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Law, War & Security – Why libertarians are wrong about ‘Indefinate Detention’

We hear complaints on this subject from time to time – in the past it was Bush’s opening Gitmo, the 2006 Military Commissions Act, and now it’s the NDAA & Obama not closing Gitmo…

Supposedly, this is a ‘grave violation’ of people’s rights, and we should all be very, very afraid because ‘It might be us next’…

Predictably enough, it’s usually lefties, extremists, libertarians, and Paul supporters (but I repeat myself on the last one, it seems – as that group encompasses all of the ones preceding) making these claims…

And rather than using the correct terms – such as EPW (Enemy Prisoner of War) or POW, and ‘detention for the duration of hostilities’, they use ‘indefinite detention’ and ‘violation of habeas corpus’ – as if the situation is one of holding every-day civilian criminals indefinitely without trial, rather than holding enemy combatants (some lawful, some very much unlawful) captured while engaging in hostilities against the United States…

So, with that said, here’s the case FOR proper handling of EPWs – or as the L’s call it ‘indefinite detention’:

1) The traditional treatment of captured persons, and specifically the concept of taking prisoners & holding them for the duration of hostilities or until an exchange can be negotiated, is older than the United States – and something we practiced ourselves in every war we have fought.

If it was Constitutional and right to hold British, Mexican, Spanish, German, and Japanese prisoners for the duration of the war-in-question – and to hold captured rebels for the duration of hostilities during the Civil War (despite their holding US Citizenship (the Union never recognized the CSA as a foreign nation) it being legal under the Constitution to try and execute them for treason instead – a decision likely influenced by the mutual possession of prisoners by both sides & the Union’s desire for reconciliation after eventual victory), what has changed to make it suddenly unconstitutional to hold Al Queda and Taliban prisoners in the same manner?

2) There are international agreements on the treatment of captured and retained persons – a subset of what is referred to in the military as ‘Law of Armed Combat’ or ‘Law of Land Warfare’ – that require certain things & prohibit others. Shooting surrendered enemy forces is prohibited, as is torture and various other offenses. <b>So is subjecting captured enemy troops to the capturing nation’s CIVILIAN JUSTICE SYSTEM.</b> Prisoners found to have engaged in unlawful combat/war crimes (through a hearing process spelled out in the aforementioned agreements) are to be tried by <b>military court</b>, NOT civilian court.

3) Of the alternatives, indefinite detention is the only legal way to keep captured enemy forces from returning to the battlefield (that’s why we’ve done it in every other war).

History – including OUR OWN history – shows that when combatants escape or evade capture, they routinely rejoin friendly forces and return to the fight. This isn’t unique to bad-guys – the US military has a good list of medals awarded to troops who escaped from or evaded capture, then returned to friendly lines & re-entered combat. In this war, we have a Marine of Muslim descent, who after being captured in Iraq tricked his captors into releasing him to a neutral Muslim country with promises that he would desert – of course when he got there he immediately went to the US Embassy & returned to the Marines. In addition, there are documented cases of released EPWs returning to the fight against us in this war.

- We can’t shoot them – that’s kind of illegal and immoral (Yes, they’d do it to us, but the price of being good guys is, well, being good)…
- We can’t try them as civilians – they’re not civilians, and it’s illegal.
- Releasing them to a foreign country means they’ll be back in the fight against us as soon as they can find a way home (as a Soldier myself, that’s what I’d do to them if I managed to get captured & released alive (fat chance – which is why anything is preferable to capture in this war, but let’s allow the example))…
- (For Taliban captured in Afghanistan) Turning them over to the Afghans results in them being treated as civilian criminals by the Afghan government, and that results in their being released due to the Afghan rules of evidence being ridiculously too limited.

So that leaves the one thing every single nation has done during a war – lock them up in a POW camp, in military custody (a place like, um, Gitmo) until the war is over…

3) The notion that we are in danger of EPW measures being used against US citizens, on US soil & not engaged in hostilities against the United States, for political or other nefarious purpose is unjustified paranoia. We have been at war for over 10 years now, and it hasn’t happened.  Now it’s understandable to hear various revolutionary movements complaining, because at their core you usually find extremists who are willing to levy war against the US to achieve political ends – and who want to make winning that war as hard as possible for the US. But for everyone else, it’s paranoia… Plain and simple…

Personally, I’d say the violent-revolutionary types should be more worried about what we’ll do to them if they actually try to have their revolution – getting captured & held for the duration is the least of worries (compared to being killed by vastly superior pro-US forces, or captured & executed for treason)….

COMMENTS

  • trimulchio

    things that aren’t nation-states or that don’t aspire to be nation-states. I think Taliban fighters qualify as enemy prisioners of war (“EPWs”); I’m not so sure about AQ figures like KSM.

    I think our policy needed more thought.. I wonder how many people involved with setting policy read this: http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/eBooks/Modern_Warfare_by_Roger_Trinquier.pdf?

    More in uniform than civilians, no doubt.

    • Dave_A

      You’re correct – certain actions disqualify a detainee from EPW status…

      This is where the term ‘unlawful combatant’ comes from.

      The conventions are very clear on the subject – a detainee is to be presumed to have EPW status until a status hearing can be convened – at which time those found to be unlawful combatants (for example, terrorists or partisans/francs-tireurs) may be tried and punished under the capturing power’s military law.

      Eg, we are legally required to subject them a specific process, which is the reason for the 2006 Military Commissions Act (which implements said process formally in US law).

      • trimulchio

        combatant” comes from a wartime US Supreme Court case, decided around the time that the Court was saying that you could force school kids who had religious objections to say the Pledge of Alligence.

        The AQ operators who planned and executed the 9-11 acts committed a criminal act. Someone like Jose Padilla, who is a US Citizen, should have gotten some kind of protection through a writ of habeus corpus (unlike the Civil War, this was NOT suspended for the duration). This was acknowledged by Congress when they passed the Military Commissions Act, after the decision in Hamdi.

        In general, I opposed to Star Chambers.

        • Dave_A

          The terms lawful combatant and unlawful combatant are all pre-GWOT, and not of US judicial or legislative origin. That they appear in US legislation & jurisprudence is simply due to the fact that these are the correct terms to use, when classifying persons under the relevant treaties/conventions….

          And the Hamdan case was ‘Technically you didn’t word the suspension of Habeas right, so it’s invalid’. Congress did attempt to selectively suspend.

          I’m opposed to military forces being used to enforce every-day criminal law outside of a declared state of emergency (Katrina, for example) – stuff like shoplifting, robbery, murder, rape or illegal border-crossing.

          But when we are dealing with war-criminals (Which is what state-sponsored, state-seeking, and formerly-state-governing terrorists are under international law) military court is the appropriate venue – in line with the letter & spirit of international law on the subject (the reason that issues involving enemy combatants – lawful and unlawful – are required to be tried in military court, is that combatants should be tried by combatants, not by civilians who do not understand what is and is not legal in war).

  • mikeymike143

    its why those loons spray vinegar in the air to kill ”chemtrails”. LOL

    by the way, nice article. glad ro recommend it.

  • avgjo

    ‘The notion that we are in danger of EPW measures being used against US citizens, on US soil & not engaged in hostilities against the United States, for political or other nefarious purpose is unjustified paranoia. We have been at war for over 10 years now, and it hasn

  • expanding_man

    There is a concern that US citizens can be detained indefinitely without due process pusuant to NDAA, etc. This concern has been expressed by many, including members of Congress. Some members of Congress want to amend NDAA to “clarify” that it cannot be used to detain US citizens without due process. They have sponsored a bill that would do this.

    The amendment won’t become law. Why?

  • conservativerock5

    The entire “indefinite detention” discussion was spurred by a provision in the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act, allowing “suspected terrorists” who are American citizens to be held indefinitely without a trial.

    That is a blindside blow to the Bill of Rights promoted by the scaremongers like Lindsey Graham, and that is what the while discussion is about. POW’s are irrelevant.

  • aesthete

    For now. By the time that government abuses the powers that it’s been given (at least when it comes to indefinite detention of civilians at the sole discretion of the executive) such that it becomes common knowledge, it’s a little too late… ya know what I mean? While I don’t particularly think that our government will lurch to those extremes, it should be acknowledged that we’re still rather unsure of what, exactly, accounts for the stability, prosperity, and security which prevents Westernized governments from the abuses which are common in other parts of the world. (I suspect our stability and prosperity have something to do with those very institutions which have been steadily undermined for the past 100 years — personal liberties, economic freedom, stability of the family unit, rule of law, and a constrained foreign policy, among others. If that is the case, then there is cause for concern, IMO.)

    Beyond making sure that we have the right people in Gitmo, I’m not really too concerned about what we do with foreigners who we are sure are illegal enemy combatants. I’m also not terribly broken up over the fate of folks like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his buddies. If we don’t have any other recourse, eliminating an American citizen abroad in a designated war zone in the course of completing some national security objective is regrettable, but not really what concerns me. More concerning to me is the notion that we will indefinitely detain American citizens domestically at the discretion of the executive, when other options are available. The “tools” developed for the GWoT (such as some of the provisos of the PATRIOT Act) are already being applied to domestic law enforcement contexts, such as the war on drugs and the like, and as a result circumvent Constitutional safeguards. I am more worried about the government using these tools as a result of apathy or to “get the bad guys” in a domestic law enforcement context, than I am about secret FEMA camps or somesuch hogwash — and IMO the extent to which the GWoT has impacted domestic law enforcement is dismissed too easily by conservatives.

    The question that I find myself asking when it comes to the GWoT is how we can be so sure that the war (and thus, the “war powers” granted the executive) will ever end. We’ve been at war with N Korea since the 50s. Plenty of countries have had their democracies effectively supplanted by “emergency” provisos granting power to the executive indefinitely. There is a reason that very few systems modeled after ours work well for countries transitioning to democracy. While I don’t think that the same will transpire for the US, I do worry that we will lose many court protections, much as other developed, democratic countries have eliminated the right to keep and bear arms.

  • Dave_A

    The scare-mongering about ‘we think you’re a terrorist’ spun off of the 2011 NDAA (and revisited in 2012) is a rehash of the scare-mongering spun off of the 2006 MCA.

    The fact is, if you join enemy forces & get captured while attacking the US, you’re a POW, or an unlawful combatant subject to military jurisdiction & punishment.

    That’s the way it’s always worked.

    Now, I’d be a bit more careful on the subject of US citizens captured inside the USA, personally… But mainly because I’d rather try them for treason & execute them (easier to do on the civilian side than the military, and the US has legitimate jurisdiction over it’s citizens in addition to the LOAC jurisdiction for captured persons), than run them through the unlawful combatant process…

    But overseas? I don’t care what kind of citizen you are – if you join the war on the enemy’s side, our first choice should always be ‘Kill’, then ‘Capture’ as a backup plan, as required by international law if you surrender before we can complete option-A…. With exceptions for those we believe can provide valuable information if taken alive, of course…

    Under no circumstances, other than a negotiated prisoner exchange for captured US persons, should ANYONE captured overseas, or ANY foreign citizen captured ANYWHERE be released from detention until formal cessation of hostilities.

    Indefinite detention for captured persons should be the rule, not the exception… Just like it always has been…

  • Dave_A

    Once you take up arms against the US, you’re a combatant. Not a civilian…

    Like most of the hysteria surrounding the Patriot Act (which was almost entirely fiction – there is nothing in PATROT that actually takes away anyone’s rights – all it does is apply existing legal processes available for use on organized crime and espionage rings to terrorisim), there’s simply no basis for it to be used in the ways the opponents claim…

    I am more concerned with the ‘slippery slope’ of trying combatants (lawful or unlawful) in civilian court, than with any ‘Well they could ’round up’ political dissidents’ angle…

    As a Soldier, I can relate to why it’s a bad thing to break the LOAC conventions on this subject – it undermines our argument for not doing the same to our troops if they are captured…

    Which means indefinate nonpunitive detention for lawful combatants, and military tribunals for unlawful ones… No civillian legal process should ever be used, period…

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  • expanding_man

    A federal judge on Wednesday blocked enforcement of the NDAA provision that authorizes indefinite military detention for those deemed to have “substantially supported” al Qaeda, the Taliban or “associated forces.”

    No doubt this will be appealed.

    Regardless, I think the law was poorly thought out. The folks who drafted and pushed the bill did not concern themeselves much with whether it would stand up to court reviews for constitutionality. Now we are seeing that the NDAA is vulnerable to constitutional review.

  • trimulchio

    EPWs, just as some German and Italian Soldiers in WWII were US citizens and were EPWs after capture..

    That’s why I never understood the uproar about killing al-Awaki; how does that differ from killing JEB Stuart at Yellow Tavern? (And, like al-Awaki, Stuart was intentionally killed due to his role.)

    What I can’t agree with is intentionally indefinitely detaining US citizens apprehended in the US without “some kind of hearing.”