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If DOMA Survives, Then What?

Working on the assumption that Section 3 of DOMA survives before the Supreme Court because the Court will determine it satisfies rational basis scrutiny, what then? Obviously, Section 3- the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman for federal purposes- is the framework as concerns the federal government that holds together the remainder of the law. As stated in previous entries, during the original legislative debate, proponents of the law insisted that nothing in the law prohibited any state, like Massachusetts, from recognizing and performing same sex marriages. Also during that debate, Rep. Pat Schroeder and Sen. Ted Kennedy advanced the argument that the law would lead to discrimination against homosexuals and that the law was simply codifying a persistent prejudice against the LGBT community. Kennedy, in fact, introduced corollary legislation to avoid discrimination, but that effort was rejected.

Is DOMA, and are gay marriage laws, discriminatory against the LGBT community? As stated previously, most laws create classifications that work to the disadvantage of some that can be described as being discriminatory to some extent. That is simply the nature of the beast. However, where it becomes a constitutional problem is when a suspect class is involved (homosexuals are not) and/or whether a fundamental right is involved (marriage is a fundamental right/same-sex marriage is not). Some may believe that this last part- the part about a fundamental right- is legal hair-splitting. They adopt the belief that “marriage is marriage is marriage.” However, recall that the Court looks to our Nation’s history and traditions in order determine whether the “right” is fundamental and NOWHERE, until quite recently, is there a history or tradition of same sex-marriage.

Granted, some traditions break down over time. What may have been the norm in the 1800s in certainly not the “norm” today. But, given the push-back against the LGBT community, obviously the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman does not fall in that category. Recall that a majority of states have a constitutional provision or law defining marriage as between a man and a woman. Some have argued that if gay marriage was to be ruled a fundamental right, it would lead to the slippery slope where anything goes regarding marriage. This leads to ridiculous charges that laws against incestuous marriages, those involving minors, or even against bestiality would have to fall. Those irrational fears could be addressed by defining marriage, in the same-sex context, as being between two consenting adult (by state definition) humans regardless of gender who are unrelated (by state definition).

So, if Section 3 is upheld, or even later legislatively amended to expand the definition of marriage at the federal level (the preferred method), what about Section 2? This section states that if a same-sex marriage is recognized in one state, then another state that does not recognize gay marriage is under no obligation to recognize that marriage within their borders. There is no doubt in this writer’s mind that should the Obama Administration and the LGBT community not prevail on the Section 3 question, they will then attack DOMA under Section 2. There are two very good reason they haven’t. First, they realize that Section 3 is the underpinning that holds together the entire law. Strike it down and you win the war in one fell swoop. Secondly, Section 2 would have to be attacked under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the US Constitution and here, they have Supreme Court precedent against their arguments.

In 1979, the Supreme Court, in the case of Nevada v. Hall, stated that the Full Faith and Credit Clause did not apply to federal laws and DOMA is a federal law. However, it does touch upon relations between the states and whether the law in one state must be recognized in another state. In that decision, the Court stated: “…the Full Faith and Credit Clause does not enable one state to legislate for the other or to protect its laws across state lines so as to preclude the other from prescribing for itself the legal consequences of acts within it.” Furthermore, they said: “The Full Faith and Credit Clause does not require a state to apply another state’s law in violation of its own legitimate public policy.” These are very strong, clear words from the United States Supreme Court. Think of this analogy: Pennsylvania’s deer season runs from November 1 to December 31 while neighboring New Jersey’s runs from November 1 to December 10. On December 12, two hunters from Pennsylvania pursue a deer into New Jersey and kill it. Simply because they are Pennsylvania hunters (even in pursuit of a Pennsylvania deer) does not make them immune to prosecution under New Jersey’s hunting laws.

Obviously, if a gay couple is married in Massachusetts, there is no constitutional requirement whatsoever under the Full Faith and Credit Clause that that marriage need be recognized in Alabama, or any other state that does not recognize gay marriage. Equally important as concerns DOMA, nowhere does it state that Alabama is precluded from recognizing that marriage. Although they may not allow same sex marriage within their borders, they are free to recognize OR not recognize that marriage performed in another state.

At the Federal level, the Congress can amend DOMA with regards to federal law and benefits. For example, the federal benefits bestowed upon the married couple would be portable across state lines regardless of the recognition of marriage in a particular state. However, the recognition of that marriage as concerns state benefits could legally be denied under state laws. In other words, the federal government could conceivably recognize same-sex marriages in states where it is currently allowed, but individual states need not recognize those marriages. This bifurcated method of recognition would certainly avoid any state’s rights issues. It would further move the debate out of the courts and into the Congress where it rightfully belongs. If, as the LGBT community asserts, this is this century’s civil rights issue and that attitudes towards gay marriage in particular and homosexuality in general have changed so dramatically, let them make that case in the legislative process and change DOMA accordingly. If, those changes are so dramatic as they claim, let them make their case state-by-state and change the marriage laws in those states. Most interesting in this case is an amicus brief filed with a litany of major corporations who argue that DOMA, in fact, is a severe regulatory and administrative burden on them. That is, they have to calculate benefits separately and taxes have to be computed on a bifurcated basis. Senator John Cornyn (R-TX) and Sen. Grassley (R-IA) have asserted that repeal of DOMA or a court striking it down would lead to additional outlays in social security payments and decrease tax revenue. This is somewhat disingenuous given the purported current regulatory costs. More importantly, same sex couples pay into social security and Medicare, yet cannot receive benefits married heterosexual receive. That infers, if not cries out, a fairness problem. Additionally, most CBO estimates are that a repeal of DOMA would be basically neutral with an actual $1 billion gain to the Treasury over 10 years (assuming all 50 states recognized gay marriage). Hence, the cost considerations of repeal are negligible and a distraction.

Speaking of tradition, the definition of marriage has always laid with the states. Of course, marital status has federal implications- over 1,300 by last count. Yet, the federal government, for practical purposes, recognizes the state definitions. If, tomorrow a state passes a law allowing brother-sister marriage after considered legislative consideration and debate, in the absence of a federal law to the contrary, the federal government would recognize that marriage for federal purposes. Hence, the federal government can, if they so choose, recognize same-sex marriage and amend DOMA accordingly.

From a personal standpoint, I have always argued that homosexual couples can, through existing laws involving bankruptcy, intestacy and contract law among others, achieve the advantages they cite as lacking absent marriage. In only one instance can I find a significant objection- the Fifth Amendment’s protection of self-incrimination. Namely, one spouse cannot be compelled to testify against the other and only “marriage” defines the spousal relationship. But certainly somewhere there is someone with a good legal brain to get around that conundrum. Further, I know several gay couples who have been in long-term relationships; one couple has two adopted children and some heterosexual-couple families I know should use them as a template on how to raise children in a loving, supportive home. But equally important, it needs to be noted that this couple actually adopted these children in the absence of a marriage license. It needs to be noted that these other gay couples in long-term relationships stay in them in the absence of a marriage license. They are not doing so holding out hope that their state will allow gay marriage; that is not their motivation.

From these personal stories and my research, I am left with the belief that the gay marriage agenda is being pushed by a small, radical subset of the gay community. Most of the gay people I know have the attitude regarding gay marriage as “Hey- it would be great, but it is not going to change my life.” Do we overturn, given the fact that homosexuals are not a suspect class and that same sex marriage is not a fundamental right, not 200+ years of American tradition, but centuries predating American history of the traditional definition of marriage to appease a subset of a subset of the American population?

In the last installment of this series, I will tackle the issue of Proposition 8 which addresses a whole separate set of issues. Suffice to say at this point, as the case winds through the Ninth Circuit, the constitutional issues have been contracted and narrowed. For that reason, any ruling there will be less dramatic and potentially landmark than a decision regarding Section 3 of DOMA.

COMMENTS

  • Victor_Purinton

    … like a journey of discovery. And I think in the end you will find yourself agreeing that denial of marriage to gays is unfair and cannot be justified.

    • PowerToThePeople

      keeping marriage defined between a man and a woman does not treat the gay community unfairly and it can and has been justified.

      • Victor_Purinton

        … but let me try:

        “keeping marriage defined between a man and a woman does not treat the gay community unfairly”

        YES IT DOES!

        “and it can and has been justified”

        NO IT HASN’T!

        • PowerToThePeople

          since you seem to be a radical gay apologist, we have been over this issue time after time after time and I have no desire to go over it again.

          Not allowing a gay couple to invade the tradition of marriage does nothing to treat them unfairly and yes bub, it is justified. If you want to see my and many others arguments on this subject, use your fingers to google it.

          I have no interest in discussing this further with someone interested in attacking traditional marriage. I find people who do that to be scum of the earth and not worth a minute of my time. So have a good one their bub.

          • zachv

            You want to be pro-family, pro-child and pro-marriage?

            Good. Start advocating for gay marriage.

          • PowerToThePeople

            and yet another post from you that compels us to recognize the sheer stupidity of the movement.

            Try again…………….

          • Jack_Savage

            .

          • PowerToThePeople

            he just wanted to play a bleeding heart card that has no affect on people other than other bleeding hearts.

        • avgjo

          Further, ‘gays’ have the right to marriage. If they choose, they can enter into a union with someone of the opposite sex, at anytime they want. The problem is they are trying to change what ‘marriage’ means. And they’re using the tactics of the left – legislative tricks, judicial activism and intimidation – to do it.

        • APA Guy

          You may WISH for anything you like, but what you may NOT do is change the definition of the bedrock institution that has provided stability to our society since its inception.

          Same-sex couples may have legal civil unions and all the protections and rights they afford. If you want to dig in on this, go right ahead. You’ll be wrong if you do, but it’s your privilege to be wrong as often as you like.

          • acat

            Had marriage remained purely a church or cultural thing, I’d agree with you.

            As government inserted itself into the church .. back in the dark ages .. government now has a parallel world for which it may rewrite the definition, if enough of the governed wish it to do so.

            Eventually, I expect we’ll decide to split the government-component into a different term, civil unions perhaps, and leave the church and the culture to re-evaluate what marriage means.

            Mew

          • APA Guy

            …and gay marriages would presumably be invalidated nation-wide.

            But it would open the door for same-sex civil unions to emerge, would it not? There would be no need for a government/cultural/religious split after that. Gays would form civil unions, heterosexuals would marry.

            Simple…fair…and the legal protections could be virtually similar, placing such an arrangement on solid constitutional ground.

          • acat

            Do you really think SCOTUS upholding DOMA is going to be the end of the argument?

            I find that .. unlikely.

            Mew

          • APA Guy

            Even so, upholding the constitutionality of a federal law defining marriage as being between one man and one women will be crippling to any future gay marriage efforts.

            If gay marriage hopefuls want to draw a line in the sand, they are always welcome to do so. They risk legal protections and benefits that could accompany civil union status, but that’s their right. I don’t see nationwide recognition of gay marriage unless the Supreme Court makes that unbelievable leap and makes law on the bench.

          • lapert

            Why would marriages be invalidated nation-wide? You aren’t suggesting that upholding DOMA would allow the federal government to invalidate marriages in states where those marriages are legal are you? Because that would be a good way to sink this case.

          • exitsfunnel

            This would be my preferred solution to all of this as well. Any two adults should be able to enter into civil unions which offer all of the same advantages / protections that civil marriage does currently. It would then be up to individual churches to decide to whom they wanted to grant the ‘sacrament’ of marriage.

            I disagree though about this being a likely outcome. In fact, I think that it is a nearly impossible outcome.

            -exits

          • darrenperkins

            Hopefully no one is surprised that there are homosexuals who want to pull this country hard to the right (like me). Why? I am an Ayn Rand nut who is a radical zealot for individualism and I believe in the inherent goodness of capitalism. Unlike Rand, however, I do believe in God.

            If we are right-wingers, conservatives, Republicans then we ascribe to the concept of the free market. What is a free market? It’s not the mongrel mixed one we have now. It’s a market of laissez-faire capitalism. Laissez-faire can be translated from French as “let it be”. Don’t intrude in the market; let it be free and it will do what is best.

            There is no “laissez-faire” in forced engineering of any kind — whether it be economic or social. You can’t redefine an institution that has existed for centuries because a homosexual couple want to call it “marriage”. To think otherwise is preposterous. It’s a futile, petty effort and I’m alarmed by all the wild emotion I see and the lack of any logical thinking.

            I do want to say, however, that studies have shown — and I do agree — that a child is far better growing up in a household with two men or two women instead of just one man or just one woman. One man and one woman is ideal, yes. It isn’t always a possibility, however.

    • davenj1

      of discovery. I can separate the personal/anecdotal from the legal/constitutional. This series addresses the latter. If gay marriage was to be placed on the ballot before me tomorrow, I know how I would vote. What bothers me is that people are being denied that opportunity.

      • Victor_Purinton

        .. that some things are not decided by popular vote in our society. Gay marriage harms nobody; it’s denial harms millions of Americans.

        It is unconstitutional to prevent a convicted murderer from marrying. It is unconstitutional to prevent a 90 year old man and woman (who will never procreate) from marrying. And yet we can, with a wave of the hand, say to gay men and women everywhere, “you can’t get married because …”

        It will all be moot soon. And it’s good that you are studying the relevant legal considerations: it will make it easier for you to accept the inevitable Supreme Court decision that denial of marriage to gays is unconstitutional. Republicans should not cling to this issue: it’s a loser.

        • westcoastpatriette

          no one is telling homosexuals they cannot get married. They must follow the law when doing so, and they may not change the definition of marriage so as to pervert its fundamental meaning. And that is completely constitutional and in keeping with the laws of Nature and of Nature’s God.

          • tnfriendofcoal101368

            When the 9th circuit’s decision reaches SCOTUS, I believe it will be upheld. I do think Justice Roberts will try to limit the scope of the decision;I do not think he will be successful. Justice Kennedy will join with 4 liberals on this one (this is my speculation but I do believe he will see it as an extra constitutional invasion of individual rights). Note: I don’t agree with him; but I believe that is how he will rule and the 4 liberals will agree with him. Justice Kennedy as the senior judge from the prevailing side will take the opinion and it will be large and sweeping. The only hope is to get Romney elected and hope, Kennedy or Ginsberg quit before the 9th circuit decision gets to SCOTUS.

          • thethinman

            Earlier this year, Newt Gingrich called for the complete abolition of the Ninth Circuit Court. Gingrich was speaking to the annual gathering of the Conservative Political Action Conference at the time. Referring to an action by President Thomas Jefferson, Gingrich said the

          • Victor_Purinton

            … of the Moon, he can do whatever he wants.

        • davenj1

          To reiterate, even in cases where gay marriage bans were struck down, the judiciary admits that the Supreme Court has never considered homosexuals a suspect class thus triggering strict scrutiny of the law in question. In fact, there are decisions saying they are not even a “semi” or “quasi” suspect class.

          Therefore, you are left with two options. First, you could could say that the right to same sex marriage is a fundamental constitutional right- one of those rights unenumerated in the Bill of Rights retained by the people or the states. To become fundamental, the Court looks to history and traditions. Where is there a history of same sex marriage in America? Where is there a tradition of gay marriage in America? There aren’t!!! There is a history and a tradition of defining marriage as between a man and a woman as there has been for centuries prior to this Nation’s founding.

          The other way to get around this conundrum, failing the first two options, is to create a new level of scrutiny. That is precisely what the First Circuit did- create a heightened level of rational basis analysis. No other Circuit adopts this level of scrutiny. In fact, they worded it to become outcome determinative in order to justify striking Section 3 of DOMA. That, to me, is a big red flag that the (1) the court here had an agenda to start with and (2) this is a rogue court. The Supreme Court, to the best of my knowledge, frowns upon rogue courts. In fact, in the aftermath of Bush v. Gore, one Justice (Kennedy) noted that decision was largely predicated upon reigning in a rogue court.

          As WCP notes, don’t get your hopes up just yet. It seems like a simple straight line from point A to point B and allowing gay marriage. Unless you totally reinterpret precedents like Romer or Lawrence, the line is considerably less straight (pardon the pun).

        • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

          to our Bibles or guns, either. The SCOTUS may very well rule in favor of legalizing SSM, however, that in no way changes the fact that God performed the first marriage ceremony between a man and a woman. Such a ruling doesn’t make it right or acceptable any more than Roe v. Wade makes it acceptable to kill unborn babies in the womb.

          My principles are rooted in God’s instructions, and my freedoms come from God, not the government, and no legal ruling, coaxing, pleading, or liberal whine of intolerance are going to change my beliefs or make me accept otherwise.

          You might want to take a look at a new study on the effects of same sex parents on children. Not quite as harmless as liberals would have us believe. Here’s a link:

          Study

          • Victor_Purinton

            I don’t know if you’re aware, but the study has been thoroughly discredited and Regnerus is being investigated for scientific misconduct by the University of Texas.

            So, still no evidence that being raised in a gay household is bad for kids.

          • Jack_Savage

            And would have done so on the witness stand if he was needed.

          • Victor_Purinton

            Second, Sandusky is not gay.
            Third, one piece of data is irrelevant when talking about statistics
            Four, children living in a mom/dad household are molested all the time.
            Five,

          • PowerToThePeople

            that when a man has sex with another man, even a young boy, they are gay right?

            Funny so many people tend to miss that fact about men who molest boys.

          • Victor_Purinton

            .. he is not gay. Pedophiles are often attracted to boys because of the boys’ feminine characteristics: small, hairless, not heavily muscled, etc.

          • PowerToThePeople

            did not know wanting only certain penises dictated a persons homosexuality. One would think if a straight pedo wanted young feminine characteristics, they would molest a young female.

            He was a boy loving gay man, but nice try.

          • Victor_Purinton

            … are sexually attracted to grown men. Make of that what you will.

          • PowerToThePeople

            you are trying to argue a position that can not be argued. It is sort of like a person who sleeps with animals claiming because he sleeps with puppies he does not like dogs.

            I believe each and every pedo should be shot like a dog in the public square regardless of what sex he or she chooses. But to claim that with the abundance of children in this country that a pedo who sleeps with boys is not gay is so absurd it is not even funny. I could care less whether they like grown men or not, they chose to molest boys making them a pedo gay man. If they molested girls, they are a pedo straight man. The pedos who molest young girls also have no attraction to older woman, does that mean if we follow your train of thought that since they have no attraction to grown women they are gay? Get out of here with that ignorant argument.

            You should really stop while you are ahead and have a bit of self respect left.

          • avgjo

            to m ake up definitions as you go to suit your arguments.

            ‘Homo-sexual’ = ‘same -sex’

            Pedophile priests – same sex – male priests molesting minor male victims. That’s same sex predation.

            John Wayne Gacy – same sex – male raping minor male victims and then murdering them.

            Jeffrey Dahmer – same sex – male raping minor male victims and then murdering and cannibalizing them.

            Jerry Sandusky – same sex – male raping minor male victims.

            Allen Ginsburg – same sex – GAY RIGHTS advocate, member and defender of NAMBLA.

            Harry Hay – same sex – GAY RIGHTS advocate, defender of NAMBLA

            ILGA – International Lesbian and Gay Association – had NAMBLA and MARTIJN, two avowed pedophile groups as members until 1994. The only reason they stopped was because their charter status as a UN NGO was threatened, thanks to Jessie Helms making an issue of funding. In 2002, ILGA tried to get that status again, and was again rebuffed by UN because of concerns it had not purged pedophile groups from its membersship.

            The 1972 Gay Rights Platform included as item 7 of it state level ‘reforms’

            ‘Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent.’

            There is also well documented evidence that ‘gay’ literature ‘explores’ ‘intergenerational relationships’. Look up Mary Eberstadt’s article from Weekly Standard for how this is everywhere.

            One that jumped out at me was the Village Voice, which in an article called ‘I hate older men’, had this very interesting quote:

            ‘Gay fiction is rich with idyllic accounts of ‘intergenerational relationships,’ as such affairs are respectfully called these days..’

            It was written by a ‘gay’ guy.

          • wintermute

            I mean, if thats proof of something?

          • avgjo

            It’s just interesting that so many of the high profile, famous cases are homosexual-perpetrated, when that’s not supposed to happen, as the gay apologists tell it.

            But really, is that all you got in the way of a response?

          • wintermute

            By your own logic most straight men are violent rapacious beasts, which we are not.

          • avgjo

            I’m curious, did you read my post? I don’t want to question your reading comprehension ability, so I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt.

            As far as your use of the word ‘logic’, please don’t. it’s insulting. Nowhere did I say the majority of anyone (‘most’, in case you’re having trouble following) were violent, rapacious or beasts. I made the point that Purington’s attempt to redefine things doesn’t change the reality of the thing. Don’t like my examples? Take it with them, not me.

            I also notice you didn’t even try to attempt to respond to the connection between so many prominent ‘gays’ and NAMBLA/pedophile groups. You didn’t address the fact that pedophilic fantasy is a prominent theme in ‘gay’ literature. You didn’t address the fact that the 1972 ‘Gay Rights’ platform included the removal of age of consent laws.

            Your responses (such that they are) are typical of the pro-’gay-rights types. They are emotional, they are selective in what they choose to acknowledge and they are prejudiced (in other words, no amount of facts or reason will change their mind; they’ve decided what they want to believe in advance and that’s that.) Of course, participating or being sympathetic to a lifestyle which boils down to being completely consumed by one’s lusts and appetites, this really comes as no surprise.

          • wintermute

            You try to say you were simply making a point about the redefinition of words but thats not at all what you are saying in that post and in this one, and the last paragraph especially the last sentence of this one pretty much reveals it.

            “Of course, participating or being sympathetic to a lifestyle which boils down to being completely consumed by one

          • avgjo

            I start from the premise that the whole heart of the militant homosexual movement is a lifestyle consum,ed by base lusts and appetites. That’s why everything on that side is interpreted through the lens of sex.

            Don’t like the psychos? Too bad. That’s the logical result of giving in to your basest desires and lusts, which is the essence any lifestyle which revolves around sexual proclivities, including homosexuality. They claim it’s about visitation rights or property rights or whatever. Bull. If that was really the main concern, they would agitate for specific rights. Instead, they seek to force the rest of us to affirm their ‘lifestyle’. They use the tactics of the left, including judicial activism., legislative end-runs around the will of the people, ‘hate crimes’ laws, and outright terrorism to achieve their agenda.

            Dehumanization? Again, you’re using the tactics of the left. No where did I claim they were vermin, non persons or non human. I gave an accurate description of the homosexual worldview, and you, in true liberal fashion, respond with some variant of the ‘hate’ meme. You libs all hide behind that when you have no substantive response. It’s the most childish thing in the world, and the only reason it ever works is because a lot of people are so concerned about being regarded as nice or being liked that they will compromise just about anything to avoid being labeled mean or some variant thereof. It’s a guttersnipe tactic that takes advantage of people’s weaknesses, like pretty much every tool in the liberal toolchest. Difference is with me, i don’t care. Offer up a serious, substantive refutation to the assertion that the homosexual lifestyle is anything else than I described and I’ll take you seriously.

            Of course you don’t know anything about the ‘gay rights’ platform or the connection of prominent ‘gays’ with pedophilia. And of course you don’t care to look into it. True to the emotional, narcissistic Zeitgeist, you will not consider any fact that might cause you to have to reevaluate your worldview. No, you feel what you feel, I’m sorry, you ‘believe’ what you ‘believe’, and damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.

            Nice sad stories. That’s another lib tactic. Trot out some poor soul who’s suffering supposedly exemplifies the point you’re trying to make about group X. Follow it with platitudes like ‘they aren’t pedophiles or serial killers…’ It’s all emotional nonsense.

            Nowhere did I say they’re all pedophiles. Nowhere did I say that they’re all serial killers. From the beginning, I granted your point that there are plenty on both sides. But like a good liberal, you take things out of context, make baseless assertions, extrapolate from non-existent premises and in the end, think that yelling and appeals to emotion will win the day.

            I maintain, that statistically, for such a small percentage of the population, homosexual pedophilia is proportionally much higher than heterosexual. And given that (a) much data indicates that many (often most in a given study) homosexuals were molested as children and (b) that those who are molested are children are much more likely to engage in such behavior as adults, this comes as no surprise.

          • wintermute

            and lol at me being a liberal. ooook. get a freaking grip. but bravo, great way to end the conversation.

          • Dave_A

            That’s what the word means, after all.

            Thus, men who molest little boys are gay

            Men who molest little girls are straight

            Both are abject unreformable pervs, and should be executed when convicted (although the Supreme Court disagrees with this, for some odd reason).

            This doesn’t mean that all homosexuals are pedo-pervs… Just like all heterosexuals aren’t…

            But you can’t say ‘he’s not gay because he only went after boys, not grown men’… Still gay.

          • Victor_Purinton

            “homosexual” does describe same sex, and since a man and boy are of the same sex, then, sure. But we are under no obligation to demand that “gay” be the equivalent of “homosexual”, especially since the word gay has broader cultural connotations.

            Is it accurate, in your mind, to call Jerry Sandusky a “gay child molester”? In my mind, the answer is no. That rhetorical formulation would only be used to denigrate gays by juxtaposing the words, particularly given the “gays are pedophiles” meme that can be discovered floating about here and there.

  • kajun65

    With that being said, I feel the Gay community wishes us to Endorse Sodomy. I can not and will not Endorse!

    • PowerToThePeople

      or them wanting you to endorse it. Some straight couple participate in sodomy. The issue is solely the gay community wanting to destroy the tradition of marriage, nothing more, nothing less. They do not care if you “endorse” their style of sex, they want to take what we have just because they think they can.

      • kajun65

        hmmmm now there’s a Oxymoron. I don’t care who does it (as long it’s not to me) i will not Endorse!

        • PowerToThePeople

          a moron bub. You really need to find a kiddie site or grow up a bit prior to posting again.

          • kajun65

            why you resort to insults, but that’s fine. I just thought I was disagreeing with you. Also, kindly try not to tell others what they should or shoudn’t do.

          • PowerToThePeople

            no insult, simply let you know you are a moron. I am sure you were already well aware of that fact. Can not be an insult if it is truth.

            Lastly, It was a suggestion ya idiot, not an order. Learn the difference if you have the mental capacity to do so.

        • thethinman

          Homosexual and Lesbian marriage has not much to do with Sodomy. it all has to do with taxation and inheritance laws, rules, and regulations. Much of it begins in a hospital where your best friend in this life is dying of aids – and you are NOT a family member and the hospital can prevent you from seeing your best friend or him from seeing you (you to him/her if you like). then there are tax breaks for people that live together with a piece of paper that says they are duly and legally married.

          Lastly, while “I” believe that “marriage” is what happens when a man joins a woman – legally according to the law, and “I” believe that is what God intended (I do not speak for God), there is obviously a history going back over 4,000 years of homosexuality and lesbianism. banning it, outlawing it, making it a crime, shunning those that “do it”, makes no difference. I’m against encouraging it nor do I condone it – and as someone said – you ain’t doing it to me. I have much more respect for myself and my body than to put things where they don’t belong.

          first reform the tax code – or get rid of income tax altogether – fat chance. Next, like a “living will” you should have the ability to say who can or cannot visit you while you are ill – I have friends that are welcome and family who are not. and since “I” or my insurance is paying the bill – the hospital needs to keep its dirty grubby paws off my visitors – unless no one can visit because I have a contagious communicable disease.

          • Xasteius

            I could designate my pet cat as the inheritor of my estate. The ‘gay rights’ movement is nothing more than a bunch of wackos forcing everyone else to acknowledge that their choice of lifestyle is morally correct whether or not other people agree .

    • avgjo

      to treat a lifestyle that centers around sensuality and appetites as akin to a culture or racial identity. That, with what PTTP said, is the real danger. What behavior will be treated as an identity next?

      • kajun65

        with that synopsis. I also feel Gay’s commit sodomy and by asking us to agree with their marriage, require me to endorse such behavior.

        As for being called a Moron and Idiot for speaking my peace, well guess there’s unhappy people everywhere in this world.

        • PowerToThePeople

          called a moron, quit making moronic comments. Going to start you in the right direction:

          Gays can be women, most if not a majority do not have sodomy. So just on this point, your comment in moronic.

          Many male gay couples do not have sodomy. Just because they are men and gay does not meant they are practicing sodomy. So again, this makes your comment moronic.

          Next, most gays could care less whether or not you endorse their sexual behavior just as most straight couples could care less what you endorse. This is yet another part that makes your comment moronic.

          And last but not least, gay couple are not trying to get you to endorse their sexual practices, whether it be sodomy or otherwise, they want you to end the tradition of marriage just for them.This was another factor in your being exposed as a moron.

          Now, do you grasp all of that? You are more than welcome to state your opinion or speak your peace, but when the spoken is idiotic, expect to be called on it just as you were here.

          Easy enough for you to understand?

          • kajun65

            Sodomy (/?s?d?mi/) is any non-penile/vaginal copulation-like act, such as oral or anal sex, or sex between a person and an animal.[1]

            above is the definition of Sodomy so yes Gay Women perform Sodomy. I also understand straight couples and chimps do also. If and when this gets to the Supreme Court and they state Gay Marriage is law, then I will abide. I still don

          • PowerToThePeople

            semantics, OK bub. The term sodomy is used to refer to anal copulation, nothing else. I could care less what the original definition was. Few if any refer to oral sex as sodomy, you know it, we know you know it.

            You meant anal sodomy, hence your comment was moronic. Even assuming your are the one soul on earth that meant everything outside of anal sex, your comment is still a juvenile moronic comment.

            And I have live a long time, not worried what being upset will do to me.

            Grow up, admit you went stupid on your comment, and move on to a subject you might know something about.

          • thethinman

            both are “homosexual” meaning man and man or woman and woman. few are “gay” in the true meaning of the word. I still contend that they are living together – two people in one bedroom – they are married, in fact – if not legally with all the perks of a man and woman being married – legally before the law. and mostly what they want is to have those tax perks and inheritance perks. I don’t know that they want me to “approve” of their sex life – I don’t and won’t. they can get the the hot place however they wish.

  • aesthete

    we’ve had a productive session of mutual understanding and respect in discussing issues having to do with homosexuality.

    • acat

      At least so far, the word “bigot” hasn’t been thrown, and nobody’s violated Godwin’s Law….

      Do you have a pool going on how long before either of those happens?

      Mew

      • tnfriendofcoal101368

        give it time…the discussion is yet young…

        • acat

          I was going to pick 9:00pm eastern…

          Mew

          • tnfriendofcoal101368

            I vote that pervert has left the station and headed to Down Hill From Theresville. I would agree that bigot and nazi are still awaiting the arrival of their train from No Where Town.

          • Dave_A

            Pervert showed up when child-molestation was discussed (I did, admittedly participate in that one, from a fairly evenhanded ‘This is what the word means’ perspective with some condemnation of pedos of all stripes)….

    • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

      And in response, I’d point out there are other issues discussed recently that have gotten pretty heated and ventured into name-calling territory. Free trade comes to mind. Don’t construe this as an endorsement of the name-calling.

      • aesthete

        there’s usually some substance behind it all (well, at least on one side of the debate).

        The gay marriage arguments always start out with accusations of BIGOT and PERVERT, and go downhill from there.

        IMO, davenj wrote a pretty decent, thoughtful post on the subject — one that is being ignored in favor of the screaming match.

        • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

          and I see some strong beliefs offered without shouting or name-calling.

        • thethinman

          to have that piece of paper? and the winner is not so they can “legally” do what they are doing – but so that they can have the same benefits as a man and woman with that piece of paper. If they believe that the piece of paper will exonerate them in their sin, their abomination before God – it won’t.

        • davenj1

          I try….

  • zachv

    … and hundreds of hours constructing a contract that still doesn’t encapsulate the full benefit of marriages and still can be rejected at the whim of a court, so that I may better protect my kids and family, is not in any way, shape, or form equal to two drunks spending $50 dollars for a marriage certificate and gift basket in Las Vegas.

  • Viet71

    Just an informed guess.

    Marriage in the U.S. always has been a matter of local (state) law. As far as I know, all states today permit civil marriages; which means the law is neutral in this arena re religion.

    The clear trend over the last 40 years has been to relax restrictions on who can be a couple and on rights certain couples enjoy.

    Loving v. Virginia was about race and equal protection; it was a marriage case. Lawrence v. Texas, a sodomy case, was about privacy in one’s own home between consenting adults.

    The privacy and equal protection doctrines are quite distinct. My (small) bet is the Court will find they co-exist so as to render DOMA unconstitutional.

  • westcoastpatriette

    http://americansfortruth.com/2012/06/21/philadelphia-gay-pride-parade-and-festival-feature-lewd-acts-porn-booth-sadomasochists/#more-11937

    So much for those who insist SSM hurts no one.

    • Viet71

      I’ve spent a LOT of time around and working with gays on the East and West Coasts. The ones I’ve met are, for the most part, good natured and completely harmless; the last thing they want to do is overthrow the existing order; they want to be left alone by government in terms of their sexual preferences but are quite sociable.

      Gay activists, like many activists, are another matter.

      • westcoastpatriette

        as a harmless homo. Did you read the article I linked? I doubt it as you are usually one of the first to defend homosexuality and call it harmless.

        All immorality is harmful and you trying to make it sound harmless and cool is not helpful nor does it change the truth.

        • Viet71

          I’m not a Christian, but did not Jesus preach love?

          I love the unborn.

          I’m indifferent to gays and lesbians but am tolerant. Completely.

          How can one love love Jesus and hate or despise or otherwise diminish a fellow human? I only ask. I’m a searcher.

          • westcoastpatriette

            you’re starting to sound more and more like a troll. Real phony.

            A few weeks ago, you were pulling your Bible off the shelf and expressing a desire to get reacquainted with it. Now, you have disavowed its teachings.

            I’m not interested in helping you in your search. So, you can try to bait someone else.

          • Viet71

            You resort to a defensive position.

            Snarl if you wish.

            I was hoping for a thoughtful response.

          • westcoastpatriette

            and you know it. Don’t think you want to debate…you enjoy provoking. That’s why I think you are trollish — and I have nothing to defend.

          • Viet71

            On the internet, where all are anonymous.

            Troll. Phony.

            Don’t take ‘em personally. Think of ‘em as ways to avoid responsibility.

          • westcoastpatriette

            You seem to think I owe you an answer and if I don’t give it, I am being irresponsible.

            Actually, I don’t suffer fools…and that is very responsible.

          • arod

            your insults of other redstate diarists are promoting ill feelings and general disharmony on the site.
            please stop.
            a person truly living as a christian would be on their knees tonight begging for forgiveness for all of the venomous bile you wrote tonight.

          • gekster

            weastcoast is one of the nicer posters here.
            If she’s throwing insults it might because they were earned.

          • mikeymike143

            so what friendless loser is posting as arod? i would wager its 10ab.

          • APA Guy

            …yet knows that I am a college professor and rips westcoastpatriette…all on the first day.

            Hmmm…

          • avgjo

            don’t hate a person, you hate the sin. Jesus was extremely kind to sinners, but spoke scorchingly of sin. As far as ‘diminishing’, i suppose it depends on the definition being used. With many homosexuals, it seems that anything short of outright approval is diminishment or ‘hate’. As far as what the Bible says on this issue (for a searcher):

            Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind*,

            Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

            I Corinthians 6:9-10

            This would be considered ‘hateful’ by many of the homosexual activists.

            Personally, i believe sin is sin. But that is often perverted in meaning. People often use it to say things like ‘sin X is no better than sin Y’. And then a sort of generalized, ‘it’s not that bad’ attitude towards sin comes about. But if you put, say, ‘rape’ for X and ‘lying’ for Y, I think a lot of those same people would react in an interesting way. To say ‘sin is sin’ is to say it’s all awful and offensive. (I’m including mine at the top of the list.) From a Christian perspective, approving of the ‘gay’ lifestyle is as offensive as approving of an adulterous lifestyle or of habitual lying.

            [*the word in Greek is arsenokoites, ' one who lies with a male as a female, a sodomite' , according to Thayer's lexicon.]

            We all sin. Grace covers it for those who accept Jesus’ gift of salvation. Where the problem comes in is when reproof is given (by God or by Godly people) and it is ignored:

            Correction [is] grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: [and] he that hateth reproof shall die.

            Proverbs 15:10

          • zachv

            Don’t think you go unnoticed over there.

          • avgjo

            how is this in any way a substantive response to what I said?

            There is little difference between what I say there and here. I just have to follow different rules.

            But this is predictable. You cannot stand any criticism of homosexuality, of the thug tactics used by the militant homosexual activists or any narrative that doesn’t agree with with your point of view.

          • Viet71

            I’m one who loves Jesus but is not a Christian.

          • avgjo

            I don’t follow. He did not NOT love anyone.

          • Xasteius

            He called ‘sin’ sin.

          • kipling

            At least not love as the world defines it.

            Jesus taught that man is sinful and separated from God. Yet, God loved mankind and sent His Son to pay the penalty for man’s sin so that man could be reconciled to God. Each individual must accept Christ and His work on the cross. Acceptance leads to conversion and to Christ reigning in our life.

            Scripture teaches that God is love but God is also just and must condemn unrighteousness. Those who say that Jesus preached love are often really saying that Jesus taught acceptance of sin and a “let’s all get along” type philosophy. They ignore the righteousness of God.

            Jesus taught a lot about hell and judgment. He also had harsh words for those who followed their father the devil.

            I encourage you to begin reading the Gospel of Mark. It is short and to the point. Often we think we know Jesus until we read the Scripture.

          • aesthete

            but I would say that “He preached a radical love that reconciled unrepentant sinners unto Himself” is a succinct way to express this point.

            I agree that papering over sin cheapens the sacrifice that Christ made for us, and presumes a moral status for people that we simply haven’t earned. However, concentrating overmuch on specific sins and objectification of these sinners leaves Christians open to an error of a different sort: refusing compassion and forgiveness for the fallen (including ourselves) which Christ explicitly demands of us (yes, demands!). Many of the problems with Christianity can, IMO, be traced to one of three things:

            1) Not accepting the implications of Christ’s power, authority, and sovereignty.

            2) Not truly accepting Christ’s forgiveness and compassion for ourselves as total, and living lives of self-flagellation.

            3) Not truly accepting Christ’s forgiveness and compassion for others as total, and living public lives of a Pharisaical nature.

            IMO, the rhetoric of many Christians regarding homosexuality as a “special” sin oftentimes falls into categories #2 and #3, whereas denying homosexuality as a sin falls into the first category. There is nothing special about homosexuality; it is no different from other sexual sins. Creating the impression of an inseparable chasm between homosexuals and God impedes ministry, and that radical love that is demanded of us becomes impossible if we see homosexuals as subhuman degenerates. After the Cross, the only chasm that separates homosexuals (or any other sinners) from God are the ones that they themselves create, whether through sin or obstinacy or refusal to accept forgiveness or any other reason. We as Christians would do better, and be better, if we saw homosexuals in the same light as God sees us, and endeavored to treat them and other sinners with the dignity which God has intended for us all along.

            You already know all of this, of course, but I figured I’d hash it out for the benefit of lurkers.

          • kipling

            Homosexuality is a sin like all other sins and does not bar one from accepting the love of Christ – a point made by Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

            According to Romans 1, homosexuality is a sign of decline within a society brought on by the rejection of the knowledge of God. With societal decline, all sins will become more prevalent. The end result is not a society in which anyone will fill safe.

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            I agree with both of you. While we have certainly gotten to the point that sex outside of marriage doesn’t carry the shame it did back in my day, adulterers and fornicators aren’t protesting, playing the victim or asking for special status as a group in order to further their agenda of acceptance.

            I really doubt that an Adulterers Pride Parade would go over very well in most areas, despite the acceptance (for lack of a better word) that has been perpetrated by Hollywood. Breitbart said something to the effect that many of our ills stems from Hollywood and its infiltration into the homes. I would agree – plus a lack of teaching in the home.

          • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

            Good questions and answers being circulated here. Just one point of clarification from the Reformed side, and then I really hope you can all take time to read an excellent article.

            Without exhuming and resuming an old disagreement between kipling and I–which I don’t intend to resolve here!–over whether the Romans 1 references to homosexual behavior are primarily warnings to extant societies of the consequences of said behavior (k’s view, paraphrased, iirc) or rather a 15-second chapter in a 2-minute-long History-of-the-Gentile-World-from-Cain-to-Hitchens (mine) … on the Reformed side at least, everyone in the world–including all variations of homosexual and heterosexual–is born under and remains under the just judgment of God, and the only hope for all of the above is to be found through faith in the person and work of Christ which alone cleanses the real guilt of all sin, from the sin of chosen homosexual activity, to the sin of self-righteousness for rejection of homosexual activity, to the sin of pronouncing homosexuals incapable of receiving the cleansing blood of Christ, to the sin of pronouncing homosexuals exempt from the judgment of God.

            Period.

            Now to the promised link. As usual, it’s Michael Horton, this time addressing these questions in his typically lucid pastoral style in an article published a few days ago. Excerpt–including a reference to a tragic misapplication of the Romans 1 passage:

            Struggling with homosexuality is a paradox, but embracing homosexuality is a contradiction…

            There is no reason to think that Christians who struggle with these attractions are any less justified and renewed by God’s grace in Christ than are those who wrestle especially with greed or anger or gossip. The gospel frees us to confess our sins without fear of condemnation. Looking to Christ alone for our justification and holiness, we can finally declare war on our indwelling sin because we have peace with God.

            If there is no biblical basis for greater condemnation, there is also no scriptural basis for greater laxity in God’s judgment of this sin. It is as unloving to hold out hope to those who embrace a homosexual lifestyle as it is to assure idolaters, murderers, adulterers, and thieves that they are safe and secure from all alarm. … A proud sinner defiantly ignoring the lordship of Christ while professing to embrace him as Savior is precisely what Paul says is impossible. These passages do not threaten believers who struggle with indwelling sin and fall into grievous sins (see Romans 7 for that category); rather, they threaten professing believers who do not agree with God about their sin.

            At the end of his rope, a young man called me at the suggestion of a mutual friend. After a summer of discussing these questions and building new categories, with the support of a good church, he returned home. He told his parents that he was neither “gay” nor “straight.” Secure in Christ’s sufficient work, he was a Christian struggling with same-sex attraction yet who rejects the gay lifestyle. It was not a category for these folks. After his pastor informed him that he was one of those Gentiles whom Paul refers to as “given up” by God to their depraved desires, this friend and brother committed suicide. Superficial views of sin can be deadly, especially when the lethal weapon was a misuse of Scripture.

            Yet for every simplistic condemnation there are 20 simplistic approvals. … [P]sychology exceeds the boundaries of its competence when it imagines that taking a behavior off of the psychological disorder list means that it cannot be considered a disorder (or sin) in a moral and spiritual sense.

            One problem of simplistic views of sin is that they always generate simplistic views of redemption. Scripture speaks of salvation in terms of a tension between the “already” of salvation and the “not-yet” that still awaits us. Unwilling to embrace the paradox of being “simultaneously justified and sinful,” we reject either justification or sanctification. However, a simplistic view of sin as acts requires as its solution nothing more than red-faced threats or smiling therapies for getting our act together. “Just stop doing it,” says the simplistic anti-gay position. “Just embrace it,” says the simplistic pro-gay position.

            Full article as published in Christianity Today: Let’s Not Cut Christ to Pieces, by Michael Horton.

          • Viet71

            I’m not a student of the Bible, but to me pride means arrogance. Believing one possesses truth and another does not; believing one is superior to others, either in the eyes of man or the eyes of God.

            Pride is a deadly sin, IMO.

            I defer to your knowledge of the Bible and religion.

            Thanks.

          • aesthete

            to another person’s beliefs is not prideful, it is a consequence of utilizing discretion and judgement in choosing between a variety of viewpoints (which all of us do and should continue to do). Believing oneself to be superior to another person, OTOH, *is* prideful.

            To use an example, my belief that 2+2=4 is correct, and if someone tells me that 2+2 actually equals 5, their view is incorrect. This is regardless of how I feel about my view; it simply is so. I believe that the scientific method is far preferable when it comes to careful evaluation and inquiry into the physical world than divination. While I might be wrong in holding a belief (for example, I might wrongly believe that (d/dy)xy = 1), the act of holding a belief to be true and superior is not inherently prideful. In fact, one consequence of seeing pride as a flaw is that I hold a set of beliefs about prideful behavior which I consider superior to views which uphold pride as an untrammeled good.

          • Viet71

            I believe you are superior to all here because I value your reason and logic.

            ACAT challenges me to support my proposition.

            I discount him, saying, “Dare not challenge me. I know of what I speak.”

            Different from 1 + 1.

            A matter of assertion.

          • aesthete

            without evidence, not necessarily someone who is prideful. They are overlapping, but not equivalent, sets. Children are an especially good example of a subset of people who assert things but who generally are not asserting them out of pride.

          • acat

            Not that my opinion carries much in this arena, but … it depends on why you refuse to cite.

            If it’s because you really are a subject matter expert and I’m making a sub-101-level error, then refusing to reply out of annoyance is still incorrect, but isn’t prideful.

            If it’s because you are arguing something where I actually am right and you don’t want to admit it, then .. perhaps pride.

            If it’s because it’s an area of charged emotional disagreement with no clear consensus answer, then … perhaps it’s being kind to put the discussion out of its’ inevitable misery.

            As I am not The Shadow, I am not about to guess what’s lurking in your heart, eh?

            Unrelated – what does my stalker have to do with this? (One of Stricia’s legion of accounts was named “ACAT” .. not “acat”. (I don’t want to pay the capital gains tax…))

            Mew

          • tnfriendofcoal101368

            For the next time Stricia gets out of the asylum…

          • westcoastpatriette

            you have a way of completing and bringing a comprehensive biblical view to complicated and disjointed debates and discussions we have here sometimes. And so far, I have always agreed with you.

            Now, I will go read the rest of Horton’s piece on the matter.

          • westcoastpatriette

            including the links in it (I had not heard the controversy re: Chambers changed stance on how to address homosexual conduct or desire in the church), I am inclined to say one more thing in defense of the church at large — and Christians specifically here at RS — who continue to try their best to uphold the biblical teaching on homosexuality.

            And that is that the notion that Christians are overly harsh or singling out for condemnation homosexual conduct more than other sins is untrue. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and Christians today are being constantly bombarded with an onslaught of accusations, hatred, bigotry, mocking and other demeaning attempts to marginalize and destroy us personally, as well as the church’s teachings as a whole, by those who have made up their minds that they are right and we are wrong.

            IOW, we are constantly provoked into the discussion to begin with by the aggressive pushers of the homosexual agenda, and then condemned for speaking the truth. So, I reject the notion that we are somehow being excessively critical or judgmental of this particular sin. As Melody has tried to point out, I don’t see anyone else caught up in a particular sin demanding that the whole world change to accommodate the complete acceptance of it. And that is where the homosexuals and their sympathizers cross the line. So, they bring the attention to themselves — we are not singling them out. If they don’t want to hear the truth from Christians, then don’t ask. It’s pretty simple.

          • kipling

            I see nothing in your post – or in the words of Michael Horton – that disagree with anything I said in my post or previously.

            The purpose of Romans 1-3 is the condemnation of all men. I agree that all men are sinful and in need of the grace of God. All sin springs from a rejection of God and the knowledge of God. Homosexuality – as with the other sins mentioned in Romans 1:28-32 are the result of that rejection and of God giving them over to their desires. The prevalence of those sins and their acceptance by society are indicators of a society in decline. Society must either turn back to a knowledge of God or further devolve into the cesspool on which Romans 1 concludes.

            I agree that after justification Christians must continue in sanctification in which the new spirit within man struggles with the flesh. See Romans 6&7. I also agree that homosexuals can be saved – as per 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. You can also note the other sins listed in that passage other than homosexuality.

            As to our old disagreement, to be quite honest, I have forgotten where we stood on the matter and the source of contention. Otherwise, I do not see where we are far apart on this one.

        • 10ab

          I really do try to ignore your posts I really do…. But seriously do you live in a bubble, are there no gays in your church or community? How can you actually write “there is no such thing as a harmless homo”? That statement is so cringe inducing and coupled with your many anti gay posts here at RS I have come to the conclusion you might want to fosus more on YOUR self righteous behavior as it is a real buzz kill.

          • runner12

            The only time you ever post on RS is to make some Leftist, anti-social conservative comment. Where were you when we were discussing the health care decision? Third party? Tax vs Penalty regarding the AFA?

            And the Left claim that social conservatives are single issue voters.

            You are not fooling anyone. Based on your past posting and inflammatory way of stating things, you appear to be nothing but a troll.

          • westcoastpatriette

            The same way you fools make your cringe inducing anti-Christian posts. What’s good for the goose….

          • mikeymike143

            10ab, i can stop you from posting here. all i need to do is turn off the electricity in your parents basement.

    • acat

      Zombietime .. documents some of the lunatics in Baghdad by the Bay. Note – zombietime isn’t entirely safe for work…

      One point, though…. do you really think most of these people are going to be getting married? How are they seriously different from the various college-age idiots at textsfromlastnight .. ?

      Mew

  • davenj1

    was to lay out the cases as they are arriving at the Supreme Court. Hopefully, it is presented in a thoughtful, non-emotional and understandable manner.

    Obviously gay marriage is a hot-button issue with emotions high on both sides. Unfortunately, when it comes to mischaracterizations, generalizations and name calling, we give justification for courts to consider a prejudicial animus in enacting gay marriage bans. It leads to misunderstandings of Lawrence v. Texas and rulings like Walker issued in California re: proposition 8, not to mention Romer v. Evans. In fact, in denial of the en banc 9 Circuit review, one dissenting Justice there stated that the denial amounted to a blanket assertion that anti-gay marriage laws were based upon prejudice. In effect, the whole discussion has been “Romerized” and that is not a good omen for opponents of gay marriage.

    • westcoastpatriette

      and, personally, I am to the point where I am losing respect for the courts as much as I have lost respect for politicians.

      I know you are an attorney and you seem to enjoy following the courts, but, like everything else in our government today, the courts have usurped too much power, IMO, and if they continue to screw over the people (such as one homosexual judge in CA did with Prop. 8), they are going to have a major rebellion on their hands.

      Court rulings are not the final say on matters and we give them way too much power and deference. They are behaving like an oligarchy with the supreme ability to interpret the Constitution for the rest of us serfs and Americans will only take so much before they find a way to fight back. That’s just my opinion.

      • davenj1

        In fact, in a previous comment I stated that if New Jersey were to have the question of gay marriage on the ballot, I know how I would vote personally. What I find disturbing is that the courts may take that option away from me and voters who have already had their say, directly or indirectly, in 38 other states. I fully understand that states cannot pass laws or amend their constitutions if they violate constitutional rights. However, gay marriage has never been considered a fundamental right subject to special constitutional protection AND homosexuals have never been considered a “suspect class” subject to special constitutional protection.

        Whether now is the time to reconsider these LEGAL FACTS is what the debate centers around. Unlike a lot of people, I have great faith in the courts, especially the Supreme Court. In fact, if you go way back in my diary entries, I raised a little brou-haha regarding my agreement with Walker’s decision in California. Did I like the outcome? NO! But, the legal reasoning was impeccable.

        I have had so many disagreements here, and you may have been one party in some discussion or other, that I lost count. But, I have respect for your views and welcome rational debate. And as I also said, the whole gay agenda is being pushed by a radical subset of that community.

        • westcoastpatriette

          and how you could think Walker’s legal reasoning was impeccable is beyond me, daven. The ninth circuit needs to be dismantled as their decisions are overruled over sixty percent of the time and they consistently make a mockery out of the law, IMO.

          Any time a judge thinks he has superior wisdom than God and makes rulings that violate the laws of nature, their rulings are null and void and should be ignored. Such is the nature of life and these things were commonly understood at our founding and are being reclaimed today.

          If the courts are foolish enough to try to overturn all of the states who have amended their constitutions to prohibit SSM, let them try to enforce their rulings as they will certainly be ignored by a majority of Americans.

    • bogornes

      I agree with much of what you have written. I believe that part of DOMA will be overturned, based on prior and lower court rulings, which largely backed the findings in Romer. Your final point is well taken: the name-calling here is symptomatic of the divisive nature of this issue, and simply gives ammo to those who would argue that laws such as Prop 8 are merely based on prejudice.

  • californiasquish

    for the SoCons:

    Do you have any objection to gays being able to enter into legal contracts with whoever they want, or is your objection to this idea purely based on ‘changing the definition of marriage’? In other words, if we granted them the same rights the rest of us have, but didn’t call it ‘marriage’, would you still have a problem with that?

    Under the current law, a gay veteran who’s served this country for over a decade and was legally married in a state that has gay marriage still cannot grant federal protections to their partners. I found this case as an example:

    http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/ap-gay-verteran-sues-over-denial-of-spouse-benefits-020112/

    I would think we could (mostly) agree that the law should be changed so this woman can give her benefit to her partner, whether one personally agrees with her sexual orientation or not.

    Anyway, I would love to hear some thoughts on that.

    • Ann_W

      In some of the Scandinavian countries where gay marriage has been legal for a while the marriage rate for gays is very small, less than 5% IIRC (I could look up if you want). So if that is the rate when there are no objections, the only reason interest would be higher here would be to make a point and to force things on people who object.

      Gay marriage isn’t even codified everywhere and they are trying to change the essential characteristics of marriage ( see http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html and www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/magazine/infidelity-will-keep-us-together.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all) Gay relationships have always been MUCH more unstable than heterosexual relationships, why don’t they set up their own traditions that work better for their reality and name it something else. The only reason that seems to make sense is to shove things in the faces of people who have disapproved of them.

      Of course no one objects to a legal contract that gays want to set up. But saying that marriage between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is the same as the traditional marriage that gives so many protections to people and society is false.

      • otis1

        Most of the people I know,and they are mostly Conservatives, could care less about adults trying to make two bolts/nuts fit. And most of the people I know could care less how tan a good neighbor is.These are just ploys the LEFT uses like CLASS WARFARE , to own America/divide u.s..

        • gekster

          Ain’t got one, do ya.
          How can you debate ‘Billy” on the radio when you ain’t on it.

          • civil truth

            Continuing to call out otis1 is going to be increasingly counterproductive the more your persist. Instead, you need to lay out your case by an e-mail to the moderators and let them take it from there.

          • otis1

            He needs to post something,vent?

          • PowerToThePeople

            Civil was standing in the gap for you, then you are mistaken. All he is stating is that there is no valid reason to waste any further effort on a lying crazy nut like you.

    • PowerToThePeople

      very simply:

      Most of us do not care if homosexuals enter into binding contracts, even civil unions.

      We do not want anyone, gay partners or straight partners (unmarried) to be denied access to loved ones, not be able to pass on their own money/property to whomever they choose to, etc

      But we will not allow a very small minority of the population to destroy our tradition just because they want to.

      But reality is:

      The gay agenda has nothing to do with being able to be married. Maybe some of the lockstep members think that is what it is about, but the reality is, the homosexual community has repeatedly fought being given civil unions as that is not what they want. Hawaii is a prime example of this. Civil unions for the gay community seemed to be in the bag. Would have granted them every right of being married, but did not infringe on the tradition of marriage. The gay community in mass came out against the proposed bill and defeated it. Why you may ask, because it did not take marriage away from the awful racist discriminatory straights.

      Few gay couples are refused access to loved ones in hospitals. This is just a BS claim that by the gays to pull on heart strings that has been proven false numerous times. They take isolated cases where the hospital has made a decision to deny access for medical reasons (which would have been denied to any person gay or straight) then claim it was because they were homosexual.

      As to your link, few issues. Do I care if her partner was granted benefits, no. But the issues are numerous, but I will limit it to these few. The military person knew the rules when she enlisted, knew she would not be able to cover her partner, and decided to pursue the career anyways. What she and the article are not mentioning is that just as she was denied, so would a straight couple who were not married. There is no discrimination here. I know one could argue that they were married, but, DOMA precludes gay marriage. Like it or not, a vast majority of the country agree with the law, and want marriage defined between a man and a woman. She knew this prior to enlisting, knew she could not offer benefits to her partner, but chose to enlist anyways. Can not come back later and complain about what you already knew would happen.

      Outside of federal benefits, gay partners can choose companies that offer benefits to gay spouses, can enter binding contracts as to the dispersal of their assets, can visit loved ones in hospitals, etc so there is little difference between them and a straight married or unmarried couple. But that is not enough for them, they want what they are not entitled to simply because someone else has it.

      • Xasteius

        no text

      • aesthete

        If this were about having the same benefits and privileges as hetero couples, gays could have had that with civil unions in the 90s. Instead, it turned into a misbegotten crusade for “civil rights” (sorry gay couples, but having the same legal status as us straight and gay single folks is not a civil rights issue) and acceptance among American culture has set back actual, practical contractual rights for homosexuals by decades, as well as ticking off a large segment of the American population which previously wasn’t even particularly aware of the existence of the homosexual sub-culture, much less actively opposed to it.

        If gay people knew just how much their so-called activists have retarded their ability to contract with each other and integrate into polite society, they’d sock their “leaders” in the face, if they had a shred of common sense.

    • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

      Should a church be forced to allow a same sex marriage to take place on its private property, thus violating its religious principles? Should a photographer who owns his own business have the right to tell a same sex couple he’s not interested in taking their pictures?

      I don’t like NPR, but here’s a pretty good list of lawsuits – NPR.

      • californiasquish

        Short answer: No and no.

        Long answer: I am one of the people who see sexual orientation as something people are just born with, like skin or hair color. That is based mostly on my personal experience, but it’s also starting to be backed up by scientific studies. (Kinsey’s work blew my mind, for one) But I don’t trust entirely in those studies because they generally strike me as politically motivated one way or another. I have no problems with gays getting married. I’m married. They should be treated the same under the law. I personally don’t care what it’s called one way or another, but I understand that some people do.

        My assumption leads me to two conflicting ideals: one, that people should be treated equally under the law. Gays are entitled to the same life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness I enjoy, and should not be discriminated against because of their sexual orientation. And two, religious institutions should be free from government intervention. This issue is definitely where the rubber meets the road, as many, but certainly not all, religious institutions see some sexual orientations in direct opposition to their religious principles.

        If churches are participating in the public square, then they must confirm to the rules and tolerances of the public square. I don’t have a problem with the Westboro Baptist Church refusing to marry gay people, nor should they be compelled to by the government. But if they operate a school that accepts public money, then they can’t expel kids simply for being gay.

        It’s similar with the Boy Scouts. I understand they don’t want gays in their ranks, and they’re a private organization and entitled to their opinion. But my Boy Scout troop met in the public school, and used public school property and services, and I think that changes the game.

        Welcome to the squishy middle.

        Oh, and thanks for the responses above.

        • Ann_W

          You realize that Kinsey did his work in the 40′s and 50′s? That’s hardly “starting” there’s been a lot of time to examine his work. Did you know that in his sampling he went out of his way to include groups that had high rates of deviancy in them? Prisoners are way over represented in his sample. And anyone living together was considered husband and wife? So the prostitutes that he sought out to interview were considered wife to a pimp if she lived with him. Then he presented this research as representative of a general population. The sampling was very unscientific and his findings on rates of homosexuality, among other things, have never been reproduced in other studies.

          He also encouraged, participated in, and filmed sexual activity of all types with his employees. He also either observed or uncritically accepted “data” from pedophiles molesting children. A woman in Germany won a lawsuit against Kinsey when she told of being repeatedly molested by her father and grandfather because they were collecting data on children’s sexual response for Kinsey.

          He’s not a researcher that I would trust “research” from. He had a vested interest in justifying things that he was enthusiastically living.

          As far is “born that way,” identical twin studies show a pattern that is more indicative of environment than genetics with 32% of identical twins sharing homosexuality with their identical twin. See http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?volume=157&page=1843 . That hardly indicates “born that way.” They had the same exact genes, environment, even looks and family position and yet only 1/3 of the time did both identical twins end up as both being homosexual.

          Don’t believe everything you hear.

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            I’ve been busy with work and haven’t had time to respond. I appreciate the back-up and hope to eventually add a little more of my two cents worth (more than the usual 30 second comment).

            Oh, and you are right.

          • Ann_W

            nt

  • kaheo

    Some could claim that tradition meant that which is acceptable to the society. That would mean Same sex couples are not traditional. The same could be said of inter-racial couples. It wasn’t the norm back in the day therefore the Supreme upheld laws barring interracial marriages. Traditions, though acceptable to a majority might not necessarily be constitutional unless they’re are strongly backed up in the constitution.

    There are 2 ways I see the SCOTUS can interpret this:
    1. LGBT should be entitled to federal benefits irrespective of their sexual orientation(Equal Protection Clause).
    2. Neither straight nor the LGBT’s have a constitutional right to get married – they can only derive it from their states (10th Amendment).

    In both scenarios, I predict Justice Kennedy, ruling as Libertarian would, striking down DOMA.

    I’m yet to get a convincing argument that would point to the SCOTUS upholding DOMA. What clause(s) of the constitution would they base this on? I’d like to see potential ways in which Roberts, Scalia, Alito, Thomas will uphold the law.

  • exitsfunnel

    Thanks for this diary and your writing generally. As a non lawyer interested in the law, I always enjoy your contributions. Even when I’m not commenting (which is usually), I’m still reading.

    As someone who is not opposed to gay marriage (indifferent really, though I would happily vote to extend the right if the ballot were put in front of me), I think that in the long run gays will regret having pursued the issue in the courts, even if they win. If gay marriage is instituted by judicial fiat, rather than through the legislative process, it will never feel ‘legitimate’ to a large swath of the population and as a result will remain controversial probably decades longer than it would have otherwise.

    I think that this is why abortion has remained so controversial even outside of the social conservative community. To be clear, I consider myself an opponent of abortion so I understand the principled argument against it and understand that even were it legal through the standard legislative processes some level of opposition would remain. But I think that without the specter of Roe -v- Wade and activist judges as a rallying point, the movement would not have endured as it has.

    And the thing is, you don’t need a PhD in statistics to be able to read the trend in support polling over the 15 years that people have really been talking about this issue. Nor do you need to be the sharpest sociologist in the shed to look at our society and realize the degree to which gay culture has been mainstreamed over the last decade.

    I think that it’s pretty obvious that if the gay activists don’t shoot themselves in the foot, gay marriage will exist via the standard legislative processes in all 50 states within 20 years and maybe even sooner. Even those states where it seems really unlikely I suspect will go down with a whimper once the federal government and probably even corporations put the funding clamp to them.

    -exits

    ps – it’s too bad but not particularly surprising that the comments section turned into what it did. Frankly, it’s hard to believe that some of these people are adults.

  • runner12

    DOMA. For all the vitriol surrounding the law, all it simply does is leave the decision up to the states. If it were upheld tomorrow, absolutely nothing would change, except that the Prop 8 challenge would be null and void (given that the people have decided this matter).

    I do not think Roberts wants another Roe vs Wade on his hands and I even think Kennedy will lean on the side of Federalism on this one. I have serious doubts that the Court will somehow claim that it is a Constitutional right to be married. That is quite a stretch. I also believe that the proponents of gay marriage will havd a hard time proving to the SCOTUS that they are discriminated against, given the existence of civil unions.

    • Victor_Purinton

      “I have serious doubts that the Court will somehow claim that it is a Constitutional right to be married.”

      Several rulings have established that it is a right.

      As for this …

      “I also believe that the proponents of gay marriage will havd a hard time proving to the SCOTUS that they are discriminated against, given the existence of civil unions.”

      I trust that you can see the irony in this.

      • runner12

        to rule on this. The SCOTUS is a completely different animal than the lower courts. Given that it is Roberts’ court, a court in which we have seen a shying away from controversy, I think what I stated holds true.

        Marriage is not a Constitutional right. If it were then the laws preventing an older man from marrying a minor as young as 13 would be unconstitutional. Try arguing that one.

        Marriage is a social and religious contract at its core. The state has since become involved. However, with the changing if laws and civil unions those benefits from the state have been extended and gay individuals are not having any rights violated. That argument is simply a strawman argument to pave the way for their real goal, which is forced social acceptance. It is not the job of the SCOTUS to force such an acceptance of a change in the defintion of marriage that has existed since the beginning of time.

        As for your condescension, spare me. You show up and your first comments are on a hot-button topic and you take the Leftist viewpoint. You argue incessantly with anyone who disagrees with you, and not politely. This lends the appearance that you are simply a troll and not willing to engage in any meaningful debate. Tell me, who do you plan to vote for in November?

        • Victor_Purinton

          In Loving v Virginia (quoting Skinner v. Oklahoma)

          “Marriage is one of the “basic civil rights of man,” fundamental to our very existence and survival.”

          • runner12

            Who will you be voting for in November?

            Secondly, every case that comes before the SCOTUS is different. Yet, I will point out that even in your quote, it stops short of calling marriage a Constitutional right.

            The fact is that it is not the job of the court to forcibly change the definition of what is a social contract by nature. You have failed to respond to the fact that since civil unions have come into being and other measures, the argument that civil rights are being violated has become null and void. What you are left with is an argument over a social definition, in which the courts have no place in ruling. That is a decision that shoud be left up to the People and society.

          • Victor_Purinton

            I play by the rules, and you should, too.

          • runner12

            I asked a simple question, which is relevant to the debate as it reveals whether you are debating in good faith or trolling. That is hardly equivocal to the Spanish Inqusition.

            Who are you voting for in November?

          • runner12

            Hit post before I was finished by accident. What I was going to congratulate you on is the single weakest dodge I have ever seen on RS.

            Simply asking you who you plan on voting for in November is not a violation of RS rules. It is quite relevant to our debate as it reveals whether or not you are debating in good faith or are trolling.

            Given that you dodged ny question and that you have failed each time to respond to my points (resorting to tired Left-wing talking points), it is reasonable to assume that you are a troll. Not a very good one at at that.

          • Victor_Purinton

            Read this post of mine on Kos. I was called a troll there, too.

            Come back and give me a response to what I wrote there.

            Then I’ll answer your question.

            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/11/1015571/-A-message-to-the-world-s-militant-Islamists-on-the-10-year-anniversary-of-the-September-11-attacks

          • tnfriendofcoal101368

            The language those basement dwelling teenagers use is beneath me.

          • runner12

            group think sites at all costs. Besides, why should that be a prerequisite to you answering my question? Not that I really have any doubts to what it will be, after looking over your posting history and your previous diary here (which bewailed the Citizens United ruling- not a Conservative position, I might add).

            In the spirit of fairness, I will tell you that I will be voting for Romney. Look how easy that is!

            Now you try.

          • Victor_Purinton

            Obama.

            But, wait a minute. You said that you will use this information to determine if I’m a troll or not. So, a Democrat can only be a troll here? I don’t think that’s a constructive position.

            And I’m not a troll by any reasonable definition. I don’t want to poke eyes. I want to change minds.

            By the way, read the article I linked. As I said, I was called a troll for posting it there, so it must have something going for it.

          • runner12

            But that is not the reason I called you a troll. I called you a troll because when asked specific questions, you obfuscate. Not only that, but you fail to respond to the points in opposition to yours. In other words, you are terrible at discussing or responding to points that are made. Instead, you ignore them and resort to talking points. The use of said talking points illustrates a group-think mentality and a low ability for rational debate and discussion.

            Additionally, you are not going to change any minds here. Those who are part of RS are either Conservative or libertarian in ideology, not socialist/marxist. That is a divide that cannot be crossed. Besides we have the advantage of being right, while your side is in every way wrong. The history of mankind verifies that fact.

            Have a nice day. I truly hope that one day you will realize the error of your thinking and that socialism/progressivism always ends in tyranny.

          • Melody Warbington (rwm52)

            is a constructive position. Bless your heart.

            As for your tenure here to “change minds,” that’s up to the mods.

          • tnfriendofcoal101368

            Being a Democrat doesn’t get you the troll handle…supporting their issues do. We are here because we are dedicated to sending Obama and his family a nice U-haul with a sticker on the back that says “Chicago or Bust”. Any discussion is dedicated to discussing the best path to see that happens. Discussions with Obama voters is only useful in the sense that you change your mind and vote for Romney.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            We’re an activist website, buddy.

            You don’t fit with our purpose.

            Your commentary just isn’t smart and informed enough to make you useful to us as a debate partner, so.. g’bye.

          • PowerToThePeople

            So you wrote an article filled with cuss words because you have not yet learned that as liberal POS, you are supposed to hate America and embrace the courage of the terrorist so DKOS losers spurned your post and banned you? Is that supposed to give you cred here?

            Get a life, find another place to squat, we have no interest in you, your opinion, or the ignorant country destroying scumbag you voted and will vote for.

            Is that easy enough for you to understand or do I need to cuss a lot for you to grasp that?

          • APA Guy

            nt

  • ericscottl

    A gay man can marry a gay woman or a straight woman or a bi woman or any sort of woman he wishes, no?

  • otis1

    Seperation of Church & Fate. It was not the document that kept me and my EX together for 24 years, it was our kids. We raised them well,better than us,and then before we killed each other we split. And now we get along better,including exsex,than we ever did.

    Gays usually don’t last very long together,and I know this because me and my EX lived near the beach in California back in the 90′s. Many of the guys think every night is an orgy,and the women think they can put their butch with a lipstick.

    What people do in private is none of my damned business.But, when the DEMS attempt to sway these people like they do other minorities,against AMERICAN WAYS for personal gain,then it harms my kids futures,and now we have a problem.

    Remember when the DEMS invited I’MAINAJIHAD from Iran, to speak at Columbia U in NYC,after the students at CU attacked Conservative Pro-American Speakers? And the students at CU loved I’MAINAJIHAD,until he claimed there were no gays in Iran? He probably meant alive?

    Vote for your Constitution/Republic,not DEMS.

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