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Dispelling Some Myths About Immigration Reform

One of my favorite conservative bloggers is John Hawkins who also writes an article on Townhall. Recently, however, he ran an article about immigration reform that, I believe, contained somewhat disingenuous arguments against comprehensive immigration reform. And many of these arguments I have heard and read in other venues, including here at Redstate. Specifically, he argues that granting any form of “amnesty” would be counterproductive to the Republican Party. For example, he notes that legalizing currently undocumented persons would give Democrats a huge electoral advantage going forward. Assuming there are about 12 million illegals in this country, he uses the 2012 Presidential election results with respect to Hispanics. In 2012, Obama received 73% of the Hispanic vote nationally versus Romney’s 27%. First, Hispanics and illegals are not necessarily spread uniformly throughout the United States population. Since we do not vote for our President by direct popular vote, national figures take on less significance. I will admit, however, that the figures should serve as a red flag in that Republican messaging is either not reaching the Hispanic community, or it is falling on deaf ears. Using these figures, he then extrapolates to argue that legalizing all illegals would deliver 9.6 million votes to the Democrats and 2.4 million to the Republican Party for a net gain of 7.2 million Democratic votes.

Again, this assumes that the Hispanic population is uniformly spread throughout the fifty states and that the 73-27% split will be the norm every four years. It also erroneously assumes two other things: that all 12 million will just be automatically made legal. Every proposal, including Democratic ones, would screen out certain classes of people from any proposed program so that the figure would likely fall below 12 million. Big numbers just sound better. Secondly, it assumes that all 12 million illegals are of voting age, that all 12 million illegals are at least 18 years old and registered to vote. That is simply not the case. Thus, his figures that the Democrats pick up an automatic net 7.2 million votes ignores demographic reality and that 7.2 million votes will be automatically delivered to the Democratic Party in one fell swoop.

He then illustrates, through electoral results, how past “amnesty” efforts affected the Republican Party. In 1984, Ronald Reagan won with 37% of the Hispanic vote. The last major immigration reform overhaul was passed under Reagan in 1986, the so-called Reagan amnesty. He then argues that this tactic backfired on the GOP since George H.W. Bush only garnered 30% of the Hispanic vote in 1988, a 7% drop from the Reagan victory. This ignores 1988′s other electoral dynamics that may have caused the decrease in the Hispanic vote. Additionally, most of those “amnestied” were not legal by 1988. Hence, the people who received the greatest benefit from the amnesty did not even vote in that election. So we cannot say that Reagan’s immigration reform, which included amnesty, caused Bush to see a decline in the Hispanic vote. A false connection is made here.

Another argument is that the Democrats would simply claim credit for the reform which would solidify their standing among Hispanics. He uses the example of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965. In that legislation, Republicans were the party that actually pushed through those laws even though the racist Lyndon Johnson is given the most credit. And despite the fact that the Republican Party was founded as the anti-slavery party and dominated after the Civil War and that it was Democrats who were members of the KKK, Democratic state legislatures that institutionalized Jim Crow laws, and it was Democrats who voiced the greatest opposition to the 1960 civil rights laws, they do now claim credit for all the civil rights achievements of the 1960s. And whose fault is that? Republicans can only blame themselves for allowing the Democrats to steal this talking point from the GOP.

But most importantly, he argues that this is not necessarily good for the country as a whole and then trots out the argument that Hispanic illegals compete with Americans for jobs. For every study showing that illegal workers cause wage depression, there is another study showing they do not and usually two others saying the evidence is inconclusive. The best study I have seen shows that illegal workers depress local wages in certain classifications. For those without a high school diploma, the effect is not even the greatest. In the short-term, they depress wages an average of 8.1% and 4.9% over the long term. Demographics explain this since an influx of a large number of illegal workers into a geographical market will necessarily depress wages much like product dumping decreases costs. However, illegal Hispanic workers are generally migratory and once the local population evens out as the illegals move on, wages naturally increase. That explains the fact that the long term effect of illegal workers on wages within a defined area is less. Regardless, there are a number of factors that determine wages for any job or occupation within any defined geographical region besides the number of undocumented workers “taking jobs” from Americans.

But, like most of the arguments against immigration reform, opponents usually then decry the fact that Republicans have failed to make inroads with the Hispanic community. Again, who is to blame for this? Republicans have simply allowed the Democratic Party to potentially steal this demographic. They did this by failing to outreach to the community. Many have adopted the “Tancredoization” of the argument- a hard core anti-reform stance. Every single poll I have seen from a variety of sources both liberal and conservative and everything in between indicates that immigration reform comes in number six among concerns of the Hispanic community. In fact, education ranks at the top of the list in the Hispanic community followed by fiscal concerns- the cost of health care, wages and employment, and, yes, the national debt/budget deficits.

Another misconception is that border security must come first before any immigration reform is enacted. Too many conservatives in too many venues stress this and dig in their heels. I see no reason why dealing with the ones already here cannot go hand-in-hand with border security measures. Both strategies can be used together and simultaneously. And when talking about “border security” and those already here, one has to look at the reasons why they come here in the first place- economic opportunity. That opportunity is provided by employers and is a major reason why, if we really want to get serious, we need E-verify and strong workplace enforcement that truly punishes employers who hire undocumented workers. The fact that willing employers hire undocumented workers explains why the national Chamber of Commerce has crawled into bed with the AFL-CIO and Latino civil rights groups in favor of immigration reform.

Most importantly for the Republican Party, there must be outreach to the Hispanic community. The Democratic Party has shown their willingness to pander to that community and they are falling for it hook, line, and sinker. A perfect opportunity for the GOP is educational reform that stresses choice, not throwing money at failing schools. Why should a Hispanic student (or any student) be forced to go to an under-performing school? Towards those ends, the Republican Party needs to counter liberal Hispanic groups like La Raza and MeCHA with conservative Hispanic counterparts. Most Hispanics I know, even those of Mexican descent, do not want the southwest returned to Mexico as MeCHA advocates. Forming and financing groups dedicated to conservative principles and how they apply to the Hispanic community is a must.

Secondly, the RNC, NRSC, and NRCC need to recruit and run conservative Republican Hispanics with a central core message. There is a belief among some that Hispanics are, by nature, more conservative than African-Americans and thus should be more open to conservative beliefs and the Republican Party. Generations of entitlements directed at blacks by the Democrats has essentially enslaved that community which explains why Democrats get more than 90% of the black vote consistently. It also explains why ethically challenged Democrats like Charles Rangel and Maxine Waters garner 95% of the vote in their congressional elections. There are conservative Hispanics out there and the GOP needs to find them and support them. Among current legislators, it is up to people like Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Raul Labrador, Susana Martinez, Brian Sandoval and others to take the lead here.

Third, Republican candidates despite their ethnicity need to run more advertisements on Spanish-speaking radio and television and establish more offices in the Hispanic community. At times, it appears as if the GOP is afraid of this latter suggestion and that they are somehow capitulating to the Spanish language regarding former. As was stated earlier, Hispanics are not uniformly spread across the 50 states. A state like California may be a lost cause at this point, but a failure of outreach could put Texas in jeopardy. If that is the case, it is lights out for the Republican Party when it comes to national elections. Therefore, Texas would be a great place to start especially since the Democrats have already started a program to “turn Texas blue.” Other states would be Colorado and Florida in the short term and then a 50 state strategy in the long term.

A perfect example of the trend and the danger exists in my home congressional district represented by a Republican. The last time this district voted for a Republican presidential nominee was for Bush in 1988. Since then, it has voted for the Democratic nominee with the margin of victory growing every four years. In fact, Obama’s margin of victory was greater in 2012 than in 2008 which bucks national trends. Demographically, the district’s Hispanic population has increased over this same time period with its African-American population being stable and its white population decreasing (as a percentage). The only realistic thing keeping the Republican Representative being elected is the fact that the Democratic Party in this district is relatively weak. However, as I have conveyed to my congressman, his days may be numbered if the Democrats ever coalesce around a candidate and if that candidate is Hispanic. Forget the black vote as that is basically a lost cause. But, for the reasons blacks have drifted and identified with the Democratic Party, Republicans run that risk with Hispanics if they fail concerted outreach and if they continue to base policy decisions on erroneous or misleading information bordering on myth.

COMMENTS

  • trem

    The biggest benefit from immigration reform would be that it removes immigration as an issue going forward. Hispanics are mostly conservative hardworking people, once we remove the issue of immigration as an election talking point our candidates won’t have to risk annoying the base or a vast growing demographic by taking a stance.

    • commonsenseobserver

      Nonsense.

      Hispanics are a mixture like the rest of the nation, some hardworking and Conservative, and many more lazy and socialistic.

      • avgjo

        20 % of them are on welfare, tops. That does not qualify as ‘many more’ being lazy. Perhaps comments like this drive them to the left. At least they pretend to like them.

        • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

          “20 % of them are on welfare, tops.”

          Wrong, (legal) immigrants are more likely to use welfare programs:

          http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

          “In 2009 (based on data collected in 2010), 57 percent of households
          headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal) with children (under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native
          households with children.”

          Illegal immigrants are supposedly barred from welfare programs, but in fact they are accessing many services, from education aid to health services that are available to ‘all comers’. Legalizing them would add severely to the welfare costs as they get legal access to more services, and in general their much poorer on average than other US residents.

          • avgjo

            See above. I am in no way referencing illegals. They shouldn’t get any welfare.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            avgjo, yes, and neither was I in the stats. While many legal immigrants are hard-working, it’s still a fact that immigrants are using welfare programs at a higher rate than natural-born Americans. Indeed, a low-wage legal resident might be hard-working AND a welfare recipient (think janitor on food stamps or EITC).

            Immigrants use govt services at a higher rate than native-born Americans.

            I dont know if there is a big difference between illegal and legal immigrants except this: Poverty. Legal (employment-based) immigrants tend to be middle-class, college degrees or with some other advantage, while illegal immigrants, more than half from Mexico, came here from a lower socio-economic level. You cannot get around the fact that these people are simply on average much poorer, have lower salaries (or none if they are the dependents) and will be net takers when it comes to Govt services if its available to them. Legalizing the current illegal aliens will skew those stats more.

            The moral indignation factor involved, as in “how dare they come here and take our jobs?” vs “how dare we question these noble souls just out to make bread money?” really should be set aside to look at the practicality. self-interested folks, many as hardworking and motivated as any typical American, have decided their economic best interest is to break immigration laws and come here to get ahead. If we respect that self-interest, we should just set up Guest Worker Visa program to make the process legal. If we want to limit this importation or poor uneducated workers, enforcing laws and e-verify are needed; in truth both would help.

            Some do it to escape poverty and in so doing are importing poverty here, and also end up, if we legalize them, to be able to benefit from welfare programs. Ironically, it is the fact that it is illegal immigration that we to some extent mitigate the ‘welfare magnet’ effect. Amnesty will create huge welfare budget problems and hugely wrong incentives for future migrants. For this reason, it will matter a lot what KIND of immigrant we turn illegal aliens into, and its reason enough to consider further limits on welfare for immigrants, legal and illegal.

            Since we are in a toxic political environment where any proposal that would be disadvantageous to a particular group is viewed as ‘hate’, it will be considered eg racist to suggest we disallow welfare for immigrants. And yet, that would likely be the most compassionate way to ALLOW eventual legalization of illegal immigrants without breaking the system further.

          • avgjo

            No argument with anything you’ve written. I have always strongly opposed amnesty, and I continue to. You’re right about the toxic environment. I simply corrected a generality that most Hispanics are lazy and socialist, and several good folks I normally agree with on just about everything (yourself and lawstudent included) thought I was for amnesty. I am interested in reaching out to people like a lot of my mom’s family, who were born here and identify as Americans.

            I defended Akin in the sense that while I agreed he sounded really stupid, he was being taken out of context. A lot of people here made the case that while that might very well be so, in this environment, we cannot afford to make gaffes like that. I’m just trying to apply the same principle to this issue of the AMERICAN Hispanic voter bloc.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            “I simply corrected a generality that most Hispanics are lazy and socialist”

            Yes, that attitude is wrong, counterfactual and prejudicial and definitely has no place in policy discussions. This Texan knows plenty of hard-working Hispanics and many could be natural conservative Republicans if we reach out correctly to win voters.

            I didnt assume anything about your position, except to correct that false claims about welfare use. now in Obama’s America anyone with below average income will get health care subsidies… It’s almost a no-brainer that if you make a lot of people who are mostly poor citizens, you’ll have a higher welfare load. CIS and other groups have the stats.

        • lawstudent

          The LEGAL ones tend to be regular hard working Americans who want to make it here on their own chops. The ILLEGAL ones are looking for handouts to support their families back home, and expect American taxpayers to pay for their kids education and healthcare. Not to mention lowering wages and displacing work from lower class American citizens. Making them citizens would help with this how exactly?

          • avgjo

            Read my comments, lawstudent. I strongly oppose Amnesty. (See, for instance, my replies to Mr. Jim Riggs on Reince Priebus’s post) I am worried about outreach to legal Hispanics (naturalized or native-born). This comment was made with that in mind. I stand by it.

          • avgjo

            Re-read my comment, lawstudent. I was not referring to illegals. I was referring to the same people you started off talking about. Read my other comments, for instance on Reince Priebus’s diary. I am strongly opposed to amnesty, and I’ve been consistent on this issue.

        • commonsenseobserver

          You know, voting for Barack Obama by a supermajority is a rather clear sign of intellectual laziness.

          • avgjo

            Could be. I have a pretty good handle on this; my mom’s family is Hispanic American. They’re all well-educated, and I know they’re more conservative than many here, especially socially. They vote dim. Why? Well, inter alia, they believe that the GOP is composed of racists. Comments like yours above certainly don’t help.

    • avgjo

      I would reexamine the ‘vast growing demographic’. Hispanic birthrates have dropped 26% in the last four years, 11% last year alone. And by the way, that includes Mexican nationals. They’re buying into the leftist claptrap about ‘reproductive rights’ and being ‘modern and liberated’. Ask the black community how that’s worked out for them. They were 12% of the population in 2000, 11% in 2010. The majority of black pregnancies end in abortion. I’m afraid they will be facing a demographic collapse in the not-too-distant future. Get into bed with the racist left, and that’s what happens to you.
      Think of it this way: if the left were so certain of the demographic rise of minorities that vote overwhelmingly lib, why would they continue the brainwashing we call public education? They need to continue indoctrinating the youth, which is majority white, or they will have no chance in the future. That’s why we must focus on taking back the institutions, not on distracting and tenuous (at best) demographics arguments.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      “The biggest benefit from immigration reform would be that it removes immigration as an issue going forward”

      Baloney. the 1986 immigration ‘reform’ made the problem worse and the political situation worse. It made California from R leaning to solid D in 15 years. Do a 4X sized amnesty and Texas and Florida will be gone too ( and Arizona, and …) It created enough of a situation where millions of legal residents have illegal alien neighbors and family members. The bigger the amnesty the bigger the future political headache.

      We are lying to ourselves about the Hispanic vote on a number of levels. Its not about immigration. Hispanics are on average less educated, poorer and have more broken family and out of wedlock births. Just going by marriage, income and education makes many of them susceptible to Democrat constituencies.

      Illegal immigration has basically been the importation of poverty into this country, and the legalization of it will hit our welfare system and our political system severely.

      Forget immigration – what issues win over the poor, uneducated and single?

      • checkmate2012

        Exactly Freedoms’!! I guess trem doesn’t know that Reagan did amnesty and didn’t increase the hispanic R vote from then on. I posted a comment on the RNC Chairman’s post to someone about poverty and the debt:

        “I ask you this: do you think amnesty of any kind will be a cost savings? Just the amount of money spent on gov’t forms in two languages is a waste and most want more government assistance, not less….”

  • commonsenseobserver

    I can see your other points, but it does no good for your argument when you claim that border security and enforcement (which go hand in hand, by the way) need not come before legalization, and can somehow both be achieved at the same time.

    Even Sen. Lightweight knows that such a deal is anathema to any Conservative with common sense.

    • commonsenseobserver

      In fact, whatever the electoral dynamics, surely we must agree that it is unfair and imprudent to grant most illegal immigrants citizenship anytime in the near future.

  • exitsfunnel

    The donks have the GOP over a barrel on this one. At the end of the day the House has to sign off on almost whatever is put in front of them. No one outside of the 2 or 3% of the electorate that reads political blogs as pastime is going to care about the policy minutia and they simply can’t be seen as blocking immigration reform whatever is in it. The party really shot itself in the foot by fighting Bush when he tried to get something through in 2007.

    • trem

      If we had gone along with Bush on immigration reform we would have won every election since then. That is not something we can ignore anymore, Rubios plan must pass and pass soon.

      • Kyle-MI

        No we would not have won those elections. The Hispanics still would have voted Dem and we would be in even worse shape because Hispanics would have poured through our borders in search of the next amnesty.

        • trem

          We don’t have to win the hispanic vote, just get enough of them to win elections LIKE BUSH DID. Bush got 40% of their vote, if he had passed immigration reform there is no way that number did not go up. Amnesty has bipartisan support and is pretty much a done deal at this point btw so might as well get used to it.

          • lawstudent

            Amnesty has the bipartisan support of liberals and country club RINO republicans. I personally will fight with every fiber of my being against this leftist capitulation that will ensure more socialist presidents like Obama. We want to give mass amnesty to an overwhelmingly poor and minority population in dire need of expanded government services, with a high rate of criminality, and a strong attachment to Mexico, which has essentially become a cartel run drug haven. Put me on the opponents list. This catastrophe would be a complete surrender to Obama and an abandonment of true conservative principles.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            “Amnesty has the bipartisan support of liberals and country club RINO republicans.”

            Amnesty is supported by elites but opposed by the majority of the American people at the grassroots level in both parties. Legalizing the gardeners and housekeepers of the elites helps salve their conscience, but it doesnt do a darned thing to fix the broken immigration system.

            the worst are those in the GOP who engage in the act of peeing down our leg and telling us its raining … amnesty is bad policy and even worse politics for the GOP, and one has be blind or wilfully closing one’s mind to the facts to deny this.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            “Bush got 40% of their vote”

            So even a white millionaire elitist Democrat (Kerry) beat Bush 60/40 among Hispanics, and this is proof of … what exactly? If we add 10 million to the voter rolls in 15 years and Repubs ‘improve’ to 40% of Hispanics, we are still down 2 million votes. The idea that amnesty will help Republicans electorally is maddeningly obvious lunacy.

            ” Amnesty has bipartisan support and is pretty much a done deal at this point btw so might as well get used to it.”

            Baloney. Obama and the Democrats didnt even push it when the Democrats ran the Congress. CAN YOU GUESS WHY? They knew it would cost them elections. They are waiting for the GOP to cave so they can do it ‘bipartisan’ and only idiot RINOs would be foolish enough to give them the gift they dont deserve on this. Did you forget how unpopular and toxic it was just a few years ago? Majorities oppose open ended amnesty. Strongly.

            It is VERY clear that Obama will only agree to a ‘path to
            citizenship’ amnesty… well, is that what you support? Letting illegal
            aliens jump ahead of legal immigrants? How many House Republicans will vote for that? Well, any that do will be inviting defeat in the next primary, because that position will be opposed 90/10 by Republicans … SO … there really is no path to bipartisan consensus and your ‘done deal’ claim is BS.

          • lawstudent

            Agree 100%. This is just another case of the RINO elites (looking at you John Boehner) caving to media and leftist opinion, and imposing solutions overwhelmingly opposed to by GOP voters. What’s even more pathetic is that this has no hope of helping us electorally, anymore than embracing homosexual unions helped the NY Senate GOP. Caving on our core values gets our voters to stay home, it doesn’t get the leftist voters to suddenly vote for limited government and low taxes.

      • Jim_Riggs

        At the very least we’ve have 300 more miles of fence.

        • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

          They passed a law backthen promising it. Never happened, like every other enforcement promise.

        • commonsenseobserver

          Which, to you, was obviously the worst thing about the bill.

          • Jim_Riggs

            On the contrary, I’m all for completing the entire thing. There is about 600 miles completed so far. I’m also in favor of using cameras, satellite surveillance, drones, and the National Guard if necessary. Whatever it takes.

            Where we may disagree is in 2 areas. One you already know. I’m in favor of comprehensive immigration reform and I see no reason why we can’t move forward on it while at the same time working to increase border enforcement.

            The second area where we may part ways is that I don’t think it does any good to pass legislation if you don’t also fund it. The last time I think they approved something like $1.5 billion for 700 miles of fence when most estimates to do the job were about $4 billion. What I envision is probably closer to $10 billion and I’d be willing to shift some of the DoD sequestration funds to it.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            Actually, the border isnt the main problem. The problem is lack of enforcement in the interior on a number of levels.

      • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

        “If we had gone along with Bush on immigration reform we would have won every election since then.”

        mindless blather. We would have lost 2006 on Iraq and 2008 on the financial crisis, but we ALSO would have been losing WORSE by now as the GOP would be shattered by the massive sellout of the basic principle that the LAW SHOULD BE OBEYED.

  • norris

    Sounds good but I don’t believe it could work . If you try to weed out the drug dealers , gang members and those on welfare who have never worked. The bad will chose to stay as they are . Police are strongly discouraged from asking questions about immigration when making an arrest . The only real change will be more legal voters.

    • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

      “Police are strongly discouraged from asking questions about immigration when making an arrest ”
      We the people need to insist on fixing that misguided policy where we can.

  • lawstudent

    I think immigration “reform” will be another disaster and capitulation for the republican party. We will be giving mass amnesty to an overwhelmingly poor and minority population, that is tremendously in favor of bigger government and more social services. Their social conservatism is fading fast, and their natural allegiance is to the Democrat party. It’s literally taking a shotgun to your head and pulling the trigger, next we might as well go an make Puerto Rico a state. We need to accept the fact that fundamentally the GOP will be the party of white people, with some fiscally and socially conservative minorities in the fold as well. Our mission should be to do whatever we can to maximize our appeal to the white voters who are currently voting Dem, whether it be the lower class union types, or the upper class educateds. I see little hope for any kind of uptick among overwhelmingly poor illegal immigrants.

    We should be fighting tooth and nail against any type of amnesty, and put our efforts towards enforcement and deportation, emphasizing that illegals are harming the lower and middle classes, and impoverishing American citizens. Had we enforced our immigration laws in the past, and properly deported illegals, we would probably have a President Romney today, and not a President Obama. Let us not repeat our mistakes.

    • exitsfunnel

      This comment goes a long way towards explaining why we’ve gone from 44% to 27% in just two cycles.

      • lawstudent

        No – what explains that is the appeal of a black president taking from the wealthy white people and giving to the poor non-white people. The delusion that we can reverse that by granting mass amnesty to a population that has fundamental economic interests wholly alien to the conservative movement is absurd and mystifying. We are the Republican party, we are not the socialist party, we oppose Robin Hood style redistribution, we oppose big government, and we oppose expansive social services for the poor. In short, our agenda is the antithesis of one that would help illegal immigrants or poor hispanics, who overwhelmingly benefit from Obama style redistribution of wealth. The road to victory for us rides through upper and upper middle class white people, not poor black and hispanic people. Immigration reform is just another way for the liberal elites to enroll more poor voters who will consistently vote for big government, and send us closer to Greece. No thanks. We should have deported them in 86, we should deport them now, and we should definitely not reward these folks by giving them citizenship and letting them vote for Obama.

        • checkmate2012

          A couple quibbles on this statement lawstudent:, while agreeing with most of your comments on this topic

          “The road to victory for us rides through upper and upper middle class white people (and those minorities who move up the income chain, becoming more fiscally receptive to our message), not poor black and Hispanic people.”
          Some surveys have said that attitude is exactly why many voted for O and bought the “he cares and the R’s just want to help the rich get richer” narrative. You were ahead on all your other arguments but this is not a winning one. How we get them on the road to a good standard of living is though, and our policies and message should be towards that aim. We have enough snobs in our Party, the politicians, so don’t want to encourage that point of view!

          • lawstudent

            We have to be realistic in who we can help. We can help poor people who are education focused and want to improve their lot in life, and not depend on government. We have a lot less to offer people with multiple children living in crushing poverty in a public housing project in the south bronx in the midst of a drugs and gangs culture. There is a reason Obama got 99% in these areas. The left wing has worked very hard to create a culture of dependency among the poor, and made sure that they will be cut off from their social programs if they move up the income ladder. This has disincentivized work and social mobility, and ensured that these voters will always vote Dem. Until we rework our government, and make sure that the proper incentives are in place, we have very little chance of making inroads among the impoverished. One place to start is to sharply curtail medicaid, and make people understand that to get good health insurance they need to find a job and make money. Ensure that it is more painful to lounge around than to go work.

          • trem

            The problem people have with your posts is that we are trying to figure out how NOT to be seen as the party for white people only while you seem intent on saying that being the party for white people only is fine and dandy. It is not, not electorally, not morally and not realistically.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            “We have a lot less to offer people with multiple children living in
            crushing poverty in a public housing project in the south bronx in the
            midst of a drugs and gangs culture”
            Wrong, we have the MOST to offer those who are trapped in those situations.
            Consider: You go to someone in a community in poverty…. drugs, violence, crime, etc.

            “So, you’ve been voting Democrats your whole life?”
            “Yup”
            “Hows that been working out for you?”
            “Huh.”

          • bobmark

            555

    • Bill S

      Racist much?

      • deltawing

        What about his post do you disagree with? It seems like a statement of some pretty obvious facts. Poor immigrants from Mexico are not “conservative” and do not vote as such. What’s worse, their children are forming a permanent underclass of low achievers who are dependent on big government. Giving millions of these people a path to citizenship will be the death of the GOP. It’s simple math.

      • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

        I thought name-calling of that kind was left to the leftists.

        • Jim_Riggs

          I have to agree with Bill. My first reaction to lawstudent’s post was that either he/she is a thinly veiled racist or was baiting us. Saying “we need to accept the fact that fundamentally the GOP will be the party of white people…” is ignorant at best and racist at worst IMO.

          • lawstudent

            I think there is a lot of confusion here. Romney’s voters were 88% white, Obama’s were 56% white. Minorities are vastly more likely than white people to be impoverished and dependent on welfare programs, people whose economic circumstances foreclose consideration of the GOP. I see virtually no scenario where a GOP’s candidate vote share is less than 75% white by 2020. Disagree? Please, give me an argument – use data. Smears of racism or baiting are unbecoming. We are not the leftist fools here who use emotion and name calling, we use data, logic, and facts. I contend that the GOP will remain 75%+ white for the foreseeable future. I’m happy to rectract that if given a plausible argument to the contrary. In the interim, I think our primary focus should be on groups that share a common economic interest with the conservative agenda, but currently do not vote for it. In my mind these include upper middle to upper class professional whites (and non whites, although in this demographic whites dominate), as well as lower middle to middle class white union members. Both of these groups are ill served by Obama and his redistributionist agenda.

            I welcome fact based responses – I do not welcome smears and charges of racism. That’s how maxine waters and her cronies debate, not how we do so.

          • Jim_Riggs

            I said it was my “first” reaction. I suspect Bill reconsidered as well or you probably wouldn’t still be here.

            Your idea, no matter how well intentioned, seems very short sided and defeatist to me. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We definitely need to listen to the concerns of “upper class professional whites.” Btw, I’m in that group. But we ignore the Hispanic vote at our own peril IMO.

          • fromthesidelines

            To your question: “I see virtually no scenario where a GOP’s candidate vote share is less than 75% white by 2020. Disagree? ”

            Yes, I disagree. In the past 60 years, the high-water mark for the GOP appears to be capturing about 60% of the white vote in Presidential elections. A sampling of data I could quickly find:

            1952: Eisenhower won 60% of white vote, and won the election
            1980: Reagan won 56% of white vote, and won the election.
            1988: HW Bush won 59% of the white vote, and won the election.
            2004: Bush won 58% of the white vote, and won the election.
            2008: McCain won 55% of the white vote, and lost the election
            2012: Romney won 59% of the white vote, and lost the election.

            If we assume a normal distribution, and that this data sample is representative, then that means the probability of the GOP capturing more than 63.7% of the white vote (avg + 3 stdevs) is 0.135%. (Note also, these are clearly some of the best years for the GOP; during the loss to Lyndon Johnson for example, the GOP won less than 50% of the white vote. Had I included those data points, that would shift those odds down even further).

            So, yes, I can easily see scenarios — in fact, well over 99% of the scenarios — where the GOP’s share of the white vote is (substantially) less than 75%.

            Additionally, during those 60 years, there have been titanic social changes and political re-alignments. Society has swung to the left, right and back again. The ascendancy of minorities and women during this time, both economically and politically, is undeniable. And yet, it has not resulted in massive shifts of non-Hispanic whites into the GOP, outside of a relatively tight range of 50-60%. If the upheaval of past 60 years has not so far resulted in either party reaching 75% of the white vote, then the next 8 years will not produce it either.

            Lastly, I will point out that since 1998, the percentage of the total electorate which was white has dropped by an average of more than 2% per year, from 85% of the electorate in 1998 to only 72% in 2012. If we assume this trend continues, then by 2020, in order to win an election solely relying on the white vote, it would require getting 74% of the total white vote; which, as I have already pointed out, is incredibly improbable statistically.

            Simply put, there is no way someone using simple critical thinking skills could arrive at your conclusion that a “party of white people” is a viable political strategy. The only way someone could advocate for such a thing, despite it being utterly non-viable as a political strategy, is if they wished it to be so. Accordingly, it would appear the Mods have made an accurate assessment.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            Well put, and factually based. We have to be more competitive with younger and minority voters in order to survive as a party in the future.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            The GOP is a party of ideals, founded on principles back in 1854 that reflected a belief in the dignity of people of all races. Unlike the Democrats, the Republicans have never been a party of slavery, racism, segregation, but the party of civil rights and equal opportunity for all.

            Your statement about the GOP as a party of ‘white people’ sets off alarm bells because quite frankly, why SHOULDNT people of ANY ethnic background support the party of free enterprise, equal opportunity, freedom, faith and a strong America?

            The problem in demographic discussions is the trap of over-generalizations. The fact that today there is a strong minority vote attraction to a party now headed by our first minority President doesnt change that fact or the proud Republican civil-rights heritage. Indeed, that heritage is the way out of the demographic trap set. Your statement that the GOP will be the white party is a bit defeatist, and if you consider the white liberal vote, not sufficient to the task of keeping the GOP competitive. The claim that it can rist to 75% is laughable, given that 25-30% of the white vote is liberal. If you flip the problem around and ask “Are we getting our share of the conservative vote?” You’d find that – no – we dont. Not when Obama got 95% of African American votes. Not all those voters are pro-abortion pro-higher-taxes pro-big-Govt and anti-religious-faith, etc.

            Our best opportunity for recovering the GOP majority is in recovering in some of the voter segments where we dropped the ball… the young, the single, the minority. In short, go after Obama’s core DEMOGRAPHICS not his core ideological followers. I don’t believe it requires changing core principles, but it DOES require messaging changes … which gets back to the alarm bells when saying GOP is party of “X” … funny, but Marco Rubio, Allen West, Sen Tim Scott, Sen Ted Cruz and Gov Martinez may have a bone to pick on that.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            there is a confusion of a desired outcome vs a description of ‘here’s how it is”…. even if in error, its not like his observation is unique and spoken about by non-conservatives …

            http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/11/10/gop_as_white_people_s_party_coalition_of_the_white_the_old_and_the_socially.html

            It’s important not to snuff out discussions like this but to have a ‘talking cure’ that lays out the consequences of choices the party makes …
            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/24/gop-attracting-minorities.html

            Bottom line: I dont think GOP should aspire to being what it apparently was in the 2012 election, centered on an older, white demographic. We should be a party for all demographics. But that said, we should be realistic about what is achievable, and for example, the idea that ‘amnesty’ would be a magic pill to win latino votes is a total pipe dream.

      • lawstudent

        I fail to see the racism. Poor minority voters logically vote for the people who promise them the big government programs that will overwhelmingly benefit them. If you come into America as an uneducated illegal immigrant with multiple children, and work in a minimum wage job, you would clearly be drawn towards Obama and the left. It’s just common sense. Programs like medicaid and Section 8 promise you tens of thousands of dollars in free benefits. The GOP promises you tax cuts, but because you make so little that is essentially worthless. Obama promises you free health care, free education, a unionized and moderately paying job, all kinds of regulations to protect you, and a host of other benefits. He is happy to raise taxes on upper income people (overwhelmingly white), to pay for it. Is it any surprise that lower income minorities vote 90%+ for Obama? I mean really, what do we have to offer them?? Its one thing to target lower income whites, who, through being natives and having decent language skills as well as social capital, harbor hopes of naturally progressing up the income chain, but what on earth can the GOP offer to lower class non-english speaking immigrants who are looking for a strong welfare system? 60 cents and a mint at starbucks? Its not racism – its reality, and no amnesty program is going to change that.

        • checkmate2012

          I kinda thought this statement at the end of the diary was either a bit racist or fait accompli…I’ll go with the latter after reading davenj1′s posts which have never suggested the former.
          .
          “Forget the black vote as that is basically a lost cause. But, for the reasons blacks have drifted…”
          .
          But this fait accompli attitude is wrong for gaining any vote, especially based on race, rather than on an individual, in my book.

        • Bill S

          We need to accept the fact that fundamentally the GOP will be the party of white people…

          Anyone who decides to accept that has issues.

          • lawstudent

            http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/scocca/2012/11/mitt_romney_white_voters_the_gop_candidate_s_race_based_monochromatic_campaign.html

            Romney’s voters were 88% white, Obama’s voters were 56% white. As conservadems die out and get replaced by Republicans, i fully expect the democrat candidate’s votes to be even a lower percentage white. I wouldn’t be surprised if by 2020 or so the Dem party is only 30% white. Look, if we can get our 2020 vote numbers up to 25% minority, that would be great. But we need to be realistic – black voters are overwhelmingly poor and not really that socially conservative, and quite unlikely to switch en masse, excluding perhaps the wealthier ones. We have a better shot with middle to upper middle class hispanics, but it will take time for the bulk of hispanics to get there. Right now most are teetering near the poverty lines, and the left can buy them off with social services that we don’t offer. Asians I could see moving right once they see the destructive left wing agenda, but that will take some time. In the interim, the GOP is going to be heavily white, and we need to deal with that. That means doing our best to convert the white voters who still vote democrat, against their interests. Two groups include voters with professional degrees and PhDs, and middle class union members. If we can get these guys, we are golden. Obviously we should be doing outreach to minorities, and I expect some return on that – but we need to aim for 70% of the white vote to win, and Romney only got 61%.

            Racist? Dkos rhetoric? Maybe. But its also reality. We do need to deal with that. It will be a long time before I expect minorities to compromise more than 25% of the GOP vote, and I don’t think amnesty will help that.

          • Bill S

            GOTO Bill’s_first_comment

          • MoeLane

            “Racist? Dkos rhetoric? Maybe.”

            …And, hey! Instant banning-validation! Seriously, we don’t like racists coming around here and trying to poop on our floor.

    • MoeLane

      “We need to accept the fact that fundamentally the GOP will be the party of white people”

      Annnnd that’s when I turned off your account.

      • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

        It would be more helpful to keep it on so he can be educated as to how and why he is wrong on that point.

  • oldtownyankee

    If immigration reform is really just about getting votes then there had better be some kind of “message out reach” worked in from the GOP. Something to lure in Hispanics. I see the disconnect first hand. I work with lots of Hispanics and Asians, both groups very loyal and devoted to their traditional values which include religion, family values, hard work, being responsible and pulling your own. They loath high taxes and intrusive governments. Complain about both! Yet to a person, the ones that voted all voted for Obama. They don’t see him or the democrats as the party of “big Government” big taxes or anything but “Hope and Change”. Romney was going to “send them home” Take their freedoms and enslave their kids. They all hate what’s going on yet don’t see Obama as the source of the problem. Until that “disconnect gets fixed, it doesn’t matter what we conservatives do or who we support. Even though our values are more closely alined with the values of these folks, they see the democrats as being on their side. Even on abortion, its mind boggling, its jaw dropping and stunning to witness this up close and personnel.

    • bobmark

      Yup, I live in a S. American majority town in NJ and that’s how it is here too. BTW most of the rest of the county votes R.

    • exitsfunnel

      Yes, the abortion disconnect is strange. My house is literally 150 meters from the Mexican border and on a day to day basis my social circle is 100% mexican / mexican-american and though they almost all claim to be personally opposed to abortion, as a political issue it’s just not even on their radar.

      • deltawing

        Elections don’t lie. Hispanics overwhelmingly supported a guy who openly advocated for gay marriage and abortion on demand. It’s not like Obama avoided those issues either. They were centerpieces of his campaign.

        I don’t want to hear about how Romney “alienated” Hispanics on immigration. He didn’t say anything on immigration that any real American would disagree with. Unfortunately, we’re infested with a large alien element that is determined to flout the laws.

        • lawstudent

          Yes – the fantasy of social issues turning minorities into GOP voters has been exposed as yet another big lie. Social conservatism among black people sure hasn’t gotten them voting Republican, and it seems delusional to expect anything different from hispanics. As long as these groups are overwhelmingly lower to lower-middle class, and very much helped by big government welfare programs, I see little hope for them voting GOP. All that caving here will do is divide the conservative movement, and create more leftist leaning poor voters. Seems like a recipe for disaster.

          • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

            “Yes – the fantasy of social issues turning minorities into GOP voters
            has been exposed as yet another big lie. Social conservatism among black
            people sure hasn’t gotten them voting Republican, and it seems
            delusional to expect anything different from hispanics.”

            Yes, this is generally true. But let me point out the obvious – Romney did RUN on social issues. This is a catch-22. “dont run on social issues’ say the RINOs because you offend social liberals… so you run on being pro-business and the downscale voters dont care for what you have to say…

            Really, the ONLY solution for the GOP is to encourage as much self-reliance as possible. Immigrants who are here legally, successfully etc. can be a part of that… but that requires REAL immigration reform, to whit:

            Replace family-based immigration with a ‘point system’ and more employment-based that allows/encourages a best-and-brightest set of immigrants. The ones who are least likely to go on welfare and most likely to be employed and/or start companies.

            Amnesty is a detriment to going in that direction.

          • lawstudent

            Romney absolutely ran on social issues…. in the primary. In the GE he turned into a mute on these topics. Where was the vociferous defense of traditional marriage? Where was the conviction that abortion is a fundamental moral wrong that kills millions of innocent children a year? Where was the belief that the public schools system’s war on religion has resulted in a huge increase in the divorce rate and in millions of shattered families? Where was the indictment of leftist feminism as threatening the family structure that has been fundamental to our prosperity?

            Nay, Romney and his brilliant consultants ran an economy only campaign, convinced that ripping the 47% was the key to victory. Look how that turned out…. Romney managed to antagonize and lose the lower middle class white voters who propelled Bush to two victories… great job.

            Without a strong social message the GOP is little more than the party of rich people, might as well make Montogmery Burns the spokesman… Heck, maybe we can put Dean Skelos in charge – cave on homosexual unions, cave on gun control, cave on the minimum wage, cave on unions, cave on taxes – what party is he from again?

            We need to combine strong fiscal and social messages, and focus on supporting LEGAL immigrants, who are committed to self reliance and not depending on our failed and bloated welfare system. We need to make people, including poor people, feel the cost of the social safety net, exactly the opposite of what Obamacare does. And we certainly don’t need to keep caving on core issues that unite our voters.

          • commonsenseobserver

            I don’t know what kind of candidate thinks that ranting about “feminism” is going to help him, to be honest, because Sarah Palin claimed that title herself, didn’t she?

            Of course, there has to be a good mix, and he should have punched much harder on the right to life of unborn children, which is pro-women and pro-middle class and pro-minority.

            Oh, Obamacare will work badly enough for everyone, including poor people. It’s just the latest extension of the safety net which will pull the whole thing down. If our goal is to make people feel the pain, we should have supported it. But we didn’t, because we know that what we need are not speeches about “if it isn’t hurtin, it isn’t workin”, but straight talk and real leadership to convince the American people, to bring everyone together, behind basic common sense. You’re saying your own version of the “47%” now, and while I definitely see the point about the culture of dependency and irresponsibility without consequences, the way forward is to tackle the safety net itself and slim it down to size, not juice and squeeze the American people dry while waiting for the whole thing to totter and die.

          • checkmate2012

            I agree lawtudent, the voting pattern of anyone, regardless of race, is mostly based one’s economic status until one reaches a comfortable standard of living, then all bets are off. Poorer whites, blacks and hispanics tend to favor big gov’t and social programs since they are trying to eke out a living in an ever more expensive proposition.
            .
            If we could only get the elite D’s to go on record, besides the standard fair and no fault of their own crap, as to why they want full blown amnesty (so disagree with davenj on this point), then we could have a real debate. That won’t happen so why cave until they get honest.

          • Jim_Riggs

            I would argue that immigration reform isn’t social conservatism. It’s economic and fiscal conservatism. At least it is to the immigrant.

          • PowerToThePeople

            It is fiscal conservatism. Not sure how “economic” conservatism varies from fiscal conservatism, but that is another topic for another day. But it is social conservatism as well. I think you mistake social conservatism for only dealing with abortion, gay marriage, etc.

            Illegal immigration destroys much of our social makeup hence fighting against rewarding criminals is a social issue. It is, as you put it, a fiscal issue as well due to the enormous cost laid on the taxpayer. But if it was strictly a fiscal issue we could ignore the illegal immigration problem and solve the fiscal issues by simply making it against the law to aid, support, grant welfare, housing, etc for anyone here illegally. It just goes deeper than that.

          • Jim_Riggs

            I don’t disagree with anything you said. I was responding to lawstudent’s argument that because blacks don’t vote republican, even though they agree on social issues, then Hispanics won’t vote republican even if we support immigration reform.

        • exitsfunnel

          Infested? Ugh. ‘Infested’ is a verb we usually reserve for head lice or roaches. Jeez man. So many of the comments in this thread are so disheartening. Down rate me all you want, but the GOP isn’t going to make any inroads with hispanics if the base can’t at least stop talking about them like they are subhuman.

          • deltawing

            That’s precisely the imagery I was aiming for.

      • trem

        It’s only strange if you think of them as single issue voters. Right now most Hispanics think the GOP hates them and is out to get them, that trumps every single policy we have that they might agree with. Once we get rid of the “you are not welcome here” image they will start noticing how many things they agree with us in.

    • http://www.TerriersOfTheRight.blogspot.com Flagstaff

      It’s easy to understand this disconnect if you make one logical assumption: most of those folks watch TV news and/or read the papers, and everything they see either place tells them that no matter what else may be true, Republicans are evil and Democrats are good. Period.

      Why else would so many otherwise intelligent people believe that Mitt Romney, who in real life behaves in a very generous and caring way towards the people around him, was an evil person who didn’t care about anybody else, even when the “evil Romney” stories were shown to be transparently false?

      Until the SCUM starts to really be fair we will continue to lose too many battles, no matter what issues we are right on.

  • checkmate2012

    So davenj1, do you support amnesty or not? Your post does a great job dissecting Hawkin’s piece and you make great pro’s and con’s versus his, but would be interested on your opinion as a conclusion.
    .
    I agree with this and have read the same stat, “Every single poll I have seen [snip]indicates that immigration reform comes in number six among concerns of the Hispanic community.”
    .
    That being the case, then why push for immigration reform as a vote getter among Hispanics, or are you? Better strategy is to enforce the existing laws, which this admin unlawfully refuses to do, if we’re talking votes only. There are other issues to reform the laws but I’ll stick to the voting aspect for now.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Another myth that was not touched on in this diary is that not all illegals are Mexican border hoppers. Nearly half of the illegals here now have overstayed their visas.

    Going the amnesty route would be a huge mistake on many levels and I am disappointed (but not that surprised) that Rubio is ready to cave on this. Republicans look like cowards when they let the Dems intimidate them and back down on principles. From the stand point of the rule of law alone, there is no way one can maintain their principles, grant amnesty for political reasons and come out with the moral high ground.

    If this is done, it will infuriate Americans who consistently poll near sixty percent opposed to coddling illegals. It’s wrong, everyone knows it’s wrong and it will be one more example of just how out of touch the elites are with the rest of us. Shame on Rubio.