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The Best Christmas Present Ever: Senator DeMint Objects to the Appointment of the Conferees

When Senator DeMint engineered, and Republican Leader McConnell actually objected to the appointment of the conferees, he was really handing the ball off to the left wingers — progressives if you will — and now they have their shot to either hold their own clan members who are against the Senate compromises and force them to vote No, or have their policy demands be ignored and take the crumbs from Senator Nelson’s and Senator Lieberman’s table.

Now, because of the Senator DeMint’s objection, unless the House votes for the Senate bill unchanged — which is highly unlikely (see below) — then the Senate ObamaCare bill must be amended on the House floor to gain the votes they need to pass it on the House floor. And because of Senator DeMint’s objection to the appointment of the conferees, there will be no conference, or conference report.

If the House amends the Senate bill, they then have to send the amended bill back to the Senate — where all the 60 vote margin cloture votes still apply — cloture on the motion to proceed, and cloture to end the filibuster and cloture on any amendment.

Do I believe that this objection to the appointment of the conferees will kill ObamaCare? Yes, if the progressives or those 64 House Democrats who voted for the Stupak amendment do not roll over and play dead.

This monkey wrench may explain why the White House is putting out the word that it wants the health care bill to pass the House after the State of the Union, in February.

You all can decide whether the DeMint objection could be the kiss of death to ObamaCare, but I offer the following to convince you that it is:

If you recall, the Speaker repeatedly and consistently has publicly and privately stated: I can’t pass a health care bill without a public option.

The Speaker is now changing her tune and saying everything is fine, please ignore what I said weeks ago. Now, the Speaker is essentially saying that Senator Nelson, Senator Lieberman and the White House has convinced all her members that its OK to vote for a bill without a public option.

Really? That theory will now be put to the test — and the initial reactions of the left are not promising for the Speaker and the White House.

Jane Hamsher, progressive blogger and FireDogLake leader, has been for months laying the ground work for the left’s plan of action if and when the Democrats dropped the public option. She and her colleagues have been busy, busy, busy lining up No votes — having members of Congress sign the FireDogLake pledge to vote No if there is no public option (note the July, 2009 date) and then adding the signatories to their Health Care Heros Page on ActBlue (the liberal’s netroots fundraising page.)

In mid-November Hamsher predicted that her health care heros the left could stop any health bill in the House that did not include the public option:

“progressives only have to muster 1 more vote against the bill for every one that leadership picks up when they lose the public option. Can the progressives hold 11 votes against any bill without a public option? Even if Gao (the lone Republican who voted Yes in the House) stays in the “aye” column, I think they can do it.

“In reality, I think they only need to muster more like 5-8, because the GOP is going to go straight at everyone who is vulnerable between now and then, and will probably be able to recruit strong challengers to many in the post November election period, which is when that kind of thing starts to happen. Which should scare some of the freshmen, and probably some sophomores too, into the “no on anything” column. So the absolute best, most optimistic outlook for passing a bill in the House without a public option means that 13 or fewer progressive votes could stop it [emphasis added]. Well, here’s 16.”

There are those on the right that believe the left are paper tigers, who will roll over for their leadership and the White House. However, given that the progressives are now hearing that some of their arch-enemy Blue Dogs may vote yes on a unchanged Senate bill, and the polling on ObamaCare is getting lower and lower at every stage in proceeds through in the legislative process, it means now that the left really does have their opportunity to prove they have some political power, and can deliver – or not.

Here is what the Co-Chairwoman of the “Pro-Choice Caucus,” who is absent from the list of the FireDogLake health care hero’s list, said yesterday:

“Slaughter argued that while the House bill is far from perfect, the Senate bill’s exclusion of a public option, along with abortion funding restrictions and other measures, make the bill undeserving of a vote. Specifically, Slaughter said, the Senate bill would charge seniors higher premiums, would fail to nix health insurers’ antitrust exemption and would not go far enough in extending coverage to people in the U.S.

“Supporters of the weak Senate bill say ‘just pass it — any bill is better than no bill,’ ” Slaughter wrote. “I strongly disagree — a conference report is unlikely to sufficiently bridge the gap between these two very different bills.”

So, does the “Pro-Choice” Caucus agree to abortion restrictions?

And does the Hispanic Caucus agree to no health care benefits in the bill for illegal immigrants? Here’s Politico’s take on the issue on Tuesday:

“When the White House tried to pressure the House to change its immigration provisions to resemble the Senate bill, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus revolted and threatened to vote against the legislation. While they managed to secure a victory at the time, the fact that both the Senate leadership and White House support the prohibition makes it pretty likely that the Senate restrictions will remain in the final bill.”

Since there is an individual mandate, will the left succeed in getting an employer mandate?

Do the unions allow their main benefit — health care — to be taxed? Especially since they have been trading pay raises for health care coverage for almost a decade? Now, are they going to agree to those pay raises in the form of health benefits be taxed?

Will the 60 Democrats who signed the letter to the Speaker threatening to vote no if there is no public option, roll over and walk away from their threat? There is no public option in the Senate bill, no trigger, no co-op — no political fig leaf at all that the left can hide behind, none whatsoever. They either cave on their threat to vote No, or they force the public option back in and call Senator Lieberman’s, Senator Nelson’s and the White House bluff.

And, given the CBO’s double counting of savings error — and revised deficit projections — do the Blue Dogs ignore the deficit hit and vote yes?

Ultimately, if the progressives do not deliver the No votes to kill the Senate bill, then they will never be taken seriously on health care again. To wit, the left could not produce a single No vote in the Senate — and if they don’t kill the House bill, well then it is crystal clear that when it really counts, their members are mush — and run for the tall grass at the first sign of a real fight. The left’s political credibility is on the line.

Here is Hamsher’s take on their list of No votes, and whether they will stand strong or cut and run-away:

“Now I know where the strengths and weaknesses of the list are, and they do too. But you’re talking about a group of people who have been screwed over, disrespected, spat upon, forced to vote against everything they believe in over and over and over again “for the good of the team,” who have had to kneel down and get stomped on so their Blue Dog caucus breatheren can collect all the campaign cash and the district pork and the “wins” that will get them re-elected. On the war supplemental. On Waxman-Markey. And now on choice.

“I imagine that list of progressives who will vote “no” on any bill that doesn’t have a public option is somewhat larger and stronger after the Stupak debacle, because progressives who hail from strong Democratic districts once again look weak, ineffectual and unprincipled to their constituents after they voted for a bill that included an amendment that is certainly the worst attack on choice since before Roe v. Wade became law. They’re ready to take a stand.

“So unless someone tells me how Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler, Raul Grijalva, Lynn Woolsey, John Conyers and Keith Ellison suddenly abandon everything they’ve worked for and take one for the team just so they can be led around by the nose by J0e Leiberman to compensate for Harry Reid’s weak leadership and Rahm Emanuel’s decision to drive health care reform into a ditch, I’m feeling pretty good about the fact that no health care bill will pass without a public option. Period. Because the list of “no” votes in the House is already packed with Democratic members who think they’ll lose their seats if they vote for any health care bill. That list is pretty much uncrackable — and it only gets bigger and stronger from hereon out.”

We have heard this all before, only to have Senators Landrieu and Nelson literally bought off. Do the House members roll over and play dead on key issues that they care about — just to get a politically toxic ObamaCare bill?

There were 39 no votes in the House on their bill, and 40 No votes are needed to kill the bill. The conservatives will deliver the bulk of the no votes, will the progressives deliver any?

Will the House do as Senator Kerry demands? Senator Kerry says the House “will probably have to accept a compromise bill that reflects the Senate’s work.”

The whole thing comes down to whether the left rolls over and plays dead, or not.

COMMENTS

  • Leopard1996

    Was that the final vote for cloture, or was that the vote to pass the bill. I know it really doesn’t matter, but I would like to know if all 60 dems actually voted for the bill, or are there going to be a few scumbags who voted for cloture, then can vote against the bill

    • Trelaina
      • joayn

        needed a majority (50) to carry the vote. So, technically, some Dems could have voted no and it still would have passed. The next vote out of conference will need 60.

        • joayn
          • Leopard1996

            So no hypocrisy cover B.S. of I wanted to have an up or down vote and then vote against it.

            So this can hang on all of their necks now.

      • Leopard1996
  • Common_Cents
    • anotherindyfilmguy

      will only raise the price for the taxpayer when they get bribed with perks/payoffs and pork…

  • izoneguy

    They got their Messiah elected and still that is not good enough for them.

    • redneck_hippie

      version of purity and infighting. But only mildly in so far as the net effect is, as others pointed out, making the Obama crew appear too moderate.

      I’d like to see this continue indefinitely, as it will become more pronouned in the coming election. The entertainment value to watching the nutroots be kicked to the ditch is popcorn worthy. The biggest downside is Rahm and Obama are toasting each other merrily over the whole charade.

    • karenmartin

      I had come to the conclusion, after months of calling/emailing/faxing that my efforts at this point were moot, that constituent desires had zero impact on congress, both house and senate, on the dem side.

      Does this objection make it more effective once again to keep up the “I want you to hear me” efforts? even more than it makes me feel like I’m doing something (which helps save my sanity) does this put our voices back in the decision making process?

  • joayn
    • izoneguy

      How long can this cycle maintain itself?
      Could DeMint “object to the appointment of the conferees”
      everytime the Senate passes anything? And maybe he should
      “object to the appointment of the conferees” everytime anything in the Senate passes….

      I would rather see chaos and gridlock in D.C. over what we are handed now.

      • Scope

        in the house and Senate in 2006 and on forward, it was truly a do nothing Congress. They held everything up in conference, and proceeded to reame every post office and federal building in these United States, as they awaited the ascention of the walking talking empty suit ventriloquist. On those odd working days, they took federal control of as many millions of acres of land in declaring them national parks and etc. I miss those days. I hope and pray that the Republicans can do everything they have in their power to keep the Libs from doing another thing. I know it’s different when you don’t have the majorities, but, the Dems have already proven that they will do anything including changing Senate parlimenatrian rules. Maybe the Republicans should try taking some lessons, or at least listen to our own Erick Erickson and Dan Perrin. They have fought harder than the ballerinas strutting around in their tutus in Washington.

        • renny

          It’s fashionable to trash Reps. at every turn, but McConnelly and the Reps. have really hung together in these cloture votes and forced every Dem. to be present and vote to get their 60. It’s not as easy as it might seem, and altho’ I would like to see Collins and Snowe replaced, they have been there, also. I don’t know much about Sen. rules, but I have read there are ways the Reps. can just shut down the Sen. Such action would prob. give rise to the endless CBS stories about people missing their cruises around the world because their passports were held up (95, when Newt shut down the gov’t), but we would all be much better off if the DC reps. only met from Oct. to March., as they did when the capital was a malarial swamp (instead of the corruption swamp it is how). Much less time to meddle in our lives.

  • redneck_hippie

    on the magic 60 on final passage? I mean there must have been some real wire-worthy dealings to force 60. Is the impetus more than just to send a message to the House and others that they could do it?

    • Scope

      was when it was Reid’s turn to vote, the cameras panned on him, and, he grabbed the moment to at first say no, to much laughter,and, then entered his yea. Then everyone clapped because their saviour delivered.

  • eburke

    to do this instead of our Minority “Leader” (please tell me, Jim, that this is your first salvo in a campaign for the Minority Leadership)

    And, two – Dan, doesn’t this whole thing get complicated even further by the fact that there are two polar opposite constituencies which are not happy with the Senate bill? You’ve got the progressives po’d (as you so definitively laid out) but you’ve also go the Stupak coalition who have been adamant that they will not vote for the ‘restrictions’ package the Senate put on this steaming pile. I will assume that some of them will cave, being the spineless whores that they are, but Bart sounds pretty adamant about his stance. In fact, it sounds like the more he gets pressure from the WH, the more he digs in his heels.

    Am I missing something or does that gives us even a few more votes to draw from as “No” votes? (especially considering how aggressively the Right-to-Life groups have lit into Nelson)

    Would be interested in your expert analysis.

    • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

      ….after New Year, maybe we can make it happen officially

      • lurker9876

        Mitch let DeMint handle this.

        • http://vbushmills.blogtownhall.com/ vassar

          Mitch couldn’t have stopped him

    • SteveLA

      eburke

      I hope this is the beginning of the end of Mitch McConnell, he’s been as useless as mammary glands on a bull on ObamaCare and needs a long rest on a back bench.

      • eburke

        You and I haven’t always seen eye-to-eye on the whole “RINO vs Conservative discussions but like I said to smagar, if this whole Marxist, tyrannical health care abomination wasn’t *the* hill to die on, I don’t know what the h-e-double hockeysticks anyone who professes allegiance to the principles of the GOP would think *is* a hill to die on.

        Soldier on, Steve. And do us and the rest of the country a favor and get rid Babs “I’d have to be twice as smart as I am just to be as dumb as a box of rocks” Boxer the hell *out* of the U.S. Senate. I’d prefer DeVore but I’d settle for mbeckers dead white cat if I have to.

        He’d at least raise the collective IQ of the Senate several IQ points just by replacing Babs.

    • Dan Perrin

      but even more complicated:

      1) the alleged fiscal conservatives ought to freak at the CBO deficit revisions adding them to the NO pile;

      2) those hard core Stupak members who have given him their proxy on the abortion issue; and,

      3) the NO votes who are really pals of K Street and one or another industry that voted NO because of the public option and not on any principled opposition that influences them more than the industry objection.

      Add this, then, to the progressives’ concerns.

  • The_Gadfly

    DeMint just broke up the long pass on 3rd and long inside the 30 with 1:58 left in the 4th quarter and the Republicans up by 4. So the “Progressives” now have a choice between a field goal and trying the fake for the touchdown. The problem is, they already ran the fake on their last score, so the defense is going to be watching that as falling for it twice will really honk off the fans, and stopping it would be a major stuffage.

    So I expect the Progressives to take the three points and try an onside kick to get the ball back.

    Yes, they take what they have and hope to “improve” it later. Once it is passed, absent an electoral upset of larger proportions than even the most optimistic Republican is predicting, the Republicans can’t reverse it after it is law for much the same reasons Dems are having problems enacting it as law now.

  • bs

    That is one massively enormous “if”. So far, the Left has rolled over every single time. Why stop now?

    • PoliPundita

      it’s that they don’t devour their own, even if it costs them personal integrity or political advantage in the short run. Their moral prime directive is “win at all costs.”

      No public option? No worries. Pass the current bill, which will gut Medicare and drive up costs in the private market. Wait until the public is screeching at the increased costs, vilify insurance companies and–hey, presto!–pass not merely a government option but a single-payer system.

      Abortion language they don’t like? No problem. Pass it now, fix it later, preferably by attaching the fix to a bill they can excoriate Republicans for voting against.

      • Dan Perrin

        the political costs on health care have been just too high.

        So this notion that they can just pass a new law on the most controversial aspects of the health plan they could not pass now is — in my view — highly unlikely, and gets even more unlikely as the mid-term elections approach.

        • PoliPundita

          but only because it’s now an election year, and only among those who have to run. The liberal appetite for power and meddling is insatiable, and they are masters of incrementalism.

          I wasn’t implying that either of those scenarios would produce the results they want over night. They don’t have to get everything they want now to have everything they want later. All they need to do is pass enough legislation to build in a constituency that will protect it from ever being repealed. It needn’t even be a risky change: The no-denial-of-coverage bit would do it. They could easily sacrifice the public option and abortion coverage now, knowing that once they change the paradigm, there will be no rolling it back.

    • Dan Perrin

      http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/pachs-chrystal-ball/

      The really key is the second part of the IF — some of the left will not roll over and play dead, see two links above — the more definitive if is can they post a dozen NO votes, which combined with the existing NO votes, will kill the bill?

      They do not have to garner many votes — just about a dozen — 18 or 20 would be great.

  • bk

    Does the DeMint objection kill the appointment of conferees outright or can they vote or do something to override it?

    If they can’t have a formal conference, what will happen? I suspect they get around it by having staffers meeting and reporting back to their principals, giving in effect the same thing but making it much more time-consuming.

    Obviously they need to come up with something that can pass without more amendments, else they whole cycle starts over.

    Of course I suppose Pelosi could try to pass the Senate bill as is, but it seems like if she thought she could do that she would have kept them in town to have the vote right after the Senate did.

    • izoneguy

      And I think this is where Nancy’s hubris will bite her progressive arse……

      Once the House dems go back home they will get no rest.

      They really need a gut check to see if walking the plank for Dirty Harry is in their best interest.

      • audax

        …the Dems get no rest! Also the squish Republicans who need primary opposition….eat, eat, eat those that would be called our own….but aren’t.

    • Dan Perrin

      is to have him withdraw it.

      When Medical Savings Accounts were attached to the House version of HIPAA, Senator Kennedy objected to the appointment of the conferees to his own bill (then known as Kennedy-Kassabaum) for 124 days.

      There will be no conference, there is no 60 vote margin to overcome the objection — which is not a motion, it’s an objection.

  • proudmarinemom

    Those of us unschooled in poli sci could use a little clarification.

    A quick search produced this paper on the procedure of appointment of conferees:

    https://www.msu.edu/~pipc/confereeselection.pdf

    A very quick speed-read gives a good primer on “chamber dominance” in various scenarios, none of which are in play here (one party dominating both Chambers and WH). So, DeMint’s objection to the appointment of conferees results in . . .what exactly?

    Sorry to bore you, but I’m just a middle-age mom trying to follow along and learn.

    • herenow11

      So I’ll try again:

      Don’t feel alone, middle-aged mom. I’m a really smart guy. A genius, you might say (and quite humble as well). And this post has me utterly, thoroughly confused.

      I think the problem is that it takes for granted a couple of key bits: (1) when and how this “objection to conferees” took place; and (2) what an “objection to conferees” actually is.

      And so the befuddled among us — or at least you and me — are left wondering, “What is an ‘objection to conferees,’ and why does it (apparently) put so much weight on House progressives?”

      So don’t feel bad. And have a wonderful Christmas.

      • herenow11

        That should be “objection to appointment of conferees,” obviously.

        Even genius is vulnerable to eggnog.

        Um, OK, and also: Why does tabbing from the “comment title” box — with the goal of jumping into the “your thoughts” comment box — actually propel me back up to the top of the entire page? Anybody know what the deal is?

    • audax

      …but I believe that with DeMint objecting to a conference (that would meld the two bills together so that both houses of Congress could then vote on agreeing to accept the melded bill) that…the House will have to vote on the Senate bill AS IS…without changes.

      So that is why Stupak and his alleged Pro-Life caucus is importantant. The Senate version allows the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to pay for ABORTION, the House version does not SO THERE WILL BE NO CONFERENCE to iron out this difference. The House must accept the bill AS IS. IF they do vote on the bill as is…it goes back o the Senate where they have the 60 votes for FINAL PASSAGE of the bill WITH THE government funded abortions.

      With a conference, it is likely that the conferees from the House would insist on the NO Federal funding of abortion to be put back in and therefore you may not get the 60 votes in the Senate for final passage.

      Abortion is just ONE of the many difference between the bills that would be worked out in conference, so you see the difficulty either way of holding or not holding a conference, Either way it is 1.) hopefully the death knell of the Senate bill in the House or 2.) a fantastic time eater upper that takes this into the primary voting season.

      • audax

        He explains all this better than I ever could.

        • Dan Perrin

          the House Leadership must bring the Senate bill before the House,

          THEN AMEND it in a way that will get them the votes they need to pass it

          THEN PASS the AMENDED bill.

          This assumes, correctly, that the House cannot pass the Senate bill.

          The problem for the House leadership is finding the formula among all its members for what to put into the amendment that satisfies enough of the House without violating the deals made by the Senate.

          And provided the Left keeps pounding — my sense is that the bill gets killed.

          • audax

            Looking forward to the action in the New Year. Love to watch how this plays out to the detriment of the Dems!

  • Mayhem

    Is a risky gamble, but one we must take. It seems like it is an “all in” move that could pay off handily, or screw us over even more than we are now. If the House takes the bill even farther to the left, and the Senate passes it, then we lost the bet.

    DeMint’s objection will either lead to the bill dying or becoming more liberal.

    Here’s hoping the Hail Mary pass is a completion in the end zone.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      “DeMint?s objection will either lead to the bill dying or becoming more liberal.”

      No, I don’t think there is risk of it becoming much more liberal. OTOH, the 60 Senators who are now ‘on board’ may decide to stay on board even if the Senate bill shifts a bit.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      The whole point of objectiong to a conference is to make the House pass the Senate bill unmodified.

      No government option but Yes individual mandate is a lethal formula for the left. Well, for any person with a brain.

    • audax

      That is the question….?but with DeMint objecting to a conference (that would meld the two bills together so that both houses of Congress could then vote on agreeing to accept the melded bill) that?the House will have to vote on the Senate bill AS IS?without changes.

      So… that is why Stupak and his alleged Pro-Life caucus is importantant. The Senate version allows the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to pay for ABORTION, the House version does not SO THERE WILL BE NO CONFERENCE to iron out this difference. The House must accept the bill AS IS. IF they do vote on the bill as is?it goes back to the Senate where they have the 60 votes for FINAL PASSAGE of the bill WITH THE government funded abortions.

      With a conference, it is likely that the conferees from the House would insist on the NO Federal funding of abortion to be put back in the bill and therefore you may not get the 60 votes in the Senate for final passage, IF Ben Nelson means what he says…HA!

      Abortion is just ONE of the MANY difference between the Senate and the House versions of the bills that would need to be worked out in conference, so you see the difficulty either way of holding or not holding a conference,

      WITHOUT conference this is , hopefully, the death knell of the Senate version of the bill in the House, or
      WITH conference a fantastic time eater upper that takes this into the primary voting season.

      • bk

        If the House passes the bill as is, then it should go to Obama since both Houses passed the same bill, correct?

        Pelosi can pretty much squash amendments, which obviously could come from two opposite angles at this point:
        - Someone on the left will want to amend it to include some sort of public option. Will Pelosi let that come to a vote, or convince them to shut up and take it without it? She’d probably rather not force the lefties to have to vote against a public option else risk the whole bill.
        - Will Stupak demand a vote on his amendment and if so what happens? Nancy will be making the “greater good” argument to say don’t kill the bill over this one issue, but 25% of the Dems voted with him first time around and might not like getting stiffed. I suspect Cao and Stupak will vote against the bill as is, which would mean that every other defector over abortion has to be replaced by a blue dog flipping because there is no public option.

        It will be interesting to see what amendments Pelosi allows votes on. If she felt she could pass it as is, then the House would still be in session I bet.

        • Dan Perrin

          if the house passes the Senate bill its game over.

          But, my sense is they cannot, which is why Obama has put out the word that they are going to wait until after the State of the Union to attempt to pass ObamaCare.

          No doubt, he is going to use the State of the Union as a rallying cry to pass his bill — just like his last speech to a joint session of Congress.

          I think it will backfire — but hey, that’s just my view.

    • Dan Perrin

      would have meant a greater chance the bill would have passed and would have been more liberal if it passes, than this process.

  • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

    Ever since the Civill War the federal government has unconstitutionally usurped more and more of the states rights and privileges with nary a peep from the American public. I suppose that this has been allowed to pass because by and large the public has supported the goals of the federal government whether the goals such as Medicare or Social security were constitutional or not.
    In the last several decades Americans have become increasingly polarized and it is paralyzing our federal government because the federal government was never set up to manage what ought to be local and state issues. Reconciling the cultural differences between CA and AR for example is nigh impossible and results in the incomprehensible legislation we have today.
    I personally don?t care what the nuts in CA do as long it stays in CA. If they want gay marriage, marriage to cats and dogs, legalized marijuana, go for it. Just don?t try to impose that on we here in AR.
    Similarly, if those in CA, MA, WA, OR, et al desire a public health care option, again I say go for it and I will watch as they suffer the consequences.
    Where I draw the line is having a Congress dominated by Leftists impose on all of us the anti-American legislation favored by Blue states.
    There is already a movement to revive states rights and the 10th Amendment and several states are planning on passing legislation to nullify any health care plan passed by the Democrats and signed by Obama.

    Check out the 10th Amendment Center for current efforts: http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/12/21/health-care-nullification-things-have-just-gotten-underway/

    Here are the details of Arizona?s effort: http://www.azhealthcarefreedom.com/

    A lot of people have asked when I bring up nullification the issue of taxation. In conjunction with any nullification effort must be the concept of an escrow account for federal taxes. We all know that the federal government bribes and blackmails the states with the tax money of the states own residents. An escrow account would allow the state to collect all federal taxes, subtract what they would expect back from the fed and then submit the balance. To me this is the proper relationship between the federal and state governments. If things wsere perfect we?d pay higher state taxes than we do federal taxes so the states could take care of themselves but the federal government?s burdensome tax rates have made it difficult for states to raise taxes to take care of their own needs and are thus dependent upon the wold be princes in Congress.

    Here is actual draft legislation for an escrow account: http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/legislation/Tax-Escrow-Account.pdf

    So, let?s not put all of our eggs in the federal basket and instead work to elect real conservatives to state legislatures and governorships who will support putting the federal government back in its bottle.

    Additional articles on nullification: http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009/11/29/resist-dc-a-step-by-step-plan-for-freedom/

    http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/nullification/health-care/

    In the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 Thomas Jefferson wrote,

    ?co-States, recurring to their natural right?will concur in declaring these acts void, and of no force, and will each take measures of its own for providing that neither these acts, nor any others of the General Government not plainly and intentionally authorized by the Constitution, shalt be exercised within their respective territories.?

    Alexander Hamilton echoed this sentiment in Federalist #85 ?We may safely rely on the disposition of the state legislatures to erect barriers against the encroachments of the national authority.?

    The precedent and authority exist. Let?s exercise them.

    • Scope

      the other day. Someone posted a link to Judicial Watch I think where they talk about the nullification process being considered in several states already. You have gone further with including the escrow account system. I think it is most critical to work within the states now. I would love to see that be as much of a focus as fighting the idiots in Washngton. If the public is as outraged as I think they are, this move can be widespread throughout the country. This has to become the new hill to die on. I guess it’s easy to say though when you live in a state, that just elected conservatives to the top 3 positions. McBollingelli.

      • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

        Know what it is?

        • Scope

          I’ll be right back.

          • Scope

            and I don’t remember what diary it was posted in.

          • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

            Thanks for trying

    • Achance

      will force states to drop Medicare and I’m not sure they can, pay for all of it themselves, or come up with their own scheme to try to escape federal jurisdiction. There’s only a couple that could even think about paying for Medicare/Medicaid themselves. My state could but only by letting all of our programs in rural Alaska go back to being federal Indian programs and further compromising our sovereignty by sharing it with the equivalent of 200 sovereign nations in addition to already having to share it with a very large and disagreeable co-owner, the US.

      • http://charlemagne-the-hammer.blogspot.com/ DerKrieger

        The 10th Amendment resoultions are just for show. States such as Arizona that put legislation on the ballot to exempt themselves from any national health care mandates are law and there isn’t much the federal government can do about it.

        The 10th Amendment resolutions are non-binding resolutions proposed by legislators and voted upon only by legislators. Nullification resolutions are a mix of voter initiated amendments or initiatives and legislator initiated legislation that will have the force of law and are not just empthy threats.

        • Menlo

          Do you really think law enforcement officials, be they state or federal, will defy both explicit federal legislation and the orders of federal judges?

    • hickorystick

      The idea of making Nebraska’s additional Medicare costs being paid for by Washington State and the rest is unconstitutional and maddening. The Attorney General of my state is reviewing this. Our State Constitutional Founders were a much better lot than the politicians running the State now. They made the AG independant of the Governor and Legislature. They are Pit-Bulls (while acting as AG).

      • lurker9876

        of my state.

    • lurker9876

      NASA is in 35 states. So let’s say one of these 35 states decides to take the nullification option, will Obama continue to pay NASA and its contractors in that state considering nullification?

      • izoneguy

        It works both ways….what if Texas says shove it?
        No more manned sapce flight until the 49 other states decide
        to build a new control center. Oh wait – the 49 states left are broke
        because they tried to cover everyone’s health insurance.
        Those that won’t get covered in Texas will have to move over to Louisiana and mooch off of them…..

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      Only the impotent flailings of political losers.

      Conservatives should strive to avoid getting that association.

      • Achance

        Ain’t happenin’! I’m one of those unreconstructed types that still thinks that secession is perfectly legal, but I have a lot of ancestors planted in unmarked graves in Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania from the US proving that legal was irrelevant to the question posed.

        I think there might still be a few things I care enough about to die for, but the legality of nullification ain’t one of them.

        • Fla Mom

          It’s the side that would secede that has all the guns, for example. And most of the folks who are in the Armed Forces. And it’s not nullification that we’d be fighting about.

          Fla Mom

          • Achance

            How’d that turn out for the secessionists?

          • Fla Mom

            http://www.history.army.mil/books/AMH-V1/ch09.htm

            I don’t think it was true, actually:

            Of the 1,080 in the active officer corps, 286 resigned or were dismissed and entered the Confederate service. (Conversely, only 26 enlisted men are known to have violated their oaths.) West Point graduates on the active list numbered 824; of these, 184 were among the officers who turned their backs on the United States and offered their swords to the Confederacy….Davis, from the outset, knew his military men quite well and thoroughly understood the mechanics of building a fighting force. He had commanded a volunteer regiment in the Mexican War and was experienced at the national policy level due to his service as Secretary of War. Yet, as time passed, Davis would mismanage his government and its military affairs more and more…. As North and South lined up for battle, the preponderance of productive capacity, manpower, and agricultural potential clearly lay on the side of the North…. In sea power, railroads, material wealth, and industrial capacity to produce iron and munitions, the North was vastly superior to the South. This disparity became even more pronounced as the ever-tightening blockade gradually cut off the Confederacy from foreign imports. The North had more mules and horses, a logistical advantage of great importance since supplies had to be carried to the troops from rail and riverheads.

            The difference in manpower was also critical. According to the census of 1860, the population of the United States numbered 31,443,321. About 23 million of them were in the twenty-two Northern states and 9 million in the eleven states that later seceded. Of the latter total, 3.5 million were slaves. The size of the opposing armies would reflect this disparity. At one time or another about 2.1 million men would serve in the Northern armies, while 800,000?900,000 men would serve the South. Peak strength of the two forces would be about 1 million and 600,000, respectively…. Jefferson Davis hoped that the sympathy or even the intervention of European powers might more than compensate for the Confederacy?s lack of material resources. This hope, largely illusory from the start, became less and less likely of realization with the emancipation of the slaves, with every Union victory, and with the increasing effectiveness of the blockade.

          • Achance

            society. Its population was overwhelmingly rural and virtually all of its men could shoot and ride and most were accustomed to heavy work and outdoor life. As a matter of law in most Southern states, all able men of military age were in the militia and by the mid-’50s most militias were fairly organized and drilled regularly.

            To the extent that militias even continued to exist in The North, they were primarily social. The whole US Army was only about 16,000 men. In the first real battle, each side fielded over 30,000 men with very scant training and with officers who largely had political rather than military skills below the division level. The Confederate Army insisted on formal military training above the level of brigadier. The US Army was bedeviled by political generals, especially in the Army of the Potomac. The AOTP was simply abysmally led and even the effective U S Grant didn’t get his nickname of “Butcher” by killing Confederates. The Overland Campaign of ’64 covered approximately 125 miles from the Rapidan to the James Rivers and Grant planted 1000 men to the mile.

            In any event, the much more militarized Southern society was ultimately overwhelmed by the superior material resources of the North.

  • Bobcat51

    purchase an extra large box of Demints, the party needs them and dam quick about it ?

    Thank you Sen. DeMint for having the skill set and fortitude to stand up to the 60 bullies..!

  • ericathunderpaws

    I hope and pray DeMint’s actions result in the death of this health care monstrosity. If it doesn’t, we must never, ever let the public forget who is responsible for the misery that will follow. Beat the drums loudly.

    A graphic illustration:

    “Sucking the life out of U.S. healthcare”

    Democrats’ Dracula Death Panels
    http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2009/12/democrats-death-panel-dracula.html

  • redneck_hippie

    legislative circus blogosphere.

    Enjoy your peace and quiet and God bless you.

    “James Brown of “I Feel Good” fame is the “hardest working man in show business.”

    • $peciallist

      Hey @markos….this is your Waterloo….enjoy

      • cari

        Once again, thanks for keeping hope alive! God bless you and yours this holiday season.

        BTW, I’m working on a tea party protest WITH the moveon.org crowd in protest of Obamacare in the D/FW area. Maybe Obama is a uniter after all!

        • ericstenner
    • Achance

      Somewhere around here I have a copy of James Brown Live at the Apollo. I have a soft spot for that kind of music; played a lot of it when I was playing in a band in HS and college. People think of the ’60s as the time of psychedelia, but you’d stave to death playing that stuff. Even in a town the size of ATL, there was only enough support for a couple of clubs to have bands that played anything “electric.” If you wanted to make money playing music, you worked fraternity dances and played soul and “beach music.” You threw in some rock maybe once or twice a set and something electric maybe once or twice a night. They’d listen to you play Jimi Hendrix, but they wanted to dance and try to get lucky not stand around listening to guitar virtuosity. We played a lot a Florida State; oh, what a garden of earthly delights! Catch the eye of some hottie on a frat boy’s arm and sing “Unchained Melody” or Gene Pitney’s “I’m Gonna Be Strong” to her … gotta stop thinking about it now …

      • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

        The only thing of cultural value to ever come out of Detroit. And that was a generation ago.

        I used to listen to all that type of music back in the old days when Black Americans made good music, before Rap and Hip hop.

        Now I still listen to black music, but I like blues and reggae.

        • Achance

          If you know what the Pig and Whistle is, you were probably too close to music and are really, really dating yourself.

          • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

            “dated” myself since I got carpel tunnel.

          • Achance

            anyway. But, there’s some good memories!

        • herenow11

          Detroit’s gift to the world. Between the automobile and Motown, Detroit did more for humanity in one century than most cities do in a millennium. Unfortunately, Detroit has since managed to throw itself away.

          Motown is far from the only important music to come from Detroit, of course. The place has cranked out music stars like they grow on trees.

          Just FYI, though: James Brown is not a Motown act (and in many ways was the antithesis of the Motown ethos). Not clear from your comment if that’s what you were asserting. My apologies if not.

          • Achance

            but the genre was popularized by the Motown producers and labels. Actually, most of the music and the performers came from The South, but there was enough money in Black hands in Detroit that they could sucessfully promote the music. That’s a pretty good accomplishment in and of itself.

          • herenow11

            If you’re talking in VERY broad terms about the popularization of black music with mainstream (i.e., white) audiences, then yes, I suppose we can get away with saying that Motown and James Brown were part of the same “genre.”

            But, really, they weren’t. James Brown was funk — greasy, Southern, real-deal funk. Motown was something entirely different: It was pop music with more cosmopolitan R&B stylings.

            James Brown cut his teeth on the chitlin circuit. Berry Gordy cut his teeth in swanky jazz show bars.

            Motown and funk were two very different things, and were considered so — certainly by black audiences — in the 1960s. Brown wrote “I’m Black and I’m Proud” while Gordy was getting the Supremes into the Copa.

            Yes, though: The roots of both styles were Southern. Just like all American music of any note.

          • Achance
  • http://dancleary.typepad.com Dan Cleary

    Is there anything else out there on this beside this short Roll Call blurb? Or did the MSM go home for the holidays after this morning’s vote?

    http://www.rollcall.com/news/41873-1.html

    • Dan Perrin

      why the objection to the conference is irrelevant.

      But they take pages and pages to do it, and FireDogLake disagrees with them:

      http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/27/819181/-More-detail-on-whats-next-for-health-insurance-reform

      vs.

      http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/27/pachs-chrystal-ball/

      and more on those backing ObamaCare from FireDogLake’s perspective:

      http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/28/criticizing-the-president-on-health-care-is-naderite-and-hurts-the-progressive-agenda/

      The key part of the DailyKos rebuttal to the objection of the conferees is that they believe the House and Senate Leadership working informally can find an amendment that will pass both the House and the Senate — with no GOP support.

      Uh, huh.

  • clintonformccain

    The Dems are going to pass this thing, end of story. All the posturing is just individual congress critters staking out leverage to drive up the bidding. Each and every oen of them will get their asking price plus a little extra and will vote “yes”. We know how this play ends.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
      • http://impudent.blognation.us/blog kyle8

        but now I am feeling much more confident. I was under the impression that we would get a full blown socialist package, and card check, and cap and trade, and a bunch of other stuff.

        But now it looks like they have shot their wad and they are going to pay a price for it.

        Don’t get me wrong, it’s bad, real bad, but not quite the nightmare I was prepared for.

        • clowngirl

          Horrified when Obama won and had a de facto (now a literal) supermajority. But I was re-inspired by spirited resistance of my fellow Americans – particularly surrounding the tea party movement and when the House Republicans held the line on the Porkulus even after being wined and dined by a hypocritical Obama I started to realize Obama is not going to destroy our country. We are too strong and there are too many people here who love liberty and will fight to keep it and work to restore it.

          And even with 60 senators and an 81 seat advantage in theHouse – they’ve done damage: the Porkulus. Justice Sotomayor, Various bail outs, Major damage to our standing in the world – and it’s appalling – but nothing like they would like to be doing.

          I don’t think conservatism – actually, I won’t even say that – common sense is not that easy to defeat.It’s actually remarkable how fast America (as a majority) is coming to its senses. Before the election the majority of Americans thought the Federal government should be involved in providing healthcare- now, after they’ve learned more about it – many have change the view and the majority think they Federal government should stay out of it.

          It was disturbing how many Americans drank the Obama Koolaid but encouraging to see how quickly it’s wearing off. Too late to avert a lot of the damage – but in the end, I believe we will come back stronger. The electorate is waking up and becoming more involved and educated. In my – perhaps optimistic but I think not totally unfounded opinion – more of elected Republicans are remembering what they were elected for.

          Anyway, Merry Christmas!

          • Dan Perrin

            voters, in a way that we could never have convinced them of, and in a way that has been seared into their minds much like the Carter presidency.

            Stopping ObamaCare would be the best of both worlds, we educate the American public about the true nature of tax and spend leftists, and then we kill off the vehicle that did the educating, but the educating remains.

  • waltsfour

    One advantage to the Griffith switch is that it will almost certainly put his vote out of reach to any of Pelosi’s offers.

  • waltsfour

    Rep. Abercrombie’s resignation from Congress will also remove one D vote.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      Cao will HAVE to be made a “NO” vote, which is possible if he holds fast to his “Stupak or I’m a no” position.

      Cao is a serious Catholic, who will be a ‘no’ if this has taxpayer funded abortions.

      Good. That’s a 217-218 loss for Dems, unless they persuade NO votes. Not easy.

      Merry Christmas.

      • Dan Perrin

        now that they have finally reached the end point at which they cannot kick the issues of taxes, immigration, abortion and spending any further down the road.

  • lurker9876

    the NO votes don’t want any health care bill passed so that they can start over to do it right…and that is to work with the Republicans and seriously consider their proposals…consider repealing the McCarran-Ferguson Act to begin with.

    But Altmer indicated that many Blue Dogs will reconsider their votes from a No to Aye.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      The next bill will be as nasty as this one.

      If we defeat this one we defeat the next.

  • clowngirl

    Does anyone known/ is there even a reliable way of knowing how many of the “blue dogs” who voted against the bill the first time would have done so without Nancy’s permission? How much was genuine opposition and how much just political maneuvering?

    One of the blue dogs – whose name I don’t remember – who voted against it the first time was saying that he was now more comfortable with the bill now without the public option and that “a lot” of others would likely be as well.

    Surely Speaker Pelosi, not needing the votes, gave at least SOME of her blue dogs cover by allowing them to vote against the first House version of Obamacare. Some of those same blue dogs- if now needed – might think the removal of the public option affords them some cover and their switch could be portrayed as not an out and out flip flop.

    Still – if the Stupak coalition holds strong – it will still defeat the bill or force a return to the orginal language (a point well worth fighting for) Does anyone have a list handy of the 65 in that group?

    I was actually surprised Senate Democrats were so stubborn about abortion – knowing that the Stupak amendment was essential to the bill’s passage in the House and would likely flat out prevent the “ping-pong” option. A big mistake, and a display of their arrogance. (thinking the House would just have to swallow whatever they deigned to pass)

    I wonder if any of them would actually kill the bill over it the Stupak Amendment though. I guess only time will telll.

    • Dan Perrin

      vote on health care for a yes on the government takeover of the financial sector.

      He was “allowed to vote NO” for his yes on the other bill, and negotiated the trade with the leadership.

      • clowngirl

        committee assignments/ general favor? But none of that really matters if the “blue dog” in question isn’t re-elected.

        Do you think the Democrat in question would switch and vote yes if ordered to do so?

        • mbecker908

          money. Committee assignments are a side issue. Support for any piece of legislation the critter wants passed. Help from the DCCC come election in the form of assigned union thugs and money.

          Did I mention money?

          I don’t “think” Democrat House members will vote they way they are told, I KNOW it. It’s an immutable law of the universe. And if they lose an election because of it they’ll get a govy job or a job on K Street making five times what they were making. With no reporting requirement.

          Did I forget to mention money? Getting old is a bitch, your mind wanders.

          • mbecker908

            I don’t want to forget, they are really motivated by money.

  • audax

    That is the question?.?but with DeMint objecting to a conference (that would meld the two bills together so that both houses of Congress could then vote on agreeing to accept the melded bill) that?the House will have to vote on the Senate bill AS IS?without changes.

    So? that is why Stupak and his alleged Pro-Life caucus is importantant. The Senate version allows the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to pay for ABORTION, the House version does not SO THERE WILL BE NO CONFERENCE to iron out this difference. The House must accept the bill AS IS. IF they do vote on the bill as is?it goes back to the Senate where they have the 60 votes for FINAL PASSAGE of the bill WITH THE government funded abortions.

    With a conference, it is likely that the conferees from the House would insist on the NO Federal funding of abortion to be put back in the bill and therefore you may not get the 60 votes in the Senate for final passage, IF Ben Nelson means what he says?HA!

    Abortion is just ONE of the MANY difference between the Senate and the House versions of the bills that would need to be worked out in conference, so you see the difficulty either way of holding or not holding a conference,

    WITHOUT conference this is , hopefully, the death knell of the Senate version of the bill in the House, requiring everybody to start over if they do not agree wasting more time and running the issue into the primary season with a new bill no one wants.
    WITH conference a fantastic time eater upper that takes this into the primary voting season also runs the risk the tyranny lovers in House and Senate CAN work out their differnces.

    • audax

      …and he explains all this and more better than I ever could

  • jaydickb

    so they will do anything, ANYTHING, to get it.

    They face serious obstacles in the House, though, in trying to pass the Senate bill. Seems to me, there is more difficulty on the left than on the right. Difficulty on the right is with abortion, but many blue-dogs will switch with no public option in the bill.

    If Pelosi has to modify the Senate bill significantly to get it passed in the House, it may be finished.

    • bk

      Are his comments a signal that the House lefties who have been “demanding” a public option are throwing in the towel?

      If so, then will enough blue dogs switch over from no to yes because of no public option to offset any that switch from yes to no because of weaker abortion language?

      It seems a given that Stupak and Cao become no votes on the current Senate abortion language, so that means Nancy needs a blue dog to replace every pro-life vote she loses.

      • bk

         

  • sarge324

    there is going to be a fight over this bill.real americans dont want this,the democrates will have to put their values on the back burner like they always do to get this passed.so watch out america,beware of the democrates if the price is right it will pass.ask nelison and landeru they got theirs.

  • Oz

    However, the left has made most of their progress over the years through incrementalism and I don’t think healthcare will be much different.

    They didn’t vote against it when it contained Stupak so I don’t see them voting against it with the public option left out.

    • Dan Perrin

      just a small cluster.

      Like 7 percent of their caucus.

    • soljerblue

      “Do I believe that this objection to the appointment of the conferees will kill ObamaCare? Yes, if the progressives or those 64 House Democrats who voted for the Stupak amendment do not roll over and play dead.”

      Dan, I hope you’re right. All I’ve seen is so-called ‘hold-outs’ caving when the leadership ponied up enough threats or pork.

      Blue Dog and “moderate” Dems — full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
      (apologies to The Bard)

      • bk
        • bk