« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

MEMBER DIARY

An apology for a ill-conceived idea

By: Ender (Diary)  |  July 15th, 2009 at 09:22 AM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Two days ago I posted a A Modest Proposal for Social Change which was quite obviously not well thought out. I came up with the idea after talking to a liberal co-worker of mine. We were discussing the reasons for the drop of crime in New York City and he suggested (after reading Freakanomics) that legalizing abortion had a lot to do with it, of course in addition to increasing the police force and changing their tactics.

I did not buy that legalization of abortion had that much of an effect at all, but it brought to mind the point that millions of babies were never born, and what would be a more ideal, non-controversial, and positive way of achieving similar results (of not having poor babies suffering being raised in far from ideal households) without taking those lives.

Unfortunately the easiest way to achieve it is through government intervention and as a conservative I should’ve thought better than proposing such a intrusive, though voluntary, government incentive program that deals with quite sensitive and important reproductive issues. To give any government any control in such an area would be a serious mistake, no matter the initial benevolent intentions. It is a slippery slope and it pretty much amounts to ends justify the means, and the means could be fairly atrocious.

Lots of good civil arguments were made and I agreed with a decent amount of them, though of course being defensive, which prompted some less than sensible exchanges.

I apologize for bringing it up the idea, which while not “liberal/progressive” in nature, with the goal of saving money and reducing suffering, is still a big government utilitatarian program that is ultimately antithetical to my own conservative libertarian ideology.

Tags: , ,
Get Alerts

COMMENTS

POSTING RULES  |  LOGIN TO COMMENT  |  REGISTER TODAY
  • janis

    Here’s a thought– since your concern was for the children that you assumed shouldn’t have been born in the first place, it would be interesting to see a diary from you listing all the ways in which the all-knowing government has managed to come up with programs that have seriously damaged the family unit. Starting with welfare…….

  • penguin2

    Only the ditch belonged to the other side. Yes, you engendered quite a lively discussion, but it did allow for many good conservative points to be made. Now when you are talking to your liberal friends, you have some good points you can make.

    Thanks for posting the mea culpa.

  • Ender

    And you are right about the wonders of our government and its past history :) I’ll think about that diary.

  • Ender

    and their love for our government and its “solutions” must’ve rubbed off on me in a not quite so positive way :) I did talk to my liberal friend this morning, made some of the points that were made, and he actually agreed with the whole premise of not entrusting this kind of power to our government.

  • Aaron Gardner

    But one discussion with you liberal friend and all of the sudden you understand.

    Next time just avoid the hassle and don’t crib ideas from your liberal friends.

  • Ender

    was after I agreed with the many criticisms, and I used those criticisms to point things out to him, which is what you would’ve gotten from what I said if you read it a bit more carefully.

  • Aaron Gardner

    Either way follow the advice in the last sentence of my post…it will save you a lot of trouble.

  • Ender

    still a bit sore from the yesterday’s harsh encounters with you. No offense.

  • mailloux

    not to mention, brave and humble too. It’s a great sign of your dignity.

    My one caution is to encourage you to re-examine what I suspect are some utilitarian leanings (philosophically speaking). Your sentence stating, “not having poor babies suffering being raised in far from ideal households,” is, in my opinion, derivative of a utilitarian mindset.

    In my own travels, I’ve witnessed many lives that the liberal establishment considers unworthy of life. For example, when I was an undergraduate, I worked for a group home for the severely developmentally disabled (autistic, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc). The abortion mindset makes a utilitarian case that these kinds of folks would have been better off had they never been born. The argument often revolves around saving the individual and their family from future suffering.

    Suffering, however, is a state of all humanity. To some degree or another we all do. But, joy is also a common state of humanity and so is triumph in the face of suffering. The mentally retarded clients I helped were no different. In their lives, I witnessed moments of triumph, moments of bliss, and moments of agony. In the end, though, they all seemed engaged in life in one way or another. And, most convincingly, their moments of joy profoundly impacted me. A smile from and a connection to a severely autistic child is, in my opinion, a nearly supernatural experience of great beauty.

    I guess all I’m trying to say is to be careful with anything that seems to employ utilitarian thinking. Often, in an ill conceived attempt to reduce suffering, it ends up throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    Best regards to you Ender, and I look forward to reading more of your thoughts in future diaries.

    Take Care, mailloux

  • Aaron Gardner

    Especially when it comes to ideas that lead to tyranny. I understand that it wasn’t your intent to support tyranny but you were, and still are in some ways*, riding a fine line. I whole heartedly agree with Mailloux below.

    Once you stop seeing the inherent value in all human life and start playing cost-benefit games you are on the path to tyranny. The reason why is that, as I have said before, not everyone is as benevolent as you.

    *

    I did not buy that legalization of abortion had that much of an effect at all, but it brought to mind the point that millions of babies were never born, and what would be a more ideal, non-controversial, and positive way of achieving similar results (of not having poor babies suffering being raised in far from ideal households) without taking those lives.

    With this paragraph you are making a judgement on the value of someone else’s life. Take for example a baby in tribal Africa, although none of us would want to live that life that does not give us the right to assume that they would rather not live. Once you start making those judgments you are following the path of Wilson, Sanger, Hitler, Stalin and Mao, regardless of where on that path you are, you are still there. I suggest you walk, no run in the other direction until you are fully off that path.

    Hope that wasn’t too harsh.

  • Ender

    It is easy to assume that there much suffering for those born into abnormal and even abusive lives without seeing the other side to those lives. I’ve often encountered utilitarian thinking crop up in various issues, especially the overpopulation bogeyman of the Left, and argued against it. So it’s a bit disheartening to so easily fall into the trap myself.

    Anyways, I appreciate the kind words and the advice. See you around.

  • Ender

    I explained my original reasoning, which I do now understand to be flawed.

    I don’t automatically hold all life to be sacred in the sense that I view some people losing their right to life through their actions – murderers on death row for example. Does that go against “seeing the inherent value in all human life”?

  • Ender
  • Swamp_Yankee

    Ender,

    You fought a good fight. You seem reasoned, original, thoughtful and humble. The conservative moevment can always use more people with mental dexterity.

  • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

    that are conditioned into us. Over many years, we’ve been conditioned to look to someone or a body of someones outside ourselves to tell us what is right and wrong. Over time, that dependency can become automatic in our thinking and what we do.

    Long standing habits are really tough to break.

    Glad you posted again, Ender.

  • Ender

    I’ve been away from the movement for quite some time. Perhaps it’s time to get more active, especially our side being down the way we are.

  • Vaughn Harold

    The social garbage in this country begs one to consider using the force/budget of government to fix problems, we the people must see the error of our ways, turn back to our constitution, and stay away from this evil which has now allowed our government to lord over us.

  • mom2oneson

    And what suffering is in some eyes is not always suffering. I am not talking about real abuse and trauma but look at how many are misguided on what children need. Schools teach students that families are basically bad and blow out of proportion nomal family dynamics while never ever mentioning the things families give. It really gives young adults a negative view of family life. A baby needs it’s mother, some diapers and some clothes but many think that baby would be suffering if not in a nice apt or nice house. Baby is happy when snuggled up to it’s mama and close by her. A young child close by his mother is happy too. They need basic material things and their parents to grow. It’s like the left totally ignores how God made humans to grow. Real trauma and abuse of course should be worked to stop but I don’t trust the left’s view of what is suffering because it’s so based on what consumer good they have and they ignore the other things that families give.

  • pilgrim

    somebody is coming from. I notice in Enders profile that he was born and raised in Russia from 1976-1989. This is the heart of the former Soviet Union, and gives perhaps a clue for why Ender is an atheist. I have read and recommended many of Ender’s previous diaries that dealt with the importance of a strong military that needs to be strongly supported by the nation. This was the first diary I ever read by Ender that dealt with a social issue.

    I apologize to Ender for the personal attacks calling him out as a moby or a troll. I disagreed with Enders social proposal, and with the arguments that he used to support the proposal, but he does come from a different place than the rest of us. Arguing with him on the subject without attacking him personally is the best for both us and him.

  • Aaron Gardner

    The difference is that murderers are charged, found guilty in a court of law and sentenced accordingly. In your plan their would be no due process, just a preemptive judgement on the potential value of any specific life. That is not justice, that is abuse of power.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    baptized!

    smile

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • mailloux

    I haven’t made a habit of reading profiles, but it’s a habit I plan on developing.

    Take Care, mailloux

  • Ender

    my upbringing has certainly affected my religious views. Raised as an atheist (as were we all), I’ve deviated from that view here in US, but eventually came back to it.

  • $peciallist

    was one of your Best…LOL

  • Ender

    I like being a heathen. :)

  • Ender

    Your response almost reads as if I was advocating abortion as policy. While it is true that sterilization will preclude many people from being born, it does not take any actual lives.

  • TNJim

    Your apology is well written and accepted. You get what I tried to point out to you about government involvement in anything that is better addressed with morality, personal responsibility, and family values. Government always tries to bite off more than it can chew, grab more than what is on its plate.

    I agree with Evan above, that sometimes we are led to a place where God can show us ourselves in a mirror causing us to take a good look at our past. Thus is revealed truth and He is there to help us see our way back to it. He is always there to help us along the way.

    Take care, and now I look forward to reading more from you because I think you’ll think it through a little more carefully now.

  • penguin2

    It is really about meeting the psychological needs of a child vs. a materialistic view. It is about the human condition and relationships, not about “stuff.” They’ve done studies about children raised in materially ‘rich’ homes and have found the children were not as well off emotionally or as strong in self-esteem, if they had not received adequate affection and attention. Items which cannot be bought or artificially produced.

  • mailloux

    I couldn’t agree more. It’s not things or activities that children crave. It’s just being there with their parents (and preferably, the plural, both mother and father; although, I fully realize that’s not always possible . . . love is certainly not any lesser in a single parent home. My heart goes out to single parents struggling to raise their child/children). Time spent with parents, even just watching them cook or clean, is time well spent. There need not be a hundred different activities from piano lessons to baseball to ballet. There need not be materials galore, from Wii systems to IPODS to fancy cellular phones. There need only be the family.

    Thank You!
    mailloux

  • Aaron Gardner

    read what I wrote in the context of the conversation, which is this:

    not having poor babies suffering being raised in far from ideal households

  • http://www.evanweeks.com EvanWeeks

    Incidentally, I’m currently rereading the series by Orson Scott Card whose protagonist shares your name.

    I believe that, like the character whose name you bear online, you will eventually come to a place where your lack of faith (or willful rejection thereof, more likely) will hold a mirror to your life and reveal the truth, and you will be forever changed by it. No one honestly interested in truth can possibly avoid God for long. Until then, keep asking the hard questions and don’t settle for something that just sounds right. Investigate and make your own decisions. God will provide the illumination in His time.

  • penguin2

    people to do His work. “God will provide the illumination in His time” jumped out at me. Participating here on RS can and I believe does enable knowledge and spiritual growth. Including, being touched by God, for “all of those who enter here.”

    Feel free to fix my thought, I think you’ll get what I’m am trying to say.

  • Ender

    That series is amazing :)

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Ender

    is that the idea of government “fixing” deep societal problems was always something I argued against. Somehow I fell into the trap of good intentions with easy solutions that are quite insidious.

  • Ender
  • janis

    here is not just an exercise in political thinking, although it often starts out that way. I’ve learned history, both world and American, more military matters and thinking, all kinds of strategery, and I’ve learned the most valuable thing of all–that we are truly one. What affects you will touch me as well. And knowing that makes me a lot more dedicated to doing what is right for this country. If we all do so, then we cannot fail to succeed. It may not be success in the way we have been used to thinking of it, but it will be success nevertheless.

    The other thing I have learned here is a profound respect for Moe Lane. God knows we have tried his patience and forbearance more times than I can count. The fact that he’s not paid to do this makes it all the more worthy of respect. (So, Moe, if I get really obnoxious at some point, does this buy me a get out of jail free card? :-) )

  • TNJim

    I have nothing in mine at all! But I am feeling more comfortable here now after reading some good discussions with many of you and being involved in some of those myself. It has helped me get to know some of you, at least as well as you can know someone as we hide behind the mask of the interwebs. Hopefully you’ve gained some insight into me as well, at least by now I hope you all have decided I’m no troll!

    I’ll be adding some stuff to my profile before long but don’t expect much. My life hasn’t been all that exciting! :)

  • http://andrightlyso.com/ civil_truth

    To give any government any control in such an area would be a serious mistake, no matter the initial benevolent intentions. It is a slippery slope and it pretty much amounts to ends justify the means, and the means could be fairly atrocious…
    is still a big government utilitarian program that is ultimately antithetical to my own conservative libertarian ideology.

    You’ve clearly heard the points that my fellow-RedStaters and I were advancing. I don’t have too much else to add to what my fellow RedStaters have written above, except again to urge you to beware of utilitarian or “ends-justify-the-means” arguments – which as they have noted was still slipping through the side door in other portions of this diary.

    A little leaven leavens the whole loaf.

  • TNJim

    I also give a big hat tip to Neil Stevens as well. His tech expertise keeps this site chugging along pretty flawlessly. He also doesn’t get paid and so I too have the utmost respect for him. His patience has also been tried, but even if he wasn’t also a moderator the tech savvy he has, as Moe pointed out, is a big reason the site comes up whenever we enter www.redstate.com into our web browser, not to mention improvements in site functionality over time.

  • penguin2

    what many of us may think, but not ever express. It is important to let people know how much we do appreciate them. At least one positive thing I can think of that came out of the election, is perhaps the recognition amongst ourselves and others who are dear to us that they are a lot more important and cannot be taken for granted. Just as we are learning how dear our country and freedoms are.

    Janis, Moe’s own wonderful, quirky sense of humor and style, must keep him from going over the edge, when trying to maintain order!

  • http://hillbillypolitics.com Steph C

    That’s why we rely on each other to pull us back out of our individual traps, :-)

    “Good intentions” makes everything sound like great ideas, under the guise of caring, but all of those ideas never really take into account human nature and the dynamics of that nature. Sooner or later, somebody in a position of power believes he or she can make people better on a grand scale and all the flaws will be swept away. The problems come in immediately with the fact that one person’s idea of perfection is ever exactly the same as another person’s idea of perfection.

    Man, even one wielding great power, is flawed. The only person who can make one better is the one person, looking inside his own heart and determining to do and be better.

  • mailloux

    but I figure people have gotten to know me a little better through my diaries. However, I think I’ll soon take a little time to beef up my profile.

    And you a troll?! It never once crossed my mind. I’ve always appreciated your comments and thoughts and hope you stick with the RedState community. We, IMHO, are the better for having you here and participating.

    Take Care, mailloux

  • janis

    for leaving him out. Given the way the website has worked so well for so long now, it’s easy to forget the bad old days when our efforts were so often met with the dreaded “500 error”. At times I think many of us despaired of ever getting it back together. But thanks to Neil, here we all are and able to reach out and touch…….

    Thank you, Neil. Just so you know that your efforts are very much appreciated every single time I come here and it works. (Please see the remark above to Moe about my get out of jail free card. :-) )

  • TNJim

    I had purposely waited til after the spate of troll/moby activity began to die down after the election and inauguration. Even so, it was longer than 24 hours before I could post my first comment, more like 48. I didn’t mind, Heck if I was a moderator during that time I probably would have wanted to place a moratorium on new accounts for some time. Michelle Malkin still has one on her site, or did last I looked. So I’m sure there were some who looked suspiciously at me when I first came aboard, maybe some who still do.

    It’s fine, though. On the interwebs you can never be too careful. Thank you for your kind words, mailloux. I hope to be around RS for a long time.

  • TNJim
  • penguin2

    Just that my tech skills are new enough I’ve often thought the problem was on my end! LOL. Tremendous tech improvement on RS since I started reading last summer. Thanks to all of you, for bunches of good deeds. And we know you do this without pay, out of love and concern for the goals of conservatives and needs of our country.

  • TNJim

    The comunity grows because of people like them. Then we get people like Ender and equitare who I believe will further enrich the cmmunity, even if an opposing viewpoint is addressed. I believe the exchange we had with Ender over the last couple of days shows what can happen when a discussion is held responsibly and respectfully.

    Even if you, Ender, hadn’t posted this diary today I think you showed some hints in your later comments yesterday that you were beginning to see your original idea was flawed, from a conservative point of view. Getting people to at least think about the conservative viewpoint, if not embrace it, is what the site is about. As you noticed, we are more than willing to help those who have unwittingly strayed a little, or a lot, back onto the path.

  • Ender

    I have forgotten what it’s like to discuss things civilly and respectfully. The people here are far different from the obnoxious and moral-less lefties, and though we might disagree on some things, it is nice to be back and have so many values in common with the community. I’ve forgotten what that was like as well.

  • Aaron Gardner

    heh…I am obnoxious, but I am not moral-less or a lefty, so I guess I still qualify as being far different. ;^)

  • Ender

    Now I am rearing to get back into fighting the Left :)

  • Ender

    I can be fairly obnoxious myself… But not that often. :)

  • TNJim

    You just tend to use the cattle prod AND the barking, snapping border collie to move the stray back into the herd when the lasso would work just fine.

    Of course, sometimes the cattle prod is needed :)

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    smile

  • Aaron Gardner
  • Aaron Gardner
  • leftylurker

    I really did think you were just playing with us at first.

    Not to threadjack, but I think this is a really good time to discuss my plans to have a tracking device installed in the head of everyone who voted Republican in one of the last four elections…

    =)

  • http://andrightlyso.com/ civil_truth

    That’s a real step-up from the opinions of an awful lot of your fellow denizens. :)

    So if we have heads, then we might have brains; and if we have brains, we might have thoughts; and if we have thoughts, then maybe those should be engaged with rather than simply dismissed or outlawed as racists, etc.

    Hey if your radical idea takes root, we might even have some debate in the country rather than simply being shouted down or expelled from the public arena.

    Which I suppose is why you come to RS, for honest discussion rather than cacophany.

    Anyway, if you haven’t figure this out already, I enjoy your participation here at RedState and your reasoned commentary.

  • leftylurker

    I actually agree with a lot of the things that are said here. I come here to learn, and to maybe throw out an idea or two that people might like.

    There is so much to be learned from the best of rightwards and leftwards thought. If only I was WAY smarter than I am.

    Thank you for the kind words, civil, they are mutual.

  • leftylurker

    duh… =)

  • mom2oneson

    .

  • Rod_Patrick

    It’s COURAGE.

    It shows that somehow, we, conservatives, still value the old-fashioned values of integrity, intellectual honesty, as well as moral freedom to seek truth and better ideas.

    Good for you, ender.

    Somehow, it’s a new beginning for your stronger conviction that “big government will never be a solution … it is and will always be a problem.”