and sentence in a bizarre way that adds absolutely nothing to students’ understanding of how to speak Standard English.

      Speaking of Standard English, how about reintroducing that idea as a goal? How about English Language immersion for ESL students instead of ghettoizing them in bilingual classrooms that never even use English?

      How about getting rid of marxist categories like “social studies” and “health education” and replacing them with useful topics like “history,” “civics,” “biology,” “cooking,” “basic clerical skills,” and “morals”?

      If computers can help in that curriculum, then fine. If computers just break the budget while allowing the NEA and Dept. of Education to dumb down the kids even more, then get rid of them.

      • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

        How old was Farragut when he first commanded an enemy ship captured in war?

        The answer is that he joined the US Navy at the age of 10, and at the age of 12 was given command of a captured enemy boat and the crew to man it.

        How old was George Washington when he went to work as a surveyor and began to assemble the fortune that would allow him to learn how to be the American colonies’ best native general? He was 14. He was wealthy by age 18. Most of his peers who went to higher education finished their doctorates before they were 20. The average age of matriculation at Princeton back in those days was 13-14.

        And what do we allow 13 and 14 year-olds to do? Nothing. They can’t work, drive, own property, or even stay out of school. We imprison them in schools for eight hours a day where they learn so many things that just are not true. After it’s all done they either have to unlearn these politically correct lies, or they are numbskulled zombies for the rest of their lives. Why do we do this to kids?

        Why?

        Education is the biggest conservative issue we have. Period.

        And clearly, the current system has failed at all levels. It needs to be thrown out and rebuilt from the ground up, starting where homeschooling is now.

        • nessa
  • zaxour

    This issue actually resonates with me since it kind of describes my middle school and high school years. I think when kids spend way too much time at the computer it does tend to erode their “real” lives. When I was a sophomore in High School, I got a failing grade in my English class because I spent way too much time playing an online computer game. In my computer science class, they upgraded the computers such that they could use the internet; it was a huge distraction that I gladly indulged at the time. Looking back, I feel lucky that I was able to “overcome” those and I’m now a senior electrical engineer major on the Dean’s list in college. But, it is still hard to concentrate on class with an internet-connected computer in front of me.

  • http://nanosecondinv.proboards.com/index.cgi? irondiopriest

    I think that having Internet access and a computer on every desk does absolutely nothing positive toward teaching kids how to read, write, do arithmetic, learn science, social studies, etc.

    There is a tangible as well as an intangible aesthetic value to holding a book, navigating through it, and learning from it. Almost everything a kid needs to learn academically about the world around him can be accessed through books, and the love of books is learned, not inherent. We should always foster that.

    I do think that teaching kids to type early is a valuable skill that is necessary for this generation, and should not go ignored.

    I also think that high school kids need to start learning about computer technology, and gain some hands-on experience with this complicated and useful tool that most certainly will be an integral part of their lives.

    I also think that having the world’s information literally at your fingertips is a powerful tool that can enhance the educational experience, simply by providing information quickly. High school kids should have some access to that font of knowledge. However the notion that every kid needs a Mac Pro on his desk at school is ludicrous. Having an adequate number of computers in a school to serve the students’ needs is sufficient.

  • Repair_Man_Jack

    Computers can be an impressive tool. Powerpoint can be a great instructional aide. However, fancy slides and wiz-bang technology can’t pinch-hit for a qualified instructor. The fundamentals must be taught. However, we’d be idiots not to realize that the computers can make that instruction easier and more effective.

    • Ausonius

      in the last two years by competing against high-school and college students on national examinations. 20 Gold Medals were earned in the last two years.

      We are one of only about a dozen grade schools participating, since Latin is rarely found on the grade-school level. (It is a Catholic school.)

      The point is: I have no television, no DVD player, no Smart Board, and no computer. I do NOT show Ben-Hur, Quo Vadis, Spartacus, The Fall of the Roman Empire, or its remake Gladiator. My students do NOT make sugar-cube models of the Coliseum or have toga banquets. :)

      They learn Latin, nonetheless, and have quite a bit of fun doing so.

      I have a white board, a black board, an overhead projector, and a stereo system. They are used fairly often.

      Kids do not need to have a school teach them how to surf the Internet: nobody taught them how to watch television! :)

      If you want to teach them basic programming on the high-school level, fine.

      But lack of attention, plagiarism, complaints of boredom, etc. are all gifts in the Pandora’s box of “free” laptops or “a computer on every desk in every classroom.”

      • Richard Mullins

        what happened to teachers that really taught and got the attention of their students? Really, because it seems to going away quickly. I can remember some of my teachers over the years including one that jump on the table. I heard it but I couldn’t believe it until I got into his class. I wonder if East Central High School still has him around. Anyways, using the ole brain seems to be non-existent these days.

      • acat

        There’s two key data points in your tale. Grade school, and Catholic. You and your students are out of the norm to begin with, though I’d give my remaining incisor (and a few molars) to see y’all become the new norm.

        School administrations, for the most part, are blind to technology in general, and teachers, especially the younger ones who are more familiar with technology, aren’t given either the time and latitude to find their voices, or the guidance to make sure they’re using tech wisely.

        By the way, it’s not just “programming”, there’s also the whole idea of a “suite of office programs”, i.e. a word processor that’s rather useful for writing papers, a spreadsheet that would make any 18th century accountant drool, and so on. Some basic knowledge of these is pretty much assumed in a number of career paths.

        I did the “some programming in high school”, and I would rather not tell you just how far back that was. I will say Reagan was in the White House when I got out…and that I taught the teacher a few tricks.

        Mew

      • Read Chesterton in New Improved Jersey

        As the technology chair of our school board strategic planning committee (K8 Catholic school) I lost four committee members the first night by suggesting we needed less classroom technology, not more. It had been assumed that, being a EE, I would tow the “kids need laptops” party line. As I gently and politely moved the agenda away from more classroom laptops and towards improving the school website interface and report card software, I ended up a committee of one. A lot of work, but quite a satisfactory experience.

        Oh but for a Latin class. The soccer moms shrieked to the PTA for a Spanish class “so their kids wouldn’t fall behind the public school kids” and got it immediately. Diversity and all, you know.

    • Achance

      about one of the early joint exercises between former USSR and NATO/US troops. A Russian general is said to have remarked that he would have his tanks on the English Channel before the Americans finished their PowerPoint presentations.

      I’m a former bureaucrat so I give good PowerPoint. Most of it fell squarely into the baffle them with BS category, but I can do stuff like organize a whole case-in-chief and a predicted rebuttal case in PP complete with electronic versions of all the exhibits. I can even embed sound and animation. I particularly like embedding interviews and speeches by politicians that don’t reflect their current position. Had a lot of fun doing that a couple of years ago when I represented the State’s supervisors in interest arbitration against the Palin Administration. That was made all the more fun by the fact that the State was represented by a couple of my former subordinates who had never actually seen me do a hearing. They were a bit unprepared, but I digress.

      Anyway, PP is a useful tool but most of the stuff done in it probably shouldn’t be done at all and it is usually done to put some glitz and glamor on an otherwise substandard product. It is particularly problematic when used as a briefing tool for decision-makers. Political decision-makers are bad enough about being superficial and thinking in bullet points and sound bites under the best of circumstances, but they really should have access to the underlying information. When I was forced to do a PP briefing, I always did it in the short answer-long answer-analysis form with the PP being the short answer. Whether they read the whole supporting memo wasn’t my problem but it did give me the right to say “I warned you about that on page 8.”

      • Ausonius

        Achance: you have proven one of Neil Postman’s most on-target criticisms of television and mass media.

        The technology draws attention to itself, and can limit the freedom of expression and thought. A movie version of e.g. “War and Peace”, even the excellent Russian version lasting 8 hours, can still not be on the same ideational level as the novel.

        One of Postman’s main points was that the universal criticism of television – that it functions on the level of a 12 year old – misses the mark: television can do nothing else but function on the level of a 12 year old!

        Being able to read a book takes years of training and memorization, and being able to read and write well means being able to think well. If America’s discourse is worse than ever, and if America’s thinking is not as logical or perspicacious as before, we might fault the sound-bite method of delivering information and political stances.

        An analysis of the televised debates of Gore vs. W. Bush showed that their language and sentence structure were no more difficult than late grade school. In contrast, the Lincoln-Douglas debates – spoken before Illinois bumpkins – used college-level language.

        • FortitudineVincimus

          I picked up Neil Postman’s “Amusing Ourselves To Death” while browsing a bookstore before Christmas. I enjoyed his development of the “epistimology” of media – from smoke signals to television. My favorite part were his chapters on “Typographic America” and “The Typographic Mind.” I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in the nature of the information each type of media carries, how we aquire knowledge from each, and the logical outworkings of its consumption. Fascinating!

    • Dan McLaughlin

      That’s computers in the teacher’s hands. Different issue.

  • Achance

    household computer ownership is close to 100%, most with broadband internet. When my stepkids were in HS, they each had a networked computer at home with cable-modem internet. I knew better but they were already ruined by TV before I ever met them, so you go with the flow. They can all read well because I taught them at the dining table using McGuffy’s Readers. I gave up on trying to teach them much of anything by the time they were in high school because I got tired of hearing how dumb I was. None of them can write well and the middle daughter is the only one that can reliably write a decent paragraph. The oldest boy has a college degree and his writing is very, very colloquial and he doesn’t know how to write any other way.

    When the oldest was a senior in HS, he had to write a paper on the Baake Decision for his Government class. I could write a whole diary on why that is a stupid assignment for a high school senior, but that isn’t the point here. He’d left his paper on the printer and I read it. It was pretty much entirely cut and paste from the internet and he had hardly even bothered to write his own transitions from one copied article to another. Nobody had asked me for help and I knew that neither he nor his mother would appreciate my pointing out that he should get an F and be disciplined for the plagiarism. I fully expected that we’d get the usual rant about how stupid and unfair the failing grade was. And what happened? He got a smiley face and and an A with a nice note about his good use of technology. You can’t fix stupid!

    • SoulEspresso

      … or lazy teachers?

      In her online college work Mrs. Espresso has caught other students plagiarizing more than once–it’s not hard to figure out if you take, I dunno, 2 seconds with Google (depending on your connection speed I guess).

      • Achance

        They’re tools, just a more sophisticated hammer. But to use a hammer, you really ought to know something about building a structure. At the K-12 level of knowledge, I believe that kids should be taught to actually know stuff rather than be taught how to find stuff and how to get a machine to do stuff. My kids were not taught to read, comprehend, and remember the information in a chapter in their text books, they were taught to find information in a chapter in their textbooks the same way they searched for stuff on the internet. I actually had one of the teachers tell me that she didn’t think that a knowledge of facts was important “because facts change.” Sorry lady, but if they’re actually facts, they don’t change. but that represents a fundamental difference in the understanding of life, doesn’t it? Welcome to post-modernism.

        I found that I couldn’t have a worthwhile conversation with my younger subordinates in the last years of my career because they simply didn’t know anything except popular culture, sports, and movies. You could give them an assignment to go research something and give you a memo on it and they could do a pretty good job of it, but they would know nothing of the why of it and they had little curiosity about the whys of things and the context of things.

        • SoulEspresso

          The hard way is regular engagement with existing culture over the next hundred years by conservatives–since that’s what the “progressives” have done.

          The harder way is letting the Administration cause civilizational collapse so we have to rebuild from the ground up.

    • aesthete

      are oftentimes less educated and disciplined than students. It still astounds me that my mother ( a first-generation Puerto Rican with little formal education in English) was able to educate my sister and me better than most of my current peers in college apparently were in syntax, writing style, etc. That realization was about the time when I started to truly loathe government “education”.

  • http://www.evanweeks.com EvanWeeks

    Unless things have changed drastically since I graduated High School over a decade ago, there is virtually no pressure to teach the classics in schools today. And no, I don’t consider 1984 a classic. I actually had to explore Greek and early church literature on my own, outside of school. By the time I started college seriously, this last year (yes, I know, I spent six years in the military and only JUST got around to that whole degree thing), I’m so woefully OVER-prepared it’s almost embarrassing. My instructors seemed mystified that I would have actually read Aristotle’s Rhetoric, or the classical dialogue between Socrates and Plato in the Republic. When I suggested that the prose-ification of the great Greek epics was a violence done to that ancient culture, I was brushed off as old-fashioned.

    Bring back the classics. Bring back teaching the Church fathers as well. How the heck are kids going to learn critical thinking skills from modern literature??

    • SoulEspresso

      It’s current events–or trying to be.

      55555.

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      Because everyone knows that nobody’s written anything worthwhile in the last 300 or so years.

      While the quantity of garbage out there has certainly increased, that doesn’t mean that nothing of value has been written in the past 100 years.

      • aesthete

        Most contemporary books used in public schools are so much drivel; Rigoberta Menchu’s screed was one of the better ones that I read. So to extend the hymn analogy, public schools ignore Michael Card in favor of Hannah Montana.

        • Achance

          it to one from today. First, they’ve eliminated good-sized chunks of the classical Western canon and they’ve scoured the dregs of the Earth to find “literature” from diverse authors. You’ll find there’s a reason you’ve never heard of them!

          When I was in exile a few years back, I took a bunch of classes at the U here, the modern version of closetting yourself in a monastery when you got crossways with the King. One of the classes I took was the sophomore Literature survey class since it had been a long time since I’d read much “serious” literature. We used Norton’s but other than the newly dredged up PC stuff, we covered absolutely nothing that I hadn’t read by high school and I and a couple of other older students were the only ones that had ever read ANY of it. Only I and one other had ever read any of Canterbury Tales – and I had to memorize and recite the prelude in what passed for Middle English in The South when I was a junior in high school. I don’t think my stepkids ever had to memorize anything and they certainly never had to recite anything because that might have damaged their self-esteem if someone else had done it better.

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          I’m taking a humanities class and we’re using Joseph Campbell’s “The Power of Myth”. It’s pure crap.

          Doesn’t mean there aren’t good books written recently, and it doesn’t mean bad ones weren’t written more than 100 years ago.

          The date on the thing has nothing to do with it, really. Students should be reading works from as many different times as possible, but hopefully the stuff that actually educates, rather than indoctrinates.

          • aesthete

            My African American lit class, absurdly enough, had us read the lyrics of 2Pac and Biggie Smalls rap songs, but excluded Frederick Douglass and Malcolm X’s speeches. Talk about an illuminating experience.

            Yeah, I agree that there are good contemporary books, but having kids read the “classics” is preferable to me, largely because they have withstood the test of time, and have proven to be of use to people other than pedantic academics and ideologues. Even liberal authors and literature (Tolstoy) is of more value than most of the trash that passes for literature in the humanities and social/ethnic sciences.

      • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

        at least not fully. There’s a wealth of information to be learned from the classics. The more there is a movement away from them the easier it is for people to not understand where we’ve been to know where we’re going.

        I believe there could be a mix and it would serve education well.

        • acat

          Critical thinking.

          Teach how to think first. Then, let the kids read stuff from all eras, and they’ll see the garbage for what it is.

          Mew

          • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

            Kids should spend the years memorizing true things when they are great at memorizing, arguing using the facts they already memorized when they are compelled to argue, and finally learning all the skills of rhetoric once they are 14 or so. They should not be forced to memorize falsehoods when they are young and defenseless. This is the most tragic flaw with our current multiculti diversity curricula. Present-day school learning is built on a foundation of lies.

          • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

            but that sounds about right.

            The irony is, teaching things from memory doesn’t happen anymore. I don’t think teaching much of anything happens anymore. I had to teach my grandson math.

    • kyoufuu

      We just don’t know about them because they haven’t been deemed classics.
      Look at a some of the books by Mark Twain or Charles Dickens, two very well known classic authors. They had their own stinkers, but we wouldn’t force kids to read them.

      The quality which makes a book a classic are its themes and ability to reach across time and touch the human spirit, not the year in which is was written.

      • SoulEspresso

        is that the only ones anyone’s heard of are the only ones fit enough to have survived.

        And where their perspectives are wrong, it’s relatively easy to spot.

      • http://www.evanweeks.com EvanWeeks

        I think there’s some misunderstanding as to what I call “classics.” I should have known better to not define what I’m talking about.

        A classic should require the reader to place themselves in both historical and cultural context and seek to draw the author’s original intent out of the work through careful grammatical and logical analysis, something called exegesis. A work whose cultural or historical context is too close to us does not require us to stretch those mental muscles nearly so much. If a work intended for study as a classic has as its primary purpose entertainment, it needs to be sufficiently removed from the context of our lives in order to be of any real value as a literary exercise.

        Teaching kids to read critically by taking themselves out of their current context and learning what an author intends to say by simultaneously learning the culture and history of a work of classical literature is the foundation of critical THINKING. If you can’t learn to read carefully when the literature REQUIRES you do so (and thus, in my opinion, is much easier to do so), as in the case of these classics, how can you be expected to when the literature is much closer to your current context and the temptation to be lazy and read -into- the work your prejudices is much stronger?

        • kyoufuu

          I can largely agree with most of what you say. My only problem is with the notion that books written primarily for entertainment purposes should not be considered. I disagree for 2 reasons:

          1) It is necessary and vital that kids get some form of enjoyment out of reading, or else it fails to be appealing to them. Plenty of books are classics, but just plain dull (and not, I won’t provide examples! :) . I agree they shouldn’t be reading stuff in school with no depth, but reading drab classics just for the sake of reading drab classics is a surefire way to turn kids off from reading.
          2) I’d have to argue that books we view as classics were, at their time of writing, written with entertainment value in mind. We might not find them fully entertaining today, but that does not change the intent.

    • FortitudineVincimus

      I’ve been on a Founding Fathers reading binge the last couple years. Especially in reading David Mccullough’s “John Adams” I was astounded by the books his son was reading at 14 years of age — books as you say you would rarely find outside a college classroom these days. And not only that, but John Quincy was translating from the original Greek and Latin as well! And I was under the impression that this type of education was common back then. I did more research and discovered that some educators still try to emphasize what they call a “classical” education. Classical education focuses on grammar, rhetoric, and logic. It was generally the main form of education until about 100 years ago. As part of the curriculum they will often begin reading through selection of “The Great Books of the Western World.” For example, from one classical grade school /high school’s website: “In the Logic and Rhetoric phase students read less “textbooks” and more original source documents and literary works, especially in history and literature. The languages of Western Civilization, especially Latin, are at the core of their academic studies.” I kind of which I had attended one of these!

      • Ausonius

        Allow me to translate your moniker for the un-Latinized! :)

        As a Latin teacher (along with Ancient Greek, German, and History) I can verify that education in America has declined as it has thrown away things of virtue and value in favor of trendy experiments designed to seem “cool” and futuristic.

        Remember classrooms without walls? (Why? Did you ever try to teach in such a setting???!!! I have: an absolute disaster, as anyone with an 80I.Q. could have predicted!) How about the “Look and say” method of teaching English, in which English is treated as if it were Chinese, and every word a pictogram needing separate memorization???!!!

        Check out textbooks from a 100 years ago, or even newspapers and popular novels, and you will find writing on a much higher level with a style more elegant (or at least flamboyant) than anything comparable today.

        Again, as Fortitudine Vincimus and I have recommended, check out the books of Neil Postman, especially “Amusing Ourselves To Death” and/or “Technopoly.” He shows how technology changes discourse, and not for the better usually, unless its users are conscious of the limitations.

  • SoulEspresso

    The kids are given assignments and an amount of time to do them in; other than that, they are at computer-free desks.

    I agree with the OP’s intent but it strikes me a little like trying to cure pneumonia by draining all the bad blood from the body.

    School choice is the issue, but I don’t agree that we have to wait for vouchers to make it happen. Since I’m on the board of said school, I know more than I want to about the financial situation of the families involved–and only a few of them “can” afford it.

    What if they threw a public school, and nobody came?

  • sacody

    And, I use two tablets: one to teach with and one to just monitor students on their tablets. They are an endless distraction to students. But, in my case they are not going to go away; so, I try to make the best of the situation and use it to my advantage as much as possible.

  • MtVirtus

    Those here who have argued that the problem is more closely connected to the quality of instruction, and how ineffectively most education schools prepare teachers, are right on. Some have pinned too many hopes to thinking that technology (e.g., smart boards, tutoring software, etc) will solve the problem. Likewise, it’s asking too much to believe that taking away the computers will improve the situation.

    But I’ll grant you this: Change the incentives & structures of the existing system, be an entrepreneur and create such schools (some already exist), and let parents / consumers decide whether it works for them.

    In fact, thoughtful authors like Clayton Christensen and Terry Moe & John Chubb have penned books respectively arguing that online educational technology will provide powerful “disruptive innovation” to our outdated system and that it will undermine the political power of the teachers unions. In fact, virtual schools are growing quickly in many states as a parental option — nowhere more than here in Colorado.

    Expect to see a top-heavy K-12 educational system that employs 1 adult for every 8 students it serves severely shaken up in the near future (when exactly? I’m not smart enough to know). And ironically, I believe the “disruptive innovation” enabled by technology will better empower parents to choose something like the option you describe.

    To EvanWeeks, As much as I love the classics, students and parents won’t take to that in mass numbers. Give parents tuition tax credits to let them choose that sort of privately-operated school or program. But don’t expect our public schools to provide it anywhere beyond the fringes.

    • SoulEspresso

      It’s already happening where I live. If your kids are in a “virtual” public school you have the ability to help them filter what they’re getting.

      What we really need to talk about is a cultural change back to an emphasis on personal responsibility. In this case, if you have kids, you have the responsibility to monitor their education.

  • kyoufuu

    And all tools must be considered for their age appropriateness. We can’t just say, “hey, let’s put a computer on every desk in every school.” That would be foolish and a waste of both time and money.

    Think about it. When young kids are in science class, and they’re learning to take measurements, we don’t first teach them by handing them a set of calipers. They’re given a rule, and then manage to work their way up to more sophisticated tools. But at the same time, you wouldn’t tell an 11th grader taking physics to measure a small distance using a ruler. The tool would be age and class appropriate.

    In other words, first second and third graders have no need for computers. High schoolers, say, in a calculus class might need a computer occasionally to use programs like Maple or MatLab (depending on the school). There’s no one size fits all policy. Like Aristotle, we should strive for the golden mean in life.

    • Dan McLaughlin

      is precisely the point. Learn the basics and it’s much easier to advance later to use of more complex tools.

  • WarEagle01

    I’ve thought for a long time that computers are largely wasted in the classroom, at least at the lower levels. PCs should be available for students to use for completing assignments and the school can provide training to students to use the software, but use in the classroom and the “computer classes” where kids spend a semester learning Office are a waste. When I was in high school in the 80s and using a computer then meant actually learning how to program. We had TRS-80s and one had to know BASIC to get those things to do just about anything.

    • kyoufuu

      who have gone to college in the last decade and have office jobs have no clue how to use microsoft office.

      • SoulEspresso
  • sanguinesu

    Yes. Let’s ban computers altogether and make our children even MORE unprepared for entry into the 21st century job market. We can just get more H-1B visas approved so kids from China and India can take those jobs. You can’t teach networking, programming or application usage without computers. Are kids too dependent upon calculators? Absolutely. So shut off the computers and calculators during math and science when its time to calculate equations. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. It’s not all or nothing.

    • Dan McLaughlin

      How many people learn programming before they are juniors in high school?

      Kids who know the basics of math, science and the liberal arts and critical thinking can learn their trade to compete in the job market.

      • Slightly_Askew

        Just from informal conversations with my coworkers, I’d say nearly all of them started their careers by dinking around with programming languages when they were children. Whether it was Basic on the Vic-20 for me, or javascript on their Geocities pages for my younger coworkers.

        Good programmers learn the logic of programming long before they learn the technical skills of applying it to a specific language. Taking away a kid’s computer until they are 17, then tossing them into a C# class and expecting them to grasp the concepts is optimistic at best.

      • dwander

        I am constantly amazed at some the the applications being developed by young kids. Some really do have a knack!

        The logic behind math and sciences are a huge plus in learning how to articulate and design how a system should work, of course then users come into play. :-)

        Computers are just another tool that must be taken advantage of during the education process. But like all tools and pretty much everything else, they can be misused.

        Just like the thousands of teachers in the past, the current ones need to be aware of how the tools are being used by their students.

  • jcincy

    Quoting Dan, “But school is supposed to ensure that kids get grounded in the basics.”

    I consider the ability to use a computer for email, word processing, research, and planning a basic skill.

    A computer is a tool. It can be used effectively or abused.

    The problem with many of our public schools, however, has nothing to do with technology. The government run school system has the following objectives:
    - get as much money as possible from the taxpayer and other sources.
    - increase the power and size of the educational bureaucracy.
    - teach the children to become godless, America hating liberals.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      Are our public schools supposed to be job training or citizen training?

      I thought it was the latter which is why we cram silly stuff like algebra and history down the throats of kids who will never need either.

      • Achance

        Long about 9th Grade, kids should reach a fork in the road. They can continue with the liberal arts education with all the literature, history, algebra, trig, geometry, calculus and such so they can go to college with some likelihood of success or they can start taking classes that give them working skills.

        I was in the college prep track in a very old-fashioned school that thought that to get a college prep diploma you should have two years of Latin AND a foreign language as well as four years of English and Literature and Algebra I and II, Geometry, Trig, Calculus, Chemistry, Biology, and Physics. They actually thought a high school student who wanted a good SAT score should work.

        I rebelled in my senior year. I was playing in a band, growing my hair, and even smokin’ a little dope when I could get it, and I just wasn’t into four hours of homework every night. So, I dropped out of the college prep track and took shop, mechanics, and typing classes in my senior year. You know, what I learned in those classes has served me better than all that fancy stuff, typing expecially. When I first entered the white collar government workforce about ’85 or ’86, I was just about the only man who could type with more than two fingers. A natural inquisitiveness combined with some training in things mechanical had made me curious about computers and I was running my business off a CPM machine in the early ’80s so not only did computers not inspire fear, I just saw them as another tool. By the time I came to the State in ’87, I could use the text editor meant for writing code on the dumb terminal on my desk as a rudimentary word processor when none of the other men and few of the women around me would stoop to typing, something clerks did. Guess who was more productive by several multiples.

        Just remember the Roman origin of liberal arts. There some of it that everyone in a republican democracy needs but we shouldn’t be driving kids to drop out of high school because we insist that they have a foreign language, algebra, and obscure literature. I’ve spent most of my working life fairly far up the food chain and I’ve never used any math that I had beyond the 8th Grade or so at work. The only times I’ve ever used Geometry were when I was too lazy to measure things and do the arithmetic – except on the boat, you need a little there sometimes.

    • Dan McLaughlin

      I didn’t have email until a year after I started work after leaving law school. It’s not rocket science to learn.

      Anyway, most kids have access to computers at home, and most who don’t have more pressing needs. There’s really only a narrow subset of kids who are too poor to have a computer at home, yet are headed straight from high school into college or into parts of the job market that demand computer skills. It makes zero sense to arm the whole school system with tools that are genuinely needed only by a small number.

      • jcincy

        I am the I.S. Director in an organization of 75 people. You’d be surprised how inept some of our interns and co-ops have been at even the simple task of using email. Sadly, we have full time staff that have difficulty with the simple task of opening an attachment.

        They also lack other basic skills that they should have learned before entering the workforce.

        Are computers the answer for correcting our educational problems? No. However, I am thrilled that my daughter uses a table PC as part of her education at a private school.

        If you want to fix the educational system in America, start by closing down the government run indoctrination centers aka the public schools.

  • louisiana

    I would venture to say that those doing the bashing have never taught in a public school system, at least not for any length of time. I can only address those problems I faced in my parish in 20 yrs. of teaching. Unless I missed it, one issue that is visibly absent from this discussion is the responsiblity of parents. How do you teach a child who stayed out until all hours of the night & can’t stay awake in your class? How do you teach a child who smoked dope before class & can barely find their way to school? How do you teach a child whose father is in prison & whose mother puts out like a gumball machine? How do you reach a student, who without hesitation, will tell another FU & your momma too? How do you convince a student that education is important when they have stripes across the back of their legs where their father beat them? A good teacher can have a positive impact on their students, but we cannot, and should not be, surrogate parents.

    • zroxx

      … never taught in a public school system…

      I’m sure you’re right and I empathize with you in so much as my associations with several local area teachers who I trust have given me a lot of insight into their situations. Parental involvement and the environment they create at home are by far the deciding factors in student achievement.

      The chief concern I hear expressed by teachers is how to maximize teaching time and minimize bureaucratic interference and busy work. The two biggest distractions they are dealing with are the top-down – usually federally mandated, ala NCLB – requirements to document and report and analyze and create, among other things, these so-called “school wide plans” that get sent up the chain to, well, no teacher can really say what happens to all that work and effort because none of it seems to impact what happens in their classroom, and I think they’re right, the stuff they do in that respect has nothing to do with education and everything to do with some state level education secretary making pie charts. The other distraction is the practice of, I believe they call it mainsteaming, children who have serious mental or emotional problems including certifiable autism into normal classrooms. In one case I was told how a class of 20 some first graders is routinely interrupted by an autistic child humming, singing, or moaning, or frequently bursting out inappropriate things like “I see a bird!” or “Can I have a cracker?”. This is to say nothing of the children who, absent an actual physiological condition, still directly defy teacher instructions to complete work, sit down, or otherwise cease distracting other students. And this in an environment where corporal punishment is forbidden and therefore no effective negative incentive can be leveraged.

      So yes, I can see how the overall quality of education being delivered to that classroom or others like it is diminished by a combination of politically mandated busywork and politically constrained behavior management. And I know that teachers are not the ones to blame for the situations I’ve had described to me.

      And it’s why I tell those teachers, and you, that what they, and you, really want is a free market approach to education, where you and your professional colleagues can join together and offer education services in the manner you deem most likely to provide quality education to your customers – rather than having some presidential appointee in DC roll out a new acronym for success that sounds positively utopian, adds work to your plate, restricts you from using tools that you know work, and ultimately solves nothing.

      • louisiana
    • Achance

      School administrators, Ed-school profs, and Ed-school administrators are all teachers who can’t or won’t teach in the public schools; let’s call them all Educrats. Teachers, Educrats, and the National Extortion Association OWN practically every school board in America. In my town, the EA could put Lenin’s corpse on the school board if they couldn’t find a local who was more liberal. Teachers, Educrats, and the NEA are responsible for the complete breakdown of both in-school discipline and educational standards and I’ve heard school administrators try to shout down complaining parents at school board meetings saying that parents “aren’t qualified” to make determinations about discipline or curiculum. Yet, whenever those parents complain about poor educational outcomes and discipline issues, it is the parents who the teachers, educrats, and the EA blame.

      I happen to think that a free publicly financed education is essential to the functioning of a republican democracy. I’ve seen three iterations of public education. In rural Georgia in the ’50s and ’60s, public education, even Jim Crow public education, was a rising tide that raised all boats. Farm animals weren’t safe with some of my classmates. If their parents weren’t illiterate, their grandparents almost certainly were. By the standards of most of the Country, we were almost all lower class and emotionally disturbed and we boys were extraordinarily violent by today’s sissified standards. My HS principal walked the halls with a cut down canoe paddle and most of my teachers swung a wicked ruler or pointer, but there were, By God, desks in rows, kids in them, and the the teacher was Sir or Mam. Two of the people I started high school with were killed, one in a hunting accident and the other in a car wreck. One girl had to go visit her aunt, so she didn’t graduate with us. The rest, every one of us, who started our freshman year together heard Pomp and Circumstance together because failure simply was not tolerated by the school. And it would have been tolerated by many of the parents because they didn’t know what success was. So, I’m not buying a lot of “it’s the parent’s fault.” The school is responsible for the culture in the school and the school today willfully tolerates degeneracy.

      The second iteration was my daughter with Wife 1.0 in the ’70s and ’80s. I can’t say that the school was the enemy, but it sure wasn’t my friend. My daughter was just a somewhat bright normal white kid, so she was totally ignored. I’d go to teacher conferences and if she wasn’t right there with me, I’d have to explain who she was. But, she got a half-decent education and no particular damage was done.

      Fast forward to the ’90s and ’00s and my stepkids; the school was absolutely the enemy. The 3-Rs were Racism, Recycling, and Reproduction. All parents were ignorant and abusive and the teachers spent more time telling kids about their “rights” in dealing with their parents and how to report their parents to the lesbian social workers than was ever spent on any academic endeavor. Alaska has a per capita distribution of oil income called the Permanent Fund Dividend and every year you had to endure your kids being assigned by their teachers to ask you what you were going to do with “their” PFD. Once the youngest did his best imitation of John Belushi in the foodfight scene in Animal House at the dinner table and I sent him to his room. The next day he told his teacher he was hungry because his parents wouldn’t let him eat dinner and he hadn’t had any breakfast, and he didn’t have a lunch. He wouldn’t get up and dressed in time to eat breakfast and his lunch was in a bag with his name on it in the fridge, but he forgot it. Nonetheless, the lesbian social workers and the cops showed up at my house that evening.

      So, my gg/grandfather, my great-grandmother, my grandmother, and my sister were or are teachers, but frankly I have come to hate the so-called profession that my ancestors would not recognize and my sister, raised as was I to think it a noble calling, has come to hate it too and retired last year.

      • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

        Modern teachers have been raised and taught to be bad teachers…

        once in total control, socialists will no longer tolerate bad teaching. The indoctrination will continue, indeed, intensify, but kids will all be reading by 1st grade, they will all be proficient in math, they will know literature, history…and those who cannot will be taking industrial arts classes by 8th grade….in other words all the things we wish we could do, and were done when you and I were kids in the 50s….

        …only under socialism, they will be learning for all the wrong reasons, the wrong literature, the wrong history.

      • louisiana

        I went to school overseas from grades 1-10 , and attended a small rural school for grades 11 & 12 (35 people in my ’70 graduating class), so I don’t have a great frame of reference for what stateside public schools were like during the 50′s & 60′s. The way in which you describe the public system then, sounds surprisingly like my own. Educators were to be respected. If I misbehaved in school, the punishment would be nothing compared to what I would get at home. My parents expected me to say yes m’am & no m’am to my elders, & to those in positions of authority. It was not a request. It seems from your writing that problems really began in the ’70′s & 80′s. This was, unfortunately, the beginning of experimenting with education–from the “new” math to mainstreaming. I began teaching in l976, in the midst of it all. So, yes I do agree with you when you blame the educational system for the most part. However, parents still bear some responsibility. As my parents taught me, even if you are not the brightest or most talented person in your class, you can be the most well behaved. I would bet that your elder relatives that taught would agree with that. I would totally agree that they would be horrified with the system today. By the way, your sister & I retired for exactly the same reason.

      • Wing Zero

        You sound like my dad…

    • RedBeard

      Teachers can’t do their jobs if they are weighed down with procedural manuals the size of an encyclopedia and also told to act like day care supervisors.

      Another thing that rings my alarm bells is the tired canard that spending more per student equals a better education. Baloney. My mother was educated in a one-room schoolhouse with a coal stove in the corner and a budget of almost nothing. That education prepared her quite well to graduate Phi Beta Kappa from the University of Illinois.

      Put a well-paid good teacher in a room with some kids, and leave them alone. Let the teacher teach.

      • aesthete

        is that one must be able to fire a bad teacher, hire a good one, and keep incentives in place to make teachers teach well. Oh wait, that sounds like the free market, doesn’t it?

        • RedBeard

          The union (and the politicians it owns) won’t stand for such things.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
      • jayburd

        When my sis got her Bachelors in Math in 72′ she told me a story. She said some of the courses were tough and many of the students who couldn’t hack it opted for an Education major. 10 years later when I was working on my degree at the same school it was the same story. You could always get a degree in Ed. I worked with Ed majors in a local restaurant who were as dumb as fence posts. But I also worked with some who took it as a calling. Either way they probably were indoctrinated.

    • http://beaglescout.wordpress.com Beaglescout

      Part of the problem is that in the west we have made it illegal for teens to work. Until the 20th century, once a kid went through puberty they were considered young adults and could work to support themselves and their families. Some of the kids who are disrupting your classes should not be allowed in school. Others would be better off if they were allowed to work for a decent wage and could move out of the house with the abusive parent.

      School is not a universal solution.

      • aesthete
      • mom2oneson

        A lot shoudl change so teens can live independently.Things are set up for parents to support and sign for kids until they are 20ish and it doesn’t work for all.

        • Achance

          If you have student loan debt, if you aren’t armed with the courage of your parents’ connections to get a really good job, you’re going to have a tough time making it on your own for awhile, and that was true in high-cost and urban areas even before last Fall’s crash.

          I think a very serious error has been made in this Country with all the emphasis on “knowledge workers,” and college education. As I poked at a trollish poster yesterday who said his daughter was going to law school for “prestige.” Well, only the small percentage of very successful lawyers actually have any prestige, the rest are lumped right in there with used car salesmen and there are so many lawyers now that they have to fight each other like mad dogs for scraps.

          We need to be able to let kids divert away from liberal arts/college preparatory curriculae early in high school and teach them job market skills and preparatory skills for the trades. In much of the Country, a journeyman plumber, electrician, or carpenter is going to make more than all but the most successful professionals. S/he’s going to have to get dirty, a little – getting dirty is mostly the laborer’s job,s/he’s not going to wear Brooks Brothers, and probably will drive a truck. But, s/he will have a nice house, nice toys, good vacations in warm places, all the things the “professionals” think are their exclusive province and which give them their “prestige.”

          • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

            You get a degree and that is no guarantee of employment, but you are saddled with debt. I avoided that, it took me nearly six years to get a degree while working, but it was worth it.

            As for the state of the nations schools, I have heard all the horror stories, but have not witnessed them, Schools in my area are pretty damn good. All those things Vasser talked about students being able to do, Our kids can do all of that.

  • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

    Teach ‘em to read, and to enjoy a book.

    here’s a quote from Churchill in 1932 in one of his rarer books of shorts stories, Amid These Storms:

    “If you cannot read all your books, at least rate handle them, and, as it were, fondle them. Peer into them. Let them fall open where they will. Read on from the first sentence that arrests your eye. Set them back on their shelves with your own hands.
    Arrange them on your own plan, so that, if you do not know what is in them, you at least know where they are. If they cannot be your friends, let them at any rate be your acquaintances.”

  • http://www.scragged.com petrarch

    In my college accounting course, the professor required us to do all our work manually, the old-fashioned way, using a double-entry ledger. He was quite honest in saying that never again would we ever do it like that, it would always be using a spreadsheet or computer system. But he said that, by being forced to do it by hand, we would learn to UNDERSTAND what was actually going on in the accounting. Whereas, doing it electronically from day 1, we’d learn “what buttons to press” but not a clear grasp of the underlying principles.

    I think he’s right, and that this applies strongly to calculators of all sorts and many computer aids. Once kids are able to do the math by hand, THEN they should be able to use calculators. Once kids learn to calculate their own graphs manually, THEN they can do it with a computer or graphing calculator to speed things up.

    Only where we are willing for people to actually not know the underlying skill, should we go straight to mechanical aids. We allow watches and clocks because we’ve decided it’s not important for people to know how to tell time by the sun. We allow typed reports because we’ve basically decided handwriting and penmanship can be forgotten. That’s OK, as long as we’re logically making that decision.

    If we’re deciding that understanding mathematics is no longer a necessary talent for all citizens, I think that’s a bad mistake.

    But it’s part and parcel with the century-long effort of the liberals to destroy classical education and the capacity for independent though. If you don’t understand mathematics, you won’t be able to instantly tell when the budget numbers are bogus. We don’t want mathematics to go the way history and logic have.

    • Achance

      Everything totally by hand. You plotted courses with dividers and parallel rules on a paper chart. The only other tools you used were a compass and clock. You could use a calculator to do the math, but you were on your own to know what math to do. On the navigation tests the margin of error was 1 degree, which is about the width of the pencil lead, so you’d best be careful.

      I’m extraordinarily unlikely to ever have to plot a course on a paper chart again, but I can do it, and I have that document in my jacket pocket that proves I can do it. And, I can tell time by the Sun if I have a compass and predict weather by the clouds and a barometer, pretty well even without the barometer. But it seems that both I and those skills are pretty much obsolete, at least until the electrical system fails or the government has an emergency and shuts down or drastically degrades the GPS satellites.

  • Joe_Schmo

    I think internet access in schools should be firewalled. Everything shut off to start with and then access to specific sites opened, as deemed appropriate. I would “just say no” to any chat functions and I would disallow cell phones, blackberry’s, and the such outright.

    To me, the unfettered access to the internet is the same as having the school library full of everything from porn, to TV’s with soap opera’s running all day, to the actual needed books for reference. We don’t do that in our school libraries and we shouldn’t in our internet access.

    The computer must stay, however.

    2009 was a very forgetable year for me personally. The one good thing out of it was that my grandson was diagnosed with Autism. Yep, you read that right. While I wish he wasn’t autistic, it has been a very eye opening experience to me. I don’t thnk any less of him now, just think of him differently. Autism is a learning disability. That’s pretty much all it is. Parents of Autistic kids spend their time attempting to teach their children how to learn, instead of just teaching them. What they have to do on a day to day basis is attempt every learning tool they can come accross to see which ones are the magical ones that allow the child to learn. After that, they’re pretty much normal kids. If an abacus is what an autistic child uses to learn math then I want them available in every school.

    Taking this to the every child aspect, I feel that there are a lot of different learning disabilities that might not be on the same level as Autism, but are still out there to be dealt with. Education of our population should be one of our biggest assets and technology should be exploited as much as possible. There are potential Einstien’s out there that may be somewhat disfunctional on a social level but may thrive on an intellectual level given the right pathway.

    • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

      severely limit Internet access. My school district only allows a log on to a few news sites, a few online encyclopedias, some government sites, and a chosen group of education sites. But they do allow one site where the kids can play learning based games.

      (unfortunately Redstate is a banned site.)

      • Joe_Schmo

        then, do I.

        Shows you what I know about schools.

  • piratecoastbucs

    First, computers are the future of education. That said, they must be used appropriately and within limits.

    6th graders in China are writing code for the love of Pete!

    I sat in the back of a college class (I know, different level, but just an observation) that had a computer at each desk. Being at the back I could see pretty much every other screen in the room. The professor was lecturing on some pretty pertinent information about the binary numbering system and it was a little disturbing to see at least 75% of the class tweeting and facebooking…

    My point is this.. Great tools can be used for both productive and destructive means.

    They will save students, parents, and schools money in many ways. Not to mention instant communication and feedback.

  • 4life

    My 8th grader does all his algrebra 1 homework online and it is the greatest thing since sliced cheese! He has instant feedback so knows if he has done the problem right or not. He has to work it out on scrap paper and then enter the answer. He gets three chances to get it right and is then given a new problem. At any time he can click on a tab on the right and see the corresponding textbook page. He can also do a step by step tutorial. The teacher can see how many attempts he made for each right answer, how long it took him to do his homework, and therefore knows exactly what he is having trouble with. I can step in and do a quick review with the tools and help him if he really gets stuck. As a mom, I think it is awesome, and wish I had had similar math programs growing up.

    And as far as surfing goes, there’s not much time for that at my house.

    Having said that, I think my husband is going to revoke my internet priviledges – too much time on Redstate!

    • Wing Zero

      Now this is a good use of Technology. But it does force the parent to watch the child at the keyboard. I can do some equations from my calculator on my desk top.

      But what is really key is that you, the Parent, are involved in your child’s education. I try every day to ask my 3 year old what she did at school. Sometimes I get a good answer, sometimes not. Well, she’s 3. I plug away at it every day, and soon I’m sure I’ll get a consistent result.

      • 4life

        with what is a good use of computers and what is not. Hopefully by the time your daughter is in third grade they won’t be wasting much time on the computer. My kids had ‘computer’ class in elementary school and I thought it was a complete waste of time. And when my kids were encouraged to turn in typed papers in the 5th grade I made them write them out longhand first. Then I circled all the spelling errors and made them provide me with a corrected paper. Then I typed them exactly as submitted to me. The thought that they could just use spell check drove me crazy. In our school I think there is still room for improvement in computer use, however this math program is exceptional. And I’m sure he doesn’t try to cheat with his homework by trying to find the answer somewhere else. That would only work until the first test, and so far he has done well on the tests which tells me he is really learning the material (the tests and quizzes are not online). As always, the parents must do their best to know what their kids are up to online. I love my blocking software – bsafe online – especially the weekly report that shows every site visited. I also love the parental controls on our TV. I have all shows PG and above blocked, adult titles, etc….(some of the PG stuff is really bad). Sometimes I time block 8AM to 6PM so they can’t just sneak off on click it on. Usually we are busy enough with sports and homework that its not an issue. Parents have to be parents. That is the bottom line. And actually, I think moms are more sensitive to this than dads, so moms take the lead and don’t back down. (Not to start another gender war here!)

  • muffin

    while watching the election returns. I voiced how important it was for Scott Brown to win. The 20-something had no idea about the election or the consequences. I then proceeded to explain about the health care monstrosity and the downward turn into socialism, and the 20-something asked me, (and I quote!) “What is socialism?” I was totally floored when he asked me that question. What aren’t>/b> they teaching our children in schools nowadays? If they aren’t teaching civics anymore, parents need to take the initiative and teach their children.

    • RedBeard

      Everything my sons know about politics and civics was learned at home. History too, to a large extent.

      The school system was too busy experimenting with “revolutionary” learning techniques like math without correct answers, English with optional spelling, and the proper way to install a condom on a cucumber.

      • jayburd

        Because we still tolerate the unconstitutional Dept. of Ed. Obama is attempting to up the ante on Fed control of ed. Once upon a time the G.O.P. was for abolition of Dept of Ed. So what do we do now, give it over to the U.N.? Here is the contradictory G.O.P. platform on FedEd.

        ” Reviewing the Federal Role in Primary and Secondary Education”

        “Although the Constitution assigns the federal government no role in local education, Washington?s authority over the nation?s schools has increased dramatically. In less than a decade, annual federal funding has shot up 41 percent to almost $25 billion, while the regulatory burden on state and local governments has risen by about 6.7 million hours ? and added $141 million in costs ? during that time. We call for a review of Department of Education programs and administration to identify and eliminate ineffective programs, to respect the role of states, and to better meet state needs.

        To get our schools back to the basics of learning, we support initiatives to block-grant more Department of Education funding to the states, with requirements for state-level standards, assessments, and public reporting to ensure transparency. Local educators must be free to end ineffective programs and reallocate resources where they are most needed.”

        What do they mean by “more Department of Education funding” “with requirements”?

    • Wing Zero

      The 20 something could have said, “What’s wrong with socialism?” or even worse the heart attack inducing, “Nothing’s wrong with socialism” while wearing a Che shirt…

      Be thankful you had a blank slate.

  • Flagstaff

    I have to read it again.

  • TheFactor

    Typically agree with what you write, but on this one I am going to have to respectfully disagree. Not saying that computers and technology in general are always applied properly in the classroom; but if anything their use should be expanded.

    We live in a wired world.

  • vrwcnut

    objective. What do we want our educators to accomplish? The first requirement is to know where you are going. Laptops vs. slide rules is not the fundamental issue.

    Our founders knew the objective of education and wrote often about it. They considered an informed population essential to keeping the Republic.

    Today, it is all about preparing for the modern workforce. Evidence abounds that one can have a profitable career and not know much about our form of government.

    Compound that loss of direction in grades 1-12 with the near-monopoly of leftist thought control in many universities and the result is an electorate who will put communists, socialists, Mao lovers and Che-worshipers in high office.

    If we cannot become effective in combating the leftist agenda from our local school boards on up, the tools used in the classrooms will be irrelevant to defending our most precious national treasure: freedom.

  • http://www.helpawhiteguy.com livefreenh

    …should not be confused. I believe the problem is that when “computers” are the end instead of the means, the problem seems to exist. Computers are properly thought of as a way to do something, just the way a TV is used to watch a movie, or a car is used to get to the store.

    Sometimes we take a drive to nowhere, and sometimes we play with the menus on the “setup” screen of the TV. These are time-wasters, whether or not well-intentioned.

    When the computer becomes part of the underlying infrastructure, instead of the novelty it currently is, this will all change.

    Not surprisingly, where the distinction is made tends to follow age/generational lines, and the same phenomenon is seen with cell phones, for example. And you can tell which camp you are in by the words that are used to describe the item. We “old farts” call it a cell phone. Everyone else calls it a “phone”.

    That is because the younger crowd, for lack of a better term, use it to talk with their friends, or to pay bills, or to transact some verbal conversation. Other people, likely including the ones quoted above, see it as a different way of doing things than we used to do it “in the old days.”

    Did you ever wonder what the term “whipper-snappers” means, and why it refers to younger people, by older people? Think of the guy with the lion, and what the whip is used for.

  • http://www.reddit.com/user/pi_over_three/ Pi Over Three

    No doubt this now being passed around my liberals to mock us.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      I think this comment reflects more on you than Crank though.

    • blooch

      about energy-hogging, huge cabon-footprinting server farms?

      I don’t want my kids raping the earth with computers. And I want their teachers to stop making them go to the class websites at home and print out homework assignments on my paper. I already sent them a ream to do that at school.

  • http://stores.lulu.com/iconicfreedom iconicfreedom

    Anything that encourages and advances freedom & independence, is a great thing – it’s what America was founded on. To limit life to your personal subjective ideals does a huge disservice to the individual who is developing in society.

    Any parent, unfortunately, is free to destroy his child’s mind because society does not live with that parent 24/7, however, we as a society, and most especially as a party, need to be encouraging as many ways as possible to increase freedom and Independence; self-reliance & self-governance.

    Freedom or control? which side are you on? If you’re on the side of control, for what personal agenda or selective purpose? What version of life have you decided upon, that, in self-righteousness, you think everyone else ought to live by?

    Now, as far as the cost of such things, no more tax dollars to fund such endeavors, but start soliciting companies to sponsor the costs and give them sponsorship advertisements, etc. to help pay for it. ALL education needs to go the way of Charter Schools where they are funded by those who utilize them and not from pluralistic tax dollars. This, once again, will uphold free market choice, free market solutions and individual choice – definitely what we want as a party.

  • jcincy

    Is not the question. It is yet another distraction.

    The public schools will tell you that the children cannot read, write, or do math because:
    - they don’t get enough food to eat
    - they don’t have a computer
    - the schools don’t have enough money
    - class sizes are too large (we need more teachers)
    - the buildings are too old, too hot, too cold, etc.
    - there is not enough diversity in the classroom
    - there are not enough male teachers
    - there are not enough female teachers
    - there are not enough minority teachers
    - the kids watch too much t.v. (that’s why we have cable t.v. in every classroom)
    - the kids have ADHD and need to be drugged
    - peer pressure
    - sports is a distraction
    - the kids need to be physically active
    - the parents are not engaged
    - the engaged parents are not education professionals

    Please don’t delude yourselves. The public school system doesn’t care whether Johnny can read, write, or do math. Their goal is to grow their bureaucratic empire and to teach the children to become godless, America hating liberals. They want to divide this country into three classes: the dependent class, the ruling class, and the powerless working class that carries the financial burden of the other two classes.

    The liberal elite don’t send their children to public school. Do you?

    • jcincy

      Read this article in the Wall Street Journal:

      http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704320104575015010515688120.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_BelowLEFTSecond

      “The central battle in our time is over political primacy. It is a competition between the public sector and the private sector over who defines the work and the institutions that make a nation thrive and grow.”

      Are the public schools a private sector entity or a public sector entity?