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Why a Mormon Will Have Trouble

      In a previous diary entry, I noted that both Mitt Romney and John Huntsman would have trouble winning the nomination for the Republican Party and an equally difficult time in a general election.  Some took note that I seemed to intimate that their religion more than any factor would be a likely factor to oppose a Mormon candidate.  With Romney, he has baggage, such as Romneycare in Massachusetts, while Huntsman was a member of the Obama Administration.  Personally, these factors, more than their religion, are greater factors to vote against them, although I would be more inclined to support Huntsman.  Regardless, I think many who took exception to any comments they misinterpreted are also those who live in some weird utopia where religion, age, race, and other demographic factors play no role in supporting candidates.  My experience has been that they do play a role despite what people say overtly.

     As to the subject at hand, practically every poll I have seen in the past indicates that a Mormon would have a difficult time garnering support.  Some of these polls go back to 2006, but I am quite confident that the attitudes, thoughts and beliefs of the electorate have not changed dramatically in the ensuing 5 years.  In 2006, a Fox News poll showed that 32% of voters were less likely to vote for a Mormon leaving everything else off the table.  Only three groups fared worse- Muslims, atheists, and Scientologists.  In 2007, a Pew Research poll found that 25% of voters were less likely to vote for a Mormon.  That is just those who answered the poll question honestly.  One can surmise that perhaps the percentage is even higher than 25%.  What is even more interesting is that among white Christian evangelicals who attend church weekly, the percentage of those stating they would be less likely to support a Mormon candidate rises to 41%.  Considering that a Republican candidate has to survive South Carolina on their way to the nomination, a candidate not only has to overcome his record as Governor of Massachusetts, but there will be those whispered doubts about his religion.

     Looking at more recent polls where Romney is considered, his approval rating among conservatives in Iowa is a mere 48%.  Compare that with Mike Huckabee at 66%.  In an even more conservative state like Georgia, where his religion will no doubt be an even bigger issue, his support amongst conservatives is not much better at 52%.  Traditional conservatives who just happen not to be Mormons like Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee fare better amongst conservatives in a conservative state at 78% and 83% respectively.

      It is when we move away from the Bible Belt states that Romney’s Mormonism plays less of a role, yet still weighs upon him.  For example, in Michigan, Romney receives a 66% favorable rating among conservatives compared to Huckabee’s 68%.  And in transitional states, like Florida that I do not consider the Bible Belt in the overall sense (the northern panhandle is, of course), Romney compares somewhat favorably with Gingrich but not with Huckabee.  Why?

      The answer is simple: people feel more comfortable voting for someone most like them.  If Mike Huckabee, Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney all stood on the same stage and all said the same thing with the same degree of charisma or whatever you like, Romney would probably come in third because he was least like the audience because of his religion.  Of course, there are other factors that offset, to a certain degree, the religion issue.  For example, Mike Huckabee raised taxes while Governor of Arkansas while Newt Gingrich is somewhat ethically challenged in his personal life.  It is difficult to determine the dynamics of these factors in ultimate voting behavior, but factors like race, gender, age and, yes, religion are better predictive determinants.

     I am not in any conceivable way saying this is correct.  But to deny that someone’s religion or race does not figure into one’s behavior and decision making in the voting booth is a naive view.  Not that long ago, people fretted about a politician from Massachusetts being President because he was Catholic- and that was a more mainstream religion than Mormonism.  In fact, several polls show that 40% of the population do not even know what Mormonism is or that it is even a Christian-based religion.  My guess is that an equal number of people view Mormonism as a religion as those who think its a cult.  Those are facts.  That is what must be overcome.  With the stakes incredibly higher in 2012 than they were in 2008, it is a bigger risk.

      It may very well turn out that Mitt Romney or even Huntsman win this horse race and oppose Obama in 2012.  If so, as a Republican, I would naturally support and vote for Romney despite his religion.  It may so happen that he is the best choice when the primary in my state rolls around.  I am not talking about the more enlightened voters who can overcome factors like religion and race when voting and I would surmise that there are more enlightened voters here on RedState than exist in the general population, or even among the primary voters.  But, I cannot deny reality and cold hard facts and anectdotal evidence.  Most people I know in mainstream religions have a neutral view of Mitt Romney and Mormonism, although they are cognizant of the fact.  Meanwhile, the evangelical people I know invariably note his religion first and foremost.

     The last thing I hope for is the “balkanization” of the Republican Party, especially if its based on religion.  I would suppose that if Romney were to win the nomination, most conservatives, be they evangelical or not, would vote for Romney since the Democratic choice is less palatable.  Unless they had a choice like “none of the above” or, even worse, a third party or independent candidate to rally around and siphon votes from Romney.  Then, I can almost guarantee that we lost the White House because of our candidate’s religion.

      Regardless, it is important that whoever the candidate is for the Republican Party, we, despite our philosophical or even religious differences, support the winner.  The alternative, another four years of an unfettered liberal Barack Obama, is unacceptable.

DANIELS FOR PRESIDENT- 2012

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COMMENTS

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Please.

    • Diogenes314

      Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a certain segment of the GOP and the electorate in general which will oppose a LDS candidate simply because of his religion. Of course said opponents will point to anything but Mormonism to justify their opposition, but the fact still stands.

      Personally I believe the percentage will be inconsequential, but that might be wishful thinking.

      That being said it will still be Romneycare that sinks Mitt and Huntsman isn’t even in the race.

      • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

        theocratic idiocy. They always turn into religious wars fought by people who actually think they know something about theology. They inevitably don’t.

        I don’t argue that there is a slice of folk who won’t vote for a Mormon for President. We don’t need to give them a platform.

        • Diogenes314

          I guess I missed that. I was just pointing out that the bias is there, even if it is marginal.

          As far as wannabe theologians, I’m more accustomed to to the anti-LDS types who are ‘opposed to’ a candidates position on this, against that aspect of his record in public-and keep their bias private.

          And for the record, whatever problem a small evangelical fringe might have with Mormons would be nothing compared to the viciousness of atheists in the general. But Mitt isn’t getting that far.

          • exitsfunnel

            Why would Atheists be any more vicious towards Mormons than they would be towards Christians? I am an Atheist and except to the extent that it affects their position on policy, I could care less what church a candidate attends.

          • exitsfunnel

            Having reread what I wrote above I realize that it implies that I don’t think that Mormons are Christians. That implication wasn’t intentional; just sloppy language on my part. I take no side on that debate and frankly have no real interest as the topic is essentially irrelevant to me.

          • Diogenes314

            Most atheists I know become more strident in their opposition to people of faith depending on the intensity of their target’s beliefs. They are okay with someone who goes to church once a week and forgets their religion the other six days-but someone who refers to their religion on a regular basis gives them the heebie-jeebies.

            Likewise, the more a particular religion or sect influences it’s members day to day lives, the more hostile they are. Not a condemnation of all atheists, just a trend I’ve noticed. No personal offense was intended.

    • David123

      is that one of the likely 2012 contenders attended a church for 20 years where they cursed the United States of America.

      This contender will not get the Republican nominbation, but he’ll probably get the Democratic nomination.

    • Justin Spagnolo (standardcandle)

      Long time redstater… even longer time Mormon… :)

      Let me just say, I don’t take any personal offense to DaveNJ1′s diary… There indeed may be some mitigated truth to his anecdotal evidence… but I don’t think that is going to stop Romney or Huntsman, or any other Mormon candidate to throw in the towel.

      but for the sake of commenting because I think it may assist others… as I have read their comments.

      1. My initial reaction is to call out the diarist for some cognitive dissonance:

      “It may very well turn out that Mitt Romney or even Huntsman win this horse race and oppose Obama in 2012. If so, as a Republican, I would naturally support and vote for Romney despite his religion.” emphasis mine.

      So for me… I would hop that it had read… “…despite his position on obamacare/romneycare…” (or any other host of issues that one could take issue with). Instead the writer shows in spite of his best efforts to suggest other Christians (but not him*) may not vote for Romney/Huntsman or any other mormon based on their religion. I think this may be a fruedian slip… in other words, I take Dave’s word… but it may suggest that if he had a choice to vote for any of the above which are not mormon from a pragmatic standpoint, he would do so, this doesn’t bother me, but in my view he should just say it, rather than throw his fellow southern Christians under the bus as if they are “less enlightened” as he is… living in Oklahoma among southern Christians gives me a very different impression than he paints… but who am I to provide anecdotal evidence in the contrary to his… seems a bit ridiculous in either case. :)

      As such, since the author can’t cite any poll, nor can he name individuals or organizations that have come right out and said “we won’t support a mormon presidency”… then as Neil suggests, its all just a moot point, and a “another good reason to back Mitch Daniels is that he’s not a Mormon” type of diary… And Neil’s analysis is sufficient for me to end it “what did you mean” type of inquiries.

      2. This type of diary can spurn Theological debate… and yes that really has no place here at this site. I agree with your down-thread comments about not making a platform for this type of discussion.

      3. Points of order for clarification:
      3.a. “Most Aethiests”… is just as offensive to me as any other generally sweeping stereotyping statement that is made off the cuff… I used to be an Atheist, now I’m a Mormon… imagine that. When I was an Atheist… I didn’t have an issue voting for any candidate due to their religious affiliation… but since the statement was qualified by suggesting we are not the norm due to the fact that we don’t fit the stereotype, one might take into consideration the utter uselessness of making generalized sweeping stereotypes to castigate any individual or group by defining attributes that remain undefined.
      3.b. As a “mormon” I attend The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints… not the “mormon church”.

      In conclusion… this is all much ado about nothing.

      In consequence, I hope some faulty assumptions were challenged and new open perspectives were gained regarding a rather arbitrary argument.

      In retrospect, I’m a little nauseous from all the echo chamber banter about… why candidate x is not qualified, while one is rooting for candidate y type diaries… and these type of diaries on Redstate extend much further than a candidate’s personal theological beliefs (both individual, and systemic to church doctrine)… and for this reason alone… agree with your original assessment… this diary is indeed “crap”.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Why am I not surprised to see yet another Mormon diary, only to scan to the bottom and see some cheering for another candidate.

    Yawn.

    Double yawn to the lack of any supporting documentation for any of the claims, including alleged polls.

    This is a content-free pitch for Mitch Daniels.

    • Diogenes314

      I doubt he would either. There are legitimate reasons to like and to oppose Daniels-the fact that one of his supporters is a simpleton shouldn’t be one of them.

  • davenj1

    The 2006 poll was by Fox news and the 2007 poll by CBS news. Google it. The favorability ratings are from state reports in 2011 from Public Policy Polling. The ending statement has become and will remain my closing line until Mitch Daniels decides not to run, or until the voters of the Republicaan Party opt for another nominee. My support for anybody in particular does not affect the objective facts.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      If you can’t show it, then clearly it’s not really worth your time to find it, so I’m back to my original point: Yawn.

      You’re not doing your guy any favors with garbage diaries like this, you know.

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      The subject of this diary is crap. That’s C.R.A.P.

      Wanna have this discussion go to a theological website. While Romney’s religion may be a turn off for a very small slice of people, it’s got no business here.

      These things devolve in religious arguments by people who, by and large, are theologically ignorant (on both sides) and add absolutely nothing to the rational discussion of Romney’s qualifications to be President.

      And just so I’m clear, I have major problems with Romney’s qualifications and I have major theological problems with LDS, and I happen to know more than a thing or two about theology. That said, Romney’s religion would not keep me from voting for him in the general election (or the primary for that matter, by the time the AZ primary rolled around in 08 he was the only anti-McCain left and I voted for him).

      And to repeat, the subject matter of this diary is flat out sewage.

      • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

        How can you doubt his extensive research? He “guesses” people view it as a cult. That’s top-notch reporting there.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          simply drives home the reason you’re a Moderator and I’m just part of the pond scum. Thanks for pointing that out, my ego was on a runaway and you’ve brought me back to reality. Thanks. And Mrs908 thanks you too.

          And a Happy Easter to you out there in the land of Spring Spheres. (And for the record, I know you don’t live in Seattle, but to those of us in FlyoverCountry, LeftCoast is LeftCoast :-) )

  • aesthete

    As far as I can tell, it’s just a sharp stick to poke Romney, and possibly Mormons in general, with. The extrapolations made from the polls shown would get you kicked out of a first-level statistics course. No attempt is made in this diary to state in exactly how this would present a problem for Romney/the Republican party (i.e., depressed/ turnout, lower donations, etc), or to show how Romney’s Mormonism could have political positives — a connection to a tightly-knit and conservative niche in society could potentially be useful. The specter of “balkanization” of the Republican party and bringing up the (ultimately overdone) fears that a Catholic couldn’t win are purely non-sequitur.

    With its analysis and depth, this OP reads like a story in Newsweek. That is not a compliment, and I agree with ‘becker that if diarists are not more discreet about how they approach matters of religion and politics where they intersect, management should intercede before RS becomes a site for half-baked arguments about theology.

  • silentcal2012

    The intentions of these types of diaries, no matter how well disguised, is obvious. This is how you spend your Easter afternoon?

    Most Mormons I know are too classy and devout to spend the Holiest of Days religious fear-mongering and pandering to bigoted voters.

  • davenj1

    To clear up something: if Mitt Romney were the GOP nominee, I would vote for him regardless of his religion. I, like most readers here, hopefully don’t care about a man or woman’s religion or race when pulling the lever in the voting booth. (2) I am noting that there ARE people who would do exactly that and HAVE done exactly that and WILL do exactly that. (3) I am not a booster for Mitch Daniels. There is nothing in this entry to suggest that I have an animus towards Mormons. (4) “fail a statistics course…” I am a statistician and poll analyst and have been for 20 years. Extrapolate what you want from the stats, but I see religious conservatives voting against Romney in the primaries. As for Daniels, the purpose of the diary is not to help or hinder or anything else, but point out a demographic fact of political life. If people wish to attribute negative connotations towards that or me, then your own ignorance is profoundly shown.

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      The subject matter of this piece of crap doesn’t belong at Redstate.

      You couldn’t make a theological argument about this if your life depended on it.

      Nobody cares what you think about Mitch Daniels, but put his name on the bottom of a tub of sewage and you don’t make a good impression for him.

      Drop it. If you want have this discussion, go find a theological forum.

  • davenj1

    Please explain to me how voting behavior is related to a theological forum? Please explain to me how voter’s perceptions is more worthy of a theological forum? Is this not a conservative, Republican website dedicated to the discussion of politics? Are you asserting that religion, race, gender, etc. have no effect on voting behavior? I’ll give you it shouldn’t, but is that the reality? Although you may consider this “sewage,” then you have your head up the source of your sewage.

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      I’m not explaining anything to you. You haven’t earned it.

      Disscussions like this have no business on a political forum. If you can’t understand that you’re simply too stupid to deal with.

      Franz Rule.

  • davenj1

    thanks for timely response, despite the typos. Once again, if you cannot explain to me how voter behavior and voter perceptions are somehow not related to a political website I am left with the conclusion that there is no explanation- hence, it is appropriate discussion matter- or that a failure to respond is predicated upon abject ignorance on your part. Once again, I challenge you to explain how voter behavior and perceptions do not relate to politics?

  • steve010

    if I was you which I’m not. I’ve decided not to analyze any of the (R) candidates because I just open myself up to ad hominem attacks by other prognosticators. I have decided to wait until the candidate who is nominated is nominated then maybe I’ll do some commenting. And if ***** is a Mormon, then I’m a Martian. How many times has the guy been divorced, which is forbidden by mormonism?

  • Joshua Persons

    “The answer is simple: people feel more comfortable voting for someone most like them.”

    You throw out poll numbers showing Romney fares badly against Huckabee and Gingrich in certain states. Fine, I’m sure that’s true. But then you conclude it’s because of Romney’s religion with no evidence. As a self-described “statistician and poll analyst”, what analysis and what statistics have led you to Mormonism as the sole reason for this difficulty? What led you to completely discount other factors such as Romney’s northeastern roots, or Romneycare, or perhaps a general perception that Romney is less conservative than Gingrich and Huckabee? Wouldn’t that track better with Romney’s doing badly in conservative states than the unstated assumption that conservatives are bigots?

    Using Michigan as a neutral state to show Romney’s support in regions outside the Bible Belt shows your utter lack of analysis. Mitt was born in Michigan and his father was governor of the state.

    To be clear: Romney, Gingrich, and Huckabee are all far down on my list of candidates. Also, I believe Mormonism’s impact on the election to be a valid area of analysis. My problem with this article is that you’re trying to pass yourself off as a polling expert when you’re obviously in way over your head.

  • Ann_W

    Even though you are saying, “I’m personally not bigoted, but would like to point out that many others are.” At the same time you are opining that it is not worth it for R’s to support any Mormons because they would not get enough support because of those other less enlightened people. You will understand why that is still not appropriate if you imagine that argument made against black, Jewish, women, etc. candidates.

  • davenj1

    @joshuapersons: if your theory about geographical reasons for the differences were true, one would see Huckabee’s numbers (approval ratings) decreasing as he moved out of his comfort zone area. Yet, he does not- he is fairly consistently above the 60% mark among those describing themselves as conservative whether in the Bible Belt or in the upper midwest. Perhaps, Michigan was a bad example. Let’s move it to Pennsylvania and Romney’s numbers are comparable to those in Michigan. Sorry, but taken in its totality not only state by state, but in national polls, religion is the mos likely factor. Doesn’t make it right…

    • Joshua Persons

      I’m pointing out the very possible alternative hypotheses which you completely neglected to address in your post. There’s no way that “Voters in Georgia and Iowa like Huckabee and Gingrich more than Romney” directly implies “Romney’s Mormonism is hurting him”. You found some numbers which aren’t friendly to Romney, and then you tried tying them to your pet theory without making any logical connection whatsoever. You’re relying on a LOT of unstated assumptions, at least one of which (“conservatives are religious bigots”) is reprehensible.

    • Joshua Persons