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The Left, the Right and the American Public Couldn’t Stop 60 Votes

By: Dan Perrin (Diary) | December 19th, 2009 at 10:32 AM |

RESIZE: AAA

Word is rampant among the Senate leadership, as well as is being reported by the Wall Street Journal, that Senator Reid has got to 60 votes on cloture on the Senate ObamaCare bill.

The question of whether we live in a country ruled by leaders who refuse to listen, but do what they believe is in their own interest, has been answered.

Conservatives hate this bill. Progressives and liberals hate it too. The public is solidly against it.

But it does not matter, apparently. The implications of a country in open revolt against this bill and the elite in the Democratic party giving the public the finger are profound.

The Daily Kos and FireDogLakes of the net could not produce a single Democratic Senator or Independent to vote no. Conservatives could not produce a single Democratic Senate vote against cloture. Neither could the general public. Perhaps the left can still get one of their own to kill this nightmare. Is there not a single Dem Senator who will stand with the public, or is this merely a quaint notion we used to have about our country — that the system responds to the public?

The Democrats must have 60 votes to amend this bill, then 60 votes to defeat the filibuster. They say they have them — we will see.

Senator Nelson, according to a senior Senate staffer, got a huge appropriation for Nebraska — and a state opt-out for abortion funding, as in states can opt-out. Another Democratic Senator bought off with money we are printing to pay our bills.

The world will understand America has changed. Our country is now run by elites who are printing money, debasing our currency to throw at massive new spending and deficit creating programs — and actually believe they are both moral and politically smart. Just 19% of the public believes this plan will not increase the deficit.

What comes next is very discomforting to think about. But we have now crossed that line from what our country was into something else, and that something else has nothing whatsoever with the country being a Republic. There will be a reckoning for this, and it will not be pleasant — not for anyone.

Tags: Senator Ben Nelson, the scream, Wall Street Journal

COMMENTS

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ashen

But I’m out of work and have no weapons. But, I am not afraid to fight. Are we organizing nationally yet? Or locally. Dan, what say you?

CincoSolas_del_Bronx

If not, you might want to hear a little secret I just overheard when I just stepped out of the Ruling Council’s meeting for a minute to get more Diet Pepsi and salt & vinegar chicharrones. They started talking … aboutYOU!

They want you to lay REAL LOW for now. Draw up your lists, stock up, plan your itinerary–that means where you want to go first and all that–and prepare down to the LAST DETAIL. They want you to be COMPLETELY READY when the call comes, so this could take a REALLY REALLY REALLY LONG TIME–it always does for the VERY BEST.

They will be expecting you to report back, HERE, using the SPECIAL CODE you were already given, when EVERYTHING is READY.

Then–I can’t believe how honored I feel to be the one to get to tell you this!–they want YOU to …

WAIT.FOR.THE.CALL.

(and then there was something about how disappointed they’ll be if you fail…)

Dan Perrin

Pretty funny, and nicely done.

CincoSolas_del_Bronx

BTW Ruling Council’s talking about appointing a committee which must report back before any further actionables can be discussed.

We’ll know they’ve finished when the new codes are sent out.

Dan Perrin

The corruption and rot must be removed, non-violently.

http://www.americanlogic.wordpress.com DS.White

I have maintained for a while that we are currently in the midst of what I call a ‘cold’ civil war. It is a war between people who want to preserve what the United States of America was intended to be and what another segment of society wants to turn in into.

At this point I am still holding out hope that we can turn the tide of liberelism and socialism, but I figure that we only have one chance left. If we can not elect a true conservative majority in congress next year, this ‘cold’ war has a better than average chance of becoming ‘hot’. I pray that I am wrong.

countessolenska

Is Dems who voted for cloture then voting against the final bill. Their names should be noted because they will be the true hypocrites.

Dan Perrin

I’ll bet for one, McCaskill, Lincoln, Landrieu etc..

http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

you betcha!

scarlos

That way Biden can cast the tie-breaker and feel important.

http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

serious end.

JadedByPolitics

to our Senators offices and let them know that a vote for cloture is a vote FOR the bill and this bill is so HORRENDOUS that it will NEVER be forgotten!

Kyle-MI

Elections have consequences. In the last couple elections we demanded a perfect Republican party, so too many of us sat at home on election day or voted for those ‘perfect’ third parties splitting the vote. Now instead of big spending Republicans we have humongous spending liberal Democrats. Now we will experience all the garbage of socialist medicine. Starting down this road there will be no turning back.

eburke

is that the Republican party abandoned any pretense of standing for anything except for ‘we’re not as bad as the other guys so give the power to us.”

Don’t invert the cause and effect. It wasn’t the base that caused this mess ’cause most of us held our noses and voted for ‘the lesser of two evils’. What we lost was the average American voter who voted for “Hope and Change” because the Pubs failed to police their own and craved power for the sake of power just like the Dems had done before them. When more Americans believed that the Dems would lower spending and cut taxes than the GOP…well, you tell me where they got that from.

So..if you’re looking for someone to blame, try putting it where it belongs which is at the feet of the ‘leaders’ of the Republican party for being more interested in the halls of power than in the interests of the average American. Don’t try blaming this on the ‘purists’, as you like to call them, in the party.

The blame that rests at the feet of the ‘purists’, is that we confused “Republicans” the whole enchilada in 2002 with ‘conservatism’ winning and we kicked back, forgave our ‘leaders’ for spending like drunken sailors because they had an R next to their name, and thought we had won the battle and the war.

No. More.

But you can take your ‘this is all the purists fault’ trip and peddle it elsewhere.

countessolenska

Washington needs a cleaning out. But fiscal conservatives may well vote for divided government again to slow the power-crazed politicians.

eburke

WTH does that mean? Why on God’s green earth would I, a conservative *ever* vote for ‘divided government’ which, by definition, means I would have to vote for the same Marxist, linguini-spined, Democrat whores who are about to create felons out of people who don’t buy health insurance?

Hell, I don’t even want to vote for half of the *Republicans* out there. What, pray tell, *are* you talking about?

gnomechumpsky

You are correct, well said. I would also add that it is even more important to elect conservatives this fall – I can’t imagine any RINOs with the stomach to work at overturning this mess. Picture depending on Olympia Snowe or John McCain going into battle to overturn this mess. Bring on the purists!

eburke

I’m thinking there are a lot of conservatives like me out there who, after we won the whole enchilada in ’02, who had been working for *years* to see the Republicans control the House, Senate, and Presidency so that a conservative agenda could finally be implemented, who thought we had ‘won’.

Unfortunately, we/I got complacent and started rationalizing/justifying a lot of the garbage that was going on because a) they had an R next to their name and we needed to ‘keep everyone on the reservation’; and, b) Bush was a stalwart on the WOT.

It took the amnesty debacle to finally make my cup run over and I’ve been full tilt at it ever since. Republican *doesn’t* = conservative unless we *make* it equal it.

writeblock

They are what got us to where we are. We need to be politically smarter. It wasn’t smart in the primaries to put so much influence in the hands of farmers and evangelicals when the big battles would be fought in blue and purple states. Any smart system would have ditched a phony like Huckabee early on. We need a doer next time around, somebody with a record of accomplishments–somebody who knows how to reform a country badly in need of reform. I want Rudy. I don’t care how many times he got married or what his stand is on wedge issues. He’s got an impressive record of actual achievment. I want somebody who’s not necessarily a nice guy but who’s equal to the job and not just another smooth-talking pol.

paint_it_red

Your post begins by degrading farmers and evangelicals, (of which, I am neither), so right off the bat, it is hard to listen to you. Then you start making out that Huckabee cost Rudy the election. Rudy might make a fine senator, if he runs, but he couldn’t swing even one state despite a huge funding advantage relative to Huckabee, so there was no way he ever could have won the nomination, much much less the Presidency.

You want to “blame the purists?” Did the so-called purists get who they wanted in McCain? Have you forgotten what we got from Chafee, Jeffords, Scozzafozza, Specter, Schwarzennager, and others who run as moderates in the past few years? What happened to the moderates we ran throughout New England over the last 20 years? They all got obliterated electorally because they have little to no base.

You want to advocate that tried and failed strategy on a national level at a time when conservativism is poised to drive a GOP comeback. Put aside baseless assertions rich in blame please and get a reality check.

writeblock

But I’m castigating a system that relies so much on a small segment of the population to nominate its candidate for highest office. Why are we looking to Iowa and SC and NH for our nominee? Why not PA and OH, two purple states of far more importance politically? Why must contenders talk about ethanol and pro-life issues when the real danger concerned our steady drift into socialism and fiscal chaos?

Nor did I say Huckabee cost Rudy the election. I’m saying the system elevates the Huckabees and turns its back on a big city blue staters like Rudy. What has Rudy in common with farmers or evangelicals? He dealt with Wall Street corruption, big city Democratic machine pols, terrorism, huge fiscal problems, the opposition of media giants like the NYTimes and the tv networks. He isn’t that interested in ethanol or that attuned to Dr. Dobson’s views. But he polled ahead of Dem candidates in NJ and CT and PA and OH. That should have counted for something.

GregInFla

It’s a fact; not one I like, but it is a fact. Check the numbers.
http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

n/t

writeblock

We were myopic and nominated a gentlemanly loser instead of a tough streetfighter. The streetfighter wasn’t perfect enough–though he led the opposition in all the polls. Now we see the consequences of that shortsighted fiasco.

That said, this is far from over. The Supreme Court will be weighing in on this. That’s the meaning of its very existence–to preserve the Constitutional rights of the people in the face of an overreaching Congress and Executive Branch.
6eorge Jetson

when the public lost its ability to distinguish between “big spending Republicans” and speech-making, critical Lefties. And so looking for some ill-defined “change”, the public turned blindly to the Lefties.

I beg to differ with the over-simplified “you can’t tell the difference between Republicans and Democrats” line. In the current environment, facing ludicrous levels of spending, the present Republican congressional membership offers a stark difference from Democrats. After all, Republicans voted unanimously against this monstrocity while Democrats voted almost unanimously for it.

However, in primary elections, we need to ask ourselves, what type of Republican do we want in office when the balance of power returns to even or back to a Republican majority. Do we want the 2005-2008 big spending type, which will continue to burden our children with debt (although not of the same magnitude), or the convervative type that will make the tough decisions to get our finances back in control.

The_Gadfly

Current set, sure. After they’d been beaten nearly senseless by a public enraged with their past policies. But from 2000 to 2008 other than the GWoT, it was pretty much impossible to tell the two parties apart. Even on judges it took a massive outcry from the base before the parties looked different.

Leopard1996

So now what can we do, except wait until 2010, to get majorities and 2012 to vote out Obama, and then try to roll this nightmare back, even without public option and medicare buy in this bill is going to be total garbage and make us all a whole hell of a lot poorer.

writeblock

I don’t understand why we’re not talking about challenging this in the courts once it’s passed. This is hardly the end of the road. It’s just one battle in a long civil war. There are three reasons turning to the Court is promising:

1. Because the Constitution clearly proscribes federal mandates of the sort proposed in this bill.

2. Because the people themselves in all the polls clearly state they are opposed to this bill.

3. Because a good part of the left is as strongly opposed as the right to this bill–which may be a uniting force in a divided Court.

Swamp_Yankee

.

writeblock

Of course it’s the answer. It exists primarily to protect the Constitution from overreaching Executive and Congressional branches. Its whole purpose is precisely to deal with occasions like this.

Swamp_Yankee

First the Supreme Court is not as conservative as you think on these types of issues. Second, its abouut to get a lot more liberals. Third, they strike provisions without striking down whole laws. Hence, striking down mandates, but leaving in the coverage for pre-existing language sounds good, but would bankrupt the insurance industry and take away our most potent poltical issue.

Also, do you even have a cause of action before the law is effective. Its effective in 2013. What will the court look like in 2014. Which district and appelate court do you propose that we use first.
writeblock

First, the mandates on individuals is only one questionable issue. There’s a real issue regarding the tenth amendment.

Second, only some of the provisions go into effect in 2014. Some of the fund-raising begins next year.

Third, the only potential replacements would be for the more liberal justices. All the conservatives–Roberts, Kennedy, Scalia, Alito and Thomas are in apparent good health with no plans to retire.
Swamp_Yankee

Pretty much everything the govnerment does violates the Tenth. Whens the last time they ruled on a federal entitlement? Ummmm.

Fundraising is not gorunds for a cause of action. There must be parties involved, usually injured parties, to file a lawsuti.

Kennedy is the swing vote and there is no guarantee he is going tostick around. Plus, they are all old. No one knew Ginsbug would get pancreatic cancer either.
writeblock

I meant taxes.
http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

standing. By then, Dems will bend the rules enough to get a majority on the Court. I am sure that Mitch McConnell will write the Dem’s a letter telling them “how very angry he is with them”.

mbecker908

1. What’s your point. The white-out may on the 10th Amendment may be cracked, but it’s still there. And all those states that are wasting their time passing those 10th A thingys, heh.

2. “The People” will be celebrating this “victory” by May 1.

3. Don’t hold your breath. The Left knows full well that the hard part is getting “something” nationalized. Once that’s done they’ll nibble away at the parts they don’t like and add the parts they do. It’s called incrementalism and it works like a fine watch. We’ve never learned that and that’s why not one word of the New Deal or Great Society or War on Poverty has been repealed, only expanded.
Achance

They will look for anyway not to hear it and if they must any way not to overturn it. And if they do, it will be a 5-4 and decried as illigitimate by a newly united left. So, should it come to the USSC overturning it, stock up on precious metals like brass and lead.

writeblock

Why would the Supreme Court avoid an issue that runs to the heart of what this nation is all about? And why would it do so when most of the country would applaud it for defending our freedoms? Even the left hates this law, btw.

The_Gadfly

about upholding the law well before Roe v Wade. That was just the decision which stunk so badly it was no longer possible to deny that “upholding the law” was a corpse.

Leopard1996

I also know that it is a long trip to get there, where depending on the circuit, you get defeated and defeated again, and most times the supreme court will choose not to even hear the case. You think is Sotomayor is the one with the decision to hear the case, she will allow it after it got defeated in say the 9th circuit (very liberal).

I think the supreme court would more the likely punt this decision.

Mayhem

Words cannot describe. The floor has just dropped out from underneath my feet. We shouldn’t have to say goodbye to our freedom! We didn’t want this! This needn’t have happened!

Lord, please help us!

earlgrey

I didn’t think bayh would do this. He claimed to be a fiscal conservative. I wonder if this is driven by the big insurance companies that want this.

I am still in disbelief. I guess that is the first stage of grief.
writeblock

but for us to summon up a fighting spirit. This is only the beginning. The next stage is a court fight. And there’s 2010 and 2012. This has finally got very real. We’ve been living in a fool’s paradise long enough. But discouragement is psychologically self-defeating. What we need to do is organize smarter and fight harder.

Old_Crow

In the minds of Congress, we are nothing but slaves.

Slaves to their every wish, their every gilded desire, their every command.

They must be very, very firmly held to account.
The time to play nice is over.
jacon4

or so says Drudge. This was kinda predictable, with an unlimited budget that they would get to 60. After that, they will only need 51 so expect 6 or 8 dems to vote no on passage so they can tell everyone they voted against the bill.

Section9

And I’m being nice. The man had no principles.

Dan Perrin

the bid and ask price?

Buying and selling — for his vote.

neoavatara

I am not devastated. I accepted this result the minute Obama was elected.

The Democrats now own a health care system of their making that does not improve care, does not decrease costs, and increases premiums for most patients, while very likely adding massive debt.

They own it lock, stock and barrel. I wish them luck.

That said, the compromise bill will be a battle too. Will abortion ban keep? What about the public option? Some Dems are still not willing to sign on to this thing. I don’t know, I feel there is still a battle to come.

http://neoavatara.com/blog/?p=8719

tdpwells

They will never admit it, nor will their enablers in the media. This will continue to be spun for decades to come as a positive change in America’s health care system. It’ll forever be the ‘better than nothing’ bill in their damaged minds.

Richard Mullins

It’s being read right now and this time it was McConnell that is having it read. It just great.

izoneguy

How many pages is that? Someone go grab Snowe, Collins & Hutchinson and go lock them in a closet until Nov. 2010……..

Richard Mullins

I’ll look at the Reid amendment later. BTW, the Dems are in a Caucus meeting now, so this is not close to a done deal.

djemi

That is not going to happen of corse but one can hope.

Listening right now and it sounds as if the Republicans have grown a back bone.

Richard Mullins

Great work and now the parliamentarian has not let them stop it. I’m happy.
djemi

heres hoping, got my fingers and toes crossed that Jim DeMint come thru for me
Richard Mullins

They need the right time to do it. As long as it in amendment stage and not in the point of the bill being up. When it’s all said and done, the 2074 page bill is going to grow to 3000 pages. When that happens the old leftists in the Senate might vote no because this cut into their bedtime.
Achance

Once the Ds have their 60 chits, the Rs can all be as proud and brave as they think their constituents want them to be; it’s only noise now.
Richard Mullins

Sure the talk is now that they have 60 votes but do they know what they are agreeing to to. I don’t think so and the reading is going to make reconsider their faux agreement.
Achance

actually gets read by anyone other than lobbyists and sponsors. You can have a very pleasant and successful legislative career without ever confusing yourself by reading all that dry stuff. The only thing you need to do is read the sponsors and co-sponsors’ names and if they’re the right people you vote with them unless the Whip tells you to vote differently.
Richard Mullins

since their is not way to stop it and why stop at just 60 how 75. Hell we need all of the Senators to vote yes now because their is no stoping the bill.
6eorge Jetson

The Dems own this 100%. We must find a ways to use that against them.

It is always darkest before the dawn.
Richard Mullins

The Donks all voted to limit debate on the Reid’s amendment now. It looks like it going to pass any ways. Any one that got them in office need to get hit hard.

djemi

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN2_wm.aspx
Richard Mullins

I happy for that. There have been to Donks that tried to stop it and that has failed.

harlan

%$#&*@^&#%$&#&*@ ‘em all.

Dan Perrin

n/t

izoneguy

This must be fight by the states that don’t want it. Fight it in the courts until we can take control back. Find every means possible to reduce your imcome so the feds will get less in taxes. Hunker down. Stop spending. Pay off your credit cards. Refinance your house now, get the payments as low as you can. STAY HEALTHY. If you smoke – STOP.
This will get serious.
michigan

of a counterstroke to nullify this bill. There will be a political blood bath on both sides, but for completely different reasons. More polarization, more unrest, Dan is spot on; it won’t be pleasant for anyone.

izoneguy

More people will be united AGAINST him and the dems then ever….

http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

Or any chance there will emerge a new Dem holdout? Can this at least be pushed back until after Christmas. How much stalling can we still do within parliamentary rules?

Worst case scenario, what about Stupak, the Conference committee, and/or the Supreme Court?

paint_it_red

My take – there will be no new holdout on the Senate bill. Not going to get voted on this weekend. The work in conference committee will determine much. They have little to no wiggle room in the Senate, and little more in the House. The House does not have the votes to accept this bill in toto. The real questions are:

1. Whether Stupak and his Pro-Life Democrat coalition satisfied with Senator Nelson’s amendments. My guess is they do not go far enough.

2. Whether other Democrats are more likely to fall off the bill in the House now that it has no public option.

3. The examination of details in the CBO report as to budget neutrality may move some votes in the House.

4. The more time that passes, the more votes we can peel off in the House. If we hold the nays we had before and add three more, the bill is dead.

janis

but they didn’t. This will pass the House in some form. Count on it. Madame Botox has already promised a bill would be passed. They’re too close to some form of victory to stop now. And she already said that she’d give up 30-40 seats in the House to get this if she had to.
http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

or I assume so.

tdpwells

when his vote is cast, and not a moment before. I expect nothing from these glorified prostitutes anymore.

The_Gadfly

They can change it right up until that point. Some even try to change it afterward.

Dan Perrin

of the Nelson deal are revealed to the rest of the Dem Senate Caucus, they may push back.

However, it is clear that consistent political pressure has had no effect — the system, our representative government is broken and is not responding.

http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

This isn’t over. Both Reid and McConnell are faced with intricately threading the needle. From a pure strategy point of view, this will make a fascinating case study when all this is “over.”

Dan Perrin

outraged by this corruption and buying of votes, could, if they stick to their principles, will stop this.

I do not believe that our opponents on the left are unprincipled in their opposition. If they stick to their principles, they could produce one or two votes against cloture.

I do, however, disagree with Mullins.

Senator McConnell reading of the bill now is closing the gate after the horse is out of the barn. He could have been objecting and done many other things as Erick so clearly described, but McConnell and Kyl did not.

McConnell’s performance has been weak and pathetic.

Mayhem

be uncalled for to ask that McConnell step aside as leader because of this one vote. Seriously, this is all the marbles. It has always been all the marbles. If he couldn’t find it in himself to fight for blood in the epic battle of our time, then he must be replaced.

There must be accountability here. No more excuses.

http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

Mitch hasn’t the fire, and should step down by midnight tonight.

Or sooner.

For the life of me I can’t understand what “dignity of the body” he thinks he protecting when Reid & Co have done everything in their power to telegraph the fact they are creating a new regime and regime structure, and not just some new direction.

Hell, if I were Harry, knowing 1/3rd of all House democrats and 1/5 of all Senate democrats are facing jail time if the law ever catches up with them, I’d being trying to create a new regime structure, too.
Dan Perrin

with me and do not follow my strategy the loss will be on your hands.

The inverse, therefore, must be true.

The loss is on McConnell’s hands — by his own words and reasoning.

OneCleverCookie

Prayer is about the only action we can take at this point if the above scenario has indeed been set in motion. Is there not one senator of the 60 that will just stand with the will of the people? We only need one. In my State, Louisiana, Mary Landrieu sold us out for 300 Million pieces of silver. I begged “conservatives” not to vote for this clowns, but some could not get excited about the Republican candidate for he too was a former Democrat that supported Kerry in 2004.
What a nightmare!

GregInFla

The state got bribes in the House (Cao) and the Senate. Huey ong would be proud.

Section9

We didn’t demand a perfect Republican Party.

We demanded a Republican Party that lived up to its reputation. What we got was Part D Medicare and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that were thrown off-budget. We also got a President who never used his veto pen and a Republican Congress that indulged that habit and got in bed with K-Street.

These are the Republicans who are still in DC, by the way, and are telling you to trust them. That they have changed for the better. That they have learned from their mistakes.

All the Bush crowd did was to make it easy for Obama to cram his version of National Socialism down the throats of the American people. Yes, Bush was a fine war President. But in the end, people vote on domestic policy. When you make it easy for a left wing charlatan like Obama to run as a “fiscal conservative”, your failure as a party is complete.

Now, it is for the conservatives to rescue the Republican Party from the Rockefeller Wing of the GOP which still rules the roost in D.C.. It is for us to restore Reaganism’s rightful place in the Party. But there is a long way to go.
countessolenska

As many have said here, the Democrats are thinking beyond 2010 and creating permanent majorities for the “party of government.”

izoneguy

This will split America into what in essence would become different nations. The reverse of what happened in Europe. It’s coming. It will be slow and perhaps non-vilolent. Much depends on the action of the elites. Push comes to shove – I don’t think they have the balls.

Section9

The Ruling Classes lost touch with the working people and the serfs. That is how the Political Class thinks of us, btw. They are spending money that they don’t have or have tried to loot from the Chinese to obtain permanent power for themselves.

They don’t care. They just don’t care. They believe that they know better than the common person.

countessolenska

That’s just a fact.

Dan Perrin

spend another additional $2.5 trillion over 15 years — and the dollar printing presses keep on truck’n.

Here is what the Chinese said yesterday:

“In a discussion on the global role of the dollar, Zhu told an academic audience that it was inevitable that the dollar would continue to fall in value because Washington continued to issue more Treasuries to finance its deficit spending.”

redneck_hippie

the party, and the party became the state. In totalitarianism, everything is within the state, and there is nothing outside the state. I’m not saying that Obama is a dictator, but the constitution is in dire jeapardy, as is our republic.

janis

Obama’s a dictator. And those who assist him in what he’s doing are the equivalent of those who assisted Chavez in Venezuela, Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, Stalin in Russian, Ahmadinejad in Iran, etc.

They are brokers of raw power and no more.
The_Gadfly

baserunr

of the Obama Administration. They are a better breed of bureaucrat, and socialism will work THIS TIME because “we are the ones we have been waiting for”! The death warrant of the American medical system was signed today. Ben Nelson, Harry Reid, and perhaps even Barack Obama won’t be around to see the system’s collapse, but our children and grandchildren will plead with the American equivalent of Britian’s NICE panels. They’ll ask the assembled bureaucrats to please allow treatments to save their lives. Unfortunately, there won’t be enough money to spend, on anyone.
nessa

That was a pretty big part of the French Revolution… I’m just sayin’…

http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

Not noting names, but it stops.
nessa

I intended that as dark humor, nothing more. My sincere apologies.
Section9

That they are Superior Men, who will correct the mistakes of the Past
and apply the Lessons Learned.

Woodrow Wilson’s administration was full of such nonsense. JFK’s, too.
Achance

They are typical post-modernists even if they don’t know they are. History began with their creation and is purely a creature of their perception.

Swamp_Yankee

This ruling class is creating indoctrindated serfs that are loyal to them. They are only screwing the middle class.

djemi

Use the C&P strategy by starving the Feds of there money instead of trying to overload it.

countessolenska

Will that help?

izoneguy

Now is not the time to go to Turbo Tax.

Your accountant can show you strategies that will help lower your tax burden. Even if you are a W-2 employee – I suggest forming an S-corp and start doing work on the side. I don’t know what will happen with the health insurance industry – all I know is that people that ACTUALLY work will be screwed over……

Achance

at maintaining an off-the-books economy. I suspect we’ll be seeing “unemployment” skyrocket and the government will react by turning the Department of Labor and the IRS into our own version of the Gestapo as they try to catch people working for cash and not “paying their fair share.”

djemi

Which the current DC Leadership defines as 100% right
The_Gadfly

They’ll be looking for about 500% because that what they need to pay the minimum costs incurred to “protect” a “human right”.

pollux

What happened? I thought we killed this!

And NOW Republican senators put out an ad saying, “Now is the time to act” and giving us, “An urgent call to action”? And McCain at the end saying, “We can win it…” He’s the guy to be talking about winning? This is so depressing.

http://republican.senate.gov/

They all keep saying, “This could be our last chance” — yes, to vote for them again. Shameful.

countessolenska

Republicans want donations to fight battles they can’t win – or won’t win.
izoneguy

He said Mr. Obama would make a fine President….
That is where McCain lost – and lost any support from me.
I did vote for him because I refuse to support the sham that is
breathing the Oval Office air.

louisiana

I’ve read conflicting info regarding whether or not she can be recalled.

E Pluribus Unum

Governors can, US Senators and Representatives cannot, because the election is a national one.

anotherindyfilmguy

a few other Dems suddenly decided they weren’t getting paid enough to vote for this monstrosity and it gets held up even longer and these asshats have to face their constituents over the Christmas holiday time.

The Republicans should all file their proxy votes and leave Washington.

Of course it is ironic if they hold their final vote to pass it on Christmas Eve… a big stinking piece of coal for every American to swallow on Christmas day. Oh wait… coal has value and can be put to good use in winter… Bondage, that is this bill is. A Christmas gift of Bondage for America.
http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

Dan Perrin

Silly me.

http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

I know it’s taken a lot of time to follow this as closely as you have. You’ve allowed us to follow along with you. I hope you don’t feel it wasn’t worth the effort.

We both know this will get worse in committee. Some senators will bail on the final vote, but not enough to stop it. It’ll likely only pass the house by a vote or two, with as many democrats as possible running for cover.

Two things are important here. 1. We have to make the Democrats own this. NO Republican can vote for final passage. 2. We have to make the democrats pay….yes, especially those that try to find cover at the last minute.

thelonebostonconservative

The courts are stacked with people who support this kind of stuff. And we’ll never have the majorities needed to repeal this bill. The only chance we have is to stop it in the House, which could be a real question, or to nullify at the state level.

You must pressure your state legislators to exercise their power to nullify laws which are outside the bounds of the Constitution. That is the only hope.

Achance

in the past and I have lots of ancestors in unmarked graves in Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania to prove it.

Fundamentally, that’s what the Medicare cuts are about; any state that tries not to play CommiCare will have to foot the whole bill for Medicare or try to brave having its senior citizens do without it. Actually, some states could and maybe should do that, though the Fed can be counted on to make life a living Hell for any state that tries to defy it.
writeblock

One landslide victory of a Republican for President could bring both houses in on his/her coattails. But it would have to be somebody capable of a landslide victory. Winning both houses would reverse this before it got going in four years.

As for the courts–this is headed to the Supreme Court. It’s a constitutional matter before all else. Something like this happened under FDR when Congress tried to stack the Supreme Court. The Supremes declared the law unconstitutional.

The_Gadfly

For essentially the same reasons have had such a hard time passing their dream bill: 60 votes in the Senate does not even a majority make in this age of hyper-partisan politics. The difference is, whereas Democrats are willing to run roughshod over the opposition and use public monies to ~~bribe~~ placate their restive members, Republicans aren’t. Well, they might try to placate the opposition, but certainly not their own.

builder20

I was at a M?nner Stamtisch the other day here in Germany, and the health care debate came up. I was asked for my opinion, to which I responded that the bill was total crap. Germans, God bless them, have a very hard time understanding why Americans don’t want to help the poor by having the Government take our freedoms and money! For them, Government is god, omniscient and all caring. Fair. I went on to explain how Americans under this bill would be FORCED to purchase insurance from private companies, ect. Once I was done explaining the bill the Germans at my table were unanimously against it! They then proceeded to ask my opinion of THEIR health care system. After thinking I found the one word to describe the entire thing:

“Unsustainable”

I explained that the only reason why Germans have the healthcare that they do, is because they are robbing their future generations wealth. In the next 50 years Germanys population will collapse. With most in “Rente” or retirement. They have absolutely NO WAY that they can afford to pay for those people. Germany has a ron de vue with death, and it can be clearly seen, and is seen. Yet they are too afraid to face it. I saw this realization, this recognition in the eyes of those at the table. They know that their kids futures are screwed, but they just picked up their beers and kept drinking. It was shocking to see.

I had hoped that the US would be wise enough to avoid the mistake of Germany. Yet, that is not the case.

But let those in Congress and Senate be forewarned. There is a huge cultural difference between those people in Germany, who have had their balls cut off, who from birth and are taught that the milk of life flows from the tit of the State. To the culture of Patriots, and lovers of Freedom. By taking the action of FORCING the citizens of the US to purchase something they are against because you received a BRIBE you shift from being our representatives, to our Masters.

We. Will. Not. Be. Slaves!

izoneguy

And doesn’t that pretty much describe about 80% of the America public? Social Security, MediCare, Welfare and now “Universal HealthCare. This is all ?Unsustainable?.

The only hope is that like-minded people flee some where and take a stand. We may just grease the tank treads, but I would rather fight and die now – then submit to a hellish future.
Achance

All they have to do is bring it on slowly and the frogs won’t jump out of the pot. I lived through the civil rights movement days in The South and I heard a lot of brave words from my kith and kin. All my uncles swore that they’d die with a gun in their hands before any of their kids went to an integrated school. Well, the government took it fairly slowly and by the early ’70s all the schools were completely integrated, the “White Only” signs were down, and all the “literacy” tests and poll taxes were gone, pretty much without violence post-’65 – the Yankees got the violence then. Oh, and far as I know, all my younger cousins spent pretty much every day of their schooling in an integrated school.

Third Street

There’s a big difference between having to share drinking fountains and bus seats, and living every day with the spectre of disease, death and the total economic collapse of the United States.

A very big one.

“Unsustainable” is a very good word for this, because socialized medicine in America literally cannot be sustained. Our entire country cannot now be sustained. ObamaCare is but one leg of a totalitarian stool, together with cap-and-trade and an illegal alien amnesty that increases the country’s population by half again overnight, that will take away everything we have; it’s no more complicated than that. And that is why we will either take the country back or split it apart.

But this will not continue.

Achance

that opposition to civil rights legislation and its effects on society was MUCH more general and vehement in The South than is opposition to socialized medicine in the Nation as a whole. No matter the modern revisionist tales, I assure you that pretty much the only people in The South who were not opposed were on university campuses and in the large cities, and there weren’t many there either. Nevertheless, after it became a reality with passage of the ’64 CRA and ’65 VRA, there was almost no opposition.

And it really doesn’t matter whethr it is sustainable or not politically. In November of ’08, the Left’s dreams came to fruition; a majority of voting Americans had reached a medieval level of ignorance and superstition so that they could be led like the peasants communism needs.

For all the caterwauling here about conservative purism and how there’s a sixty percent conservative majority, there arent 10% who’d actually do anything more energetic than maybe whipping out their credit card to make a contribution. When people self-describe as conservative in polls what they’re saying is that they think themselves to be prudent, cautious people, not easily swayed. Very few are ideological conservatives and almost none want to hear strident conservatives criticize the nice government.

The spending of trillions and trillions of dollars is merely an abstraction. “Taking your freedom” doesn’t mean much to people who don’t use much freedom anyway. What difference is there between the employer providing health insurance and not giving you any say in it and the government providing health insurance and not giving you any say in it. What will matter is when the taxes kick in, but the Ds have done a good job of getting people off the income tax rolls and have pretty close to a majority that will in fact be subsidized under this plan. Those who will be paying for that subsidy are the evil rich who deserve it. I’m just sitting here waiting for the ACORN guy to come by and tell me how many families are moving into my house with me.

Third Street

…this is practically unsustainable, in every conceivable way that matters, in ways that will devastate the everyday lives of Americans. And that is why there will be a revolt over this, and why the roiling of the populace will not stop. I’m not willing or able to predict anything more specific than that; only that this will not stand because it cannot.
Achance

The people who pull Comrade Obama’s strings fully intend to destroy the US as a great power. They WANT to bankrupt the US and they really don’t care what happens to the citizenry along the way so long as they can keep any strife at manageble levels.

Everybody simply runs from the question of who was responsible for all the oil price manipulation and, especially, the currency manipulation leading up to the election. The whole “crisis” was a contrivance by someone, or group of someones who essentially did a run on the US Treasury and the US government was given the German Choice. When we acceded to the demands and McCain essentially terminated his opposition to Comrade Obama, it was game, set, match. Now, all they need is Card Check, and if they can get 60 for CommieCare, they can get 60 for Card Check – or pretty much anything else. Once they get Card Check, federal elections will be about as meaningful and competitive as union elections.

Then the ’10 Census properly proportions voting in the Country for the ’12 election, America will be ready to take its proper place in the World Socialist community after Comrade Obama’s re-election. And if you don’t like that vision of the New America, invest in precious metals.

http://www.patrickscartoons.com Patrick_Murdock

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. –Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government.”

Sometimes I feel that we are not far from throwing off the government that runs this country….
garbear

if this passes. Elections and the votes that drive them DO have consequences, even long-term consequences. When the conservative folks of Arkansas decide–who knows why–to send TWO liberal Democrat Senators to Washington then Arkansans voted for this kind of government takeover. When NC decided Libby Dole had to go and replaced her with a Democrat or when Indiana voted Bayh thinking he’s some sort of “conservative” Democrat then folks in those fairly conservative states voted FOR healthcare takeover. I’ve understood that sort of thing since I was a kid growing up in an internet and Limbaugh free world. It’s not hard to understand that a vote for a Democrat will lead to such as this. Why others who think like me–like those folks in Ark or NC or IN–don’t get that is beyond me.

countessolenska

…it IS the Republicans’ fault because when they had the power they spent like drunken sailors. They didn’t govern as conservatives.

skat

Patrick,
Our conservative side is always busy teaching the Republicans like Rick Santorum, Libby Dole, etc a lesson. Then we get Franken and company so it all works out really nicely, doesn’t it? If we don’t stop giving the elections to Democrats to “teach” Republicans a lesson, the country is gone. We need to find a different way to hold Republicans, and actually Democrats, accountable.

jacon4

about this. Look at it this way, it may become the gift that keeps on giving not only in 2010 but in ’12 ’14 and so on.

The dems will totally own this and all that goes with it.

ehud

if the dems get a govt takeover of healthcare. They will create govt dependencies that will keep them in power for centuries.

countessolenska

…can’t vote against because nobody will vote for them. So it disempowers conservatives in general.

djemi

countessolenska

When he said that the Democrats’ health care reform would destroy the two-party system.

Republicans need to hope that the left is tired of this crap too and will form a leftist thrid party.
mbecker908

And his fellow Senator from UT is even worse.
Richard Mullins

So we need to place them in a holding cell for them. They can be right to the Donks in the prison.
Scope

to co-mingle with the gitmo’s.
Richard Mullins

That way Turbin and others get to know who the want as their supporters.

cari

Mark Steyn has eloquently pointed out time and time again that a universal healthcare system, once in place, is permanent.

But everywhere it has been established around the world, it has been with the majority of the people FOR it, not against it. All sides of the political debate are against this- right, left and center. The Dems have consoled themselves that once the public gets a taste of it, they’ll learn to like it.

No way, not this time. The public doesn’t even know what all is in this thing, and the more it learns, the LESS this bill is liked. I’m hopefully that even if it passes, it will never be fully implemented because of the revolt against what ‘s in it and the WAY in which it is passes. Americans aren’t as passive as Europeans and Canadians. They aren’t used to having their voices completely ingnored like this. If this passes, the Dems think that’s that. No, that’s when the poop will really hit the fan!
izoneguy

You just mean in DC, New York & Kalifornia?

They can keep those wretched places….
The rest of the country won’t sit around waiting for the trains to haul them off.

IJB

I personally can’t fathom why the Dems are doing this – it basically doesn’t achieve their ends (it does not create a “dependent class” like Public Option/Single Payer does), is sure to be repealed (at least mostly, if not entirely), and it creates so much spending that it may very well endanger all their other prized entitlements.

And it will surely cost Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln, to name just two, their jobs.

This bill is irrational on so many levels, that it makes no sense.

Common_Cents

ehud

This is not acceptable in any way. If this can’t be corrected through the democratic process then we are going to have either a secession or a revolution.

‘When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty’

The government clearly does not fear us and I am very scared of Obama and Congress.
E Pluribus Unum

Unfortunately it wont cone in time to save us alot of pain, but this, if it passes, is going to cause open revolt. By states.

djemi

I might as well just send you your case of Guinness right now

mbecker908

countessolenska

With the Medicaid expansion in this bill, can’t states just say they can’t do it. California can’t expand their health care obligations – that’s for sure!!
janis

capped the Medicaid rolls in this state and has said that trying to load the states up with new Medicaid recipients will force many states to go bankrupt.

Wise words from a man who spent over 28+ million dollars to build a “party bunker” in the front yard of the governor’s mansion in Nashville because the mansion just wasn’t big enough to handle the big receptions that the Gov. needed to have and they were tired of having to have whopping big tents on the lawn for those events. So what did they do when the grand opening for the underground party bunker occurred? They had to put up a whopping big tent on the lawn because the bunker couldn’t handle the 450 invited guests.

That 28+ million dollars would have been nice to have in the rainy day fund these days because it’s just pouring outside with debt as far as the eye can see.

DavidSage

I was also one of those that whined about what Republicans were doing when they were in power, but I feel incredibly stupid now. Conservatives were up in arms over pork barrel public works projects that made up less than 1% of our budget. This is what REAL big government looks like. I would trade “Big Government” Bush for anything right now. I would also prefer Senator Stevens from Alaska and pay for all his bridges rather than have this bill pass.

This vote though will destroy every elected Democrat outside of the blue states. Nelson is gone, along with around 12 other Democrat Senators that come from states that go red by double digits every election. After this, no one is going to buy the line”Blue Dog Democrat”.

countessolenska

…to buy the votes of seniors, and they got us in two wars that were not paid for. You can’t get much more big government than that. Remember Madison’s words. “Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded.”

It’s all about each party trying to capture “groups” to sustain their power.

janis

much more big government than that”? ORLY? It wasn’t the Iraq or Afghanistan wars that racked up the deficits, it was the spending on entitlements. From No Child Left Alone (deliberate) to Part D to a whole host of other big-spending programs, it’s the entitlements that are bankrupting us.

Leave the wars out of it unless you’d like to explain why we shouldn’t have gone to Afghanistan to begin with and I don’t even care what your thoughts are on Iraq.
penguin2

paid for.” You are here bashing Republicans again, and I’ve asked you recently if you could clarify your political ideology, to which you did not respond.

http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

I do so now. Her posting history is full of little gems like this.

Richard Mullins

We really have a Ronulan that tries to look like a conservative.
janis
eburke
penguin2

to prove to her and the mods about her malfeasance in being here. Well, with this evidence it ought to be enough……

penguin2

Here are the links where you stated that “terrorists were criminals with an ideology.” and my questioning of your ideology, at which point you played semantics.

http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2009/12/13/reminder-to-libertarians-and-independents-of-what-the-democrats-stand-for/#comment-3517

And my response and question to you.

http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2009/12/13/reminder-to-libertarians-and-independents-of-what-the-democrats-stand-for/#comment-3525

You spout Obamaisms and anti-Republican rhetoric. This site is not for that.

countessolenska

I have explained my political philosophy on here. I stated my very first day that I was not a Republican and that I might have problems here because of that. I am a registered non-partisan because I think both parties are corrupt.
janis

In the time to come, your “purity” will avail you nothing. You can either get down in the trenches and fight with the rest of us or you can get rolled over with the rest of the useful idiots when the government chooses to do it.

For all practical purposes, your voice might as well be silent because it says nothing of use to anyone.
The_Gadfly

That means so far to the left you can’t even fake being centrist enough to be a Democrat.

And I didn’t even have to slog through most of your posts.

Third Street

You’ve finally given yourself away, countess. I guess next you’re going to fret about how Americans “were not asked to make sacrifices in a time of war” by having their taxes jacked up 10,000.

Well, you’re about to get your wish on massive tax increases, so in spite of your rhetoric here I figure you must secretly be overjoyed.

countessolenska

The wars were funded with supplemental spending bills that were not part of the regular budget. They’re still not paid for. Yes, entitlement spending is the largest segment of the budget, but defense is right up there.

janis

provide us with the amounts spent on both in the budget year 2009. And then let’s compare those amounts.

Be sure to include every single figure for every single entitlement from every single department.
http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

I’m proud to be from the same state as you!
janis

We’re still looking at rain, mud, more rain and lots more mud. But it’s getting colder and they’re still promising snow for tonight.

We might have ONE WHOLE INCH OF ACCUMULATION! On the plus side, there’s enough really sloppy mud in our pastures to make sledding on that a possibility.
http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

But plenty of snow to melt. If the power goes out I have a copy of both the House and Senate bill (no, not Harry’s unseen one) to print out and burn.
janis

Burning them would, I’m fairly sure, release some pretty toxic smoke.
Either that or make the demons contained therein to appear…

Sorry about the no water thing. Been there more times than I
wish to remember. Will hope that you get some warmer temps in the next 24 hours or so.
countessolenska

And we have less and less control over what they spend it on. I don’t care if it’s more government nannyism or more wars for vague and shifting reasons. We are losing control and we need to get it back. If you choose to work within the Republican Party, fine. I just don’t know if that’s going to work.
janis

sure won’t. So how do you propose to get control back from some obscure third party stronghold full of kooks and pacifists?

And your pathetic response is not what I asked for. As Art points out, you don’t even know what you’re talking about in terms of how the government works in funding things.

You don’t even have a hat to go with your “no cattle”.
Achance

in this discussion. Some elemental knowledge is sorta necessary even for successful mobying. You use a supplemental for expenditures that you don’t want to add to the base budget or for things that were not in the current year base budget. Whether or not it is a supplemental has nothing to do with whether it is supported by revenue or borrowing; it could be either or some of both.
countessolenska

Supplemental spending bills are not part of the regular budget, and are therefore deceptive. I agree that they are paid for through revenue or borrowing.

It still doesn’t change the fact that the wars were run on the same borrow and spend philosophy that we’re running on for other spending – and they were way more expensive than the public realizes.
Achance
countessolenska

That’s the problem.

I certainly don’t claim to be a budget expert. It’s just plain to me that Washington spends too much money. Things feel as though they are spiralling out of control. And, the people have no control over their elected representatives.

I’m thinking what’s needed is a state-centered movement against the federal government. I don’t know if that’s possible. Maybe there will be lawsuits against this new legislation on the part of some states.
penguin2

I’m still waiting on your justification for using Obamaisms.
So far, we have blame Blush, blame Republicans, anti-war rhetoric and your stated….”terrorists as criminals with an ideology.” Please see my links I have helpfully provided.
countessolenska

Despite your antagonism.
penguin2

And maybe I am not up to par today and feeling like it is okay what you are doing, because it is not.
countessolenska

I’m TRULY concerned, and have been for quite some time. The pending passage of this bill is just compounding my concern. Is that what you mean?
Leopard1996

Which is come on this site, act like you are some sort of conservative, but start trashing everything that being a conservative/republican stands for. You bitching (and I will probably be banned but you are really pissing me off as well as everybody else here), about how there is no difference in the two parties, and anti republican messages, when I haven’t heard you say a damn thing wrong about the liberals and the s(*t they are peddling, is not contributng to to anything and leads me to believe that you are not here at all in good faith.
countessolenska

I have said nothing but bad things about this legislation and how it must be stopped. I have written to Senators multiple times begging them to stop this bill. That was my reason for coming here, because I desperately wanted the Republicans to stop this march toward increased dependency on the federal government. I was hoping against hope that they could do it. The fact that they appear to have failed is making me search for some other solution to the problems we face and will continue to face.

Sorry if this upsets you.
Leopard1996

But what have you supported that would come close to the three legs of the conservative stool, or two legs of the conservative stool. You seem, to at least be able to talk a good game about fiscal conservatism, but when it comes to at least one of the other legs, I find your dedication lacking. Especially when you quote an idiot super lib like Hamsher to espouse your point that we need to scrap both parties, which we know they may be saying that on the other side, but they never will, hence we are the ones committing to destroying the party that at least agrees within it’s planks, of Stong National defense, fiscal conservatism, and traditional social values, giving the liberals the full ability to continue in their ways.

Instead maybe people wouldn’t be upset with you and questioning your conservatism if instead you would espouse maybe looking at GOP candidates in primaries, and the one that seems too establishment does not get your support, or do things like maybe donate to a Marco Rubio, Chuck Devore, etc. Saying that we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it relates to the only existing thing right now that can stand in opposition to the Democrat/Liberal party is nowhere near the answer.

For me, I am not the biggest social conservative, and feel that those issues should go to the states in the first place, but I am staunchly against huge government spending, espeically on things that are not covered in the enumerated powers of the Constitution. I am also a strong national defense conservative that if it takes a war in Afganistan, and Iraq to make sure the enemy is busy fighing a home game instead of taking their game on the road and possibly killing me and mine, I have no problem with that either.
countessolenska

I am socially conservative on some things, and can see the value of strengthening the traditional family structure. It actually would benefit our economy as well as be better for kids. I just don’t think these things can be forced on people. Incentives have to be created.

Consumerism is to blame for many of our problems as well, but this culture of “things” could be a result of something lacking in our social and family connections.

I am not a national security conservative per se. I favor strengthening our borders and serving as an example to other nations of how a democratic, free and moral nation should behave. I’m not opposed to the use of force. I’m just not a fan of invasion and occupation to accomplish our national security goals.

My main concern is the U.S. economy and remaining the economic leader in the world. I don’t want to be #2 behind China. I think the growth of government is putting the U.S. into second-rate status. And, I think it is bad for people and our country for people to “expect” that government will do everything for us. It takes away self-reliance.
Leopard1996

Then maybe start aiming your guns at the liberals and the democrats first.
penguin2

As I read your response of your sincere concern, it struck me that I don’t know and would like to, what specifically bothers you. Is it just the cost…or would it be abortion restrictions (if they end up in the bill), or the lack of restrictions as regards the government paying for abortions with our tax dollars, or is the increased burden on the states with Medicaid, the lack of the public option or do you want a public option? Is there any concern on your part regarding the government takeover of 1/6th of the economy and the invasive intrusion, by government of our lives?

Leopard 1996, makes a very good point, how you point out specifics against Republicans, but not the liberals or Leftists. You speak in generalities and it just doesn’t ring true. If you are a non-partisan, then what exactly bothers you about the bill?
Leopard1996

That would be something that I would like to know. Not for nothing I am also a “non-partisan”, but I also know that that if I have a pizza pie, I would rather eat 2/3 rds of if vs 1/3 of it, which is to say that I would throw a candidate under the bus for being a strong social conservative, if they were a strong National defense, and strong fiscal conservative. However I would not lend my support to a social conservative peacenik, or a social conservative, big governement spender either.

The social conservatism part of conservatism does take a back seat to National defense and fiscal conservatism for me, but I am not one to throw social conservatives under the bus and thell them shut up and sit down either.
penguin2

She does some broad flinging about fiscal issues, but does not give specifics anywhere. And even setting aside social conservative concerns, she has several times made remarks that indicate she is anti-military, as she did today upthread, and her calling the Islamic extremists, “criminals with an ideology” vs the terrorists they are, making her purpose in being here suspect, and has for some time.

And as I just caught her response above, very nice and general, but not the specifics about the HC bill, and that does not undo her previous nuanced comments.
Leopard1996
penguin2

gets my point.
eburke

That is all.

garbear

about how Republicans in Congress spent too much and didn’t hold to conservative principles. True to a point, but I don’t take the keys from someone who’s had one beer and hand them to another who’s downed a bottle of Crown Royal. Besides, such comments about how Republicans behaved in DC does NOT explain the stupidity of people in CONSERVATIVE states like Montana, AR, NC, VA, IN, and WV sending liberal Democrats to Washington. If those states had voted for senator the way they have generally voted for President we wouldn’t be in this mess. (I say that knowing that some of those states voted for Obama.) So I’ll conclude with a shout out to IN, AR, WV, VA, MT, and NC: thanks so much and I hope you enjoy the consequences of how you voted.

countessolenska

What would have happened if McCain had been elected and Republicans controlled Congress – or even if Democrats controlled Congress? We probably would have open borders by now!! And, spending would not have changed much – maybe just spent on slightly different priorities.

Scope

Last week, when the Libertarian diary was up, you were all over it supporting and complimenting your commrades Hermes and Brian B with the trash they were posting, and all the while adding more fuel to the fire. I know Hermes was banned. I don’t know what happened to Brian B. Yet, you are still here, continuing your onslaught of trashing everything Republican. When I read your posts of this morning, I was about to type the same kind of comments that my fellow Redstaters have posted above, in response to your garbage, however, I had to help my husband shovel more than 2 feet of snow.

I completely agree with penguin, you have more than outed yourself, and do not belong on this site. It is just a matter of time until the mods ban you to a place where we all will be relieved of your anti-Republican, anti-American screetchings. My ears ring whenever I read any of your comments.

Menlo

The notion that future elections, which likely won’t even be affected by this, would be a remedy is nonsensical. Elections will not matter anymore.

WarEagle01

The language in the manager’s amendment is no where near Stupak. If the Hyde amendment is not renewed for just one year, then federal funding of abortion is back on. Apparently, the present value of 30 pieces of biblical silver is a few hundred million in Medicaid funding and an invitation to the White House Superbowl party.
Leopard1996

And watching these scumbags doing their damn victory lap. How in the Hell can can they stand there and celebrate this when we all know that this is going to destroy us in the end. I hear Reid talking about small busines tax breaks and stuff, is he lying? How does that square with the taxing of high cost tax plans.

This makes me sick, and I vow in 2010, at least in my CD, that I am going to work and fight as hard as I can to make sure that this democrat scumbag does not get reelected.

P.S. Right now I just heard Harkin say that we are building a starting home, so they are going to come to the till again for expanding this POS. Disgraceful.
ehud

I have not been hearing republicans say this on TV, and have not heard the argument much on the blogs. But the American people need to that as it is an incontrovertible argument. Any 10 year old that reads the Constitution could realize the federal govt does not have the power to do this. And just because 9 black robed tyrants say they can doesn’t make it so.

It seems there is a flaw in our system in that there is no real check on the Supreme Court if Congress is impotent and cowardly and corrupt.

redneck_hippie

the congresscritters the question, “whether the Constitution gives Congress the authority to make Americans buy health insurance.”

The sales of Mark Levin’s book, Liberty & Tyranny, of over a million copies tells me that this issue is in the forefront of the minds of many.
nessa

Rather than support and defend the Constitution as they are charged, they knowingly sneak legislation past it, knowing full well it will be years before SCOTUS rules on it and that is only if the SCOTUS absolutely must.

I have to wonder why the Republicans roll over so easy on questions of constitutionality. Could it be they don’t object to the resultant increase in power?

Leopard1996

That is what happens when you have lawyers running the show. Lawyers by trade, are there to try to parse a contract so that their client can get away with something. Why would they not take the same approach to the constitution.

Kyle-MI

The most radical pro-abortion Senators are on board with his so-called compromise. This is not anywhere close to the same as the Stupak amendment in the House. Abortions will be funded through the federal government.

I would call what he got a fig leaf, but it will fool nobody. Nelson is now in the pro-abortion camp.

Will be curious what the pro-life groups and the Catholic bishops say about it. There is no way they can in good conscious give it their approval.

mbecker908

None.

And there never have been.

I don’t know about the Bishops, but the United Methodist Church in Nebraska will be giggly.

http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

Other than that small quibble, your point is right on.

Third Street

Or he wouldn’t have been a Democrat.
mbecker908

When you support the people who front for Planned Parenthood and do everything possible to fund abortions worldwide, you’re NOT pro-life.

Casey is every bit the butcher Barbara Boxer is. And I hope he roasts in hell with her.

Richard Mullins

That all Democrats are pro-death until proven otherwise. A Pro-Life Democrat is an oxymoron now.
mbecker908

Period.

Leave the Democratic Party, renounce their pro-death beliefs, register Republican.

skat

Our small business provides services to other businesses throughout the country. Three businesses this week told us they are hanging on by a thread, but if anything else happens, their business is bankrupt. We laid off 2 more employees last week, which including part-timers brings our total lay-offs to 20 for 2009, and cut our last 2 down to 20 hours. This is the first time in 25 years we’ve laid off employees vs hiring additional employees. If this healthcare bills goes through, that will be it for many, many businesses.

izoneguy

Doctors – especially older doctors will throw in the towel. The future of healthcare will look like a combination of the DMV and the unemployment office…..

About 10 years ago I was running a business that had 12 employees. Even back then it just got ridiclious – I cannot imagine how smaller business’s will survive. But wasn’t this Obama’s goal all along?
Economic Facism is HERE…..
Old_Crow

Including me.
That’s going to be the way of the future, with a more underground economy – hiding from the government terminators.

I lived in Iceland for a few years while on active duty. I was amazed at the sophistication of their underground economy – businesses ‘trading’ goods and services with other businesses, a complex a very large system built to avoid the government overlords. I felt so blessed that we, in the U.S., didn’t have to create such false nonsense… But here we are.

Achance

Probably are anyway if the IRS or USDOL really wanted to pay attention. I assure you that once they get CommieCare in place, the IRS and USDOL will be paying attention, especially in Red States and in workplaces where the ownership might be politically unreliable.

Old_Crow

It is simply too risky to continue business-as-usual in this uncertain sea of Cap-’n-Trade, Healthcare ‘Reform’, etc.

I did quite a bit of international flying this past year, helping my business expand overseas. The planes were full of folks looking to move part of, or their entire business overseas.
It’s a growing market for consultants.
Congress better wake up.

Achance

The unions absolutely mean to stop companies from using contractors and closing US operations. If, and I really mean as soon as, they get Card Check, pretty much as soon as a union can claim one card at your business, you’re essentially under the NLRB’s supervision and if you try to contract out or relocate, they’ll just allege that you’re doing it as a union avoidance exercise, which is an unfair labor practice.
Old_Crow

forward to doing this, but my business is in survival mode. We are moving fast, already have some work being done outside the US.

We are considering moving the HQ and base, just need to find the right country. Congress cannot keep companies from leaving the US, heck the U.S. isn’t even that great of a market anymore – so we’d punt the US market if Congress made it too difficult to operate here.

Congress has no idea of the damage that is about to occur in the business market. By 2011, it will be decimated. A country of government employees and fast-food restaurants with business innovation and finance being done outside the U.S..

Yes, it’s that bad.
Achance

when I said that if you were looking for the old SDS and all the other communist front groups from the ’60s, you need look no further than contemporary union leadership, especially the big wall-to-wall public and service employee unions and the old CIO unions like UAW and IAM – unions that never really cut their communist ties.

Well, those people and people they own are running America and if you’re a Democrat, you can’t get elected without them. Frankly, even in many Republican states, you can’t get elected over their concentrated opposition.
Old_Crow

a few years ago (different job). I remember thinking 23 years in the military, and I finally meet my first communist right here in NYC.

They were actually saying “From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”.

I know this is not news to you, but it shocked me at that time.
Achance

was one for a few years with the Laborers back in the Pipeline days. They could be thuggish, but they understood that everybody had to make money and you could do business. I got far away from that world for awhile, out in private business, then with the Fed, until Wife 1.0 and I split and I had the then 13 yr. old daughter. Couldn’t very well bounce around rural Alaska for weeks at the time and take care of a teenaged daughter, so I went to work back in labor relations for the State in ’87, just as the price of oil and Alaska’s budgets crashed. By ’88 the strain was too great on the independent employee association that represented the bulk of our white and gray collar employees and they were decertified by AFSCME. We had a Democrat governor, so we couldn’t interfere in the decert, but once they got in they were so demanding and obnoxious that the Governor really turned against them. One of my prouder moments is the year and a half and $20 million it took them to get their first contract.

Anyway, I was no virgin and had seen a lot of hardball in the Pipeline days, but I simply couldn’t believe the AFSCME guys from DC they sent out to deal with us. It wasn’t that they were hardball so much and they certainly weren’t a threat beyond dropping on dime on you, but they were SOOOO corrupt and unscrupulous. It didn’t take me long to figure out that I wasn’t dealing wiht old-fashioned American trade unionists, I was dealing with communist agitators and organizers. Now, most of them didn’t really even know what they were, they were just following their AFSCME training manuals, but if you’d read Alinsky and were up on your Marx, Lenin, and Mao, they were easy to understand. Long about there, I figured out that the world had changed and the rest is history; I even became a Republican!
Old_Crow

folks while in the military. Almost impossible to get rid of
one of them even with inches of documentation.

Regarding the UAW, I got along fairly well with the shop
stewards, basically decent folks that you could reason – to some extent with.

You are 100% correct regarding union “management”.
They don’t know they are marxist/communists and you
can gain some leverage by reading up on your Marx and Mao.
At least you will know what you’re dealing with.

I always appreciate you perspective.
Achance

is more a management issue than anything else; you can get rid of them if you know how. I and my progeny became superb practitioners of the “German Choice” especially with high profile or union leadership types. And then a lot we just duked it out and went through the grievance procedure and arbitration and won. Some of my “alumni” love me so much still that they even show up here from time to time to say “good” things about me. I always loved being hated so long as it was the right people who hated me.

mom2oneson

he had the big unions write a bill that will probably be re-intorduced. The companies that hire a lot of independent contractors re so scared they have been arranging meetings with their ICs and congresscritters for about a year to ask them not to support that bill and two other ones. I’m sure us poor single mothers and (grandmothers with custody) with health problems working at home for peanuts already most on food stmaps and medicaid are making a great impression. They are give dire warnings to the contractors to contact their critters or else the sweat shop will go out of business. (bigeyeroll)
Keep your i’s dotted on your IC stuff, changes might be soon.

Common_Cents

I’ve been lookin at starting various online businesses and will also check into getting it incorporated and setup outside the country.

The pure stupidity of our leaders is they acknowledge global competition where it benefits them and ignore it when it doesn’t benefit them. Pure stupidity.

bs

This was destined to happen from the day cloture passed to put the bill on the Senate floor. Again – you have underestimated Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi’s ability to control their caucus and you have underestimated the sheer irrationality of the Democrats.

http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

I am not surprised by the inability of the Republicans in the Senate to act on principle and use every Senate parliamentary rule to slow this unconstitutional bill down. I am not surprised that the Senate Republicans would not start every argument against the bill with an argument about it not being within the Article 1, Section 8 enumerated powers.

Why am I not surprised? Because we have a Republican Party with too few conservatives within its voting ranks. For example, here in Maricopa County, AZ, despite all that has gone on in DC since Teleprompter Manchild and his speech writers won the election, of the 692,000 registered Republicans on the voter rolls, only about 1,000 of them thought it might be time to join the other 1,989 as precinct committeemen within the Party itself as voting members of it. So, about 3,300 spots go unfilled. What signal does this send to Kyl and McCain? Not much of one, apparently. Not one that tells them, “Oooo, look at all those hopping mad, energized conservatives back home in Maricopa County — the status quo has really changed and I better act more like a real conservative.” Just the opposite. Business as usual. Because now Maricopa County Republican Party is up to the national average in 2008 — it’s at half strength instead of less than one-third strength. Whoope dee f!@$%^& doo!)

“We the [do nothing conservative] people” get the government we deserve.

Now do you think it might be time to take your Party back at the grass roots?

Thank you.
ColdWarrior

aesthete

with the Senate Dems as one of the architects of our defeat. Had we street fighters in Congress, rather than the pantywaist eunuchs who care more about preening attempts at “comity” than actually accomplishing something.

On second thought, I apologize for calling our fine Congressmen eunuchs: it’s an insult to eunuchs everywhere to associate them with our crapweasels.

http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

…burn in Kentucky will suffice.

http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

.

djemi

mbecker908

djemi
http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

..
Third Street

Ausonius

That was simply a ploy: the Dems, as the “realistic pessimists” have predicted, were always going to pass something, because BIG BRObama will not be allowed to fail.

There is no such thing as a “pro-life Democrat” or a “”fiscally conservative Democrat” or an “independent” who is not on the Dems side.

The only thing left is to campaign constantly to expose every bit of Evil in this monster, to work for its long-term destruction, and to unseat every despicable Dem in the government.

And that means ALL of them!!!

Common_Cents

djemi

http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/print.asp?id=423054

So there is simply no way to pay for any of this

izoneguy

“The United States cannot force foreign governments to increase their holdings of Treasuries,” Zhu said, according to an audio recording of his remarks. “Double the holdings? It is definitely impossible.”

“The US current account deficit is falling as residents’ savings increase, so its trade turnover is falling, which means the US is supplying fewer dollars to the rest of the world,” he added. “The world does not have so much money to buy more US Treasuries.”

China continues to see its foreign exchange reserves grow, albeit at a slower pace than in past years, due to a large trade surplus and inflows of foreign investment. They stood at US$2.3 trillion at the end of September.

At this rate the US will be insolvent before “Universal Healthcare” even takes effect. People will just quit. Why bother working if the government takes it all?

janis

percentage of taxation, izone. Just like they have no problem with spending ever larger percentages of the GDP. And all their spending is based on a growing GDP.

Yeah, like that’s going to happen.

izoneguy

They are gutting the golden goose.

There won’t be any economy left in America to pay for this. They will come after the people with land & valuables and sell it to the highest foreign bidder.

janis

we will be directly ruled by our new Chinese overlords. They won’t let some foreign entity take what they’ve already bought.
http://www.the41stvote.org rcov092

http://discoverthenetworks.com

redneck_hippie

79 percent and then 90 percent.” during the course of his presidency. – Lawrence W. Reed, as quoted in Liberty & Tyranny, Chapter 6,On the Free Market.

izoneguy

Get the screws put to them. Obama will demand at least 90% from anyone making over $10,000,000 per year. Liberals or not….
Wait until Will Ferrell is “only” keeping $1 million per film…..

Jack_Savage

But I told you so.

The simple fact is that the Dems realize they will never have this sort of power again, and they will never, ever pass up a chance to exert more power over our lives via legislation. Ever. When the choice of more power vs no power is presented to them, as it was in this health care bill, they will always choose more power. Simple as that.

As for opposition? They see themselves as the parent taking their child to get a shot. The child hates it, but it will be best for them in the long run. He gets a pat on the head and some ice cream and is sent on his way, just like the American electorate.

janis

And that pat on the head thing felt a whole lot more like assault with a blunt weapon.

eburke

Rocky Road would somehow seem appropriate.

janis

I’m thinking at this point that “Moosetracks” would be even nicer.

And with my ice cream, I’ll be drinking the coffee brand “Chock Full ‘o Nuts”. Will that work?

eburke

…our minds are starting to do the Vulcan mind-meld thing. As I was debating as to the various flavors of ice cream which would fit the occasion, it came down to “Rocky Road” or ……Moose Tracks.

If I were you…I’d be concerned.

And, btw, per one of your other comments, I’ve been physically ill all day as I’ve watched our country take yet one more step towards serfdom thanks to whores like Ben Nelson (with all due respect to the world’s oldest profession) so your ‘weep inconsolably vs vomit uncontrollably’ not ony struck home, but , as only you can do, it elicited a chuckle from me on a day which was overwhelmingly dark and dreary.

On days like today, I don’t know what I’d do w/out my ‘family’ at RS.

Sigh!
janis

with yours, eburke. Trust me, you’re getting the short end of that deal. And you’re right, we either stand together– and make each other laugh– or hang separately and weep like Voinovich when he hears John Bolton’s name.

I’m going out laughing in their faces if it comes down to that and I’m taking my pointy stick with me.

Dan Perrin

I still have hope that our opponents on the left can post a single Senator, or two.

Senator Nelson sold out his state and the country for printed money.

It is really sick — the Nebraska polls show 73% at NO.

Return to Revolution

You have enslaved me, my family, and a nation. You have handed my special needs daughter – who we can care for perfectly fine ourselves – a death sentence or at least significantly reduced life expectancy.

You think all of our lives are available for sacrifice at the altar of your depraved moral “justice”.

We are truly about to see dark days. And all of the blood will be on the hands of the leftists.

ehud

With govt control of healthcare, all of us are either going to suffer more from sickness at some point in our life OR we’re going to have close family members who are going to have to endure a lot of pain that will last longer or may not be cured because the bureaucrats aren’t going to give us the care we’d get if there was a real free market.

Therefore, we should all take this healthcare vote very personally. It is the democrats causing actual physical suffering to our children. And that doesn’t even count the money they are stealing and all the economic pain.

janis

The World War II generation still alive in this country. They didn’t deserve this. My folks are both in their 80′s, both still as active as possible, both still living in their own long-ago paid for home. My dad was in the Army in WWII and gets a small disability check because of it. Yet he and my mother have always worked hard to stand on their own two feet and pay their own way. Their insurance premiums were almost crippling in their cost before they were eligible to be on Medicare, yet they paid them.

Had it not been for Medicare over the past 15 years in particular, both would be dead by now. And now that program, which this generation definitely paid their dues for, is going to be drastically cut at a time when these people deserve the best quality of life that we can offer them.

There is no profanity vile enough to describe what these power-grabbing monsters are doing.

Return to Revolution

cari

Is he on board, too? He voted 6 times with the Repubs on amendments that all went down, and has a history of voting against bills that don’t adopt his amendments. Anyone heard about him?

sybilll

Anyone know? I think I’m clinging to any sign of hope, as I am gobsmacked right now.

earlgrey

conventional wisdom was that he was waiting to see what Nelson would do and would probably have followed him that way. I have seen some posts from VA residents claiming to get emails from Webb about how good this bill would be for VA.

That was the reason for my post below, that a dem could be a hero in a red state by switching parties and defeating this. Webb could do that if he cared too. Obviously he doesn’t.

I don’t get why Lieberman decided to make liberals mad about the public option and then proceed to make conservatives (if there are any in CT) mad by voting for the rest of the bill. It makes no sense.

penguin2

go along with this. But he and Warner are just party men and as I think there are winds of change in Virginia, maybe it will carry over to 2012 and get him. I wonder if any of them are thinking about the other things Obama is going to push down their throats in 2010 and they will be expected to go along with it, since they caved on this piece of trash.

earlgrey

vote for cloture and against the bill? Are they for sure positive on the cloture?
penguin2

the bill. And nothing will be able to hide it. One thing the Dems are forgetting, is all of the bad stuff on increased premiums, and taxes start now, without any of the benefits until 2014. We held out this whole year, the Americans against this will only grow as their will was denied. I suspect there will plenty of ads that show how the Dems are all responsible for this. I don’t see Obama’s popularity increasing and there are no longer any coattails. Dan above (or somewhere in this thread), noted Nebraska has 73% of the people against, that certainly is going to show up at the ballot box. I’ll have to see what polls show for Virginia.

earlgrey

can become a hero by switching to the republican party and stopping this nonsense. Why not?

http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

And I wouldn’t trust any of these senators from this Democrat line up who did change parties. I would immediately tag them as a plant so Reid and Obama could claim “bipartisanship” when they end up voting with the Dems after all.

earlgrey

this bill is so bad, that I have to believe there are dem senators that don’t want it for this country.

I am now wondering while everyone was rejoicing when Specter left the ranks. This was the nail in our coffin. Yeah he was unpredictable, but if he were still a repub. how would he have voted on this?

redneck_hippie

as I’ve thought since day one. Any D in opposition would have to switch parties. And at this point, I am sure Reid has told his puppets they had to have come out with their objections already, as they don’t want to have to change the bill and re-score it.

Will any further amendments be allowed and/or offered?
Swamp_Yankee

Okay, I’m not going to there. Its in bad taste. But its awfully tough for that Old Bird, Byrd, to get around in this weather with the cold and ice and all.

Imagine if his doctor or caretaker forbade him from leaving his home.

earlgrey

we are all thinking that way.

I still don’t see why Nelson raised so many objections and then caved for so little. There must be more to that story than we will ever know.

ceili_dancer

n/t

aeaeren

I don’t think Harry has gone far enough yet, we still have people who think Democrat’s are great and still keep voting for them. I hope the “Progressives” keep pushing so we can avoid the frog in the boiling water mentalitily that has been going on for years and get right to the fire. I would rather see Harry united the country via over reaching then see the guns being brought out and Freedom being restored via the gun!
duke87

we are witnessing a coup. How can we win in 2010 if they ram through an amnesty bill before then. My sense is that they have no compunction about making any pretense with respect to honoring constituent concerns. As Dan said, they have blatantly ignored the fact that the majority of Americans do not want this “reform.” Socializing 16% of the economy is too important for their long term plans. Given the anemic and impotent fight put forth by our elected Republican officials I am sure the Democrats plan on pushing immigration reform ASAP. How can we overcome 12M new voters in the 2010 elections? I am sure any amnesty bill would create “immediate” amnesty. This healthcare legislation is just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully, this was a wakeup call to the House and Senate Republicans that the time for niceties is over. And, yes, I’m doing my part….I’m in the process of becoming a Precint Committee Person while trying to keep my small business afloat. Every Conservative has to get actively involved NOW. We don’t have time for “woe is me.” There are more fights to come and we need to “reload” and do better. This is a marathon, not a sprint.
louisiana

Republicans have to take off the gloves, & put on the brass knuckles. The Dems have declared war, plain & simple. If there’s one thing I have learned in all of this is that there are no rules anymore. We are in the fight of our lives & can no longer afford to be the “nice” guys.

Dan Perrin

treasury and debt and taxes to buy off whatever opposition exists, and the “opponents” are not principled — they want to be bought off.

Achance

though not this bad. In ’94, Democrat Tony Knowles essentially lied his way into office as Governor of Alaska – of course with some third party help, AIP, because the Republican wasn’t pure enough. Knowles had played the same centrist game that all the newly minted Ds do to get themselves into power. Of course, immediately upon assuming office, he sets himself above the fray and behind a PR shield managed by his COS and a sycophantic media. Sound familiar? Then he has all his agency heads turn the whole government as sharply left as they dared. Sound familiar?

Now the part that was different and the reason that we aren’t the People’s Republic of Alaska is that we hung on to the Legislature and even increased to a nominally veto-proof majority by the third year of his first term. We couldn’t always maintain the veto-proof majority because of fecklessness and avarice, but we did always keep a majority in both bodies in opposition to the Administration. Now I’ll admit that the opposition sometimes went to far; if the Governor wanted something, he couldn’t have it even if we thought it was a good idea.

That isn’t what we have here; we had just enough votes to stop this if the Rs had been united from the beginning. They should have stayed the Party of No from the get go. All the amending and unanimous consents and cooperativeness has allowed this bill to come to fruition and it doesn’t matter now what the Rs do. Now the only thing to do is make them own it, but I don’t know that the People will care.
earlgrey

what is the point of keeping up the fight. Many people were saying ealry on that if this goes through it will change America forever, and there is no going back.

If that is the case, and there are many reasons to say that it is the case, than what is the point of fighting for the Rubios to win elections. What is the point of keeping up the fight?

Conservatives are awake really in my view more than ever. I don’t think even under Reagan did we really understand the uniqueness of our country and the value of our liberty. Reagan lead us, but now the people must lead. Our Dear Leader is not as gifted as he would think. Many are disenchanted with him. That is a big deal. He can’t motivate us towards his way (he can’t even do that with his own party). He can only use threats. How long will that work?

There is nothing like losing something to fully understand the value of what you have lost. That is where we sit today. If, as more realize the extent or our loss can we undo the damage?

I asked yesterday in a post — will conservatives be demoralized when HCR pases or fired up? Now I am asking — will it matter?

eburke

and we’ve got no choice but to continue the fight.

As strikeeagle so beautifully posited in a diary a few weeks ago, if General McAuliffe could reply to an surrender demand from the Germans with a defiant “NUTS!!” (translated by a German officer as ‘Go to hell!) when he was seemingly facing insurmountable odds, we can and must do no less.

So….Harry, Nancy, Bambi, Ben, Joe, and the rest of you socialistic crap weasels, here’s my reply to your un-American assault on our liberties:

NUTS!!!!!

Let’s roll!

janis

and elect some principled fighters. The ones in office, with very few exceptions, have no stomach for brass knuckles, and no spines in evidence.

Dan Perrin

complete weakness and a lack of conviction.

It’s a joke.
eburke

You’re probably one of those ‘purists’ who’ve been accused on other threads of being responsible for the state of the GOP because of your refusal to endorse such GOP establishment ‘winners’ as Snarlin’ Arlen, Linc Chafee, Charlie Crist, Carly Fiorina, ScuzzyFuzzy and the moderate maverick who could’ve single-handedly saved the party if we’d have just been smart enough to nominate him – Johnny Mac.

I hope you’re satisfied.

::rolling eyes::

janis

I long for the days when we could look up to the likes of Lincoln Chafee, Arlen Specter, and JMac,….

(Good Lord, as I said to penguin2 elsewhere, I’m not sure whether to weep inconsolably or vomit uncontrollably.)

avgamerican

There are not enough true conservatives to reverse the political decay in motion. There are too many progressives in power. The natural cultural progressive decay has brought us to this point. With the the culture in its current form, it is impossible to throw out enough liberals to make a difference. It might slow the downward progression, but it won’t prevent it.

eburke

avgamerican

Continue to speak truth and pray. Then Leave the rest to God.

eburke

Richard Mullins

So it’s the electorate fault for voting the idiot Pro-death democrats and independents. We wouldn’t have been in this problem if that didn’t happen. The best thing anyone can do with a Donk or one that in the Donks caucus is to email them often enough to resign. If you do it enough, it might work(some might need a bribe). When that happens, we might be able to get somewhere.

countessolenska

According to Jane Hamsher, the liberal blogger who has been quoted on this site recently:

“It’s scary to think that people this obscenely stupid are running the country. All the while, the painfully obvious left/right transpartisan consensus that is coalescing against DC insiders of both parties appears to be taking everyone by surprise.”

That’s the only way things will change, in my opinion, much as people on this site may not agree. An anti-Washington coalition needs to form. Electing new politicians into the same old system will be fruitless. The government is too large, and no one will decrease its size because bigger government means more power.

Scope

She’s been begging you, or defying you to do it. It would be a wonderful Christmas gift to us all.
Scope

She’s been begging you, or defying you to do it. It would be a wonderful Christmas gift to us all.
Dan Perrin

and what you are saying is going to happen regardless of whether it is organized or not.

I think the growth of the independents will accelerate.

Dems will be the chief losers on the party affiliation question.

This betrayal will not be forgotten.

countessolenska

I agree that there will be more independents. Republicans will benefit in the short term because, after this, people will want divided government.
Scope

You have missed her main point. You claim that the Democrats will be the major losers to the independents. The countess is advocating that both parties the R’s and The D’s should lose. So, with your utter dissapointment with what the Republicans have done/not done, are you going in the direction of the countess and now promoting Independents? It seems to me that those that choose to be Independents are not principled in either direction, they vote based on what direction the wind is blowing. Some of us have thanked you for keeping us informed on the path to Obamacare. If you feel that you read the path wrong, you are human, and, it is more than dissapointing that you now seem to be so angry, because your predictions were not spot on, that you have lost rationality. Please, take a day or two off. By then, the whole thing may be still in another direction. I’m getting the feeling that you are now willing to go along with the worst here because you didn’t predict right. Please take some time off.

6eorge Jetson

The Lefties are upset because of to whom our confiscated taxes were directed. But they’ll want to try again.

Sensible conservatives realize that the reason lobbyists purloined our assets is that–as Willie Sutton put it–”because that’s were the money is.”

No kidding. (family version)

Common_Cents

this is what was said this morning by DEM leaders. They aren’t even close to being done with health care.

Now that they have the big ship launched they can add on as they go pretty much unnoticed.

What is doubly scary is there is no lock box for the money they are collecting in the next few years. That ‘health care’ money will be spent on other programs or used to prop up the faux economy enough to win 2012, then the flood gates will open and we’ll be battling another CRISIS to give the elected elite no choice but to take more of our money to actually pay for the health care.

That’s in stone.

Leopard1996

And I can see the Cloward Piven startegy going to work to overwelm what has passed here so hard that you will start getting everyone screaming for a single payer because the private insurers can’t handle what is being dumped in their lap.

Achance

Then, the middle class that already had insurance is screaming that the government MUST DO SOMETHING. That must do something stuff is how most bad legislation gets passed.

Leopard1996

But I could see that too, and see the result of a horrible piece of legislation getting passed to address that issue, then that piece of legislation gets C-P’d so hard that they have to pass something to address that, then we get to the point of single-payer, and then we get the rest of the rationing, “death panels”, and everything else that we see fault with in the European/Canadian style systems.

Achance

not to pass this year’s sexy benefit de jour. It is bad when unions are easier to deal with about benefit costs than Republican legislators who’ve had their heartstrings tugged by some sad tale. At least the unions count the costs and know that if it goes to H&W, it can’t go to wages and their members don’t care about H&W costs.
Dan Perrin

may oppose the bill, but they have not yet.

Scope

for your diligence in keeping us informed of the path this Obamanation has been taking. We are all commiserating with you today.

Dan Perrin

there are plenty of 60 vote margins to go.

http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

Yeah, Nelson is a coward. Didn’t we always know that?

McConnell, nice guy (so was Frist), but no fire in his belly. Inept. Didn’t we always know that.

This isn’t theatre, it’s a war, and that was a battle. We lost.

Next steps?

nessa

Crap and Tax or Card Check? They’ll need both to secure their gains, Crap and Tax to fund the Statist gov’t and drive all industry into their loving arms. Card Check to increase their voting and donating base.

This will make them believe they can resurrect Crap and Tax and have a chance of pushing it through…

Has there been enough impact from climategate to pull votes away on that one?

http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

…and I’m answering with a third cold Oly in my hand.

Actually, this fight’s not over yet on health care. Dan Perrin’s right.

We fight this down to the end, Christmas Eve. I’ll be here, you’ll be here, while Glenn’s on vacation, and Rush, I assume, will be on the 10th tee. (Not sure of his schedule.)

(Do you have any idea how many Tea Partiers and 9/12′ers have tuned all this out because their guru’s on hiatus? The cult of personality is a two-edged sword, it seems. Too bad. Has the Left got us figured out or have they got us figured out?)

I’d like to see a different tack, though. It would be nice if Mitch quit…tonight…but I’m not holding my breath. Everyone (not us here, who can’t do anything anyway) is waiting for someone else to get the ball rolling. The House is waiting on the Senate, the Senate on the House, the Catholic bishops on a snowstorm. If I could, I’d offer Mitch a medicare exemption for Kentucky if he’d only let someone else do this job.

There is no longer any collegiality and comity in the Senate. Reid & Co made sure of that with the rules breach two days ago. So, in a perfect world, the GOP would caucus tonight and literally throw out anyone who isn’t on board, which means probably a third of them. If God loves me as He always promises, Graham and McCain will be among them. Throw in Kay Bailey for the knife she stuck in us yesterday with the appropriations vote.

I’d do a slash and burn on Nelson by 8 AM tomorrow. He’s dead meat if the GOP would only make him dead meat. I can think of 742 ways to say “coward” without saying “coward”, so why can’t the GOP? Why can’t Mitch?

When we lose this vote, (and we will, Dan) there will be a time for gloating…the only thing Obama is still good at…up through January, which should allow time for our diminished senatorial and House forces to have developed a very bodacious action plan.

Our view about the Left’s assault has always been they’ll come at us on all fronts at once, overwhelming us…upsetting not just the dignity, but the bowel movements of the Senate GOP. Cap and Trade is the logical center attack, but the promises made only in the last 24 hours to SEIU and others to keep them on board (we think that a little bit of theater anyway) may make them center stage.

Nessa, I don’t think it will matter which attack we prepare for first. Their tactic, once Health Care passes, will be to overwhelm. so that by the time anyone figures it out, it will be too late. (The recent toss under the bus of the loony Left, Olberman, Daily Cuss and Dean is in part true, we believe…they no longer need them. What does that say?)

There truly is a Quickening, and Health care was the fulcrum. It was ALWAYS the empowering language of the act, not the nuts and bolts, that will kill the Republic.

I just talked to a colleague in Atlanta. He told me, if things move as quickly as they seem, Lady Nan might even expect to gain seats in 2010, so secure will their hold be by November. If so, Ben Nelson is a shoo in for reelection…rather then a sinecure at Soros Inc. Think about the mechanics of that.

Sobering stuff, huh?
Achance

in America with a laser dot on its forehead. I was surprised they went with Cap and Tax and HealthCare first actually. Once they get Card Check, and I think the last couple of days demonstrate that they will, federal elections will be just as meaningful and competitive as union elections. Throw in some “statistical” work on the census and there’ll be two Republicans left in Congress.

redneck_hippie

unlike amnesty and health care. At least the ones that are still in the private sector.

Achance

and its other competitors are as well. Same thing we had with the automakers before the imports and Southern plants changed the game; just do pattern bargaining and this time put up a protectionist barrier. You gotta think like a union guy!
redneck_hippie

I presume that since more businesses are non-union than are union, the opposition would be considerable. The fear here is continuing the nationalization trend. Once Obama owns the plantation lock, stock and barrel (no, that is not a racist statement!) everyone will have their very own Gubmint Card.
mbecker908

basis. In the case of retail, store by store. However, the second the gummit gets behind union organizing in an overt way that fight moves to the front pages of the newspapers, CNN etal and straight to the board room.

Once that happens it’s all over. There’s no more testosterone in the board rooms of big companies than in the Republican leadership. They’ll cave faster than the ’62 Mets.
redneck_hippie
mbecker908

They’ll go get the big chains.

Privately held companies tend to be “small” and likely won’t have the resources for an extended fight.

The more interesting thing will be in financial services.
redneck_hippie

not need to pass card check in order to force unionization?
mbecker908

gives the gummint imprimatur to organizing.
redneck_hippie

was talking about downthread was that business would not be shy about lobbying, advertising, or whatever it took to get rid of the legislation.
Achance

opposition to CommieCare. Think back to HillaryCare and remember how much business oppositon there was; nothing like that this time around. This Administration is not reticent to simply take over your business, take away your government contracts, subject you to denunciation, the whole toolkit.

The NLRB is hardly neutral even in a Republican administrion, in a Democrat administration, the NLRB is just a subsidiary of the unions. That threat will be enough to blunt the business opposition to Card Check, and just like Pharma did with CommieCare, some awfully big and powerful businesses will step right up and tell the World how proud they are to wear the union label – just as long as the givament promises to make sure their major competitors do too.
redneck_hippie

My thought was the business community supported HCR because they thought it would add to their bottom line by alleviating their benefit outlays.

I’ll be interested to see what transpires on Card Check because their is no way the companies can ignore the debacle of unionization in the auto industry. If they go union and they fail they’ll be no better off than GM. So why accept unionization?

mbecker908

Art you’re an optimist.

aesthete

Dan Perrin

If the bill goes to conference and a conference report is issued, they still need 60 votes when the conference report comes to the Senate.

If the bill does not go to conference they need to pass the senate bill on the House floor, which is means all those who voted for Stupak need to vote no and all those 40 who wanted the public option need to vote no. And some of the hard core abortion rights folks need to vote no.

Anyone who lives in VT, IL or WI needs to call Sanders, Burris or Feingold and urge them to vote against cloture because of the corrupt process and because of the lack of a public option.

mbecker908

The Left will whine and take the deal knowing full well that within just a few years the fed will be the single payer and coverage will cover abortion up to and including partial birth.

The Left understands incrementalism. They’ve never given back anything they’ve taken (lost fed welfare for a few years but got it back), and they’ve seen programs and benefits that started out modestly expanded to unthinkable proportions.

Swamp_Yankee

He doesn’t even understand what planet he’s on. There is no reason behind the behavior of people like Maxine Waters and Barbare Lee. They are just bat-crazy. And the Senate Bill drives them insane.

Anything can happen. Roberty Byrd could be hospitalized before the final vote. Lieberman could be having a Hanukkah epiphany.

There is no point in being defeatist.

mbecker908

Actually, the best shot we’ve got is Byrd drops dead. Given his recent statements on the coal industry I’m guessing everybody in West Virginia would show up at the funeral to piss on his grave. There might even be a possibility that a Republican could get elected to replace him.

Short of that, Reid and Nancy will deliver.

http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

(I’m looking for a technical definition, rather than the broad concept.)

And once it has officially gone to conference, are there different rules than when in the ether, and neither at conference or with the House. Assuming a scenario I hope will be averted, if the Dems do get 60 votes Wednesday, does the Senate majority have to send it to either conference or the House, or are there any other options for Reid? And how soon does this decision (if at all) have to be made?

Any analysis you can provide within these micro-steps is appreciated.

http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

And if and when it’s sent to conference, can it be pulled with no changes and sent to the House?
Swamp_Yankee

I Don’t Know. You ask a lot of technical stuff. But I do know that sending it into conference or to the House are the only options for the Seante if the bill is ever to pass.

And the rules are very different in conference. It is behind closed doors and negotiated by designated leaders. After the two bills are reconciled by the leaders, a conference report is created and it goes back to each chamber for another vote.

http://www.suvstrategery.blogspot.com SoFiMil

And want to know how I can do this. I’ll use ever available legal and/or parliamentary means to do so. Okay?

Dan Perrin

just sending the bill directly to the House without a conference, is not the Democrats decision alone.

The Republicans — if McConnell has the courage — could object to the appointment of the conferees.

The real question is — does the bill going to conference make it more or less likely to get 60 votes when the conference report returns to the Senate, or, does sending the bill directly to the house, by objecting to the appointment of the conferees, make the bill more likely to fail in the House.

I guess it depends on if Stupak can hold his votes against the Nelson compromise and if the pro-abortion forces or the pro-public option forces have any ability to force a enough Dems to vote NO.

If the weak Senate GOP leadership objects to the appointment of the conferees, and the House cannot pass the Senate bill, then the House would amend the bill and send it back again to the Senate.

Then we would get another bite at the apple.

Seems to me, now, that the Republicans should object to the appointment of conferees but if the media starts calling McConnell obstructionist, he will fold like a house of cards.

I have no faith in the Senate Republican leadership to object.

Having said that, if the bill does go to conference — if the Republicans let it go to conference — the conference report (which is the merged House and Senate legislation) still needs 60 votes on the Senate floor.

cari

for clarifying that the bill will still need 60 votes. I’ve read several other places today that it will only need 51 after conference.

Is there a procedure for officially questioning the constitutionality of part of the bill, like the individual mandates, or the abortion agreement in the manager’s amendment that Chambliss thinks conflicts with Roe v. Wade? A lawyer I know thought there was a three day “discovery” period that could be filed while the question is researched, but he wasn’t sure.

There’s a big rally planned for Sunday in Omaha. Just maybe it’ll have some effect… or we can always hope Arlen Specter turns traitor just one more time… I just can’t find it in me to give up all hope just yet.

RS

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