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RS

EDITOR OF REDSTATE

A few points

  1. The media today is trumpeting the fact that today the Dow Jones Industrial Average dropped by more points than on any other day in history. This caught my attention not because of the number, but because usually the media also gives us the percentage drop. Today they did not — caught up instead in the number. Peter Robinson notes the drop was only 7% in value as opposed to the 22% drop in 1987.

  2. I’m a bit gobsmacked that conservative pundits who supported the bailout are attacking members of Congress for listening to their constituents. Amazing how representative democracy worked well today and that’s not good enough for some people. Truth be told, the public could very well be wrong, but members of Congress, like on the immigration bill, listened and voted accordingly.

  3. Does it really hurt Republicans that the media is blaming the GOP for killing something the public did not want anyway?

  4. Those of us who opposed the bill may actually have shot ourselves in the foot. Now Nancy and the Dems could very well pass a bill far to the left of the compromised Paulson plan by rallying some of those Democrats to the plan who refused to vote for today’s plan. The President, naturally, will sign it.

  5. Not that we need reminding the media is out to get conservatives, but it is amazing they are so willing to blame the GOP for this when all the evidence shows Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats could have passed the plan if they wanted. And how is it that the 60+ 133 Republicans who voted no are unpatriotic, but the 95 Democrats who voted against it are not? Or maybe everyone just realizes the 95 Democrats hate America.

  6. I updated 5. I had the number of Republicans wrong. I was looking at the “for” as opposed to the “noes” as the Congress spells the negative vote.

  7. Notice the legislation was not entitled the “Wall Street Bailout Act of 2008.” instead, the legislation was titled, ” A Bill To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide earnings assistance and tax relief to members of the uniformed services, volunteer firefighters, and Peace Corps volunteers, and for other purposes.” That’s spin for you.

COMMENTS

  • Wubbies_World

    … I do seriously believe that this will hurt the Democrats more than Republicans, especially in the wake of the 2004 hearing video on Fannie and Freddie corruption. If the Republicans in the House are smart, they can use this to “Nationalize” the election like Newt did in 2004 and hammer the Democrats.

    At this time, yes we will encounter some tough economic times, but now that I have seen how little the market dropped, it is not going to be as bad as we have been told it will be. However, tonight overseas and in the morning we will be able to tell a whole lot better.

    I do believe the Democrat dirty hands in this will be front and center going into this election. I think this may work out better than expected for Republicans.

    I still have no regrets in opposing this.

  • aardpig

    Erick, why is it 60+ Republicans who voted no, versus 95 Democrats who voted against it? What’s the narrative behind representing the 133 Republican noes as ’60+’? (Aside: I’m a Brit, although living in the USA; so there may be something about House procedure that I’m not getting here).

  • Pastor_Dan
    1. I believe Katie Couric’s staff (handlers?) posted a graphic including the fact that the 9-17-2001 drop was 7.1%, but she didn’t read that point out loud.

    2. We always say that we want leaders who are principled — until those principles differ from our own, of course.

    3. Very good question. Depends on how badly they can twist it between now and 11/4.

    4. San Fran Gran Nan doesn’t have the nerve nor skill to get it done, unless it happens in a lame duck session. W would sign it, though.

    5. Spread the word: Barney Frank & Chris Dodd’s chickens have come home to roost!

  • pwest

    your lips to God’s ears; are you sure you’re not smoking or drinking something!

  • SteveLA
    1. President Bush is now well and truly a Lame Duck. There will be no new legislative initiatives put forth by the President, and even if there were they would be DOA. Even when the President throws in with Nasty Nancy and Donks, he can’t get Republican House members to vote with him. It’s now a case of George W(ho)?

    2. The ball is now in Johnny Mac’s court. Do something constructive or not do, McCain has found this steaming pile of excrement, jumped in it, rolled in it and now has the stench of this crisis all over him. At this point where the excrement came from is not important, well Donks are trying to make that important but that’s another rant, what is important is how McCain will or will not lead his party in both the House and the Senate to offer up a true conservative alternative to plans already badly crafted and badly pushed by the President and his team.

  • Wubbies_World

    No smoking or drinking going on here. I have no regrets. I am good with this.

  • The_Rebel

    n/t

  • gamecock

    now sign up for one more liberal. No, the GOP has the leverage now.

    The stock market was tanking (down 300), early on, when it looked like the bill was going to pass easily.

    I wrote a blog here this am saying that while I did not support the bill, that we should not vilify repubs that supported it and that we should laud them improving the bill so much.

  • The_Rebel

    that as Speaker of the House, Pelosi had multiple means of getting the 12 votes she needed to turn the vote around. She was more interested in trashing the Republicans in her speech than in securing the necessary votes. Maybe Newt could give her lessons on how to be an effective “Speaker”.

  • kudzu630

    As I watched the bailout vote come over CSPAN I couldn’t help but notice the writing on the wall behind the Speaker’s seat…

    IN GOD WE TRUST

    Maybe we should give it a little more than just lip service. I agree, representative democracy won today as it did on immigration and other bills in our history. I find it odd that we fought a revolution (or war for those that can take it) over finances and yet our principles of limited government are now laughed at.

    I just have a fear in my hear that things are going to bad, governance wise, before they get better. How much longer will we have to continue to hound our legislators to prevent socialism or other grasps at our liberties? I can stand judicious use of intelligence capabilities being used on Americans but can we seriously keep fighting back the tide of “progressive” movements that endanger Western culture… which is rooted in free-market capitalism?

  • The_Rebel

    but many of those Dems who voted no have gone on record as saying they want some of those goodies that were cut out of the bill. I heard Rep. Linda Sanchez of CA state on CNBC earlier tonight that she voted no because there was no provision for judges to adjust mortgage payments for those in foreclosure or bankrupcy. Those are mostly people who shouldn’t have had mortgages in the first place.

    Look for this to find its way back into the bill, along with the Acorn funding.

    And the MSM will look the other way, and the public will be fooled again.

  • Erick

    I’ve corrected. thanks.

  • itrytobenice

    This is what happens when the approval ratings of our legislature is in single digits.

    You guys have all seen soldiers say something like, “I’d follow him to hell with a bucket of water,” when referring to their leaders. That’s because they trust him to be wise, his charge to be necessary, and him to be as protective of his men as possible.

    On the other hand, we have a Congress who is well known to be dishonest failures. They have their own best interests at heart, and to he!! with the country.

    Then an emergency occurs, and they need to convince Americans that an unpleasant task is necessary, and Americans say, “Yeah, right. You’re a lying turd. You’ve been a lying turd for so long, I wouldn’t believe you if you said the sky was blue. STFU, or we’ll toss you out on your ear.”

    And to American congresscritters: Welcome to life as an untrustworthy liar whose been found out. Wouldn’t it be nice now to have earned a little respect?

  • markreiboldt
    1. If you look at the market response to the failed bailout action in terms of basis points, you will see the drop was significantly higher than that of 1987 and any other recessionary market collapse seen, with the one exception of 1929.

    2. Rescuing the financial markets is not up to constituents, which is why we have monetary policymakers mandated to manage our economy and thus stabilize our economy. It should never have come down to elected officials driven by politics. Constituents, from an aggregate viewpoint, don’t have the best solution as to how we must act to rescue the markets. That’s why we don’t elect the Fed Chairman and other monetary policymakers. Even Newt agreed that although the package on the table was not politically optimal for everyone involved, the markets needed Congress to step up and do its job of govern, not pander to politics. After all, their job is to govern, not just listen to constituents. Sure, the voters put them there and they represent constituents, but their job is to make the tough decisions that are best for the country, especially when information assymetries exist, not allowing all constituents to be fully informed about the full details. I know this sounds harsh, but monetary policy is not subject to a vote … we elect the people that appoint/confirm monetary policymakers and that is where the democratic process stops, because quite frankly, the economy is not something we can directly leave up to every Joe and Jane Voter throughout the country

    3. If it were as simple as the media portraying it the way you describe, then this would be correct, but unfortunately, the GOP will come out as costing everyone. Dems will milk every ounce of political capital out of this situation as they can and then will sweep in as the rescuers. The reason the public “didn’t support” the plan was because of the price tag and there is a false perception that this was socializing the markets (which it isn’t). If you look at the price data, after today’s failed vote and subsequent plunge, we paid in the capital markets more than what the original bailout would have costed … and that was a direct hit to the country’s bottom line, which the bailout would not have been. So, businesses will fail, retirements will be depleted, and negative macroeconomic effects will accelerate all because politics took over the wheel. In the end, we will likely pay at least twice that which was originally expected, with over $500b lost just this afternoon.

    4. By letting political pride drive the process rather than cool heads, the GOP handed all of the strong cards over to the Democrats in this situation. Not only did they come out looking like innocents today, but as I previously said, they will emerge as the rescuers when a package actually does pass. And, whatever plan comes down the pipe will inevitably be tilted towards a Dem agenda, because now we have realized just how critical a bailout is. No one will stand by again for another afternoon in the markets like today, not even the most ignorant bullheaded of the bunch.

    5. You’re right … they are all to blame. Dems and the GOP on this one. They all played politics. But, when it comes to people losing money, they don’t care about the vote splits. Voters are not taking the Sept 29 roll call votes to the polls with them. Their image of politicians will already be crafted by the media and how they associate the fallout in their markets related to how it affects their pocketbook, and then drive their support in that direction. If I am a small business owner, and I need economic stabilization and strengthened credit markets to that I can meet payroll next month (and the next 12 months), then that’s the telescope through which I am seeing things right now … not how the caucus numbers and vote spreads stacked up. Once voters/constituents/citizens are affected this way, all that restoration of fiscal conservatism ideology malarkey will be forgotten. Now, those who voted asgainst restoring stability into the financial markets will be looked at as ignorant, stubborn know-nothings, which most voters already look at them as. This just confirmed it for many.

  • bk

    They want it to include ACORN, credit card bailout, car loan bailout, you name it.

  • Doc_Holliday

    If anything, the House Conservatives are set up to be heroes. They can get a more conservative-free market bill, and then when the market rises, they will look like the saviors. Of course Pelosi will do everything to stop this, but I still think we have the upper hand.

    Also I totally disagree that now Pelosi can get some ultra left wing bill through. If she tries it, she will lose Blue Dogs, all the Republicans, and will have huge trouble reconciling with the Senate. Also, I do not believe Bush would sign some left wing laden, socialist bill.

  • speciallist

    n/p

  • Pentagon16

    Uh, some of us were saying THIS THREE DAYS AGO!! Thanks for realizing this rather salient point NOW after the vote already happened.

    “Those of us who opposed the bill may actually have shot ourselves in the foot. Now Nancy and the Dems could very well pass a bill far to the left”…

  • bs

    1) Not surprised, although anyone with an ounce of brains and/or memory knew that already.
    2) One of the reasons that the USA is a republic and not a democracy is because the elected officials are expected to use their judgment in cases where the masses are wrong. Is this one of those cases? I suppose history will sort that out. But I don’t think that Congress is 100% obligated to canvass their constituents for how they should vote. They should listen and then balance what they hear with what they (the Congresspeople) believe is right.
    3) Yes, it hurts Republicans. Every one of these kind of things is another chink in the numbers. But what are you going to do?
    4) I just heard a conservative radio host talking about just that – now the Pelosi Dems have basically free reign to push through whatever travesty of a bill that they want. And we’re basically powerless, at least until it hits the Senate.
    5) As I posted in an earlier thread, NO ONE should be surprised by the media response. There’s precious little chance that the masses will hear the GOP side of the story. See 1) and 3).
    6) & 7) nothing to add

  • bk
    1. Does it really hurt Republicans that the media is blaming the GOP for killing something the public did not want anyway?

    Considering the overwhelming public outcry against it, aren’t the GOP the heroes? (I should say the RSC.) I wonder if the media spin will backfire on the Dems.

    I hope Palin is ready to hit from several angles tomorrow.

  • aardpig

    If so, what can one make of a group of representatives who are willing to reverse their decision just because Pelosi was rude to them?

    I’d rather not think that was the case. I’d like to hope that the 133 nos (or the fraction thereof that turned the vote) had a better reason to reject the bill than Pelosi’s intemperance. I’d like to think that at least some of the Dems who voted no had similar good reasons.

  • gamecock

    and even speciallist agree, we are right.

  • rbdwiggins
  • mbecker908

    The entire Black Caucus and the Sanchez Sisters voted against this bill. Throw in the goodies and they’ll vote to a man in favor of it.

    I don’t have the actual headcount of which D’s voted against the bill, but I’m guessing that the more liberal of their caucus did. They will jump on board in a heartbeat if ACORN, etal get funded.

    And just how many of the 60 or so Rs who voted for it will be persuaded to vote NO to offset the above? Not enough.

    Will it be modified in the Senate? Probably, but the Senate version will likely be more liberal.

  • mcg

    is procedural. In order to bypass a lot of the procedures that would delay bringing up the bill for a vote, it was presented as a substitute amendment for an older tax bill.

    See here.

  • markreiboldt

    2) One of the reasons that the USA is a republic and not a democracy is because the elected officials are expected to use their judgment in cases where the masses are wrong. Is this one of those cases? I suppose history will sort that out. But I don’t think that Congress is 100% obligated to canvass their constituents for how they should vote. They should listen and then balance what they hear with what they (the Congresspeople) believe is right.

    This is exactly the point I make above. Sometimes, elected officials have to stand up for what’s best for the country, even when voters don’t agree with it, especially when their disagreement involves many information assymetries. Just because someone says they’ll vote/not vote for you if you do/don’t do something, doesn’t mean that should drive your actions, especially when the risks/costs are what they are today. If McCain pandered to all of the voters on the war, then there’s no way he’d be where he is today. Congress had the Chairman of the Federal reserve, who is one of the most gifted economists in the worlds with unlimited access to information advising them on what would happen if a bailout didn’t happen and why it was so important, but instead, many Congressmen chose to listen to voters (who not only don’t understand the true situation, but also don’t have all of the information), because they want to get re-elected. Remember, their job is to lead, not pander to voters.

  • mcg

    In order to bypass a lot of the procedures that would delay bringing up the bill for a vote, it was presented as a substitute amendment for an older tax bill.

    See here.

  • aardpig

    If the MSM spins the bill as ‘the only thing that would save the US’, then it’s no great leap for them to portray Mike Pence et al as having thrown the country to the dogs — just because they wanted to stand on principle. This could get ugly.

  • Doc_Holliday

    you have to be kidding me! The only relevant measure is the percentage loss. What if one day the Dow is 36,000 and has an 800 point drop, will that one be worse than this one?

    Also, this legislation was Rushed by the president, the treasury sec, and the Dem Congress. They wanted to slip this buy us and scare us to death. And Pelosi trashed Republicans right before the vote

    But I also want to talk about something else here, it is about individual responsibility. Even most conservatives are looking to the government to save them here. Why is this? Is this what we have become? You know, there are people that made money today and many many more that lost much less than the averages. In fact I am one of those people, if I had to put it into a relevent number, I had more of a Dow down 200 day.

    The point I am trying to make is that we are the party of individual freedom and free market capitalism. No one from either party has explained why we MUST hand over so much of our money and freedom to the Feds. Instead, they tell us it is above our heads and we should just trust them. No, we should all take individual responsibility to educate ourselves and act in our best interests.

    Of course not everyone is a stock trader, and no one can be right all of the time or even most of the time. But what we CAN do is take responsibility for our financial futures and stop following the herd mentality.

    I am sure changes need to be made in financial clarity, public companies should not be able to hide losses from the public. But I do know every other time, with Sarbanes-Oxley being the latest, the government stepped in to manage the markets, it has hurt us in the long run.

    While others see the end of the world, I see the possible beggining of a new party, one that allows bad companies to fail and allows good ones to flourish. This also applies to people.

  • Whitfox

    Regarding your number 2, under the American system, experts have to convince a body of laymen. That’s why we don’t convict people on the testimony of expert witnesses alone.

    In this case, the people supporting this plan refused to sufficiently justify it. Really, I’ve yet to hear one solid reason that the Paulson plan had to pass this week. Maybe Wall Street experts were being discreet. But if they value discretion over results, how can they complain now?

    One valid argument you might have against Congress, is if they were truly convinced of the need, but they let the American public scare them into submission. Yet again, some actual evidence might be nice.

    And as to 5, Republicans stood as the party of justice and small government. Barring an immediate financial disaster, those are advantages.

  • Strelnikov

    They can vote NO to anything trying to socialize markets and force class-warfare Leninism on us.

    If it passes, then we know which way the bullets will be flying, if the rumors that Americans are calling their representatives at the rate of 9-1 against!

    Be prepared for a reaction against incumbents, especially ideologue Dems, in November.

    Republicans can stop using the word bail-out and use “stabilization” and they can start demanding a cap of 250 billion on loans, not hand-outs, to decent Wall Street firms, and a matching 250 billion in spending cuts, a pittance out of a nearly 3 trillion dollar budget, i.e. 3 thousand billion! Less than 1 per cent in cuts could send a positive psychological signal: but you know the Dems will scream. And so: “Democrats will not even agree to less than 1% in cuts to help our economy!”

    Americans need to be taught some basic math about percentages and some basic economics: economics is psychology, and nothing is free. The McCain campaign has a chance to teach this at the Dems expense.

  • bs
  • Whitfox

    Regarding your number 2, under the American system, experts have to convince a body of laymen. That’s why we don’t convict people on the testimony of expert witnesses alone.

    In this case, the people supporting this plan refused to sufficiently justify it. Really, I’ve yet to hear one solid reason that the Paulson plan had to pass this week. Maybe Wall Street experts were being discreet. But if they value discretion over results, how can they complain now?

    One valid argument you might have against Congress, is if they were truly convinced of the need, but they let the American public scare them into submission. Yet again, some actual evidence might be nice.

    And as to 5, Republicans stood as the party of justice and small government. Barring an immediate financial disaster, those are advantages.

  • streetwise

    I hope it gets ZERO GOP votes. Run against the lefty pork barrel Congress and let the Blue Dogs meet their fate.

  • KyleH

    Thanks for the comments, Mark. This deserves to be a stand alone diary.

    One thing further on the market loss. It is not just today’s loss. The market is down about 25% from one year ago.

  • markreiboldt

    Here’s your justification : 770 points or roughly 7%. That’s 7% in the RED.

  • markreiboldt

    basis points do matter. The drop today was in the 140′s. The drop in ’87 was somewhere in the 120-130′s range. Since the crisis relates to the credit markets, then basis points are the key driving component of volatility, because things like LIBOR will ultimately show true stabilization/destabilization in this market. The Dow is just the tip of the longterm iceberg.

    I agree with you about the personal accountability. It is up to people to educate themselves as to what all of this means. So many people were against the bailout b/c they thought it was just going to make rich Wall St fat cats richer. What they failed to understand is that the fallout from not having a bailout will hit home on Main St, causes businesses large and small to suffer, etc, etc, etc. It’s not just about bailing out the goons and gobblins on Wall St.

  • The_Rebel
    1. The drop in basis points was far less than in 1929. Also, the events of the past 6 months leading up to today had some effect on the magnitude of today’s decline.

    2. Constituents may not have the best solution for bailing out the financial markets, but when they are e-mailing their congressmen at the rate of 100-1 against the plan, it’s time to sit up, take notice, and improve the plan sufficient to pass it. Failing that, then it must be voted down. You don’t go calling fellow congressmen who are against the plan “unpatriotic”.

    3. If the Dems insist on loading up a new bill with all of their original candy items, then they will get even fewer Republican votes when they pass such a bill. This bill will truly be theirs.

    4. Monetary policy is not subject to a vote, but then again neither is foreign policy. But that doesn’t stop 535 members of Congress from thinking they do have such a vote, and from loading up a bill with all of their favorite goodies.

    5. The sky is not falling. The sun will come out tomorrow. The “Markets” for which you work created this mess. Let’s allow “market forces” to get us out of it. It may be painful for some, even for those who didn’t help create the problem, but in the end it will be better than a government solution that the country is clearly divided over.

    As Ronald Reagan once said, “In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem”.

  • mike_carton

    You guys can’t run a simple web site. You think you are qualified to criticize everybody (Pelosi, Democrats, House Republicans, Bush, Paulson, Bernanke…) and impute motives to them.

    Learn to run a web site first, it’s been having problems for weeks now. You can then start advising on how to fix the financial markets.

  • streetwise
  • PaRep

    by themselves & the Reps. Can BLUGEON THEM TO DEATH ON IT

  • PetraeusForPresident

    While the media blames the House GOP for stopping the bill, it actually helps us. I’ll give you two solid reasons:

    1. It shows they are listening to Main Street, not Wall Street. The Democrats were planning on using this vote as a way to campaign against a lot of our weaker incumbents to paint them as out of touch with everyday American lives. Now they can’t.

    2. Look at how the most endangered Freshman Democrats and the Blue Dogs voted. Almost every single one of them voted NAY. That tells you where the political center of gravity is on this bailout.

    Look, I work in the financial markets and am well aware of the freeze in credit markets. I fully realize the impact this will have on the global economy.

    I also know that socialism (or fascism in the case of the power that Paulson wanted to be vested with) is not the cure to markets repricing risk, and a crisis of confidence in the banking system.

    In the end, all government can do is stretch out and prolong the adjustment. Look at the Great Depression. The worst two years of it were 1936 and 1937 – mostly because of FDR distorting the free market with the heavy hand of government.

  • PetraeusForPresident

    While the media blames the House GOP for stopping the bill, it actually helps us. I’ll give you two solid reasons:

    1. It shows they are listening to Main Street, not Wall Street. The Democrats were planning on using this vote as a way to campaign against a lot of our weaker incumbents to paint them as out of touch with everyday American lives. Now they can’t.

    2. Look at how the most endangered Freshman Democrats and the Blue Dogs voted. Almost every single one of them voted NAY. That tells you where the political center of gravity is on this bailout.

    Look, I work in the financial markets and am well aware of the freeze in credit markets. I fully realize the impact this will have on the global economy.

    I also know that socialism (or fascism in the case of the power that Paulson wanted to be vested with) is not the cure to markets repricing risk, and a crisis of confidence in the banking system.

    In the end, all government can do is stretch out and prolong the adjustment. Look at the Great Depression. The worst two years of it were 1936 and 1937 – mostly because of FDR distorting the free market with the heavy hand of government.

  • SeanH90050

    if the Dems go back and jam through their Frank-Dodd proposal, or even more intervention and perks to sure up their caucus, which even Newt just voiced concern over on Greta’s show…

    A) if the market slides over the next couple days, does Bush sign? Heck, even if it doesn’t slide does he sign it full of Dem perks?

    B) If it slides, and he vetoes, what’s the GOP game plan? The media has a field day showing how the Dems passed something, but was blocked by the GOP. will 30 days be enough to convince people that the medicine is better this way?

    C) If they were to ram it though, why now, and not last week? We know how the public voiced their outrage over it. Are they banking on that changing with the impending market slide? Can they risk giving the GOP the football on this, if the public remains against it? We would, I’d hope, hang them with it, and kill the Bush-McCain tie (assuming McCain votes no and has his own plan) and show how McCain = real change. That’s making a few key assumptions, but it seems like a logical progression.

  • The_Rebel

    In fact, I believe that Pelosi wanted this bill to fail so that the MSM and the Democrats could blame the Republicans, and then get a new bill with all of their wish list items (like Acorn funding, and judges adjusting mortgage payments for those in foreclosure and bankrupcy) included. This is what will probably happen. They could have done it on the first vote, but wanted to extract their pound of flesh from the Republicans. What else is new?

  • cheetob93

    @mike_carton

    You think that criticizing “everybody” (your friends: Pelosi, Democrats, House Republicans, Bush, Paulson, Bernanke…) is equivalent to poorly running a website? I’m in the presence of a genius!

    Before you speak again, why don’t you get a little education for yourself and do us all a favor.

  • hunter

    Is to make it dramatically clear that Barney Frank is a fraud. He is a puppet of FNMA and FMAC. He should be demanded to resign. He stopped reform when it mattered, and now he and Pelosi are playing chicken with the national economy.
    The deference of Republicans to demoslime is disgusting me.
    Why bother being nice to people who are stabbing you int he back?
    Pres. Bush is like Charlie Brown, and Pelosi is Nancy, and his naivete is costing us all.
    Enough.
    The only thing that matters is that the democrat hacks who destroyed FNMA and FMAC are working for Obama.
    WHY IS THAT ACCEPTABLE TO ANYONE?

  • Siberian

    If you watch the footage of it being introduced or read any of the drafts it’s called:

    Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008

    Whoever posted the roll call vote screwed up the name.

  • Whitfox

    Let’s assume this was all the fault of the vote, even though markets were down 3% beforehand on bad international news.

    Let’s also assume that this had nothing to do with Paulson/Bernanke scaring people all week with tales of imminent collapse.

    The stock market fell, on average, 7%. That doesn’t mean American businesses spontaneously dropped in value by 7%. Rather, it means a lot of people don’t want to hold stock right now. And for especially exposed bank stocks, it’s an idea whose time has long since come. (Wachovia’s down 80% on the day, for example.)

    Let the dust settle, and it’ll be a lot more clear where the risk actually is. The herd will move back in good time. While we wait, it looks like a great time for well-chosen investments.

    Granted, this dip is bad for people who expected to withdraw their money in the very near future. But since when was the stock market a safe short-term investment?

  • dld1717

    I pray to God that Republican can find it in themselves to realize just how scared people are. Living in NYC today u could just feel how frantic everyone is and I myself still have a turn in my stomach

    Do I like the fact we need this bill? Hell no!

    Do we need this bill to safeguard many people on the bubble and safeguard the system? Hell yes!

    We need this bill

  • streetwise

    and let Johnny Mac run with it.

  • Neil_Stevens

    Erick has nothing to do with “running the site” technically. To try to dismiss his post with that just shows you to be an idiot.

    Because either a) you just let your mouth run in ignorance of who does what behind the scenes at RS, or b) you knew but you decided to attack anyway, hoping nobody would call you on it

  • fisk2521

    I’m wondering where one might actually find this government plan in black and white … to save the financial markets. Where will the money go exactly …. every cent. who will benefit, who will not….how will it impact the taxpayers? What is the expected result and how soon?

    Why have we become a culture that depends entirely on credit…what ever happened to the concept of buying what you can afford?

    A detailed explanation to the American public is in order….not just from Bush, but from every politician in Congress. If government organizations like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were responsible for the ‘bad debt’ that has not wrecked havoc on our economy, where is the guarantee from our politicial ‘representativs’ that this will never happen again???? I don’t hear it from anyone….. It is not necessary to have an advanced decree in economics to know that giving out loans to bad risk customers is stupid…. Let’s hear someone say it won’t happen again…..

  • PaRep

    Their Buddy Paulson Wasn’t able to get them their goodies & then they realized their chances for goodies went bye bye when the Reps. & Dems voted no

  • markreiboldt

    I supply . Here’s the diary post:

    http://www.redstate.com/diaries/markreiboldt/2008/sep/29/a-few-more-points-to-consider/

  • SeanH90050

    If we win… And if the court system doesn’t uphold the pork promises.

    Scary risks IMO given the trend of the race right now.

  • Tbone

    brain tatooed on his butt.

  • markreiboldt

    you don’t understand how market dynamics work. Ask any other economist or market analyst, and they will show further correlation between the failed vote and the market declines. These results are monumental, and attempting to downplay it only makes you look like you have no clue what you’re talking about. For instance, the reason Wachovia was so low is that trading was halted until its acquisition by Citigroup is approved. The price of Wachovia does not reflect an actual valuation, and certainly doesn’t reflect the valuation of Citi’s purchase price. Also, refer to my points about the comparison of basis point drops, and how that compares to previous credit crises.

  • Doc_Holliday

    There is a point where you argue philosophy, and then there is a point where you prepare for every eventuality. I believed that the bill would go down, and I also believed even more, that within a few weeks, even if the bill passed, the markets would head south because a global slowdons is happening.

    My point is that there are two types of actions one must take. They can argue their philosophy, yet they must also must plan for the time their philosophy does not occur.

    Many here argued for the bail out, but that did not happen. I hope all had nt just a plan a, but a plan b and c too.

  • Rod_Patrick

    Now, the Americans are suffering too from the same desease.

    It’s now epidemic, if not pandemic.

    I just hope that the People will open up their minds and see things as they are and not just absorb the rhetorics of the MSM as is and where is.

  • jimmuy8

    That’s what I don’t get: What evidence is there that this will cure the illness? We got a lot of hope that this will do it. Just like we were told the take-over of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae ought to do it; just like we were told the bailout of AIG should stabilize things.
    If a bailout passes, what do we say next week or a month or a year from now when some other firm fails–and it will, because nothing has yet been proposed to root out the problems, the underlying basis of the crisis. And as sure as the Sun rises tomorrow there will be a major firm fail–where are all the railroad barons of yesterday; instead of breaking up MaBell, we’ll bail them out. “Too big to fail.”

    Another note: I keep hearing about this “small-businessman who won’t be able to make payroll.” Maybe I’m wrong but, I’d be willing to bet that none can be found. Just like the child who can’t get healthcare unless we expand SCHIP. See, we’ve heard these type of “sky is falling” claims before–and now we’re supposed to believe it’s real? Fine. Let’s see some blood, some hardship before we start throwing money after unproven, untested, unwanted, risky schemes.

    Yeah, there’s a lot of people in the business that say it’s vital we support it, I get that. But, my vote is the same as yours, and if you want my vote come up with something better than “Well, a lot of really, really smart people say this is what we have to do.” Well, dumb people deal with smart people all the time and somehow they seem to figure out when things are fishy with surprising regularity.

    Bah, I don’t know. But, I do know I don’t like spending money. Ever. And me keeping my money is always a good idea. I’ve loaned money to friends in a tight spot–guess what? That money has never come back. Now some guy wants a bunch of my money to buy his buddy’s mobile car wash business ’cause his buddy is gonna have to file bankruptcy if he can’t sell it? Yeah, no thanks. Use your money if it really is a good deal. And tell him to sell his boat first. That’s the way I see it.

  • Doc_Holliday

    with the site the other day I went as far as to throw out my password. I thought the better of it and shall remain as long as I remember it lol.

    I still have major issues with the site, how it is run, and how many long term contributors are treated, but I will stick around because of great posters such as yourself.

    btw, the admins have go to get control over all this double a triple posting, it is causing comments and diaries to spend little time in a place available to read. Heck, even I know not to post twice :)

  • speciallist

    n/p

  • Harod

    Exactly we are going to advise the suspension of the capitol gains tax, lower corporate taxes, free trade, and did i mention John McCain was a POW?

  • gamecock

    and several gop senators said they have the votes to filibuster any bill that funds ACORN.

  • rbdwiggins

    House Republican proposals, pass the bill with Republican support and then try to claim credit when the market stabilizes.

  • gamecock

    Most of the blue dawgs opposed the bill and several gop senators said they have the votes to filibuster any bill that funds ACORN.

  • Rod_Patrick

    To MSM, Dems are infallible.

    Unless we fight the MSM, there’s nothing we can do about it.

  • dld1717

    What free lunch are you talking about?

    No one is getting anything free under this plan they are expected to pay it back

  • mbecker908

    The Rs in the Senate will fold like an old tent in a high wind storm. That’s what happens when you don’t stand for anything but keeping your job.

    Sorry GC, I just have no use for the Republicans in DC, top to bottom. I don’t recall a more pathetic bunch anywhere.

  • BlueLandRed

    we just got gamed by Nancy.

    She said she’d bring 140 votes to the table, and she did. The GOP leadership had to provide cover… this was Bush’s Bill after all, even if it was heavily modified by the Dems. This had to be a bipartisan bill, no way were the Dems going to do this on their own.

    And Yes, the bill sucked.

    But now, after the market crash today and the probable down market tomorrow, and the GOP looking like a deer in the headlights, she have pretty much *carte blanche * to pass anything that looks like it will work.

    The Senate will have to follow and Bush – well… the less said about him the better.

    So I just hope she doesn’t decide to nationalize the banks… but that’s my guess as to how this all pays out.

  • speciallist
  • speciallist

    n/p

  • speciallist

    n/p

  • EvanManrow

    He’s a douchebag, too.

  • Rod_Patrick

    She thought that there would be enough votes from the Republicans to pull this thing.

    He allowed her Democrats undergoing reelections to vote against the bill and save their positions.

    Too bad, Pelosi’s lies (hideous partisanship under the cloak of bipartisanship) didn’t work out. Her political greediness (lambasting the republicans even if the votes weren’t cast yet) showed her true color… a croco.

  • olsmithie

    Now, how can we get the senate onto a 2 year re-election cycle?!!

    The shorter term seems to bring out the conservative in the borderline reps.

    Regards

  • olsmithie

    Now, how can we get the senate onto a 2 year re-election cycle?!!

    The shorter term seems to bring out the conservative in the borderline Republicans.

    Regards

  • olsmithie

    I believe that is “Cowboy Up” in Texan talk….

    Regards

  • olsmithie

    nt

  • bk

    snicker

  • speciallist

    n/p

  • speciallist

    you sound like one of the Foxes guarding the Henhouse..

  • Rod_Patrick
  • gamecock

    opposed the liberal Paulson bill.

    There simply is no basis to suspect that we will get a more liberal bill or that repubs would allow an ACORN allowance to go thru.

    We will know soon, so this wild allegation will be shown to be false in real time.

  • Swamp_Yankee

    It’s amazing to me that people cannot distinguish politics from ideology, principles from pragmatism. After all, we are a minority party. All this talk of conservtive solutions are just hot air. “look at us” moments.

    You can be a principled conservitve and principled person and still recognize that all of politics is about compromise.

  • markreiboldt

    but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong. I’m not going to justify myself but rest assured I want what is best for this economy, because I understand what that means and yes, I have value tied to the success of the economy, but so do you.

    You see, people making comments about the foxes and henhouses think this crisis and subsequent bailout is all about rich Wall St people (the ‘foxes’ I presume). In reality, this crisis is about you and whatever you do to support your family, pay off school loans, run your small business, perform your job duties, buy Bday gifts for kids … whatever. It isn’t just about bailing out Wall St execs – it’s about stabilizing this economy so everyone can thrive and have the opportunity to fly around in private jets and summer in the Hamptons (or whatever you want to do with success). So, spare me the cheap accusatory cliches, because it doesn’t really help anything.

    Since you don’t like me, I’ll be hiding and crying in the corner.

  • speciallist

    I bought a dozen and the Lady said..”No problem..pay me tomorrow..”

    Credit is Alive and well!

  • gamecock

    that I might be persuaded to support a non-ACORN, non-save gamblers from F/c’s similar to the final bill for the reason that we are a minority, but to do so, I would have to be persuaded that the world ends absent the bill AND that it does all that can be done to solve the problem and minimize the recession.

    Given that we were told IMMEDIATE action was required two weeks ago to prevent Armageddon; given that Wachovia was bought KNOWING relief was coming together with all the other recent mergers, thus showing private action can take care of problems; that the stock market drop was relatively small % wise (all that matters is %); given that the market is UP 335 so far today, ABOVE where it was pre-bill defeat was apparent (it dropped 400 on the news of Wachovia; and given that the public opposes a bill I don’t think satisfies either of my two criteria

    I HAVE TO OPPOSE THE BILL THAT WAS DEFEATED TOMORROW AND ALL TOMORROWS.

    why shouldn’t I?

  • speciallist

    n/p

  • gamecock

    5