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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

Looking Ahead: The horse race and the size of government

By: Erick Erickson (Diary)  |  November 12th, 2008 at 02:14 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

As they do after each election, the fine folks at McLaughlin & Associates, have released some post-election surveys for everyone to chew on. One poll looked at the size of government and the other looked at 2012 Republican candidates. Both surveys were of 1000 people with a margin of error of +/- 3.1%.

McLaughlin & Associates asked this question:

Would you say you most favor a smaller government with fewer services, or a larger government with many services?

53% were in favor of smaller government and 28% were in favor of larger government. Breaking that out, and pay attention Fred Barnes, David Brooks, etc.:

78% of Republicans favored smaller government, 54% of independents did, 78% of self-described conservatives did, and 46% of self-described moderates did. Democrats were at 33% and liberals at 25%.

More importantly, Hispanic voters were split with 38% wanting smaller government and 39% wanting larger government with 22% undecided.

Age wise, the only group wanting larger government was the 18 to 25 year old bracket.

In addition to the size of government question, McLaughlin & Associates also asked about Republican candidates in 2012. While it is still way, way, way too early, it is an interesting snapshot to see voter thinking right now, having seen the collapse of the McCain campaign.

They found the following lineup:

Mitt Romney – 16%
Mike Huckabee – 16%
Sarah Palin – 12%
Rudy Giuliani – 9%
Newt Gingrich – 7%
Bobby Jindal – 4%
Steve Forbes – 3%
Charlie Crist – 2%
Tim Pawlenty – 2%
Mark Sanford – 1%

29% of those surveyed did not know or refused to answer. The really interesting number to me is the breakout of self-identified conservatives. Among that group:

Mike Huckabee – 21%
Mitt Romney – 17%
Sarah Palin – 16%

Huckabee and Romney were also tied at 12% with self-described independents and Palin coming in at 10%.

Now, and this one stands out to me, people who consider themselves Christian, but independent of party allegiance, favor Palin over everyone else at 21%, with Huckabee at 17% and Romney at 13%.

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  • bs

    what has caused the youth of America to become so brain-dead. My personal theory is 12+ years of liberal indoctrination, but maybe it’s just SpongeBob.

  • bobbymike

    That if someone can articulate a “consistant” conservative message we can win elections.

    Is it a coincidence that the percentage that want smaller government is close to Ronald Reagan’s vote percentage in 1984?

    As for the 18 to 25 group I don’t know a winning strategy for them bigger government probably means student loans.

    Can you convince them that bigger government means higher taxes for them after college? Maybe.

  • youthgrunt

    In general, the youth vote has largely been liberal for a long time. What is the old saw, “A young man who is not a liberal has no heart; an old man who is not a conservative has no brain.”

    But also remember that those in the 18-25 year old range have no meaningful memory of the Soviet Union. They do not remember what things were like behind the Iron Curtain. The “socialism” charge meant nothing to them, because it kind-of sounds nice.

    We have a lot of educating to do.

  • Brandozilla

    I’ve only got 9 more months of being associated with this age group!

  • aaronbg

    I wish the voting age was still 21 years old.

  • EastCoastObserver

    First, our age group is always more liberal than any other. We haven’t started families yet, for the most part, and are still in school, again, for the most part. For those reasons arguments about taxes generally don’t affect us and we focus more on social issues. Being in a college-like or younger setting of friends, most of us tend to have liberal social views.

    Second, we grew up during President Clinton and became adults during President Bush. That is really our only reference in presidents and most of us view Clinton as good and Bush as Bad. Clinton as sort-of liberal and Bush as conservative.

    Answer your question?

  • BlueLandRed

    is as always in the details. The broad question, do you want a bigger or smaller government is really seen by most people as do you want to pay less in taxes? So the results here aren’t surprising.

    The problem is always, ok, now what programs do we cut so spending matches revenue? This is where the Republican leadership has failed since the mid 80′s. They are simply incapable of actually cutting spending and it’s why we’ve got a 10 trillion dollar debt and President-Elect Obama.

  • NightTwister

    Another child left behind.

    Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    • George Santayana
  • Darin_H

    So they don’t care about smaller government. People who pay taxes want it smaller (for the most part).

    You really want to shrink taxes and the government? Take away withholding.

  • aaronbg

    n/t

  • EastCoastObserver

    My age group supported Obama 2:1 and those who were unable to vote this year, but will be able to in 4 years, will more than likely support Obama and democratic governing (unless they do something extraordinarily stupid) in the same ratio. If not more so.

    The public responded to more liberal ideas of getting out of the war and wanting universal healthcare. The tax and spend liberal argument didn’t work. So I think this is a big reason why the republicans right now are searching for a voice. This election was not “vote for me because..” it was “don’t vote for that guy.” Republicans need to create a mission statement that will say we have better answers to healthcare coverage, the economy etc. If not they will be spending many election cycles out of power and become reduced to a southeast regional party.

  • UncommonRight

    Perhaps Obama putting the 18-25 demographic to work will help them sing a different tune. I think also though that schools are failing to teach students the realities and dangers of socialism/communism. Instead students are being taught to not offend, to be politically correct and to see good in every political ideology.

    And anyway, it was really cool man to get out there on campus and yell ‘yes we can’ and ‘revolution!’

  • EastCoastObserver

    I think he is your best bet to get back some of the young vote. He himself is only 36/37. Extremely bright, educated and apparently a very good governor. He can probably do a better job relating to the younger generation than the usual republican/conservative.

  • EastCoastObserver

    I’m just giving an explanation. I didn’t pick my political views because MTV told me to do so. I’ve been following politics for some time and taking a look at the issues and policy positions of each side.

  • reldim

    Give up on the youth vote. They are liberals because they have few responsibilities, no accountability, and these big dreams that anything is possible and the world is really a peaceful and perfectible place if only we would provide the funding and hire the right people to do the job.

    The largest number of them are probably in college, and most likely receiving some, if not most or all, of their support from parents or family. They have no idea about costs, budgets, making ends meet, the burdens of regulations and taxes. Most of them don’t pay enough attention to national affairs to have an even vaguely informed opinion of what’s going on. It’s a wonder we even consider them functioning adults.

    Experience will teach many, if not most, of them that people are not all pure of heart, that government programs, even when run by “good people” are usually miserable failures, and that the world is a dangerous place filled with people who are willing to take advantage of naifs like the youth.

    There is a reason we don’t allow people in this age cohort to even serve as members of the House of Representatives – they don’t have enough life experience to do the job right. And considering that the 25, 30 and 35 year age limits on House, Senate and Presidential offices were instituted over 225 years ago (when people “grew up” faster because they died younger thereby having more experience by 25 than the modern “young adult”) the prohibition is even more significant.

    The best we can do is simply try to expose “the youth” to “real life” at an earlier age and encourage people not to shelter their children and family from reality until they’re in their mid-20s. But in the end, the kiddies will be their utopian idealistic selves regardless and conservatism is no home to the utopian idealists of the world.

  • aaronbg

    HealthCare: Make it private and portable.

    Economy: Reject Keynesian markets as the failure that they are and embrace the Free Market as the success it can be. (See Ukraine)

    National Security: Peace through Strength.

    Abortion: Overturn Roe v. Wade in favor of States Rights.

    Education: Offer School Choice and Vouchers to create a market for the tax payers to decide on.

    I could go on but it would be better if you just read the GOP Platform from 1980.

  • liberalrepublican

    The devil IS in the details.

    If they asked questions like:

    Do you want a much smaller military?

    Do you want to cut back on social security?

    Should we stop funding your local schools from the national government?

    etc. etc.

    I think you would get much different answers.

  • rblack198

    That must strictly mean social conservatives right? I consider myself a fiscal conservative and nothing about the Huckster even comes close.

    As for the above on 18-25 years olds I’m over that bracket by a few years, but honestly they don’t want to work for anything. They want to go to college and get a degree for as little as it takes, get a good job and get a check for as little effort as possible. Having made that blanket statement I will say of course that isn’t true for 100%, probably not even 50%, but a scary % its probably spot on. Liberal teachings have a bit to do with it, but America’s youth have to be willing to sift through the noise and false hope that is big government nannyism.

    The GOP needs to focus on the CHECK part of the job. How much of YOUR money do you think you should get to keep? Do you like having the take 6.2% of your paycheck and 6.2% from your employer with the promise of someday maybe getting some of it back? That’s before income tax, medicare, state and local tax. After that you get even less with sales and property tax.

    Risk/reward and success/failure are key to EVERYONE’s success. The biggest folly of current thinking is the government magically produces money out of thin air and by giving free stuff away everyone wins. Its alarming how many of the young and old alike don’t realize someone pays the bills. Heck as long as its not their wealth being shared who cares right.

    Lastly how the libs got everyone to believe that the American Dream is being “middle class” I’ll never know. Nothing against the middle class, but anybody who strives doesn’t strive for a B- or a C, they go for the A. I personallly want to be filthy stinkin rich.

  • EastCoastObserver

    The problem is that Bush made the Rs into big government. Actually the biggest and most powerful government ever. So I think people looked at both and said well this guy is big government and this guy is big government. But the big government we just had, well I don’t like that kind and this guy is in the same party. In another thread the term for McCain was “Democrat Lite.” lol.

    I think the principles of the party are good, but the problem has been relating those principles to today’s problems. McCain had a different message everyday of the campaign. He was like a scatter shot of ideas. Reagan’s great, but not every republican can pretend to be Reagan. Its been 30 years. I don’t remember Reagan and most people see his philosophy as warped by the present administration into a big government, war seeking, neoconservative party.

  • Huan

    i would consider any numbers within 6 points of each other to be a statistical tie for the moment.

    i don’t think 2 governors make a good ticket. a governor at the top (Palin, Jindal, or even Crist) and a legislator as VP.

    i am intrigued by Palin/Forbes among the names listed

  • aaronbg

    McCain was, is and always will be a moderate squish who never met a principle he wouldn’t compromise.

    This is why we need a conservative leading our party instead of a moderate. If our candidates would campaign, and more importantly govern, according to the principles laid forth by Reagan we would still be winning elections and downsizing govt’.

  • EastCoastObserver

    But they aren’t. That is the problem. Bush was supposed to be a conservative and he lost it. You need a more libertarian like candidate and not a neocon.

  • lawguy9801

    He is a one-trick pony – social conservatism. Taxes? Liberal. Foreign policy? A naif. Obama may run up 60% or more in the “swing” states if Huckabee is the nominee.

    Now, there’s nothing wrong with social conservatism of course, but if you don’t have a nominee who’s solid on all three legs of the stool of conservatism – Social, economic and foreign policy – you have a depressed turnout from the leg that isn’t represented and electoral disaster.

    Our next guy needs to be Jindal or (if he can clear his family name) Jeb Bush.

  • youthgrunt

    That you “give up” on the youth vote–or any other demographic. That is just the same as the African-American vote. We are not going to get 51% of it (for a long time), but moving it from 96%–or whatever it was this year–to 80% would be a huge victory. The same goes for the youth vote. Moving it from 66%–if that is what it was–to 60% would be a big change.

    But your observation along with many others here are absolutely correct. The youth don’t have responsibility; haven’t seen the failures of idealism; don’t understand the “real world”; etc. Actually they have, they just don’t know it.

    I saw a video of Newt explaining free markets by using UPS and FedEx as an example, which very simply demonstrated that things that we experience on a daily basis show us how free markets work better than government. These things must be taught.

  • lawguy9801

    is damaged goods. I don’t think she can be an effective nominee. She’d win conservatives and get them fired up but lose big among moderates and independents. How many times would we see the Katie Couric interview replayed and hear about the Africa and NAFTA comments and the $150K in clothes? Sorry, just don’t see it. We need a fresh start, and Jindal is that fresh start.

  • aaronbg

    Any adjectives thrown before it means it’s the the wrong person for me.

    Burke, Buckley, Reagan these should be the giants whose shoulders we stand upon.

    I know you were pretty much agreeing with me there I just wanted to reiterate.

  • Scope

    Huckabee is no more conservative than the man in the moon. He stayed at the party to late this year and that gave us another non-conservative candidate. By 2012 he very well may rethink his ambitions as he will not hold a candle to the candidates he will be running against.

    Read a headline today- “Reagan is still the Gold Standard of Presidents” according to a recent survey. Palin and Jindal meet those standards.

  • MGamo

    which I am a part of is a joke. I agree with what has been posted above. It’s even worse in Mass. because kids up here have been indoctrinated with liberalism since birth, through the schools, parents, and govt. policy. The 18-25 group has the littlest clue because they are still stuck on the silver spoons of parents and college, which limits their responsibility and self reliance. Wait until they see their hard earned dollars “redistributed” to Larry Lazy, who sits back and collects govt. checks, then their tunes will change.

  • youthgrunt

    We thought that Bush was supposed to be a conservative, but it was always “compassionate conservatism”. I was asked by a Democrat in 2000 what that was and I answered incorrectly. In hindsight it was just repackaged big government liberalism.

    But there are two times that I am looking for: the end of November and the middle of January. By then we will know who the Congressional leadership is and then who the GOP leadership is going to be. It appears to me that we will see a decided turn toward proven conservatives.

  • youthgrunt

    You may be right, but I hope not. Not just because of Palin, but because of what that means.

    It would mean that as a society we will not allow a candidate make a mistake or have an off-interview or be hated by envious campaign staffers to recover. It means that we are doomed to be “ruled” by inexperienced politicos who haven’t done enough to have done something wrong.

    Robert E. Lee is quoted to have said, “Judgment comes from experience; experience comes from poor judgment.” I hope there is room in politics for candidates with judgment.

  • Illinicon

    because looking at the 2010 senate calendar, it looks likely that Blanche Lincoln would vote with us on the fillibuster, sense seeming to support this would put her in hot water in Arkansas. Ken Salazer might not want to risk his centrist image by allowing a far-left wing bill to pass. Also FOCA, would put Majority Leader Reid in a tough postion as he isnt all that popular in Nevada and flipping on the abortion could be the last straw for many Nevadans who feel Reid has put the job of being party leader over being one of their senators. The first thing Steele needs to as RNC chair is to get as many top-tier senate candidates as possible in order to keep potentially vuonerble Democrats as centerist as possible these next 2 years.

  • Illinicon

    I meant to put the above comment in the FOCA post.

  • Jim_Tomasik

    if you would have used 3 more question marks.

    The man in the moon is pretty dern conservative. He has to be. He has had one car in the past 40 years and a very small carbon footprint.

    I do see your concerns. Huckabee has a very sunny disposition while the man in the moon harbors a hidden dark side.

    Man, am I bored.

  • Illinicon

    introduce Dukakis in 1988 doubted they would ever vote for that longwinded boring Governor of Arkansas. Then in 1992 he was a rockstar. Alot can change in 4 years. What she needs to do is to go finish her campaign promises as Governor of Alaska and start to fade away from the national scene a bit after the inauguration, because her being in the public eye is just an excuse for her critics to go after her.

  • cookcountyconservative

    “Conservatism works, everytime it’s tried.” Rush Limbaugh

    I truly hope the GOP leadership can get it together. Ronald Reagan was the first president I voted for when I was 19 years old and like so many he inspires me still to this day.

    I so wonder about the youth in this country and what inspires them today. Do they learn anything about RR or even the history of socialism and communism in school? I doubt it. What do they learn about morality and ethics these days. The grew up watching anything goes via the entertainment industry and the daily dish of dirt about Bill Clinton’s escapades on the news.

    When I was young may parents insisted I read the newspapers and watch the news as much as possible and understand what was going on in the world and with my government.

    I was hiding the papers and turning off the television from my elementary school daughters during the Clinton years. I didn’t want to discuss blue dresses and cigars at the dinner table.

    What we have in store for the next 4 years is really frightening to think about.

    Sigh… I am keeping hope alive for 2012, no 2010 and will be back volunteering with the Cook County GOP (yes it does exist)- It can’t work if you don’t try.

  • LI_Conservative

    While I agree with this post, I just wanted to ask if anyone has seen the updated info from the Leo Donofrio case in NJ regarding the citizenship issue?
    The updated info is at the blogsite

    http://www.blogtext.org/naturalborncitizen/

    The case wasn’t denied by Justice Souter and now is going to be submitted to Justice Thomas.
    While I don’t think Donofrio will succeed it is interesting to see that it is movng forward unlike Berg’s case which was poorly submitted.

  • EastCoastObserver

    Also, (in regards to Bush having the “most powerful” goverment and a need of republicans to shy more toward the Libertarian end of their philosophy) Bush did a lot of impinging on our Constitutional Rights in the name of national security. Yes, we need a very strong national security force, but it should never be at the expense of this country’s citizenry. People argued that FISA was breaking our 4th Amendment right to privacy, but there was never actually any real proof. About a month ago, a few whistle blowers at the NSA came out and stated how agents were listening into American overseas calls, recording them, laughing at them, telling people to listen in on the “juicy” ones. This is just an outright violation of the Constitution and proves there should be no question as to whether or not the relaxing of the 4th Amendment through FISA violated our rights.

    We need to remember we are a country of laws and that the citizens of this country have inalienable rights. That should stand whether at war or peace. Unfortunately, and it has happened in the past, fear gives government an ability to encroach on our rights. It aint right.

  • Illinicon

    likely comes from the fact that he was an opponent of the bailout on Fox during the debate on it on the hill. The base hated it and he was one of the few top people to stand up aganist it. Given Paulson’s backtracking on it today in terms of money not going to buy up bad mortages, I am sure the backlash aganist it will continue to grow. There are alot of conservatives (me included) who supported it relunctintly because atleast the government was going to make some money off it and it just wasnt a 700 billion dollar blank check rewarding bad buisness decisions.

  • My2Cents

    Public education (i.e., “government schools”)

  • streiff

    that we adhere to here.

    First, there is no 4th Amendment guarantee of “privacy.” Don’t trust me. Read it.

    Second, overseas calls are not covered by FISA.

    Third, even if the story is true it isn’t a violation of the Constitution.

  • My2Cents

    …no good conservative can ever compete with a corrupt and propagandistic leftist news media.

    If that’s the case, there’s no hope.

  • finaljeopardy

    As a woman, I’ve been seeing “damaged goods” pop up all over conservative blogs as a criticism of Sarah Palin. It is offensive, because when you see (insert woman’s name here) + damaged goods, it reads “slut.”

    I don’t know whether that is the intention of those making the comments, but I will point it out nonetheless. It is destructive and seems underhanded.

    Sarah Palin is undeniably enjoying popularity among the party right now, and 2012 is four years off. There is no sense trying to guess what experience she will have gained by that time or what the political landscape and election issues will be then. It is pointless trying to find a candidate for the GOP. Just stick to issues; it’s a safe guess reform, energy independence and the economy might be issues, even national security.

  • EastCoastObserver

    Its to guard against unreasonable searches and seizures and has been interpreted by the Courts to have an element of privacy to it. You need probable cause or a warrant to “search” a person and within the term “search” is included listening in on conversations. So (your right if the stories are true, which I don’t believe there are any reasons to think they aren’t) having government officials eavesdrop, record and pass around conversations between overseas Americans, who are often service members, without probable cause or a warrant isn’t something that sits well with me and a lot of the legal community.

    Now, for the sake of National Security, they should be able to listen in to the initial conversation, but once it is found that nothing foul is afoot they should have to be ordered to stop listening.

  • EastCoastObserver

    Its to guard against unreasonable searches and seizures and has been interpreted by the Courts to have an element of privacy to it. You need probable cause or a warrant to “search” a person and within the term “search” is included listening in on conversations. So (your right if the stories are true, which I don’t believe there are any reasons to think they aren’t) having government officials eavesdrop, record and pass around conversations between overseas Americans, who are often service members, without probable cause or a warrant isn’t something that sits well with me and a lot of the legal community.

    Now, for the sake of National Security, they should be able to listen in to the initial conversation, but once it is found that nothing foul is afoot they should have to be ordered to stop listening.

  • Illinicon

    in the youth vote the moment Obama’s servitude plan is introduced in Congress. Obama is another fad among college students, being in the age group living in the middle of Obamaland (subrurban Chicago) his appeal to the youth vote is nothing more than him being a hip guy who wants to bring a new tone to politics. The moment Obama makes them do something they will lose intrest in him and he become another pol to them.

  • EastCoastObserver

    Its to guard against unreasonable searches and seizures and has been interpreted by the Courts to have an element of privacy to it. You need probable cause or a warrant to “search” a person and within the term “search” is included listening in on conversations. So (your right if the stories are true, which I don’t believe there are any reasons to think they aren’t) having government officials eavesdrop, record and pass around conversations between overseas Americans, who are often service members, without probable cause or a warrant isn’t something that sits well with me and a lot of the legal community.

    Now, for the sake of National Security, they should be able to listen in to the initial conversation, but once it is found that nothing foul is afoot they should have to be ordered to stop listening.

  • Granny_T

    Huckabee was one of the few politicians that came out against the recent financial bailout. He was right – according to the news today – it isn’t working and just like Huckabee warned – their are many more coming forward with their hands open waiting for handouts, too.

    Huckabee has earned the support of many fiscal conservatives- including Neil Boortz. He also appeals to black voters, youth voters, blue collar voters, and of course moral values voters.

    Huckabee didn’t have the name recognition this time – that won’t be a problem next time.

  • Fallon

    Actually, I’m tired of being respectful and I am getting tired of defending Governor Palin against the onslaught of criticism that is still being thrown her way from “friend” and foe alike.

    I am going to bite my lip and just say, I strongly disagree.

  • NightTwister

    Huckabee does not appeal to fiscal conservatives. They loathe him, at best. So long as people continue to push candidates like this, we go nowhere.

    There are other good social conservative candidates available that don’t send 1/3 of the base off to either vote for the other side or stay home.

    No Huck. No Romney. Moderates and squishes need not apply.

  • Jaded

    the biggest jerk….how dare you call an accomplished woman “damaged goods” I think your brain is damaged because you obviously FEAR this accomplished woman…..neanderthal!

  • Jaded

    he is talking MY language and I quote “we are the grassroots and we are taking this party back and I will tell the party appratus that this is not your father and mothers GOP”

    Now that is what I have been saying for over a year!

  • WildWomenRule

    in this last election but who has voted republican in the past (Bush in 00 but not in 04), I don’t think republicans should count on Palin to bring the country around to your side. Speaking from the center, no one except for the strictest, most conservative base will vote for her. She absolutely cannot win with the majority of the country because she is too far to the right. Just as Pelosi (whom I cannot stand) would not have a chance in a general election, neither would Palin.

    I honestly do believe that Obama is going to govern to the center–that’s the key. Americans (myself included) are much more centered than extremist.

    Cheers.

  • SCSoxFan

    Was the McLaughlin survey of all voters, or just Republicans? It seems to indicate that it was all voters. That is interesting, because Palin got 64% support in last week’s Rasmussen survey of 1000 GOP voters. Of course, 64% support in 2008 for the 2012 nomination will get you exactly nothing.

    I coud support Palin or Jindal. But, Jindal will have to decide fairly quickly whether he wants to run for re-election in 2011 or try to run for President as a governor who hasn’t finished his first term yet (sound like anyone else who ran this year?).

    Romney and Huckabee are, to me, poor potential nominees. Neither could get the nomination this year, so why would anyone expect their appeal to broaden in four years? Huckabee would be competing for evangelicals with Palin and, perhaps, Jinidal, and Romney would still have the nagging problem of an inability to connect with voters (something that would help running against Obama). Palin would also have a seriousl leg up with another large group, GOP women.

    Our future is in the governors, Palin, Jindal, and Sanford.

  • BigGator5

    I wish people will get off this “Moderate = non-Fiscal Conservative” trip, because it’s not funny anymore!!

  • Spiral

    You have hit the heart of the issue.

    How does a conservative party, the Republican party that we would like to have, govern a country populated by various types of socialists?

    You have Leftish socialists who wear the Che Guevera T-Shirts.

    You have the Rightish socialists who are pro-life but support the National Education Association, in-state tuition for illegal immigrants and higher taxes.

    You have pro-business socialists who say that we have to support the 700 billion dollar bail out to “keep the economy going.”

    Given all that, where’s the constituency for cutting Social Security, cutting Medicare, cutting food stamps?

  • DGaines

    because of crappy parenting – nothing else.

  • Spiral

    The fact is that most Republicans didn’t want McCain as their nominee.

    But he won it by default. Anyone who ran in 2007-2008 should be told, “You had your chance, against very weak primary opponents. You didn’t make your case. Your gone. Bye.”

    If Huckabee were nominated, I’d just sit on the sidelines and watch rather than participate.

    If Romney were nominated, I might be willing to support him.

    But why can’t we get someone like Governor Sanford from South Carolina, a true fiscal conservative?

  • BillHilton

    You are precisely correct. All four of my sons worked from very young (age 8 and up) in our restaurant. They saw us start it, and work 18 hours a day 7 days a week to make it work. They understand viscerally the realities of life. They are all now conservatives or libertarians.

  • havermeyer

    I’m not sure Romney and huckaphony are out just because they didn’t get it this time? Not every President has succeeded on his first try to get through the primaries.
    Screw polls. They change. A dynamic leader can change them.
    I don’t see how Palin is automatically out. I like her message. In particular tapping our own resources and being reasonable.

    I want to know when the new “Leper” list is going to start for all the fools who voted for the bailout. Just for my clarification…nobody knew how to fix this credit crisis, but we gave them $700B to test some theories on how to fix it? (allegedly…what’s up w/ this $2T they’re looking for?) And all the money went to the mensas that are running their companies into the ground?

  • NightTwister

    I have no idea what you’re talking about.

  • Spiral

    He will never live that one down. And he shouldn’t.

    We must have a candidate who has a proven record of cutting taxes, not just someone who talks a good game and actually raised taxes as governor of Arkansas.

    Governor Sandford of South Carolina.

    Anyone but Huckabee.

  • Illinicon

    she is the frontrunner for the 2012 and she does not need to start that campaign too soon. The goal of this party should be 2010 and to make we sure he have atleast 190 house seats (+16 gain for us) and 46-49 senate seats (a +3 gain for us)for the second half of Barry’s term.

  • BigGator5

    Huckabee does not appeal to fiscal conservatives.

    …

    No Huck. No Romney. Moderates and squishes need not apply.

    Again, people need to stop lumping us Moderates with those “non-fiscal conservatives”. Enough man, this issue is what drove Moderates and Independents away from the Republican Party the last two elections.

    Think about it man! Obama ran on pro-tax cut on the middle class, while promising to pay for the tax cuts by raising the taxes on the rich. Now while I found that distasteful, I can understand the appeal.

  • Illinicon

    Jindal in his first year has gotten through the LA legislature, 6 different sets of tax cuts and a sweeping ethics reform package. Prior to Katrina 0 fourtune-500 companies were based in LA, by the end of his first term atleast 3 will be. Barry’s resume isnt that full of results after 12 years of being a legislator at both the state and federal level.

  • Proudwinger

    Jindal and Palin are the only two on the horizon who are not tarnished. The real decision will come in 2010 when the next presidential election begins. The lower Obama’s approval numbers the more candidates will make a go.

  • NightTwister

    and you equate that to me saying all moderates aren’t fiscal conservatives?

    Sorry, no sale.

    There are plenty of moderates that are fiscal conservatives, but social moderates. There are also those that are fiscally and socially conservative, but moderate on a strong military.

    Maybe you should ask before you assume.

  • finaljeopardy

    We should keep tabs on who voted for it. Right now, we need every Republican we can get. Still, here is the full list of votes.

    http://westcoastsuccess.wordpress.com/2008/10/05/list-of-house-members-who-voted-for-bailout/

  • Granny_T

    either -since Ronald Reagan ran and lost the first time around. Neither the elitists on the right or the left liked Reagan either. He ran the 2nd time and won by a landslide because “we the people” did like him.

    Even many of the Obamabots like Huckabee even if they don’t agree with him on the social issues – they still understand why he holds his views.

    Don’t know what crowds you run with -but the only ones I’ve met that don’t like Huckabee are either those that hate Christians or those that loved Romney and couldn’t stand the fact that many of us didn’t.

  • finaljeopardy

    If I hadn’t seen how crooked the Dem primaries were, how they treated women and had I not been thoroughly creeped out by Obama’s striking resembling to Il Duce, I might have voted for Obama. I never watch TV, either, so I’d read about him before I had seen him.

  • BigGator5

    Choose your words with more care next time.

    Frankly, I am sick of people lumping me with people who aren’t fiscally conservative. I can’t go anywhere on this site without someone blasting Moderates for this or that, when it’s the corrupt Republican leadership (which, by the way, most of them call themselves “fiscal conservatives”) that is the true source for getting us where we are today.

    I may be a moderate when it comes to social issues, but I will side with you any day of the week as long as you live and breath fiscal conservatism.

  • NightTwister

    Not even close.

  • NightTwister

    -nt-

  • havermeyer

    yes. We need opposition to those dirty libs (I don’t care if they’re R’s at this point)

    We are definitely in a corner. Hopefully we can fight our way out. Bipartisanship is for punks.

    Everytime they get together and agree on something I lose money or freedom.

  • mbecker908

    Nobody’s “lumping you” in with anybody. Frankly, about the only person around here who cares what you think is you and your little footstomping rants every time a comment is made about “moderates” wore out a long time ago. Like maybe the first time you stomped off in a huff.

  • Granny_T

    and charisma to hold his own against Obama? Who will appeal to not only the grassroots movement of the Christian right – but also get some of the black, youth, and union voters? We have to find someone that can reach across Party aisles to win some of those moderate Democrats and Independents. Someone that has the communication skills to get the message out. Someone that is willing to debate the issues without kneecapping the opposition.

    Have you watched Huckabee’s new show on FOXNEWS? We the people LIKE him! Many of us are hoping he’ll be able to get more FairTax supporters so America will stop penalizing productivity. Huckabee openly spoke out against the bailout. He spoke out against corporate greed (and for the record – do did Reagan)

  • mbecker908

    But he was governor of AR for ten freaking years and grew the state government more than slick Willie. The guy makes GWB look like Ron Paul on fiscal issues, he’s never met a dollar he didn’t want to spend and his promotion of the FairTax is about the most dishonest thing I’ve seen any politician do.

  • mbecker908

    Write a diary about how to implement the FairTax. Hint, won’t happen.

    Huckabee couldn’t unite Republicans in AR, let alone nationally. You commented about name recognition earlier and you’re right. The VAST majority of Republicans understand that Huckabee = Small Pox. Huckabee governed as an unreconstructed disciple of Huey Long for ten years. He left the Republican Party in AR in arguably worse shape than GWB has left the national Party. The guy is worse than RonPaul (who is just a joke).

  • janis

    All of his associates are liberal to radical, his plans for this country are radical, his orientation is not as an American citizen, but rather a citizen of the world.

    The only thing that was the least bit moderate about him was his campaign rhetoric, but the campaign is over. Notice how stuff keeps disappearing off his website? That’s so you can’t go back and see what plans he put there and then compare them to what he’s actually doing now and in the future.

  • mbecker908
  • BigGator5

    Don’t ever call me Crock again. To you, I am BigGator5.

  • BigGator5

    Now common man, there is no need to get personal.

    Did I get personal? All I said, was choose your words with more care.

  • chips_and_salsa

    You raised them well. Many young people, indeed are sheltered and not politically independent until they get a job, cut the chord from their parents and start paying taxes. Then they have their awakening and formulate their political identity.

  • chips_and_salsa

    It’s also quite likely that he will let down many of his most ardent supporters (ie: youth, African-American, far leftists) when he can’t follow-through on the long list of promises he campaigned on. Once that happens I expect to see the youth vote and, possibly, the African-American vote return to being cynical, apathetic and dismayed.

  • chips_and_salsa

    Many people (young people especially) don’t understand or acknowledge taxes because it’s withheld before they ever get their paycheck. If they had to cut a check to the govt every year they would definitely learn to hate it as much as conservatives.

  • kyle8

    nt

  • bs

    You can’t vote unless you pay federal income tax. We have to put a stop to this welfare tax rebate to non-taxpayer crap. Given the chance, that group is going to continue to vote themselves handouts.

  • mbecker908

    Period.

    On a national level we can only win with a solidly conservative message. Fiscally conservative first, as in smaller government and personal responsibility. Second, strong national defense. That’s actually a constitutional job of the federal government. Third, judicially conservative, as in judges at all levels who understand the concept of “original intent”.

    Unfortunately, most “moderates” do not fall into any of those categories. They will pay lip service to the second just like Democrats, but when the rubber meets the road they’re nowhere to be found.

    Since Ronald Reagan, we’ve nominated exactly zero Conservatives. GHWB? Not likely. Dole? Nope, he was just a legislator. GWB? Hardly, he’s damn near destroyed the Party. McCain? Same mold as GWB and Dole. The net result is that we’ve either gotten our clocks cleaned at the ballot box or we’ve won a Pyrrhic victory of historic proportions.

    For offices other than President, we can tolerate some moderates. For instance, that’s the best we’ll likely do in CA or the north east. But just to be really clear, people like Christy Todd Whitman, while I welcome her vote, has no place in the leadership and no say in priorities of the Republican Party. Same for Colin Powell, and until the Party assigns moderate ideas and ideals to the dustbin of history we won’t have a shot at winning a national election.

  • havermeyer

    Just wondering. You sure are selling him hard…

  • BigGator5

    You know what, I am going to run for congress. Just to spite you.

  • mbecker908

    whose feet are made of wet clay and whose back doesn’t have a spine. There’s no place in leadership for a weasel like that, but cast your vote for a Republican Speaker and I’ll send you money (assuming there’s not a conservative in the race).

  • mbecker908

    The American Issues Project conducted a poll of voters in four swing states, Colorado, Florida, Ohio and Virginia.

    When asked which of the following statement they agreed with about the Republican Party:

    * 30.5 percent said the party has been incompetent and is not getting the job done

    * 28.1 percent said it has forgotten its principles and lost its way

    * 23.7 percent said they generally agree with its issues and positions

    * Only 9.6 percent said the party is too conservative

    On the immediate economic issue, the credit crisis and bailout, voters blame Republicans more than Democrats by 11 points (34 percent to 23 percent). By a huge majority (69 percent to 21 percent) the voters also believe the bailout passed by Congress is unfair to taxpayers.

    The problem isn’t that we’re not moving left far enough, which is the “moderate” mantra, it’s that we’re not standing on conservative principles.

  • BigGator5

    I have some choice words for you, but I have to email them to you.

    Thank you.

  • mbecker908

    And I can ignore you in my email just as easily as I can on line.

  • BigGator5

    You know what they say: “You can’t spell ignorance without ‘ignore’.”

    And by the way, you’ve made my case. It this shouldn’t be about Conservtives vs Moderates, but how Republican Leadership has let us down. Until people realize this, we’ll be in the minority for a long time to come.

  • BamaID

    I don’t mean to interrupt a good conversation, but I would argue that any right to privacy isn’t in the 4th amendment. It is in the 9th. Don’t trust me. Read it. Those “conservatives” who say that the Constitution doesn’t guarantee the right of this or that, have never read the 9th and 10th amendments. The Constitution doesn’t grant rights, it only preserves our rights which were granted by God and reinforces the particular rights which were in jeopardy when it was written.

  • BamaID
  • mbecker908

    In this particular diary, you’ve got eight posts. All eight of them are screaming “MEEEEEEEEEE”, and not a single one of them is directed to the point of the original post. You bounced in here to take offense at a NT post that had nothing to do with you. You got your panties in a wad over comments about “moderates” without ever even attempting to argue a point of policy or politics.

    You have no case. At least one that has anything to do with policy or politics. It seems you just surf RS with a chip on your moderate little shoulder waiting for someone to try to knock it off. Then you stomp your feet and huff off.

    And, the vast majority of your posts are simply a Crock. Like or not, but it’s your problem.

    Go sulk someplace else.

  • BigGator5

    I give up. I should know better than to argue with stupid.

  • antisocial

    I am appalled at the lack of reasoning and logic in “young generation”. Also it seems like nobody is teaching or reading history.

    Second, we grew up during President Clinton and became adults during President Bush. That is really our only reference in presidents and most of us view Clinton as good and Bush as Bad. Clinton as sort-of liberal and Bush as conservative

    That tells us most people are not really aware of the relatively recent American history. I wonder if most folks know about LBJ and his “great society” and “war on poverty“? And “The Treatment” from him?

    Here is a war snippet from LBJ’s page on Wiki (only trusted source for young generation :-) ):

    The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which gave the President the exclusive right to use military force without consulting the Senate, was based on a false pretext, as he later admitted. It was Johnson who began America’s direct involvement in the ground war in Vietnam. By 1968, over 550,000 American soldiers were inside Vietnam; in 1967 and 1968 they were being killed at the rate of over 1,000 a month

    Isn’t Iraq War much Better?

    I’ll give you a piece on Clinton.* If only he did not take a cut-and-run approach… We did not have to get attacked on 9/11*

    About 75 cruise missiles landed in Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan at four militant training camps around Khost and Jalalabad: three camps in the Jarawah area near Khost, one of which, El Farouq, trained primarily Afghan Arabs, and Al Badr camp 10 miles to the west which also trained Afghan Arabs and was run by bin Laden.
    The Khost camp, Zawhar Kili, was reportedly the scene of a meeting of “senior leaders of Islamic militant and terrorist groups linked to bin Laden,” and was regarded by Pakistani intelligence as a “summit” convened by bin Laden. Whether bin Laden would definitely attend was uncertain to the Americans, but the attack was made partly in hopes that bin Laden would attend and be killed. After the attack, the CIA heard that bin Laden had been at Zawhar Kili but had left some hours before the missiles hit.

    U.S. President Bill Clinton announced the attacks in a TV address, saying the Khost camp was “one of the most active terrorist bases in the world,” adding that “I want the world to understand that our actions today were not aimed against Islam” which he called “a great religion.
    >

    I wish he attacked Afghanistan then…

    How about Jimmy Carter? How many “young” people in your generation know that he was a disaster? If they don’t then they should have at least known this year…. Here is a a report from BBC from this year…

    “The US has more than 12,000 nuclear weapons; the Soviet Union has about the same; Great Britain and France have several hundred, and Israel has 150 or more,”

    The US, a key ally of Israel, has in general followed the country’s policy of “nuclear ambiguity”, neither confirming or denying the existence of its assumed arsenal.

    Former Israeli military intelligence chief Aharon Zeevi-Farkash told Reuters news agency he considered Mr Carter’s comments “irresponsible”.

    “The problem is that there are those who can use these statements when it comes to discussing the international effort to prevent Iran getting nuclear weapons,” he said.

    And I am not going into CRA – Jimmy carter and Bill Clinton

    I agree with Aaron Gardner… The voting age should be much higher than it is right now. As increasing number of kids choose to “remain kids” until they are done with college we will have to live with this. Once these folks start their families and start realizing what it actually means to look after a family and work in a free society and less government they will become conservatives :-) Until then they will keep dreaming of “social equality”, “global warming”, “world peace”, “gay marriage” and all other nonsense.

  • antisocial

    McCain was appealing to moderates and independents. RIGHT? Where did he stand before Sarah Palin came in? NOWHERE. There is a very nice diary out today. I posted to that diary some time back. Take a look at it if you have time or inclination…

    Read my post here

    Also you seem to be smearing the Governor. I sent an email to bill O Reilly.. I’ll paste that for your benefit..

    Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 12:21 AM
    To: oreilly@foxnews.com
    Subject: Carl Cameron Report on Gov. Palin
    Importance: High

    Bill,
    On your show Carl Cameron reported “smears” for Gov. Palin without naming sources. That piece comes across as a “smear job” disguised as reporting. You have always preached credible and proven reporting. If he has evidence I have no problem with that report. Evidently he does not. Any sources who are “coward” enough to be anonymous don’t deserve to use “fair and balanced” media to advance their agenda. How do viewers and even yourself trust any such reporting?

    Thanks,
    Praveen

    Please don’t smear. You lose credibility if you have any.

  • JoeG

    By those that think you’ve got the right to privacy when traveling abroad. Customs can and does look anywhere they want.

    The same applies to shipping anything in or out of the country – mail included.

    From the founding of the country, individuals have no such rights.

    The same applies to phone calls.

  • ToddVeirs

    I doubt it. And I say that because I don’t think anyone as far out of the mainstream as you think she is could possibly have approval ratings in the mid 80s, as she has.

    I think the only mildly controversial stance she has is on the life issue. I’m not aware of any other position she takes that could be characterized as “far right.”

    The problem is the McCain people let Palin’s opposition define her. After the convention, she disappeard into a bunker — and the “enemy” had days and weeks to tell everyone what Palin stood for. It was a story replete with references to her weird theories about dinarours roaming the earth only a few decades ago, of her charging victims for rape kits, of her banning books and firing librarians, of her abusing power by firing people willy nilly just because she could. Etc. Then, when she finally comes out of the bunker, there’s so much pressure to perform that we have the Couric debacle — now, not only do people see her as a far right wacko, they think she’s stupid as well.

    My lasting regret of this election is not the loss by McCain, it’s the idea that a rare political talent has been squandered. I told a friend months ago that there were only two certifiable stars in the Republican ranks — one was a relatively unknown governor of Alaska, the other a relatively unknown governor of Louisiana. There are many fine young Republicans, but I think only those two have the charisma, the “it” or “wow” factor.

    And I’m not sure Palin can overcome the woefully inept roll-out…..

  • JoeG

    “Don’t know what crowds you run with -but the only ones I’ve met that don’t like Huckabee are either those that hate Christians or those that loved Romney and couldn’t stand the fact that many of us didn’t.”

    I know a lot of people (and count myself among them) that don’t fit any of your pigeonholes.

    Romney is a social moderate who ran to the right to try and get the nomination. I understand those who don’t like him… because I agree with them. He claimed to be a social conservative, but the pesky little thing called a record showed otherwise.

    Truth is, you know deep down that the same accusation is true about Huckabe’s fiscal cred.

  • JoeG

    I presume the reason he’s low on the list is pure name recognition.

  • JakePrime

    There’s a big difference that I’ve noticed gets lost here. Spineless conservatives call themselves conservatives, then vote for pork and whatever else will keep getting them elected. There are certainly principled moderates (i.e. the vast majority of Americans), and they are not the same as insincere conservatives.

  • JSobieski

    (1)Triangulators

    (2) Cowards

    (3) Relatively uninformed

    (4) Those who value “getting along” more than policy

    (5) People with strongly held beliefs that do not in the aggregate coincide with the right-left divide

    I like and respect (5), and can tolerate (4) although (4)s should never be leaders.

    (1) and (2) are scum.

  • Lwyrett

    This is anecdotal, but don’t count out the “next” youth vote ~ the teens who were too young to vote in this election, but will be voting in 2012. My personal experience with my daughter, son and their friends are that this group have many who are real conservatives, who deeply value life and are sincerely pro-life, and who truly want smaller, less intrusive government ~ and many of them are just not embracing their parents politics. These teens are actively engaging in discussions on myspace, facebook, and on gaming sites such as ghia. These kids have high school English classes with reading lists that include Orwell’s 1984 and Karl Marx’s The Communist Manifesto and they consider Orwell’s message a serious warning and are rejecting Marx’s message as both impractical and morally destructive in its dismantling of an individual’s liberties. My teens’ friends followed this election avidly, were well-informed, and cried, yes, cried, when McCain lost. And felt very let-down by their “senior” peers ~ the 18-25 age group.

    This group also connects with Sarah Palin, listens to Bobby Jindal and Michael Steele ~ AND gets a kick out of Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity AND Rush!

    Also, don’t discount Sarah Palin ~ she has a way of connecting with the viewer in these one-on-one interviews ~ she really comes across as genuine and sincere ~ and, more importantly, she has a way of responding to the interviewer that makes the viewer feel that they are sharing a heartfelt conversation with her over a cup of coffee. This Reganesque ability to connect can’t be manufactured, and is invaluable.

  • Granny_T

    No, I’m not Gov. Huckabee’s grandma; but I do have 18 grandchildren – most of which are homeschooled. I support Huckabee to the best of my ability because I did every voter match quiz I could find and his views on the issues are closest to mine. In at least one of them we matched 100%. The only one he wasn’t my top match on had his stand on 2 of the issues misrepresented. Since I knew where he really stood on those that one would have been another 100% match if it would have scored it correctly. For the record – I did my first voters match before really researching the candidates – which is what made me check him out in the first place.

  • Granny_T

    Thanks for posting that tidbit of info. If all kids would take the time to research and be truly informed voters rather than following their “leaders” – our future will be in better hands. I learned during this election cycle that even those I had trusted for years didn’t really tell the whole truth but distorted it to promote their favorite candidates or help destroy their candidates opposition.

    I’ve read that the reason more of our young people are becoming pro-life is because the scientific evidence proves that life begins at conception. Some have said that if the evidence we have today would have been available decades ago abortion would have never been legalized in the first place.