« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

FRONT PAGE CONTRIBUTOR

Scott Brown, Ron Paul, The CPAC Straw Poll and 2012

It Is Not 2012 Yet. And We Have Lessons To Learn Before It Is.

Let’s talk just a little about the 2012 presidential election. I’d like to make three related points:

(1) Nobody should be touting Scott Brown as a 2012 presidential candidate.

(2) The GOP is going to be picking from a bench that is short on candidates with the experience we need.

(3) It’s a good thing that Ron Paul won the “straw poll” of 2012 candidates at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) last week.

Now, as a general rule, it’s not a great time for Republicans and conservatives to be talking about the 2012 election. We have more than enough on our plates fighting the policy battles (Obamacare and otherwise) that will dominate the rest of the year, as well as the numerous elections to be contested in 2010. In fact, the Right has benefitted – much as the Left did in 2005-06 – from its lack of a single, identifiable leader; as hard as the Obama White House has tried to personalize attacks on its critics, the absence of a single leader to pick on means that voters’ attention has remained fixed on Obama’s own failures (and rightly so, given the overwhelming majorities he has in both Houses of Congress). But sometimes it’s necessary to head off problems before they develop.

Scott Brown For … Senator

Since Scott Brown’s stunning victory in the special Senate election in Massachusetts in January, he’s been the man in demand for Republicans everywhere who are looking to rub off some of the magic that allowed him to win the first GOP Senate seat in the Bay State in decades. Inevitably, there have been rumblings here and there about running Brown for president in 2012 against Obama – hey, he can win in Massachusetts, why not?

Hold on there, tiger.

First of all, analysis by following the latest shift in the wind is the worst kind of punditry. A good number of the people touting Brown, a fairly liberal but populist New England Republican, were touting conservative (and also newly-elected) Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell back in November, in both cases because of the whole “shiny new toy” factor. A new candidate who hasn’t had time to accumulate baggage, make compromises and make enemies always looks appealing, because you can wishcast all sorts of things onto them. But that’s a lousy way to pick a potential president or a potential national candidate.

McDonnell, at least, is a plausible national figure, if you add in some experience and he compiles a successful track record in office – he’s already been the state Attorney General, and is embarking on a term as the state’s chief executive, the closest thing our political system offers (in some ways even moreso than the Vice Presidency) to good training to be President. And running and hopefully governing as a conservative in a “purple” state, McDonnell could conceivably build a record that makes him appealing both to Republican primary voters and the voters of his own state.

Not so for Scott Brown. One can hope that Brown’s populist campaign stands as a reminder to him, as he serves, that there are some conservative principles that are enduringly popular even in Massachusetts. But the simple reality is that the voters in Brown’s state won’t re-elect him in 2012 if he starts acting like a guy who’s thinking as a Republican presidential candidate, and Republican primary voters won’t warm to him if he votes as a Massachusetts Republican. We saw how well it worked out in 2008 for Mitt Romney, who bailed out on running for re-election in 2006 only to be rejected by GOP presidential primary voters in 2008. The most conspicuous issue on which this is the case is abortion, the subject of some of Romney’s most glaring flip-flops and a significant Achilles heel as well for serious GOP candidates like Rudy Giuliani; Brown is something of a moderate on the issue, but remains essentially pro-choice, and while there’s plenty of room in the tent for guys like that, it would be a non-starter for someone running to lead a basically pro-life party (the failure of Rudy’s campaign has largely convinced me that this is a circle that may just be impossible to square because it leaves the candidate with too little margin for error in other ways). You could pick more examples down the line of less-prominent issues.

Brown, to his credit, has mostly laughed at the idea, but for his own good, he’d be better served if he closed the door on it entirely and emphatically, and moreover resisted the temptation to let other Republican candidates drag him all over the map to campaign for them. Presidential daydreams are bad for the longeitvity of politicians who depend on their regular-guy image, and national Republican politics is hazardous to anybody who wants to get re-elected in Massachusetts.

There’s a more fundamental problem with the talkof running Brown in 2012: it suggests that some pundits and activists haven’t learned anything from Barack Obama. Brown is a legislator. He’s served a couple terms in the State Senate, and being in the minority doesn’t have a lot of accomplishments. He’s held down a part-time law practice. He’s won precisely one statewide election, and has yet to make any mark in Washington. In other words, his resume is just about exactly the same as Barack Obama’s in 2008.

We’ve seen in practice the many ways in which Obama’s total lack of any of the traditional types of experience we look for in a president – executive experience, national security experience, political and political leadership experience, military combat service, or private sector business experience – has caught up with him. He’s made one rookie mistake after another, and even his defenders at this point have to acknowledge that his struggles, especially in managing his legislative agenda, have derived from a fair number of unforced strategic errors borne of a misunderstanding of how to run a presidency – overreaching, trying to do too many things at once, ceding too much authority to Congress, promising things he couldn’t deliver. Having never run anything before, he accentuated his own weaknesses by selecting a Vice President, Cabinet and White House staff heavy on generalist legislators and Chicagoans, light on executives and people with useful specialized expertise, and almost barren of people familiar with the private sector. This, in turn, had secondary consequences (legislators and bureaucrats are more apt than your typical businessman to not bother paying their taxes). Nor is this the first time the Democrats have made this particular mistake – in 2004, they had as their Vice Presidential nominee John Edwards, whose only tenure in public office was a single term as a Senator, to which he had no realistic chance of being re-elected, prior to which he had run a small (though profitable) personal injury law practice. Like Obama, Edwards had no executive experience, no real legislative accomplishments, no experience with national security issues, no experience working in any other sort of private business and no military service record.

Republicans are supposed to know better. The absolute last thing the GOP should be doing in 2012 is letting Obama off the hook – or running the risk of electing a candidate who puts America through the same thing – by nominating somebody who suffers the same weaknesses, however good a Senate candidate he may be or however good a Senator he may become.

A Time For Leadership

I have not picked a horse yet for 2012, and would caution anyone against doing so before the 2010 elections are over. That being said, I do know what I want: I want a candidate who can bring the kind of proven leadership experience to the table that we lack in our current president, ideally over some length of time. I want a candidate who has some record of having and standing for principles against adversity. And in light of the ugly record of the McCain, Dole, Kerry, McGovern and Goldwater campaigns, among others, I’d really rather not run a Senator, or someone else whose public career is largely or wholly as a legislator. The presidency is still an executive job, after all.

I’m realistic that we may have less than ideal choices – every presidential election season requires settling for the best of what you have in front of you, and even the best candidates have their drawbacks. As of now, we appear to have only two candidates (Tim Pawlenty and Mitt Romney) who seem certain to run, though many others are possibles. A number of members of the Senate and House are reportedly thinking of running, several of whom are smart, principled people, excellent at the jobs they now do. Two of our potentially leading contenders (Romney and Sarah Palin) are one-term Governors, in Palin’s case a term she resigned before completing. Both are undoubtedly more experienced than Obama – besides being state-level chief executives, Romney had a long and successful career as a business executive, Palin spent the better part of 17 years in a variety of offices including being a mayor and heading the state oil and gas commission, and both had already accomplished more by 2008 than Obama ever had – but are nonetheless a good deal lighter on experience than I’d like to see. (Long-time readers know my issues with Romney; I haven’t ruled out supporting Palin in the primaries but really will take a long look at the alternatives first). Several of the party’s possible brightest stars in the Governor’s mansions – Bobby Jindal, McDonnell, Chris Christie – will not be scheduled to complete their first terms until 2011 or 2013.

Part of the problem is the shortage of GOP Governors elected or re-elected in 2006 or re-elected in 2008, the cycles when you’d look to be getting people ready to make the next step. There are at present only 15 sitting GOP Governors who have been re-elected at least once, and that’s the pool you would ordinarily look to; there’s only a few others up to be elected for a second time in 2010. One of the 15 is Arnold Schwarzenegger, who’s legally ineligible for the presidency. One is Mark Sanford, who took himself out of the running with personal scandal. Others are plainly too liberal to run as GOP standard-bearers: Linda Lingle, Jodi Rell, Jim Douglas. Jon Hoeven is running for the Senate, as is Charlie Crist, who’d otherwise be up for re-election in 2010. Jon Hunstmann left office to pursue an ambassadorship to China. That leaves an eight-man bench:

Bob Riley-AL
Sonny Perdue-GA
Mitch Daniels-IN
Tim Pawlenty-MN
Haley Barbour-MS
Dave Heineman-NE
Mike Rounds-SD
Rick Perry-TX

You can add Mike Huckabee as a guy with a decade’s experience as a governor who may run. We’ll leave the pros and cons of this group – Pawlenty’s running, and Daniels, Barbour and Perry all might – for another day. Because before we get too comfortable with any one candidate, we come to my third point.

CPAC Chooses None of the Above

The media has tried out various angles on the news that Ron Paul won the 2012 straw poll at this year’s CPAC, winning around 740 votes out of the 2,395 people who voted in the poll, itself a subset of the 10,000+ attendees. Some might take it as a sign of some vitality for Paul-ism, or whatever. To me, what it says is this: yes, Ron Paul’s people remain organized and energized in their own way, but the real story is that (1) nobody else has either a naturally strong enough constituency among conservative activists to beat Paul without trying (and straw polls are all about trying) and (2) nobody else was willing to put resources into winning a poll of this nature before the 2010 elections.

That’s good news all around. Good news for the candidates because people like Romney, Pawlenty, Palin, Mike Huckabee and others are still prioritizing the 2010 races and policy battles, trying to get other Republicans elected and defeat bad legislation. That’s a lesson we Republicans and conservatives want them all to get. And good news for the movement that people are willing to send those candidates, and any other prospective 2012 aspirants, a message: you still have a lot to prove to us. For a movement that has regained its momentum mostly from the ground up over the past year, and that faces lingering doubts as to how well its current and future leaders have learned the lessons of past mistakes, that’s maybe the best news of all.

COMMENTS

  • Wes_W

    Scott Brown just joined the Democrats and voted for the Jobs Bill. Not sure how voting with the Dems on his first big vote will look on his resume.

    • fightnright

      surprised? not so much. Brown’s devotion to his ‘bipartisan, bibartisan’ mantra mirrors his admiration for McCain. We may have another McCain/rino here. And we all know how well that usually ends, I’m tapping my fingers by my keyboard, looking for redstaters’ responses to this development…..

      • discerningconservative

        I think we all knew he wouldn’t be with us on every issue. I am positive that he is far better than Coakley. Scott Brown isn’t a strong conservative, and we will likely lose his vote on some issues. He campaigned on being the 41st vote against Obamacare, and that fact alone was worth the work to get him elected.

        If Brown sticks to his promise and opposes Obamacare, I will feel that the money I donated to his campaign was well worth it. I don’t support the jobs bill, but don’t feel short-changed by Brown supporting it.

        • fightnright

          was seeing Brown’s name right next to that well-known pop duo, Snowe & Collins – like a disturbing dream re-awakened. I’m also wondering how far Brown’s “willingness to compromise” will lead him in future, say on that healthcare bill. Will it be Brown’s foot holding the door open the extra inch that’ll enable the Democrats to sprint an extra mile toward Obamacare??? I’m glad I’m here to read steadying thoughts, but it’ll be a waiting game!!!

          • discerningconservative

            to have him vote with us a few times, than to have Coakley vote with us never.

          • fightnright

            I’ll focus on the realities that we actually faced. We had a Massachusetts ‘Miracle’ in winning the seat, and look forward to its being reduced to a Massachusetts ‘blessing’ when legislative votes are cast =)

          • writeblock

            I don’t think the jobs bill is much of anything. He’s from a blue state where it’ll play well. And it’s not a pork-laden monstrosity. In fact I think it shores up his credentials as somebody who will be independent as promised. It in no way undercuts his standing as a conservative on the bigger issues.

            As for the take on Rudy–I think it’s a mistake to count him out. 2012 will be much different from 2008. With the benefit of hindsight I think we’d all agree that nominating McCain over Rudy was a huge mistake–one we’re not likely to make a second time. The bottom line was not that he is pro-choice, but that he’s a strict constructionist. Coming from a blue state–like Brown–he was bound to affirm choice. But in all other aspects he was the ideal candidate, given his expertise in fiscal policies and real reform–of a kind said to be impossible, even miraculous. He’s what we need most this time around. I don’t think the social issues will be as potent as before–especially since he’s leaned over backwards to accommodate those who oppose him for this reason. More than this–he’s an outsider, a Reaganite, a non-establishment executive genius. We need to look at him again.

    • Brian_Roastbeef

      In the end they got Snowe, Collins, and Voinovich too. I’ll give him a pass on this one. In fact in light of this article it could almost be a good sign. It shows that Brown is thinking about his position with the liberal electorate of Massachusetts, rather than trying to position himself farther to the right to create a national base.

      Jobs bill is a minor loss for us. It was going to pass anyway. Its far more important that Brown remains firmly against the latest push for Obamacare.

      • Dan McLaughlin

        He’ll pick fewer battles than a real conservative would.

        But that’s how you build majorities.

        • Brian_Roastbeef

          Scott Brown is useful for the part of the time that he is with us. As a Senator from Massachusetts, he is overwhelmingly valuable. If he were from South Carolina, or Arizona, or Utah, he’d be worse than useless. Right now, I expect him to understand that he was voted in mostly because of opposition to Obamacare.

          As for his Presidential aspirations, I agree with your article almost entirely. Right now we should be focusing on 2010 gains and only have a vague non-committal understanding of whom we would support in 2012.

          There are a couple that I know I wouldn’t support, but just because I backed Romney in 2008 doesn’t mean I have to back him next time around too, though I might. It all depends on what the potential candidates do in bringing us to victory this year, and the message that they deliver in 2011 and 2012.

          I’m still not crazy about the support for Ron Paul at CPAC, but if in the end all recognize it as a vote that doesn’t really matter for anything, then everybody seems to be on the right page. Good article.

        • writeblock

          …But he doesn’t have the luxury of coming from Texas or Alabama. As a blue state conservative–like Rudy–he’s got to walk a fine line. It’s easy for somebody from Kansas to be a purist. Not so for somebody from Massachusetts. It’s time we grew up about these expectations. It’s enough that he’s for limited government and is pro-military.

          These kinds of comments about blue state Republicans are really wrong-headed. We might have had a real reformer in the presidency instead of Obama. But to a lot of you Giuliani wasn’t a real conservative–though he served under Reagan, was pro-military, was fiscally conservative, and was a strict constructionist. He showed grace under pressure on 9/11 besides. But that wasn’t good enough.

          • Scope

            of what a conservative is. None, nada, zip.

          • writeblock

            …since I’m a native New Yorker and now live in Pennsylvania. I know the cultural milieu of the Northeast. It’s not Texas. It’s not Mississippi. Those who demand purity in politics get what we’ve got–Obama. You have to vote smart and give certain candidates some slack, depending on where they’re from and how the rest of the country thinks, other than your own narrow perspective. It’s not enough to be right on the issues. You have to be realistic about how much to push them and when.

            This is not the same as calling for a big tent and running moderates for office. But we need to recognize that somebody like Giuliani was never a rino in the sense of a McCain or a Graham. He had a solid conservative record of accomplishment behind him of lowering taxes, selling off municipal properties, eliminating agencies, consolidating others, fighting crime, fighting terrorism, limiting government. Exactly the kind of agenda we need in the top slot right now. But he didn’t stand a chance among farmers and evangelicals–
            anymore than DeMint would stand a chance in places like NY and MA. Giuliani was running ahead of the pack nationally. He would have won NJ, CT and PA over Obama–and carried the red states as well. So there’s no question had he won the primary he would have won the election. Instead we let small states like Iowa and S.C. decide for the rest of us on the basis of the social issues–so we lost even those in the end. Now we’re facing socialism.

            Guys like you need to wake up. You need to weigh the candidate against the threats we face. Do you really think a purist like DeMint has the credentials that Rudy has in terms of turning this country around by means of real reform? You need look at what somebody has actually accomplished first. And you need to allow some slack for where a candidate comes from. We’re lucky to have Brown. No need to start tearing him down and expelling him from the club. That small Jobs bill was the least of our worries. Brown knows his people. It was an easy vote for him to cast in order to mollify his constituency back home–especially given he’s up for reelection again in a presidential election year–when the Dems in MA will be loaded for bear.

          • dpaitsel

            I’m not too surprised (or disappointed) with Brown here. I never thought he was the reincarnation of Ronald Reagan, miraculously elected to the Senate from MA. In the long run, I expect he will be better than Snowe or Collins, but those expecting another Jim DeMint were bound to be disappointed.

            I also agree that the Brown 2012 talk was totally misguided and insane. The Tea Party people may have propelled him to victory, but he was never going to live up to that libertarian streak that is so prominent among the Tea Partiers.

            writeblock: good point on Giuliani. And the reason that happened is mostly because of the abortion issue. Good conservatives are supposed to march in lockstep on this issue.

            As a strict constructionist and fiscal conservative, I wish the conservative movement as a whole would throw this whole abortion issue overboard. Not to start an abortion debate here, but I don’t buy the notion that the state has a legitimate interest in an unborn baby from the moment of conception on. From the point of viability, sure…but from conception? Come on…

            Besides, the federal government’s spending will destroy this country. With a sinking economy, arguments about abortion are beside the point. The pro-life zealots will never see it this way, but abortion debates are a luxury that should be saved for a time when our financial security isn’t being flushed down the toilet.

          • curmudgeon

            For the first time since polling began, a majority of Americans call themselves pro-life. To jettison this issue right when it’s become a clear winner is good advice only for those who wish the Dems to continue in the majority.

            Ask yourself this: If Rudy had been pro-life, would he have had a much better chance at the nomination? If McCain had brought up Obama’s repeated opposition to the Born Alive Act, would it have made it a closer race?

            The only honest answer to both question: HECK YES!

            The way to win is to form a coalition of conservatives concerned with issues ranging from fiscal sanity to low taxes to national security to pro-life. If we drop any of these groups, we lose. Period.

          • writeblock

            …But all we should demand on that front is a Supreme Court nominee who is a strict constructionist. That’s where the president’s real impact lies. Had Rudy got the nod and won some blue states, he would have won the presidency and nominated a conservative to the SC, securing the future for our side. As it is, that body hangs on a slender thread in our favor. But we let a huge political opportunity slip by in 2008 because of our purist tendencies. We shouldn’t be letting Dr. Dobson choose our candidates. And we give farmers and evangelicals and small New England villagers too much say in choosing our nominees. They promise more of the same, election cycle after election cycle. When the prime issues are farm subsidies and abortion, you end up with pseudo-conservative candidates like Dole, Bush, McCain. Sure they’re strongly pro-life. But they were far from fiscally conservative. Not good.

          • Ausonius

            I will be publishing a diary soon on this false division “I am a fiscal conservative, but am a social liberal,” or in this case, a fiscal conservative who thinks abortion is not involved in economics.

            Quickly, consider the increase in poverty caused by the influence of Roe vs. Wade: with the attitude of “the girl can always get an abortion”, i.e. there does not need to be a consequence for immoral out-of-wedlock behavior, America has seen a huge increase in single mothers and children without fathers, because – imagine that! – the girl does not ALWAYS get an abortion!!!

            And so we pay for a welfare bureaucracy of social workers, we pay for the extra stress on schools, etc. not to mention the cost to society in lost productivity from incompetent “families.”

            If our society brought back severe penalties and consequences and social pressures upon unwed mothers and fathers, the amount of money saved would be immense.

            Being “socially liberal” prevents one from being a real fiscal conservative. More on this later! :)

          • aesthete

            The pro-life conviction doesn’t fall under fiscal conservatism; otherwise, we could cast any statist rehabilitation program as “fiscally conservative” under the thought that such measures could keep people out of prison. Indeed, if fiscal conservatism were simply a matter of balancing budgets, one could easily state that any combination of taxes and expenditures would be fiscally conservative, so long as revenue = expenditures. So, in the sense that a “pro-life” government would have to expand government to enforce pro-life laws, it is not fiscally conservative. Rather, the pro-life position is a natural application of the Harm Principle, which is as follows:

            “…the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.”

            Since it can be reasonably established that the overwhelming majority of abortions are not conducted with the purpose of self-protection (i.e., the mother’s life is not in danger), it is clear that the rights of the fetus to life trump the mothers’ right to full, unencumbered use of her body. If there is any reason for government, it is to prevent such an extreme deprivation of liberty from occurring, and is the only good argument, IMO, for government intervention in such an intimate matter. In a sense, the pro-life movement could more accurately be described as the pro-rights movement.

            Interestingly enough, this is actually a very libertarian argument, as it establishes government as a guarantor of natural rights, and nothing more. As a result, I would say that though the pro-life position expands government, it is also an appropriate use of government, and would ask rightist opponents, if government can’t spend funds on protecting our natural (negative) rights, then what is an appropriate use of government funds?

          • writeblock

            …the morality of the pro-life position. But we live in a mixed society where many many others don’t share our moral perspective. The question then becomes, how can we best push the pro-life agenda? Politics is the art of the do-able, remember? If we nominate weak candidates solely because of their appeal to our side on the social issues, we lose–unless we’re lucky enough to have the opposition choose doofuses like Gore and Kerry. If we run a strong candidate from a blue state, we win–and do more for the pro-life movement in the long run, even if he’s pro-choice. First, we keep a pro-abortion Democrat out of office. Second, we stand a better chance of getting the kind of SC nominee we want.

            Don’t get me wrong. There’s a huge difference between somebody like Rudy and somebody like Crist or Graham. Rudy comes out of the same cultural soil as Scalia and Alito. He’s always been a strict constructionist, not an ideological will-o’-the-wisp.

          • aesthete

            But we still shouldn’t make economic arguments against abortion, any more than we should concerning murder or theft: it’s a weak, statist argument, and the lack of a clear answer one way or another plays into the hands of abortionists, who would love to make abstract and complex an issue that is, at its core, very simple to understand, and who would love to move away from a discussion of the humanity of a fetus, and onto a cold discussion concerning cost (which they would handily win, IMO). Abortion is fundamentally a moral and natural rights issue, and we should reject any attempts to frame it otherwise.

          • audax

            Looking forward to reading your article!

          • Ausonius

            any more than tracking down murderers does.

            As mentioned above, allowing abortions contributes to the “free, casual sex” attitudes, which definitvely lead to expansion of government in both welfare and health-care costs.

            Thank you “Audax”: I hope to finish thinking about and writing the diary on the cost of political correctness, and of beliefs which seemingly have no economic effect, in a few days.

          • Ausonius

            any more than tracking down murderers does.

            As mentioned above, allowing abortions contributes to the “free, casual sex” attitudes, which definitvely lead to expansion of government in both welfare and health-care costs.

            Thank you “Audax”: I hope to finish thinking about and writing the diary on the cost of political correctness, and of beliefs which seemingly have no economic effect, in a few days.

          • aesthete

            But so do obesity, drugs, smoking, and several other harmful activities. l would find it odd for someone to say that a small-government conservative must support laws regulating transfats and smoking to be a “true” fiscal conservative. It very well could be that pro-life policies would reduce government expenditures on Social Security/Welfare, but the same could be said of regulation geared towards curbing obesity or smoking (health). Small government is about government having a minimized presence in the lives (and wallets) of citizens. Inasmuch as neither pro-life policies, transfat regulation, and smoking bans don’t fulfill this role, they cannot credibly be classed as “small government” ventures. The question that should be asked is, is the expansion in government that would result from such policies and the use of the monopoly of force worth it? Unlike the other two examples given, I think that for abortion, the answer to that question is yes, because protection of persons from loss of life is a valid and core function of government.

            Moreover, the idea that protection of the unborn would lead to more chaste views of sexuality is one that is dubious: birth control, contraceptives, and “the pill” exist, and are and will continue to be used in the future. Polling indicates that it is more than possible to be promiscuous and support restrictions on abortion at once: Generation Y is more supportive of “alternate lifestyles”, living together, etc. than its antecedent, but is also less supportive of abortion than same. Most attitudes concerning sexuality emerge at an early age; abortion and contraceptives are merely tools used by an already molded mind, not attitude-formers in and of themselves.

            Though policies protecting the unborn would vary, effective ones would, indeed, have a larger cost attached to them than the cost of regular law enforcement, at least, if you would want to get rid of “back alley abortion” providers, check hospitals for compliance, and prevent the use of the abortion pill. Protecting life is worth those costs, but making an economic argument for pro-life policies while considering those costs would be difficult.

            Again, I like and get where your posts are coming from, and it’s possible that government revenues might benefit from pro-life policies (personally, I’m not sure if it would). But we should never make economic arguments for abortion restriction: a hypothetical is inherently unprovable, and the fact that most abortions occur in inner-city and low-income areas means that the economic utility of pro-life policies for the government would probably not be all that high, when one factors in the increased crime, etc. that would be the likely outcomes of an increase in the low-income, inner-city population.

            Really, an economic argument only aids the Malthusians in their dire predictions, and is filled with too many variables to tell one way or another. Besides that, the economically efficient number of abortions would likely not be zero, if we are framing the argument in terms of economic cost. In short, someone who is pro-choice isn’t against small government, but could be either a bad person, or misinformed concerning the subject.

          • rudyardkipling

            I agree with most of what you say, but I’m curious what you were referring to when you said most abortions occur in inner cities; I found stats saying most abortions are for women in an income under 50K, but just wondering about the geographical portion.

            good comment though.

          • Ausonius

            One would not want to rely solely on an economic argument for banning abortions, even if allowing abortions saved the government money (it does not), since human life should not be viewed thus.

            The original point is that being “socially liberal” is illogical with also claiming to be “fiscally conservative.” The socially liberal ideas will prevent fiscal conservatism from becoming possible.

            Rudyard Kipling (below): check these statistics for the genocidal aspect of abortion:

            http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1571945

          • aesthete

            I knew it was somewhere, but I was too lazy to look :)

            I think that you’re missing my point, though. It isn’t currently clear how pro-life policies (which is a broad term in and of itself) would affect government expenditures and revenues, and even if it affected them positively, an externalities argument would be statist more than conservative. (Repressive policy X would cause effect Y, justifying policy X is the form that such an argument would take, and is used to justify many unconservative things.) Supporting abortion doesn’t make one a fiscal liberal; worse, it makes one either immoral, someone who is misinformed, or someone who doesn’t believe that it is the government’s responsibility to protect the right to anyone’s life (which would include anarchists and fringe libertarians).

            And yes, I believe that informed and independent support of abortion, regardless of other things that person may have done, is absolutely evil. We’re pretty much on the same side, and if this were a liberal blog and I was absolutely certain that pro-life policies would alleviate the budget situation, I’d use an economic argument to present a case for a liberal pro-life position. When it comes to classical liberalism, however, I don’t see how such an analysis would be the main, or even a tertiary concern. At any rate, I look forward to reading your blog post on the economics of abortion; I’m sure it will make for an interesting read, and a fascinating comments thread.

          • tcgeol

            that abortion is the only issue with Giuliani, but that is not true. Pro-RKBA people hated Giuliani as an R candidate. His record on the Second Amendment is absolutely horrible and he has never shown any signs, except for an interview after he declared his candidacy, of changing that at all.

            As well, his comment that R v. W was good jurisprudence was ludicrous. I don’t care that he may have had a decent team behind him – I don’t trust him to choose judges. It isn’t the abortion issue at stake here, it is the attitude toward jurisprudence that is scary. If he thinks that Roe was correctly decided, he either doesn’t know what he is talking about or has completely different views on the proper roles of judges than do most conservatives.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            To be calling him fiscally conservative is to be unclear on the concept.

          • writeblock

            Of course he is a fiscal conservative! He’s a supply sider, a Reaganite–and he proved it consistently by lowering taxes every chance he got, by selling off municipal properties, by closing down useless agencies and consolidating others, by firing useless bureaucrats, by not buying into the race pimping that gave unfair leverage to minorities or unions, by fighting the liberal establishment tooth and nail to put NYC in the black for the first time in decades–all this while lowering crime in the city more than any other big city–percentage-wise–in the nation. Not only this–but it was Rudy who sent Ivan Boesky and Michael Milken to prison. He was able to do this because of his knowledge of high finance and how Wall Street functions–or is supposed to function. So you’re not dealing with a novice here like DeMint. You’re talking about an impressive guy with a list of achievments under his belt. He fought organized crime, was a staunch pro-Israel advocate, understood the threat of Islamic terrorism while Asst. Attorney General. So he knows what the job entails–and has the brains and the warrior spirit necessary to achieve greatness.

            Does he have flaws? Sure. Is he perfect? No. Did he have a messy divorce? Definitely. Is he pure on the social issues? No. But he’s REAL. What you see is what you get. He brings blue states to the table in any potential election, together with the gift of articulating conservative principles. That’s more than most would do.

          • writeblock

            …Rudy was a strong law-and-order guy who sided with NYC cops on this issue. Reducing street violence was a prime motive for his perspective–and he did achieve this, making NY the safest big city in America. But he admitted it was a cultural thing with him–and pledged to do nothing to oppose gun ownership if elected. So it was always a moot point. He was never pro-active on the social issues.

          • writeblock

            …He was not pro-active on the abortion issue, but he did sue gun manufacturers and call the NRA “extremists” at one point in his tenure as mayor. He tried to mollify this as a presidential candidate by appearing before the NRA to make peace and to pledge support for the second amendment. He was well received I think. Or at least he went far in mollifying gun-owners’ fears about him on this issue. He was in a tough position and I think the NRA appreciated this.

          • dpaitsel

            Maybe a majority of Americans are “pro-life,” but who seriously believes abortion is a major issue a majority of Americans actually care about? America is hemorrhaging jobs and the government is burying us under a mountain of debt that will strip us and future generations not only of economic prosperity, but of the ability to maintain any kind of financial security whatsoever.

            Throwing a fiscally conservative candidate under the bus because of ABORTION makes no sense! Yeah, let’s alienate people who might otherwise be with us on the size and scope of government by rubbing abortion in people’s faces.

            So what if abortion is all tied up with lax sexual morals? Last time I checked, teaching (and propping up) Judeo-Christian morality was the job of parents and organized religion, not government. How’s THAT for strict constructionist?

          • tcgeol

            Nice. I don’t think that you are going to get much support for that here.
            I can understand that it isn’t your priority, but you went way past that.

          • dpaitsel

            Sorry if I got a little confrontational there, but I don’t believe focusing on abortion or sexual morality get us anywhere. It plays with the Christian Right, but it also alienates a lot of people who are otherwise fiscally conservative. Many, many people support a limited federal government, but they get scared away by the prospect of Pat Robertson types passing judgment on their personal lives.

            And it also plays into MSM stereotypes about conservatives – and that allows them to distract voters from serious issues where majorities OPPOSE Dem policies. Ever notice how it’s always the media who inserts abortion questions into presidential debates – even when it hasn’t been an issue in the campaign itself?

            One other thing: if my daughter were to become pregnant accidentally, I would want her to have that option. I’m sure it would be a difficult decision, but I wouldn’t appreciate pro-life activists insinuating themselves into the situation.

          • penguin2

            I think that is the one thing that stands out to me, every time I hear that someone is “fiscally conservative” but socially liberal. Basically I do not see how the two fit. Socially liberal in this country means social programs; results of the Lyndon B. Johnson and Democrats Great Society. Planned Parenthood, welfare checks, ADC – a program to support the children that the government managed to make dependent on society when they began to break up the family. Nothing like replacing parents with bureaucracy….

            In fact, it is an oxymoron. Where does fiscal conservatism come from if you have social programs? Unless you are thinking of gutting the military, now that would be what the Left and libertarians seem to want.

            But back to your point about abortion “what kind of economic future will the little tykes have?” Go ahead, value money over life, it is obvious to me that you would have difficulty understanding how priceless those things are which cannot be bought. Love, family, friends, societal bonds, connectedness to someone and something greater than ourselves. No bank account will ever give an individual or a nation, that. Life is priceless, and to devalue it and trivialize it is the road the Left wants us to be on.

            Remember, a Leftist society will ask the same question when it comes to the disabled, the elderly; socially liberal will be looking for cost saving measures….eventually, if the political stars line up a certain way, other undesirables will be put aside. Perhaps you cannot fathom such a thing, but just look back at the last century and think about it.

          • penguin2

            I just typed a comment to you and now your name shows as DRayRaven. My post above is to you, but I thought it had said dpaitsel.

            P.S. careful about slapping at the “Christian Right” – that is attacking faith based groups, and many of us here do adhere to Judaic-Christian core principles and beliefs. Our country was founded on same. We also have people here who may not be affiliated with those particular faiths, but are agreement with the core principles.

          • aesthete

            what the terms, “Christian right” and “far right” are meant to signify, besides a general distaste of Christianity or rightist thought on the part of the speaker. I’m a Christian, and can be said to be broadly “on the right”, but I support gay marriage (or more specifically, I support replacing government-sponsored marriage with civil unions), and don’t consider myself much of a social conservative (I see the pro-life issue as one of protection of rights, not in terms of specific morality or nostalgia for some prior social arrangement). Such terms, IMO, are meant only to prevent debate, not to further it.

            I do have to disagree wrt social conservatism = fiscal conservatism, or with the idea that one completes the other. Social conservatives often demand broad government intervention, and such intervention can oftentimes be as bad as what “socially leftist” groups have demanded, such as the federal ban of online gambling which passed with Republican support under Bush, smoking taxes and regulation, the “War on Drugs” (complete with fascist-inspired “war” terminology), faith-based initiatives, and “blue laws” in some Southern states. Suffice it to say, the social conservatism of the 80′s, which with the exception of the War on Drugs, looked to repeal the excesses of the Civil Rights and free love movement, is not the social conservatism of today, which in the wake of its successes seems to me to be more about using government to artificially restore a mythologized “simpler time” through regulation, taxes, and federal programs.

          • penguin2

            who is now DRayRaven. Most of the time that I see someone use that term, it is tends to be meant in a derogatory manner or intent. It just does not sit well as it frequently used by those seeking to put down those they perceive in this group. I am going to leave it open ended on who may or may not be in it, as I don’t even think the “Christian Right” refers to themselves that way. I could be wrong.

            As for your second paragraph, there is a lot there, and I always respect your ideas and input. I agree that social conservative does not equal fiscal conservative, but I do think the possibility of the two being closer in principle is there; vs fiscal conservative being able to align with socially liberal. I’ll have to learn and think on this some more.

          • DRayRaven

            I changed my display name – it’s still dpaitsel (the person).

            Anyway, I never said I was socially liberal. I would describe myself as socially libertarian – and I don’t support any of the social programs you listed.

            Not only do I abhor government intervention in the market, I also abhor government officials who believe they have a duty to interfere in personal lives.

            As a regular church-goer, I have no antipathy toward Christians, either. I am one – maybe I’m not a Pat Robertson style fundamentalist, but I am still a Christian.

            As such, I believe it is up to churches (and parents) to teach personal morality. Government, with its corruption and self-serving power-hungry elitism is the LAST institution that should interfere.

            Also, arguments about abortion, self-righteous condemnations of popular culture, and tut-tutting over people’s sex lives do little to advance limited government. For one thing, it’s contradictory. We’re for limited government EXCEPT when it comes to sex and reproduction? I’m for limited government in BOTH cases.

            Incidentally, I disapprove of the left’s moralizing about SUVs, smoking, and political correctness, too. All in all, there are too many politicians on both sides of the aisle attempting to tell us how we should think, feel, and behave.

            For another, all this moralizing alienates large numbers of voters who otherwise agree with us about smaller government. No one wants the President to be Preacher-in-Chief.

            Personally, I would be more apt to support a fiscal conservative/social libertarian than a fiscal liberal/social conservative like Huckabee. What’s the point of winning a moral argument if we lose our liberty to big government?

          • penguin2

            I was only pointing out that there are many who call themselves fiscal conservatives and socially liberal and I find that to be an oxymoron. Someone will have to define for me what a social libertarian is. Also, if you note, I remarked about your use of the term Christian Right, which implies a negative connotation.

            2) And the thrust of my reply to you was really your remark in your post title:

            “You can win the abortion debate, but what kind of economic future will the little tykes have?”

            You use of the word “moralizing” again implies something negative. I don’t think it is “moralizing” to discuss taking the life of another human being, and those that see it in as trivial a manner as you stated, are in just as great a peril for the loss of liberty. It really does not matter what size the government, if it allows the defenseless among us to be killed.

          • DRayRaven

            I view it as a negative when it becomes a campaign theme. We are electing government officials, not religious figures.

            To be fair, the media often makes abortion as a campaign theme (for example, by asking abortion questions in a presidential debate out of the clear blue sky), and they do it precisely BECAUSE it alienates so many voters.

            The problem I see with your argument is that ending abortion will require government action on the federal level. First, Roe v. Wade has to be overturned. Fine. That’s up to the courts. Then abortion would become a state matter. To end it altogether, the federal government would have to pass legislation to override state law.

            Another problem I have with your argument: I don’t think the state has a legitimate interest in protecting the life of a fetus that outweighs the mother’s decision as to whether or not to have a child. Yes, you can argue about responsibility and safe sex all you want, but the fact remains that accidents happen. To me, dictating a decision like that is the very definition of intrusive, oppressive government.

            Now…when the fetus becomes viable, I’m right there with you. More than enough time has passed for the mother to make a decision, and since the fetus CAN live outside the womb, the state has an interest in protecting it.

            To me, all the arguments about when life begins are very faith-based and outside the realm of government concern. We can, however, determine when viability begins – and it makes sense for balancing decisions concerning rights of the mother vs. rights of the unborn.

          • penguin2

            with each breakthrough in medical technology, I assume you would then agree that laws need to be revisited to make sure we are not killing any “viable” infants?

            I wanted to think on your response overnight; a couple of points:

            “The problem I see with your argument is that ending abortion will require government action on the federal level. First, Roe v. Wade has to be overturned. Fine. That?s up to the courts. Then abortion would become a state matter. To end it altogether, the federal government would have to pass legislation to override state law.”

            My response to you on this, since it was legislative/court action that legalized abortion to be with – meaning government, of course I would expect legislative/court action to reverse it. The government came along and said it is the right of others to destroy life, I want the government to withdraw that permission.

            More importantly, you said this, and this certainly is a short-sighted view of life, the world and society. If you do not think that the state has a vested or legitimate interest in protecting future generations, be prepared for mankind to die out.

            “I don?t think the state has a legitimate interest in protecting the life of a fetus that outweighs the mother?s decision as to whether or not to have a child.”

            And your last line actually supports the entire argument AGAINST
            abortion, you’ll notice you used these words….

            “rights of the mother vs. rights of the unborn.”

            This country was founded upon morally based principles, Judaic-Christian; the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence speak to “inalienable rights” the Founding Fathers set it up that way. So while you may scoff at our morality based principles regarding this issue, I believe that the Constitution protects innocent babies.

    • Darin_H

      It’s also only $15 billion. Yes I know, that actually is a lot of money, but in the context of DC and the Trillion Dollar President, it’s a small price to pay to have an R senator from MA.

      • Scope

        it’s the fact that Republicans are still supporting spending bills. The debt is one of the main issues to the voters. This adds to it, and, to the disgust of the Republicans that go along with it. Yes, I know, we are in the age of trillions, however, not many Americans think $15 billion is a drop in the bucket.

        • Darin_H

          It was passing anyways thanks to the Maine Twins and Crybaby from Ohio. I just can’t get that worked up over this bill, especially since there was an $85B bill on the table that republicans were going to support before Reid changed it.

          • Dan McLaughlin

            it stinks, but it’s politics.

          • Flagstaff

            We saved $70 billion!” Blondienomics.

            And as Glenn Beck talked about today, the “something” (I can’t remember the name) window. We don’t want it, but they threaten to extract $85 billion, so we rationalize that $15 billion isn’t that bad!

            For some reason, the party’s leaders decided this battle wasn’t worth fighting.

            And some people wonder what Beck was talking about on Saturday.

          • Darin_H

            but I suspect you knew that.

          • Flagstaff

            What is your evidence for this?:

            “there was an $85B bill on the table that republicans were going to support before Reid changed it.”

            I am glad we have a Republican Senator from Massachusetts. He will vote with the Maine twins, probably most of the time; it’s to be expected, although it may not be in his best interest. I’m more concerned that they all, including Kit Bond, gave Ben Nelson cover (one never knows what’s going on in Voinovich’s mind). And although I frequently disagree with Scope, whether I write it or not, I believe that whenever any Republican supports a new spending bill, or votes to let the Democrats pass one (as voting for cloture does), it hurts the party and the country.

            …After watching the tape, it’s the “Overton” window. I don’t know where he got it.

          • Darin_H

            I was under the assumption that Republicans would have supported the ‘bipartisan’ Baucus & Grassley bill because all the reports said they would, but I should have known better. The media got me, in looking it up no one on the R side ever put out their name saying they supported it other than Grassley.

            I’m still not worked up over a moderate Republican defecting on the $15B bill. Yeah he gave cover to Ben Nelson. And the mood of the country is “STOP SPENDING!!!” so I’m with you that they are on the wrong side anytime they are voting to increase spending.

  • 77redcounties

    one pass. In the back of my mind I felt a little uneasy, will watch this down the road and see if it goes left or right at the fork.

    • audax

      because there will be many more votes like this for Brown, and guess which “side” he will be on…the side of bigger government and more spending.

    • http://www.mysimplehomegarden.com tbaleno

      As MA senator. I expect him to side with Dems a lot. He got elected with 52% of the vote or something like that. How many were conservatives? I’m guessing 20%.

      Every vote against a bad bill is 1 more vote that we wouldn’t have if Coakely had won.

      Now, the first time I heard “should Scott Brown run for president.” I told my wife “I won’t vote for him.” He makes a good Senator from MA. But he is too liberal for me to vote for as president.

      Don’t be angry at votes he casts that we don’t like. They would have been voted on by his opponent anyway. Applaud every time he votes for what you want. Thats a vote we wouldn’t have had.

  • sta46

    Jim Demint comprises my entire short list for 2012 and I’d be curious to know why he isn’t on the list in this article. He’s principled, conservative and forthright. He’s got the spine to go all in for conservative candidates like Rubio when the RINOS are still dancing all around Crist. I think Demint is one of the very few (if not the only one) who could rally both the Conservative/moderate repubs and the Tea Partiers thus denying the Dems their collective wet dream of a third party candidate spliting the votes. I’d like to see him at the top of the ticket in 2012 along with Pence for VP. McConnell and Bennett don’t like Demint because he is doing Mc Connell’s job for him… I personally consider that to be an endorsement .

    • Dan McLaughlin

      That’s at least 2 1/2 strikes against him right there.

      • Richard Mullins

        might have been tossed out the window. Dan,I like the short list of Governors but I’m sure Perry has seen the Texas Monthly issue with the headline “Perry for President in 2012″. Honestly, that leftist rag would love to get rid him so they might get a leftist(most likely as Lt Governor).

        • Dan McLaughlin

          1. A Senator can win a presidential race if he runs against someone who’s been a Senator longer than he has.

          2. Senators make lousy presidents.

          • Richard Mullins

            are even worse(as evidenced by our election thief of a Senator-President, LBJ). I’m sure that 2012 is more likely to be a Governor(I really admire Jindal , I’m even working on starting an Airline there[manuals are the holdup]). I like Barbour a lot and I wouldn’t mind him running.

          • Dan McLaughlin

            LBJ was a very effective president, at least on domestic policy. His policies were terrible but he was very good at getting them enacted. His problems on foreign policy were another matter.

          • writeblock

            Rudy without the social issues baggage. Smart. A fiscal genius. A first rate executive.

      • sta46

        however the single focus in all of this is to field a candidate who will be able to pull ALL the conservative votes and a significant portion of the moderates and independants. Without that “someone” we will lose based simply on the numbers and if this marxist/lefty/raaaacist gets another term we are all doomed in perpetuity.

    • writeblock

      Sure he has conservative credentials. But what we need is somebody who will begin to roll back the tide–a reformer. DeMint is a fine conservative and functions well where he is but I wouldn’t have confidence in him as president. I want an executive-reformer, somebody with a track record who will crack skulls to get things done, somebody will cut entitlements, fire bureaucrats, consolidate agencies, balance the budget–and still fight the war on terror.

      • sta46

        with all those requirements, stellar though they may be.
        the only one on this list who is not a total SNOOZE is Barbour.DeMint at least has excellent conservative creds and is demonstrably willing to buck his own party “leaders” (waste of time though they may be) to do the right, true and conservative thing.
        has anyone noticed how many names on this list have been bandied around by the MSM as people the gop should run in 2012? why do you think the msm does this? Perhaps to “champion” for all the millions of sheep in this country someone who cannot possibly win? I, personally, would go with the Anybody But Obama lever in the voting booth, but I’m not sure how many of the sheep subscribe to that premise and this is all going to come down to sheer numbers unless we can field a very outstanding and engaging candidate.
        If that list is the best we can I have to believe that our best hope would lie in a decision by HRC to toss her hat back in the ring.

    • annas

      JIm Demint is my entire short list! What is he not on the list here? He is the only one you can count on to stand up! I want a refund from Scott Brown. He was elected with money and support from conservatives all over this country not just MA! I am angry and disgusted. Who knows–maybe he will vote for Obamacare now!

  • http://www.cityonahillpolitics.blogspot.com/ Bill@cityonahillpolitics

    may have been a “none of the above” vote, but how can anyone seriously consider the man for the office in 2012? He’s got some good points, and certainly is feisty, but why isn’t there much chatter about the man’s age?

    He’s already 74 and there are still 2 years to go before the next election. Good lord, we don’t need a 76 year old candidate for president!

    • Brian_Roastbeef

      So you’re ruling out a second chance for McCain? :p

      • Scope

        and I guarantee he’ll never ever get another shot if he was 40. If Paul ran again, it would be his third shot, and, I can also guarantee he doesn’t have a chance in heck.

      • Duke

        if I had the opportunity I’d rule out a FIRST chance for McLame!

    • patriot_til_death

      So…Ron Paul wins the straw poll and Republicans boo him.

      Many think Paul is a “kook” when it comes to foreign policy, freedom, liberty and taxes so I’m seeking a few answers to some serious questions.

      How do Conservatives detest Democrats, Liberals and Progressives that say the Constitution is a living, breathing document but when it comes to foreign policy state the world has changed so our Constitutional mandates on foreign policy should also?

      How can Conservatives say they want a smaller, less intrusive government and lower taxes, yet want that same small, less intrusive governmemt to influence or attack other countries that we feel may be a future threat?

      Can we fund every war and police action without bankrupting our country and lower taxes?

      How do Conservatives talk of freedom and liberty, yet deny freedom and liberty to homosexuals to follow their version of religion that allows gay marriage?

      Also, why is freedom and liberty off limits to someone who wants to grow and smoke marijuana in their home but not to someone who brews and drinks home-made beer?

      If not the Fair Tax, then what other tax system would be better and why?

      Our foreign policy should be one of fair trade but influencing another country’s political outcome is creating the need to be the world’s police and we can’t afford it.

      I’m not trying to be condescending or belittle anyone’s belief, I’m just trying to understand how Conservatives want small, domestically less intrusive, fiscally responsible government yet fund policing the world and influence political outcomes of other countries.

      To me, it’s like saying you’re to sick to go to the doctor. Conservatives say they want this country to return to practicing our Founding Father’s constitution, yet, the only politician that has ever been consistent in holding true to its mandates is booed.

      • mbecker908

        You would be the one WITHOUT the bat.

        • mbecker908
        • patriot_til_death

          LOL…I have a hard head, you’ll break your hand before my head feels a bruise.

          • mbecker908

            You’re a RonPaul supporter, you have nothing above your shoulders but rock.

          • patriot_til_death

            So far, other than be insulting, you haven’t given one intelligent reply as to why you don’t support the constitution.

            Just answer this one question if you can. Do you think we should attack Iran since they decided to pursue a nuclear bomb?

            It seems many think Ron Paul is a kook for not wanting to.

        • patriot_til_death

          America, we’re not Imperialist, we just want to rule the world with small government and low taxes.

      • RottDawg
      • bs

        this

        And re-read it if you’ve already seen it. Based on recent postings, I wouldn’t be surprised if it sprung back to life.

        • bs

          Here it is again:

          Right here.

          • Dan McLaughlin

            you were just playing a really cruel head game with an invisible link.

          • bs
          • mbecker908

            I mean, it’s not like they’re gonna actually understand anything anyway.

          • antisocial

            .

          • mbecker908
        • patriot_til_death

          Interesting that you write an article about Ron Paul but won’t allow discussion of Ron Paul unless it is to dismiss him as a kook.

          I didn’t realize this site was exclusive to hypocrites that love sound bytes of Freedom, Liberty, smaller government, fiscal responsibility and all things constitutional but can’t back it up with intelligent debate.

          You sound like a bunch of whining liberals from Huffington Post.

          Just keep in mind, you can’t beat the Democrats without us and we will prove it every election.

          I’ll remove myself from your e-mail updates.

          • bs
      • Finrod

        THAT’s why we can’t follow the libertarian ‘stick our head in the sand’ regarding other countries.

        Maybe you were asleep that day. Then I’d suggest you read up about it. It was a big world-changing day and you’d best be informed about it.

        The thing is, I’m about as libertarian as you can go and still be a conservative Republican. I actually agree with you regarding marijuana and the FairTax, and have been a long proponent of civil unions for the gay & lesbian type just because arguing about marriage is a subject that is mostly just hurting both sides.

        But 2001/09/11 should have proved once and for all that we can’t go ignoring radicals in other countries that want to kill us. We have a moral obligation to militarily support our friends in other countries and give our enemies there #3||, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, or anywhere.

        And both you and Ron Paul are blithering fools for thinking otherwise.

        • patriot_til_death

          You got it wrong. If Libertarians had been in charge, 9/11 would have happened. period. We would not have had been meddling in the middle-east as we do today. We would have been the world’s police and made ourselves a target of hatred.

          Also, had we been attacked by Osama Bin Laden. We would not have let him flee to Pakistan.

          • blooch

            or just some marbles?

          • aesthete

            If being interventionist/mean to a country means that should expect “blowback”, then why don’t we have more Canadian, Mexican, and Spanish insurgents perpetrating acts of terror on our soil? If anything, most of the countries where the US had expansionist/”imperialist” designs are now some of our closest allies. And if anything, our foreign policy during the Cold War was supportive of radical Islamists, because of their opposition to the Soviets in many regions (which, btw, was a perfectly reasonable policy at the time, and which, IMO, was the right thing to do during the Cold War). That you think that US involvement in the ME is the main cause of current hostilities is a testament to our defunct educational facilities.

          • patriot_til_death

            I’m missing Conservatives that actually believe in our Constitution.

          • patriot_til_death

            We need a policy of Imperialism to create allies. Hmmmmm…wonder why those Islamists don’t like us now? I guess somebody forgot to tell them they are suppose to be our allies.

            Let’s see, I’m naive because I’m not for a smaller less intrusive, fiscally responsible government that meddles in other countries affairs. After all we can afford to be make friends with everyone we go to war with. I guess we aren’t buddies until we kill each other first.

          • aesthete

            I didn’t say what my position vis a vis foreign policy, or whether I agree with Ron Paul or not. I simply stated that you are wrong in your blithe assertion that 9/11 wouldn’t have happened with a libertarian foreign policy, and with the idea that we are a “target of hatred” solely because of our enhanced role on the world stage since the 40s. That, and not a belief in interventionism, is why you’re na?ve (though now that you mention it, isolationism in a nuclear world *is* pretty asinine).

          • patriot_til_death

            Osama bin Ladin repeatedly stated that the presence of American forces on the holy ground of the Arabian Peninsula was a primary reason for 9/11.

            Half the world hates us because of interventionism. We would never allow another country to operate a base on our soil.

            I never said isolationism would be our policy, rather, we would be part of a unanimous world effort like Afghanistan or the Gulf War. As a matter of fact, I would even go as far to say that our role would be from the air and other countries can provide boots on the ground.

            I think you are naive to believe we can afford to invade then rebuild every country we destroy.

            How is attacking every country we think may do something will not make us a target?

            Acting like a bully in a nuclear world is real naive. Everyone will say we had it coming.

            Everyone knows if you mess with us, we’re going to kick your butt. We don’t have to act like we are the world’s dad.

          • Richard Mullins

            I think I’ll add some pictures later.

          • HappyBunny

          • eburke

            We’ve missed you!!

            What a better use of your time than to show up on a Paultard post!

            Make sure becker gives you an extra carrot tonight.

          • patriot_til_death

            I win. You have nothing but funny pictures (keep them coming) because you can’t intelligently debate the facts.

            You want smaller, less intrusive government for yourselves and a busy-body government for every other country, ready to attack if they don’t capitulate.

            You also want it done on the cheap because being the police of the world shouldn’t cost that much and God knows, we need to lower taxes.

            Destroying countries then pouring billions to re-build them while our economy tanks is the smart conservative way to go. Got it!

            Good luck with all that. See you in the soup line or the draft line.

            When will the Free-Tibet War start? We have a moral obligation, you know?

            When are we going to attack Russia? We would be naive to allow them to hit us with a nuclear bomb first.

            What are we doing to overthrow Chavez? Oh, we’re buying oil from him,, never-mind.

            Quick, let’s attack Communist Cuba, they have one of our naval bases surrounded.

            OK, that’s enough. I want to see some more pics, they’re pretty funny. You guys do have a smarta$$ sense of humor I can appreciate.

          • eburke

            those of your ilk have shown the inability to do so…so becker chose to mock instead.

            Pearls before swine and all that.

          • blooch

            telling other countries what to do on the ground is kind of, like, dadly, isn’t it? I mean, don’t you hate it when your dad yells down at you from the top of the basement stairs?

          • aesthete

            Oh wait, then we’d be “hovering”, and parents aren’t supposed to hover.

            Yeah, I couldn’t resist the cheesy pun :)

          • blooch

            I spend way too much time volunteering at school, but it keeps the staff on their toes WRT indoctrination on extraneous BS. And it’s amusing to be a fly on the wall after school and hear the teachers talk amongst themselves. When they’re not talking about “The Bachelor”, they’re ripping into bureaucratic incompetence and tyranny.

            Tomorrow i will be having a friendly chat with my daughter’s teacher about being chided for the smoke coming from my grill. I won’t be flying the Apache, though. It’ll be the Blackhawk, since I’m picking up the squad. ; )

          • Finrod

            .. shows how insanely hopelessly naive you are.

            Islamists will attack us as long as we exist. Sure they’ll make up excuses that weak-minded fools like you will believe, but in the end it’s our very existence as a free country that does not accept Islamic law that compels them to attack us.

            And the fact that you could even talk about a ‘unanimous world effort’ makes me laugh so hard that my sides hurt.

            Go back to playing with your toys and let the adults run foreign policy.

          • Trelaina
          • aesthete

            <img src=”http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Business/images/kool-aid-man.jpg”

          • aesthete

          • Richard Mullins

            I hope this works or my faith in the Text formatting toolbar is shattered.

          • Richard Mullins
          • blooch
          • Richard Mullins

            I’ll try again.

            I think it should work this time and write down the address of this pic for further use.

          • blooch

            for parrot_til_death…whoops, just put on my reading glasses, and that’s patriot…my bad.

          • Richard Mullins

            and I think parrot_til_death sounds right for him. I think we should meet, like Austin in August? I’m not quite sure what’s happening 600+ miles away from Spring.

          • aesthete

            Hate to see an appropriate picture languish in my amateur hands :)

          • patriot_til_death

            Truth gets old I know, especially when you can’t counter it with any good arguments, just insults or name-calling.

            I like the pics. More pics please.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            Since you think so little of us, I’ll do you a favor.

      • antisocial

        While some of his economic theories sound good most of it is garbage. You think Congress should be running the monetary policy and not the Fed? Ron Paul thinks that is how it should be. That is the primary reason I call him a Kook.

        If it was upto you and Ron Paul, I would be speaking Japanese. And you would be working in a labor camp. That is another reason I think Ron Paul is a kook.

        And yes I think we American military should invade Iran. Actually bomb those nuts to stone age. Ron Paul and yourself think we should bury head in sand.

        You think its a great idea to grow poppy in backyards?

        PS: Pauliction is a dangerous disease. Seek medical help.

        • patriot_til_death

          Hardly, Congress does run the monetary policy in secrecy through the Fed Reserve. If we eliminate the Reserve, we eliminate the secrecy.

          Why would be speaking Japanese? That makes no sense. There nothing in the Libertarian platform that says our military should be weak. That is why the military backs Ron Paul over many Republicans.

          Do you think it’s a great idea to drink alcohol in backyards? What you you do on your property is none of my business and what I do on mine is none of yours.

          • gekster

            then you make what your doing in your back yard my buisiness

          • patriot_til_death

            OK…so we need to appoint ourselves to be in everyone’s backyard but no one better be in ours, right?

            That should work out real good. If you throw a bomb in my backyard, it will be the last one you ever throw.

            China and Russia have tons of bombs in their backyard. When can we lower taxes and go attack them?

          • Achance
          • patriot_til_death

            Just tell him why he is wrong in wanting to follow the Constitution. Tell him that…

          • gekster

            Whhaaattt.

            Where did you pick that cherry from?

          • Achance

            Didn’t you get the memo?

          • gekster

            I’m beginning to see that.

        • patriot_til_death

          Instead of calling Ron Paul a kook, tell me where he differs from our Constitution.

      • http://www.mysimplehomegarden.com tbaleno

        NT

        • patriot_til_death

          Yeah, I guess our Founding Fathers were called the same.

          • Richard Mullins

            most leftists. I can equate him with those people know as Anti’s(I sorry about talking on religious things). The Anti’s typically want to take exactly from the bible what there and nothing else. Mr Paul sort of fits that model. The Constitution is a flexible document that can amended to add things along the way. Our Founding fathers might have not known that we would need large armies in the future but they never stopped from happening. I’m sure they knew that liberty was contagious but didn’t think we’d have to go war help with people freedom. I take it that you might not understand the constitution as well.

          • antisocial

            You are too far from reality.

          • antisocial

            More proof that he is a kook (if any was needed)….

            From Hot Air

        • Scope

          Kook you! Isn’t that a racial slur?

    • patriot_til_death

      He doesn’t have any known health problems that I’m aware of but I’m not 100% sure. I figure it would be constantly mentioned by the media if he did.

      Besides, if Obamacare is passed, I hear we will all live forever.

      • mbecker908

        • Dan McLaughlin

          nt

      • Scope

        which is about the level of your intelligence and nievete.

  • tngal

    As per The Hill :

    “I’m leaning to being undecided,” Paul said during an interview on CNBC. “But I think it is significant and it does get me excited.”

    http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/82641-ron-paul-undecided-on-2012-run-after-cpac-victory

    Mr Paul, if I may, let me help you with your indecision. Uhh, ummm, well..No. Don’t. Forget it. And as to the excitement, back off any little blue pills you might be taking.

  • archer52

    Well that was fun, making Brown out to be something he wasn’t.

    Good job.

    At least he isn’t Ted, which is what we should have been content with. Oh, and the “Brown for 2012″ is probably dead, you think?

    We cannot expect anything different from Mass.

    • antisocial

      Let’s not try to make him a superstar. If he can oppose critical big ticket items (Cap-And-Raid/HealthScare/Card-Check), we should be ok. Other than that don’t expect too much. Actually we’d be lucky if he would stick with us on all three.

      If he is lucky he will get reelected. Even McCain is grovelling before the electorate today. That should serve as a lesson for him. Actually for all Republicans.

      From Dan’s list I like Mitch Daniels and Rick Perry. Lets wait and watch. 2010 is the first battle to win.

      • writeblock

        …is another with first rate credentials. Wouldn’t mind Chris Christie throwing his hat in the ring either–though it’s too soon for him I know. Governors make better presidents.

        • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • C.S. McCoy

    It’s looking more and more likely that he’ll run. He has a proven track record of reducing the size of government and has shown that he can stick to his principles, as evidenced by his use of the veto over 750 times during his 8-year tenure. He’s more mainstream than Paul and could bridge the gap between more mainstream Republicans and the Libertarians. He’ll probably soak up much of the Ron Paul crowd, assuming Paul doesn’t run.

    • Scope

      and rightfully so. They both take NO to the extreme.

      • aesthete

        He’s a good, no-nonsense governor who has experience cutting government and reforming constituent-based services (Medicaid, in his case). He’s also a pretty smart guy. I wouldn’t rule him out.

        • mbecker908

          He’s actually got a real record, unlike Ron Paul.

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        Some of us wish more Republicans would say no more often.

        Paul’s problems are in his kookiness and in his total lack of accomplishments.

    • audax

      Wasn’t there something a few years ago about Johnson being a dope smoker?? Please correct me on this if he is not. Thanks

  • kcdude

    Just a few short months ago, people on this site were told, in a not so nice way, to focus on 2010 and not 2012. I did not think it was bad advice then and I think the same advice should be applied to this post. There is nothing wrong with what was written in this post, it is just not where our focus needs to be. The makeup of the Congress should remain the main issue.

  • http://www.inthisdimension.com inthisdimension

    I sent Brown money – from CA – to win in MA. Just got a nice Thank You in the mail yesterday.

    I’d like a refund, please.

    Anyone who thinks that the government can create jobs at best belongs in the Democrat party, and at worst, does not understand Econ 101(A), and has no business being in government.

    • Darin_H

      Dude. He’s the 41st vote against Obamacare, if that’s all he EVER is, your donation was well spent. Did you think he’d have the voting record of Coburn or Demint???? He’s going to be the triplet to the Maine Twins.

      • bs

        how I described him. I think he may wind up with a slightly higher ACU rating than the Maine twins, as I think he’s a bit more fiscally conservative. But I wouldn’t expect more than maybe a 65% from him.

        As Nick says below, you can expect little more.

      • Dan McLaughlin

        and Porkulus, which was many, many times the size of this petty-theft jobs bill.

        Perspective, people. Brown is a Senator. Senators exist to disappoint the public. But he’s an enormous improvement over Ted Kennedy in so many ways you’d be here until 2037 listing them all.

        • basalt_conservative

          Perspective, as Dan McLaughlin so properly points out, is the key word here.

          Having a Republican win “Kennedy’s seat” was a major accomplishment, and demolished the left’s blatant attempt at replacing Kennedy with another lib/socialist. To me, that single election result was the sweetest I have seen since Reagan stomped Mondale in 1984.

          Senator Brown will disappoint in future votes, you can be sure, but if he continues to oppose Obamacare and Cap’N'Tax as he promised, I am content with him (for now). He’s from Massachusetts, for heaven’s sakes!!!

          Now, let’s go get Patty Murray…the yes-woman of the Pacific Northwest!

    • Nick Haynes

      expect a 95% conservative voting record from a state that hasn’t had a Republican senator in my lifetime (and for the record, I hit the ‘Dirty 30′ this year), and only a few Republican reps over that same timespan.

      Listen, I would love–LOVE–for Scott Brown to come out like DeMint or Coburn, but at the end of the day, understand one thing: If he’s with us on only 3 out of every 10 votes, that’s 3 out of every 10 votes more than we would have had with Coakley. He is from a liberal state, and so he has a different constituency to represent (you know, representation, that thing that our Congresscritters are supposed to do for us). And, if we want a chance to keep his seat or even expand on the Massachusetts Republican delegation, we’ll have to give him some leniency.

      Or, you can get nice and comfy being in the minority, since you’ll still have your principles. Myself? I’d rather have my principles and be in a position to actually implement them.

      • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

        Part of the purpose of putting a Republican in there is to demonstrate to the MA electorate that having someone who isn’t a complete liberal represent them may not be so bad. Get ‘em used to the idea.

        But 7 out of 10 would probably be too much a shock to the system, too soon.

  • http://xmmlbchat.blogspot.com katesmith

    I understand no one will be on the right side 100% of the time. But this is the type of issue people came to Massachusetts from all over the country to prevent. The day after the election, the Financial Times said Scott Brown’s election stopped cap and trade. The Beltway was said to be totally deflated. Everything came to a halt. How quickly that has reversed. The health bill is back on, cap and trade is coming back, etc. It’s as if nothing happened. The Beltway somehow learned they had nothing to fear. Massachusetts residents who were sure Scott was different, he would not disappoint, are probably not happy. Huge victory for the left in terms of timing and symbolism.

    • eburke
    • togaman

      They are a fairly liberal lot in general, and it was mainly independents who voted him in. He said he would vote against the Health care reform bill so people made a large leap in logic to assume that he would vote the straight party line in every instance without evaluating each act before on it’s own individual merits. Much of this relatively small jobs bill is made up of tax breaks for small businesses, so it is not surprising that a moderate republican from a liberal state would go for it.

      It is probably more accurate that the people who are most surprised and disappointed are the conservatives throughout the country (and indeed even here at Redstate) who were just so thrilled to have an R take Ted Kennedy’s old seat that they went way overboard with their reaction to what had actually happened.
      There was an unreasonable giddiness that somehow an inept campaign by a Dem nominee t coupled with a charismatic moderate Republican nominee somehow meant that Obama and the Dems would simply roll over and play dead. There was a LOT of wishful projection that Scott Brown would somehow magically become a force for conservative action in congress, Those were never realistic assumptions.

      • http://www.mysimplehomegarden.com tbaleno

        When I see people spouting “I want my money back” I put them in the same camp that voted for Obama for his charisma. If you didn’t know what you were giving money too you were just as ill informed.

        I’m very conservative. I voted for Scott Brown and I’d do it again for US senator from MASSACHUSETTS. But don’t for one second think I’d vote for him for president. I know where he stands for the most part. I know we probably agree on maybe 60% of the issues. I’m okay with that. Someone like me wouldn’t stand a chance of getting elected in this state. So I vote for the candidate as far right as I think would be electable in this state.

  • swamphermit

    Yes, still a ways to go on that one; however, I think Palin will decide who it will be. I’m hoping her support has grown enough by then, that she runs. I don’t like Huckabee, Brown or Paul, and am not that high on Romney (probably can’t attract the Christian vote anyway). Don’t know much about Chris Christie, but do love that ‘CUTS’ speech he recently gave.

    First, 2010…

  • mriggio

    trying to shove down the country’s throat, arm up for the November elections, and let 2012 take care of itself for now. I haven’t the foggiest notion who I’ll favor for the presidential nomination, not worried about it one bit. Scott Brown’s election was an incredible psychological blow to the opposition; beyond that, he’s doing what he said, representing his state the best he sees fit. Let’s keep that sense of perspective and not start going off the deep end like the other side does. One victory at a time, nice and easy now, conservatives in the primaries, Republicans in the General, remember?

  • Flagstaff

    I went back to the pre-2008 election installments. I started as a fairly strong Romney guy, but one who understands romney has problems. You explicated them very well, although not all still apply. Being “not not-Bush” isn’t much of a problem today.

    He does have a “slick” image. This might be a turn-off for some Independents, but it’s something most could get past.

    I find the “only 3 years as a real Governor” a weak argument, especially given your examples. He didn’t do at all badly in those 3 years. And I disagree that his business experience is not much of a plus. It looks even better now, after Mr. Wet-behind-the-Ears Obama. And it dovetails nicely with his record in Mass.

    “No foreign experience” is practically irrelevant, given that hardly anybody but former Presidents, generals, Secretaries of State and CIA heads have real foreign experience. Oh, and former heads of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, but you have to be a Senator to have that.

    Flip-flops. The number can hurt. Theyr’e all in the right direction, so what’s the beef? Insincerity, of course. Could anybody be more insincere than Obama was? We need to quit shooting our own soldiers on the flip-flop, insincerity issues.

    The “core of why he’s running” issue. This is a big problem for me, in a certain way. That is, why is he running as a Republican? Explain it well and it should satisfy most voters.

    Being a Mormon might hurt him in the general election. Again, we need to either remove this from the primary discussion, or deal with it directly. Romney might be the one candidate who really can turn off more voters by his personal situation than it can turn on.

    The killer, however, is your last salvo before the religion page–he isn’t a good campaigner. I agree with most of what you wrote, and it will hurt him in the future as it has hurt him in the past. Although Obama is on the ropes now, he won’t be when campaigning. I think Romney would have done better than McCain did, but maybe not much better.

    Whoever the candidate turns out to be, Romney would make a good VP choice.

  • Adjoran

    Even if he was a placeholder for “undecided at this time,” the publicity only encourages the well-meaning but misguided people who support him, not to mention the many real nut cases among them.

    Paul is two-faced. He plants his earmarks in every spending bill, then votes “no” when it is sure to pass so he can claim to oppose spending.

    He touts gold and the gold standard at every opportunity, although he must surely know there isn’t enough gold in the world to back our currency, and the deflation necessary to ever make the numbers work would wreck our economy. But he’s had most of his personal wealth in gold and gold mining stocks for decades, so anything he can do to push the price up lines his own pockets.

    He was for many years a supporter of “open borders” and ran for President on that platform. His position quietly changed as his district became concerned about illegal immigration.

    Had Paul’s nonsensical “no troops beyond our borders except in a defensive war” been our policy after World War II, the Soviets would have rolled over Europe, Japan, the Middle East – pretty much anything they wanted, since Paulism wouldn’t lift a finger to stop them until they were coming up the Mississippi River in rowboats.

    Besides all that, why would anyone suspect the winner of the CPAC straw poll in 2010 would have any advantage in 2012? Didn’t Mitt Romney win the 2008 edition? How’d that work out for him?

  • JSobieski

    Rehashing arguments about Rudy or he who should not be named divides us unecessarily.

    Stop Obamacare. Sweep the 2010 elections.

    The 2012 election will then work itself out.2tgrf