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In the Pipeline: Gay Marriage

The purpose of this entry is not necessarily to get into the morality of gay marriage or homosexuality. As people are aware, due to a decision of the California courts, gay marriage was “approved” in California. However, opponents soon got Proposition 8 on the ballot and it passed which essentially overruled the courts and negated gay marriage. However, gay activists in the state then challenged the constitutionality of the referendum and the courts negated its results. Pending appeals, however, gay marriage is still not a reality in California.

I do not believe this case will ever see the light of day before the US Supreme Court. In 1972, the Court rejected a similar case out of Minnesota involving alleged disparate impacts against a same-sex couple. The reason was that it lacked a “substantial federal question.” Since the case came to the Court on mandatory appeal, the dismissal was based on the merits. In effect, it leaves the definition of marriage to the states until such time the Court declares that the definition of marriage will be decided otherwise. Regardless, as it stands now, the definition of marriage being defined by the states is the law of the land. Troubling in all this is the fact that the California Attorney General along with the US Attorney General (in the case of DOMA) have decided not to defend democratically decided ballot initiatives or legislative decisions out of personal, not legal, beliefs. In essence, both offices are bucking the proven will of the people. DOMA passed 85-14 in the Senate and 342-67 in the House, rather overwhelming majorities proving the will of the people. If sensibilities, attitudes, and views regarding gay marriage, or marriage in general, has changed so dramatically since 1996, then the best solution is to debate and then act upon changes to DOMA or state laws. That is NOT what happened and, it can be argued, is proof that activist courts are foisting a liberal policy upon the public.

Also, in his decision, Judge Walker in California, who originally overruled Proposition 8, acknowledged that the new definition he was affording marriage was not rooted in our history and traditions. Using his own words, he comes to an opposite conclusion. He should have ruled that since gay marriage is not rooted in our history and traditions, it should not be afforded special constitutional protections. Because same-sex marriage was never a reality, there is no fundamental right to marriage other than for the biological one that has been traditionally recognized, namely procreation.

Unlike the campaign finance reform law case coming out of Montana or the Fisher affirmative action case out of Texas, it would be very surprising if the Court accepted the Proposition 8 case out of California. The key here is Justice Ginsburg and some of her recent comments regarding an unrelated, but equally controversial case- Roe v. Wade. She noted, accurately, that the Court’s decision in 1972 actually ushered in the tenacity of the pro-life movement not as a reaction against abortion necessarily, but it gave the conservatives a powerful argument against judicial activism. She noted that the number of states with criminal sanctions against abortion were dwindling every year by the time Roe was decided. Left out of the conversation was the fact that the Court had to reach at constitutional straws to carve out an amorphous right to privacy which led to talk about “penumbras” and such. Likewise with gay marriage, the Court may be wading into a similarly highly charged subject that will create a backlash against the Court. She correctly noted that the definition of marriage is changing state by state on a piecemeal basis and that the perhaps the best route for gay activists is to proceed at the state level, much like pro-choice activists were succeeding at the state level leading up to 1972. She, like other members of the Court, are not immune to the polls that show a majority of Americans are now not against the concept of gay marriage, or at least civil unions. The best solution would be to make the case through state legislatures since laws, not judicial dictates, hold greater weight. Should the Court wade into this area, through the courts, a de facto national marriage law would evolve, much like a national abortion law evolved after Roe.

There are side issues involved with Proposition 8. First, since the state, trough their Attorney General, refuses to defend the proposition, there is the question of standing. In effect, who represents the state’s people in this case? The decision by the Attorney General not to defend the law in court creates a subtle legal conundrum when it comes to the Supreme Court. Secondly, there is the issue of federalism and state’s rights. Obviously, the Supreme Court can wade into this area when a state law violates the Constitution. For example, a state cannot pass a law which permits slavery as it would clearly run afoul of the 13th Amendment. Likewise, but differently, should the Court enter an area that has been the exclusive province of the states- the definition of marriage and, more broadly, domestic relations?

In the past, I have written on these and other pages about gay marriage. I have researched the subject and developed a “so what” attitude. Gay marriage does not affect me personally. I have no financial stake in it; it does not affect my wallet. It may offend my sensibilities, but I find no broad societal harm besides an offense against sensibilities. I find it strange that among opposite-sex partners, marriages are falling apart as less and less people treat it in high regard yet gays are fighting for that right to marry. Anything that would decrease the definitely proven sexual promiscuity of gays, and the spread of sexually transmitted disease, should be considered. Additionally, I know gay couples who have adopted children and some heterosexual couples could use them as an example of how to correctly raise children in a loving, caring and productive home. Regardless, it is up to the elected officials or the people directly through referendum to place the stamp of approval on same-sex marriage. And since marriage has traditionally been the exclusive province of the states, changes need to occur exclusively there. The Equal Protection arguments are weakened by the very decision of Judge Walker and by the words of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals when they admitted that a “right” to same sex marriage is not rooted in our history and traditions and, thus, not necessarily worthy of constitutional protection under the Equal Protection clause.

One final thought: many in the gay activist community equate this battle with civil rights and, specifically, the Court’s decision in Loving vs. Virginia which ruled that bans on interracial marriages were unconstitutional. The difference is that Loving involved heterosexual marriage where there is a history and tradition and, therefore, constitutional issues at stake. Using Loving, they stand on shaky constitutional ground. Instead, they need to prove, on a state by state basis, their rationale for same-sex marriage and let the legislative chips fall where they may.

COMMENTS

  • zachv

    When Reinhardt handed down his ruling, I had much of the same thinking with respect to the Supreme Court. Judge Reinhardt is a judicial liberal, but he’s also a rational actor and knows his rulings will be subject to review by the Supremes. I felt Reinhardt knew the Court would presumably rule against him and thus he chose to rule in the least affirmative as possible as to minimize the risk of being overturned.

    Everyone here knows that I’m explicitly (and annoyingly) in favor of same-sex marriage, but I am just as explicit (and annoying to the LGBT crowd) in opposing the push through the liberal courts. Same-sex marriage rulings produce backlash, don’t reflect the opinions of the public and will only further entrench same-sex marriage opponents by focusing on judicial fiats instead of arguing on the merits of SSM. The goal ought to be to win people’s hearts and minds; not push it down their throats so they may not speak.

    You also highlight an issue that I’ve become more aware of as well — AGs simply refusing to do their job. Not only has CA has demonstrated this both with Prop 8 but also with a resent ruling against DOMA (Google: “Karen Golinski”, but the Obama administration as well with the Justice Department refusing to defend numerous DADT related issues. I’m not too well versed on the refusal by state officials to defend laws, but in my current state,it’s offensive even though did/do not even support DADT/DOMA.

    Also, I’d challenge you on the ‘gays are promiscuous’ line of thinking because it’s a common stereotype, but I don’t want to get into a battle over it, but this ‘unofficial’ study is interesting: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/gay-sex-vs-straight-sex/ –> Dating website that performs studies on it’s users; median reported sexual partners; SMen 6, SWo 6, GMen 6, GWo 6. There’s a few neat graphs too!

    • aesthete

      Lots of state AGs and Govs also just flat-out refuse to defend other ballot measures that have been ratified by the voters. Here in AZ, our tremendously “brave” and “principled” Governor, Jan Brewer, has instructed her AG not to defend the medical marijuana ballot measure that has passed twice in AZ (once in the 90s, and also in 2010), and been foiled by either the courts or the legislature. Lots of state AGs (especially in the NW or places like Illinois) just flat out refuse to prosecute police departments that volitionally refuse to enforce laws passed by ballot measure — immigration laws being the go-to example that I can think of, but others come to mind, as well). The legislature and the courts overriding ballot initiatives of all sorts is and has been a real problem for some time, and I’m not sure what can be done about it.

      • davenj1

        which has a medical marijuana law passed, Governor Christie cannot actually enact it because he cannot get a straight answer from Herr Holder’s Justice Department which would guarantee that the DEA will not swoop in a prosecute licensed vendors. At current count, he has attempted to get an answer three times and has not received those guarantees. And for that, incidentally, we can thank Justice Scalia.

        • aesthete

          He does not agree with his state’s law, and it took him a while — but he did ultimately back the people’s decision, and committed the state’s legal resources to fighting for their laws. His reason for foot-dragging is also plausible, IMO — and the only thing at this point that is keeping NJ from enacting its democratically-determined law into action is the federal government’s un-Constitutional interference.

          In contrast, Brewer has flat out refused to dedicate legal resources to defending the MJ law in court, after a long period of obfuscation and dissembling about finding out whether it was legal from a federal government’s POV (something that she rightly wasn’t concerned about in our immigration debate), bla bla bla. Christie is doing the right thing, and acting as any governor should. We don’t get federalism, rule of law, and republican government if states refuse to uphold their law, and let themselves get cowed by agitators, activist judges, or the federal government. This is an issue that needs more play, IMO.

  • ragstoriches

    “Gay marriage does not affect me personally. I have no financial stake in it; it does not affect my wallet. It may offend my sensibilities, but I find no broad societal harm besides an offense against sensibilities.”

    Solomon said “He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.”

    In other vernacular we call this the law of unintended consequences. Normalizing what is abnormal leads to it being an acceptable choice. Neither from a natural law or religious point of view does such partnerships offer any substantive good to society, but ultimately does much harm to those who contract disease and fail to propagate the species.

    It may not impact you, but society? Society in general cannot withstand such a twisting of nature for personal desire.

    • cheetah2

      First of all as the “right” to gay marriage is established it legitimizes the notion that sexual deviancy is a protected class like ethnicity. This will lead to more and more abuse of religious freedom, since those who believe the Bible believe that this lifestyle choice is morally wrong and we must refuse to have anything to do with it. Christian doctors have already been punished for declining to perform fertility procedures on lesbian women. E Harmony was punished for not catering to homosexuals. Then there are the Charitable organizations being eliminated from the field of adoption services because they refuse to place children with homosexual couples. This will only get worse.
      Our new gay marriage law in Washington State has a conscience clause for churches and clergy protecting them from having to perform gay marriages. I predict the day will come when these exceptions will be found unconstitutional because they discriminate based on sexual orientation.
      If the laws hurt some they will hurt all of us one day. Those being punished now for religious beliefs are just the canary in the coal mine.

    • texasref

      Whether gay marriage is a substantive good to society or not is irrelevant (for the record, it is always good when a government treats all of its citizens equally and gives everyone equal protection under the law, and it is better for people to have the ability to enter formal, committing act of marriage than not, but I digress).

      It is not for the government to be imposing, as you say, a “religious point of view.” I respect your religious point of view, but you should not expect the government to endorse it as a rationale for depriving me of equal marriage rights.

      It is pretty one-sided of you to imply that two folks who want to join together in a commitment for life are more likely to contract disease than any other two folks simply by virtue of being differently oriented.

      As for “personal desire,” there is nothing wrong with having personal desire. It goes hand in hand with love. And the world could use a lot more love.

  • davenj1

    I did not want to get into the morality of homosexuality in general. However, as I said when researching the whole issue, I found very little evidence for gay marriage and very little evidence against gay marriage. The only things against gay marriage were religious in nature and Biblical quotes, like here. Leaving the Bible and religion out of the argument, give me one of your best reasons to oppose gay marriage. Bottom line: I don’t really care if Joe and Johnny marry; it does not affect me and I suggest YOU take the blinders off…

    • Ann_W

      However, information that would be broadly reported if it were about heterosexual couples is not reported because homosexuals are protected by the media.

      Examples: Did you know that domestic violence to partners of same sex partnerships is MUCH higher than domestic violence to man-women partnerships? They disguise this by saying repeatedly that ss violence is the same as violence to heterosexual women. This sounds like they are saying the levels are the same, but when you consider that d. violence for hetero women is either 5 or 6 times more than for hetero men then you average that for all the partners of ss relationships you get 200-250% higher domestic violence for individual partners in ss relationships.

      Another topic that is never covered in this discussion is the MUCH higher rate of promiscuity of male-male (didn’t uncover any info about female-female) relationships. No one talks about this but something like 50% of male male relationships have been cheated w/in 1 yr. At five years effectively none of the relationships are monogomous. You may think hetero marriages are in disarray, they are not anywhere near this rate.

      Such active and varied sex lives bring risk of abuse to children, as does the higher rates of domestic violence. But since this info is blacked out by the media we cannot consider these issues when the same sex marriage issue (with it’s implications for children.) And since these issues are being covered up– who knows what else is?

      A few weeks ago I was reading my local newspaper. The headline mentioned that some adopted children were being taken away from a couple because of sexual abuse. After reaching the second page of the article and much information it finally mentioned the couple’s names. It was two male names. I realized that it was a gay couple, a fact that was never mentioned except by figuring it out from the two male names and references to “he” for both of them. They had adopted 8 boys and were abusing many of them. But since they are so averse to mentioning this– do we know how common this is?

      A few years ago I heard a radio news story of a young teenage boy who, according to the news story, “died during sexplay gone wrong.” As I read other info later, it turned out that it was a young man who had been kidnapped sexually abused and killed by two gay adult males. That’s the kind of reporting you get when a group is actively protected by journalism.

      So when you believe everything that you hear, realize that you are not hearing everything.

      • texasref

        when you trot out child sexual abuse stories to justify your position on the entirely unrelated issue of equality in marriage rights.

        It’s one step removed from the kind of hyperbole that Godwin’s law is all about.

        Thanks, Ann. Thanks a lot for equating gay men with sex offenders. I really, really, really appreciate it.

        • Ann_W

          I mentioned facts from govt sponsored studies that have been buried and not mentioned. If those facts had been about heterosexual couples it would have been reported, as they always do about the demise of traditional marriage. So they ignore the domestic violence and promiscuity issues around gay couples even though it is a central part of the gay experience.

          If people like davenj1 are going around saying that there is no harm in gay marriage, and I think there are harms that aren’t being publicized, I’m going to say it.

          Then, to illustrate the media bias I mentioned two media stories that I personally had run into that were handled in a deceptive way. It was just examples to show that we need to dig deeper on this issue because the complete truth is not put out there by the media. What is wrong with that assertion?

          • westcoastpatriette

            I concur completely with both of you and really appreciated the link Melody.

            This diary reminded me of just how far the liberals have pushed the envelope while aggressively stifling — if not crushing — any dissenting voices. They operate in lock-step with radical liberals, make up reality as they want others to see it, and become nearly hysterical when exposed or when anyone tries to point out the fallacies in their weak arguments.

            I have less patience with them than both of you have shown and I admire your tenacity in fighting back with truth. Thanks, again.

          • Ann_W

            On this issue the media shuts down opposing voices and supresses information. Isn’t that the opposite of the role of journalists are supposed to take? It’s kind of hard to fault the people who have been told (with no evidence) over and over and over that it’s genetic and that there are no other valid viewpoints.

            It just makes me think of Isaiah 5:20 and 2 Tim. 3:7.

      • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

        that supports part of your comments, particularly the domestic violence portion. Just thought you might find it interesting.

        here

        • Ann_W

          Thanks!

    • cheetah2

      Early in my career I witnessed first hand the harm homosexual men do their own bodies and the horrific diseases which are spread by their activities. Male homosexuality is a sexual addiction with multiple partners even in the same night being the norm. I worked in a cancer ward for a time and saw the very worst effects that AIDS has because it greatly increases the risk of contracting cancer- a healthy immune system protects against cancer. Virtually all the patients I saw with AIDS related cancer were homosexual men.
      My experiences might be called anecdotal, but I am certain that honestly conducted studies are in line with what I observed.
      Homosexuality is a miserable way to live. No one can ever convince me otherwise. I have seen too much that most people are able to ignore because they are only exposed to the prettified, sanitized, and idealized view of homosexuality which is portrayed to them by the media.

      • zachv

        Do you know what’s terribly offensive to me? How it’s wrong to call a woman a slut, whereas you two women believe it’s perfectly alright to declare the same of gay men, and then double down with every other prejudice out there.

        I mean, this is ridiculous! Gay men are promiscuous? Gays are physically and sexually abusive, and disease ridden? What is this, the 19 – flippin’ – 50s? There’s absolutely nothing the differentiates me from another man or woman on this planet apart from the gender I’m attracted to. We ask of each other to judge ourselves on our merits, and not upon prejudices and intolerance as you two have done.

        And, no, I’m not going to tone that last sentence down. I can handle people calling homosexuality immoral or condemning others on religious beliefs or Bible passages, but when it comes to that? There is nothing slutty, abusive, disease ridden or miserable about my life. Thank you very much.

        • Ann_W

          And I don’t agree with that name calling, which I have argued on this site.

          However, what is wrong with this woman commenting on her personal experiences as a nurse? Why is her retelling of her experiences less valuable than davenj’s uninformed assertions in the diary? It’s possible that she is giving you insights that you don’t get from your position.

          If you are a gay man, while you may or may not have experienced the abuse, you and I both know that you have seen what a part of the lifestyle promiscuity is.

          Truth told almost always offends someone.

        • cheetah2

          I wouldn’t either. So many are being brainwashed about this. I would never condemn someone for giving way to an inclination to engage in behavior that is being glorified and promoted so extensively in our culture, especially because the chief victims are so very young and vulnerable.

          I consider those who get sucked into the “gay” lifestyle to be victims, and I am terribly sad to see it happening. I know that young men are recruited into this lifestyle and each one is idolized as long as he is young and attractive. Once the looks are gone he will be discarded like an old boot.

          I stand by my statement:
          “I have seen too much that most people are able to ignore because they are only exposed to the prettified, sanitized, and idealized view of homosexuality which is portrayed to them by the media.”

          I don’t know anything about your life. I do know something about the lives I have seen that were ruined by homosexuality. I believe the Bible tells the truth about homosexuality and what it says has been completely supported by my own observations.

          I presume you are homosexual, zackv. If you are not miserable now, be assured that the day is coming. I will be praying that you wake up to the truth before it is too late. I mean that honestly and lovingly. I would want only the best for your life. I have put you on my prayer list, as I will do for anyone else who replies to me as you have done.

          • zachv

            But, regardless, yes and I’m happy to be. But I would like to tell you something though.

            What really makes me uncomfortable, is the acceptance of the belief that there’s something wrong with homosexuality. Yeah, I’m gay, but it goes beyond that. OK. I don’t know anything about your life either, but I presume you’re older than I am and knowing, at least, my parents and older generations, I feel sorry for you all.

            You (older generation) all are so backwards and so intolerant of other people. I feel bad that they taught you to not accept gays, and to look down upon them . One of my former bosses is gay. He came out only after 2 kids and a failed marriage. That was so incredibly awkward for me, at least, simply because of how he was born in the 50s, he had to endure the abuse that you all put on him that I didn’t have to go through.

            I feel bad that you think gays are recruited, because I know that’s what you were taught and no one’s proved to you otherwise. I mean, I’ve seen the McCarthy-esk propaganda films they showed you. And how they villianized gays during the HIV scare.

            Why all you old people can’t accept homosexuality or minorities, or how you think you need to pray for me because of some 5 vague passages of tens of thousands … it’s so screwy.

          • archie77

            most people are simply indifferent. If you are a conservative or libertarian, campaign for marriage privatization for consenting adults. Otherwise, debating the topic is an epic waste of time. You will either offend or be offended. Pure futility.

          • zachv

            We’ve got 30 states or so states in this country that have banned gay marriage on a constitutional level. Sure, all of these states will eventually have them overturned, but until that time arrives, it’s going to be a battle the entire way.

            Look — I’ve met my fair share of completely intolerant people. But there’s a more than fair share of people that can be convinced to change sides on the same-sex marriage issues, or are indifferent and can come to be supportive. I’ve seen it happen more than once. I’ve even helped people change their minds, and had them acknowledge to me that they were wrong.

            Short of that, moving even one person’s opinion from anti-gay to indifference irrespective of their opinion on gay marriage is a win in my book. I mean, I’m assuming most of these poster have offspring and younger generations. And there is a 1-5% chance you know …

            Conservative, btw.

          • cheetah2

            That is a huge generalization to say that old people don’t accept minorities or homosexuals.

            It is certainly not true in my case. I never mentioned minorities at all. As for homosexuals, I am continually amazed that people are unable to understand the simple concept: Love the sinner & hate the sin. We all do it all the time, but it seems to be consider an impossibility when applied to a persons attitude about homosexuality. If I hate the sin, then in your book I MUST hate the sinner and nothing is farther from the truth.

            I would never assume that you hate old people that believe homosexuality is wrong. In fact I am sure you don’t. In practice you do hate what you consider to be wrong thinking yet you do not hate those who think that way. Why can’t you believe me capable of the same? That would constitute true tolerance in my opinion.

    • westcoastpatriette

      Good luck with that. You really think you’re going to get away with posting a diary on homosexual marriage at RedState without considering morals? You’re not serious are you?

      Your tone is condescending and methinks you have an agenda. You sound just like those who sympathize with the push to degrade the culture further by giving a license to homosexuals and calling it marriage.

      This sentence is irritating in itself: “Leaving the Bible and religion out of the argument, give me one of your best reasons to oppose gay marriage.” Typical twisting of the issue. Those of us who oppose normalizing and licensing deviant sex owe you nothing and I would turn the question around and say give me one reason we should change the definition of marriage to appease perverted sexual appetites. You and the rest who push this issue are selfish, self-centered individuals whose opinions carry zero weight to those who care about our country.

      In case you haven’t studied the history of homosexuals and culture, no culture that has embraced and promoted perverted sex has survived to tell about it. So, your insistence that the push for ssm hurts no one is a flat out lie and it is usually a waste of time trying to reason with people like you.

      • texasref

        about selfishness and “deviant” and ad hominem attacks instead of rational arguments against equality in marriage rights, I think it’s safe to say who’s winning this issue. And it’s showing up in the polls, and in state after state.

        I wouldn’t be for equality in marriage rights unless I was a conservative.

        • westcoastpatriette

          Gee, guess we’re pushing some little buttons there, huh? Poor baby.

          As for your last sentence, you are not allowed to change the definition of conservative at will….just because you don’t like or know the true definition. In case you haven’t heard, a true conservative recognizes that without a strong moral culture (the third leg of the conservative stool) it all crumbles.

          You sound just like the squawking babies (liberal babies) who demand what they want when they want it under the guise of “equality.” As if that is supposed to make us all bow in deference to how unfairly you are being treated. It makes me laugh.

          And as I stated in my previous post, trying to have a rational discussion with active militant homosexuals about this issue is a waste of time. Kinda like trying to reason with a thief who tells you they were born that way and cannot help themselves therefore, everyone simply must allow them to steal because they are not being treated equally. Sick. Just plain sick.

          • zachv

            http://www.danoah.com/2011/11/im-christian-unless-youre-gay.html

      • trickamsterdam

        I don’t know, there are still enough Greeks left to start a riot over spending cuts. I’ve heard this before, and have always considered it a false argument. Especially if you consider Greek culture is the foundation of Western [secular] Culture.

        • zachv

          This will make me a terrible person, but if there were only two Greeks left in the world, they could get together and riot over something. ;)

  • texasref

    whether the government may irrationally and arbitrarily deprive me of rights and privileges that it recognizes and grants heterosexual marriages.

    It is precisely the role of a co-equal branch of government, the judiciary, to step in and protect the rights of the minority from the will of the majority. For example, the first amendment does not protect speech that is popular with the majority; such speech needs no protection. Rather, it protects speech that infuriates the majority. Only by the power of the judiciary do such folks continue to enjoy their right to piss everybody else off. This is along the lines of, “I don’t agree with what you’re saying, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.”

    I don’t like an out of control liberal judiciary any more than the next conservative. However, I do want a judiciary that knows its bounds and the extent of its power as a co-equal, not superior branch of government. To this end, it does have an important role to play in showing maximum deference to the will of the people by employing a rational basis level of scrutiny whenever possible. Note I said “maximum,” not “complete.” In the rare cases where the legislative and executive branches, or the people through the initiative or proposition processes, overstep their power by imposing irrational, arbitrary, or capricious legislation, the courts are the last line of defense for my right to have the government treat my civil union in the same manner that it treats the civil union of my heterosexual couple of neighbors.

    It is the proper role of the judiciary to say what the law is. No amount of liberal overreach by the courts can erase that fact. I acknowledge that decades of bad law, with Roe and Casey being chief among them, have threatened to cause a backlash against the judiciary’s powers so severe that it could throw away the good aspects (the baby) with the bad (the dirty liberal bathwater). This should not happen.

    You don’t want the government recognizing gay marriages? Fine, get the government out of the business of deciding what’s a marriage and what’s not. You don’t want your church marrying gay people? Fine, we don’t want to get married in your church and wouldn’t be so rude as to insist that you let us.

    The original poster is absolutely wrong when he wishfully thinks that the Court will not rule decisively on this Prop 8 case. The Supreme Court most definitely will decide, and it will be in the tradition of the cases that forced states to recognize marriages between the races. There was no rational basis to enforce the laws against “miscegenation,” and there is no rational basis to enforce the laws against two consenting adults joining together in a governmentally-recognized union (call it marriage if you want).

    • trickamsterdam

      The problem is while it seems pretty clear to me that homosexuality is genetic (bordering on self-evident) many people (in fact most people in the world) consider it a life-style choice. It hasn’t been definitively decided, whereas clearly everyone knows black people are born black.

      So you’re empowering the SC to make the definitive and final statement. Unelected people who sit for life? That’s dangerous. They could turn this precedent into something where they just willy-nilly decide that any group they want is the same as a racial minority.

      I’m not saying the pro-gay marriage side has no legal or moral merit. But I will say that ruling in favor of it will create a legal precedent that might be used by later liberals to gives “civil rights” to pretty much any group they want (e.g., drug addicts).

      • lapert

        That’s news to me.

        • trickamsterdam

          I meant strike down the actual drug laws based on the fact that they have a genetic condition.

          • lapert

            Except the thing with gay marriage is that marriage is already established as a right by the supreme court so the question is about the rational basis for excluding homosexuals from marrying each other – very different than any argument that could be made regarding drugs (as it is also well established that the federal government can regulate drugs and food).

          • trickamsterdam

            Only different until some liberal 20 years from now makes it and gets four other liberals (or libertarians) to go along w/ him or her.

            Their ability to over-reach is legendary, and there are countless examples.

            We know that many liberals don’t like our drug laws because racial minorities often go to jail for selling while middle class or rich drug addicts often only go to rehab.

            There’s a class warfare and race angle to the Drug War that many liberals are upset about. Personally I wouldn’t mind at least thinking about a change in strategy myself. But I don’t want them legalized from the bench.

            If you can’t see liberals using this precedent to do that then you either haven’t spent enough time around liberals or you lack imagination.

            Look no offense but I’m done w/ this thread. You weren’t being irrational, but people on both sides tend to get very emotional, and frankly I just don’t care very much.

            Anyway I want to go back to ranting about Romney.

          • aesthete

            “Rational basis”, especially when you’re talking about a law that a) was enacted by popular referendum, and not by the legislature, and b) when you’re talking about a law that has good-faith rational basis arguments (explained to some length by the defendants), does not cover all policies and laws that you and I personally find stupid or repugnant. “Rational basis” in law tends to give a wide berth to what could be considered rational, precisely so that the judiciary does not run the risk of morphing into a council of logicians looking for holes in the laws of their country.

            Personally, I don’t care overmuch about the debate one way or another: there is some inconvenience associated with having to use powers of attorney and other legal documents to get the same legal situation that is easily obtainable through a marriage contract, but it’s not the titanic denial of rights or insurmountable obstacle that gay marriage proponents make it look like. Likewise, I don’t see the sacral nature of any government-chartered legal arrangement, much less one that (in the English tradition) was made a function of government by a philandering king, and which (from a legal point of view) largely exists to deal with the debris of failed marriages. The division of property, divorce courts, requirements to support one’s spouse, and other details of the marriage contract are hardly necessary in the case of a successful, loving marriage, after all. I see rule of law as far more important than the relatively minor and marginal changes that the gay marriage debate is about: if a state legalizes gay marriage, or maintains the status quo, through popular referendum or other legal processes, the judiciary should not change the status quo using fallacious reasoning that has not heretofore found purchase — and the state’s legal resources (AG, for instance) should be used to defend all of the states’ laws in court in good faith.

          • texasref

            that you seem to give mere lip-service to the judicary’s right to decide issues on a rational basis standard when you imply that pretty much zero legislative actions should be overturned on that standard. I agree it should be as close to zero as possible, but not pretty much zero.

            And then there are my rights to consider. There is that. Don’t deprive folks of their day in court, nor turn it into that of the kangaroo variety.

          • aesthete

            While I’m not 100% sold on the argument presented by C_T and others regarding the marginal benefits of government-chartered hetero-only marriage for the purpose of child rearing (and I certainly don’t support the benefits and absurd about of regulations surrounding the contract), it most certainly is a good-faith argument that satisfies the “rational basis” litmus test. Going past “is this a plausible/good faith argument” for general-purpose laws in a republic is beyond the scope of the judiciary, IMO.

            I think you’re begging the question when it comes to rights, and this might be because you and others responding to you are talking past one another. If I’m reading you correctly, you see marriage as a civil right sanctioned by the state in order to allow a person to pursue their own happiness. The people responding to you (mostly) implicitly see it as a privileged legal status established in order to fulfill X set of interests for society. Even if they don’t explicitly argue it that way, it is what is implied by their conditional statements and the general line of argument that they engage in. IMO, the second is truer than the first: while some attributes of marriage in law (the 5th Amendment spousal protections, for instance) could be construed as a right for those in similar circumstances (and could possibly be the subject of an equal rights lawsuit), most of the legal aspects are marriage are explicitly promoted under the auspices that heterosexual marriage is a better environment in which to create and foster children than alternatives. In this light, marriage’s legal status is more similar to a government subsidy or an attempt to pay for a unique public good.

            I honestly do not have a problem with gay marriage — it is not in my top ten issues, or something that concerns me too much, given that its absence seems more like an inconvenience than anything else (esp in states where there are civil unions or their equivalent). I don’t endorse the idea that homosexuals are more or less untrustworthy or productive as citizens than the other sinners who populate this great nation (i.e., everyone else). I do value rule of law over my personal preferences on this issue, however — and I have yet to see why I should change my priorities. (For the record, I’d have no problem with the disappearance of hetero marriage as a state benefit or preferred contract, either, and I don’t see it as a right.)

          • texasref

            nt

          • aesthete

            than to a conservative view of what approaches good jurisprudence. Most conservatives reject the reasoning which led to the federal government being given such wide and far-reaching latitude when it comes to regulation of food and drugs (starting with Wickard and ending with Raich); past decisions establishing marriage as a right at the federal level are simply not supported by the plain text of the Constitution or its amendments.

            In contrast, it’s pretty clear that (from a Constitutional standpoint) the laws established to combat drug use at the federal level are, in a word, un-Constitutional and should be declared as such by the cravens in the SC. [To keep it short, just pretend that I put my anti-war on drugs rant in these here brackets.] States have the power to regulate a plethora of activity, including marriage and drugs. The federal government does not. Supreme Court judgements should reflect this reality — more often than not, they have a prior sentiment about a law in question, and justify a decision that they’ve arrived at due to these sentiments using the drossy language and straw-grasping common to the legal profession.

          • lapert

            I agree that there is a conservative basis to challenge that precedent underpinning the regulation of the FDA – which is why I wouldn’t take sriously the suggestion that somehow it will be made a civil rights argument on the basis of marriage being a civil right.

            However, I disagree that there is no plain text reading that doesn’t establish marriage as a right. I think it was fundamentally understood that it was part of pursuit of happiness in so much it was an unalieanble right endowed unto man by our creator. It is not an accident is listed as such in Meyer v. Nebraska.

          • aesthete

            It’s a statement of intent — and in any case, doesn’t mention marriage. If you want to use the 9th instead, well, that’s uncharted legal territory.

          • lapert

            The court has held, at least since Meyer (1923), that the liberty protected by the due process clause of the 14th amendment includes the rights “essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men” – which includes a right to marry.

      • texasref

        It would be far preferable for the government either to get out of the business of picking winners and losers in whose marriages it recognizes, or to provide equality in marriage rights if it decides to stay in that business. The courts are not the preferred method of problem-solving. They are a last step to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority, and that’s IT. Nothing more, but even more importantly, nothing less.

        What you describe is only dangerous when the judiciary oversteps its proper role beyond that of a co-equal branch of government and into a superlegislature. I’m sure that in the rare instances where court powers are warranted to overturn the will of the majority that the losing side of the issue views the courts as a superlegislature, but if the courts never stepped in, then either the legislative branch is always getting it right and never infringing on minority rights (yeah, right), or the courts are simply the legislature’s / majority’s lackey, with no power at all in a structure that has the executive and legislative branches reign supreme together, with no third branch.

        It is painful to be arguing the case for judicial power, given how amok I believe the branch has run. They need no one to carry any truck for them. Except maybe this one issue. Maybe.

        I am fully on board with Gingrich’s bold approach to judicial restructuring so that the courts themselves do not overcorrect unconstitutional legislation with an irrational exuberance of their own.

        • trickamsterdam

          I understand.

          Originally I said I wasn’t going to respond…mostly because threads (issues) like this end up getting so endless and emotional.

          Then I thought I owed you a response if you responded because your initial post obviously took time and was well thought-out. I’ll also add ones for Aesthete and Lampert and the Author of the thread (don’t feel like scrolling up to look (dave something?) since I’m doing it.

          Originally, I meant to add anyway that the right ruling must be made by the SC, regardless of how future SC’s might use and abuse it to do what they want. Otherwise you never rule on anything because you’re afraid of what people might do later.

          So I’ll say for the record:

          1) If it came up on the ballot I would vote for it (in fact I did…didn’t pass)

          2) If I had a vote on the SC I would probably vote in favor…but I would dread how I know future liberals would twist my vote.

          BTW, I’m bi-racial so I get your inter-racial marriage law example. Also I’m sure its not easy being a gay Republican. It’s actually easy being a Republican race minority because they’re always trying to recruit that so for me it’s easy. Take it easy, Texasref.

          @ aesthete: Great posts as usual. One of the reasons I wanted to get off the thread is I can’t compete w/ the technical knowledge on the Law…also I could foresee people yelling at me. Also it would probably take too much time yelling at the people yelling at me. But I’m glad I read your posts.

          Speaking of people not yelling at me but making posts that would require endless replies:

          @ lampert:

          You seem to be an educated man or woman. And you know the Law better than me. The problem is I know liberals better than you. They don’t care about the Law. At all. They care about Justice as they see it. They’re not much different than a cop who shoots a criminal he thinks is guilty (even if there’s a doubt) and says the guy was resisting arrest. That cop cares about his sense of Justice but not about the Law. And just like w/ liberal activist Justice SC rulings a lot of people would probably agree w/ him.

          But that’s all that rogue SC Justices are. Like that cop. So if you think they can’t arrive at a position they think is “Just” and then work backwards don’t read the Law read history.

          Which brings me to:

          @ the author of the thread:

          “Incidentally, for someone to state (not you) that there was no rational basis to rule against miscegenation laws is, well

    • demsaresatanic

      allowing emotion to overcome reason. A judiciary with the power to invent out of whole cloth a constitutional right to homosexual marriage is the last thing this country needs.

      • texasref

        I’d be happy to have a heterosexual surrogate make these same points that I’m making, if that will convince you of the emotionless nature of the points.

        I am making emotionless arguments in a rational debate about an issue that centers around the most emotional subject of all: love, which is the foundation of marriage. Do not stand between two people in love, ladies and gentlemen; you will lose every single time. The Supreme Court will speak in June 2013, and that will be that.

    • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil truth

      1) Current definition of marriage does have a rational basis. In particular the institution historically has at least these two objectives

      a) channeling of sexual relations to between two individuals which have a legal relationship involving mutual obligations.

      An objective which certainly has a low compliance rate, but nonetheless an objective

      b) Creating a container for protecting and advancing the rights of those children which result from sexual relations

      (Note that fertility is a sufficient but not a necessary condition for the marriage institution.)

      The presence of a rational basis excludes court action.

      and going on…

      2) States – and more generally, society- are free to change the definition of marriage, and that includes a new definition that includes gay marriage.

      However, this change is effected at the legislative (and/or referendum/initiative level).

      And this indeed is where discussion and winning of hearts and minds should be carried out – and where a societal consensus can be hammered out.

      3) As an aside, BTW, we are already seeing the government use anti-discrimination statutes to punish churches who do not agree to place adoptions with gay couples. With a constitutional imprimatur that opposition to gay marriage is a violation of civil rights, it is only a matter of time before church will have to fall in line or face governmental sanction. The arguments are already being voiced.

  • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

    has defeated such legislation to allow it. And these votes aren

    • zachv

      http://www.redstate.com/dan_mclaughlin/2012/02/15/the-proposition-8-decision-not-rational/#comment-10925

      • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

        So what? The point still stands that every single state that has voted on the issue has voted against SSM. And as long as this issue comes up, I’ll keep on making the exact same point.

        davenj1 raised the issue of attitudes changing since 1996. I gave proof of current attitudes as reflected in actual votes rather than polls or what the media throws out. Can’t help it if you don’t like it.

        • zachv

          And yeah of course, I don’t like it. And North Carolina will be the next to institute a constitutional gay marriage ban.

          But, what’s exactly will be your position when the tide turns this fall? Washington and Maine will vote in favor of gay marriage, and Maryland is a toss up. It’s also very possible that the marriage amendment in Minnesota will fail as well.

          That’s 3-4 states that will suddenly have pro-SSM votes, which will only further demonstrate how SSM support has almost doubled from 27% to 53% in a decade and a half. It basically ruins the argument that people’s opinions have not changed.

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            Discussed here.

            The poll simply asks the direct question of if you agree that marriage should be defined ONLY as a union between one man and one woman. 62% of Americans agree, with 53% strongly agreeing. No questions framed to skew results. A simple, direct question with which the majority of Americans agreed. I question your stats just like most liberal polls and stats.

          • texasref

            picketing the funeral of a straight military hero killed in action, you’d get a 99% to 1% result, but the courts would still enforce their right to free speech.

            So I don’t care if its 62% or whatever percent you have; yes, ideally, we would change hearts and minds and enact laws that are fair and treat everyone equally, but we need not wait around to secure a majority for our position to win the day in a court of law.

            To this day, none of the courts who have heard this issue have heard one single solitary rational argument for depriving folks of equality in marriage rights. And these aren’t courts full of pride paraders, either!

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            And in your world, once there is no “depriving folks of equality in marriage rights,” anybody and everybody can get married because there will be no standing to have any restrictions. And forgive me if I don’t believe the gay rights movement when they say they’re “willing” to allow religious exemptions. Are they standing up for the Catholic church’s right not to be forced to provide birth control? See here for a clear example of the type of tolerance permitted toward Christians for our beliefs.

            Now, I admit it is difficult for me to leave religion out of the discussion. I believe the divine word of God in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Jude 7, and Romans 1:26-27 (all New Testament scriptures). I believe that God created the home (Gen. 2:24) and regulated that sex is between a man and a woman within the bounds of monogamous marriage, even though he forgives sexual sins of adultery, fornication, homosexuality and others. I believe we are by design sexual beings. Common sense tells us exactly how our bodies are designed to fit and procreate. There is absolutely nothing that will ever change that.

            However, there are non-religious arguments to be made with regard to protecting traditional marriage.

            First, the right to free speech is enumerated in the First Amendment. There is no such “right” to marry any more than there is a “right” to birth control or a “right” to choice enumerated anywhere in the Constitution.

            From this article: here:

            …marriage has been, until now, a privileged institution: It is because only the sexual union of men and women create children. Society has important interests in children, even beyond the obvious fact that they are society’s future. Children are also big investments. In order to avoid expanded outside intrusion into the process of child rearing (think divorce, paternity suits, custody battles, and “The Maury Povich Show”), society has favored the stable, supportive environment that a united father and mother best provide.

            From another good article here:

            Pitirim Sorokin, founder and first chair of the Sociology Department at Harvard, proclaimed the importance of married parents some fifty years ago.

            The most essential sociocultural patterning of a newborn human organism is achieved by the family. It is the first and most efficient sculptor of human material, shaping the physical, behavioral, mental, moral and sociocultural characteristics of practically every individual.

          • texasref

            I am adamant about religious liberty and would be consistently standing at your side in defending the right of your faith-based organization not to have the government dictate who you must issue abortion pills to and who your pastor must marry.

  • davenj1

    First off, the following countries have same sex marriage: holland, Belgium, Spain, Canada, South Africa, Norway, Sweden, Portugal, Iceland and Argentina. Additionally, gay marriages are performed in Mexico City and recognized throughout Mexico. Israel also recognizes same sex marriage. In all of those cases I do not see an instance of their culture falling by the wayside. That is the recent history of homosexuality so please spare me examples from antiquity. In short, can you explain to me how the culture in these countries was degraded? And the last time I checked, Massachusetts, Vermont and every other state that recognizes gay marriage hasn’t fallen off the map, nor were they attacked by swarms of locusts. And, going on a limb, I bet Washington and Maryland will be there years from now.

    Secondly, there is no agenda on my part and I was certainly not condescending. The article was about the probability that the US Supreme Court would even consider the Proposition 8 case out of California. Period. However, you have taken the subject to extremes by advancing your agenda which is obviously anti-gay.

    Third, I am sorry, but if you read any article on the pros and cons of gay marriage, the cons generally start to cite Biblical passages and inject religion into the argument. I understand and know there are Biblical prohibitions against homosexuality. Duh! There are also Biblical proscriptions that would never see the light of day in modern law. And any law, when one thinks about, expresses a moral view of some kind.

    And finally, it is the social conservatives and THEIR agenda in the Republican Party that will be the ruination of the party.

    • westcoastpatriette

      with homosexual advocates as they are unable to judge matters with sound judgment. So, I have nothing further to say to you except that most of your arguments are very, very, unpersuasive.

      • davenj1

        You read toooo much into a rather neutral entry that states at the beginning it is not about the morality of homosexuality. Yes, I threw a personal opinion in there towards the end. If given the chance through referendum, I quite frankly don’t know how I would vote before hearing the arguments on both sides from people in my state. Likewise, once my state spoke, i would expect the losing side to try again next time without running to the courts. But to assert that I am a homosexual advocate because I have an open mind is “name calling” I would exepct from a liberal, not an alleged conservative.

        • Jack_Savage

          Absolute, total bullcrap. Apparently you don’t read a lot, and the strongest arguments against gay marriage leave religion totally out of it.

          Don’t confuse an open mind with an empty one.

          • texasref

            The only arguments folks like you are making are ones spiced with ad hominems and borderline profanity. No need to be angry about things; it’s ultimately love that we’re talking about here!

            If you come up with even one merely RATIONAL argument (let alone your so-called “strongest arguments”), you better run tell the folks trying to defend the indefensible, because they would love to take your argument and run it up the flagpole in court, because they have yet to find one. So there ya go, don’t say I never gave you any good advice.

          • Eyeofnewt

            For the most part Jack’s post are disgusting and vile.

          • Jack_Savage

            Your posting history consists mainly of stalking around and commenting on how comments are inappropriate, attempting to play the victim of offended sensibilities.

            I appreciate that you want to be hall monitor, but we have people here that do that. They are called “moderators”. When they tell me to knock it off, I will. You don’t have the standing here to evaluate these things, or to call anyone out, and you would do well to remember that.

            When you have something substantive to add to the discussion, please do so. Otherwise please spend your time peering through the blinds outside of someone else’s house and leave me alone. Otherwise you will find out what the word “vile” really means, because right now you don’t seem to know.

          • Jack_Savage

            And you obviously didn’t read the comment. What he said was patently false, and that is what I was responding to. Not only that, he was implying that any argument against gay marriage that has a religious component is on its face invalid.

            I have no doubt that gay marriage advocates, having lost time and time again in referendums, will continue to find far leftist judges to impose their will on the population. Congratulations. What you neglect to do is to offer any argument, other than “Love! They can’t stand love” And happiness! All we want is happiness!” that would offer any reason to turn hundreds of years of law and tradition upside down and inside out.

            You can’t argue that it helps society, you can’t argue that is strengthens families, you can argue that it is more beneficial to children, you can’t argue that it adheres to any law of nature, and you can’t argue that such a radical change in such a fundamental institution need not be supported by the majority of the people.

            When it’s all said an done, all you are left with is the argument that those who oppose gay marriage are meanies. And here is some advice for you – no one is buying. All proponents are trying to do is force affirmation of gay marriage down the throats of millions of people who oppose it for a bunch of very, very good reasons.

          • Jack_Savage

            Because it isn’t.

          • texasref

            that isn’t based on a religious interpretation, which surely you wouldn’t expect the courts to uphold a law that had as its foundation a solely religious motive? What next, sharia?

            When you provide that good rationale, I will be sure to pass it along to the folks arguing in federal courts right now against equality of marriage rights, so that they can actually win finally on a rational basis standard of scrutiny.

          • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil truth

            http://www.redstate.com/davenj1/2012/03/04/in-the-pipeline-gay-marriage/#comment-889

            It’s a skeletal outline, but it should serve as a starting point for conversation.

          • Jack_Savage

            To turn the institution of marriage on is head? I really am still waiting on that one, because you certainly haven’t provided one.The burden is yours, friend.

            And again, because you are able to find friendly, leftist judges who ignore law and tradition in order to legislate from the bench certainly does not make you right or your arguments valid. I think you know that being able to do this is a pretty thin straw to grasp as an argument pro-gay marriage. “See! Look! A judge said it was OK! Now shut up and go along!”

            Perhaps you should try to win one – just one – referendum and not depend on judges bought and paid for by the left.

          • texasref

            with their conclusions.

            Perhaps YOU should try to pass an amendment to the U.S. constitution to achieve the outcome on this issue that you seek. That is the only way to guarantee the judiciary will fall in line with what you want, because the constitution as it stands now will no more tolerate this inequality than it did any other. And lest you doubt the outcome in June 2013, Lawrence v. Texas was decided not 5-4, but 6-3, so it’s not looking too good for those who would deprive folks of equality of marriage rights.

          • Jack_Savage

            I didn’t see your argument about how turning the institution of marriage upside down was beneficial to society. Since the burden of proof is yours, perhaps you could offer some reasoning for this instead of relying on judges to help your cause?

            And explain to us why a change of this magnitude to an institution so fundamental to society should rely on judicial fiat, contrary to the will of the people as expressed time and time again?

            Again, care to answer that? Or are you still working on it?

          • Jack_Savage

            I was doing a little research, and found that prohibitions against stealing and killing ARE FOUND IN THE BIBLE. I know – for real? Yep, for real.

            Anyway, interested in hearing how they should be invalidated because they have a religious basis. And I am not holding my breath for either of the two answers from you. For real.

      • texasref

    • Locked and Loaded

      “…nor were they attacked by swarms of locusts.”

      If you really wanted to leave the Biblical considerations out of it, you wasted your opportunity.

      Since you don’t want anyone to “inject” religion into the argument, how about you make a purely scientific case for the generational prospects of maintaining a homosexual institution?

      Never mind; let me help you with that. Only by “deviating” from what is biologically sustainable will you get new homosexuals.

      • davenj1

        apparently you don’t recognize sarcasm when you see it. I was responding to the assertion that gay marriage or homosexuality would cause the collapse of civilization. Please don’t question my religiosity!

  • davenj1

    Yes, I am aware. And that is part and parcel of the posting. In the case of prop 8, the people spoke, the courts overturned the will of the people. And I think that is what I said- if the attitudes of the people have changed since 1996- the passage of DOMA- then it is up to the people, through referendum or legislation AT THE STATE LEVEL to change the law. As you point out, those attitudes haven’t changed (except in 8 states and DC), Hence we have state constitutional amendments and such…which is the way it should be. My point is purely legal. The case will not be heard by the Court because of the reasons stated.

    • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

      that you raised the issue of whether or not attitudes have changed since 1996, yet for whatever reason, you failed to point out that every single state that has voted on SSM voted against it. I’ve heard from SSM proponents more than once that we should let the states decide. Well, several have done so, but they don’t like the outcome, so they take to the courts. I was just trying to provide a little more information as well as offer a non-religious reason against SSM vis a vis the ideal home for a child.

  • davenj1

    in that the Supreme Court will not take this place UNLESS they do so under the Tenth or Eleventh Amendment. The fact is that the Court in 1972 in a case involving disparate impact involving a same sex couple in Minnesota stated there was no “substantial federal question.” Because it was an automatic appeal not requiring discretionary cert, they necessarily had to rule on the merits and came to that conclusion. Not much has changed since then since same sex relations are not rooted in our history and traditions. There is no constitutional right to marry just as there is no constitutional right to smoke a cigarette.

    And as for the will of the people argument, being that there is no constitutional right to marry, the federal courts should stay out of what is traditionally a state matter. States have traditionally “regulated” and “defined” domestic relations. The LOVING decision involved heterosexual marriage, which is deeply rooted in our history and traditions and thus amenable to constitutional protection under the Equal Protection Clause. Incidentally, for someone to state (not you) that there was no rational basis to rule against miscegenation laws is, well….ignorant.

    • texasref

      Heck, the Court overruuled a 1986 decision back in 2003, so they aren’t afriad to get things right when they screw up on issues of liberty.

      (Bowers v. Hardwick, 1986 and Lawerence v. Texas, 2003)

  • davenj1

    for once again succinctly stating commonsense. I fully agree that the radical gay activist community over exaggerates the alleged hardships. Most of it can be addressed through intestacy and contract law. In one and only one case can I find a legal problem and that is under the Fifth Amendment. Namely, absent “marriage,” one member in a gay dyad can be compelled to testify against another in a criminal or civil trial. But surely the best and brightest legal minds can devise some mechanism to address this without rewriting centuries of human history regarding the definition of marriage.

  • davenj1

    the comment about promiscuity. Yes, it is a stereotype. Someone in a heterosexual marriage can be as promiscuous as one in a same sex relationship. Sometimes maybe more so. My point is that same sex couples can enter into monogamous relationships that would maybe help dispel those stereotypes. I gave the example of people I know (gay couples) who have adopted children and they are the pinnacle of parenthood providing a loving, stable home for children heterosexual couples essentially discarded. And incidentally, they did so under civil union status, not marriage. Hence, the rights afforded married heterosexual couples can be had by gay couples absent a marriage license.

    • zachv

      Thanks n/t

      • Ann_W

        However, the few studies that have covered this topic have found that statistically speaking gays are VERY much less monogamous to the point of monogamy being nonexistant for relationships over five years. So that’s not just talking about the promiscuous person here or there it is the group. It is at the heart of the lifestyle.

        Here’s a link for people who aren’t aware of what I’m talking about, like you do.
        http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/15/DD4C1EDP1A.DTL The gay man in the article says that “It’s a redefinition of marriage…” That’s what this has always been about. Gays don’t want the right to be married like traditional marriages have been in this country, they want to reshape and change marriage. Open marriages are not marriages, and that’s what gay people would like to change it to.

        Here’s another good map of the way forward from these progressive minded folks, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=1 I love Mr. Quirk’s quote in the middle which tells us that the innovation (open marriage) that gay marriage brings will save traditional marriage.

        • zachv

          Ok, I don’t mean to offend, but as I sit here typing on my computer, I’m imaging I’m speaking to a 40 year old Christian white woman telling me — a gay man — what the “central part of the gay experience” is.

          Honestly, from what you’ve said about homosexuals (promiscuous, abusive, child molesters) … Honey, I don’t even think you’ve met a gay person let alone befriended one. You’re acting as if you’re absolutely clueless, as if gays are foreign boogey people that want to ruin marriage and touch little kids. I mean, I don’t want to be rude, but do you live in a bubble?

          Gay men and women want to get married BECAUSE they respect the tradition of marriage. They WANT to be able to stand up in front of their family and friends and vow lifelong commitment to their partner “… until death do we part.” Gay men and women who want to get married are FOR fidelity, commitment and stable relationships. That’s the whole reason they are fighting literally TOOTHANDNAIL to get married. How have you not realized this?

          • Ann_W

            There’s the Canadian study that found that after one year only 25% of gay relationships are monogamous, or the Amsterdam study showing that monogamy after 5 years is virtually non-existent. Or we could look at the study from the article I already linked where two gay men contacted married and non-married gay couples to find out their “sexual agreements” (how they handled their open relationships). There is lots of research out there because it ties in w/ AIDS prevention studies that are commonly funded. But it is a huge waste of my time if you would not acknowledge the research that is out there that confirms this over and over. How many studies would it take before you would accept the research?

            I didn’t say what you say I said about gays. I said that if there are issues we wouldn’t know about them because reporting on this issue is skewed. It’s the news examples I gave that you have an issue with. I’m sorry, but those are the ones that I actually ran into.

            My daughter got invited to a b-day party hosted by two dads. She went and I went and chatted, it was enjoyable, I don’t hate anyone. (They’ve since broken up.) I don’t care who you love, who you sleep with, etc. etc. etc. But don’t say that we have to change an institution that over thousands of years has benefitted countless people young and old, and not expect blowback.

            You want to change gender requirements, and in the community’s literature there are discussions about how to change it to handle the lack of monogamy that has always existed w/ gay relationships. But you must live in your own bubble if you can’t even admit that. Get a civil union, why not, unless changing the institution is the real goal.

          • Jack_Savage

            Everything you said in your last paragraph can be done without marriage being involved at all. You are simply agitating for societal blessing of your arrangement. Period.

            As Ann W referenced, every study of gay males that I have ever read comes to the very same conclusion – monogamous relationships among gay male couples for any extended period of time are a very, very small minority. So when you passionately argue that gay men want to get married are for fidelity, commitment and stable relationships, it rings very hollow.

          • jermane2020

            You write:
            when you passionately argue that gay men want to get married are for fidelity, commitment and stable relationships, it rings very hollow.

            Whey, then, do you think they want to enter into any kind of civil union? Note that I’m not talking about why they want “marriage” specifically. I’m asking why you think they would want to enter into a formal legal relationship if not to at least show an intent to maintain a stable, committed relationship. What do you think is their motivation?

            Secondly, what about gay women? Not that I have any idea if your information on gay men is valid or not, but do you believe you have any such info on lesbians? I ask because, frankly, as a (straight) guy, I think I can speak for most guys in saying that what puts the breaks on how often we have sex is not our choice but rather women. I think if women were as eager and willing to have sex as guys, we’d all be having a lot more sex. So it wouldn’t surprise me if unmarried gay men have sex more often than straight men. Nor do I think having a lot of sex is a bad thing, other than risk of disease. Sex is fun, in case you are unfamiliar with it personally.

          • Jack_Savage

            http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html?_r=1

            Maybe if you did the tiniest bit of research or original thinking, this wouldn’t be so difficult for you to understand. Read the article a few times, then maybe get someone to paraphrase it for you if that doesn’t work.

            As far as why they would want to enter into a formal legal relationship, the reasons could include health care benefits, tax benefits, inheritance, etc, etc, etc, etc, etfriggincetera. Think about it for a half second.

            Although I don’t have any studies at hand, it seems anecdotally that many women come to realize they are lesbians or choose a lesbian sexual lifestyle later in life, whereas males seem to know their sexual orientation quite early on. Most lesbians I know have had this experience. Cynthia Nixon of “Sex And The City” fame recently really pissed the gay community off when she declared recently that she had chosen to be a lesbian, rather than having been born one, this after presenting her former husband with two children.

            As you have been able to discern, women approach sex differently than men, so it would stand to reason that lesbians would have a different story to tell than gay males.

            As far the news flash of sex being fun, I appreciate that you are so willing to share the fact that you are quite the ladies man. Congratulations, and thanks so much for letting us all in on it. Perhaps you could hit on the female members here and see if they succumb to your charm, as I am sure every bank teller, grocery store clerk and supermodel do. As for me, the stork brought my three children so I will have to take your word for how fun sex is.

          • jermane2020

            Was it that hard to answer 2 out of 2 ?

            So, do you have any such (supposed) info indicating that lesbians are more promiscuous than heterosexual men or heterosexual women? You claimed some such info only for gay men, conspicuously leaving out any mention of gay women, who also want civil marriage. And if you have no such info on lesbians, are you ok with two women being able to enter into civil marriage, or will you just shift to some other objection (as I suspect)?

            Second, re: your answer as to motivation of gay men who want to enter into some civil union (by whatever name), it seems your answer is that they only want to do so because either both people see financial benefits of doing so or one sees such benefits and pressures/persuades the other into doing so. Is that correct — that the motivators or only practical, financial benefits, as opposed to any desire to express and feel and try to live up to a commitment to each other?

          • Jack_Savage

            Is it just too hard to read? And understand what is actually being discussed?

            Let me type slowly. The proposition from zachv is that gay couples only want to get married so they can proclaim their love for each other and be monogamous. My point to him, which went over your head, is that 1) can be done without marriage, and study after study shows that 2) is rare for gay men. He knows that, and this is why I said his plea rings hollow.

            I am sure there is a possibility that gay males want to be committed to each other, among other things (your question was why else would they want to be married, and I answered that) but studies show this doesn’t happen in a majority of cases. That was my point.

            With me so far?

            Here is what I wrote about lesbians, which used words I thought you could get:

            “Although I don

        • texasref

          because you didn’t use a child abuse argument in your comment.

          Progress. (non-sarcastic)

          • Ann_W

            I gave two examples of articles that showed the news media being deceptive with this issue. I’m sorry both of those articles happened to be about topics you didn’t like. Maybe next time they’ll be deceptive about the latest tux styles for gay weddings, then my illustrations could be acceptable to you.

          • texasref

            you referenced the sexual abuse of children as part of your rationale for your position on the issue of equality of marriage rights. I don’t mind discussing topics that are distasteful to all of us, if they are pertinent to the discussion at hand. Please help me understand what child sexual abuse has to do with equality of marriage rights.

          • Ann_W

            In the larger context of the media, etc. not being completely forthcoming about gay issues, my question is that with the much higher rates of sexual partners cycling through a gay household wouldn’t it make sense that children are at greater risk of abuse? Children of single mothers are at 5 times the risk of abuse and violence. IIRC this is because of the unstable “social life”. Why wouldn’t this translate the same way in a gay situation? Would we know about it if it did?

          • texasref

            an unstable social life worsens the odds for children. They need a family, not a revolving-door. You and I can disagree about what stability and the ideal situation looks like, but we do agree that having a new daddy enter the picture every couple years–straight couple or otherwise–absolutely increases the risk of child sexual abuse. It’s the chaos and everything else that goes with it. But that isn’t an argument for or against gay marriage, it just is a basic fact that we do agree on.

          • Ann_W

            My whole life is about the welfare of children. The part that will probably tick you off as it does zachv is that where this issue meets the other, is in the multitude of evidence that statistically speaking gay relationships are MUCH more unstable than straight ones. Over a lifetime straight married couples stay completely monogamous about 80% of the time. That figure is almost reversed over just one year for gay couples. If you are in the community you must be aware that this difference is real. That is a huge difference, and the main source of my concern for equating gay marriage with straight marriage.

          • Jack_Savage

            “Tradition” is not some terrible, constrictive prison, it is actually the sum of the “best practices” of a society. We do things a certain way because it has worked out well for hundreds of years.

            Conservatives like slow change, because rapid change which overturns traditional practices involves unintended consequences and lots of the time, disaster.

            The information you provided is true, and that is why most gay marriage advocates retreat into the “Ad hominem! Homophobe!” line of argument, or a diversion of the discussion, when faced with those facts. That is also why there aren’t many studies being conducted today on the subject, because it is more a political issue than anything.

            It is not about love, or commitment, or parenting. It never has been. It is about reshaping and redefining marriage in order to gain society’s blessing and benefits, and to force acceptance of that lifestyle on those who object to it. By any means necessary (see texasref’s obsession with the courts).

            Anyway, you have comported yourself well, and do a very good job explaining your side of this issue. Thanks.

          • davenj1

            Jack Savage regarding comments on tradition. Yes, heterosexual marriage HAS served mankind exceptionally well for many centuries. And for that reason, any changes to the fundamental definition- that is, the union of man and woman- must proceed slowly. You are also correct about the liberal propensity to resort to ad hominem lines of attack that fail to address, in a meaningful way, the subject at hand…..any subject!

            Marriage laws change and they are a reflection of society in general. Whether it is the breaking down of barriers regarding interracial marriage or coverture, legislative creations like no fault divorce, etc., the laws and the relationships defined by the state within the institution of marriage have undergone change over the years. But, we do not change something that lasted for centuries overnight because Gallup poll shows something. If we change it, we do it incrementally after debate where both sides present their best arguments. We keep name-calling and diversionary tactics out of it. And as I stated in the original posting (which I really did not think was that controversial), that is what Ginsburg was getting at in her comments regarding Roe v. Wade. The slow change- if there is necessarily to be change at all- takes on much greater weight when it occurs at the legislative level rather than through judicial fiat. And I understand that in certain instances, the courts need to step in lest some constitutional right gets trampled, sullied, or ignored. I am not saying the courts have no role, but that they should defer to the people through their legislative actions and determinations unless there is clearly a prejudicial animus absent a legitimate state interest. And it can be argued that states have a legitimate interest in protecting opposite-sex marriage.

            I understand everyone’s point of view, from the emotional comments which are heartfelt and true to the writer’s convictions to the arcane standards of judicial scrutiny and which applies.

          • Ann_W

            When you see everyday little kids hurt that is caused by people who should know better. (And, no, the majority of them are not hurt by this issue specifically.) However, I have not communicated that emotion, just research.

            Where you go wrong is when you say, “If we change it, we do it incrementally after debate where both sides present their best arguments.” Where, outside of this discussion on Redstate have you seen both sides of this argument? I have seen my points a couple of times on Christian discussion pages, but I have never seen them allowed as part of a mainstream discussion in, say, the NYT or a tv show. Have you? These facts are not allowed in the discussion, and the discussion controllers pretend that they do not exist. That’s why our young people are turning on this issue (including my own daughter). They have only ever been allowed to see one side of this issue (and to not trust their own parents, thank you public schools.) And, being the kind hearted youth that they are they do the logical thing based on what has been presented.

            Contrary to what you have been told gayness isn’t genetic. (Identical twin studies presented a pattern much more indicative of nurture or environment than genetics.) Blah, blah, blah, I could go on, and I’m sure you don’t care. But as I said before– when you believe everything you hear, realize that you aren’t being told everything.

          • texasref

            We may be born with a predisposition to be left handed, but if the nuns slap our fingers every time we grab the pencil with our left hand in kindergarten, then perhaps we become right handed.

            Some aspects, such as our sex, are almost entirely genetically influenced, but there are certain environmental conditions in the womb that make one sex or the other more likely to thrive, so even that is not 100%.

            The anti-gays can’t honestly say it’s all environment, and the pro-gays can’t honestly say “you’re just born this way.” Because that’s not the whole story.

          • Ann_W

            And coming from someone who’s womb is hostile to male children I understand those concerns. But when the babies did manage to make it out they were obviously either a boy or a girl. Just like you, I don’t know the whole answer, but I know that the media pretends that it is settled science that it’s genetic.

            On your comment below, I get what you are saying that it’s gender not gayness, but that’s just one more reason that kids should get a chance to have both a mom and a dad. The difference you mention is one of many differences men and women have that complement each other and I’m not ready to define away that specialness by including lots of other variations in marriage.

            Well, I have to get going. You have been a rational conversationalist, which is rare for such deeply felt issues. Maybe when I move to TX like all my NE neighbors I’ll buy you a lemonade sometime.

          • Ann_W

            The scary part is that you usually are not allowed to get to the meat of this argument because anyone trying to make it is shut down quickly and decisively.

            You seriously made my day, too. :)

          • texasref

            The difference in monogamy stats agrees with my personal observations, and it has, in my humble opinion, to do more with the fact that gay couples tend to be more secular and/or liberal and therefore have less of a profound self-restriction on being monogamous, but additionally it’s about the fact that you have two men in a relationship with no woman in the picture, and you can draw your own conclusions about that. So I would say it has nothing to do with the homosexuality and everything to do with the lack of a feminine presence. So based on what you’re saying, I think if you analyzed lesbian relationships, you’d find more monogamy perhaps than in straight relationships, and even less monogamy in gay ones.

            But now we’re going off into the weeds into pure conjecture.

  • aesthete

    that need to be untangled before we can get to a productive place in these discussions.

    1) The moral/societal/philosophical status of homosexuality. Full disclosure: I’m a Christian with pretty orthodox beliefs regarding this subject. As with most heterosexual males, I also find myself viscerally sickened when I contemplate the idea of homosexual, uh, relations in graphic detail (I understand that the same is true of homosexuals, but in reverse). However, this is not really a subject relevant to the discussion: there’s little doubt that under the current legal arrangement, homosexuals are legally allowed to have sex with their partners, have a private ceremony, call themselves married, etc. They can even, through the use of various legal documents, cobble together a nearly identical packet of rights and responsibilities for the two gay folks in a relationship — inconvenient, yes, but almost indistinguishable from the marriage contract from a practical perspective. This is a good thing: it’s good that people aren’t being put in jail or being fined for choices that affect them, and which benefit or harm only them. Unless you’re going to argue for the re-institution of legal barriers to homosexuality en se (a completely different discussion, and best of luck to you in winning that argument), then it’s a discussion that’s not really relevant when we’re limiting the discussion to the marriage contract.

    2) Adoption. This is a sticky wicket for several reasons, but again should be detached from the general subject of homosexual marriage. Among the various European states, there exist different attitudes and laws surrounding adoption and marriage: Sweden, for example, was one of the first nations to establish gay marriage as a benefit, but has extraordinarily strict adoption laws which discriminate against gays — the Swedish public agrees with these restrictions. France, in contrast, has not yet adopted gay marriage, but has relatively loose adoption laws more friendly to the notion of gays adopting.

    3) Characteristics of homosexual/heterosexual pairings. Again, we already have homosexuals pairing off under the current system. Unless someone can offer me and others proof, or a plausible mechanism, by which positive or negative characteristics of these pairings are perpetuated through the adoption of gay marriage, it’s another red herring.

    All of the above subjects are appropriate to discuss on their own merits, of course — but detract from a focused discussion of modification of the government’s marriage contract.

  • davenj1

    Since the purpose of the diary entry was about whether the Supreme can, or even should, take up the Proposition 8 case out of California. The sometimes emotional responses here are probably why Mitch Daniels wanted a “moratorium” on social issues.

  • naraht

    1) There are those who propose the solution of changing what all states have and the federal government recognizes to be a “Civil Union” and then you go to a Religious Leader to get married. While in final form, this might work, there is no way that you are either going to get acceptance for either 1) the federal goverment going to people and saying that “your marriage isn’t any more and if you want to be married again, find a Minister/Rabbi/Whatever. or 2) setting a date after which people will be “Civil Unioned” rather than Married. (and without a constitutional amendment, I doubt that could be enforced.)

    2) I just can’t see that many congressmen on *either* side of the aisle supporting a bill that would give to those in a Civil Union the Federal rights of Marriage such as not having to testify against each other in federal court or being able to file joint taxes. And there is no way for a Gay couple to get either of those rights regardless of what legal contracts they sign with each other.

    3) Supreme Court: If the Supremes decided to take the Prop 8 case, it won’t be argued this session (there is still another round in the 9th circuit to go) and I’m not even sure it will be argued before the Supreme Court prior to the election and even if it is, there won’t be a decision on it before the election: Think June 2013…

    4) Polling by age. Unlike Abortion which has more or less equal support/opposition by age, the Gay Marriage/Civil Union etc.polling shows an absolutely nuts age differential. I think the numbers are something like 1 in 10 people over age 65 support gay marrage and 6 in 10 under age 35.

    5) Europe. the three largest Western European countries (Britiain, France and Germany) are essentially at “Cilvil Union+” level. Don’t call it marriage, but get fairly close on everything else.

    6) Adoption. is there any state that doesn’t allow for single parent adoption? (I’m curious)

    7) The Supreme Court will have to get involved eventually, the “Does South Dakota have to accept marriages preformed in Iowa” isn’t going to get decided anywhere else.

    • lapert

      Unless the SC decides that there is no legitimate public policy reason for not allowing same-sex marriage (in which case the question of out of state recognition is moot) there is no reason why they would need to decide a case on recognition. The existence of a public policy exception to the Full Faith and Credit clause is well established. Full Faith and Credit has never been used to force recognition of an out-of-state marriage which violated a states public policy and formed no part of the argument in the cases that ultimately overturned bans on interracial marriage.

    • acat

      is only unpopular now because of the perception that government is either an ally or a suitable tool of the social conservative position.

      Let the Supreme Court find that there’s a right to all the perqs of marriage for gays, and the social conservative position will change… quickly.

      Mew

      • texasref

        and no one doubts his conservative bona fides (inside our borders, anyway; I’m not trying to open the foreign affairs can of worms so please don’t go there).

        • acat

          As much as it nauseates me to say that.

          The trouble is the nonsense in between those points of light renders him completely unacceptable for any office …

          Mew

          • snowshooze

            Oh geeze.. I’m sorry…

          • texasref

            Oh geeze… ***I’M*** sorry…

            …not.

          • snowshooze

            Because all my radio will get is Romney ads.
            Absolute market saturation.
            I don’t think our radio guys are cut out for this.. they are living on beer and pizza, half have lost their voices and haven’t been home for days…
            Boy, when they finally leave the station… they are going to discover it has snowed three feet since they parked. They’ll be stuck. probably won’t be able to vote.
            Well, at least they should have enough money to take a few weeks off. Maybe we will get some music back.

      • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil truth

        What governmental interest is served by government recognizing that two people have decided to enter into a committed relationship (whatever that means)?

        • hobarticus

          In the event one spouse dies without having drafted a will, his or her property defaults to their relatives, rather than their partner, unless the couple is legally married. It’s also in the public interest that dependent spouses aren’t left high and dry (i.e. on government support) if the couple breaks up.

          The inheritance bit is a real problem for gays in long term relationships (my brother, for one). Even if you do put a same-sex partner in a will, that can still be challenged in many states.

  • jermane2020

    Dave,

    You write:
    The Equal Protection arguments are weakened by the very decision of Judge Walker and by the words of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals when they admitted that a

    • davenj1

      In Equal Protection cases, the Court uses three levels of scrutiny. The first is strict scrutiny and involves any classification that involves race, religion, national origin, alienage, or a “fundamental right.” More on the last one shortly.
      The second is rational basis where the state need show only that the challenged classification is rationally related to serving a state interest.
      The third is a middle ground that usually involves cases of gender and illegitimacy. Here, the government needs to show that the challenged classification is rationally related to serving at least a substantial state interest.
      The reason Loving v. Virginia is not a good analogy is because of strict scrutiny analysis since race was involved. Once race enters the picture, strict scrutiny automatically attaches. And the Court correctly found that miscegenation laws served absolutely no legitimate state interest. Also, marriage- or more correctly who to marry- was also considered a “fundamental right” based on a series of cases of the Supreme Court and thus, would have triggered strict scrutiny.
      Gay activists theorize that strict scrutiny should apply in the case of gay marriage since it involves this fundamental right. However, Judge Walker took great pains to note that this “fundamental right” applied to those definitions and views of marriage rooted in our history and traditions, namely heterosexual marriage.
      Hence, strict scrutiny should not apply. Instead, he used the middle ground and determined that the prohibition on gay marriage did not substantially serve a state interest and, therefore, failed the test and had to be ruled unconstitutional. The rulings against Proposition 8 stated, in part, that the opposition to gay marriage was predicated upon stereotypes and appealing to prejudices and absent objective facts to prove the case against gay marriage, a state cannot sanction a law predicated on such factors.
      Now that being said, as the majority of the discussion here illustrates, and the many articles and studies readers are being directed towards regarding the ill or no effects of gays adopting and the plethora of other issues, clearly the jury is still out. There is not overwhelming evidence once way or another. Therefore, it would seem that states should err on the side of caution when redefining “marriage” and go with the traditional definition until such time there is proof one way or the other, or until attitudes so dramatically.
      That is what Justice Ginsburg was getting at in her comments. The gay activist community- not all, but some- are essentially demanding strict scrutiny where it should not exist. However, as she warned, when this is elevated to strict scrutiny, the backlash is inevitable and it tarnishes the Court and weakens the overall argument of the proponents.
      It should be noted that in most cases where the courts have stepped in and ruled that bans on gay marriage are unconstitutional, those constitutional violations were found at the level of the state constitution, not the Federal Constitution. That is why in the case out of Minnesota in 1972 the US Supreme Court, in what was clearly a Equal Protection question based on the merits, stated that there was no “substantial federal question” and dismissed the case.
      That is why I still persist that Proposition 8 will not see the light of day in the US Supreme Court. Instead, if the gay community wanted to somehow establish a national right to gay marriage, the better vehicle would be DOMA, but the Holder refuses to defend DOMA so its a moot point. That is the conundrum that aesthete was talking about earlier with me. The opponents of DOMA won; the supposed defenders of DOMA have thrown in the towel; DOMA is dead. As in California, who then has standing to raise the issue again on appeal? If the state of California will not defend their own ballot initiative having lost in the lower courts, does anyone else have standing to pursue the case further?

    • davenj1

      “Are you saying that an equal protection argument can only apply where there is history and tradition?”

      I am saying that strict scrutiny, under the Equal Protection Clause, can only apply when those specified suspect classifications (race, religion, etc.) OR a fundamental right is involved.

      In order to determine a “fundamental right,” the Court rightly looks to tradition and history. In the context of marriage, that right applies specifically to heterosexual marriage.

      • jermane2020

        …that you seem to neglect that you are making an arguably arbitrary or subjective choice regarding the type and level of abstraction — meaning how broad a category we reference.

        You say that, although the constitution provided no right to interracial marriage, it was nevertheless unconstitutional to deny interracial couples access to civil marriage because there was a history and tradition of heterosexual marriage, of which interracial heterosexual marriage would be a subset.

        Well, that’s just one type and level of abstraction. Someone could just as easily say that, although the constitution provided no right to same-sex marriage, it is nevertheless unconstitutional to deny same-sex couples access to civil marriage because there is a history and tradition of marriage, of which same-sex marriage would be a subset.

        • davenj1

          In Loving v. Virginia, the triggering mechanism was the racial classification for strict scrutiny. Marriage was merely the underlying context. Absent the racial classification, the courts use the intermediary standard of scrutiny unless a fundamental right is involved.
          One can ague that marriage is a fundamental right, but then one needs to define the parameters of the fundamental right and for that, the courts look to history and tradition. How can you carve out a fundamental right when there is no history or tradition of gay marriage without resorting to the same stretching the Court used in Roe v. Wade? Even the very liberal Ninth Circuit and the lower district court acknowledged this fact in the Proposition 8 case.
          I understand your point and it seems counterintuitive that a court would decide this way. However, Equal Protection Clause jurisprudence and the often confusion in this intermediary classification of scrutiny is wha creates these gray areas and gay marriage is a gray area.
          The interest of the state must be substantial in order to overcome the level of scrutiny. In the case of marriage in general, that interest is family stability, child rearing and procreation. I am not saying that a gay “family” cannot be stable, nor adequately rear children. They may even “procreate” through artificial insemination and surrogates. I am merely stating that the state of the law today dictates that the intermediary level of scrutiny applies to the case of gay marriage and, in fact, gay rights in general. Is it correct? I don’t know, but I do know that a Proposition 8 challenge before the Supreme Court is not going to happen and, in fact, is not a good vehicle for challenge.

          • jermane2020

            You said:
            strict scrutiny, under the Equal Protection Clause, can only apply when those specified suspect classifications (race, religion, etc.) OR a fundamental right is involved.

            In order to determine a

          • jermane2020

            You write:
            One can ague that marriage is a fundamental right, but then one needs to define the parameters of the fundamental right and for that, the courts look to history and tradition. How can you carve out a fundamental right when there is no history or tradition of gay marriage…

            Your argument was that the history and tradition of heterosexual marriage was the basis for concluding that there was a right to interracial marriage. You didn’t say a history and tradition of interracial marriage was necessary to prove for a fundamental right to be seen as an extension of the fundamental right to marriage generally. Would you say that if (hypothetically) there were no history and tradition of interracial marriage, that the fundamental right of marriage would no longer apply, meaning it would not be a legitimate argument for a right to interracial marriage and against anti-misceganation laws on constitutional grounds?

          • aesthete

            Your argument presupposes some essentialist, bare-bones definition of marriage which includes gays for the legal purposes of establishing a right to the marriage contract, but excludes, say, roommates, live-in couples, incestuous couples, etc. Who’s to say that roommates and incestuous pairings are not, in fact, a subset of the category “marriage”, and that they too are being deprived of their rights? Well the obvious answer is you and yours — and for that matter, them and theirs, of the traditional marriage tribe! Less obvious is why your somewhat arbitrary line-drawing (to include gay+traditional marriage, and no one else) is any more valid than *their* somewhat arbitrary line-drawing, when it comes to saying, “This is marriage — throw anything else out of the definition, and we’re talking about something else.” Moreover, they have tradition, the majority, and some rational basis (even if you don’t agree with it) for maintaining the status quo in the marriage contract.

            There is nothing in the American legal tradition which lends credence to the definition that pro-gay marriage folks have provided. No one in 1800s America was stating that the definition of marriage was between one white man and one white woman: all parties in the anti-miscegenation case agreed to a definition of marriage which included whites and non-whites; the basis for the laws restricting interracial marriage was to restrict a marriage that lawmakers saw as undesirable, rather than a category error. That is not the case with current laws, which supporters state need to be established because “gay marriage” is a category error — i.e., that the definition of marriage itself is not satisfied by the arrangements

            The most essentialist definition of marriage, from a legal point of view, is “two (count ‘em!) long-term roommates who have habitual sex”. As I allude to above, this includes several groups which most people on either side of the gay marriage debate don’t want to include in the marriage contract. The truth is, marriage as an institution immediately presupposes barriers to entry, perhaps even arbitrary ones. That is a feature, not a bug — and supporters would say, is a necessary component in furthering the government interests which are advanced by marriage as a contract.

          • JSobieski

            marriage is simply a status between two people based on their consent—parent/child, sibling/sibling, roommate/roommate, etc.

            Once this door is opened, there is no logical basis to stop prior to a wide open relationship not premised on a romantic relationship or any type of exclusivity.

            Just as the Netherlands took the lead on same sex marriage, it also took the lead on polygamy. See http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/301

            Once you can have non-exclusive marriages, there is every reason given the rights associated with marriage for people to “marry” an elderly parent, a roommate, a sibling, etc.

            Between here and the absurd there is no backstop.

          • JSobieski

            http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090423130650AA0J9Br

          • JSobieski

            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/05/07/threesome-marriages.html

            First came traditional marriage. Then, gay marriage. Now, there’s a movement combining both

          • snowshooze

            Now healthy families, that is a worthy investment. More Citizens, community members, taxpayers and contributors to society.
            The queers… what is the point in coddling them?
            So they can marry a confused teenager out from their families roof for a car and the good life?
            Give them monetary breaks in taxes and status for doing what???
            No.. nothing for them. Marriage is a different business.

          • Jack_Savage

            And the rock solid truth. I think I will bookmark it.

            “Between here and the absurd there is no backstop.” Perfectly stated.

            As I have said before, if marriage is everything, it is nothing. And that is the whole point of the other side.

          • JSobieski

            nt

          • jermane2020

            First, I still want a reply from Davenj1 to my comment and questions to him.

            As for your comment:

            I

          • aesthete

            you started commenting on this thread by stating that strict scrutiny as in Loving is a more appropriate tool than rational basis in ascertaining the Constitutionality of a marriage ban. If your purpose here is to play devil’s advocate, or to pose a set of Socratic questions without revealing your own position in any detail, then by all means feel free to ignore my post.

            If, OTOH, your position is that a) marriage is a fundamental right, and that b) its essential legal definition is such that it includes within its set homosexual pairings… then you have to define marriage in a way that is acceptable to all parties. (I also think that you and others should have to explicitly point out where in the Constitution there is a right to marriage, as with any other legal right, but that view isn’t very popular around these or most any parts parts.) Loving, from a legal standpoint, did not center around whether Mr and Mrs Loving belonged to the set, “married”. Both plaintiff and defendant agreed on that point. It questioned the reasonableness of racial characteristics in a case which involved jail time and deprivation of liberty. It is not as legally analogous to the current situation as gay marriage proponents make it out to be.

            Speaking for myself, I don’t favor government involvement in marriage and am more open to arrangements wherein civil unions are granted to any long-term pairing (including non-sexual pairings) — I am simply pointing out that there is plenty of reason to believe that an amendment upholding so-called traditional marriage would be upheld using a rational basis, and perhaps even an intermediate scrutiny test. I see no reason why a strict scrutiny test (only applied in a handful of cases) would be applied, or considered desirable from the point of view of conservative jurisprudence.

          • jermane2020

            No, you don’t recall correctly. I didn’t make any argument (at least not knowingly) re: whether or not strict scrutiny is a more appropriate standard than rational basis. I’m not very familiar with either, so I wouldn’t put it in those terms except perhaps by implication. I just Googled them, and perhaps you read such a position into my use of the word “compelling” when I wrote in my initial comment:
            Equal protection, after all, is not about which other particular rights are or are not specified or implied in the constitution, but rather about

          • aesthete

            Disparate treatment under the law, unless a Constitutional right is in play, is generally evaluated using the rational basis test — which merely establishes that there must be some legitimate purpose of government that could be achieved through “”. Evaluating whether it’s a “rational and darn good reason” is more akin to intermediate scrutiny. Strict scrutiny (the most stringent of tests) requires that the law in question not only be “rational and darn good”, but that it can be proven that the law is accomplishing its purpose, and that it is narrowly constructed for that purpose. Strict scrutiny is almost always reserved for Constitutional rights, and intermediate scrutiny is not used very often, either.

            Methinks the problem here is that both of us were talking past one another — I was strictly speaking to the legal aspects (I’m not a lawyer, but I play one on TV :) ), and you were speaking normatively, which is perfectly fine of course. Feel free to ignore my commentary above.

          • jermane2020

            I was just using my own language, not legalese. I’m not a lawyer either (obviously) and I wasn’t really familiar with even the basic particulars of different levels of scrutiny.

            Having looked them up though, I have now refined my questions to Davenj1 to ask about strict scrutiny. But please hold off from replying to my questions to him. I really want to get his responses with regard to his reasoning.

            Thanks for the explanation re: different levels of scrutiny. I do find it a bit troubling, though, that some particular groups are specified for strict scrutiny and others therefore excluded (unless there is a fundamental right in question). For example, if a state had a law that all state jobs could only go to natural brunettes, assuming (for the sake of argument) that a race-related argument can’t be made), why would strict scrutiny be less appropriate? I guess it’s based on the practical observation of past (or current) discrimination, but wouldn’t some new form of discrimination be just as worthy of the same level of scrutiny?

            My unfamiliarity with this matter (levels of scrutiny) and the history of their creation is showing, I’m sure. But my gut reaction is to wonder why those bases of disparate treatment (those classifications) specified for strict scrutiny are more deserving of a higher level of scrutiny to ensure equal protection than are other groups. Is it just the SC’s best effort to accommodate practical matters — i.e., that history has shown that without a higher standard to protect those specific groups, there is a relatively high chance of denial of equal protection via some pretext that would pass a lower level of scrutiny?

          • davenj1

            was that in the case of Loving, the triggering mechanism for strict scrutiny of the law in question was the racial classification, not the “right to marry.” Marriage was merely the context. t could have been employment or college admissions or a host of other contexts. Those are the facts in Loving v. Virginia. The Supreme Court never addressed the subject of the “fundamental right” to marry, as others have noted (whom I am now accused of stealing their thoughts even though they are merely restating the argument in perhaps more explainable terms), neither party in that case, the Lovings or the state of Virginia, pressed that issue.

            As to the hypothetical, it isn’t a hypothetical at all. There is no history or tradition of interracial marriage. There were cases of interracial marriage, of course, which is why there were miscegenation laws in the first place. But the institution of marriage in general is certainly rooted in our history and traditions and as the District Court and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals noted, that history and tradition is of heterosexual marriage. Which is why (again!) the judge in that case did NOT apply strict scrutiny, but the intermediary test which states: there must be a rational basis for the law or restriction that serves a substantial state interest. The substantial state interest in this instance is the stability of the family, child-rearing and procreation- the three biggest reasons marriage (in general, not interracial or gay or whatever) exists.

            Still, even using this lower level of scrutiny, the court decided that the restriction on gay marriage failed to adequately address these substantial state interests mainly because, the court decided, it was predicated upon misperceptions, prejudices and stereotypes. Therefore, it would fail even the “rational basis” test. And that was determined from the trial record and testimony which is what the judge must properly do. That is also why the appellate court upheld the decision. The judge did his job and did it as he should. That being said, one of the biggest complaints at the appellate level was an attempt to have the lower court ruling set aside since the judge in question is gay. When I first read the decision (yes, I do that), I wrote an article here in support of the decision and the line of reasoning and took hell for it.

            Getting back to the original purpose of this diary entry, it was a prediction as to whether the Supreme Court would take this case on appeal. I stated they would not for several reasons. First, there is no “substantial federal question” here. The court’s decision and reasoning precludes strict scrutiny. Second, Ginsburg’s statements that seem to warn the Court away from jumping into the fray. Third, an issue of standing- who is to represent/defend Proposition 8 since the state itself refuses to defend it? That is, who represents the state here? Are people, anyone in general, allowed to represent the state?

          • jermane2020

            As I mentioned, I was hoping I wasn

          • davenj1

            First, let me apologize for your cutting and pasting and such. I am not a computer whiz and even though I think I am using the “Reply to this” tab, well maybe I’m not. So, I do apologize.

            Question 1: Strict scrutiny applies to any law or state action where a suspect classification (race, ethnicity, religion, etc) is involved where one “group” is treated differently from another. Strict scrutiny also applies to any governmental action/law where a recognized fundamental right is involved. So, yes.

            Question 2: Yes, to determine a “fundamentalism” of a right, the courts look to history and tradition. For example, you will not find a right to privacy listed in the Bill of Rights, or in the text of the Constitution. However, one can make inferences of that right from some things that are there- the Fourth Amendment’s search and seizure clause, the Fifth Amendment’s clause regarding self-incrimination, the Quartering of Soldiers, etc.

            Question 3: Yes and no. A string of Supreme Court cases have recognized that marriage and child rearing are fundamental rights. There is no fundamental right to the subset. Again, the triggering mechanism was not the fundamental right, but the suspect classification involved. Even so, among these subsets, and this is something often overlooked with strict scrutiny, the “restriction” could survive constitutional muster. Example: every state has bans on biological brothers and sisters marrying/incest laws for a a very good reason. There is ample biological evidence that the progeny of such relationships can create genetic abnormalities. Well, at least the chances are greatly increased. Hence, it not a necessarily “everything goes/all subsets” get blanket approval because it involves a “fundamental right.”

            Question 4: One could argue, using your line of reasoning (which, incidentally makes perfect commonsense), that there is this de facto right to interracial marriage.

            Question 5: Again, see #3 above. However, in the current context of this diary entry, after again reading Judge Walker’s original decision, he did, in fact, apply strict scrutiny. He did not find a fundamental right to gay marriage in the record. He did, however, find that the definition of marriage was not as set in stone as many state. And he listed examples of how marriage laws changed over the years in California based on changing circumstances. For example, there were bans on slaves marrying (they were property), on interracial marriage, the rule over coverture was written out of the law (that is where the woman’s identity and economic liberty is subsumed by the husband upon marriage), the belief that all males were automatically the “head of the household,” and the fact that no-fault divorce laws changed the roles of those in a marriage. However, Walker then applied the rational basis scrutiny to the ban on gay marriage and found it could not stand to that lower level of scrutiny either. Hence, there was no need, legally, to apply strict scrutiny. Still, I understand your reasoning and logic and train of thought.

            #6: The delineations are quite arbitrary as to the suspect classifications. Why a person’s skin color and not their gender affords greater protection, in terms of scrutiny, is probably attributable to other legislation like the Civil Rights Act and such. Aesthete wrote that the intermediary approach is seldom used. That is not 100% correct since the courts, who receive guidance from the Supreme Court, use the intermediary almost exclusively for gender issues. Again, I would have to research why the line-drawing here. However, in the hypothetical abstraction you state, it is conceivable that strict scrutiny may very well apply. But, since the law failed using a lower level of scrutiny, the Supreme Court, should they hear the case, would have to be very much convinced by the appellant that the wrong level of scrutiny was applied. Having lost under the intermediary (even rational basis test), the proponents of proposition 8 would be stupid to insist on strict scrutiny. So from the practical standpoint, its a moot point. Walker precluded the argument in his decision. But, given your hypothetical, it is possible that some case may come along where strict scrutiny would be applied and that a right to same sex marriage- being in your words a subset- would be recognized. In fact, I believe that a challenge in support of DOMA, which was struck down by the lower courts, could possibly be that vehicle. However, since Holder will not defend DOMA in an appeal (its a federal law, its his job), again the point is moot.

            #7: No court would even start at strict scrutiny in such a case. The law would be struck down on the rational basis test. If it fails at the lowest level, there is no need to go up the hierarchy of scrutiny. A court is not going to start the analysis at the level of strict scrutiny. On appeal, the losing party may petition the higher court to do just that. But they are not apt to do so if the reasoning for the lower level of scrutiny is without error. And that is exactly what the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals decided (among many side issues).

            I understand, again, your logic and I think where we are talking past one another has to do with nuances of the appellate process. The opponents of Proposition 8 (I believe it was a lesbian couple and the City of San Francisco, among others) won. The “winners” cannot appeal a victory and say, “Whoa! We want more. It is great we won our case here, even on appeal, but the judges didn’t go far enough. We want this particular subset of marriage declared a fundamental right because we have been discriminated against in the past and specifically here.” And as part of that “talking past one another,” that is sort of like the Loving case. The Court there found no need to address the “subset” question. In fact, it was not even a question. In the decision, they specifically stated they “need not address that issue.” But lets just assume the winners of the case are stupid with a very activist agenda and they pursue it to the Supreme Court. It takes 4 out of 9 to grant cert and hear the case. It is doubtful you would get a single vote from the conservative wing and Ginsburg’s statements lead one to believe that she would not grant cert. That would leave 3- Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan. But lets say Kennedy or someone has a brain fart and grants cert so they hear the case. They are going to preclude strict scrutiny since it is a gender case UNLESS the Court is willing to over rule decades of precedent and I doubt that very much. Even still, they are going to likely stop at the intermediary approach and the lower court decisions would be upheld since it is pretty airtight.

            That being said, the losers may appeal on some other grounds like the Ninth or Tenth Amendments. Namely, they can say that states have traditionally regulated the parameters or definitions or requirements of marriage and that the federal courts have no right interfering in what should be a state issue. But, the Court is just going to say, “yes, but a fundamental right is involved here and they have the obligation to intercede. Having said that, we are not going to decide the merits of the case, only that your 9th and 10th Amendment arguments hold no weight.” In such a case, they do not even have to reach into the “subsets” and apply scrutiny since the question would not even involve that. They are not going to go outside the questions presented all willy-nilly.

  • davenj1

    aesthete states it rather nicely., the difference between Loving and gay marriage arguments. In fact, they get into the slippery slope argument often used against gay marriage. Sort of….

    • jermane2020

      I think it’s unfortunate that aesthete replied in your place and you have adopted his answer as yours. I don’t see how my point/question has been addressed, and as far as I can tell, you’ve just shifted to a different argument (the one provide by aesthete).

      I asked you about YOUR reasoning. Please see the comment and questions I addressed to you, and I’d appreciate it if you’d address them. I’d rather not have to start copying & pasting what I don’t think you are addressing. I think it’s very clear.

      • jermane2020

        Please reply upthread using the “Reply To This” button, replying to my comment (addressed to you at http://www.redstate.com/davenj1/2012/03/04/in-the-pipeline-gay-marriage/#comment-922 ) so we keep the flow of arguments, questions and answers clear.

  • http://www.rqsulfates.com zincsulfate

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    • Ann_W

      nt