Sorry…

Had to be said…

Just caught a bit of Rudy G being interviewed on CNN and he made the same point as you Erick, it’s a distraction when there are real issues to confront with a conservative message. At least that’s the point he made after he stopped laughing at the issue.

The Obama team is tanking, and need a good distraction for everyone to rally around. So the MSM finds some people who would either love to get their agenda out there, or find some people who believe the whole “birther: thing, and start covering them, however with the liberal slant that these folks are idiots, and are a majority of the conservative/republican movement. At this point do we really need to pursue this given the fact that the asshat dems even with supermajorites are still cowards and won’t pass anything without the bi-partisan cover and Obama is doing a good job showing his true colors, and is tanking because of it.

…it’s obvious this guy is Manchurian.

Isn’t it?

The issue isn’t that Obama is not an American citizen; that ship sailed when Hillary Clinton didn’t use it against him in the primaries. What we conservatives should be pressing into the national dialogue is not that he’s Kenyan or Indonesian by citizenship, but that we have a president who hates us. And he does – he hates our freedom and seeks to take it away, he hates our traditions, he hates our capitalist system, he hates us on race, he hates our dominant culture, he hates our foreign policy and he even hates our allies.

You can be a citizen of this country and hate it. If anything, that’s worse. And that’s what’s far more apparent and actionable than whether Obama was born in Hawaii or not.

Same Stuff Different Day.

Whenever I meet liberals I always tell them that they elected a 50% American, 50% Black, 50% Christian and 100% Socialist President.

You are right in that there are much more critical issues at hand. We can have some fun sometimes.

Erick,

If you want the issue to go away, quit talking about it.

That being said, you raise VERY valid points on records not released by Dear Leader. Years from now, when he’s out of office, they’ll get leaked. By then, his damage will be done, and it will take a generation for us to get back to where we are now… well, rather where we were 8 months ago.

Making no statement as to whether Obama was born in Hawaii or not, you are focused too narrowly on this issue. Assuming that you are right, and I won’t debate the point (though it may be debatable) that there would be no legal consequences if it were proved that Obama was born overseas.

There would still be a big political fallout, and it relates to this exact point that you raise here. As you just pointed out, there is very little that we know about Obama’s past, and most people are currently okay with that. If it were proved that Obama has lied about something in his records (such as his place of birth) and lied repeatedly, you can certainly bet that people are going to be redoubling their efforts to look into these other records. He would lose any moral authority. It would be a major embarrassment for him and for the Democratic Party.

You may very well be right that there would be no legal fallout, but that is not the end of the story by far.

Making no statement as to whether Obama was born in Hawaii or not, you are focused too narrowly on this issue. Assuming that you are right, and I won’t debate the point (though it may be debatable) that there would be no legal consequences if it were proved that Obama was born overseas.

There would still be a big political fallout, and it relates to this exact point that you raise here. As you just pointed out, there is very little that we know about Obama’s past, and most people are currently okay with that. If it were proved that Obama has lied about something in his records (such as his place of birth) and lied repeatedly, you can certainly bet that people are going to be redoubling their efforts to look into these other records. He would lose any moral authority. It would be a major embarrassment for him and for the Democratic Party.

You may very well be right that there would be no legal fallout, but that is not the end of the story by far.

Yikes, I think you’d best take that off “The List.”

Otherwise, someone might call you and the person who emailed “birthers” — you know, the ones who want to know the hospital where Obama was born.

Seriously, to you and the rest of the “Let’s remind everyone how stupid birthers are” crowd, give the scapegoating a rest. They are not the focus of evil in the modern world, and it’s bad form to sneer at them over and over. You’re wasting your ammo on the wrong targets.

****************
However, THIS is spot on!

“Barack Obama not releasing his birth certificate fits a pattern of non-disclosure from the man.”

****************

Just keep saying that.
Keep the focus on the broad range of examples that demonstrate his repeated lack of transparency, and the resulting disrespect to the citizens and laws of this nation.

No wonder people are questioning his background; he’s begging for scrutiny by being so secretive about even his brilliant scholarly background — work he should be proud to highlight.

“But please, spare me any more on the birth certificate. What may have been legitimate was, once he was sworn in, rendered moot. And the fixation risks taking activists off the front lines of the fight for freedom down a rabbit hole of distraction.”

How is it a distraction?
Yes it may be true that he is President now and there is nothing that can be done is not the point. The point is if the man who occupies the White House is truly eligible.
To say that valuable time and resources are being wasted on this is an exaggeration.
What resources ?
What time ?
Maybe some bandwidth perhaps but no one who wishes to not discuss it have to against their will.

I have not heard of any Congressman or Senator who has said “I’m doing my best to stop Obama’s health care plan but those damn birthers keep getting in the way wasting all my time.

In my opinion it is a legitimate question. Just because there are other questions does not mean that we can’t discuss this one as well.
Many people are big baseball fans but could we claim that baseball is distracting us from the real issues before us?

There seems to be at least two camps on this issue.

One camp thinks that it is perfectly reasonable to ask Obama to provide his birth certificate. It is not as if we are asking him for a goddam DNA sample and a piece of hair.
The other group it seems are embarrassed by the first group like we are talking about controlled demolition and somehow looking like lunatics.
They like to use false points to make their point.
“Oh so you think if Obama is not a citizen then McCain and Sarah Palin then become President” or something like that.
No one has said that.
Whatever your opinion may be it is true that the man has gone to great lengths to conceal that simple piece of paper.
Talking about Obama’s birth certificate only harms one person.
Obama.
To say that this harms the GOP is an idea that comes from the left first. It’s like saying “Republicans risk alienating the hispanic voters if they oppose Sonia Sotomayor”
I think the harm done is greatly over-estimated at least.

Maybe it is silly. I don’t know.
But I’ll tell you this. If I had the authority I would definitely look at the damn thing and investigate this further.
Nothing gets a leftie more uptight than someone trying to bring up Obama’s citizenship.
For that reason alone I won’t let this rest.

It’s about the truth, man. That’s all. We just want the truth. If he was born in Hawaii, we just want it established. Go ahead: insult and call names, if that is what does it for you. But what’s the point of observing the world if trying to establish truth is bad form? Nobody thinks he will be removed for it. But the truth has value of its own. As old as I am, it still shocks me when people forget that so egregiously.

As it turns out, it is irrelevant, but not for the reasons you think. It is ultimately irrelevant because when he is no longer president in somewhat less than his officially remaining 3 and a half years, it won’t have been because of the matter of US citizenship. That certainly won’t have helped, but it won’t be the reason.

Go ahead. Yuck it up. Or worry about what ‘birthers’ are doing to the GOP, if that is more your thing. But when the time comes, don’t say “who could ever have ever known?” Because there will be those who did.

the transcripts &
“Most notoriously, Barack Obama allowed is campaign to accept foreign donations, a matter that got passing mention from the Washington Post and not much else.”

I’d like to see what all other candidates and eventual CIC produced school records before the fact and wonder why the pass has been given.

Sealed? Why?

Smoke. Fire.

is declared himself of some other birthright to reap the benefits of a top flight Education – and we still don’t know the benefactor.
Indonesian?
Kenyan?

I really don’t know and doubt we will ever know the truth which means – surprise – our President was not properly vetted. Period.

“What is good for me is thus for thee”

I need a whole lot of docs to get a DL, yes?

Like keeping a eye on the days left until August recess and the end of session.

http://rpmullins.wordpress.com/another-day-down-and-37-more-voting-days-to-go

Obama has gone to so much expense and trouble to conceal his birth certificate, school records, legislative records, bar association records, etc., when the common standard for (most) politicians is full-disclosure, that it is a reasonable supposition that there is something there that he wants to hide.

Of course, we don’t know what it is, but I can only conclude that there is something politically embarrassing or even illegal. It may well be that there is nothing wrong with the birth certificate, but if he releases one record, how can he refuse to release others? It would be the proverbial camel’s nose under the tent. Safer to stonewall everything.

There are a number of reasons why the “OMG Birthers” posts are at least as counterproductive as the birthers themselves.

First, I have seen at least as much energy spent on trying to counteract birthers as I have seen on this website by people asking to see the certificate. It may very well be that attacking Obama on his birth certificate is unproductive, but it is even more unproductive to attack political allies because they are focused on a different issue, especially for the 2 reasons discussed below. For those people who say there is so much more to attack Obama on, then get to it! Quit wasting your time attacking the “birthers” and attack Obama’s policies.

This is especially true because as loudly as the birth issue may be in the background, it is firmly in the background. I have yet to see the post that says, “Forget attacking Obama on his policies, where is that birth certificate?”

Second, you may be embarrassed to be associated with “birthers” but the “birthers hurt our political chances” is a red herring. People vote for candidates, not for voters. Does anyone here legitimately think that Obama lost a single vote because of the 9-11 truthers? He didn’t. You can pick your candidate, but not who will vote for him. It would be insane for a candidate to run on the issue of Obama’s birth certificate, but just because you think a subset of his supporters are crazy, it has virtually no effect on a candidate.

Third, if people truly believe that birthers are crazy, then what is the point of trying to rationalize with them? They’re crazy. Why try to use rational argument if the object is irrational? That said, if you are convinced in the rationality of your argument, why resort to insults? It’s bad form, at best.

Fourth, the argument that “Even if it were true, it doesn’t matter” is simply wrong. Assuming arguendo that it would not disqualify Obama from office, the political fallout would be huge. If there is one thing the American people do not tolerate in their leaders, it is getting caught in a lie. (See Watergate, Lewinski) If it were proven that Obama was not born in Hawaii, he would instantly lose almost all credibility and certainly likability. The entire strength of his presidency thus far has been premised on his personal likability, not his policy decisions. Discovering that he had intentionally lied would almost certainly guarantee both a massive shift in both houses in 2010 and Obama as a one term president. It is certainly conceivable that he would have difficulty even winning the Democratic primary. And that is assuming there is nothing else in the numerous documents, which as Erick points out, have been carefully guarded.

In a two-system, you will never like everyone in your party, heck most of us don’t even like all of the people our party has elected. At the least, the “birthers” are focused on the opposing party’s candidate, not their own party’s voters. That if anything may make them more rational than the “out with the birthers” crowd.

I think you are right that it should not be a distraction or obsession, but I think it is important to throw another log on the fire if it is not a distraction or an obsession. Is that so wrong?

I have run into some of these “Birthers” in person and most are 9|11 truthers as well so what side of the fence are they on? What side they are on may well be another conspiracy theory.

(tossing another log on the fire) The one that seems to be not getting much attention…

Ok, Obama 1961 to 1967 lived in Honolulu, Hawaii, (birth certificate aside) and from 1967 to 1977 he, his mother and stepfather lived in Indonesia where he attended public Muslim schooling in Jakarta, but reportedly not a madrassa the most radical Muslim brainwashing schools so it was OK. Now to attend public in Jakarta reportedly you must be a resident, no dual citizenship. So how did Obama become a US resident again?

Ok, now that I have them distracted with another conspiracy theory I am organizing a counter protest on heath care noon 7/30/2009 449 Front Street, Chicopee MA. Come on I need some more boots on the ground on this, don’t be distracted this is where the fight is.

Same with the “Obama is a Muslim” people. Some of those who are a part of our coalition have been inducted into these groups, but the top leadership of both groups isn’t concerned with helping conservatism (or rational thought, for that matter). The birther movement’s leadership, for instance, has a great amount of overlap with truthers, and the “Obama is a Muslim” meme was created entirely by Hillary campaign staffers.

And yes, I know that my argument is a form of ad hominem, but it’s still important to see that the sources of these arguments are mostly hostile to Republicans and conservatives.

Like most people who want to dismiss the ‘birthers’ you do so on the basis of incorrect facts. The most egreious of which is the fact that you claim that because Obama was born of a US citizen he is a natural born citizen. In truth, this is completely and utterly false.

While there is no disputing the fact that his mother was a US citizen, it is very clear that according to the laws at the time, his mother was unable to even provide citizenship to Obama if he was not born in Hawaii. Eugene Volokh a well respected law professor at UCLA and noted legal blogger made a similar error but after reviewing the pertinent laws concluded:

“So, as I now read 8 U.S.C. § 1401, “a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States” before Nov. 14, 1986 is a natural-born citizen only if the citizen parent “was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years” — the same rule that was in place in the early 1960s. See also United States v. Flores-Villar, 497 F. Supp. 2d 1160, 1162-64 (S.D. Cal. 2007) (taking the same view and concluding the change from ten years/five years to five years/two years only applied to people born after 1986), aff’d, 536 F.3d 990 (9th Cir. 2008) (so assuming but not discussing it in detail); Rico-Ibarra v. Mukasey, 281 Fed. Appx. 694, 695 n.1 (9th Cir. 2008) (not precedential).”

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_30-2008_12_06.shtml#1227910730

So the question is whether Stanely Ann Dunham was at least 19 years old at the time of Obama’s birthdate of August 4, 1961. This is the only way she would meet the 5 years after her 14th birthday requirement as laid out above. Stanely Ann Dunham was born on November 29, 1942 as per a wikipedia.com entry. This means that she was 3 months and 25 days shy of her 19th birthday when she gave birthday and was thus unable to pass US citizen status to Obama through her own citizenship.

One can agree or disagree with the ‘birthers’ but please let us do so on the basis of the facts, not on the basis of incorrect assumptions.

I cannot understand how you could not find Harvard Law Review Articles if they ever existed. The Law Review has to have been published and many people must still have copies, and there is no way all fo those could have disappeared. If he published articles there, or in his time at the University of Chicago, someone must still have it lying in a bookshelf somewhere. I would think this applies for the Illinois State Bar Association records as well.

I see he was at the Review in 1990, someone must have copies of those years.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedailymirror/2008/09/barack-obama-ha.html

I want the republican party to purge itself of all the crazies. I don’t want the democrats winning over independants who voted for Obama even though they are fisically conservative but didn’t believe the republicans were fiscally conservative and were worried about how much influence the far-right has on the republican party. All they see are elected republicans apoligizing to Rush limbaugh, Sean hannity still saying he learned everything from revrand wright. and glen beck crying or yelling on every episode.

Obviously Obama is going to increase spending and increase the deficit. It will be SO easy to beat him in 2012. All the republicans have to do is keep a strong fiscally conervative image. But all these sides shows are the only thing that can derail it.

Not a rickroll!

http://blog.robballen.com/2009/07/28/p3639-breaking-news-shocking-proof-that-obama-was-not.post

The carriage return has come home to roost.

I don’t get what the problem is if someone wants to look into his birth certificate? There is enough suspicion into the whole thing to merit it, including the twins that were born after him in the same hospital, with an earlier BC number than Obama. Then the off again, on again, was the BC destroyed, the grandmother saying that she witnessed the birth in Kenya… too many things. It is not as though all America holds their breath while someone finds out the truth! There are certain people who are looking into it, while other are working on healthcare, fairness doctrines, hate crimes, and fraud and pork into the stimulus spending. There is enough crap to go around and then some. I think the distraction is within the whole Republican party when they only endorse “certain” candidates, and People afraid of looking bad to the democrats by being labeled a “birther”! Who cares what they think? I think it’s time we quit caring about what what the media and democrats think and start to hold fast to the constitution and Biblical foundations that formed this country. After all, THIS IS a constitutional issue. I heard Arnold Swartzenager last night talking about wanting to be president and if it happened in his life time, he would like to be a candidate. No offense to Arnold, but let’s hope it doesn’t happen in anyone’s life time! (Although it may have already happened) Think of the possibilities of that happening openly!!! So let’s quit letting this be the divide of the conservative right and let’s get on one other thing that may make Obama loose more credibility. He’s loosing it, just not producing it now!

So let me get this straight…Those who seek to resolve the birth certificate controversy draw the fire, but not the man who causes it. Obama has never provided definite proof that he is a natural born citizen as required by the Constitution. Neither the Democratic National Committee, the Electoral College nor the Supreme Court have required he produce the documents that would certify his standing and put the controversy to rest. So, essentially, it is only Obama who can put it to rest. And he can do it simply by authorizing the release of his original, “long form” birth certificate. Yet he won’t and hides behind his legal team in order not to do so. Those who simply are being good citizens by asking for documented proof that the Constitution is being adhered to are painted as kooks, racists, maniacs, morons, aliens…you name it. Those that are screaming the loudest trying to shut the inquiry down are the rabid left and a few squishy conservatives. All those with even a modicum of logic need to ask why.

The way I look at it, there are three outcomes to this scenario:

1) the birth certificate issue is a mistake, he really is a citizen, and is simply allowing the issue to persist in case he needs it at a later date. In this case, at some point in the future when his political opponents have lined up behind the birth certificate challenge, or when he really needs a misdirection of attention, he’ll produce unchallengeable documentation, instantly painting his challengers as kooks, undercutting arguments against his policies, and temporarily silencing opponents on all fronts.

2) the birth certificate issue is not a mistake, but when successfully challenged, changes will be made to accommodate his presidency. It’d be a real shocker to me if a Democrat dominated legislature, and a Supreme Court that really doesn’t want to shake the foundations of this country by ousting a sitting president, tried to force a president out of office because of how many months his mother did or did not spend on US soil prior to his birth. And would having them visibly alter or ignore law to suit help or hurt this nation?

3) the birth certificate issue is not a mistake, and Obama is removed from office. Here’s the outcome everyone pushing the birth certificate issue wants, right? Yet, what would happen if this succeeded? In my opinion, he would become a still-living martyr to the cause, a walking, talking JFK II, able to push his agenda, operate freely, and dominate politics forever. All the people who voted for him, but are currently questioning his honesty in his promises, his judgement in guiding policy, and the ultimate aim of his goals, would immediately snap back to unquestioning support for the man. This would easily be portrayed and seen as a dirty trick,winning on a technicality, a nasty, underhanded manouver from the Right, and would solidify support firmly on the Left for decades to come.

At a time when all opposition energy needs to be focussed on saving the world’s premiere medical community, on keeping our health care out of the hands of bureaucrats, on freeing up capital to grow the economy, and on letting our vacationing congressmen know exactly what we think of passing laws they neither read nor understand, attention is once again turning to birth certificates. No matter what the outcome, this issue cannot turn into a win for conservatives. We don’t just need to win, we need to win in the right way. We need to win on the issues, and thereby win the real support of voters, and gain the political capital to remove the burden of the burgeoning bureaucratic monster off the backs of the American people.

1. There is litterally zero proof in the public arena that he was born in HI. The scaned digital pic of the (alleged) short form HI colb proves exactly nothing.

and

2. Barack a/k/a Barry’s father was a foreign national. Furthermore, Barry was born with foreign citizenship (British subject to be exact). That is no conspiracy theory, both of those issues were stated as fact on his campaign web sites.

How is it, that someone who was Governed by a foreign country at birth, could be considered a NBC of the U.S.?

Also, this is about NBC, and not “simply” citizen.

He would NOT have received U.S. citizenship based, only, on his mother’s citizenship status. Per U.S. law at the time of his birth (December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986).
Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock:
“For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.”

“http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html”

Obama’s mother didn’t give birth to him at 19 (14 + 5). Therefore, Obama could not obtain U.S. citizenship based only by virtue his mother’s citizenship.

Note that the law only pertains to ‘Citizenship’, and not ‘Natural Born’ Citizen. There is a difference. Governor Schwarzenegger from Ca. is a citizen, yet he could not be POTUS because he isn’t a Natural Born citizen. He’s a Naturalized citizen.

There is nothing in our 250+ years of history that state someone with that background would be considered a NBC. Nothing. There is, however, plenty in both writtings and court opinions that state NBC = born in country to two (2) citizen parents. A few examples:

“THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel’s definition of Natural Born Citizen);
SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel)
MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U.S.162,167-168 ( 1875) (same definition without citing Vattel);
EX PARTE REYNOLDS, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel):
UNITED STATES V WARD, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D. Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel.)”

“http://www.scribd.com/doc/17519578/Kerchner-v-Obama-Congress-DOC-34-Plaintiffs-Brief-Opposing-Defendants-Motion-to-Dismiss”

Bottom line take home question of the century. This is a legal question, that is…this is a Constitutional question:

“HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN’S STATUS BE “GOVERNED” BY GREAT BRITAIN (From Birth)?”