Scalpel!
Senator Reid’s very qualified and really one of the best press guys in the city, announced yesterday that Senator Reid has filed the paperwork so the he will be able to proceed to the cloture motion on the motion to proceed next week.
This means that if Senator Reid gets 60 votes, he can bring the House bill up before the Senate.
If he does not get 60 votes, no bill comes before the U.S. Senate. Or Senator Reid may do what he did on the Doc fix — the unpaid for $250 billion Medicare spending bill — bring it up so it can fail — and then go back to the backroom to negotiate. Pretty clear and simple, yes?
For more information about what the future for ObamaCare will be, here is today’s video interview with Senator Ben Nelson (D-NE) about his views of the Senate health care bill. Pay attention to the Senator’s quote “it’ll never get here.”
Then, turn off the sound, watch the interviewer and the Senator’s body language. What do you see?
Senator Nelsons mailbox is full so I suggest calling...
JadedByPolitics Wednesday, November 11th at 1:26PM EST (link)his local numbers to THANK HIM for helping to STOP the Congressional horror that is Obamacare!
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy &
does not destroy him is his own enemy
AMEN TO THAT!
clowngirl Wednesday, November 11th at 1:44PM EST (link)I’m not sure what Dan saw in the video but to me Senator Nelson looked like a stubborn cuss who really is going to obstruct this bill. Lots of head shaking - almost throughout reinforcing the message of No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No
That is exactly what
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 2:36PM EST (link)I saw.
Just wanted to make sure I was not seeing things.
Thanks for posting!
If Nelson backs ObamaCare, he knows his career is over
crosley Wednesday, November 11th at 1:38PM EST (link)There is no way a Senator from Nebraska gets away with supporting Obama on this.
There’s about 8 additional Democrat Senators in the same situation where I would bet that a vote for ObamaCare will end their Senate career:
Kent Conrad ND
Byron Dorgan ND
Tim Johnson SD
Blanche Lincoln AR
Mark Pryor AR
Evan Bayh IN
Mark Begich Alaska
Mary Landrieu LA
These Democrats come from REALLY conservative states, and their illusion of being “conservative Democrats” will be shattered.
And about 7 more that will be incredibly vulnerable that are in red states if they vote for this bill:
Mark Warner VA
Jim Webb VA
Jon Tester Montana
Robert Byrd WV
John Rockefeller WV
Claire McCaskill MO
Kay Hagan NC
There’s even more than this, but it gives you a good idea. How many of these politicians are really willing to fall on their sword for Obama to get a win?
Honestly, every Democrat that comes from a red to purple state (which is about half the US Senate) will have problems with their reelection bid after supporting this.
All we need is one to defect. I don’t want to get over-confident, but I think the odds are against it passing the Senate.
But the point is also that
drohan00 Wednesday, November 11th at 1:41PM EST (link)Ben Nelson is truly one of a dying breed. He is a true Conservative Democrat. He is pro-life. He is pro-Second Amendment. He was the tying vote for the 2001 and 2003 Bush Tax Cuts. I really think that he is what used to be among Democrats as well as Repbulicans.
He is my Senator and I take him for an honest decent man.
If Red State were ever to support a Democrat, Ben Nelson would be it.
Drohan, Why is he still a Democrat?
clowngirl Wednesday, November 11th at 1:48PM EST (link)Pro Life, Pro Guns - in favor of the Bush tax cuts? Living in a deep red state, what are the issues that keep him on the other side of the aisle.
I too take him as an honest, decent man though I don’t know as much about him as you do.
Probably the same reason as Zell Miller,
The_Gadfly Wednesday, November 11th at 1:54PM EST (link)he was “born a Democrat” as he wrote in his book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0974537616/ref=cm_rdp_product).
We’ve been called racists enough now that it shouldn’t bother us any more.
-AChance, http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/11/03/what-men-may-do-we-have-done/#comment-24463
If NY23 was a beat down for Conservatives, what do you call what happened to Progressives in NJ and VA?
inspired by ColdWarrior, http://www.redstate.com/hooah_mac/2009/11/04/ny-23-the-agony-of-defeat-not-so-much/#comment-156
Zell
Mayhem Wednesday, November 11th at 8:16PM EST (link)Man, I sure do miss seeing Zell around. His “spitballs?!” speech at the 04 convention will go down in the annals of history.
“I reject your reality and substitute my own.”
He's a Democrat by accident of the
drohan00 Wednesday, November 11th at 6:51PM EST (link)foolish Republican Party of Nebraska. Because the Republicans control the machines of Nebraska, structurally they are the same as the Democrats in say Massachusetts. They are so ahead in party registration that they don’t like to allow for new blood. Ben Nelson was a Republican, just like Ed Zorinsky. But the establishment GOP told them it didn’t want them to run for anything.
So Nelson, Like Zorinsky, bolted to the Nebraska Democrats, who really have no principles, aside from winning statewide races with disaffected former Republicans. We’ve had our share of Democratic Senators since the late 1970’s. All of them except Bob Kerrey were fairly conservative. In fact, Ed Zorinsky was one of Ronald Reagan’s favorite Democrats.
He’s still a Democrat because a lot of Establishment Republicans instead of courting him to join, thumb their noses at him. They hated him as governor, and they hate it that they can’t beat him. I think he’d be a credit to the party, but whatever.
I just named Nelson "Patriot of the Day"
clowngirl Thursday, November 12th at 2:19AM EST (link)on my Facebook page and posted a silly sketch of him. I’m going to send it to him along with a thank you letter tommorow. Hopefully it’ll bring a little amusement to someone and convey the gratitude I - and so many others feel.
Have decided to make a more regular effort to acknowledge those politicians, etc. who are actually doing something right.
Get a life people. Ben Nelson is not a "conservative" anything.
mbecker908 Thursday, November 12th at 7:48AM EST (link)He is the enemy of freedom and is a bigger threat to liberty in the US than the Taliban. It’s guys like Nelson that will figure out a way to get “something” passed that will nationalize healthcare. The the Democrats will slowly add back whatever doesn’t get included in the original bill.
Same on card check.
Ben Nelson is no Patriot either. He’s an enabler who makes it possible for the Marxist in Chief to get his agenda passed, and passed with cover.
This approaches about the dumbest thread I’ve seen on Redstate.
Heard yesterday, I believe on Rush, that Bill Clinton
janis Wednesday, November 11th at 1:57PM EST (link)was talking to Ben Nelson, Mary Landriue, and Blanche Lincoln specifically to inform them that they MUST vote for the health care debacle or otherwise the Dem base will rise up and vote them out of office. Supposedly he was telling them that they shouldn’t listen to the Tea Party folks, nor to their own constituents’ opinions, but to just remember that the base wouldn’t forget it if they voted against Obamacare.
I honestly have no idea how people like Obama and Clinton manage to put on straight-legged trousers every day given how completely twisted both of them are.
That such good advice of Clintons --
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 2:40PM EST (link)if you do exactly what the opposite of what the public wants, you will win.
But the best option for all of these southern state senators is for some Democrat to vote against cloture on the motion to proceed, so the bill does not come up and they will not have to vote on guns, abortion, taxes, Medicare cuts, immigration and all of the nightmare political issues.
It will die if Senator Nelson does not vote for cloture on the motion to proceed.
And the Speaker will have made her members walk the plank for NOTHING.
No, Dan, not for "nothing." It makes them such
janis Wednesday, November 11th at 3:14PM EST (link)tasty targets now, if they weren’t already. The Left will go after the ones who voted for the abortion restrictions and the Right will go after the rest. Very convenient to have your campaign ads written for you!
The house vote will solidify
mikedaire Wednesday, November 11th at 4:21PM EST (link)how much the Democrats misread the 2008 elections. They believe they were turned out of Congress in 1994 because they failed to pass a health care reform bill. When the Republicans retake the House in 2010 what will be their excuse this time? I bet they blame the Stupak amendment rather than face the reality that Americans just don’t want this much government trampling on their freedoms.
The "Dr. Fix" vote may have been a preview...
writeblock Wednesday, November 11th at 2:13PM EST (link)…of what lies ahead for Reid with this bill. Senators like Bayh and Warner have got to worry him–not to mention five or six others. Reid’s actually flying blind with this.
Bayh
Mayhem Wednesday, November 11th at 8:21PM EST (link)The Bayhs in Indiana are like the Kennedy’s in MA, or the Carhahans in MO, or the Udalls out west. It hard to beat a Bayh.
That said, if the right guy (or gal) got in this cycle, Bayh would have to finally earn that seat that his daddy gave to him. Mike Pence would instantly make it a race. Lt. Gov. Becky Skillman would also make it competitive, but I think she has he sights set on the governor’s mansion.
“I reject your reality and substitute my own.”
Dan Quayle knocked off his dad
DavidSage Wednesday, November 11th at 10:22PM EST (link)I’m sure Evan Bayh remembers that quite well.
My point was
Mayhem Wednesday, November 11th at 11:02PM EST (link)He wouldn’t have gotten the seat (or the governorship) if his dad wasn’t patriarch of the Democratic Party in Indiana.
“I reject your reality and substitute my own.”
No doubt
DavidSage Thursday, November 12th at 1:08AM EST (link)The point is, a Bayh heir might have a huge tailwind, but they’re certainly not invincible. If a politician like Dan Quayle can knock “royalty”like that off, so can a lot of other Republicans.
Indiana is a very conservative state, and my guess is Bayh knows he’s not invincible. The state threw his dad out because he was exposed as a liberal, he has to remember that lesson.
If Bayh votes casts his lot with Obama, the Prince of Indiana suddenly becomes very vulnerable.
I doubt Robert Byrd is worried
JoeG Wednesday, November 11th at 10:03PM EST (link)His mortality is staring him in the face.
Ben Nelson doesn't need thanking...
drohan00 Wednesday, November 11th at 1:45PM EST (link)he is living out what he said he’d do for Nebraska voters. I don’t like Democrats any more than the rest of you, but Ben Nelson is really a great senator.
This also tells me that he’s running in 2012 which means that the Republican dream of winning that election will be a dream deferred. Unless the recalcitrants in the Democratic caucus kill him off, like they want to do to Lieberman.
I'm jealous...
treeofliberty Thursday, November 12th at 7:25AM EST (link)I wish Dems in Jersey would sound more like this instead of the idiot socialists we have running around.
Ben Nelson is an enemy of freedom.
mbecker908 Thursday, November 12th at 7:51AM EST (link)Period.
He’s no better than John Kerry or Harry Reid.
Let's hope he sticks to his guns...
erod Wednesday, November 11th at 1:49PM EST (link)along with Lieberman.
His body language was of a guy
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 2:46PM EST (link)who was resolved.
I hope you're right Dan...
erod Wednesday, November 11th at 3:11PM EST (link)my gut tells me that Obamacare is not a done deal yet because of the dynamics of the Senate.
They will need to buy off a Republican to pass it
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 4:12PM EST (link)if I’m reading Nelson correctly.
They are trying, but they are worried about the left getting all bent out of shape because they will have to throw the public plan overboard and keep the abortion restrictions — for starters
Which is why MA Tea Parties are headed to ME
GOPMOM Thursday, November 12th at 6:49AM EST (link)We will visit Senators Snowe and Collins on Monday, November 16. Join us at Canal Plaza. Let’s make sure our Senators are bolstered - know they have our support if they follow the will of the people.
Wait..
nickinvirginia Wednesday, November 11th at 2:06PM EST (link)Reid isn’t moving to begin debate on the House bill…he is moving to begin debate on the Senate bill that he pulled together from the HELP and Finance Committees…
The Senate doesn’t bring the House bill to debate unless there is a case similar to the Cash for Clunkers bill over the summer -> When one chamber is no longer in session, the other must pass an identical bill, or else they’d have to wait until after recess to go to the conference committee.
So, I think what Nelson is saying, and what everyone knows, is that the House’s version of the Bill would never pass in the Senate (sans Reconciliation). As far as Nelson’s vote (and the 4 or 5 other Blue Dog Senators) he is going to play it close to his chest until the CBO gives a score for the thing. I expect cloture to be met to begin debate, so that amendments can be introduced and voted on; it’s the final cloture vote, to end debate and vote, that will be Reid’s biggest hurdle.
Yes, but...
writeblock Wednesday, November 11th at 2:23PM EST (link)Reid’s starting from a position opposed by Snowe, Lieberman, Nelson and Landrieu–the public option. And Nelson wants a Stupak-type amendment. If he doesn’t get it, it’s a no vote from him. That would kill the bill unless Reid falls back on a compromise that eliminates the public option and wins over Snowe. That seems to be the way this is headed–toward the public option trigger idea. This could well do the trick–though I still think Bayh, Landrieu, Warner and a few others would have serious reservations. A lot would depend on what the CBO comes up with.
Its all about the CBO
nickinvirginia Wednesday, November 11th at 3:02PM EST (link)which is weird, because Reid didn’t score a bill with a trigger. The Stupak amendment is going to have to change for the Democrats to get a bill, because it does go beyond the Hyde Amendment and too many pro-choice dems will oppose the bill if there is no change. (It goes beyond Hyde, because it won’t allow insurers in the exchange to sell insurance with abortion coverage and so even those in the exchange NOT getting tax credits - small businesses and individuals making more than the cut off for assistance - will be unable to get coverage. The Hyde Amendment, however, doe allow employers to offer coverage with abortion coverage, even though those same employers get tax breaks (i.e., federal money) for supplying health care coverage).
Honestly, I think the thing is going to pass with a trigger, and the stupak amendment is going to be changed so that it will maintain Hyde or the status quo. Lieberaman may filibuster, but Snowe won’t, and they’ll pass it through the senate. What happens in conference and what the Liberals who think the public option is necessary will be interesting to watch. Because of the filibuster in the Senate, however, the final bill will probably maintain whatever can overcome a filibuster, and that is the trigger. The liberals will then either swallow it, or kill the bill…and I doubt they will kill the bill.
If you listen to Nelson
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 3:18PM EST (link)he was quite clear about the cost and raising taxes
Wrong
Menlo Wednesday, November 11th at 5:21PM EST (link)The Stupak Amendment allows for abortions to be covered in policies specifically for people who are not getting government subsidies, and it allows anyone to purchase an abortion rider.
There is no means of a “compromise.” They already tried that with a sham accounting scheme. It is impossible. People who think they can “work something out” are deluding themselves and/or others.
You and others are using “Hyde” as a distraction. It is not applicable to ANYTHING in this bill. Hyde applies solely to Medicaid. Every federal health program has its own amendments and provisions to bar abortion funding.
Again, Stupak only changes what the whole bill changes. So to refer to a “status quo” is simply adopting the lies and deceitful tactics used by the far left. You can’t keep the “status quo” on ANYTHING with a bill like this.
Anything less than Stupak will federally fund abortion. There is no way around it, and any attempt to claim otherwise is a lie. At this point, I don’t think anyone can predict how this thing is going to play out.
“Guess which party these big insurance companies favor? Big companies love big government.” -Ann Coulter
alright
nickinvirginia Wednesday, November 11th at 10:27PM EST (link)I thought, and I’m pretty sure of this, that the Hyde amendment simply states that no federal dollars shall go toward the funding of abortions. So, that wouldn’t be limited to just Medicare or Medicaid, but to any legislation unless the language is contradicted by a statute later in time (that’s how the court’s interpret conflicting statutes). So, then do you think that when a tax break is given to an employer for providing health insurance, even insurance that provides for abortion, that the Hyde Amendment is being violated? Because what I understand is that the Hyde Amendment allows for this, essentially, because it is happening.
So, if Stupak, again as I understand it, doesn’t allow for isurance within the exchange to provide abortion coverage because it is set up with federal funds, then wouldn’t women who are in the exchange because they either A. are in a small business or B. are buying insurance as individuals, be unable to buy abortion coverage? Even women who are above the level of receiving any federal tax breaks because they make too much money? So, then wouldn’t that be beyond the Hyde Amendment’s language?
That is just the way I understand it.
You have been misinformed
Menlo Wednesday, November 11th at 11:40PM EST (link)The Obama administration and Planned Parenthood would love for you to believe that. As with everything else they say, it is a lie.
First, the Hyde Amendment is not all-purpose for “federal funds.” It applies only to Medicare. Other federal health programs rely on their own amendments.
Second, the Stupak Amendment DOES allow for the purchase of policies that include abortion, even in the “exchange,” so long as the policy is not available to those receiving subsidies. In addition, ANYONE may purchase a separate abortion rider for a policy in the “exchange.”
Either way, Hyde has nothing at all to do with it.
“Guess which party these big insurance companies favor? Big companies love big government.” -Ann Coulter
Uh, no
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 2:42PM EST (link)I think the latest news I have is Reid is moving to the House bill and then he will strike and replace it with the Senate bill.
That is the way it works.
Why no?
writeblock Wednesday, November 11th at 2:52PM EST (link)How do you disagree with my post? You make the same point I did. I don’t see what you’re trying to say–unless I’m missing something.
he was talking to me
nickinvirginia Wednesday, November 11th at 2:56PM EST (link)n/t
It's a procedural thing,
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 3:20PM EST (link)you are right, if he gets past the motion to proceed to the House bill, which he then has to strip and replace
It’s a technicality, really, the end result is the same, but in the context of the interview with Nelson, the fact that the Senate will first move to the House bill could be significant.
idk
nickinvirginia Wednesday, November 11th at 3:04PM EST (link)I haven’t heard that. He may just be doing that as a formality though. In other words, bring it for debate, it gets killed by a filibuster, and move on to the Senate bill 5 minutes later.
He needs 60 votes to get to either bill
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 3:22PM EST (link)because he must stop the filibuster on the motion to proceed to any health bill he brings up
right, agreed
nickinvirginia Wednesday, November 11th at 10:28PM EST (link)I just disagree that he would bring a House bill…he brings the Senate bill only, because the senate committees made the Senate bill.
More likely to stick to them than Joe
AngryMatt Wednesday, November 11th at 2:10PM EST (link)Lieberman is more or less liberal while still a foreign policy hawk. Nelson is to the right of Snowe and Collins, but he’s still a “party man.” That’s why he hasn’t flipped to the GOP and why he provided the crucial 51st Dem vote to give them the majority in 2006.
That being said, he’s also taken many principled stands against overly liberal pieces of legislation and supported fairly conservative bills as well. He represents Nebraska pretty well, despite the “D” after his name.
Honestly, I’d be willing to broker a deal where we run some token Republican, or no one, up against him in 2012 and actively support him in the Dem primary if it meant defeat of this healthcare monstrosity.
——-
Proof that not everyone in the mainstream media is a bleeding heart.
Agreed
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 2:45PM EST (link)If he votes against cloture on the motion to proceed, he should get massive support from RedStaters
.
nickinvirginia Wednesday, November 11th at 2:53PM EST (link)Nelson has a highter approval rating among Republicans than he does with Democrats in Nebraska. In Maine, there was a poll released yesterday showing Snowe losing to a generic conservative in a primary 56-39….I wouldn’t be surprised if she flips.
Re: Snowe
GOPMOM Thursday, November 12th at 7:19AM EST (link)MA and ME Tea Parties will visit Portland on Monday. We will meet with an aide, assuring her that she will receive no money and no support if she lets this debacle go through.
I Like Nelson, but
crosley Wednesday, November 11th at 3:24PM EST (link)His voting record is about the same as Arlen Specter’s, at least if you add up his ACU rating.
Arlen’s is 44.47
Nelson’s is 47.26
Olympia Snowe 47.88
And Nelson also voted for Obam’s “Porkulus” Bill.
So technically, Olympia Snowe (probably the most liberal Republican Senator) has a more conservative voting record than Ben Nelson, who comes from one of the most conservative states in the US.
It’s funny how a moderate Democrat is so praised, but a liberal Republican is so trashed, even if the liberal Republican has a more conservative voting record.
I still think Ben Nelson is worth knocking off, but if there was a quid pro quo deal where if he killed this bill we wouldn’t run a Republican against him, I would definitely be willing to sign off on that.
Nelson's background...
writeblock Wednesday, November 11th at 3:51PM EST (link)…was as an insurance executive. That gives him a different perspective on the health bill from most of the others. He’s reacting viscerally. I also think Nelson of FL has a unique perspective, coming from a state with a great number of seniors in key districts. Then there’s Warner and Webb who just received a message from VA voters. So this thing may be doable, but it’s going to be really tough going for Reid to maneuver in such rough waters…
I'm from FL.
tenebrous Wednesday, November 11th at 6:56PM EST (link)You can’t count on Ben “Space Case” Nelson. He’s no blue dog.
I think you have Ben Nelson and Bill Nelson mixed up
Richard Mullins Wednesday, November 11th at 7:03PM EST (link)Ben Nelson is in Nebraska and Bill Nelson is in Florida. I can’t get them wrong but I guess it’s like the mix up of Jeff Sessions(Senator from Alabama) and Pete Session(Congressman from the 32nd District of Texas).
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Hmmm
sapwolf Thursday, November 12th at 10:29AM EST (link)I guess he is not a ‘Palin Democrat’, so maybe we can’t expect him to vote very often with a GOP majority if the Senate was taken back.
One of his principles
Mayhem Wednesday, November 11th at 8:26PM EST (link)is to vote in favor of cloture. It doesn’t matter who it helps or hurts. There have been a few exceptions to this, namely the immigration bills of 06 and 07, where he voted to cut off debate. I’m guessing the weight of this bill will be significant enough for him to vote against cloture.
“I reject your reality and substitute my own.”
Obama has no significant leverage against Ben Nelson
E Pluribus Unum Wednesday, November 11th at 2:19PM EST (link)All those wussy House freshmen, the so-called moderates or “blue dogs”, they’re all scared to death of Bambi, Pelosi, and Rahm Emanuel.
Ben Nelson? Nope, not really. Plus, he’s in a red state, knows it, and knows he survives politically as long as he does not irredeemably piss off the natives back home, or as long as some legitimate conservative Republican stud does not arise in his state.
He ain’t gonna budge.
Carthago delenda est
The problem is...
writeblock Wednesday, November 11th at 2:28PM EST (link)Ben Nelson might just cancel out a Snowe defection if Reid decides on a trigger fall-back position. Lieberman might also go for a compromise. So this is far from settled. But at least we won’t have long to wait to find out how this will play out…Bayh is the one to watch for…
Snowe is on record,
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 2:43PM EST (link)when asked what Senator Reid would have to change to get her to support his bill — she said Reid would have to change “all of it.”
She is bent because he did not accept her trigger compromise.
But...
writeblock Wednesday, November 11th at 2:54PM EST (link)what happens if he gives her what she wants–and pleases Lieberman and Landrieu in the process?
they have to toss the liberals overboard
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 4:14PM EST (link)on the public option to get Snowe, which I guess could happen, but seems difficult, since some compromises they are floating on the public option being tossed are getting pounded by the left-net-roots
And it would be hard to find
drohan00 Wednesday, November 11th at 7:00PM EST (link)a more conservative stud than Don Stenberg who ran against him in 2000. Ben won that by 2000 or so votes and has been our Senator ever since. And what again does a Republican have to run against him on?
He’s Pro-Life. He’s Pro-Second Amendment. He’s pro-tax cut.
There are 93 counties in Nebraska. Most of them rural and deeply Republican. They are also deeply pro-life and pro-second amendment. At each County Fair in the state is an NRA booth and a Pro-Life booth with Ben Nelson’s picture on it. I dare say that Nelson will only lose if the liberals in Omaha and Lincoln, in a fit of pique, desert him and run a third party candidate or they find the apocryphal dead girl or live boy in his Senatorial office.
I see him as bedrock conservative. I’m sure a RedStater in Maine or Ohio would approve of my senator much of the time.
His problem is the 'D' next to his name
E Pluribus Unum Wednesday, November 11th at 10:06PM EST (link)And that is no small problem, with screaming left-wing judges, left-wing cabinet positions getting nominated at every turn these days.
He may be a “solid conservative” for Nebraska, but he still voted for Sotomayor. Anybody that runs against him could go to town on that, and any other party-line votes
Carthago delenda est
Tie him to Reid and Pelosi. He is no better than they are. nt
mbecker908 Thursday, November 12th at 10:02PM EST (link)Nice loaded question by Karl.
swami7774 Wednesday, November 11th at 2:40PM EST (link)“Will you be an ‘obstructionist’?”
Thanks for telling us, Jon, exactly where YOU stand on this obscenity of a bill.
Savior, more like it
Dan Perrin Wednesday, November 11th at 2:46PM EST (link)n/t
Hmmmm
sapwolf Thursday, November 12th at 10:26AM EST (link)Nelson seems like a……
Palin Democrat