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This might not be a diary per se, but I think it could clear up a few things, and actually be fun

By: Doc Holliday (Diary)  |  February 12th, 2011 at 05:16 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

We have seen so many diaries about what it is to be a conservative lately.  We have libertarian-conservatives, social-conservatives, false-conservatives, and even just conservatives typing reams about the subject.  Some of us have been here for years chatting politics, yet still arguing about who is conservative, where people stand, etc.

I have an idea that might at least give the group some insight into each others philosophies, we can take a political test or two and give our results.  If we all take the same tests, and have different results, then we actually will have something substantive to discuss.  One problem with the debates lately is that it is true that “words mean things”; but it is also true that people can interpret words differently.  For example, I can honestly say I am a “libetarian-conservative” in one debate, and I can honestly say I am a “small-government social con” in another.  I know I am telling it like it is in both cases, it is just the context of the discussion that changes the nomenclature.

So, if anyone else is game, I suggest we take some online political quizzes and show our results.  I know there are some good quizzes out there and most are dreck.  The one I find quite informative is the political compass quizz.  This quizz is located here

http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

My test results were economic l/R 6.50 and libertarian/authoritarian -0.92

I know there some other really good political placement quizzes out there, one I took was better than political compass, but I can’t find it right now.  I took a few others and they all said the same thing, I am a conservative Republican, shocker.

I suggest people take the political compass test and post their results.  Also, if you have a link to a good quizz, meaning accurate and relevant, post it and we can take that one too.  At least I will take it and post my results.

COMMENTS

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  • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

    Economic Left/Right: 6.38
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.92

  • carolina

    Economic Left/Right 2.88
    Social Libertarian/Authorian -0.72

    “Independent” range? I found the questions/answers to be too black/white.

    • Doc Holliday

      first real difference. BTW, we all complain about the black/white thing. Those that make these tests say it is for a reason, you have to make a lot of hard decisions and over the long run it shows a pattern. Anyway, this is a pretty well respected test, in fact I think some Brits did it, not American partisans. there is another test out there I was referred to that was good as well, I hope to find it again. Most of them are absurd.

      While researching for this diary I found a test that claimed to be the best on the net. My results were I was 90% “Republican” lol.

      • carolina

        more than once or twice on this test. If I had selected the “strongly” as opposed to the just plain agree/disagree……. I imagine my L/R score would have been doubled to the “6″ range. I’m not in a “strongly” mood right now. ;-)

        • eastbaylarry

          Some seemed off point just a tad. If there is another test out there I will take it also.

          Economic Left/Right: 2.50
          Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.51

          Does anybody know what the ‘national average’ would be?

          • Doc Holliday

            many claim it is a test done by libertarians to make people think they are libertarians. Yet they show the averages of tens of thousands of test takers and they say most are liberals. The test is here

            http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz

            for fairness, the wikipedia entry about the quiz is here

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Smallest_Political_Quiz

            I am huge libertarian in this quiz, that is why I chose the political compass quiz here, because I find it more comprehensive. there is another quiz out there that impressed me even more, I got it from a major political blog, it was quite in depth. I will keep trying to find it and will post it when I do.

          • Doc Holliday

            is they are supposed to make you uncomfortable. That is why I brought up the test idea in the first place. We all love nuance here, the best tests, take it away. Anyway, you are not a test result, the test result is a reflection of the test, not you. It is either valid and accurate, or it is not.

        • Doc Holliday

          I don’t strongly agree unless it is late at the bar or we are talking football! lol.

        • carolina

          My Left/Right score jumped to 5.88

          The social lib/authoritiarian score: 0.00 (for real!)

          • Doc Holliday

            I think the ‘strongly” amplifier makes a lot of sense. I only “strongly” cared a few times myself. I have tried some religion tests and if you make one or two changes on purpose, it will change your denomination. But if I am honest, we not bias, I will be “darned” if it did not pick my denomination.

          • carolina

            no matter WHAT the test score. That’s why I fugured the “strongly” selection mattered. The only difference between the first score and the second was the choice of “strongly” answers more often.

            Maybe we should all take the MMPI and really get to ‘know’ each other. ;-)

          • Doc Holliday
          • Jack_Savage

            A 600 + question assessment that evaluates you on a series of scales. It is freakishly accurate and almost impossible to game. My favorite question was “I sometimes hear voices”.

            My wife is in the helping profession, and as a help to her in grad school I took every assessment known to man (including the MMPI) so she could practice. The only condition was that she not share the results with me, because I really did not care and it was too late for her to get out of the marriage any way. Happily, she didn’t seem to want to.

          • Doc Holliday

            I took the eharmony test just for fun and it basically said I was a “jerk”. but I did get a lot of people of the other sex wanting to chat with me. NO, I did not respond, that is not how I roll lol.

          • carolina

            something like that. Some companies used to use it before hiring. It used to be the most recognized exam of its kind. (maybe still is?)
            I know the nuclear power industry used tests of this nature to weed out arsonists and other unstable types. I actually knew a guy that ‘flunked’ this test and did not get hired (arson issues).
            The test I liked best tested E/I – N/ – T/F – P/J
            Extrovert/Introvert – INtuitive/? – Thinking/Feeling – Perceptive/Judgmental
            That is more of a self-knowledge exam. We all did that exam during some class in the MBA program.

          • carolina

            Jack – what is the other exam I just described? You must have taken it?

          • lineholder

            out the intuitive scale when I took that test.

            Strangely enough, that is typical of me, and it drives my family and just about everyone that I know NUTS!

          • carolina

            I always figured it was because I’m a pisces. – grin -

          • lineholder

            it was for team-building training for an employer…start up…new facility….training in the UK….loved it.

            All of the other team members were Data-analyticals to the hilt and I was the Intuitive-perceptive. They would evaluate all this data and make decisions strictly on the data, and if I picked up on something that needed to be considered I’d say “wait…what about this…or what about that”.

            Most of the time they would ignore me, and then it would turn out later that I had intuitively picked up on a legitimate issue that wasn’t necessarily recognized within the scope of the data that was being presented.

          • carolina

            same blind spots. That group needed you!

          • lineholder

            that’s almost the same thing the trainer said!!!

          • Doc Holliday

            something like enti I am guessing but in rings a bell.

          • carolina

            We are a lot alike!

          • Jack_Savage

            I also took it, and thought it was also very accurate, but the mental health professionals pooh-pooh it as being not thorough enough – the MMPI is the preferred assessment. Businesses use the Meyers – Briggs frequently to put together teams and to make sure the personality of their employees fit their job.

            I was one of three people in a 100 student class that was an ENPF – most were ISTJ’s.

          • carolina

            have a good mix of different types – especially for creative problem solving.
            I was an ENTP-J (50/50 split on the P/J). I also recall a lot of ISTJ’s in my class.
            As I recall, EN__’s were the most likely entrepreneurs.
            And, thanks for filling in the one I didn’t remember: S for Sensing
            And for the name: Meyers-Briggs. :-)

          • lineholder

            I was an INPT, strong on the N and P…the kind of person who can step way, way outside the box in a heartbeat. Uncanny ability to do problem-solving.

          • nilram

            It’s INTP. You’ve got the last two letters backwards. I’m an INTP as well.

            Two of us outside of a university, what are the odds.

          • lineholder

            I got the letters transposed and thanks for the correction.

            Add to it that I’m a realist rather than idealist and my views on moral issues…I’m basically your run-of-the-mill thorn-in-the-flesh who offers water when others want wine!!!

          • Finrod

            ..

          • Jack_Savage

            Two women and myself, I was the only one who got the MBA.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
          • Doc Holliday

            not 600 questions. I forget my type, but it was kind of like Clint Eastwood’s “man with no name”, that is my story, and I am sticking with it :)

          • Raven

            are that I was Heavily “I” and that the raters said my actions didn’t follow my results.

            There’s no test for: “Leave me the hell alone; fine, here’s how you do it; fine, do it your way; told you it wouldn’t work, idiot; shall I take over now?”

          • Christine (Trelaina)

            It was the test I liked the best until this year when I took the StrengthFinders assessment. I need to find a way to take that one a second time when I’m not at work and stressed about my team…but overall very accurate and telling about my personality.

          • haumea

            …Keirsey’s “Please Understand Me II”.

            Pretty phenomenal book on temperament.

            INTJ here, btw.

  • meg_m

    Economic Left/Right: 6.25
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: .67

  • gekster

    Your political compass
    Economic Left/Right: 6.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.72
    I don’t have a clue to what it means.

    Don’t care what others say about the test, Doc, it was fun. :)

    • Doc Holliday
      • gekster

        and my friends use a small g. ;)

        • Doc Holliday
  • http://www.spartanburgteaparty.org karenmartin

    Economic Left/Right: 5.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

    • http://www.spartanburgteaparty.org karenmartin

      How did I get a Negative score on libertarian? weird

      • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908
      • Doc Holliday

        it means you are more libertarian than the median between libertarian and authoritarian. And again, this is only on social issues. You are very libertarian/capitalist/conservative on economic issues.

        I call myself a libertarian conservative and I only had a -.92 on libertarian, that makes you more libertarian than I am.

        A test is as only good as the creator. If you try the famous “world’s smallest political quiz? I bet you land in the libertarian quadrant.
        http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz

        • http://www.spartanburgteaparty.org karenmartin

          and got
          Your PERSONAL issues Score is 30%

          Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 100%

          • Doc Holliday

            I was personal 80 percent
            economic 100 percent

            I think this test is too short, political compass is better. But taking this one ads more context in how results can change by the type and number of questions. I think it has been proven scientifically the more “tough” questions one gets, the likely a true pattern will evolve.

            some say the Wolds Smallest Political Quiz is a libertarian recruiting tool, but supposedly only a small percentage, like 22 percent of takers end up in the libertarian area. Obviously my result was way in the libertarian zone.

  • chbroussard

    Econonic Left/Right: 3.0
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.87

    Do I need to sign up for counseling?

  • Menlo

    I think that puts me on the left either way:
    Economic Left/Right: -2.25
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.38

    The problem is this categorization of “social” and “economic.” I don’t know of anything that is not “social” since the whole thing deals with society and people. What is not social? Although a more meaningful term and a subset of the former, “economic” is still too broad a categorization in today’s world to warrant consistency.

    Using their logic, people who take extreme views on multiple issues could theoretically end up in the center. I also think society and the issues we face are changing such that these two “sides” as they have traditionally been defined are changing. With regard to people in developed nations today, comparisons to people half a century or more ago are like comparisons of apples to oranges.

    I don’t think I really fit anywhere on their spectrum. Perhaps I’m in a different dimension.

    • carolina

      LOL

      • Jack_Savage

        Economic right 6.25
        Authoritarian 1.28
        Occasional jackass 7.50
        Will be your cell mate instead of the guy bailing you out 10.00

        • Doc Holliday
    • Doc Holliday

      most here who have taken the test. You might have qualms about the methodology but the score difference shows something. I like your libertarian score btw :)

      • Menlo

        I suspect that number is moved largely if not entirely to the left by my responses to the questions dealing with nationalism.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
        • Doc Holliday

          nationalism is certainly a more right wing idea, one I strongly agree with, considering my nation.

          • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

            The examples of Stalin’s Socialism in One Country and Mao’s Socialism with Chinese Characteristics would seem to disagree.

            Nationalism is “reactionary” because it opposes pure class warfare, which is what the Marxists rely upon. So, they had to declare fascists to be right-wing.

          • Doc Holliday

            but two examples with very good answers.

            Stalin- was pointedly turning from Leninism/trotskyism, something that failed. He figured he better prove Communism could work in on country first, then export it.

            The Chinese have always been insular i.e. The Great Wall of China,and Chinese discoveries that were never known in the Western World and Chinese inventions that happened at similar times as they did in the West, but not because of a transfer of ideas.

            having said that, the test shows how we see questions differently. When I think of anti-nationalism, I think of European leftists who think Nationalsim leads to ruin i.e WW1

          • Menlo

            Would that logic apply to North Korea too?

            I don’t think there is anything wrong with nationalism (until people start confusing it with Christianity). It’s just not a sentiment I share. I thank God I don’t live in quite a few other countries, but I do not believe the United States (or perhaps any other nation) is, at least right now, the best.

          • aesthete

            though it is easy to see why one would mistake it for that. It is more about seeing your country as worthy of defense or some action on one’s part simply by virtue of it being your own country, and having a strong identification with one’s country.

          • Menlo
          • Doc Holliday

            I pretty much agree with Aesthete’s definition. I do think our country is “best” however. yet at least I have traveled to many other countries and I don’t want them to be us. Some nations in Europe are just fine the way they are, I would not wan them to change.

            But American’s are naturally nationalistic, we hold our hands over our hearts during the Anthem, we get tears in our eyes hearing God Bless America and seeing the colors flapping in the wind.

            Another part of my “nationalism” is my reverence for the military. I can also respect a soldier from the UK, Australia, even Germany etc. who has sworn to defend his land right or wrong.

            Of course there are limits to never questioning your country’s motives, but to me they are extreme limits. I love my country as much under Obama as I did under Reagan. I am not prescribing you or any other to join my views, but my views are chiseled in stone. I trust America will do the right thing because I believe in America We are not always right, but how less right it the enemy?

          • Menlo

            I don’t identify with most Americans (or any nationality), and I have no emotion for America. I do still believe it is the government’s job to protect Americans’ interests, but that role doesn’t carry over into my personal life.

            It seems awkward to personify a country or to use the pronoun “we” in this context. Certain people and groups might do things or feel a certain way, but they are not a country. I am not a “we” with respect to what some or most people around me do.

            I don’t love America, but I’m thankful I’m not somewhere worse. Still, given the money and opportunity, there are other countries I would likely move.

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            Menlo, you and I and nycenterright are the ONLY people on this thread who ended up in the lower left quadrant. So I thought that maybe you and I would have similar mindsets. Evidently not, though, because I love America passionately!!! Partly because of what aesthete talks about — you love something just because it’s yours, like the way I love my local community just because it’s mine, I love the prairie landscape that I live in just because it’s mine, etc. But also partly because I really do think America is special. Very few countries were founded — as ours was — on a foundation not of ethnicity or ancestral ties, but on a very particular set of ideas — AND they happen to be very, very good ideas.

            The whole concept of ordered liberty, embodied in a constitutional republic, is a tremendous gift America has given the world. I remember hearing of an Italian family visiting Philadelphia 2 years ago whom some friends of mine happened to see at the Liberty Bell. The father of the family expounded about the bell in Italian to his children, telling them what it meant, with tears in his eyes and awe in his voice. Remember that Neil Diamond song, “They Come to America”? I don’t care for Neil Diamond much, but that song expresses great truth.

            Like you, Menlo, I don’t want to see the whole world “Americanized,” at least not in terms of culture, esp. pop culture and a lot of our currently decadent values. I agree with you that I want France to be France and England to be England. Do you know that song, “O God of All the Nations,” set to the tune of “Finlandia”? I think it contains a great truth — we each love our own homeland, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

            Yes, I love America. And although I love and delight in every state I’ve had the blessing to visit — from Montana to Louisiana, from California to Maryland, Utah to Florida, etc. — and each have their own special things to cherish, I will always cherish above all the state that I was raised in, and the state that I now call home. Just because they’re mine!

            I think I ended up in the lower left quadrant because I’m pretty negative about some of the global super-corporations. I consider Cargill, for example, almost as much my enemy as, say, Venezuela or Pakistan. Yes, Cargill, Nestle and Monsanto have abused and continue to abuse people, especially in poorer countries. Yes, Cargill and Monsanto are stealing the genetic inheritance of Asian and African farmers.

            I don’t know what the answer to that is. I certainly do NOT agree with the Leftists/Progressives that the way to make big corporations be responsible and decent is to try to control them with an equally big — or bigger — government!! (And maybe that’s part of the reason I came out leaning “libertarian”). I tend to agree with Gandhi and Fritz Schumacher that SCALE is important; bigness, in and of itself, can create problems. That is why I believe in small business, small government, and local control of education, environmental protection and other things.

            Still, I’m surprised that I came out in the lower left quadrant because one of the very, very few questions that I answered with a “strongly,” one way or another, was on abortion. I STRONGLY feel that it should be illegal to kill one’s child except in the infinitesimally small number of cases where there is an almost certain chance that a mother will — physically DIE — if the baby is carried to term. (Myself, I’d rather go ahead and risk death rather than kill my own child — but I think the LAW would need to allow for women whose lives were in grave physical jeopardy to have that option.)

          • Menlo

            I have been ordering Cargill’s maltodextrin for years. I’ve actually been considering a switch to a rice-based variety from their competitor Grain Processing; now I’ll be looking into both their practices.

          • Menlo

            Big corporations and big government usually go hand-in-hand. It really does sound good in theory. In practice, more government will more often than not help corporations to be even more irresponsible.

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

            The Left has always wailed and howled about Republicans and Big Business — but Wall Street was solidly Democrat in their giving in the last election cycle, and Obama’s got a whole slew of monster corporations to slavishly do his bidding — from Pepsi, Google and GE to all the ones he’s now “bought” such as GM, Chrysler and AIG.

            Menlo, I take it, then, that you are a farmer?

            You may be interested to know that evidently Monsanto’s got Obama in THEIR pocket, I just got this in my email today:

            Here’s a brief recap of the Obama administration’s appalling cave to Monsanto and the biotech industry in just the last 3 weeks.

            1. Monsanto?s Roundup Ready GMO alfalfa – Jan. 27th, 2011 – Over the objections of hundreds of thousands of American citizens, the White House approved this unnecessary crop – despite the fact that 93% of alfalfa hay grown in the U.S. does not use herbicides and that genetic contamination with conventional, non-GMO and organic alfalfa threatens the livelihoods of tens of thousands of family farmers and the food choices of more than 50 million organic consumers.2

            2. Monsanto?s Roundup Ready GMO sugar beets – Feb. 4, 2011 – Defying a court order to complete a proper Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) the USDA announced that it is granting a ?partial? approval of Monsanto?s GMO sugar beets, giving farmers and seed dealers the clear signal that final approval is right around the corner. By the time the EIS is expected to be complete, sometime in May, farmers will have already started planting their crop for the next year since the USDA says it gave the green light to avert a ?sugar shortage? in the U.S. Sugar beets comprise some 54% of U.S. sugar found in everything from soda, other beverages, candy bars3

            3. Syngenta?s Enogen Alpha-Amylase Corn for Ethanol – Feb 11, 2011 – This new GMO amylase corn product contains an enzyme that allegedly allows an increase in ethanol production with a reduction of natural gas and water usage, thus saving ethanol plants money. While caving to the biotech and ethanol industries, the Obama administration basically ignored the concerns of leading food manufacturers who fear that if this new industrial corn cross-pollinates with or is accidentally mixed with corn used to make food products, it could lead to crumbly corn chips, soggy cereal and a host of other food processing disasters.4

            Despite being comprised of more than 43 powerful companies such as General Mills, ConAgra Mills, ADM Milling and Quaker Oats, the Obama administration completely dismissed the concerns of the North American Miller?s Association, comprised of some of the largest food manufacturers in U.S. in order to favor the biotech and ethanol corporate agenda, both industries with checkered pasts and products of dubious benefit.

            More info at FoodDemocracyNow.org, and you can sign a letter of protest to the Obama administration and Sec. of Ag. Vilsack at:
            http://action.fooddemocracynow.org/sign/update_obama_goes_rogue_on_gmos/

          • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander
          • Menlo

            I consume it myself. I also like to do my own kitchen experiments with some of the more unusual and innovative products these companies put out.

  • Bill S

    +2.5
    +2.0

    • lineholder

      to the center

      +1.18
      +0.38

      Not sure I know what that really means and not sure I want to know either.

      Interesting test, though

  • redneck_hippie

    +4.12
    +0.41

    on the right hand side, of course

    Must have been the spankings my Mom gave me with her hair brush LOL.

  • texasgalt
  • nessa

    Economic Left/Right: 5.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.49

    I’ve taken this test before, it changes dramatically with more “strongly agree/disagree” answers. I didn’t try to pad anything by stretching my answers this time. For visualizing your spot on the political spectrum it is much better than the standard two dimensional (left/right) scale.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Economic Left/Right: 1.62
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.54

    • Bill S
  • azaeroprof

    Economic Left/Right: 7.12
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.79

    Halfway between Margaret Thatcher and Milton Friedman. I can live like that.

    Also, pretty close (just a little left) of mbecker. But the 2D graph doesn’t allow one to see the “Palin” axis, where he and I would be much farther apart :)

    Below is my attempt to show my graph. If you don’t see a graph there, my approach obviously didn’t work! :P

    • nessa

      Like the rest of civilized society. Bet ‘beck didn’t answer a single question that wasn’t either STRONGLY agree or STRONGLY disagree. But that’s how you get to be a curmudgeon!

      • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

        were the economic questions, and I did hit most of those.

      • azaeroprof

        mbecker and I are only a few spots away from each other in the big square parking lot!

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      And on the Palin axis we’re probably not so far apart as you think. You are able to provide a thoughtful analysis of Palin and I respect that. You also don’t find the need to include the HTML code for burning incense in your Palin comments.

      • azaeroprof

        responding to this comment. I was off doing some transcendental meditation….

        …hommmmmmmPalin…..hommmmmmmmPalin….hommmmmyoubetcha!

        ;)

      • Raven

        Even the digital stuff…

  • Tbone

    4.38 Right
    2.05 Auth.

    I didn’t read all the crap, but by definition, this must be the perfect score.

  • azaeroprof

    OK, so I’m an engineer, I have to make graphs! Unless someone beats me to it, tomorrow I will make a plot showing everyone’s scores together who has posted here, along with the average.

    • Tbone
      • roscopico

        6.00 / 1.79

        I know I’m further right than that, but many of the questions were objectionable.

    • Doc Holliday
  • Kenny_Martsolf

    Economic Left/Right: 6.25
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.92

    • Doc Holliday

      I used to be that libertarian right, I am getting a bit protectionist as my Chinese coffee makers and grinders keep breaking. I have you on economic right by a teeny bit, but am down to -092 libertarian.

  • nilram

    To quote George Harrison in his Simpsons appearance, “It’s been done before.”

    Anyway:
    6.75
    -0.82

  • nycenterright

    Economic L/R: -2.62
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64

    Bizarre. According to the test’s designers, that puts me pretty far to the left of Obama. Which is just stupid.

    Flames/interrogation welcome! ;-p

    • Raven

      Just where someone personally feels he would fall. I would ignore that.

  • LisaDe

    I did it,

    Economic: 5.75
    Social: 0.10

    I landed right on the line. I really hope this won’t be held against me in the fulture! : )

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister
  • sharonmcp

    Economic Left/Right: 2.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.26

    • Doc Holliday

      or maybe Barbara.

  • barleycorn

    I’ll be darned if I’m Angela Merkel!

    Economic Left/Right: 3.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.44

    :-(

    • Doc Holliday

      these days, other than that guy from the Czech Republic.

  • http://teapartisan.wordpress.com Socrates

    I had difficulty answering a lot of the social ones, because they said always this or never that, and it was a subject I felt strongly about. The exclusives sometimes pointed me in the wrong direction.

    Economic Left/Right: 7.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.41

    • Tbone
    • Christine (Trelaina)

      I may try it again just to join the fun…but I recall last time I took it that my score reflected my refusal to agree to a really extreme statement.

    • Doc Holliday

      but the theory as I understand it is they are supposed to give you answers you “don’t like”, they are supposed to put you in a place where you are forced to say “for” or “against” when you don’t want to, you want to explain yourself more and how situations can vary.

      Once they have made you make those tough decisions enough times, a pattern develops that if you are honest in your answers, you can not manipulate. I would guess if the test was even longer, it would be more accurate.

      btw, some Brits made this test, and there placement of modern political figures are just their guesses. That is the least reliable part of the site for sure.

  • http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

    And it was fun to text despite what others have said. Well, “other” anyway ;)

    • http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim
  • concap

    Economic Left/Right: 7.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.03

    Would it be wrong to say that, not using the strong answer, shows a lack of conviction in ones ideals?

    Ten question quiz
    100 econ
    80 social

    • Doc Holliday

      you were much more libertarian in the compass test than was I. Yet we tied in the worlds smallest test. One the first test I used to land right on Milton Friedman, over the last few times I have taken the test (maybe once or twice a year), I have moved slightly less socially libertarian.

      • concap

        why some people in RS won?t let me play in any reindeer games?

        Do you find my score consistent with my post?

      • concap

        I score this is:

        The higher econ number over 5, the better.
        The closer you are to 0.00 on the social line the better.

        The higher the negative number on the social line, the closer you are to an anarchist.

        A number between +5 and -5 on the econ line makes you a centrist, a bad thing.
        A number between +5 and -5 on the social line makes you a centrist, a good thing.

        Centrist-A person who weighs both liberal and conservative ideologies and often takes a moderate view on any given issue.

        The higher the positive number on the social line, the closer you are to being an authoritarian.

        Authoritarian definition, favoring complete obedience or subjection to authority as opposed to individual freedom.

  • AceInTX

    Economic Left/Right: 5.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.56

    • AceInTX

      as opposite the answer I believe they were looking for and it skewed my results.

      This test is silly as a result

      • Doc Holliday

        as I have said many times, it is just a test. I think many will find the results are pretty close to what they think about themselves. The models are based on reasons, perfect reasons? who knows or cares?

        I have taken many tests that gave absurd results, or worthless results. I have not found this to be the case with this test. In fact, over the years as my views have tweaked a bit here and there, my test results have changed.

        But one thing I agree with you about Ace, the test is silly if you don’t take it seriously. When I take it, I give what I believe is the best answer that reflects my opinion. For example, it would not be likely that someone feels equally strongly about each question. It is up to you to think about what you truly feel strongly about, what you feel less strongly about, etc. and by “you” i mean, the test taker, I know you and a few others seem to have a phobia towards this test, for what reason I don’t know.

        btw, your results did not surprise me, did they surprise you?

  • Brian Hibbert

    Economic Left/Right: 7.12
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.62

    That said, I’m not sure I’d use this test as an absolute guide to anyone’s political ideology. It’s at best an indicator, though I’ll accept anyone labeling me as having beliefs similar to Milton Friedman’s.

    • Doc Holliday

      That is one reason I was looking for another test of similar repute. Anyway, as far as this test goes, we are political neighbors with Milt. :)

  • Christine (Trelaina)

    Economic Left/Right: 7.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.23

    Interesting – usually I lean slightly libertarian on these tests.

  • tcgeol

    Economic Left/Right 3.75
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian 0.82

    Some of the questions were impossible to answer with any accuracy given the way that they were written, but it is still fun. I’ve taken this test before, but I don’t remember my answers.

    There is no way that I could be this far left on economics, though!

    • Doc Holliday

      well maybe that lol.

  • azaeroprof

    Here is a plot of all the test results listed as of 9:20PM ET on 2/13/11. The green circle represents the average of all 42 entries. I’ll leave the interpretation to other! :)

    • azaeroprof

      let’s try this just a bit bigger.

      • Doc Holliday

        any chance you can put our initials on it? I bet you have better things to do so I should not ask for this. the points without the names are informative for sure about the group. Thanks for doing it.

      • Raven

        I was a tad late to the party, as were a few others. Can you do it again, please?

        • azaeroprof

          I’ll try to get an updated plot out later this morning. And I’ll check into the initial labels to see how hard that is to do.

          • Raven
    • Brian Hibbert

      If I had to guess, they’d be a little to the west and north on that chart. Say -7, +4

      Anyone know if they’ve done a similar compilation of thought on their site?

      P.S. I’m not surprised at the results here.

      • catt

        mostly seem to be in the lower left corner. I didn’t go to the kos site I just googled for “political compass” and “site:dailykos.com” and looked at the first couple of pages that came up. People had scores in their signatures … mostly around -6,-6 or so I guess. Translation: Ralph Nader.

        The quiz is pretty bogus. Is it realistic to have long time redstaters including at least one admin almost exactly in the Obama/Hillary/Edwards triangle? I don’t think so.

        • Raven

          It is highly unlikely those are their actual scores rather than just someone’s personal opinion of where they’d fall.

      • Doc Holliday

        seen a lot of

        -6
        -7

        type of ratings when i slummed there.

  • kestrel

    Economic Left/Right: 5.0
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.67

    I don’t have time to read what it means right now, but it was fun. Answering all the Qs wasn’t easy. I would have put “don’t know” sometimes if I could have.

    • Doc Holliday

      glad you enjoyed it. We have similar results.

      • kestrel

        I was surprised I’m not further to the right than I am, and disappointed that I’m not more like Margaret Thatcher whom I admire. I wonder if having, or not having, a leader’s personality affects a person’s authoritarian/libertarian score, since the chart shows most prominent politicians as being decidedly authoritarian. I don’t think of myself as libertarian, though I know I share some views with them. Overall, based on reading the comments here, I’d say many people did not end up as far to the right as they expected.

        On some questions, I felt like I needed to know what the author was thinking of. For example, on whether I consider my liberty infringed by counter-terrorism efforts, I don’t have a problem with the Patriot Act, which some on the right do, but I have a big problem with the invasive TSA make-work patdowns and scans. And yet this airport man-handling is only psuedo-counter-terrorism anyway. You know? (There was no question on the quiz about whether I feel infringed by needless and offensive policies intended to humiliate and subjugate free and innocent people.) Doc, I think you’re right that multiple make-you-think questions are intended to mesh for a representative final score. I’ll try to do Aesthete’s quiz, but the questions look long and complicated. If everyone’s turning out libertarian there, I suppose I would as well.

        • Doc Holliday

          I can tell you this, this quiz is older than the Obama administration. So if one loved the Bush Patriot Act, they might want to put disagree.

          Personally I think that would be gaming the system though, what I mean is you should not think too politically, just the answer that best fits with your beliefs and feelings.

          I remember that question and I have switched from disagree to agree. Did Obama’s TSA cause that? maybe, Or maybe Obama and Big Sis showed me that government does intrude too much and could simply do the job better with less intrusion(including under Bush). Put another way, intruding on innocent Americans lives is the easy way out, our security should protect our freedoms not take them away, and we should expect nothing less. And remember, my answers over time have only switched from disagree to agree. I hope that shows my opinion is nuanced because I want freedom but know we need security. Putting strongly agree/disagree when you don’t really think it through will mess up the results in my opinion.

          I don’t take this quiz a lot, that would be foolish in my opinion. I take it once or twice a year and even though I always end up around the same area, in the libertarian/Right quadrant, there has been movement.

        • Raven

          And even most of those aren’t indepth enough.

          None of them show when someone will stay out of it if possible, follow a better leader than themselves, lead when needed, and laugh when incompetents screw up because they refused to follow or even listen to advice.
          That would be all a single person.

  • pamela1631

    I took the test four times. Which was frustrating due to how I read the question and that none of the above was not a selectable answer.

    Then the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition popped in my head.

    Needless to say it was a very unproductive use of time.

    • Doc Holliday

      ferengi what?

      and if you took it four times, why no results? Now, THAT seems like a waste of time.

      • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

        you have to know who the grand Negus is.

        • Raven

          Because their step-father went crazy and abandoned the Ferengi way and the Rules…

      • Raven

        Gene Roddenberry went to Milton Friedman for advice on writing them… :)

        Not really, but you should look them up. You do at least know what a Ferengi is, though, right?

  • Finrod

    That puts me a bit more conservative than most here and quite a bit more libertarian than most here. I don’t really find that surprising.

  • keepourrepublic

    Economic Left/Right: 7.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.79

    Worlds Smallest Political Quiz
    100 economic
    90 social

    The Political Compassis is marked by wrong questions, false choices, and an impreciseness of terms. So I was surprised to see that I still somehow landed to the right of most of the people who took the quiz.

    I prefer the simplisity of the Worlds Smallest Political Quiz because it asks questions that are yes, no, maybe without the potential agruments of terms and for the fact that it sticks to domestic issues.

  • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil_truth

    2.75 left/right
    -2.05 authoritarian/libertarian

    More libertarian than I’d expected, Somewhat surprised that most here are on the authoritarian side of the axis, as that would seem to play into stereotypes about conservatives. Or perhaps that reflects the biases of the test-makers.

    My modest score on the left/right axis seems reasonable as I have become more skeptical of doctrinaire “theories of everything” – especially theories that postulate strictly rational human behavior, which is probably why my Van Mises test scores put me mostly in the Chicago camp.

    Indeed, I’m concerned that the impersonality of the Austrian interpretations bears a more than passing resemblance in method to “scientific socialism”.

    Or maybe it’s this skepticism that’s also put me on the libertarian side – the “road to hell paved with good intentions…” with respect to government interventions.

    • pilgrim

      The location on the north-south axis between libertarian and authoritarian puts most people here real close to the equator. I do not know anything about “scientific socialism. .” Ludwig von Mises was just about as far removed from the socialist economic school as you can get.

      • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil_truth

        My reference to “scientific socialism” refers to the tendency among Marxist thinkers to view history and human behavior as arising from impersonal forces, which they call “scientific”. The Austrian statements in that quiz struck me as having that same atmosphere of impersonality and cold-blooded rationalism.

        The content of the Austrian School, of course, is diametrically opposed to Marxism – but the samplings in that quiz suggested that both would seem to be rather closed systems of thought.

  • Doc Holliday

    here is a link to their FAQ

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/faq

    I probably should have just linked to the homepage here http://www.politicalcompass.org/

    in the first place. I guess I didn’t trust you guys to navigate to the quiz lol.

    btw, this is not Doc’s quiz, it is just the best one I could remember taking, one that has been around a long time, and one that is respected.

    I think a quiz defines itself more than it defines the person who takes it. But since there are thousands of these out there, I can honestly say I think this quiz defines itself as worth taking, nothing more than that.

    There is another one out there that is really good, I am still looking for. It was recommended by a non partisan group and was similar to political compass, but with a bit more nuance and more questions. BTW, I still think nuance can be overrated, it is a way of saying a lot without really saying anything. :)

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    … is that it was written by people following the Stalin party line of defining fascism on the right. It just doesn’t hold water unless you make some really strained readings of questions.

    For that reason I never seem to get the same score twice.

    • Doc Holliday

      and communism have more in common with beliefs “in the middle”. Both pretty much require a dictator and human subservience to the state.

  • earlgrey

    I ended up 2.62 and -0.15. Does that make me a part of the mushy middle?

    • Doc Holliday

      but well within the group rankings as a whole shown on the chart by aezeprof. Just read The Road to Serfdom twice and call me in the morning :)

  • kstone

    left/right=6.25
    auth/lib=1.95

    seems to fit me.

  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    I wound up with an economic/left-right score of -1.25
    and a social/authoritarian-libertarian score of -1.59.

    Y’all aren’t gonna kick me off of RedState, are you?

    Hmmm…. I guess I must still have in me a lot of the Gandhian that I was 30 years ago!

    Or… maybe these tests are just kinda silly…

    • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

      … I just finished reading Bastiat’s “The Law” yesterday!

      Maybe I should move Hayek up a few notches on my “To Read” list, though?

      • Doc Holliday
  • Raven

    • Raven

      Tried to embed the image to my results, but I guess I got the code wrong…

      I always end up slightly authoritarian because of my answer to “Must there always be someone to give orders and someone to take them?”
      Because that’s just how it is. There must always be leaders and followers.

    • Raven

      Austrian: 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 10
      Chicago: 2, 5, and 9
      Keynesian: 3, the Interest rates question.

      I have no structured education in economics.
      The Marxist answers are obvious. They are, without exception, hostile to the West and Capitalism and Profit.

      • Raven

        http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz_result?e=90&i=60_90.gif&p=60

        I got 60% Personal, 90% Economic, landing me lower right section of the Libertarian.

        • Raven

          1) Yes
          2) Selective Shut-down, but I’ll take what I can get. Any cuts are better than no cuts.
          3) I don’t know about impeaching Obama just yet for it, but impeaching his cabinet members and reprimanding him would be nice. Impeaching Obama means “President Biden.”

    • Raven

      She took it once in high school in government class and managed to get extremely Left (-7 to 8) economically and about the same social as now.

      Amazing how the people one surrounds oneself with can affect that sort of thing…

  • runner12

    Left, given the way the questions are phrased. Also, I am loath to let any quiz define who what I believe, because each person is an individual and individuals are innately unique. But in the spirit of fun, here is my score:

    Economic Left/Right: 6.25
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.00

    I also took Raven’s quiz and got:

    Personal Issues: 60%
    Economic: 90%

    • Raven

      I got it from upthread. I went crazy and read every post.

  • azaeroprof

    Here’s the colorful updated collection of all our results.

    And here’s one with each data point labeled with some abbreviation of the person who reported it. This didn’t work well with the colored background, so that’s why this just has a white background. Hopefully you can decipher the abbreviations to figure out whose is whose!

    If you want to see a bit bigger version of either plot, you should be able to just click on the plot of interest.

    • Doc Holliday

      thanks for taking the time to do that. I wish I had the skills to put that together. The only sad part is how average I am lol.

    • Raven

      “Jack of all trades,” and all…

      No way I could be made of awesome like mbecker on this. But, slightly above average is typical.

    • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

      I’d say that average is being moved a bit by the outliers.

      Got to be a way to fix that. I just came up with a weird middle of the night idea that the point with the lowest mean log distance to each point might be interesting.

      But it’s 4am because CPAC Plague has thrown me off, and I’m going to bed. :)

  • BigRedConservative

    I’m some sort of raving Paulinista. No doubt the first pro-life, pro-Iraq, paleoconservative sort of Paulinista. Evidently the website knows more about me than I do.

    Economic: 7.88
    Social:1.13

  • Ender

    I seem to remember my L/R to be around +8-9 and L/A close to 0…

    Now, it’s:

    Economic Left/Right: -1.50
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56

    What a difference it makes to stop thinking in a partisan manner :) I am still way to the right economically, but my answers are not absolutist anymore. And the chart with all the Dem candidates being on the Right economically is bogus – I am way to the Right of them, and almost never agreed with anything they said.

  • Flagstaff

    Economic L/R: +5.12
    Social L/A: -0.15

    • Flagstaff

      I’m very, VERY average.

      • Doc Holliday

        so amazing; average isn’t so bad.

      • Doc Holliday
  • Doc Holliday

    this should work in a post

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/test

  • JadedByPolitics

    Economic Left/Right: 6.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.05

  • Doc Holliday

    lol, at least on economic issues you are a hippie compared to me. but seriously, it shows how close we really are on things.

  • pilgrim

    Economic Left/Right: 5.25
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.46

  • JadedByPolitics

    …..

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Doc Holliday
  • Doc Holliday

    ok, no more comments, we need more results, this has been interesting.

  • Doc Holliday

    I would like to see these results, wouldn’t the rest of you guys/gals? btw, I would like to see everybody’s it would at least put a context to all these arguments about libertarians, fiscons, socons etc.

    So far I am the most libertarian economically and socially, but only a few good souls have participated, and we are all very close actually.

  • Scope

    little political test, just so you can knock where they come out on a dumb dang test? I, as well as many others, don’t need to take a “test” to know where they fall on the political scale.

  • pilgrim
  • Doc Holliday

    but know cheating, you have to answer everything honestly. I have actually taken this test several times over the years, my latest score moved me to the left of my hero Milton Friedman, I used to land right on his spot. My social libertarianism is actually loosing steam.

  • Scope

    waiting for any results from me. As I said above, this is nothing more than a little game. An online political test, really? I would have thought that you would believe that there really aren’t any correct or incorrect answers.

  • Scope

    to want to see certain people’s “test results.” Why? So you can take the particular people to task for what they believe, as you did pilgram above? Sorry to see that some are falling for your little game.

  • Read Chesterton

    I’m like the cartoon character “Ziggy” when it comes to having a good time with stuff like this.

    The one Ziggy that stayed in my mind is captioned “Being me is no fun, and I should know, because I had fun once.’

  • Doc Holliday

    you are knocking me. I thought this would be fun and it is not a “stupid test”. The results so far show everyone who has participated is extremely similar politically.

    Now if the test included social skills, I doubt you would be anywhere near the rest of us.

  • Doc Holliday

    Baker is a good man, and the joke as you know was that you were the most moderate of all us right wingnuts :)

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Doc Holliday

    it is just that they really don’t know you yet.

  • Mary Beth

    Economic Left/Right: 5.25
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.64

  • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior

    I happened to notice this book is being advertised right now on the site:

    http://www.definingconservatismbook.com/

    Thank you.

    ColdWarrior

  • Doc Holliday

    at least in the internet world. The only angry person here is you Scope. I commented in a humorous (you would not get it) manner to those that took the time to read my diary and spend 10 minutes on the test. It is my diary, I figured a few comments were warranted.

    Honestly I don’t care where people score in the sense how I would feel about them. For example, I would likely get on with a marxist/socialist than I would with you. You are an angry person. I am sorry for that, I wish it were not so. I have no ill feelings towards ANYONE on this site, including you, But the truth is the truth.

    Now, this diary was for informative reasons and for a bit of fun. If you choose to keep posting attacks, the moderators SHOULD do something about it. Of course they should have done something about it a hell of a long time ago. I am not going to respond to you. Feel free to trash my diary if you must. I write about one a year, this was for fun and possibly to bring different “factions” together.

  • Finrod

    .

  • Scope

    If many or any didn’t know me yet, they have not been reading Redstate. I’ve been a pretty active poster for more than 2 years. How much time does it take to get a feel for someone, and, their opinions or ideas? Your assertion is more than a little rediculous. What you are really trying to say is that people really don’t know just how evil I am, but, you will all see just how terrible she is sooner or later. I am happy to be lumped with others that you find offensive as well. The “you know” after your comment gives it all away. It’s like saying they all have the plague “you know.”

  • powertothepeople

    Economic Left/Right: 9.25
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.64

  • Xasteius
  • Doc Holliday

    you came in here to start a fight for no reason, I gave you a well deserved barb. I really do hope good things for you, and yes I really do think you have a mean streak. but I did not write a diary about that, or you and you lied when you said I insulted Pilgrim. You used that as an excuse to push yourself into the discussion and attack me and my diary.

    I left the sight not long ago for over a month over these stupid petty arguments. I don’t want to be a part of them. Do me a favor and just stay out of my way, I am trying to enjoy my time online with others who are trying to do the same thing.

  • Doc Holliday

    YOu must be the only one who said we should eat the poor lol. I didn’t know one could score that high on economic issues, now I am ashamed :)

  • Doc Holliday

    and find them interesting. I am sure a few billion people are not doing that, now you confirm it is a few billion and 1.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    in the abstract. According to the minds that constructed the test(s), what does 6.5 mean? What would be the score of a perfect I/R? What does -0.92 mean? A negative number? Why do test constructors try and be so cute? I mean any test could be devised to make it simple, and thus more likely to be participated in. Hell, I’ve already spent more time on it than I prefer and I haven’t even answered on question! smile

    But seriously, what are the top and bottom numbers on the test?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    not going to take the test. Yes, such tests can be fun, but I’ve been thru this exercise so often that it no longer is for me. There are only so many hours in the day.

    Moreover, it doesn’t clear anything up. The fact is that we will always have to be about the business of making clear what correct policies should be followed and upon what principles, if, for no other reason than that potential voters attain the age of 18 everyday.

    I will not return to the business of advocating policies and actions based principles with proven results, most of which can be called conservative in the modern day sense of the word.

    God bless. Great diary and GC was the first to highly recommend!

    smile

  • bigdaddydawg

    The first test offered mostly questions I didn’t want to answer at all. I scored:

    Economic Left/Right: 6.62
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.26

    I scored 82/100 on the Mises Meter:

    Austrian: 1 4 5 6 8 9 10
    Chicago: 2 3

    And I think I was tired (it’s late here) on Question 7, because I came up ‘Keynesian’ on that one. Must not have read it carefully enough. I mean, c’mon ‘Fear the Boom and Bust’ is my favorite music video!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Doc Holliday

    It is just a freaking 4 quadrant political test. It has been taken by probably over a million people. You might notice that most here have very similar scores. And those with different scores are just as interesting and valid. This is a famous test, I have known about it for years, it has been done to help people align with candidates from US races, European politics, and historical thinkers.

    The top score is whether you are to the left (progressive) or right (capitalist) on economic issues.

    the second score is whether you are libertarian or authoritarian on social issues.

    the test gives examples once you take it of where they would place historical figures ala Marx, Stalin, Milton Friedman, and others. the second test I offered, the world’s smallest political quiz ads bush, thatcher, Merkel etc.

    I appreciate all who did this for what it was worth. It proved my theory that many who bicker over hyphenated conservatism are really mostly on the same page, they are just more comfortable with their own terms. To those that wont take the test, fine, but to me that makes you a de facto libertarian and almost libertine lol. It is just freaking test.

    Now you guys know why I don’t write diaries and why I need to take time away from this site now and then.

    And remember, I said anyone can post a test they find and I will take it and post my results.

  • carolina
  • Doc Holliday

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

    and if you go to the main site

    http://www.politicalcompass.org/index

    there is an FAQ and lots of other information

    one thing I find interesting is they put no modern political leaders on the libertarian right. I kind of like solitude, in the cowboy way.

  • concap

    the way I score this is:

    The higher econ number over 5, the better.
    The closer you are to 0.00 on the social line the better.

    The higher the negative number on the social line, the closer you are to an anarchist.

    A number between +5 and -5 on the econ line makes you a centrist, a bad thing.
    A number between +5 and -5 on the social line makes you a centrist, a good thing.

    Centrist-A person who weighs both liberal and conservative ideologies and often takes a moderate view on any given issue.

    The higher the positive number on the social line, the closer you are to being an authoritarian.

    Authoritarian definition, favoring complete obedience or subjection to authority as opposed to individual freedom.

  • Read Chesterton

    You called me out by name, so I posted my stupid opinion.

  • pilgrim

    It is strictly about if you are a capitalist, socialist, or a Marxist. You only answer 10 questions.

    My score is: 75/100 None of my answers were from the Keynsian or the Marxist school.

    http://mises.org/quiz.aspx?QuizID=5

  • JadedByPolitics

    what I need to live up to :)

  • JadedByPolitics

    …

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

  • Doc Holliday

    You got me beat on economic issues. I new I should not have said that Oliver twist could have some more lol.

    btw, wish I knew how to post my quadrant. I was just to the left of Milton Friedman, I used to land exactly on his spot.

  • lineholder

    make sense, but how does it correlate to the practical?

  • catt

    For comparison … consider where the people who made that quiz put the 2008 primary candidates on their grid:
    http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008

    For fun you can see which candidate you most resemble … I’ll try to embed the image … never tried this before …

    I’m around +3 on the left/right scale and -6 on the auth/lib scale.

  • nilram

    Check this out:
    http://archive.redstate.com/blogs/bham/2006/oct/19/the_political_compass#comment-336206

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    You can make custom screenshots and it’s FREE!!!!

    Just what you’d expect from a guy with a 9.12 economic score. :-)

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    “beating” him. You see, this* (see below) is why I am being so coy, plus the fact that we have had so many of these exercises.

    To “beat” someone with a “better” score assumes so much about the relevance of the questions (and on a broad scale they may), but the “this” I really object to is the nature of such an exercise that is inherently UN-conservative, because conservatism is not an ideology. Conservatism seeks to apply experience with reason to come to correct policies.

    Moreover, I still cringe a bit to define a person with one word which is why I prefer to characterize issue choices as left or right, but

    I will take the test, BUT before I ever see it, let me suggest three questions facing conservatives today that I think illustrates the problem with such tests in general, if what we desire is useful information:

    1) Should the GOP push for major cuts in entitlements before 2013?

    2) Should the GOP actually pursue major budget cuts that would justify the wave election victory, shouldn’t they NOW prepare the nation ahead of time for the inevitable veto by Obama and government shutdown by pre-empting the DEM/MSM machine and advocate a selective shutdown of only non-essential govt services or should they merely go for a relatively small $100B cut that can persuade a few senate dems?

    3) Should the GOP move to impeach Obama for refusing to comply with court orders voiding ObamaCare and declaring his oil-drilling moratorium to be void?

    more later

    seriously, I do have a toothache and may wait till Sunday to take the test.

    thx to becker for the scale

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Well, since the site doesn’t provide commentary on the scoring I’ll have to guess. My guess is that I’m strongly free market, strongly anti-government messing with markets or companies and I’m slightly more authoritarian than libertarian in that I don’t have a huge problem with anti-terrorism laws (general statement) or drug laws (again, general statement). In the specifics, I’m probably a tad more libertarian than the chart shows up.

  • Doc Holliday

    can’t add anything to that. Unless you charge me for the screen shots lol.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908
  • aesthete

    He’ll just put ads up on the page linking to his site and his products next time. Seriously :)

  • eastbaylarry

    72/100

    I only had one “Keynsian” answer, (What causes the business cycle),

    I had not heard of “Chicago” economics before. Is it also known as something else?

  • pilgrim
  • JadedByPolitics

    6 Austrian 2 Chicago 1Keynesian 1 Keynesian/NeoClassical….so what does that make me :)

  • Doc Holliday

    I am not sure I am in the best state to focus, but as I said in the diary, I would take any test offered.

    I scored a measly 61/100

  • powertothepeople

    score 85/100

    Austrian Answers

    1 3 6 7 8 10

    Chicago Answers

    2 4 5 9

  • Finrod

    7 Austrian answers, 3 Chicago answers, 0 Keynsian or Marxist.

    Again, I’m not surprised at my results.

  • StandardCandle

    Economic Left/Right: 5.88
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95

    Are You an Austrian?
    (38,908 have taken this quiz.)
    Your score is: 84/100

    But in all honesty, this is sociologist work at best… and we all know that sociologists are the worst kind of people to invite to a serious discussion… but these profiling tests make for great discussions at barbecues.

  • pilgrim

    The Austrian school=Ludwig Von Mises

    You probably gave the answer to what causes the business cycle from what is taught in school

  • aesthete

    Basically, classical economics synthesized with some Keynesian stuff.

  • Doc Holliday

    I mentioned I would be interested in your score because of you heavily religious views, I would be interested in several people’s scores. I did not “call you out” in a negative way.

  • pilgrim

    The 6 Austrian and 2 Chicago are all capitalist. The 2 Keynesian are just a residual of the stuff you were taught by libs in school. No worries.

  • pilgrim

    You could get your 61/100 by giving Chicago school (Milton Friedman) answers. It is not measly to side with Friedman. I always took you to be a Milton Friedman type.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    1) the extent of a safety net for the truly needy that Reagan and DeVine favor

    2) what is the best policy to pursue re reconstruction, etc of nations after we remove enemy regimes so as to try and prevent that nation from soon again becoming our enemy

    3) the extent of what states rights ought to be in economic affairs given the failure of the articles of confederation and given its modern day equivalent in state health ins monopolies and the extent to which one is consistent in their supposed states rights for economic activity if they favor ending state monopolies in health ins

    no more later

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    Solas: 5.0
    TULIP: 5.0

    But it looks like y’all were taking a different test. With my MR hat on, the test is badly flawed on so many levels that the 2 numbers it generates mean ALMOST nothing at all–except that those who got their score actually thought it worthwhile to complete the test and those who didn’t–didn’t.

  • Doc Holliday

    for your quadrant. again, I am not saying this is the be all test, just the best I remember at the moment. there is another one that was mentioned in political circles as fair and accurate I took once, if anyone can think of it/find it, feel free to tell us.

  • Doc Holliday

    very close. I used to be more libertarian until I got sick of crappy Chinese products.

  • Doc Holliday

    and some Austrian, one or two were Keynsian gag, phew!

  • Doc Holliday
  • Doc Holliday
  • Doc Holliday

    next time I ask the group to do something, I will know who to specifically exclude because a ten minute political quiz is beneath their unquantifiable transcendental auras. You know, I have taken many political and even religious tests and usually laughed at the results. Most of them are crap, this one is not. But the point is if you take a test, it is not like some native cultures that think a photo will steal your soul. You take it, and move on. Wow, am I really explaining this? Is it really necessary or are certain people in on a joke I am not?

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    1. I’d be OK with cutting entitlements in this Congress. I’d absolutely demand that they cut more from the rest of the budget, maybe another $250B.

    2. Yes, see above. I think $250B additional would be a good starting point.

    3. No. No impeachment unless it’s demanded by the Democrats. It’ll never get through the Senate. I doubt if he could be impeached if he were caught on film delivering nuclear weapons to the Iranians.

  • Doc Holliday

    It has nothing to do with his supposedly doing “better” like on a test at school. I was joking that I was mad that I was not the most right wing capitalist bastard around, get it?

  • powertothepeople
  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    First, sorry about your toothache.

    1. I am opposed to any safety net at the federal level.
    2. I don’t have a good answer for that. See John Bolton. I’d support anything he said.
    3. I favor free markets across state lines for all insurance.

  • zroxx

    1) Just a little bit of socialism, right? No thanks, American citizens can take care of each other without bureaucratic assistance, and would end up managing the process more efficiently – delivering more care for less money.

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx
  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    Most researchers would be thrilled to get the 80% or so response rate you’ve gotten here, and not find it necessary to demean those who have reasons for not participating.

    I had some time today to get partway under the hood of the test in order to substantiate my claim that it is badly flawed. And yes, part of that time was spent reading the FAQs at the test’s site and some of their other material.

    The attempt to map an attitudinal segmentation, using as many measures as were asked, onto a pair of directional axes is completely unjustified. The test that aesthete put up recognized the need for at least 5 segments, although most of us here–and tellingly, the Political Compass docs themselves–would acknowledge that even more strikingly different clusters exist. The 4-quadrant design strongly implies that a given large population–eg US voters–would be evenly distributed around the origin, but that is clearly not the case: nearly the entire 2008 field is in a single quadrant; more hilariously still, probably 30% of regular RS contributors find themselves TO THE LEFT of the L/R divide between the 2 parties. Whoda thunkit? It would appear that RS is not only well on its way to weeding out those troublesome social-authoritarians, but is making inroads in recruiting people to the left of the current administration! I’m not sure if that’s what you were intending when you opened with:

    If we all take the same tests, and have different results, then we actually will have something substantive to discuss.

    A proper segmentation approach is to let the points of a correlation matrix fall where they will, demarcate the apparent clusters, isolate the driving measures, and then weight each measure. The single-quadrant distribution of the US spectrum is a clear indicator that that approach was not used here. Whether it was originally calibrated that way in the UK, or weights assigned hypothetically (“child spankers want authoritarian government”) is not necessary to determine here–although I suspect the latter–what is clear is that the test is not helpful for an in-house discussion of the 2011 US landscape. (Yes, I know the test’s authors describe their reason for not re-centering the goalposts in the FAQs, but the British standards–even if neutrally analysed–simply cannot account for our peculiar alignments.)

    Speaking of pretended neutrality, my hope for such on behalf of the authors is not helped by the likes of this darling observation (under the 2008 US chart):

    One of Palin’s evangelical supporters reminded us that Obama’s background was as a mere community organiser. Well yes, but so was Jesus, while Pontius Pilate was a governor.

    Several have bemoaned the lack of either a DK or neutral choice, and their complaint is justified. Other than the poli-sci hotshots who know every race and proposition, most voters–even among conservatives–know, with Rumsfeld, that there are things they don’t know, and that it is wisdom to acknowledge such ignorance. Again, in MR segmentation, there nearly always has to be a “grazers” segment for those who will be satisifed with almost anything. To pretend that most voters, on many issues, have a strong commitment because they are forced into an even-choiced directional with no understanding whatsover, simply does not reflect reality. There are politically inactive people; good research would note that fact rather than determining a priori that they cannot really exist.

    Along the same lines, the pairing of an agreement scale with BOTH a concept and a qualifier of degree is … insane. You can only meaningfully measure one thing at a time. For example, one question ended “sex outside of marriage is usually immoral”. Since my strong conviction is that all sex outside of marriage is always immoral, the only honest answer for me was “strongly disagree”, but I’ll bet a dozen scones that would have pushed me in the opposite direction from the reading intended by the authors. Far too many of the questions were flawed that way, forcing one to read into the authors’ minds in order to pick the “right” answer.

    As a word of caution about reading too much into the 20-point result scales themselves, I did a little test. I went through the test 4 times, each time using a single rating throughout (e.g. all Strongly Disagree), to get a glimpse at whether the test uses, as you implied, “patterns”, or whether it uses, as seems more likely, the more standard set of weights per question/segment (ie axis) combination–and I’m convinced the latter is true. Here’s the results:

    +0.00/-4.36 … straight Strongly Disagree
    -0.25/-2.41 … straight Disagree
    +0.38/+2.41 … straight Agree
    +0.00/+4.36 … straight Strongly Agree

    Of course straightlining doesn’t produce a “real-world” result–except for someone with a multiple-personality disorder–but it does demonstrate neatly that at least on the Lib/Auth axis, a standard segmentation algorithm is used. I’m not quite sure why the L/R low-scale agreement scores aren’t balanced–perhaps an odd number of questions or some such.

    Having done the above exercise, one can then isolate particular questions to get a sense of their weighting. As an example, I used the “Strongly” ratings and isolated a couple questions: changing the one about spanking shifted the score by 0.51; the one about abortion shifted the score by 0.41. Changing both, however, rather than shifting the score by an expected 0.92, shifted it by 0.87—which I cannot account for. But back to reading too much into your results, it’s clear that some questions, at least, if answered in a way not expected by the authors, could shift your score noticeably from where you might expect to find yourself.

    That issue of weighting, of course, proves prickly. It seems clear that many of us at RS, if not precisely single-issue voters, nevertheless assign weights to the issues we face, think about, and vote on. While I would not be surprised to find that a majority of us think that spanking our children is necessary, and as a corrolary that our freedom to do so should not be surrendered, I would be very surprised to find any of us who felt that spanking was a more weighty issue than abortion. Yet the test authors don’t see it that way. Any ideas why?

    Finally, back to the “this won’t work in the US” complaint. I’m not a poli-sci guy, so I can’t make the pointed observation that Neil did about the “Stalin party line”. But it is very clear that the test–not surprising for its British source–fails to take federalism into account at all; one must either want no governmental involvement in life or total involvement. But there is more than one branch on that tree, and the test’s inability to account for our distribution of authority seriously aggravates its other faults. making it more useful for entertaining diversion than meaningful discussion.

    And yes, the jocularity line was Fr. Mulcahy’s singularly ineffective version of “lighten up, guys”.

  • Doc Holliday

    -6? how is that possible? btw, I seriously doubt Mike Gravel was as right as Milton Friedman but just a touch more libertarian. first flaw in this test, they need a 5th sector, for nuts lol. They don’t even list ron Paul as libertarian, they messed this up. I do agree almost all major political leaders are in the authoritarian quadrant.

  • Newton E. Mchuckney

    God have mercy on our souls…

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    upper right quadrant.

    To truly clear things up requires addressing actual policy choices on the table today.

  • gop2010

    4.50 I/R, -2.50 auth/lib.

  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    I’m Dennis Kucinich?!?!

    This test is WACKO. Seriously, the way it compresses nearly ALL the candidates — people as different as Barack Obama and Duncan Hunter — into the same quadrant?!

    The test was devised by a bunch of Brits, right? It’s skewed by definition. To them, we Yanks are all a bunch of right-wing neolibs.

    I’m not buying it!

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    Had there been more that problem would have been rectified. And a few practical economics questions would have had the same effect.

  • Doc Holliday
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    permanent majority party status to the Left. Reagan was always for, as he called it, a floor below which we would not allow the truly needy to fall, given the modern industrial state. Before that, people were on farms and so could survive recessions due to the fact that 80% of Americans grew their own food.

    We can’t go back to the 18th and early to mid 19th century and we can’t win elections advocating the elimination of all federal aid to the poor, hungry, disabled and elderly poor.

    Can we advocate a transition over time to radically re-vamp federal programs to better identify the truly needy and lower amounts to be mere supplements? Yes.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    a puny $38-100B.

    If we are careful in HOW we push for entitlement reform now, then I would be for it. We need to preempt the attacks from the MSM on hurting the elderly.

    What about calling for Obama’s resignation over his betrayal of UK nuke secrets to Russia coupled with his violation of court orders?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • acat

    .. but I’ll play along.

    This reminds me a little of Facebook quizzes where the results depend on one or two of the dozen or more questions asked. Some of the wording was very .. stilted. Sounded like it’d been written by a lawyer. (no offense to GC)

    That said, first run-through, -2.21

    Probably because I interpreted some of the “should government support the arts” questions to be local issues, and recognize that if an area with a heavily artisan population wishes to vote themselves a museum or gallery, it’s their choice. (libertarianism in action, that)

    Mew

  • aesthete

    when I take the test. Dunno if that would pan out in real life, though; Friedman was quite miniarchist in many respects (and I am not).

    I share GC’s concerns about the test: the first question asks “If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.” I know that the “rightist” answer would be “disagree”, and I disagree with the protectionist measures implied by “agreeing” that globalization should serve “humanity”, but I genuinely don’t care about how globalization affects trans-national corps as opposed to others, and consider relatively unrestricted free trade to be one of the greatest helps to humanity ever devised. That, and the silliness behind the idea that voluntary tranactions must “serve” anyone but those participating in them, make the question rather useless in ascertaining much of anything. If I didn’t “cheat” in the test, I think I would have ended up being a pot-smoking hippie in my results :)

  • fedsocdan
  • aesthete

  • Scope

    If I understand correctly, the proposed cuts are to items requested in Obama’s last budget request, that was never passed. Accoring to Paul Ryan, this morning he said that he doesn’t know what the new Obama budget will look like until he receives it tomorrow, but from what he has heard it does increase spending. I tried to see Obama’s last budget request in full, line by line, but, the only info I could find was at the WH website where they talk about certain projects they would like to fund, but, it does not contain any dollar amounts per project. Likewise, the House spending cut proposal only gives numbers for particular departments, but, again does not in all cases say what projects they are cutting within those departmental budgets. On the Obama budget, in the International organization budget, they don’t say much of anything about the US funding going to the UN, which we know if huge. I say cut the legs off the UN, drive them out of this country that they don’t seem to like, and send them packing. I think many would agree with that. There are other things such as that that would save money, and, not harm some possible essential services, or areas that can in fact come back to bite the Republicans.

    I’ve read two different articles with the philosophy being that if the cuts are huge and massive, and, all at once, the plan has far less chance of making it through the Senate. If it doesn’t pass the Senate, the spending goes back to the 2010 levels, at least temporarily, and we are saving nothing. Ryan this morning did use the dreaded C word, compromise, and don’t you believe that in order to get any significant cuts anywhere, what does finally pass will be far less than what the “Pledge” promised. The Republicans are too wussie to allow a government shut down, and we can’t live in eternity on 2010 budget levels. What are you thoughts on that line of thinking.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    we’re obviously not going to get the major reform required in this Congress. Personally, I’d like to see both SS and Medicare totally privatized with no government involvement at all but that’s a way off.

    What I’d like to see is a small step in both SS and Medicare that essentially puts both “on the table”. I don’t have a recommendation for what that step might be, but even if they raised the retirement age one year it would at least be a signal. We’ve got to address these programs and in order to do it, we’ve got to start.

    No, I would not call for his resignation. I would turn the House Oversight Committee loose on him with subpoenas though.

  • zroxx

    I could just as well say that any party that favors some welfare activities being performed by the government cedes their principles to the Left.

    2011 is not the 18th century so it doesn’t advance your position to pretend that we’d be “going back”. We are more prosperous now than ever before and I would be shocked if you did not concur that American citizens are more generous now than ever before. We have the communications infrastructure to identify and coordinate care of those who are incapable of caring for themselves – without asking that the government take money from everyone and divert it to those that a bureaucrat – susceptible to political bias and the corrupting influence of coercive power – deems are “worthy”.

    Can we advocate a transition over time to eliminate federal programs and leave the resources and responsibility with citizens who can more rapidly and accurately identify the truly needy and maximize the impact of those resources? Yes.

  • lineholder

    who genuinely need our support. But I don’t have the slightest idea of how we can go about establishing a cost-effective provision of that support, especially when we have employees of various government-funded agencies who encourage applicants to violate the law.

    To provide the amount of oversight that would be required to correct this would be very costly, wouldn’t it?

  • lineholder

    736 million dollars in mandatory contributions

    This is an interesting article about Susan Rice and the ramp up planned for this spring to further contributions to the UN.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    to lead that charge as it is the President that is the leader on foreign policy and diplomatic relations.

    On the budget, I think any strategy that does not immediately prepare Americans for the inevitable government shutdown is doomed to fail and to betray the wave election.

    I favor major cuts of from $100-250B less spending than in the previous fiscal year, as was the pledge. The pledge was not dependent on anyone’s proposed budget. It was to return to at least the level of spending in 2008.

    I am still thinking of what is the best strategy on entitlements before 2013, given the risks for 2012, that Dick Morris has well outlined.

    I favor immediately acting on the basis of the reality of Judge Vison’s order that rendered ObamaCare void as of 14 days ago, which means calling on Obama to stop breaking the law in its implementation NOW. I favor waiting until the March court deadline for Obama to move for a stay before ins cos, states or congress brings a contempt action. I do not believe that Judge Vinson will issue a stay.

    more detail in columns in the works now

    a toothache and legal work for paying clients is slowing me down

  • lineholder

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5itvY_P3_09U0SCY4tnJjKZ2SnYGg?docId=CNG.b13b9413a1411115f42090d589442065.9c1

  • belcatar

    3.62 / -3.13

    I took the test twice…the first score went down from a 4-something, but the second score remained the same.

  • Michael Dugas

    Perfect!……If I do say so myself.

  • belcatar

    On the “are you an Austrian?” quiz. Most of my answers came up as “Chicago” answers, though I’m not quite sure what that means.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    federal bureaucrats has merit. I favor raising the retirement age for all those now under age 55 and lowering the benefits. I favor eventually means testing soc sec and making it only for the elderly poor. I favor reinstating welfare reform..

    My Reagan-like support for a safety net for the truly needy allows for major reform and cutbacks.

    But advocating elimination of even a minimal federal safety net is political suicide and bad policy, imho, in a modern industrial state.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I would be happy to consider the political and economic viability of plans to replace the federal safety net over a long transition period. But still think that to suggest the total elimination of even a minimal fed role would not be wise on all counts.

    Americans have always been very generous, but the existence of large cities teeming with the unemployed that don’t have food from their own gardens presents a delivery system problem that risks riots and chaos in recessions that I think is best dealt with via federal safety net floor below which we don’t allow the vulnerable to fall. That is a quote from Reagan.

    I also think that America is a tipping point from which the abyss can’t be avoided unless the GOP controls all branched with huge majorities.

  • Scope

    That was a very interesting article. Where is John Bolton when you need him? You mean there really is a person named Susan Rice? You never see her, you never hear much about her, but, low and behold she comes out of the woodwork in time to put her very large tin cup out. I’m very happy to know that the Republicans are addressing the high costs of doing business with a very shady and shadowy organization. I still say cut them off at the knees, and let them go the way of the League of Nations which was also useless. I don’t believe I heard the first word from these keepers of the peace as to Egypt. I guess they were banking on Obama to speak on behalf of them, and that he did.

    I do remember hearing a statement from one of the House committee chairpeople from the International affairs section saying that she was moving to cut funding for the UN Human Rights Division, as they condemned us for Human Rights violations, thanks to Clinton with her panties in a bunch over the AZ immigration law.

    Thanks for the link, it was a good read.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Expect the worst and hope for the best

    Exercise your right to ignore comments you you don’t like

    Don’t imagine in your mind how others should respond

    Consider your own behavior in responding to the diaries of others and remember those times that you gave surprising responses that question the assumptions behind their diaries…this will make you more tolerant.

    God bless

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/01/17/selective-shut-down-strategy-better-than-debt-ceiling-bluff/

  • Scope

    would have recommended that you bite down on a clove where the toothache is. There is also that stuff they put on babies gums when they are teething, don’t know what it is called. Do you have a dentist appointment first thing tomorrow? In the absence of anything else, how about a shot or two of some very strong spirits?

  • lineholder

    on 2/11/11 if you care to read it. I had thought about putting some of this up in a diary post but have some pressing issues to attend to over the next few days.
    So I’ll just post the links and those who are interested can read it for themselves.

    http://usun.state.gov/briefing/statements/2011/156503.htm

  • lineholder

    greatly appreciate specifics about timeline for stay of PPACA. That’s brought a ray of beautiful sunshine to my day.

    Thanks!!!

  • Scope

    I did read the diary before, and thought it was excellent. After reading it again, one of the things I picked up, again, was the reference to the gimic of adding a reference as to how it is constitutional. I know that you don’t favor moving forward with any legislation as to Obamacare, as it is indeed now VOID, but, some Republican was going to present legislation as to tort reform caps for medical professionals. One of the Tea Party members, Ted Poe TX, who was a former judge fought it and said he would not vote for it because it violated state constitutions, and therefor was unconstitutional. It appears that even though a majority of the population want tort reform to lower healthcare costs, which hopefully would be a part of any future Republican healthcare reform bills, may not make it through because of the “is it constitutional gimic” that you referred to. Unintended consequences? or rookie Rep. idealism?

  • acat

    Just sayin’, Paris is too good for most of ‘em… and Haiti would benefit from the additional influx of cash. (trickle-down or, as it was also called, voodoo economics)

    I also agree that the people need some educating about what a selective shutdown means and doesn’t mean. Even a simple SNL-worthy example, “America, we have a choice – do we pay the gas bill or the electric bill or the rent-to-own guy? If we don’t pay the electric bill, we don’t need the TV we’re renting to own anyway, but if we don’t pay the gas bill it’s gonna get really cold….”

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    making a small step on the retirement age for those under the age of 50-55.

  • earlgrey

    Reading in NRO Foster indicates that we wasted too much political capital on the 100 billion, that could have been spent on entitlement reform. I see his point there.

    The key thing that I struggle with is whether we can make it to the next Congress given our precarious fiscal condition.

    I don’t want the freshman high fiving over the 100 B while we coast our way to insolvency

  • Scope

    the high unemployment which is predicted to be here for years to come, there is little that private people and charities can do to help the truly needy in any financial way. To depend on private charity to help the elderly and disabled is like one of them falling out of a ten story window, and hoping that someone is on the ground to catch them. The problem with Obama, and some before him is that the definition of truly needy has now become someone who can’t afford a big screen TV. I would agree totally with random checks on the government workers cases that are being approved for payments. How many people do you know that don’t fear an IRS audit, even though they are done randomly, and many of those people have never cheated.

    As to entitlement reform, I couldn’t add another thing to-

    “I favor raising the retirement age for all those now under age 55 and lowering the benefits. I favor eventually means testing soc sec and making it only for the elderly poor. I favor reinstating welfare reform..”

  • lineholder

    if we use qui tam pro principles to combat Medicare/Medicaid fraud, could something along the same lines to be used to combat welfare fraud?

  • acat

    To ask it another way, would Gamecock get on board with turning the management of all but Social Security (i.e. medicare, foodstamps, etc. etc.) over to State control, with the Fed retaining the roles of tax collector and (one layer of) quality control?

    Could we win elections by pointing out the savings that shifting administrative responsibility to the States (without cutting benefits) would bring?

    (What savings? There’s a huge overlap between Fed and State (and county and muni) aid programs. By cutting out the Fed, we reduce the overlap and eliminate one layer of one-size-fits-all paper-pushing.)

    Mew

  • Doc Holliday

    when SS was enacted, it started paying at the age you were supposed to die, certainly a way to keep the system in the black. Life expectancies have increased a lot, the numbers of elderly have increased, the mathematics are pretty simple.

  • lineholder

    by those in the 40-50 age group right now. With threats to 401Ks and SS at bankruptcy on principle, they are looking for options.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    at some point we should pick an age and kill social security. Maybe 40 or 45. Same for medicare. There is no rationale for the government to be in the “retirement” business.

  • lineholder

    I’m definitely having one of my “out of the box” days.

    If qui tam pro principles are applicable, how far does it go? If government employees are the ones violating laws, can qui tam pro be used?

    Gotta go, studying for law test today, answer at your convenience and I’ll find it. Thanks.

  • pilgrim
  • Scope

    was educated in the art of speech spinning at the Soros Center for American Progress. I really liked when she said there was a poll that showed that 72% of Americans support paying our UN peacekeeping dues in full and on time. Who did they poll the Obama Czars? or the Democrats in Congress? As I said, she came out of the hallowed halls of the UN building just to extend her large tin cup. She is no Condolezza Rice, and I didn’t always agree that she was the most effective.

  • acat

    And the only reason I know that is the movie “Marathon Man”… but it’s true.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    constitutions incl recently in GA when a unanimous sup ct ruled as such. I had to agree. The right to a jury trial inherently means the jury’s right to determine damages. I would favor attempting to amend state constitutions. But we can do other things, as in raising the standard of evidence required to prove negligence and admonishing judge’s exercise their discretion to dismiss cases.

    My objection to the new House requirement that each bill contain section identifying the part of the Constitution that allows same, is that absent educating the public on how Soc Sec and Medicare were not constitutional when passed and that we only allow same now based on Common law vested interest and reliance over many years, that we risk giving away a major tool in limited government. Because if we concede the constitutionality of soc sec and medicare on the basis of the 1930s and 40s sup ct opinions that based same of the taxing power and the general welfare clause, then we won’t have any constitutional defense worth a darn on anything the libs want to do and won’t be able to argue for cutting based on const grounds.

    Now, I would probably agree to amendments to the constitution to justify some of what we have done the last 70 years, but I also must be consistent on the rule of law.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • aesthete
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    sometimes write 3 paragraph reviews of movie trailers! smile..yes, the trailers!

    Madison Avenue is calling?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • lineholder

    if it goes to state versus federal, how would this impact unions (public sector)?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Page 386 in You Can’t Go Home Again (1934) in a 1998 edition…

    The trouble with the so-called “intellectuals” was that they were not intellectual enough, and their point of view more often than not had no point, but was disparate, arbitrary, sporadic, and confused.

    To be an “intellectual” was, it seemed, a vastly different thing from being intelligent. A dog’s nose would usually lead him toward what he wished to find, or away from what he wished to avoid: this was intelligent. That is, the dog had the sense of reality in his nose. But the “intellectual” usually had no nose, and was lacking in the sense of reality. The most striking difference between Webber’s mind and the mind of the average “intellectual” was that Webber absorbed experience like a sponge, and made use of everything that he absorbed. He really learned constantly from experience. But the “intellectuals” of his acquaintance seemed to learn nothing. They had no capacity for rumination and digestion. They could not reflect.

  • acat

    Okay, the serious answer is that Reagan took the right approach with the air traffic controllers’ union… but that it’ll take another Reagan to get to that with the rest of the unionized government office drones.

    If a State allows unionized government office drones, as Illinois does, then .. the distribution of aid is a union job.

    If a State does not allow unionized government office drones, as Wisconsin seems to be moving toward, then the distribution of aid is not a union job.

    My bet is that the distribution, like just about everything else, will work more smoothly with less union involvement.

    To answer a little more completely, ttrade guilds are not unions, trade guilds make sense for some career tracks where limiting the number of workers in the trade is just good economic policy, but unionizing of low-skill or no-skill (or fungible-skill) workers makes very little sense. Why should a grocery store checkout clerk at one chain be unionized while at another chain they’re not? It’s a fungible skill… so are most government office skills…

    Was that the question, or did I go off on a tangent?

    Mew

  • acat
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • aesthete
  • LisaDe

    I thought your mother brought you up much better than this!!

    Soilent Green! Ahhhhh. After watching that movie, I could never eat guacamole ever again. It was out of my head, and here, here it is again! AHHH!
    : )

  • Raven

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk47saogI8o

  • Doc Holliday
  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    a sweet guy like you could possibly be a bigger bastard than me.

  • aesthete

    I’m drawn to classic movie references like a bear to honey.

  • Doc Holliday

    but if you ask me to do a little dance, we are going to have a problem.

  • zroxx

    “Large cities teeming with the unemployed” and risk of “riots and chaos”? C’mon, what is this, Thunderdome or America? In my opinion you lack faith in the people of this nation and have a distorted take on the willingness of citizens in urban settings to come to the aid of their neighbors. Let government stop taxing them and doling back out what it doesn’t waste to wherever the bureaucrat decides, and instead let people keep more, and then spend more directly on the well being of their own community.

    Re: frequent references to Reagan to support your position, hey I liked 40 quite a bit but he was still wrong on this.

    We disagree on the magnitude of change, yet we agree on the direction and that is fine.

    But the reason the Left keeps beating you bloody on these issues is that once you surrender the principle and agree that some government directed socialist welfare programs are not just good, but necessary, you’re left arguing about how much and for whom. We see the result of letting politicians answer those questions when they’re using other people’s money in the form of massive debt, a behemoth government, and an attitude of dependence on a welfare state that you now echo.

  • zroxx

    … there is little that private people and charities can do to help the truly needy in any financial way …

    In 2009, Americans put out $303.75 in charitable giving. That is enough to give 6,060,000 people $50,000 for the year. That’s a level of giving with high taxes, what might it be if we lowered the tax burden on everyone by 10% or more?

    Don’t pretend there isn’t enough charity and wherewithal from American citizens to tackle this, and to get the job done better than the government.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    that reaped the whirlwind of unemployed thousands in cities that had left the farm. No one has beaten me or Reagan bloody on anything. You are the one with the extreme position, not me. I am for major reform. You are the dreamer and the burden of proof is on you and those that wish to end all federal safety nets for the truly needy.

    One fact that must give you pause is that the era of the greatest prosperity and freedom for the greatest number on earth coincides with the existence of the safety net. Not making an explicit ergo procter hoc (sp?) case, but just pointing out a fact that your side never seems to address.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    And it is pretty much irrefutable. If we could somehow get rid of all social welfare overnight, then the first old person or homeless who froze to death would be a giant cause celebre’ and would cause news and politicians to demagogue to an amazing degree, and before long you would have some real socialism crammed down your throat.

    So you see, a minimal safety net is needed as a socialism inoculation so that you don’t get the real thing.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • zroxx

    I dream of an America without socialist welfare programs where citizens keep much more of what they earn and in turn more directly support local charitable organizations that take care of the truly needy with both money and time. I’m such an extremist! [rolls eyes]

    One fact that must give you pause is that the era of the greatest prosperity and freedom for the greatest number on earth coincides with the existence of the safety net.

    Another Leftist talking point. And misdirection, since I’m not opposed to the existence of a “safety net”. I assert it can be provided better – quicker, at less cost, by persons who care more – when that task is left to citizens to perform rather than the centrally planned socialist welfare bureaucracy you seem to prefer.

  • zroxx

    .

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    The prevalence of false choices one of the things that is wrong with tests like this. Acat’s point about local/state/federal government is another significant problem.

    That said, I’m slightly to the left of Friedman on economics and (it looks like) a hair closer to the center on libertarianism/authoritarianism. No big surprise there.

    Now, back to work.

  • Doc Holliday

    I find the question to be fair. I read it as to whether globalization’s primary goal is to serve humanity or not. The key word is “primary”. But that is my reading, everyone has their opinion.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    obviously not familiar with my body of work and refuse to engage in a substantive discussion of reality rather than your dreams.

  • Scope

    that Reagan discussed in his statement on libertarinism.

    “there are libertarians who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy. I believe there are legitimate government functions. There is a legitimate need in an orderly society for some government to maintain freedom or we will have tyranny by individuals. The strongest man on the block will run the neighborhood. We have government to insure that we don?t each one of us have to carry a club to defend ourselves.”

    He wants to be the strongest man on the block controlling the neighborhood.

    Go back and look at his profile page and you will see that he titles most of his comments with well… and then proceeds to lecture everyone on the benefits of anarchy.

  • zroxx

    One fact that must give you pause is that the era of the greatest prosperity and freedom for the greatest number on earth coincides with the existence of the safety net.

    Indirectly attributing our prosperity and freedom to social welfare programs while claiming that we simply cannot live without them is a Leftist talking point if I’ve ever seen one.

    I think you’re an open minded and level headed guy so don’t take it personally. I haven’t accused you of being a Leftist and I note that you return the favor by not childishly accusing me of being an anarchist [rolls eyes] – I appreciate that. Based on our past engagements I know you can handle a vigorous debate like an adult. So I engage with you and don’t pull any punches because I feel strongly that this is a good working example of how subtle the creep of socialist thought is.

    Even though I’ve put myself on your side I cannot come up with any segment of the truly needy for whom private citizens and charitable organizations cannot replace – and do better than – centrally planned government programs. We clearly disagree and for my part I’ll let the conversation end here.

  • zroxx

    You’re welcome to advance an actual argument based on my prior statements on this site that demonstrate I support anarchy (I do not). Or you can continue to engage in silly churlishness.

    What I’ve asserted here is that we don’t need a socialist welfare system in the United States. You evidently think we do need a socialist welfare system. That’s fine! I disagree.

  • zroxx

    Basically, your position is we have to give liberals a little bit of socialism so they don’t ask for more. It’s not a bad point, at least better than claiming that private citizens and charities simply can’t do the job.

    The counter concern would be that once you give them an inch they’ll take a mile. Or as I noted above, once you agree that in principle socialist welfare programs are good and necessary then you’ve got to fight about how much is enough. And back to your point, since no system – governmental or private – will be perfect, we’re always going to be faced with someone using a failure to try and ratchet up the “how much”. All things being equal I’d rather choose the imperfect private solution over the imperfect government solution.

    I’d also rather see strong leadership that forcefully refutes the kind of demagoguery you cite. This is an issue we can win on but you have to actually fight it and put your case out there.

  • Doc Holliday

    some posit that the social safety net is to keep the rich safe from mobs with pitchforks. So they spend a little extra on insurance if you will.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    There is no modern industrial democracy that will move toward zero public social programs. Sorry, ain’t gonna happen. Might as well ask for elimination of income taxes and the standing army, you will get that a lot sooner.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • acat

    once the government runs out of money (no taxes) or the country is subdivided by foreign powers (no army) the social programs will pretty much end anyway.

    Just sayin’.

    Mew

  • Doc Holliday

    I am sure they would easily find the private donations to support the museum, right?

  • Doc Holliday

    you could have taken the test, and then went off on it. I guarantee that would have been more effective but my guess is you would land comfortably and then have to say it has some merit. No way you are going to step back now,I know you too well :)

  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    I like what you said “We will always have to be about the business of making clear what correct policies should be followed and upon what principles, if for no other reason than that potential voters are attaining the age of 18 every day.”

    Very sobering — and motivating!!

    Reminds me of what Reagan said about how we’re never more than one generation away from losing our freedom.

  • Doc Holliday

    you are still a pain in the ass, but a respected friend :)

  • Doc Holliday

    As I have said before, I think the test works because it is uncomfortable. As for the other quizz, I only scored something like 62. I think the more quality quizzes taken, the fruit if born.

    I have had so many test show me as an arch libertarian, but the PC test does not. That is why I like it, it puts me on the libertarian-rigth, but it really just adjust your score based on slight changes in philosophy. Other tests ask questions that are so stark, that a lib-con could answer only one way, those are the tests I find of less value.

  • Doc Holliday

    it is just a test, nothing more. garbage in, garbage out. I think the test is quite good. The political placements on the map are questionable, and just guesses by those Brits. They think most modern western politicians are on the authoritarian right.

    You know, Dennis Kucinich has some good points. He is honest and thinks he is doing right. Most politicians on the left are snakes.

    I don’t get how you can be mad at the test when we all took the same one. I am happy with my results, I think they are a fair representation of my views. Most here feel the same way. I mean, we could yell at the foot scale too.

    btw, who cares if you came out left of most people, is that the end of the world? There are other tests that I gurantee would call you are conservative, but most I have found are rubbish.

    this test idea was to compare the group, to give a little context to our arguments. It is not a test to see if you are a good Republican. I think many are taking this wrong. It is like they lost the desire to learn about themselves, and their desire to do something fun.

    anyone who finds a better test if free to post it. But I already know I am a raging libertarian on tests like “The Worlds Smallest Political Quiz”. what I like about this quiz is that it is more scientific. It does not lead you one way or the other.

  • Doc Holliday

    but the test was for fun and to generate debate. I didnt’ realize the test itself would be up for debate to this degree, and almost solely by those who claim to have not taken it or for some reason will not post their scores.

    I think the question about sex outside of marriage is pretty straightforward. You said you had a clear answer, but somehow that bothers you, either your answer or the question.

    I am not out of line at all. Other than a small handful of grouches, I think my diary was a success and people enjoyed the test. but since a small handful keep pushing the issue, the ones too good to take the test have actually told us more about themselves than anyone here who posted their score.

    I think RS needs to buy a few fainting couches. These questions seem almost offensive to some, well, welcome to the real world.

    I defy anyone to show where I actually criticized someone for their test score. And those that don’t get joking among friends need not apply.

    You are right I did get a great response and most have enjoyed the exercise and the thread. I can’t please everyone and I am not trying to do anything of the kind. The FAQ and other commentary was written long after this test was made.

    I don’t want to debate you about the test because you are unwilling to participate. I have tried to respond to most everyone who has taken the test, I respect that they took the time to try it.

    As I said, there are countless online tests and most are dreck. This one has gained respect because it is of some use. And as far as answering “don’t know” all the tme, your result will probably be “well we don’t know either”.

  • Raven

    I highly suspect that they were placed there by the personal opinions of the persons doing the placing rather than by the answers Of those persons to the questions, seeing where they fall.

    We should ignore that and look at where we all fall in relation to each other. And if we can get any of these persons to actually take the test, then we can see where they actually fall.

    In my observation of scores, most people fall where their diaries and comments put them.

    Though mbecker was somewhat surprising. I never figured him for such an authoritarian…

  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    Evidently, what I meant to be a light joking tone came across as angry! I didn’t mean it that way.

    You’re right–it is indeed interesting to compare and see the spectrum. I joked elsewhere on this thread that I must still have much of the Gandhian in me that I was 30 years ago. The more I think about it, the more that rings true. I probably am leftward of most folks here economically.

    As for the other measurement, the only thing I can think of that might have been responsible for putting me on the “libertarian” side of the scale was the question about marijuana. I’m pretty ambivalent about that one, and since the test didn’t offer a “neutral” answer, I ended up going with the “agree” on allowing private use.

  • Raven

    as a community on a social skills test.

  • Raven

    are part of the question…

  • Raven
  • Raven

    It’s hugely long…

  • CincoSolas_del_Bronx

    I’m not sure how much light can be shed by someone whose “unquantifiable transcendental aura” apparently puts him among those “too good to take the test” and thus out of the class of those with whom debate could proceed, but–since it’s apparent that a lot of respected people have spend time either taking the test or articulating their reasons for not doing so–a little analysis of the whole might be fitting.

    (And for starters, Doc, you are completely wrong that I was “unwilling to participate”–as my preceding note made clear, I have gone through the test multiple times, as well as put quite a bit of thought into whether and how our responses–including aversion–can be analysed to profit this bastion of conservative activism.)

    Assuming the integrity of the map for the sake of analysis, the US appears, as often stated here, a center-right country both fiscally and socially. Three clusters dominate the map: GOP candidates on the high end of both scales within the quadrant, Dem candidates on the low end–but still within the quadrant, and the RS community, which spans the range of both parties fiscally, and is markedly more libertarian than either.

    Two questions should jump off the page, if the plot has any validity at all. Shouldn’t RS reverse long-standing policy and admit that the GOP is in fact far more statist/authoritarian than the liberals WE love to hate, and given the proximity of so many to Dem ideals, shouldn’t our mantra be altered to “libertarian in the primary, Dem in the general”?

    Maybe the 3rd-party promoters and socon-shushers are onto something after all.

  • Doc Holliday

    I support marijuana decriminalization but I put “disagree” because I don’t support that for harder drugs. See, in comments and tests based only on words, interpretations can differ. It seems we have the same view on marijuana, but were forced to pick a side on an extreme question.