Round One is closed. Let’s get to the second round today.
- Amazing they found the time by Melody Warbington (rwm52) (Diary)
- Friday, May 25 is Brett Kimberlin day... by evilbloggerlady
- And the people of Alabama paid for that waste of time! by Neil Stevens (Diary)
- It may be, but apparently our state legislators by Melody Warbington (rwm52) (Diary)
- Troop matters really don't matter......... by arthurjake
- Let's not and say we did by Neil Stevens (Diary)
- Who is Brett Kimberlin? by evilbloggerlady
- Conservatives GRIPED about Reagan by zachv (Diary)
- Hey The Anti-Gekst. Where'd ya go. by gekster (Diary)
- And you are one to say what? by gekster (Diary)
- Okay, PTTP... by lineholder (Diary)
- kowalski: don't ban him for awhile. Let us play with him first. by gekster (Diary)
- romney/demint is going to win in a landslide. by mikeymike143 (Diary)
- Latin American police states are that way =====> by aesthete (Diary)
- Heh, childish nonsense by commonsenseobserver
- I am now a 'rock star' as I have my own groupy. by gekster (Diary)
- Agreed... by Dave_A (Diary)
- Cash vs accrual based accounting by zachv (Diary)
- Hey, he's not even NOMINATED yet... by Dave_A (Diary)
- Yea, I've got a fan. and what was your username before you got banned. by gekster (Diary)
- Ha, gek, you've got your own personal troll by zachv (Diary)
- I agree with Jon Huntsman too, but by katem
- And you sir, by The Anti-Gekst
- So tell me idiotobserver how.. by gekster (Diary)
- Then you should drop the 'commonsense' from your username... by gekster (Diary)
- That may be Line by PowerToThePeople (Diary)
- Appreciate it by Neil Stevens (Diary)
- That is why by PowerToThePeople (Diary)
- That poll in question is not what I'm worried about by commonsenseobserver
- Taxes & pay by norris
- What??? by commonsenseobserver
- So a marist/nbc poll show Obama up, and you take it at face value? by gekster (Diary)
- PTTP, here's additional information by lineholder (Diary)
- Excellent Observation, kevinaw2 (nt) by kipling (Diary)
- If the poll is mostly garbage, your words not mine... by gekster (Diary)
- I suppose they lived in Ohio... by commonsenseobserver
- gekster by Kenny Martsolf (Diary)
- So commonobserver... by gekster (Diary)
- So much for limited government by JSobieski (Diary)
- I think History shows that by constitutional (Diary)
Get Local
COMMENTS
COMMENTS
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Mitt Romney, the Winner. Be Happy About it.
by constitutional (Diary) -
Problem: Biased Teachers. Solution: Use Technology to Put Parents in the Classroom
by cmndr45 (Diary) -
The Case Against 434 Main Street, Tewksbury, Ma
by lineholder (Diary) -
House Republican Women: Working for You
by Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers (Diary) -
Obama bitterly clinging to Rev. Wright's god, Navy Seal guns and gay marriage sympathy money
by Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) -
Anti-Walker Bias Surfaces in Much Politicized Legal Probe
by briansikma (Diary) -
The Battle For the House 2012: An Early Take
by davenj1 (Diary) -
Congress Seeks To Establish George Orwell's "Ministry of Truth"
by irish067 (Diary) -
Broward Republican Party offers Supervisor of Elections evidence of deceased voters on Broward rolls
by William E. Lewis Jr. (Diary) -
Barack Obama's "Freedom of Worship"
by kevinaw2 (Diary) -
Moe Lane: #rsrh Well, put me in overshoes and call me a duck. http://t.co/gCFqhAPZ Barack Obama is scared of Mitt Romney.
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Moe Lane: MoeLane: #rsrh Did Jesse Kelly BET somebody that Ron Barber wouldn't support Obama? http://t.co/1roLBRol
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Moe Lane: MoeLane: #rsrh Ace of AoSHQ is vicious towards Levi Johnson. http://t.co/U9oNG2r2
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Moe Lane: MoeLane: #rsrh Ann Althouse contemplates the Matter Of Wisconsin. #wirecall http://t.co/L216uZS5
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Dan McLaughlin: Barack Obama is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life. http://t.co/Sb48RkA8 #rsrh
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Dan Spencer: Rasmussen: 51% Oppose Forcing Religious Organizations To Provide Birth Control. #tcot #RSRH
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Jeff Emanuel: This is so target-rich I don't even know where to begin ¦ Obama signs massive, 'imperfect' spending bill http://t.co/Z5yGXhAl #rsrh
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Dan Spencer: Dem Heidi Heitkamp, running for the U.S. Senate says Obama failed the one test America had for him--to unite the country. #tcot #RSRH
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Dan Spencer: Don't miss @politicalmath's MarketWatch rebuttal infographic http://t.co/nmXfp6H2 #tcot #RSRH
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Neil Stevens: I already miss being represented by Mary Bono Mack. http://t.co/OVO319W1 #rsrh
- Watching The Left Dig Themselves Into A Hole by lineholder (Diary)
- Why TED CRUZ Should Be the Next Senator from Texas by abeldred (Diary)
- An Open Letter To Gov. Romney by Toby Calvert-Lee (Diary)
- What did Bain do? Come on Oblivious Obama, lets dance... by WmCraig (Diary)
- Barack Obama's "Freedom of Worship" by kevinaw2 (Diary)
- Desperation or Isolation? Obama Should be Feeling Both, just ask the NBP! by checkmate2012 (Diary)
- Really? Romney could win? by JimmyGee (Diary)
- Thrown To The Wolves! by SmoovJC (Diary)
- Common good fairness promotion: Lawyers Biden & Obama, Bain's Romney and Joe the Plumber by Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary)
- A Trucker's open letter to Mitt Romney by Michael Harrington (Diary)
- Mitt Romney, the Winner. Be Happy About it. by constitutional (Diary)
- A Muffin (racist) cartoon (Thank you Elizabeth Warren for the idea!) by wag (Diary)
- An early take on 2014: Guess Arkansas' next Senator and Governor by gawken (Diary)
- The REAL Federal Deficit by wbedding (Diary)
- While Lowenthal and DeLong Bicker about how to Woo Democrats, Foley Continues to be Best Choice for #CA47 by Steve Foley (Diary)
- Our Spending Problem in Perspective by Evan Feinberg (Diary)
- Romney, Education and Hispanics by davenj1 (Diary)
- Time to call out the dems & raise taxes on the rich by thego (Diary)
- Democrat Compassion Is Destroying Us by Thad Hunter (Diary)
- Obama Campaign Suspended...In Wisconsin, for Recall by Brian Fraley (Diary)
- Can Romney win? A question by Hugh Hewett by WmCraig (Diary)
- He helped us get Bin Laden and now we've hung him out to dry by politicalwoman (Diary)
- Why Shouldn't The Judiciary Be Considered For National Office? by fairfaxchris (Diary)
- Could a Romney/Petraeus Ticket Be a Game Changer? by Myra Adams (Diary)
- "For Greater Glory" Movie Takes Aim at Government Suppression of People of Faith, but may not come to a Theater near you on June 1 unless you act. by hanoverhenry (Diary)
- Be careful what you wish for ... Obama's "Mitt-Fit" by politicalwoman (Diary)
- "MR. NOBODY FOR PRESIDENT PLEASE" Say 40% Democrat Primary Voters by jamesmpratt (Diary)
- Candidates to Support in Texas by conservativerock5 (Diary)
- The Sound of Retreat! by Bethany (Diary)
- Congress Seeks To Establish George Orwell's "Ministry of Truth" by irish067 (Diary)
- IGNORING ELECTION FRAUD by longtimeconservative (Diary)
- Biden: 'I Have a Beautiful Home, You Pay Me a lot of Money' by rightwingnut2 (Diary)
- Obama will enact legislation [closed and annotated] by floridarepublican (Diary)
- Electoral Math: Still a Tough Road Ahead by davenj1 (Diary)
- Corey Booker, Jeremiah Wright, and Political Truth by Eric Estevez (Diary)
- Anti-Walker Bias Surfaces in Much Politicized Legal Probe by briansikma (Diary)
- "Pay Their Fair Share" vs. Tax Refunds to Illegal Aliens by lineholder (Diary)
- Religion and Politics: Why Jeremiah Wright Matters by kipling (Diary)
- Romney's Alternative Path to Winning by tooncesthecat (Diary)
- NATO's (1%) left Chicago; we (99%) are recovering by politicalwoman (Diary)
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Mike Pence All The Way (N/T)
BigGator5 (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 2:57PM EDT (link)…
Educated (About The Issues Facing Us Today), Dedicated (To Making A Difference), And Highly Motivated (To Getting Things Done)

Who are these people...
Wes (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 3:26PM EDT (link)…. the ones that would seriously like to see Sarah Palin in the White House? I’m a conservative, and you make us all look foolish. Supporting her candidacy will surely send President Obama into another 4 years.
Show wisdom and nominate someone that has the tools to lead our nation. Sarah Palin does not possess those tools. Gingrich, Barbour, Pence, Condi Rice, Pawlenty… those are leaders. Palin is a celebrity politician just like Pres. Obama. We need real leaders.
Wes
Opinion
dforston (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 3:32PM EDT (link)She is a celebrity politician AND a real leader.
"Show wisdom...."
H (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 4:11PM EDT (link)“And agree with me.”
Newt Gingrich? NEWT GINGRICH? Were you paying no attention in November man? You would bring in Newt just as we are throwing out the remainder of his Class of ’94 cronies in 2012?
@ReadChesterton
irishfreedomfighter (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 4:20PM EDT (link)are you a fan of G.K. Chesterton’s?
Isn't everybody? -nt
H (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 4:53PM EDT (link)@Read Chesterton
Keith The Red (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 11:41PM EDT (link)If everyone were a fan, maybe we wouldn’t be in so many messes. Maybe if voters just read at all, right ??
Gingrich of pelosi on a couch on the beach fame?
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 7:43PM EDT (link)THAT Newt Gingrich?
Or perhaps you mean the Newt Gingrich that was all in on De De Scozaffava…you remember…he’s the one calling conservatives names for refusing to support her
THAT Newt Gingrich?
Please!
What???
irishfreedomfighter (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 4:18PM EDT (link)I grant you that Palin is not a good leader on particularly exciting… but really, Gingrich, Barbour, Pawlenty, and Rice? Ugh.
Pence, Ryan, and possibly RIck Perry are the best candidates to me.
I am one of 'those people'
Mark Malcolm (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 6:59PM EDT (link)and I believe Sarah Palin, who has held an executive position which Hopey McChange did not, can win in 2012 so long as there isn’t a third party candidate to bring her down.
By way of full disclosure, I was sold out for Sarah in ’08 and I’ll start ’12 sold out for her, but I’m willing to consider alternatives if intelligently positioned.
I may not agree with what you say but I’ll defend your right to say it to the very death.
Rumblings from Nader's direction.... (or .. don't assume you know who the players are this far out)
acat (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 8:32PM EDT (link)http://hotair.com/archives/2010/12/10/nader-obamas-a-con-man-hints-at-indie-run-in-2012/
Okay, that’s the “from the far left” Dem candidate… all we need now is a rumor or two from a “center left” one, and Obama is toast.
The point being McCain was a decent (not great, but ..decent) candidate to go up against Hillary – but he was far from the best we could have picked to go up against Obama…. let’s not make that mistaeak again, ‘kay?
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
“He’s a con man,” Nader continued. “I have no use for him.”
gamechange11two Saturday, December 11th at 9:38AM EDT (link)Nader on Obama. I never thought I’d agree with Nader on anything in this lifetime.
I didn’t know until after the the election that Nader even ran in ’08. I never thought to look him up and just assumed he chose to skip this one. The LMS must have been given orders from the top to spike coverage of any competing campaigns from the left. Will the media Obamatons be as compliant in 2012? One thinks not.
The disruptive effects of the internet...
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:07AM EDT (link)are taking a larger and larger bite out of the Mainly Stagnant Media.
Yes, Nader ran in ’08, and yes, it was largely ignored by the networks.
If they choose to ignore real stories, I choose to ignore them. Funny how well it works… (well, for me anyway)
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
Newt Is About the Establisment
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:04AM EDT (link)He supported Dede Scozzafavva in the NY 23rd.
Palin supported the Conservative in Doug Hoffman.
Also who can forgot Newt sitting on that couch with Pelosi talking about solutions to stop global warming??
Is that that kind of leadership you’re looking for Wes?
We should bring in someone from the outside
trink509 Friday, December 10th at 4:52PM EDT (link)that is why I like Herman Cain.
I don't think any of the candidates in this bracket will be president
m_quick Friday, December 10th at 5:02PM EDT (link)Mitch Daniels would be my top pick, but I don’t know if he could excite people enough to take on Obama. Judging by the people who look like they’re running now, Huckabee might have the best shot. If this is all we got, we might as well give the nomination to Saracuda and get Rubio or Christie on the ticket in 2016.
I really don’t know how this country would look after 4 more years of Obama, I hope some dark horse candidate rises up from somewhere. Or Palin somehow gets more credibility. Worst case scenario is the Presidential candidate being such a dead weight they ruin our chances to take back the Senate and hold on to the House.
Not looking for excitement
redtillimdead (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 5:33PM EDT (link)Boring is a plus for me. Obama is exciting. Obama is a terrible President. I want someone who has experience balancing a budget and winning tough races. I want someone with experience. I want someone competent. I want someone who does what is right for the country, not for himself. For me, this person is Mitch Daniels.
Nancy Pelosi can kiss my asstroturf.
Good point
m_quick Friday, December 10th at 5:49PM EDT (link)I’m right there with you, I don’t want celebrity or a rock star. Coolidge is one of my favorite presidents.
And people may be sick of ‘exciting’ as well after Obama. Plus Daniels did easily win re-election in 2008 with Obama on ballot. Daniels would probably be able to take Indiana back from being a state Obama could win again. We’ll have to see how it goes in the debates and primaries. We have some good candidates, just gotta get them elected.
You mean the Mitch Daniels of the truce on social issues...and the Mitch Daniels calling for tax increases to balance the budget? nt
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 7:47PM EDT (link)And the Mitch Daniels who turned a deficet into a surplus, and privitized a highway, saving billions...
m_quick Sunday, December 12th at 12:49AM EDT (link)nt
Daniels also has impressive achievements in the realm of healthcare
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 12:53AM EDT (link)The opposite of Romneycare
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
For that matter
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:52AM EDT (link)He has a great record on the issues of abortion and gay marriage. Daniels really is the anti-Obama: most of his supporters like him for his record, and most of his detractors dislike him for his rhetoric.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
That's just it isn't it?
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:27AM EDT (link)If you want to speak of me as an enemy…be prepared to be my enemy…
and I put special emphasis on his recent comments about raising taxes which in this economy is exactly the wrong answer….and combine that with his early push for tax increases when he first assumed the governor’s seat requiring the legislature of all things to slap him down…
this tells me he has a strong instinct and inclination toward raising taxes to fund leviathan…. putting him above Romney and Pawlenty and below everyone else mentioned in my book.
Daniels didn't call you an "enemy"
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:42AM EDT (link)As a governor with a well established social conservative record, he was setting forth what he believed to be a desirable course of action.
You are definitely free to disagree with it (I do), but to say that he is calling you an “enemy” is to mischaracterize what he said.
People on the same side have to be able to disagree with each other in terms of tactics without becoming enemies. Otherwise, we won’t be able to function very well as a team.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
This is the thing for Me on that Jsob....Christians are under assault where our speech and freedom of expresasion are concerned
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:58PM EDT (link)and maybe I’m being hyperbolic in saying Mitch made himself my enemy with his statement about ignoring social issues so we can focus on fiscal…but this is a very personal issue for me…and I take it personally when I’m told to take a seat at the back of the bus.
We’re back in the Christmas season now and the assaults on our values and the things we care most about are hitting us daily….Mitch opened himself up for a healthy dose of skepticism by opening his pie hole the way he did and he mad a bad first impression on me when he did so…
I believe in redemption…or I wouldn’t be a Christian…and maybe he can redeem himself…but if he’s going to run for President…and hopes to put my…and many other Christians doubts to bed…he’s got a long row to hoe.
And that’s before we open the tax increase and class warfare concerns can of worms I discuss below
I agree that all candidates deserve skepticism
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:10PM EDT (link)I further agree that Daniel’s has said things that merit additional scrutiny and skepticism.
I just want to as a rule to inhibit hyperbolic statements about people who are on the same side. Its going to be a painful primary for 2012. Lots of blood and guts will be flying. Words like “enemy” should be used selectively. Frankly, I don’t use that word even in the context of our political opponents like Obama. Enemies are people you kill or imprison.
I totally understand where you are coming from, and appreciate your assessment. Just trying to keep the rhetoric away from hyperbolic statements to the degree that it is possible to do so.
P.S. I think you have had the best signature tag on Red State.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
10-4
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 3:00PM EDT (link)maybe so...but demanding 2/3s of the Republican Party sit down and shut up....and calling for tax increases in this economy is a big deal
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:22AM EDT (link)and I’ll add…his first instinct upon assuming the governorship was to push for a tax increase….that’s 2 strikes on the FisCon front and 1 strike on the SoCon front….for a total of three.
I’d back him over Romney…and maybe Pawlenty….but that’s about it for me
You must want an accountant, not a President.
Tbone (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 8:01PM EDT (link)Mitch Daniels probably puts himself to sleep shaving. News Flash: You and he have exactly the same chance of being elected President.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
I don't care what he does in the privacy of his own bathroom...
acat (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:11AM EDT (link)Indiana is a success story – and if this boring numbers guy can make it happen, I’ll support him.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
The US economy could definitely use some boredom
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:14AM EDT (link)all of this excitement is for the birds
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
unless Mitch dreamed up the "truce" on social issues idea while on the toilet, in which case
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:30AM EDT (link)he should have flushed it instead of flushing away my support for his Presidential run!
Great governor. Hope he stays in that job!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Yes ski', and I prefer the boredom of a truce on truces that surrender great issues to the Left. I would love to be bored by a Silent Cal-type
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:35AM EDT (link)that appointed Borks to Courts and let the Constitution do the talking, rather than the Breyers and Anthony Kennedys of the world. I would love the boredom of charts that show how supply side tax rate cuts raise revenue as opposed to exciting tax hikes that accept the static premises of the Keynesian left.
Finally, I would love the boredom of the USC Gamecocks winning the SEC East for the next 5 years!
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Amen Brutha....Amen...and Amen
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:01PM EDT (link)Except Americans won't vote for Boring...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:36AM EDT (link)example?
McCain, Dole, Ford, GHW Bush (Who won against an even more boring Dukakis and lost to Mr Excitement Slick Willy). Let’s look at the Dems….The fore mentioned Dukakis, Mondale, McGovern, Kerry, Carter, (Was elected much like Obama because of Media hype and hysteria against the epitome of boring Ford, only to lose to the most exciting, entertaining and masterful communicator to ever occupy the White House).
All my other objections to him aside…Mitch Daniels woulf fit quite nicely into that crowd of boring policy wonks with the personality of dead fish!
Oh...I left out Al Bore in my list of BORING nominees...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 3:06PM EDT (link)he’s so boring I forgot all about him…hah
Didn't Like Daniels 1% Tax Hike Proposal
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:08AM EDT (link)I saw the segment on Daniels on the 12 in 2012 series on Special Report. Overall I like Daniels, but the one thing that really stood out to me was during his first term as gov. he proposed a 1% tax hike on incomes over $200,000 I believe.
The proposal was defeated by the GOP legislature.
Makes me wonder how Daniels would react to soaking the rich but extending middle class tax cuts class warfare games.
Isn't Daniels also in favor
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:35AM EDT (link)of the VAT tax?
So is Paul Ryan
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 4:46PM EDT (link)and his Roadmap specifically calls for a VAT tax. The idea of a VAT (a highly efficient tax) picking up the slack for cuts in the income tax is a perfectly valid one (though I think it’s the wrong course of action in a depression).
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
and Palin endorsed the Ryan Roadmap
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 5:46PM EDT (link)So she cannot be said to be vehemently opposed to a VAT.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Palin qualified her support for the Roadmap
Greg Garrison (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:30PM EDT (link)“Is Rep. Ryan’s Roadmap perfect? Of course not—no government plan ever is. But it’s the best plan on the table at a time when doing nothing is no longer an option.”
She highlights her support for replacing corporate income tax with a business consumption tax but does not address a VAT specifically, so she left herself room to back off on it if she cares to later.
http://www.thejoyofreason.com
“The art of compromise, which is central to a successful democracy, is not something that people learn overnight.” – Donald Rumsfeld
I wasn't attempting to bind her to each provision in the Roadmap
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:50PM EDT (link)still, she has endorsed the overall approach of the Roadmap. If the VAT was some unspeakable attrocity, she would either not have endorsed the Roadmap or specifically identified it as a problem.
My point is that being in favor of replacing some income tax revenues with a VAT should not be a disqualifier for becoming President of the US.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Totally agree, JS. nt
Greg Garrison (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:56PM EDT (link)http://www.thejoyofreason.com
“The art of compromise, which is central to a successful democracy, is not something that people learn overnight.” – Donald Rumsfeld
I wasn't attempting to bind her to each provision in the Roadmap
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:50PM EDT (link)still, she has endorsed the overall approach of the Roadmap. If the VAT was some unspeakable attrocity, she would either not have endorsed the Roadmap or specifically identified it as a problem.
My point is that being in favor of replacing some income tax revenues with a VAT should not be a disqualifier for becoming President of the US.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I'd support a VAT as an ALTERNATIVE to the income tax only
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:36PM EDT (link)if it means setting it up to “take up slack” for income tax cuts borders on idiocy IMHO because that slack in income taxes will be reinstated later leaving us with the full blown income tax and the VAT on top of it.
Not sure if that would even be an option
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:23PM EDT (link)as I have never seen the government give up a form a revenue. They usually state they will transition to the new tax or it will be temporary, but that never quite works out.
Some of the taxes that were supposed to be temporary off the top of my head were:
The cigarette tax, The California earthquake tax, the Johnstown Emergency Flood tax, and so on. You even have the so called three year tax that Gov “I am the biggest joke in politics ever” Patterson signed back in 2009 to raise 4 billion and was supposed to have ended called the temporary high earner personal income tax. They just do not let revenue go no matter what they say they will do. If they use the claim that “let us bring in the VAT and we will end income tax” crap, they will simply keep pushing off the end date until most have forgotten or given up.
Another issue I have with the VAT is how much will it cost us and how often will it be raised. And how much will it cost us at the register. Take a dollar pack of gum that costs us a buck plus applicable tax, now add in the VAT and the company passes on taxes assigned to the gum from the start to the end on every process in the purchase of part for the gum and the manufacturing of the gum. We go to purchase it and now the same gum is $1.50 plus applicable tax. Most of us could not afford a 50% raise in our cost even if they eliminated all income tax. Now keep income tax as I am sure they will and add in 25 to 50% increase in all we purchase, and every single person in this country will see their way of life greatly diminished.
The reality is, screw them and their way of charging more taxes to us. Enough is enough. Most of us work till May just to pay taxes. They have enough, they need to quit spending so much. I would not agree to any new taxes until they have cut spending to the bone and that will never happen.
let's not forget the gas tax to "Build" the interstate system
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:52PM EDT (link)now it’s there to maintain it…
I don’t remember the country…I’m thinking it was the UK….in the 70s or 80s where they past the VAT with a promise to end the income tax….they now pay both…and always will
I don't think that's necessarily true
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:59PM EDT (link)It depends on how the argument on entitlements goes. New Zealand, Chile, and several other free-market countries derive significant portions of their income from their VAT, and it hasn’t impacted their deregulation, lower government spending, and generally pro-investment policies (in NZ’s case, it was part of a successful deal to get lower government spending and regulation).
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
My problem here is with the idea of cutting taxes and offsetting them with a VAT....
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:54PM EDT (link)If that were done…and the ikncome tax were left in place…you know the income taxes would creep back up and we’d be back paying the same level of income tax….and have a healthy and robust VAT to boot….
of course…you could trust the politicians to not raise income taxes back to current levels…but if you do…please book a trip to Texas….I’ve got some prime ocean front property in San Antonio I’d like to show you…”
heh
Both Chile and NZ
aesthete (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:56AM EDT (link)Have the income tax and a VAT, and both are still very fiscally conservative. I understand your concerns (I certainly agree with your take on pols!), but the surefire way to prevent tax increases is to prevent and roll back spending increases (which the Roadmap does).
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
But How Does It Impact Their Citizens?
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:56PM EDT (link)And how much of their paycheck they get to keep?
I can’t stand the argument that we need to pay for the tax cuts. This is what’s being forced down our throats from the left.
The truth is that tax cuts lead to more revenue for the govt. When people keep more on their money they can create more jobs… ie more taxpayers, etc.
Dodging my question, I see.
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:03AM EDT (link)They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
I Refuse to Talk To You Anymore Until You Apologize
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 8:33AM EDT (link)For insulting me in the first place. Classless and unwarranted, kind of like chasing me around in this thread.
AHH such a loss for Gekster
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 8:52AM EDT (link)what will he do without your wishy washy scared to commit principles……
Is It Too Much To Ask
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 8:58AM EDT (link)To speak to each other with civilitiy and respect on here?
Is it right to insult someone’s intelligence just for disagreeing with you?
I did not insult
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 4:56PM EDT (link)your intelligence as I do not know you and you seem to be able to put down the right words in order to complete a sentence.
What I called you is a coward with no human compassion who straddles the abortion fence so that he can take whatever side he needs to and take whatever side is the easiest and takes no courage, and who is sub human based on upon your own claim of what makes one human enough to deserve to not be killed. In my own home, I said much more about your character, but that is beside the point.
But attack your intelligence, not I!~
So basicly, you wont answer the question.
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 9:05AM EDT (link)And I will apologize for people like you are all pricipled until it is thier but in the doctors hands.
So I can take it abortion is OK unless it is your mom pregnate with you being asking to get one.
Oh how the liberal mind works.
And “I” did answer your question.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Hey Buddy:
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 3:14PM EDT (link)Yes it would be ok for my mom to abort me had she been raped or a victim of incest.
Happy now? That’s exactly what I’ve been arguing for all along. Now get off your high horse.
It has nothing to do with answering your question, the issue has been your classless behavior.
OK. I'll get off my high horse.
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 3:20PM EDT (link)Your superior intellect has gotten the best of me.
Since I’m classless, I’ll go to class now.
Oops, snow day.
Wait till tomorrow.
The school marm. Miss Pritchard will surely put me in my place.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
I have always said
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 11:24PM EDT (link)since abortion has been legal, we have aborted all the wrong ones. Had the right moms been the one aborting, we could have rid ourselves of all the pro murder and the ones who are too cowardly to admit they are pro murder and we could have made it illegal by now.
And by the way, either you are a soulless person, a person who has accomplished so little in life you see no reason for you not to have been aborted, or a pathetic liar willing to say anything to give credence to their argument. You chose………………
I've allways said, mostly in jest,
gekster (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 11:36PM EDT (link)that abortion should be retroactive for anyone who is for abortion.
If a person is for abortion, then we should ask thier parents, either one,
if they want to abort the child who is for abortion.
In this case, I think he just placated me just to get me off his back.
I wonder what would his Mother would say.
On a side note:
There was one person here who said it would be allright if his Mother had aborted him.
He stood by his principles.
He gained my respect for clinging to his stand.
He no longer posts here.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
Both Are you are pieces of garbage
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Tuesday, December 14th at 8:59AM EDT (link)Gekster and powertothepeople are both weak and unable to debate without resorting to pathetic name-calling. Like a couple of little kids who pout and stomp when they don’t get their way.
You wish I was aborted? Just goes to show how both of you have lost the argument. Someone has the nerve to disagree and both of you need to sink so low. Seems like you both have alot more in common with Maobama than you think. Like him, neither of you can handle someone expressing an opinion different than your own.
Neither of you are ever worth talking to ever again about any subject.
Good riddance
Ahh
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Tuesday, December 14th at 9:10AM EDT (link)is the little boy going to take his ball home and cry to mommy?
Didn't Like Daniels 1% Tax Hike Proposal
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:08AM EDT (link)I saw the segment on Daniels on the 12 in 2012 series on Special Report. Overall I like Daniels, but the one thing that really stood out to me was during his first term as gov. he proposed a 1% tax hike on incomes over $200,000 I believe.
The proposal was defeated by the GOP legislature.
Makes me wonder how Daniels would react to soaking the rich but extending middle class tax cuts class warfare games.
That's a point.. but he did fine without it...
acat (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:19AM EDT (link)I’d say the legislature made the right call .. just made Daniels get rid of some more government.
I’m sure Daniels isn’t a ficon at heart… but as long as he knows how to play one in office …
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
But he doesn't seem to know how to play one is the point...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:43AM EDT (link)because he supported the tax out of the gates…and his first comments on the national stage…after pissing of the 2/3s of the party represented by SoCons was to call for tax increases to balance the budget….
That points to instinct and proclivity….to top it off…in my above comments…I forgot to mention the class warfare aspect of his first action as Governor….
Any Republican President in all likelihood will have to deal with a Democrat Congress at some point in their tenure…especially if they are a two term President….The last thing I want to see as a Republican ever again would be a compromiser like Romney or an ex governor who’s first instinct is to raise taxes on the Rich
I agree that Daniel's is less and less desirable as a Presidential nominee in 2012
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:56AM EDT (link)He is a weird and unusual example of someone’s actual record being better than what he says. The guy is great on health care, but in a Presidential run we need a pro-growth messenger, not a green eyeshades messenger.
Frankly, I hope he would become the Secretary for HHS in a Republican administration.
There is no Republican governor better suited to implement conservative policies in the realm of healthcare than Daniels.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I think his success has a lot to do wityh the Republican Legislature
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:05PM EDT (link)that stomped on his class warfare proclivities and strangled that baby in the crib…if he’d have had a Dem legislature…the taxpayers of that state would have seen taxes go up…along with spending in all likelihood and Daniels wouldn’t even be on anyone’s RADAR
I think those are fair comments
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:15PM EDT (link)Its easier being a good governor in a red state with a red legislature than a blue state with a blue legislator.
I think Daniels wouldn’t be on anyone’s radar but for health care. Daniels is the person best suited to take on Obamacare. While that is an important issue, it is not the only issue.
Even the government unions in Indiana praise his transition to HSAs. The satisfaction and cost data speak for themselves. Daniels also understands medicare and medicaid as well as anyone. Ryan, a close competitor in that area of expertise, has only good things to say about Daniels.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Hadn't considered his HC credentials...which is a positive to be sure...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:58PM EDT (link)but his negatives out way this if I’m considering him for POTUS.
I think I agree with you on HHS assuming he can get his policies implemented in law from that post…
They're fair comments
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 5:18PM EDT (link)Even so, can you name a governor with as good a track record as Daniels’, even if you include states like Texas? Perry’s rhetoric is great, but he’s done precisely jack and squat to cut government or the rate of government growth in Texas, and has done very little in office besides what has been recommended by the legislature (which will be the sort of President we’ll need when we get the federal government to an appropriate scope, and which seems to work out fine in states that have already learned the lessons of small government, like Texas). Daniels’ rhetoric is fine: interviews like this one are virtually indistinguishable from one that would be fielded by, say, Thomas Sowell, and are par for the course for Daniels. As someone who simply doesn’t have anyone but politicos focusing on him right now, it is natural that Daniels’ good rhetoric tends to get ignored, while his mis-statements get reported more often (something that Daniels shares in common with other pols such as Palin).
I don’t think he’s perfect (in particular, I’m wary of his as-of-yet vague foreign policy), and anyone putting their trust in pols is going to be disappointed. That said, most of the attacks on the man’s character, conservatism, and record in the past few months have been based on two or fewer statements that were not necessarily inappropriate, and whose uncharitable explanations would require one to discount a lifetime of rhetoric and action to the contrary (both public and private) that preceded the statement. (@ Ace: here’s an interview from a year before the statement where he discusses his views and faith that you might be interested in: you’d be hard-pressed to find a significant difference between it and other statements made by social conservative.)
It is imperative that we elect a President who has the record and intention of cutting government spending, and who has already steeled himself for the slings and arrows of DC. That person might be Daniels, Barbour, or someone else, but let’s not discount any of those persons for one mis-statement or mis-step as governor: at the risk of sounding melodramatic, our nation’s fate is too important for us to use sensationalistic snippets as a disqualifier.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
CATO rated at least 4 governors higher than Daniels
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 5:44PM EDT (link)I agree with you that the “truce” comment is over blown and over interpretted. He didn’t tell anyone to shut up, sit at the back of the bus, or any such other statement.
At this point, I am just trying to get people to walk back extreme statements on the matter. I think the best possible nominee will be someone with a proven track record in cutting spending who can also articulate an optimistic pro-growth message (a la Reagan, Kemp, Kasich, et al).
I am not seeing a lot of people out there talk about growth in a credible way. Ryan is an exception. If Ryan was a governor, he would be my first choice.
I would like to hear Daniels articulate a bit more how DC has a spending problem and a little less about income tax surcharges on the rich. I am all for switching to a broader tax framework, lower rates, more people paying taxes, etc. If a VAT is used as a substitute for income tax revenue, I have no problems with that. However, as a political reality, not sure that it can stick. Remember, Reagan flattened rates in 1986, and that simplification has been largely undone.
Playing amateur psychologist, I think Daniels is sabotaging himself and that he is doing so somewhat consciously. I think he would rather not run, and is saying some things to help that reluctance along. After the Fred 2008 campaign, there are limits to reluctant campaigns.
Daniels still has the absolute best record on health care reform. He could demolish Obama in a debate on health care. 70% of the public employee unions in Indiana are happy with the changes Daniels has made.
Basically, my favorite candidate would be an odd fusion of Daniels, Ryan, and Palin.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
in 2006, CATO graded Daniels as a "D"
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 5:51PM EDT (link)http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa581/reportcard_table.html
There are good reasons to suspect that if push came to shove, Daniels would pull a GHWBush and raise taxes as part of a deal that was also supposed to cut spending. Of course, spending cuts in DC never actually arrive.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I like CATO and its ratings
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:04PM EDT (link)IMO, their Gov rankings are a good starting point, but I’m not sure what their methodology is (and quite frankly, there are enough head-scratchers in the list, like Jesse Ventura, to make it suspect). To quote from their report: “As governor, Daniels has been better able to keep a rein on spending. He has proposed, and the legislature has passed, general fund budgets that have grown by not much more than population plus inflation during his first two years in office. Where Daniels’s grade is abysmal is on tax policy. Upon taking office, he proposed an income tax surcharge on taxpayers earning more than $100,000 and a freeze of the property tax relief program, which combined would have amounted to a tax increase of more than $400 million that year. The Republicans in the legislature instead sent Daniels a budget that didn’t include the income tax increase, although they eventually agreed to the property tax relief cap. The next year, Daniels proposed a hike in the cigarette tax mainly as a means, he said, to discourage teen smoking.”
Again, I don’t mind him getting criticized for his early tax policy, which was somewhat poor (which he acknowledged and more than made up for with his excellent tax policy later on in his term). I will also note that he was at the very least getting slammed for doing the two most unpopular things a pol can do: raise taxes and cut spending (which means he probably isn’t lacking in at least some political courage). I’m just not a fan of non-substantive critiques (for the record, I think that slams on Palin’s “intelligence” or media savvy belong in the same category).
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Agree with all of those caveats, but I raise the CATO
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:57PM EDT (link)rating basically to make the point that on the green eye shade (think John McCain) side of the continuoum to the pro-growth (think Jack Kemp), Daniels is closer to the green eye shade side than any candidate in the past that I have ever gotten really excited about.
I think Daniels is a proven achiever in health care and in taking on public unions. I think he is wobbly when it comes to tax increases, and I think that tax proposals are what CATO dinged him on. CATO since raised his grade to a B in a year when only 4 got As. But I agree that CATO doesn’t appear to give much weight to the things that Daniels has done well.
Any President not specifically and affirmatively grounded in a belief that tax increases are off the table, is likely to put tax increases on the table. I don’t think that dynamic works well in Washington, but then again, Reagan raised taxes as part of compromises to achieve his ends.
I am definitely not disqualifying Daniels or anybody else. There are things about Daniels that I find very exciting.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Agree with all of those caveats, but I raise the CATO
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:57PM EDT (link)rating basically to make the point that on the green eye shade (think John McCain) side of the continuoum to the pro-growth (think Jack Kemp), Daniels is closer to the green eye shade side than any candidate in the past that I have ever gotten really excited about.
I think Daniels is a proven achiever in health care and in taking on public unions. I think he is wobbly when it comes to tax increases, and I think that tax proposals are what CATO dinged him on. CATO since raised his grade to a B in a year when only 4 got As. But I agree that CATO doesn’t appear to give much weight to the things that Daniels has done well.
Any President not specifically and affirmatively grounded in a belief that tax increases are off the table, is likely to put tax increases on the table. I don’t think that dynamic works well in Washington, but then again, Reagan raised taxes as part of compromises to achieve his ends.
I am definitely not disqualifying Daniels or anybody else. There are things about Daniels that I find very exciting.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
In 2010 Cato dings Daniels on spending
pilgrim (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:05PM EDT (link)On spending, Daniels constrained the general fund budget to a 10 percent increase between FY05 and FY09, but spending has not fallen since then as it has in many other states. The governor has made some pro-market spending reforms—such as leasing the Indiana Toll Road to a private firm—but he
also has a soft spot for certain areas of state spending, such as education.
I suppose
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:22PM EDT (link)(Though I wouldn’t really call McCain quite a green eyeshade type in practice.) The first half of my reply to Ace below pretty much applies here, and I think that that’s a legitimate point against Daniels. To some extent, it depends on whether one thinks that growth can outpace the budget problems we’ve gotten ourselves into without extensive change. I do not believe that that is the case, and IMO, we’re starting to reach diminishing marginal returns of pro-growth policy. I like that Daniels has already supported Ryan’s excellent Roadmap, which balances these two concerns (and respect that Palin has done the same).
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Agree that entitlements will make pro-growth policies impossible
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:26PM EDT (link)My criticism is as much style as it is substance. Its easier to be the happy warrior when you focus on a pro-growth theme. I wish Daniels had better political skills.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
2010 Cato is high on Jindal
pilgrim (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:16PM EDT (link)http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/PA668.pdf
•Bobby Jindal of Louisiana has a solid
record on both his tax and his spending
policies. In 2008, Jindal repealed previous
income tax increases to save Louisiana
residents more than $350 million a year.
He has also provided some modest business tax cuts and opposed efforts to raise taxes. Jindal has consistently proposed
reductions in the state budget, with the
result that proposed spending in fiscal
year 2011 is expected to be 17 percent
lower than spending his first year in
office, FY08.
I'll return to what I said...it goes to instinct...you can stack daniels up to whomever you want...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:56PM EDT (link)his first instinct was to call for a class warfare tax hike on high earners when he took office….you can’t say that of Perry…or many others under discussion here…
This is about more than mis-statements…you can take him at his word that he thinks taxes should increase to deal with the deficit because it’s the very first thing he tried to do as Gov. Actions speak louder than words on this…..
As for his faith…I’m not putting myself in a place where I’d attempt to judge him on it because his standing with the Lord is between him and the Lord….he may be an outstanding Christian…and he may be perfectly in line with my beliefs on social issues…Where we part ways is on whether we should remain silent and accept a continuation of 1.5 million slaughtered children every year so we can balance the budget!
Where we part ways on that statement is at the point when I’m told to go to the back of the bus so he can paint himself as a “Reasonable” Republican who has his priorities where they should be putting icky social issues in the closet where they belong.
As for your last:
Was his first act as governor to be raising taxes as a concession to Democrats who controlled the legislature in return from some concession from them on a more important issue…I’d be less skeptical…but the fact that a Republican Governor had to be slapped down by a Republican Legislature because his first instinct was to raise taxes on the “Rich” requires an entirely different level of scrutiny than I would put Perry or Barbour, Palin…or even Huckabee under because he went to a tax increase first without being forced to it..
God knows what he’d give up at the drop of a hat if her were faced with a Democrat House and Senate with a modicum of power!
.
.
I agree with concerns on taxation
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:57PM EDT (link)OTOH, I also think that Milton Friedman’s axiom that an unfunded tax cut is merely taxation deferred is one too often ignored by conservatives. I like “pro-growth” policies as much as anyone, but there are very real limitations that are often ignored: anyone else remember how tax cuts were supposed to let us have our cake and eat it, too? I say this not to disparage tax cuts, but to emphasize the need for spending cuts above all: tax cuts are popular and relatively easy to get, so I worry less about them than about spending cuts (which are harder to get). Under a hypothetical Daniels administration where spending is cut and taxes go up, cutting taxes will be easier than would cutting spending in the case that Generic Republican 44 defers spending cuts and gets us only tax cuts (which is a very real possibility, unfortunately). Personally, I think that House Republicans could hold him to not raising taxes (raising taxes =/= popular). To reference JSob’s remark above, though I vastly prefer the Jack Kemp-like pro-growth policies, in practice, a Republican green eyeshade type bound by a pro-growth Congress would result in lower spending *and* lower taxes than a Congress that quickly ditches lower spending in exchange for dubious “pro-growth” policy (essentially the policy in place during the Bush years).
Again, your interpretation of Daniels’ statement would require you to eschew his *actual* pro-life record (i.e., every pro-life bill that went across his desk got his signature). He’s *not* asking you go to the back of the bus, he’s asking you to leave James Dobson and for libertarians to leave Ron Paul behind when we are explicitly attempting to build broad consensus on fiscal issues. (Sorry Jim DeMint, but fiscal conservatism is not exclusively the province of social conservatism, particularly among voters in the West.)
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Put his truce comm ents aside for the moment...I can give him the benefit of the doubt...What of his instincts?
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:24PM EDT (link)What of his tax the rich class warfare instincts?
All I can say is…thank goodness there are other Republicans to choose from…if it comes down to a choice between Daniels and Romney, Pawlenty, McCain, or someone of their ilk…I’ll do with Daniels….but anyone else on the list above get’s my vote above him
His first act as governor was an executive order banning public employee unions
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:32PM EDT (link)He was Christie before there was a Christie.
His instincts on health care are pretty darn good as well. 70% of the public employees (those union folks that he took on with an executive order on Day 1)—they like the changes he made to healthcare.
I don’t think Daniel’s has a “tax the rich” instinct. I think he is willing to make a deal on certain things, and he has proven to be a better negotiator than most.
The guy is serious, and he is willing to take unpopular positions.
If R’s end up nominating someone who promises us a free lunch, we will deserve what we get.
If repealing Obamacare is your first priority (it is my first domestic priority for certain), then you can’t ignore Daniels. Who else on your list has actually implemented conservative health care reform?
Daniels can run on expanding his results from Indiana. That will do a lot in a complex debate in which people don’t understand that market solutions can actually bring down costs.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Psst
Neil Stevens (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:34PM EDT (link)There’s a reason those positions are unpopular AMONG REPUBLICANS. They are WRONG.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
I am not arguing in favor of any increased taxes
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:45PM EDT (link)However, history is filled with people who made the easy tax argument during the election and ended up doing the exact opposite.
So, in evaluating candidates, I relying primarily on what the candidate says is not a good metric for evaluating their probably behavior.
If someone could reform entitlements and successfully balance the budget with a 1% surcharge on the rich, that would be a successful policy. Reagan raised taxes a couple of times as well. Not his first choice, but he did so nonetheless.
Was Reagan wrong when he raised taxes? Or was he simply being an adult about the situation?
Anyone who raises any kind of taxes better negotiate a good deal (I would argue that Reagan negotiated well).
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Look...I know I sound like a broken record here...but this goes to ACTIONS....not statements
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:52PM EDT (link)Daniels…ALL ON HIS OWN…proposed a surtax on millionaires….it wasn’t part of a compromise with Democrats who were holding something up more important…is first instinct on the budget was to play the populist tax the rich card…if that’s not an issue for you..fine…but don’t act like it was a mis-statement when he proposed the tax increase and submitted it to the legislature as one of the first acts as Governor….THEN….he make the comment a couple weeks ago that we HAVE to raise taxes to balance the budget….
I’ll take him at his word…since he’s proven by his actions that he will propose tax increases as a matter if principle…
Not the way to end a recession
Keep that argument in mind Ace when
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:03PM EDT (link)the Palin theobots (note, small “t”) talk about how “conservative” she is after attaching a huge tax to oil production in Alaska.
Or the Huckbots, for that matter nt
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:00PM EDT (link)“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
I don't think we were discussing Huck either...nt
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:57PM EDT (link)I'm sorry...were we discussing Palin?
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:56PM EDT (link)uhh…nope
No, but we will be.
mbecker908 (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:03AM EDT (link)And we’ll be discussing Huck too. And tax increases in their states will be an issue. Just an upfront reminder
.
Bottom line, EVERY candidate – with the possible exception of the Dead White Cat – is going to have warts. Some folks (not you) aren’t willing to deal with that.
Agreed....but to resound my theme...context is everything
AceInTX (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:11AM EDT (link)Daniels didn’t have Dems to contend with,…he proposed them right out of the gates with no coercion….
actually…now that I think of it…I might even back Romney and Pawlenty over Daniels given the context….and you already know I’ll take Huck over Romney
Hopefully we’ll settle on a consensus candidate before that horrible choice is foisted on us this time…because I don’t want any of the above!
I don't want to branch out into other subjects
aesthete (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:47AM EDT (link)because I think that the discussion of taxes and a potential candidate’s stance on them is an important one, taxes being one of the few ways that government universally imposes its will on the populace. I would, however, like to point out that neither Palin nor Huckabee are with clean hands on the issue of unprompted tax increases: Palin ran on punitively taxing and redistributing the assets of oil corps to people who had nothing to do with production (or who had been compensated privately for their role in oil production). Huckabee campaigned for several taxes on the ballot that had nothing to do with the legislature, including one that raised the sales tax to pay for state parks.
I mention this not to excuse Daniels — all three pols made horrible decisions by their citizens in pursuing taxation first — or to accuse you of hypocrisy, but to point out that the fact that you rank both pols higher than Daniels indicates that you yourself do not hold unprompted taxation as the unpardonable sin. That’s perfectly reasonable, and indicates that perhaps something besides Daniels’ mis-step on taxes early in his governorship might merit continued conservative support (perhaps as President, perhaps not), rather than bellicose disbelief at how conservatives can support such a man, etc.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
you have a point...though a slight one...and you ignore the central point I'm making
AceInTX (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 6:59AM EDT (link)actually there are two that makes it more of a worry for me
First is the tax the “Rich” class warfare nature of his move as Gov as one of his first actions.
Palin’s tax on oil companies could be just as egregious….though Alaska is a special case in that oil revenues play a central and unique roll in AK….I still don’t get the fact that everyone up there gets a royalty check from the Government up there.
Second is the fact that it is amongst the first acts he performed as Gov.
Third is…he openly says he’d go to tax increases as POTUS before he’s even a candidate….even if it were a necessary evil to balance the budget now…saying so is a problem in my mind because you have Democrats to deal with…and if you start budget negotiations with them having already put a tax cut on the table….you just took any opportunity to use a potential tax increase as a way to extract concessions from them off the table.
Finally…to raise taxes in this economic environment is idiocy…and anyone who openly says the would do so disqualifies themselves in my mind…instead of fighting to keep taxes at the same level as they are now with the bush tax cuts expiring..we should be talking about further tax cuts to stimulate growth and increase revenues to the government.
Who in your assessment has a better record in terms of cutting spending?
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:04PM EDT (link)That is an important action in my view.
I don’t see any perfect candidates on the horizon. I have to admit that cutting spending and repealing Obamacare are probably my top two domestic priorities. Track record isn’t everything, but it is something important.
In other words, its not just the actions of Daniels that you need to consider, but the actual actions of other potential candidates.
I am certainly not wedded to any candidate, and I do think the propensity to increase taxes is a big issue in considering a Daniels candidacy.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Bobby Jindal nt
pilgrim (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:07PM EDT (link)I think that's right, but its hard to compare records
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:10PM EDT (link)when someone is only in office for a short time.
I am a big Jindal fan. I also think he will not cause a fiscal/socon fissure.
Is Jindal going to run in 2012?
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I think that's right, but its hard to compare records
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:10PM EDT (link)when someone is only in office for a short time.
I am a big Jindal fan. I also think he will not cause a fiscal/socon fissure.
Is Jindal going to run in 2012?
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I don't know if he'll run
pilgrim (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:25PM EDT (link)I was replying based on the 2010 CATO Governor report that had this
17% less spending is a big cut.
Yes... for VP
roguebeaver Sunday, December 12th at 10:34PM EDT (link)He has categorically ruled himself out for 2012, with good reason: he has to run for reelection in 2011. He will win 65-70% of the vote against a no-name opponent, but the real objective is to get 2 full terms under his belt, By 2016, if we don’t win in 12, he will run and be the 45th POTUS… at the age of 45, ironically.
However in recent interviews, apart from being one of Obama’s most intelligent critics, he has been very open to accepting the VP nomination. Regardless of who is nominated he would be the perfect choice.
“No man and no class of men ever rise to any permanent improvement in their condition of body or of mind except by relying upon their own personal efforts.”
- Lord Salisbury
I'd love to see Jindal as a future US President nt
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:08PM EDT (link)“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
raising taxes in this economy is insanity...and it's what he says we should do...are we really arguing this point?
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:30PM EDT (link)I mean…I can see you guys supporting him by saying he won’t raise taxes…I just can’t believe I’m hearing you all saying repealing Obamacare is what’s important and I don’t care if he raises taxes…
and some of you seem to be saying…”Yeah…he might raise taxes as a REPUBLICAN POTUS….So What?”
Are you serious?
I have repeatedly said that I am NOT in favor of raising taxes
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:46PM EDT (link)I have said that if we don’t get an actual cut in spending, tax increases will be inevitable.
I have also pointed out that Reagan passed a couple of tax increases when the 1982 recession was going on.
I have also asserted that a lot of people who are saying the won’t increase taxes have records that are . .. shall we say . . . inconsistent with what they say.
I have said that I could accept a tax increase such as the one proposed by Daniels if it was part of massive cutting of spending that got the budget in line.
I don’t see a perfect candidate out there, so comparing Daniels to the perfect candidate is going to leave Daniels wanting. There are precious few out there who have proven that they can cut spending.
I fear that we will nominate someone who is great at talking about cutting spending, but will be somewhat lacking in the action. If we don’t cut spending, the goose will be cooked.
If Reagan was capable of being strong armed into increasing taxes, all of the Reagan pretenders out there (and there are many) will be no stronger.
The question is not whether Daniels is optimal–he surely isn’t. The better question is, who is better? There are some, but its a small handfull, and everyone has their problems.
I am a big fan of Reagan. I have two autographed pictures of Reagan in my office. I hate to point out that Reagan did increases taxes at various times. He was a net tax cutter, but he did raise taxes at times. Some of those times occurred during the 1982 recession.
Just some basic and less than pleasant facts.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
You keep bringing up Reagan...but Reagan didn't start by proposing tax increases...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:05PM EDT (link)he went along with some…to get something else after fighting and negotiating….but Reagan proposed raising taxes….let alone taxing the “RICH”
As for what others have done…when we get into a discussion about what each of them have done or said…we’ll deal with them…but for now…we’re talking about Mitch Daniels and what HE said…and HAS DONE.
I think your point about Reagan being “Strong Armed” into raising taxes is key here…and it’s what I keep coming back to…Daniels did it on his own…without being strong armed …or without any hope of getting anything in return….it’s why I am calling it his first instinct…
Again…I put Daniels ahead of Mr.Fantastic, (Mitt Romney…the incredible elastic man)…Tim Pawlenty, (McCain’s favorite Republican…but that’s about it….
I am not saying that Daniels is equivalent to Reagan--far from it
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:13PM EDT (link)My point is that I am skeptical that any R running in 2012 is going to be immune from being strong armed into raising certain taxes. If Reagan can be strong armed into raising taxes, just about anybody else is capable as well.
The debt side of the equation is going to be horrible in 2013. The most credible way to hold the line on taxes is to get spending under control.
I think we have each said what there is to say. Thanks for not calling me a Walter Mondale acolyte.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I am not saying that Daniels is equivalent to Reagan--far from it
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:13PM EDT (link)My point is that I am skeptical that any R running in 2012 is going to be immune from being strong armed into raising certain taxes. If Reagan can be strong armed into raising taxes, just about anybody else is capable as well.
The debt side of the equation is going to be horrible in 2013. The most credible way to hold the line on taxes is to get spending under control.
I think we have each said what there is to say. Thanks for not calling me a Walter Mondale acolyte.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Who in your assessment has a better record in terms of cutting spending?
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:04PM EDT (link)That is an important action in my view.
I don’t see any perfect candidates on the horizon. I have to admit that cutting spending and repealing Obamacare are probably my top two domestic priorities. Track record isn’t everything, but it is something important.
In other words, its not just the actions of Daniels that you need to consider, but the actual actions of other potential candidates.
I am certainly not wedded to any candidate, and I do think the propensity to increase taxes is a big issue in considering a Daniels candidacy.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Wow you sound like Walter Mondale (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:09PM EDT (link)RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
And no offense, your comment sounds like its grounded in the Mitt Romney
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:19PM EDT (link)segment of the Republican party that is willing to tell people what they want to hear (Romney’s campaign in Michigan was particularly shameful) without having an actual record of doing any of the things that he promises to do in the future.
If we don’t cut spending, tax increases and/or default will be the end result.
Relatively few people have an actual record of cutting spending. Daniels is part of that handful of people.
The number of people who will campaign on tax cuts and spending cuts will be high. Many of them will have little record of actually doing so (see Romney, Huckabee, et al).
Reagan did increase taxes at times. He did so strategically in moving the country in the direction that he wanted. I am against tax increases, but if we don’t cut spending, the issue will become academic in a couple of years.
Saying that I sound like Mondale is a low blow. I am not saying tax increases are inevitable. I am saying that if we don’t cut spending, tax increases are inevitable. I am also saying that while many talk a big game when it comes to spending cuts, few have actually done it.
Maybe I just should go around pontificating how SS is unconstitutional and we should just end entitlements now? I would definitely take less heat for that position. However, what will it accomplish?
This beloved country is on the edge of a cliff. If we don’t elect someone who will actually cut spending and repeal Obamacare, I am not convinced the country can survive in the way that we have always known it.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Again...Daniels STARTS with raising taxes...there is a difference
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:46PM EDT (link)between STARTING with raising taxes and being forced to raise taxes after you’ve negotiated down to raising taxes after extracting concessions…Playing the class warfare crowd is a whole other level of stupid that keeps getting brushed aside here and should NEVER be tolerated in a Republican…ESPECIALLY one runing for the White House
Fact..Daniels as Governor proposed a tax on the rich
Fact…Daniels NOW says we have to raise taxes to balance the budget…
What else needs to be said at this point?
Daniels himself said the attempted tax increases were a bad idea
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:54PM EDT (link)What else needs to be said:
Are other candidates merely thinking what Daniels is saying?
That in my mind is the million dollar question.
How many people running for President in 2012 are willing to talk a tough game about taxes now who will be flexible in fulfilling their promises?
That is the type of question that we should be asking.
Who do you think is capable of cutting spending to a point where tax increases won’t become academic?
How many governors never increased taxes?
My point is, I suspect Daniels is being more open about his thoughts than certain other candidates. At some point, the bond markets will force a tax increase on us if we don’t fix the spending problem.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Again...you can't take the attempted increase in isolation...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:11PM EDT (link)you have to consider it in the context of his recent declaration that we need to raise taxes nationally to balance the budget…
The rest of it has been answered repeatedly…Daniels is the issue here and he has a track record to prove he’ll do what he says….
beyond that…there’s not much point in arguing this further
Stop digging, Jsobieski
Neil Stevens (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:50PM EDT (link)Wow you’re really bad at this. You’ve lost the argument. You’ve so utterly failed to make a case fo Mitch Daniels that you’ve not only set him against Ronald Reagan and with Walter Mondale, but you’ve done the thing that all mindless Presidential bots do, and that’s start attacking random ot her candidates when your arguments have been demolished.
Stop digging.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
I am no Daniels bot, I am merely skeptical about the ability of any candidate to rise to the occassion
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:03PM EDT (link)If you read my earlier comments with Aesthete, you will see that I was not on the pro-Daniels side of the argument.
Are you denying that Reagan raised taxes?
If so, then you are denying the facts. (Note I didn’t say that Reagan raised net taxes).
If you aren’t denying that reality, I ask the question of why Reagan did what he did?
Who in the 2012 field is a proven cutter of spending? Who in that group has been governor for more than a year or two?
I am not picking fights with hypotheticals, I am saying that in 2012 our bench isn’t very good. It could be the best ever in 2016, but by then it will be too late to repeal Obamacare.
I am arguing in good faith. I am no bot. I am no fan of tax increases either.
Paul Ryan has repeatedly said that if we don’t get spending under control, tax increases will become inevitable. I agree with his assessment. You don’t. Thats fine. I don’t go around calling you a bot.
If you want to call Paul Ryan a Mondale-loving failed candidate-bot, go ahead. I have not written anything above that Paul Ryan hasn’t said on a Sunday talk show.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
There is a couple here I can answer...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:19PM EDT (link)Perry has been Gov for 6 years…and he hasn’t raised taxes….and he has held the line on spending….
I’m not sure about Barbour,…I don’t remember when he was elected….but I know he was Governor during Katrina and Rita….which was at least 4 years ago?
Perry has been governor for 10 years
Neil Stevens (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:26PM EDT (link)He took over when Bush was first elected.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
That's what I meant....DOH! Thanks for the correction
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:35PM EDT (link)You’d think I’d know that since I’ve voted for him every time
Perry has raised taxes in Texas, but he is on my short list as well
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:36PM EDT (link)2 percent tax on fireworks
1 percent tax on purchase/rental of diesel equipment to fund the Texas Emissions Reduction Plan Fund
In 2004, Perry proposed increases in cigarette taxes and statewide business property tax, but those were rejected by the legislature.
A franchise tax was raised in 2006.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
now...you just had to go and remind me didn't you...heh nt
AceInTX (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:13AM EDT (link)I will say...the Diesel thing was forced on Texas by the EPA
AceInTX (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:16AM EDT (link)but yeah….Perry7 isn’t perfect…but my point on Daniels stands…HE proposed the Tax Increase when he didn’t have to..and he did it in a class warfare kind of way
Time to call it a night...when I start making simple mistakes like not remembering how many times I voted for my Governor
AceInTX (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:28AM EDT (link)it’s a sure sign I’ve been at it too long…\
He wasn't dealing Jsob...that's my point...he wasn't forced to come up with a tax the "Rich" policy
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:41PM EDT (link)He had a Republican Legislature…HE proposed it on his own…and the legislature told him where he could stick it…
I’ll concede the point the tax increase wasn’t his “first act”…it was one of his first acts…and the fact that it wasn’t a forced compromise but something that he came up with on his own is a big deal no matter how you want to make lite of it.
not exactly, jsob
pilgrim (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:54PM EDT (link)What he did is rescind the executive order of a previous Governor Evan Bayh on collective bargaining contracts with unions. State employees could continue to pay union dues if they wanted to, and a union rep could assist any state employee in the appeal process for being demoted or being fired. Indiana is not a right to work state. The executive decision only effected about 25,000 state workers having a union bargain for wages and work conditions.
So public employees could no longer collectively bargain in Indiana
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:07PM EDT (link)Correction duly noted. My original comment was limited to public employees. I would argue that unions are fine if they can’t collectively bargain, but I stand corrected.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
His first act as governor was an executive order banning public employee unions
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:32PM EDT (link)He was Christie before there was a Christie.
His instincts on health care are pretty darn good as well. 70% of the public employees (those union folks that he took on with an executive order on Day 1)—they like the changes he made to healthcare.
I don’t think Daniel’s has a “tax the rich” instinct. I think he is willing to make a deal on certain things, and he has proven to be a better negotiator than most.
The guy is serious, and he is willing to take unpopular positions.
If R’s end up nominating someone who promises us a free lunch, we will deserve what we get.
If repealing Obamacare is your first priority (it is my first domestic priority for certain), then you can’t ignore Daniels. Who else on your list has actually implemented conservative health care reform?
Daniels can run on expanding his results from Indiana. That will do a lot in a complex debate in which people don’t understand that market solutions can actually bring down costs.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
His other instincts are more important ATM, IMO
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:47PM EDT (link)This is how I see it:
Spending cuts are harder to get than tax cuts, and will be the primary issue on the fiscal front. Both are important, but if you have to put a value on one, I would put it on spending cuts.
Tax cuts are broadly popular relative to spending cuts, and are much easier to achieve. If we get spending cuts, we can get the tax cuts later down the road.
Daniels has already stated his support for Ryan’s Roadmap, which simplifies the tax structure and shifts taxes (an overall tax cut).
There will be strong pressure coming from the right and Republicans to support the Bush tax cuts: heck, even Barack Obama hasn’t dared raise taxes, so I doubt that Daniels would succeed.
There are no such pressures from Republicans, the right, and political reality to bind any generic R President to spending cuts in quite the same way: getting government benefits cut is real work!
There are few currently active politicians with a record of cutting government and the rate of government growth like Daniels. (Barbour comes close, though.) Both are issues that will be facing us in 2012, come what may. There’s none with a better record on healthcare than Daniels. Daniels’ “instincts”, as they are, are inclined towards cutting government spending and getting the government out of the way.
In short, I think that the spending cuts that Daniels would have a higher chance of achieving and implementing are worth the rather small risk of a tax increase, though I can certainly understand one having a different preference regarding taxes v spending.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
The Bush years proved...if it's a Republican proposing bad policy...the Dems..AND the Repubs will back him up
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:58PM EDT (link)The Repubs in the name of party unity…the Dems because they get their tax increases…their runaway spending…and all their wet dreams…at the same time they get a pass for responsibility since it was proposed by a Republican President and passed with Republican votes…
I REALLY don’t want to relive the Bush years again….it still makes me ill
Because it was popular policy
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:12PM EDT (link)Bush certainly didn’t get his way on SS reform (one of the few bright spots of his domestic agenda). Increased spending on benefits and lower taxes are popular: that’s the reason that Dems and Reps went along with Bush’s hike in spending and cut to taxes, not because Bush waved the HypnoToad in Congressmans’ faces
Again, if *Obama* couldn’t increase taxes and didn’t try (despite the fact that he had Dem supermajorities in Congress). What makes you think that an uncharismatic Rep President would be able to?
This is besides the fact that taxes overall in IN have gone down since that unfortunate leap to a tax increase at the beginning of his term.
I totally agree with you that, along with not having developed views on foreign policy, Daniels’ initial instinct to go for higher taxes are his low points. However, it seems to me that spending cuts (and if we’re going the “repeal and replace” route, healthcare) will be big issues on the 2012 scene, are more important than tax cuts at this juncture, and that prevailing political winds will direct Daniels towards not going for tax hikes (if his experiences in IN haven’t taught him better). Again, the preceding sentence is a matter of personal preference on which reasonable people can and do have differing opinions.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
no child left behind was popular? Medicare part B?
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:20PM EDT (link)Really?
If a Republican President proposed raising taxes….I don’t care how charismatic he was…they’d pas…because the Dems would be all in…and you could count on about half the Republican caucuses in the House and Senate would vote for it….
That’s what I believe…but regardless what I believe…what I CAN’t belive is that I am actually being forced to defend the idea that vwe shouldn’t elect a Republican for President who’s first instinct on the budget is to play the class warfare populist and push of a surtax on millionaires
are you serious?
Oh...and ir's not just his initial action that's at issue here
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:23PM EDT (link)He still says that we need to be looking at raising taxes as of a couple weeks ago…
again…I’ll take him at his word…he’ll raise taxes as POTUS….
No Thanks
A progressive income tax
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:58PM EDT (link)is not necessarily wrong: the upper middle class generally benefit and consumes more of the goods provided by government (law enforcement, property rights, etc). Progressive taxation is not necessarily the outcome of envy (and nothing I have read or heard from Daniels, a well-to-do man himself, indicates to me that he has any particular animus against those in a given income bracket). At any rate, I hope we can find a pro- low taxes, pro spending cuts Rep for 2012.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
He proposed raising taxes on one class of people...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:26PM EDT (link)he sounded like a populist Democrat in doing so….He’s among the bottom of the pile of my picks as a result….
Give me a link
aesthete (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:17AM EDT (link)to McCain-like rhetoric from Daniels vis a vis taxes, and I’ll concede the point. Otherwise, I think it’d be more honest to conclude that he is probably not a class warrior, and that he merely believed that raising taxes was a good idea (something that is bad and unfortunate enough in its own right, given that there was spending that could be cut).
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
What do you mean send you a link...the tax increase he proposed was a 1% surtax on millionaires...
AceInTX (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 7:22AM EDT (link)last time a checked that was one class of people
so now you’re going to dispute historical fact and prove what everyone…even his supporters acknowledges is true?
Let me rephrase
aesthete (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 1:40PM EDT (link)as my attempt to explain my position here was clearly unsuccessful. Progressive taxation (charging different income brackets different taxes) is not necessarily based on envy: the rich do tend to receive more of a benefit from government than other classes (law enforcement and enforcement of property rights are more beneficial for those with more property than those with less, though it goes without saying that they are beneficial for both groups). From this, one can derive at least one way in which a moderately progressive taxation scheme can be based on something a bit more rational than class warfare tendencies that manifest themselves on the left (and occassionally on the populist side of the right).
Obviously, I think that there’s a point where taxation of any class is overly punitive (anywhere above 25-30% total except in cases of war seems wrong to me). I am very concerned about the fact that Daniels seems overly eager to tax (and your point has merit in that regard), but I won’t be worried about class warfarist tendencies until I see that Daniels justified progressive taxation using class warfarist rhetoric, or unless I see other policies that clearly have no virtue but to shaft the rich (estate taxes, for instance).
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
OK...I got ya...
AceInTX (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 6:25PM EDT (link)I don’t know if he actually used class warfare rhetoric or not…but his actions in this instance points to his proclivities toward tax increases on the rich….which is the same as making the statements as far as I’m concerned…
Huck?
concap (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 5:18PM EDT (link)The full progressive socialists” have run off the blue dog voters (right of full left put still left). They now call themselves social conservatives.
Huck is popular because he is a social conservative and there are more of those to the right of center now than ever before.
He is right of left, but not right.
The Constitution is neither Right or Left, it is American.
You need neither be Right or Left to vote American.
When you vote on the Federal level based on politics, you are voting for a lobbyist to promote your own personal wants and force them on others through taxation and legislation.
FF/FS/SL/RMIL/OK
Fiscal Federal/Fiscal State/Social Local/Retired Military/Oath Keeper
concap- Your first sentence
Scope (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 7:16PM EDT (link)is offensive to Social Conservatives, as you put them in the same class as the Progressives without question. Looking into your short 1 month membership I find you pretty much saying the same thing with this comment by you, today also-
“Every bit of freedom lost in the last 100yrs was COMPROMISED away by the right and in the last 50yrs by a Conservative.
Just as cold is the absents of heat, so is it, socialism is the absent of Capitalism. Every compromise is a lose of freedom and a gain for socialism.
You can not compromise your way to full capitalism only socialism.
The Tea Party is getting NO respect from the good old boys running the Republican Party.
The U.S. was made great ONLY because of the Constitution and CAPITALISM and NOTHING but.
If all of the politicians’ just disappeared, we would still be in the same boat we are now.
THE PROBLEM IS ECONOMICAL. THE PROBLEM IS OUR MOVEMENT AWAY FROM LAISSEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM TO A SOCIAL CAPITALISTIC MIX. IT’S OIL AND WATER. YOU CAN NOT MIX THE TWO.
The Tea Party (Conservatives’) are still not the full answer. How ever, they are more right of left then most current Conservatives‘.
Politically speaking, there are only three types of people in the US right now, and that’s:
Full Progressive socialists (full left), Part time socialists (social conservatives‘), and Constitutional Capitalist (full right).
I do not spend time trying to convert the left, only the ones just ritht of left. (social conservatives‘)
What is difference in the social in socialist and the social in social concervative?
I don’t fight or argue the point of who’s opinion or position is better.
I just express a point of view, provide some educating links in the hopes that one day they will gravitate more to the Constitution and Capitalism.
I’m a purest in both the Constitution and Capitalism.
I realize things will never be 100% to the right or full freedom within the rule of law.
My short term goal is to be a strong gravitational pull towards Capitalism . Whether you move more to the right, is up to you.
My long term goal is a two party system consisting of Constitutional Capitalists’ on the right and Social Conservatives’ and Blue Dog Dems’ on the left, and all others to the left of them out of the picture.
You need to take a good look at where you are on the political spectrum and determine whether that spot is the answer to the problem, part of the problem or is the problem.
Being right is a result of being for the Constitution and Capitalism. The less you agree with the two, the farther you are to the left.
Ask yourself this. If my children never experience full freedom, how will they know what they have lost, or whether they should fight for it at all?
All comments welcome.
20yr retired Combat Vet.”
_______________________________________
This comment is particularly offensive-
“Every bit of freedom lost in the last 100yrs was COMPROMISED away by the right and in the last 50yrs by a Conservative.”
If you are against the Conservatives, why are you posting at a Website that promotes all Conservative values. Are you an anarchist, or just a loon?
Will you consider... our Winston Churchill?
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 10:29PM EDT (link)Well, you said “all comments welcome”– so you asked for it!
I hope you will take a serious, thoughtful look at the man I believe is the Winston Churchill of our time, to lead us through the blood, toil, tears and sweat that lie ahead of us in the next few years of what will be a long, long, long, long war against the radical Islamists who want to kill every last one of us.
That man is Allen West:
http://westforwestwing2012.com/about/
http://westforwestwing2012.com/great-speeches/
http://westforwestwing2012.com/why-this-blog/
Cain
concap (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:13AM EDT (link)My man is Herman Cain. He is a full Constitutionalist and Capitalist.
I would vote for him
The Constitution is neither Right or Left, it is American.
You need neither be Right or Left to vote American.
When you vote on the Federal level based on politics, you are voting for a lobbyist to promote your own personal wants and force them on others through taxation and legislation.
FF/FS/SL/RMIL/OK
Fiscal Federal/Fiscal State/Social Local/Retired Military/Oath Keeper
Palin/West, Palin/Cain or Cain/West.
Mary Beth (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:40AM EDT (link)Any of those variations would be fine with me…and not for the reasons the left would squeal…although I’d be lying if I didn’t concede that nullifying the race card would of course be helpful.
But just look at those two men. They’re fantastic. I don’t see West leaving Congress to run for President, so I’d be happy with him as a Veep.
I adore Herman Cain but I don’t know if he can pull together what’s necessary for a successful run politically.
So my primary pick would be Palin/West. And I’ll be pushing like heck to help make that happen.
“A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.” ~ Ronald Reagan
He is not running
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:31PM EDT (link)so your constant calls are an exercise in fruition. And if he did run, tell me what he has done to make his prepared to be the executor of this country. His resume includes……………..?
One step closer.
concap (Diary) Wednesday, January 12th at 3:32PM EDT (link)http://www.politicsdaily.com/media/Banner_Matt-Lewis.gif
The Constitution is neither Right or Left, it is American.
You need neither be Right or Left to vote American.
When you vote on the Federal level based on politics, you are voting for a lobbyist to promote your own personal wants and force them on others through taxation and legislation.
FF/FS/SL/RMIL/OK
Fiscal Federal/Fiscal State/Social Local/Retired Military/Oath Keeper
Hi scope
concap (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:07AM EDT (link)Your first sentence is offensive to Social Conservatives, as you put them in the same class as the Progressives without question.
Social Conservative is center right and progressive socialist all most full left.
It is you that are putting them in the same class. Not me.
____________________________________________________________
This comment is particularly offensive-
“Every bit of freedom lost in the last 100yrs was COMPROMISED away by the right and in the last 50yrs by a Conservative.”
I’m sorry, Just who was it, that compromised all the freedoms we have lost in the last 100yrs. Is there a third party I haven’t heard of?
___________________________________________________________
What is your definition of an anarchist?
The Constitution is neither Right or Left, it is American.
You need neither be Right or Left to vote American.
When you vote on the Federal level based on politics, you are voting for a lobbyist to promote your own personal wants and force them on others through taxation and legislation.
FF/FS/SL/RMIL/OK
Fiscal Federal/Fiscal State/Social Local/Retired Military/Oath Keeper
I'm a SoCon and I'm not a socialist or full left at all concap
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:25PM EDT (link)not all…not even most SoCons are socialist or “all left” as you assert and if you want to believe that you are either ignorant, a fool or a troll looking to cause problems if not all the above!
or am I reading what you wrote wrong….I’d like to see some elaboration on this
Hi scope
concap (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:07AM EDT (link)Your first sentence is offensive to Social Conservatives, as you put them in the same class as the Progressives without question.
Social Conservative is center right and progressive socialist all most full left.
It is you that are putting them in the same class. Not me.
____________________________________________________________
This comment is particularly offensive-
“Every bit of freedom lost in the last 100yrs was COMPROMISED away by the right and in the last 50yrs by a Conservative.”
I’m sorry, Just who was it, that compromised all the freedoms we have lost in the last 100yrs. Is there a third party I haven’t heard of?
___________________________________________________________
What is your definition of an anarchist?
The Constitution is neither Right or Left, it is American.
You need neither be Right or Left to vote American.
When you vote on the Federal level based on politics, you are voting for a lobbyist to promote your own personal wants and force them on others through taxation and legislation.
FF/FS/SL/RMIL/OK
Fiscal Federal/Fiscal State/Social Local/Retired Military/Oath Keeper
I'm a SoCon and I'm not a socialist or full left at all concap
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:40PM EDT (link)not all…not even most SoCons are socialist or “all left” as you assert and if you want to believe that you are either ignorant, a fool or a troll looking to cause problems if not all the above!
or am I reading what you wrote wrong….I’d like to see some elaboration on this
1
Thank you Ace- I wondered why concap has escaped the notice of any conservatives with his posts
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:02PM EDT (link)He claims the SoCons are Progressives, and, that it has been the conservatives that are at fault for the loss of all freedoms in the US, for the last 100 years, not just the SoCons. I’m guessing that most have bypassed his sick posts as not something worth replying to, which is a big mistake, if he is not corrected by the Redstaters. If he is against conservatives, he shouldn’t be posting here at all.
I've always taken the position that if you are unwilling to defend your statemement...then don't make them
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:36PM EDT (link)This statement…. (If I read it correctly….his incoherence leaves a little room for doubt)…is asinine on it’s face…I’l be curious to see if he responds…or if he goes off on a crying jag because I called him a fool
heh
Sorry, hard drive crash, back in a week-nt
concap (Diary) Tuesday, December 14th at 7:46PM EDT (link)The Constitution is neither Right or Left, it is American.
You need neither be Right or Left to vote American.
When you vote on the Federal level based on politics, you are voting for a lobbyist to promote your own personal wants and force them on others through taxation and legislation.
FF/FS/SL/RMIL/OK
Fiscal Federal/Fiscal State/Social Local/Retired Military/Oath Keeper
I like some of the people mentioned BUT
melissatx (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 5:29PM EDT (link)in the order I would want to see them run I would prefer:
Pence
Bolton [not Michael]
Santorum
Cantor
Ryan
Pawlenty
Hunter
I would vote for any of them as VP as long as the front runner is strong, but I would add Bachmann as a VP. I like her grit.
For the office of POTUS, it is not just about what we want of a politician. It is also about what the politcian p r o j e c t s to the rest of the world. While I think Bachmann has an impressive record, and has the spine and political will to do what we really want, she will not run for the office. She is better as a leader in the Congress anyway.
Think about it, the only women to run for POTUS are ugly shrews. VP Farraro, Clinton; let’s not put conservative women in that club. I think both Bachmann and Palin are better as people behind the scenes.
But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever. John Adams
ummm....
dforston (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 5:37PM EDT (link)Sexist!!
I Agree With Pence But Not Bolton
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:22AM EDT (link)Bolton has always been really good in terms of foreign policy (obviously) but I did not like his response to the TSA groping/screenings on Freedom Watch a few weeks ago. Bolton said that the gropings/screenings were necessary for our safety. Not a word about profiling or following the Israeli model.
I don’t want to live in a police state, I automatically crossed Bolton off.
Pence has a very good conservative track record. No on TARP, no to medicare part D, against the GOP compromising on the taxes with Obama, and supports a flat/fair tax.
I also like DeMint alot, but he probably won’t run.
My preference would be:
1. DeMint (conservative before it was cool and took on alot of RINO’s in his own party)
2. Pence: See above
3. Palin: Has been the most outspoken against Obama and I would take her in a heartbeat over any of the establishment types in Huckabee, Romney, Newt.
My Choices
SE-779 (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 5:44PM EDT (link)Cain
Pawlenty
Pence
Santorum
“Earnesty is stupidity sent to College”-PJ O’Rourke
“If you vote based on who has more election signs, you’re an idiot.”-Glenn Beck
“Stupid is what stupid writes.”-Yogi Berra
“It ain’t over til’ the sodaholic passes a gall-stone.”
“If I am going to stick a knife in you I am going to do it up front in your chest, I am never going to do it in your back. You will always see it coming.”-John Oxendine
“If wishes were horses, we’d be knee deep in crap.”-Dr. Robert “Rocket” Romano
“Yeah, try to hide your wild enthusiasm at my return. I find overt displays of emotion embarrassing.”-Dr. Robert “Rocket” Romano
“If you want something cuddly to keep you company, buy a hamster, don’t have a child.”-Jesse Ventura
Who The Heck Would Choose Pawlenty Over Barbour?! Are You Nuts?!! (nt)
IJB Saturday, December 11th at 1:31AM EDT (link)Pence/DeMint nt
jstjoan (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 6:05PM EDT (link).
Three questions that destroy most Liberal arguments according to Thomas Sowell:
1. Compared to what?
2. At what cost?
3. What hard evidence do yo have?
Agree.
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:53AM EDT (link)If neither runs, then I’ll support Palin.
I am actually looking at what Jindal is up to
Raven (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 6:16PM EDT (link)I think he might be positioning himself for a run. He’s no Christie, but he’s a bloody sight better than virtually everyone else who’s made any overtures in that direction.
I think Jindal could do some real good. I would also not be averse to Palin, but I think Christie-Giuliani or Christie-Palin would be best. Christie-Jindal would be nice, too. Of course, the key is Christie.
Gad, think of the team Christie and Giuliani could make. I think I just found my dream ticket.
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
A nation that kills its children will not stand
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 10:35PM EDT (link)The nation, like a house, cannot stand if the foundation is crumbling. How can we speak of justice, freedom and human rights when we are killing the most defenseless people among us by the millions? Giuliani supports the continued legality of our “peculiar institution, which is even worse than the “peculiar institution” that Lincoln abolished.
GIULIANI IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.
Agreed: NO abortion friendly gop candidates...
davidsongirl Friday, December 10th at 11:43PM EDT (link)and no amnesty friendly ones, either. I believe that abortion is a large part of what is destroying us. We must stop it.
That our society tolerates abortion is a sign of the depths of barbarism to which we have sunk - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 1:52AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
You're Wrong about that
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:26AM EDT (link)So you’re saying the abortion is worse than slavery??
Seriously?
Also, you might want to look at the results of Rudy’s tenure as mayor. He encouraged adoption and the number of adoptions increased dramatically while the number of abortions had a sharp decrease.
Look, I’m strongly against using taxpayer money for abortions and I don’t think women should be using it as a birth control device. But I don’t think it’s the job of the gov’t to tell anyone what to do.
Of course, abortion is as bad as slavery...
davidsongirl Saturday, December 11th at 12:48PM EDT (link)as long as we keep averting our eyes from the truth and allow the murder of children for our own convenience, our moral foundation is rotting and our country does not stand a chance of regaining our strength.
That is Ridiculous and Offensive
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 1:48PM EDT (link)Let me ask you this:
If a woman is raped are you forcing her to have the baby?
Imagine the life for the kid, btw: your daddy raped your mom.
It really goes against the principles of conservatism in my mind.
To clarify, I’m always supporting the most conservative candidates. The country is in deep trouble and we need some some reductions and cutting of gov’t programs. That’s why I support conservatives and not RINO’s. As a result, I end up supporting pro life candidates. It’s a trade off for me. I don’t like abortion, my wife would never have one, and I’m strongly against using taxpayer money for it.
But you will never agree on every single issue with a candidate. I do agree with Daniels call for a truce on social issues. It’s too bad that so many on the religious right can’t see past this.
It is not religious
Menlo (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 3:27PM EDT (link)It is a basic and essential function of government to criminalize the intentional killing of others outside of self-defense, especially by a government-licensed “doctor.” It’s not a “personal” thing, and it’s not faith-based.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
The issue with abortion
irishfreedomfighter (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:19AM EDT (link)is not freedom of “choice” for the mother. If she chooses to have an abortion, where is the baby’s choice? Can he or she choose to die? That goes against everything we as a country stand for. You don’t have any life, liberty, or happiness when you are dead, you know.
Judging from your comments, you don’t believe abortion is murder. If abortion is not murder, then the fetus (baby) must not really be a human yet, as if it was, it would be murder. If it isn’t a baby with the same rights as we all have for life and liberty, then what exactly is it?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all or women’s rights and letting them control what happens to their bodies. But when a women is pregnant, it no longer is just her body. Her body is housing the body of a new human being, and to destroy she or him when they are most vulnerable and need of protection is wrong in every way.
Just so you know, I’m not what you would call “religious right”. I’ve struggled with religion my entire life, and was a Deist for several years while I was a teenager, and I was very Pro-life the entire time. I’m a Catholic again now, but that just goes to show that not everyone who is not religious is pro-abortion. I remember at the March For Life in DC back in January that I was riding the same bus as an Athiest who was also there to protest abortion.
you are espousing utilitarianism not conservatism
streiff (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:31AM EDT (link)you logic applies equally to the mentally retarded, the chronically ill, those with Alzheimers.
Why not give the baby a chance to decide whether he’d rather be alive or vacuumed out in parts.
“What keeps me here is the reek of beer, the ladies and the craic”
Amen, Amen, Amen
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:37PM EDT (link)Could not have said it better myself.
And the whole kill the baby because it was the product of rape and is undeserving of life because of the fathers sin has gotten so old. There are tons of cases of children who were the product of rape living in loving homes and growing up to be quite productive. It is simply the call of a person too embarrassed to say they support abortion, so they tiptoe around it.
Perhaps, but
kstone Sunday, December 12th at 9:49PM EDT (link)You say: “There are tons of cases of children who were the product of rape living in loving homes and growing up to be quite productive. ”
However, just as many women, if not more, will end up not bonding with the child due to the circumstances of the conception, often times leading to abuse or neglect. I know a client that had a teen age daughter that she has never had a close relationship with her because she was the product of rape.
If the woman decides to keep the child and is a loving mother, more power to her. But to demand that every woman do so would result in a myriad of social and emotional problems that you would conveniently not have to deal with.
So because a few
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:24PM EDT (link)women are unable to bond then commit a crime themselves, we should be OK with killing a human?
Get lost till you come up with a thought that is not regurgitated rhetoric the left uses.
And by the way, my son is the product of rape and he is treated by wife and myself as our own flesh and blood. So stop presuming many of us do not have a personal insight into the crime of rape and the aftermath.
There is no reason under the sun where you could show me where the law or any moral person would allow a person to be killed due to anothers sin. Yet you want to make the argument that it is OK to do it to a baby. If every woman raped who got pregnant did not want their child so they put it up for adoption, there will still be thousands of families out there who want to adopt a child who are unable to do so due to the lack of babies up for adoption. So stop trying to pass crap off as a viable argument.
Not few women,
kstone Monday, December 13th at 1:53AM EDT (link)thousands. Or as you so cleverly put it: “Tons of women.”
You said: “So stop presuming many of us do not have a personal insight into the crime of rape and the aftermath.”
I presumed nothing, I simply noted that you continually stated that rape victims simply had “something bad happen to them.”
I’m confident that the overwhelming majority of posters on this site would find that statement incredibly dismissive of the trauma of rape, regardless of their personal opinion on abortion.
you say: “There is no reason under the sun where you could show me where the law or any moral person would allow a person to be killed due to anothers sin.”
Frankly, I don’t care if you agree with me or not. I’m not trying to change your opinion, simply stating my own.
you say: “If every woman raped who got pregnant did not want their child so they put it up for adoption, there will still be thousands of families out there who want to adopt a child who are unable to do so due to the lack of babies up for adoption.
I agree that these children could be given to the millions of couples who want to adopt children, and I certainly hope that most rape victims do just that, but you have no right to force your beliefs are somebody who disagrees with you. That would be tyranny.
Tyranny
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 8:59AM EDT (link)how about next time you think you are clever, realize you are not.
I could care less how bad life has treated you, it does not give you an excuse to kill. And since the government is given the obligation to protect our rights which include life, how in the hell do you get it is tyranny to protect the life of the unborn?
God, I hope your head is comfortable rammed so far up your rear. Your “opinion” on killing babies is disgusting and deserving of nothing but contempt.
Apparently, you're incapable of discussing something
kstone Tuesday, December 14th at 1:26AM EDT (link)calmly, rationally, and without making personal attacks. For what it’s worth, I’ll admit that my responses haven’t improved the tone, but I certainly never told you to “shove it” or say you’re “worthy of contempt.”
Nobody possesses a monopoly on the truth, and no individual or agent of the government has the right to force their beliefs on to somebody else (even though the liberals certainly try), no matter what good intentions they may have. I want to strike down Roe v. Wade and end abortion on demand just as much as you do, but I disagree with you on one minor point. Because of this, you keep accusing me of being in league with Planned Parenthood, which is patently absurd. I hate no organization more, especially since they slaughter hundreds of thousands of babies every year with the assistance of $350 million of our tax dollars.
During our first discussion on the other thread, you offered:
“But lets get real, less than 1% of all abortions are done for rape, incest, life of mother so it is sort of a mute (sic) point. I WOULD CONCEDE THE THREE LISTED ABOVE TO SEE THE OTHER 99% ENDED.”
You conceded my entire argument as long as “the other 99% was ended.”
Now you try to change your position and say:
“Your “opinion” on killing babies is disgusting and deserving of nothing but contempt.”
You can’t have it both ways, so which is it? Either you lied when you offered to concede abortion in the case of rape, incest, or life of the mother to see “the other “99% ended”; or you actually agreed with my opinion “worthy of contempt.” (How’s your head feeling up YOUR rear?)
To be fair, you ended our first discussion:
“Maybe we can agree on that and part as friends fighting one thing, dems!”
Had I realized what a hornet’s nest I was stirring up, I would have probably taken your advice. Oh well, live and learn.
Maybe you do not understand the difference
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Tuesday, December 14th at 9:06AM EDT (link)between conceding and condoning. Look up the two words and then lets talk. But then again if your grasp of the English language is that Elementary, we really have nothing to talk about.
I do not like or condone the constant calls of racism by the black community. Anytime I hear it, I let them know how ignorant it is. But if 90% of the black community was planning on switching sides, I would lay off bringing their ignorance to light. But that does not mean all of a sudden I like it or condone it.
Learn the difference.
I never claimed you condoned it,
kstone Thursday, December 16th at 12:36PM EDT (link)I don’t condone it either. But I can tolerate it in those few exceptions if we could eliminate the 99% of abortions performed as birth control, which you agreed with me on the other thread.
That’s all I’ve been trying to say. I was not trying to change your values, just suggesting that there are cases that might deserve exceptions.
Well it’s been a very lively debate, but I have nothing left to add at this point. I’m sure I’ll see you around RS. Take care
So the sin of a father
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:42PM EDT (link)should be brought against the child? Yep that makes sense.
Rape is awful and if we started putting bullets in the brains of all who commit rape, we would cut it down by 90%. But regardless, while the woman is a victim, so is the child. We do not get to kill because bad things happen to us. If that were the case, then I should get to kill the person who lost control of their car and killed a person in my close family. Their behavior resulted in something horrible happening to me, let me kill to make it all better.
If the woman can not face the child, fine. That is understandable. But killing it and justifying the murder because of the rape is not acceptable. And that is a conservative value. Only the individual can chose to live or die or to forfeit their right to life, not another person.
On another thread you told me that...
kstone Sunday, December 12th at 8:55PM EDT (link)“abortion is abortion is abortion.”
Just to clarify, you believe that a woman taking the “morning after” pill after being brutally raped is the moral equivalent of partial birth abortion?
Also, I find the way you constantly equate rape with “something bad happening to you” is offensive and overly simplistic. I doubt you would be so callous if you were the victim of rape.
And you can stop with
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:32PM EDT (link)regurgitated nonsense you have seen come from planned parenthood notes.
As I stated above, my son is a product of rape and my wife and I never considered killing him and he is treated as if he was my own flesh and blood. Your whole argument is baseless and tired and you can shove it. It is sad you are not smart enough to form opinions without the help of liberal groups such as Planned Parenthood. I say that because everything you spew is the same things they have said for years. Do you hate blacks as well because the founder of PP did?
And you can find whatever you want to be offensive, small minds do tend to do that. If you want me to elaborate on what I think about rape and the rapist, ask, but knock off the silly nonsense.
So because I disagree with you,
kstone Monday, December 13th at 1:23AM EDT (link)you question whether or not I hate blacks? Seriously? I don’t know if you just went off your meds, but I would strongly suggest that you seek professional help, because you’re speaking irrationally.
I probably agree with 90% of your opinions after reading many of your posts, but I’ve noticed that anytime someone opposes your viewpoint, you always resort to childish name calling and insults much like a pre-pubescent teenager. So spare me your inane bluster, the opinion of an insolent jerk like you no longer matters to me.
I honestly don’t no how you managed to survive the “Be respectful or be banned” criteria of this site so long, because you’re never respectful of anyone who disagrees with you.
Tissue on row three
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 8:55AM EDT (link)seems you may need to buy a box.
You want to jump in and throw in your nonsense, expect to get called on it. And we are not disagreeing on the color of the sky, we are disagreeing on the life of a human. And to think, you thought you would run in, use the Planned Parenthood arguments about rape, state I would have no clue how it affects people, and run out.
Guess you were wrong, now go grab a tissue!
No nonsense,
kstone Tuesday, December 14th at 1:46AM EDT (link)You’re just too stupid to understand a rational point.
Make a rational point
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Tuesday, December 14th at 9:08AM EDT (link)clever boy, and then I will try to understand it. Up until now, you have made no clever posts or rational post for me to not understand.
But there is always a first time………….
And by the way
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 9:13AM EDT (link)I could care less if you agree with me on 90%, there are some things, abortion included, that are not able to be compromised.
You could agree with every law on the book except stealing and you would still be a criminal. Same applies to me and whatever you may agree on. You may agree with me politically but differ on how valid the constitution is. Well you would not be invited to a conservative party with me. We are not talking about disagreeing whether Palin is ready to be president or if the VAT tax is a good substitute for income tax, we are talking about morality, humanity, compassion, and murder. Sorry bub, but I will not compromise on that one, respect your views on that one, and say lets agree to disagree especially when everything you state is nothing more than liberal rhetoric.
I would kick my own family out of my presence and home for stating pro abortion views, why would I cut you any less slack? It is the life of a baby and you either support life for all or you do not recognize the sanctity of life. There is no middle ground and there is no compromise. And at least I can respect the fact that those who are pro murder state they are, you and the other joker on here are simply cowards who try to justify your pro murder stance without actually admitting you support it. If you can rationalize it sometimes, you will rationalize it all the time or at least take no stand against it. That is just how Hitler got away with killing so many, cowards who rationalized the killing in so many ways.
So now you're comparing me to Hitler? (Godwin's Law)
kstone Tuesday, December 14th at 1:44AM EDT (link)Now I know you can’t be taken seriously. You’re no better than all the liberal douche bags who accused Ronald Reagan and George Bush of being Nazis.
And what makes you think that I would get caught dead at any party, conservative or otherwise, that would invite an ignorant redneck like yourself?
Sex-ed and bioethics for kstone.
Uma Richie (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:53PM EDT (link)The morning after pill has three pathways of action:
1. Keeps woman from producing egg. Thus no child can be conceived. (Contraception pathway)
2. Increases cervical mucous. Keeps attacker’s sperm from getting to egg, if an egg happens to have been released. (Contraception pathway)
3. If pathways 1 and 2 fail, keeps fertilized egg, i.e. new human, from embedding in the uterine wall. (Abortiofacient pathway)
If a woman is brutally raped and takes the morning after pill and then two weeks later shows no signs of pregnancy, there can be many explanations as to why she isn’t pregnant:
1. She wouldn’t have gotten pregnant anyway, and didn’t need to take the morning after pill in the first place.
2. The morning after pill was effective via one of its two contraception pathways.
3. She did conceive, but miscarried naturally.
4. She did conceive, but the morning after pill caused her to abort the child.
Believe it or not, in this situation Catholic bioethics allows for the use of the morning after pill in its contraceptive pathway, because a rape victim has every right to act in self-defense against her attacker, including his sperm. (The important thing is to know where in your cycle you are at any given time, but that is the subject of another post.)
However, the use of the morning after pill in its abortion-inducing capacity is not allowed.
We can say that using the morning after pill to cause an abortion is factually equivalent to a partial-birth abortion in terms of the ultimate effect on the child.
Moral equivalance is much more difficult (often impossible) to establish, because it depends on the knowledge or ignorance of the people involved, as well as their ability to make an informed decision.
Consider these situations:
Woman A: A Catholic obstetrician with years of biometric family planning data about her own body. She has latex-free sex at a time that she knows will almost certainly result in conception within 24 hours. She conceives and then takes the morning after pill three days later, which results in an abortion.
Woman B: A foster care teenager who lives in New York. She speaks very little English knows very little about how babies develop in the womb. She is raped by another foster child in her temporary home. Seven months later, her social worker finds her to be with child and takes her to a clinic where she undergoes a partial birth abortion.
In both situations the life of a human was snuffed out; however, Woman A is clearly more culpable than Woman B.
I hope this helps.
First of all...
kstone Monday, December 13th at 12:55AM EDT (link)thank you for your respectful tone in your response. I will also concede that I am no expert on the morning after pill, as you prove to be very informed about.
My only point was that there are never easy, across the board answers on any ethical topic. The reason I posted was because I commented on another thread that although I am strongly against abortion in most cases, I am hesitant when it comes to rape, and this guy goes out of his way to pick a fight with me over a minor disagreement.
As I stated on the other thread, I respect your opinion that abortion is wrong in every case, but I remain unconvinced in the case of rape when handled immediately after the assault. If the woman hesitates to act for weeks or longer due to trauma, then I would no longer support an abortion. I also agree that Woman A’s actions in your example were inexcusable under the circumstances.
Again, thanks for your respectful consideration. I almost didn’t respond because I knew that I would probably be attacked for my post (which certainly proved true), but I would happily discuss issues with you again. Take care.
so let's kill the child so it doesn't have to deal with the shame that HIS or HER daddy raped HIS or HER mom
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:03PM EDT (link)Makes sense to me….
Not
Check out Rebecca Kiessling...
davidsongirl Sunday, December 12th at 8:21PM EDT (link)www.rebeccaiessling.com She was conceived in rape and nearly aborted.This will give you a different perspective on the abortion in the case of rape issues.
Sorry. www.rebeccakiesseling.com nt
davidsongirl Sunday, December 12th at 8:22PM EDT (link)A truce means what? between what parties? It seems to me that Daniels asked only Republicans to retreat
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 2:05AM EDT (link)from the arena on this issue for fear of offending pro abortion voters. The practical effect of such a truce wouldn’t gain us one net vote, because most of the pro choicers are going to vote Dem anyway and we would lose our own voters who would stay home. Meanwhile, while we are in truce mode, the Left advances their agenda thru the courts, states and Congress. All for what? So we can nominate another Gerald Ford?
Slavery is an evil institution because it turned human beings into chattel with no more rights that a horse. I find the constant ranking of sins quite distracting and irrelevant as the purpose of same is usually to get one so worked up about the non-issue evil that one forgets that even though the supposed number one evil is evil, so is the other based on the merits. Let us walk and chew gum.
Abortion is the killing of really small people, every justification of which can be applied to the severely disabled outside the womb.
If a war was justified to end slavery, so would one be to end abortion.
Moreover, while Roe V Wade invented a right to abortion, the fact is that the Fifth and Fourteenth amendments to confer a right to life and require due process, ie a trial, before killing.
A child in the womb should have the same rights as accused murderers.
The President takes an Oath to uphold the Constitution and to make sure that the laws are faithfully executed and so it would be within his power to stop abortion tomorrow with the force of federal marshals
if he had the courage. None have since 1972 as our nation slouches towards Gomorrah. Is it any wonder that we march like lemmings thru strip machines and allow our women to be groped when we already allow killings of the tiny so that BMW payments can be paid….pampers are so expensive…
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Yes, abortion is worse than slavery
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 3:29PM EDT (link)NH,
You could only say this if you don’t actually recognize that abortion is murder. Yes, the murder of over a million people a year in this country is worse than slavery.
I don’t say that lightly. Chattel slavery was and is (for it is still practiced in Africa, Asia and the Middle East) indescribably hideous.
But it’s not MURDER.
And being murdered BY ONE’S OWN MOTHER, of all people, is unfathomably horrible–wrong on a truly cosmic scale. It is against the whole natural order of things for a mother to turn on her own child and kill him or her.
The biggest error is that such a thing could possibly be just a “private” matter.
For in a world where a person can no longer count even on his or her own mother for at least the most basic support, let alone love, nothing–NOTHING–can be counted on.
In a world where the most absolute kind of tyranny can be exercised by a mother over her own child, ALL manner of tyranny is inevitable.
In a world where even the most innocent and defenseless person can be destroyed at will, what protection is there for the likes of you and me?
I Don't Agree That A Fetus Is a Human Being
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:12PM EDT (link)I don’t believe that the fetus is a human until it is much later along in pregnancy. That means I’m against partial birth abortion, the kind of garbage that Tiller the Baby Killer was doing.
But I don’t see how early on that it is a human. It is simply a mass of cells that has not yet developed into a human.
Again, I don’t like abortion in any way. I don’t think it’s right to tell a woman who was just raped or a victim of incest that she has to have that baby.
To me it’s not anywhere near the same as slavery. If you were talking about partial birth abortions than you would have a much stronger case in saying it was murder.
You are way too squeamish.
Uma Richie (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:53PM EDT (link)You don’t think a fetus is human but rather “simply a mass of cells”; however, you also don’t like abortion in any way. I don’t see your logic.
I think breast cancer is a “mass of cells” and I don’t consider myself pro-choice about it. I am totally pro-excision. I think every woman who has breast cancer, and can tolerate the procedure, should embrace a longer, brighter future and get a surgeon to get that mass out of her body. In fact, I’ve made contributions to cancer research organizations so that they can develop new ways to kill all those nasty cancer cells.
So why don’t you man up and invest in abortion technology developers?
I also don’t understand why you are so hard on partial birth abortion. Who are you to tell a victim of rape or incest that she has to go through that last week of pregnancy?
Didn’t you see the MRI photos of a fetus in the birth canal last week?
Click here if you missed it: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/12/07/woman-gives-birth-mri-machine/
Totally, looked like an alien. There is no way you can distinguish between the humanity of a first trimester fetus and a third trimester fetus. I think you are just trying to impose your religious beliefs on others.
And you and I are nothing but a "mass of cells"
H (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:53PM EDT (link)to many who feel that our conservative views disqualify us from participating in the experience of human life. A Jew was no more than a “mass of cells” the the Nazis. And, indeed, a black man was nothing more than a “mass of cells” to the slave trader of the 19th century.
You hold the view that at some point in your development as a human being, you were not actually a human being. Like it or not, your views are the same as those of Barack Hussein Obama, who voted against the provision of life saving treatment for babies who survives the butchery of abortion.
May you never be in a position to mourn the death of a “mass of cells” in your life. For I guarantee you with God as my witness… it will leave a hole in your soul that will not be healed until the day you meet the Lord face to face, holding the soul of that “mass of cells” by the hand to greet you into his kingdom… should you be so blessed.
Completely Wrong
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:22PM EDT (link)Because I’m not against all abortion that makes my views the same as Obama’s? Hope you didn’t pull a muscle making that stretch.
Hate to break it to you but being pro choice is not the same as waiting to throw a baby that survived an abortion into a closet to die.
Life begins as birth not at conception. That’s what I believe. That’s why it is not murder and to compare abortion to slavery is ridiculous.
I’ve said repeatedly I don’t like abortion because the thought of it makes me sick. I don’t like people being irresponsible and using it as birth control but I’ve always found it wrong to tell a woman who was raped or a victim of incest that she has to have the baby.
Interesting though, that this gets ten responses yet the posts I made in this thread about Newt, Daniels, and Barbour are ignored for the most part.
I
Learn basic biology; belief is irrelevant. nt
Menlo (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:48PM EDT (link)“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
To put it simply, so that a caveman could understand, or even you.
gekster (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:58PM EDT (link)Take this in a biological context.
when an egg gets fertilized, that is when life begins.
It starts growing, and things that are not alive do not grow.
It starts feeding, and things that are not alive do not feed.
It starts to develope, and things that are not alive do not develope.
If you end a life, a living thing, no matter what the stage of developement, for the simple fact of ending a life, that is murder.
A simple question I ask pro abortionist, (it’s not pro choice, because if you choose life over murder, then to them you are not pro choice)
If your mother wanted an abortion when she was one or more months pregnant with you, would you be OK with that?
She has her rights, and for some reason doesn’t want to carry you to full term, and doesn’t want to give birth.
Now you are the baby, a pile of cells, to be discarded for any reason.
Wouldn’t you want to have a say in the procedure?
Look at this video of a mass of cells being aborted, and tell me again that life begins at birth, not sooner.
the silent scream:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4gQ6Yug4Js
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
kowalski: video not for the squeemish.
gekster (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:01PM EDT (link)They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
How Dare You Talk To Me Like That
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:07PM EDT (link)You got alot of nerve for such condescension just because someone disagrees with you.
I presented my beliefs and did so respectfully and you have the nerve to insult my intelligence.
Very classy.
I dare, and answer the question, please.
gekster (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:17PM EDT (link)Your moms pregnate with you and wants an abortion.
She wants to get rid of the mass of cells that are you.
You OK with that?
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
If You Would Open A Biology Book
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:35PM EDT (link)You would learn that in the early stages it is the same development wiseas a chicken or a duck. or pretty much any other animal. It’s not until the later stages that it develops as a human being.
So your question is ridiculous, a baby doesn’t have rational thought. If you’ve paid attention to anything I’ve said you would know that I really don’t like abortion other than in cases of rape and incest.
Here’s your question: your wife is raped and wants an abortion. She will divorce you if you insist on telling her to have the baby.
What do you do?
Tell her to have the baby,
gekster (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:40PM EDT (link)and then she can leave if she still wants to.
Now answer my question.
And a living thing is a living thing is a living thing.
We just care more about humans.
They say Republicans are for the rich, Democrats are for the poor.
If they need more voters,
then they have to make more of who they are for.
We are there in the various Tea Party groups, leaderless, but not rudderless.
We steer always toward the Constitutional principles this nation was founded upon.
Erick Brockway
I’ve gone from
“Hope and Change” to
“Hopeless and Changeless”
It is not a chicken or a duck if it has HUMAN RNA, DNA etc....
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:43PM EDT (link)Looks like someone either needs to read their biology books…or think about what they are saying before the post
NHConservative is totally right
Uma Richie (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:23AM EDT (link)on some things, but so sanctimonious on others.
I just wish he’d stop trying to force his religious views about human life beginning at birth on us.
Isn’t it obvious that if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, and then has the baby, she should be able to take a good look and him/her and then decide if the baby looks too much like the father for her to bear? Afterbirth abortion should be legalized.
Second, if a child is diagnosed with severe autism at age two, the parents should have the chance to drown him in a burning saline solution at that point. I think it would be better for everyone. The parents shouldn’t be forced to change their lives to deal with an imperfect child who doesn’t seem at all rational.
Third, if a thirteen-year old ward of the state already has a coke addiction, a judge should be able to order him to be cut apart limb by limb, because the child has no future anyway and is just a burden to society. I bet they could even harvest his organs for scientific research.
Finally, if a 23-year old total loser is living in his mother’s basement and forcing her, per Obamacare, to keep him on her medical insurance, she has every right to drill a hole in the back of his skull and suck his brains out.
Anti-choice fundamentalists like NHConservative just don’t get it.
Looks Like You're Incapable of Intelligent Conversation on This Subject
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 8:29AM EDT (link)I posted my beliefs and why I feel that way. I never told anyone else that they have to think the same as I do on this or any subject (unlike so many on here who have ganged up on me for daring to have a different opinion on this). Not quite sure how that makes me a fundamentalist on anything.
The whole reason I even responded about abortion in this thread was in response to someone saying that Guiliani was part of the problem and that abortion is worse than slavery.
Agree and disagree it’s not reason to resort to childish insults like one poster who said “let me put it this way so that a caveman or even you could understand.”
I think that everyone should note that those types of inappropriate insults only damage your argument.
BTW: what we’re arguing is pretty much a moot point anyways. I’m strongly against partial birth abortion and using taxpayer money for any kind of abortion. I disagree with it in general for being used as a birth control device. Since I’m very far to right on alot of other issues, I’m always supporting pro-life conservatives anyways.
Looks Like You're Incapable of Intelligent Conversation on This Subject
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 8:29AM EDT (link)I posted my beliefs and why I feel that way. I never told anyone else that they have to think the same as I do on this or any subject (unlike so many on here who have ganged up on me for daring to have a different opinion on this). Not quite sure how that makes me a fundamentalist on anything.
The whole reason I even responded about abortion in this thread was in response to someone saying that Guiliani was part of the problem and that abortion is worse than slavery.
Agree and disagree it’s not reason to resort to childish insults like one poster who said “let me put it this way so that a caveman or even you could understand.”
I think that everyone should note that those types of inappropriate insults only damage your argument.
BTW: what we’re arguing is pretty much a moot point anyways. I’m strongly against partial birth abortion and using taxpayer money for any kind of abortion. I disagree with it in general for being used as a birth control device. Since I’m very far to right on alot of other issues, I’m always supporting pro-life conservatives anyways.
If a fetus is not a human being
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:12PM EDT (link)then why have the courts in many states determined that the murder of a pregnant woman is considered double homicide?
You wouldn’t be a human being if you didn’t start out as a mass of cells. When the egg meets the sperm, the beauty of life has begun.
then you aren't a human being because you began as a fetus nt
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:55PM EDT (link)And I can believe
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:57PM EDT (link)you are not human, but that does not make it true. But there are a ton of people in this country who do not look at others as viable humans and they usually end up in the news facing murder(s) rap.
Your excusing of your belief holds no water. If the fetus is not a human from the moment of conception, then it is never a human till it takes it first breath. And going on that, then why would partial birth abortion be wrong as you are only aborting a mass of cells that has not yet fully developed into a human.
Come on, either be man/woman enough to say you have no problem with the murder of the unborn or take a solid stance against it. The whole mass of cells argument is a tired and bogus justification used by the masses who hold no human compassion such as Planned Parenthood and their racist founder. Pick a side and stick with it. Squishy rump kissing middle of the fence walkers are only cowards unable to take a stand one way or the other.
Feast your eyes on you "Blob of tissue" if you dare...one shows an abortion in progress
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:30PM EDT (link)please let me know what you think once you’ve scene the product….
I’d post the photos but don’t know what the site’s policies are concerning it because they are so disturbing
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/inProgress.html
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures_3.html
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures_2.html
http://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/index.php?p=Abortion_Photos_Warned
I'm at a loss of words
LisaDe (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:44PM EDT (link)I do not think that I have ever seen anything worse than those pictures in my life. They depict the worst and most vile sin that man could possibly ever commit.
I think every pro choicer should be confronted with pictures like this every single day
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:28PM EDT (link)it’s too easy to say it’s just a blob of tissue….it’s not human…it’s not life….till you are forced to look on the little bodies
So tell me then, NHConservative0227...
TNJim (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:37PM EDT (link)When human sperm gets together with a human egg is the resulting developing “tissue mass” gonna be a duck?
It Depends At What Stage
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:57PM EDT (link)When you have a zygote of course it’s going to eventually develop into a human.
My point is that when an abortion happens early enough it is to a “mass of cells” that has not yet developed into a human.
As Kstone said do you think taking the morning after pill is the same as partial birth abortion?
I say we follow your line of thinking
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:37PM EDT (link)since it shows you have yet to develop into a human , as you actually have to have compassion and respect the sanctity of life to be human, and rid ourselves of all who do not fit the human mold.
Why don’t you just man up or woman up, whichever applies, and just state you have no issue with abortion instead of spewing the ignorant nonsense you continue to spew. There is no middle ground on murder, you either support it or you do not. You support it, just not sure why you are trying to fool us into thinking otherwise.
You're the one who said a fetus is not a human being.
TNJim (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:45PM EDT (link)It most certainly is. See Menlo’s comment below, titled “Biologically and factually incorrect”.
No, I don’t think the morning after pill is the same as partial birth abortion. Partial birth abortion is the most horrendous of a horrendous and barbaric practice. But it’s still abortion if it stops a new and developing life.
Now, you said above you think life begins at birth, not conception. Hate to break more biology at you but that’s even more wrong than claiming a fetus isn’t human. It can’t possibly develop if it isn’t alive. The links to pictures and videos posted in this thread clearly show an aborted fetus was human, not a duck, or a chimp, or a dolphin.
You claimed to be against abortion, but you’re showing all the signs of a pro-choicer. Just be honest with us.
Catholic Church teaching is that indeed...
H (Diary) Wednesday, December 15th at 9:22AM EDT (link)the Morning After Pill is an abortifacient. Coincidentally, medical doctors agree.
Whether uncomplicated D&C or partial birth abortion, a human life is snuffed.
Like I said, I hope you don’t have an epiphany on this issue based on personal loss… Better you should reconsider and pray on it before it’s your son or daughter we’re talking about.
Read Chesterton - Catholic bioethics center link
Uma Richie (Diary) Wednesday, December 15th at 9:52AM EDT (link)Thanks for all your work defending the faith. I wish I could do it as well as you.
I just wanted to give you this link outlining the Catholic teaching on the morning after pill in the case of rape. I find it biologically sound — Basically, a rape victim can take the morning after pill if she is not pregnant, if she has not yet ovulated, and if the pill has a reasonable chance of preventing ovulation.
http://www.ncbcenter.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=301
Thank you Uma
H (Diary) Wednesday, December 15th at 11:42AM EDT (link)The National Catholic Bioethics Center gets good reviews from my Go-to Catholic website, CatholicCulture.Org, so that’s good enough for me.
Biologically and factually incorrect
Menlo (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:38PM EDT (link)A complete living organism of the human species is a human, regardless of size, appearance, or condition of dependency. That simply the way biology defines it and always has. It’s an observable fact; there is no question of belief, faith, or interpretation involved.
“The ultimate touchstone of constitutionality is the Constitution itself and not what we have said about it.” -Felix Frankfurter
we didn't desolve the slaves in saline solution or suck the brains out of their sculls
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 7:59PM EDT (link)with their bodies already delivered through the birth canal…so yes…abortion is worse than slavery
You're Wrong about that
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:26AM EDT (link)So you’re saying the abortion is worse than slavery??
Seriously?
Also, you might want to look at the results of Rudy’s tenure as mayor. He encouraged adoption and the number of adoptions increased dramatically while the number of abortions had a sharp decrease.
Look, I’m strongly against using taxpayer money for abortions and I don’t think women should be using it as a birth control device. But I don’t think it’s the job of the gov’t to tell anyone what to do.
Not the job of the government? Really?
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 3:42PM EDT (link)It is the most basic and essential purpose of government to have “a monopoly on the use of lethal force.” To put it another way, it is the job of government to prevent the private use of lethal force, i.e., civilians killing each other.
If it’s not the job of the government to tell people what to do, why do we have laws against rape, armed robbery, embezzlement and child pornography?
The real issue here is not “government telling people what to do,” for it clearly does that all the time — including on much less serious, non-life-and-death matters such as tax evasion and littering.
The real issue is whether or not you believe that deliberately killing an innocent, defenseless person should be allowed. My guess is that you’ve bought the 40-year-long brainwashing project to convince people that a baby is not really a baby.
westforwest- I agree
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 4:10PM EDT (link)I’m quite sure there are plenty of people that are walking around right now that were the product of rape. It is not the innocent child’s fault that it’s conception wasn’t done with it’s creation pre-planned or even wanted. Adoptive parents can be wonderful, and, even a foster home would be chosen by the child over the child’s demise.
There are some people who just don’t believe in an ordered society, with traditional values, and, think government has no place “interfering.”
Abortion kills REAL PEOPLE
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 3:16AM EDT (link)Indeed there are such people walking around, Scope. I know a couple of them–and they are lovely, loving women without whose presence this world would be a poorer place.
I also have met a couple of people — Gianna Jessen, and a young man in my town — who were “born-alive” babies, i.e., survivors of late-term abortions. Both of them are incredibly talented people who are making huge contributions to the world.
It’s worth noting that all four of these people are believing Christians.
Sometimes I think that the real problem pro-abortion people have is a pathetic lack of imagination. They can’t imagine how wonderful life can be, how rich with possibilities and potential wonders, how beautiful and marvelous and exciting, regardless of inauspicious beginnings….
oops, I wasn't clear
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 3:19AM EDT (link)Sorry, in my first paragraph, I didn’t clarify who I meant by “them”– I meant people who were conceived as the result of rape.
westforwest- If a pregnant women is murdered, why is it classified as a double murder
Scope (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 5:07PM EDT (link)n/t
Not the job of the government
PowerToThePeople (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:02PM EDT (link)to tell anyone what to do? Do you think through your arguments or just look them up on leftist pro abortion sites then come in her and regurgitate them?
So since the government should not be able to tell anyone what to do, I can come to your home, shoot you in the head, take your stuff to enrich myself, and you would state no one should be able to stop me or tell me I am going to jail for what I have done?
If your life has meaning, is deserving of protection from the government, and should your life be taken the government should step in and arrest and prosecute the person who stole your right to life, then the unborn deserve at least the same amount of protection without people like you denying them the same thing you enjoy!
And quite frankly, I and most compassionate people are not that impressed with your wishy washy take no side middle straggling support abortion BUT by God do not make me pay for it argument!
Considering that abortion has essentially erased a couple of generations of blacks from the human population...
H (Diary) Wednesday, December 15th at 9:31AM EDT (link)Are you saying Lincoln would have chosen abortion over slavery for blacks given the choice?
We’re talking genocide here. Ever read Thomas Sowell?
Christie rolled his eyes about Palin...
davidsongirl Friday, December 10th at 11:45PM EDT (link)so I don’t think a Christie/Palin ticket is very likely.
...well, I'm rolling my eyes about Christie!
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 3:27AM EDT (link)Hrmph ! Phooey on him!
Yeah. Heaven forbid we should have
mbecker908 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:29AM EDT (link)somebody on the ticket who’s actually accomplished something.
westforwest- The eye rolling incident
Scope (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:40AM EDT (link)is the least of Christies downfalls. His environmental positions make him a non-starter for me, among a few other things.
Like his "neutrality" on the GZM issue...
H (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 2:05PM EDT (link)Likely Christie attended more than one 9/11 funeral… so a “present” vote on the GZM issue puts him into the typical NJ Country Club Republican mold, at least on social issues.
We can do better, I hope. And I speak as a NJ resident.
Agree with you on this... nt
davidsongirl Sunday, December 12th at 8:19PM EDT (link)Well, didn't expect that
Raven (Diary) Friday, December 31st at 12:34AM EDT (link)Giuliani may not be openly or even outright Opposed, per se, to abortion, but his actions as mayor of NYC and his support of adoption as an option (for those kids of raped mothers, even), had a significant impact on abortions in NYC during his tenure (they went down; a lot).
Besides, I want him as VP because of his bare-knuckled bureaucracy combat abilities. We need a President with the best ideology we can get but we also need someone to clear out the bureaucrats who are really running things. Giuliani is the most experienced and most capable in that field.
“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36
Mine...In Order
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 7:58PM EDT (link)Barbour
Perry
Pence
Palin
Thune
Santorum (Has Been)
Huckabee (Flake)
Pawlenty (McCain’s Favorite Republican)
I don’t know enough about Petraeus or Cain to have an Opinion.
I'm of the opinion that Cain...
acat (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 8:36PM EDT (link)is better than your bottom three ..
Unlike Santorum, Cain has run both a business and a trade association. He knows how to make and keep a budget.
Unlike Huckabee, Cain doesn’t leave a slimy feeling after listening.
Unlike Pawlenty, Cain is a good speaker.
Just sayin’
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
I'm for Palin/Cain...
azaeroprof (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 8:55PM EDT (link)just so I can copyright the bumper sticker slogan “Pain/Calin” and make a fortune selling it to liberals!
Oh, and I just thought of another:
“Cain and Unable”
Oh, I crack myself up!
I simply have to claim ignorance where Cain is concerned...I know NOTHING about him nt
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 9:11PM EDT (link)I am ALL FOR Palin/Cain!
davidsongirl Friday, December 10th at 11:22PM EDT (link)Do check him out if you have not yet. Many are hoping to convince him to run, and he is considering it. He would bring an entirely new dynamic to the race; he’s solid, experienced, and a tremendous speaker.
I’d be all for any combination of Palin,Cain, Pence,Jindal, Perry or Ryan, though I think we might need Ryan to stay where he is for now. If Palin doesn’t take the presidency, I think we need her in Energy.
In another 4-8 years, I’d like to see West, Rubio and Ryan in a bigger role, but I think we should give West and Rubio the chance to serve in Congress first.
I think Daniels has hurt his chances, though he could be invaluable in a financial role, as could Steve Forbes.
I think Romney has also hurt himself it by not speaking out and not denouncing MassCare. He’d be great in a financial role.
Gingrich should be involved somehow; he has too much knowledge for us not to ask him to serve.
Barbour and Jindal have both done great jobs and would be assets in larger roles. Likewise for Peter King and Pete Hoekstra.
OH – and Mark Levin for AG. Yes.
So, there is my 2 cents, FWIW!
After reading posts on Allen West...
davidsongirl Friday, December 10th at 11:26PM EDT (link)I think he would be fine not to serve but one term in the House considering his other strengths. Yes, he’s terrific.
LEADERSHIP does not depend on Congressional tenure
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 12:38AM EDT (link)YEAAAA!!
Davidsongirl, you have made my day.
We will have better leaders, I think, if we ditch the “have to serve X number of terms in Congress” fetish.
I keep going back to Eisenhower. He was a good president. In fact (I may be a little biased here, but) I think he was a great one.
Yeah on Levin!
bs61 Saturday, December 11th at 1:10AM EDT (link)On West and Rubio – our country can’t wait for 8 years! I love West, and he’s not afraid to speak of Islam.
I'd be thrilled with either of them!
davidsongirl Saturday, December 11th at 12:51PM EDT (link)…and after Mark is AG for a while, he can join the Supreme Court. He may have to change his radio show, but we’ll have to make the sacrifice.
Waiting around is a luxury we don't have
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 4:13PM EDT (link)bs61,
My sentiments exactly!
We simply do not have the luxury of waiting around for another 8 years!
What would have happened to Western civilization if, in April 1940, England had decided to wait around for another 8 years before making Winston Churchill prime minister?!
With respect
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 12:04AM EDT (link)Churchill had a record in government that showed his philosophy of governance and how he would approach issues. (I would also note that the duties of a PM are distinct and less, shall we say, executive than those of a President.) While I like Cain, West, and Rubio, we need to see how our erstwhile heroes will legislate (and preferably, how they would govern later down the road) before coming to premature conclusions regarding their respective suitabilities as President. Given the failure of legislators-turned-President, I implore conservatives to look for a former executive with a record of conservative excellence, rather than hitch their respective stars on a hope that won’t change anything (to borrow a phrase).
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
This is true
Neil Stevens (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 12:32AM EDT (link)Churchill had a long record, and had been an important minister in the past if I recall.
RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Was in government since ~1900
aesthete (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 12:48AM EDT (link)and held several important leadership roles from that point until his decisive PMship (if I recall, he was some high level functionary in S Africa directly after the Boer War). He was at least Home Secretary (in charge of internal affairs in England and Wales) and First Lord of the Admiralty.
“It is a popular delusion that the government wastes vast amounts of money through inefficiency and sloth. Enormous effort and elaborate planning are required to waste this much money.”
-P.J. O’Rourke
Yes, but...
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 3:33AM EDT (link)Very good points, aesthete and Neil.
BUT, I keep going back to Eisenhower–no previous government experience whatsoever, only military.
And what'd he accomplish? (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 6:56AM EDT (link)RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
well
kyle8 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:21AM EDT (link)He presided over a huge expansion in the Federal government. On the other hand, he did begin building the Interstate Highway system. That was nifty.
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
#2 is a subset of #1 (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:23AM EDT (link)RS contributing editor and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
Read the RedState Posting Rules
Unlikely Voter: Poll Analysis, Election Projection.
“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
Not true...Ike presides over the death of many depressioin erra programs...
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:36AM EDT (link)and oversaw the demobilization of American military production which had been centralized and controlled by the government back to free enterprise.
He’s not my favorite president…he was a moderate…but to say he presided over a huge expansion of the federal government is over similifying a difficult time
but Ike and the GOP didn't go far enough and even Eleanor, JFK and Nixon campaigned for MORE
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:45AM EDT (link)cuts (or at least not expanding) Soc Sec and other New Deal programs. Their campaign is documented in a book titled “Kennedy and Nixon”…more later
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I agree he didn't go far enough...and I have NO LOVE FOR NIXON WHATSOEVER
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:05AM EDT (link)Nixon was worse than Johnson because he took what Johnson did and doubled down…
back to Ike….I agree…he didn’t go far enough in repealing the great society….and could have done much more…but it’s not even close to true to say Ike EXPANDED government since he oversaw the continuation of demobilization of America’s war effort which began under Truman. No only did he continue breaking up the centralized industrial controls that were part of the war effort…he oversaw and signed legislation repealing or de-funding a lot of great society programs that were responsible for prolonging the Great Depression.
Ok, I think we have to separate the military from the discussion of Big Government
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:21AM EDT (link)given the unique circumstance of demobilization after a great war. Also, we are talking about what was done about New Deal programs after WWII and before JFK’s Presidency and LBJ’s Great Society that followed.
The Eleanor/JFK/RMN coalition I am speaking of occurred in the late 40s and early to mid-50s, before either JFK or RMN were president.
During that era, Republicans held Congress for most of the time and during that time they did expand Social Security, which dwarfs the cutting that was done on non-Soc Sec New Deal programs. This all occurred before the conservative movement got going well and was one of the reasons that Buckley et al felt the need to start the movement as both parties were for bigger domestic government and entitlement expansion.
Yes, LBJ made things even worse with the Great Society.
The reason I emphasize this is partly due to the tendency of conservatives to place all the blame on FDR, whose policies admittedly prolonged the Depression and who instituted many fascistic/socialist programs and policies.
But as to what survived the war, after he was dead, had Republicans in the late 40s and 50s had simply kept Soc Sec as the supplement it was when FDR died, we would all be so much better off today, imho.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
When I say demobilization...I am talking about domestic idustrial production
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:37PM EDT (link)industrial production and the economy went from a central planing model where you had multiple companies manufacturing Jeeps for instance where the government told them what and how many they could produce…to a system where Willies was the sole manufacturer of Jeeps…where the market determined how many were manufactured, at what price and the means of distribution were all controlled by private industry and not the war department.
And again…,many….though not all …great depression era Great Society programs were outright repealed or de-funded during this period….Granted I wish there had been many more de-funded…and those that were de-funded should have been repealed outright.
That’s not the argument I was making however…Yes it would have been nice had Ike done more….AND the Republican Congresses of that era as well…and no….they shouldn’t have expanded social security…On all this we agree…my only point in my first point here is the silly statement that Ike “greatly expanded” the size and scope of government which is historically and factually not the case.
I read an article recently that listed all the programs and cabinet level agencies that were eliminated during this time frame…the WPA comes to mind though I’m not sure whether it was Ike or Truman who signed the legislation.
That’s the extent of my only point…yes some programs grew….many were abolished….and the economy went from a government/war department centrally controlled wartime economy once again becoming a free market, supply and demand driven economy….as such…over all it didn’t expand….government control waned for the most part under Ike and grew under Johnson, Nixon and Ford.
understood and agreed - thx for the detail - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 1:31AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Ike's primary function as overall commander of allied forces was as a diplomat and logistician
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:30AM EDT (link)Not only did he have to work with American, British, Canadian and free French Governments, he had to deal with all the intricacies involved in integrating these armies, dealing tith the logistical nightmare of keeping them all supplied and working together toward the same goal.
To say he had no experience in government misses the mark. Ike was the ultimate bureaucrat overseeing the most vast and complicated bureaucracy ever assembled as overall commander.
As an executive, Ike was probably the most qualified person
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:45PM EDT (link)in the history of the modern day Presidency. In terms of navigating constituencies (both foreign and domestic) and in terms running large bureaucracies to achieve necessary ends, he had done it all and done it well.
I think executive experience is far more important than government experience, but Ike obviously had both in spades
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
As an executive, Ike was probably the most qualified person
JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:45PM EDT (link)in the history of the modern day Presidency. In terms of navigating constituencies (both foreign and domestic) and in terms running large bureaucracies to achieve necessary ends, he had done it all and done it well.
I think executive experience is far more important than government experience, but Ike obviously had both in spades
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Churchill wrote between eight and ten million words.
Greg Garrison (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 5:23PM EDT (link)Sorry, I’m constitutionally incapable of being concise (3000 words is like a prelude to a thought), and that number blows my mind. I don’t have much else to add except to echo the sentiment that he can’t be compared reasonably to West (who is great on his own merits, in my opinion). Huge experience gap between the two, huge difference in career path, temperament, etc. You should find someone else to use as a benchmark, westforwestwing.
http://www.thejoyofreason.com
“The art of compromise, which is central to a successful democracy, is not something that people learn overnight.” – Donald Rumsfeld
Not only that, he held a lot of what we would call "Cabinet" level positions involving the defense
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:24AM EDT (link)From Wiki:
From memory, Churchill and Lusitania.
acat (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:34AM EDT (link)The Lusitania was suspected of smuggling weapons from America to England before the U.S. was officially involved. German U-boats sank her.
Churchill, IIRC, had oversight of the recovery of the bodies (and losing the evidence of any weapons) at the time …
Just from memory, no cites and no time to hunt them down. Take with a salt shaker.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
Why I compare West to Churchill
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 4:30PM EDT (link)My comparisons of Allen West to Churchill are not in terms of Cabinet experience. I compare West to Churchill in terms of CHARACTER and VISION.
1. West, like Churchill, has a deep, thorough, spot-on knowledge of our enemy;
2. Like Churchill, West is absolutely fearless in his efforts to wake up everyone else to the nature of our enemy and what our enemy is up to; and West, like Churchill, does not get discouraged by people’s refusal to face up to it, and instead, just keeps plugging away at the thankless job of getting the truth out;
3. Like Churchill, West doesn’t give a hoot about “political correctness”;
4. Like Churchill, he is a man of honor and integrity, and a patriot who PUTS HIS COUNTRY FIRST;
5. Like Churchill, he has a very deep understanding of the foundations on which Western civilization, and hence, our rights and liberties, are based, and will do everything humanly possible to defend them.
I know it's early, but I want to cast a vote for
davidsongirl Saturday, December 11th at 12:55PM EDT (link)Presidential Speechwriter: DOCTOR ZERO (aka John Hayward)!
Ignorance is still no excuse...especially since Cain posts on Red State.
acat (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 9:07AM EDT (link)Start here:
http://www.redstate.com/thehermancain/
Think of this as your holiday reading assignment, Ace.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
heh...I knew he posted here...I've noticed his poswts a lot
AceInTX (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 10:06AM EDT (link)is he from east Texas?
Cain is from Georgia. He was the first republican I ever voted for after moving to the Peach State
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 10:11AM EDT (link)He ran against Isakson in the GOP primary for US Senate. Cain made his name by turning Burger King and Godfathers Pizza around while with Pilsbury. He has had a talk radio show here in Atlanta for several years.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
OK...Now I think I know who he is....There is a Herman Cain that ran for Congress from East Texas as well
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 1:44PM EDT (link)I do know a little more than I thought I did about Cain when you put Burger King and Godfather’s Pizza in the mix…(I thought it was Papa Joes?)….but I still have a basic ignorance about him beyond that…I think I’ve heard him speak…and heard an interview of him….and that’s all I know…Looks like I have some self edumacation to do since so many here seem so hot on him
Herman Cain was one of the primary "saboteurs"
davidsongirl Sunday, December 12th at 8:26PM EDT (link)of the Clinton health care plan. He challenged Clinton at a town hall and turned the argument around.
was that when Hillary replied thatg she wasn't responsible for every underfunded business in the country?
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:40PM EDT (link)I remember that vividly….I was giddy as a school girl after that happened…heh
My respect for Cain just jumped 10 notches.
Mary Beth (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:55PM EDT (link)“A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency, or simply to swell its numbers.” ~ Ronald Reagan
guess I am not the only one
kyle8 (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:24AM EDT (link)with the slimy feeling heh
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
This Would Roughly Track With My Preferences...
IJB Saturday, December 11th at 1:35AM EDT (link)…Though I’d put Pence higher than Perry, and Santorum higher than Palin or Thune (though I actually *don’t* want Santorum to run, as he has *no* chance…).
But, of the 2012 “oft named” prospectives, Barbour and Pence (and he should run for IN GOV instead) are the only two that I could even get remotely excited about…
This is Disturbing About Barbour:
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:39AM EDT (link)Looks like he was/is on board with Moochelle Obama’s food polics program:
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/12/02/reminder-big-labor-big-nanny-mrs-os-government-nutrition-bill/
This is definitely something to watch if we get to that point nt
davidsongirl Saturday, December 11th at 12:52PM EDT (link)This is Disturbing About Barbour:
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 11:39AM EDT (link)Looks like he was/is on board with Moochelle Obama’s food polics program:
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/12/02/reminder-big-labor-big-nanny-mrs-os-government-nutrition-bill/
ditto - Ace's order is DeVines - unless Watts would run...nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:41AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
hey...nice to know we're of one mind yet again!
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:38AM EDT (link)Great minds thinking alike…heh
now I'm really worried...smile - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 11:00AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
For Your Consideration
Ausonius (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 9:09PM EDT (link)In No Particular Order
Allen West of Florida
Michelle Bachmann of Minnesota
Peter King of New York
Paul Ryan of Wisconsin
Peter Hoekstra of Michigan
Thaddeus McCotter of Michigan
J.C. Watts of Oklahoma
There is a former Republican president who only had one term in the House, and never made it to the Senate.
He turned out to be okay!
Ausonius: 310-395 A.D. Teacher, Poet, Consul, General, Farmer.
Personal Tutor to the future St. Paulinus of Nola and to young Gratian, heir to the throne during the turbulent final years of the Western Roman Empire. When his former student Gratian was assassinated, Ausonius threw up his hands and retired to his farm in Gaul. Rome was captured by barbarians 14 years after his death.
Cato@rock.com
AND…Know Your Czars…Before They Hit BIG BRObama’s Unemployment Line in November: http://www.czarcards.us/
JC Watts?......intriguing
AceInTX (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 9:14PM EDT (link)hadn’t thought about him in a while…I’m in if he’s in.
I don’t think you could get him to run though…
Probably Watts Is Not Interested: Tim Scott (S.C.) ?
Ausonius (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 10:19PM EDT (link)We do need to watch Tim Scott of Representative from South Carolina: he could be a contender!
Watts burned a good number of bridges in 2008 because he was upset with the nomination of McCain (who wasn’t?), and there were even rumors he would be voting for Big BRObama.
Ausonius: 310-395 A.D. Teacher, Poet, Consul, General, Farmer.
Personal Tutor to the future St. Paulinus of Nola and to young Gratian, heir to the throne during the turbulent final years of the Western Roman Empire. When his former student Gratian was assassinated, Ausonius threw up his hands and retired to his farm in Gaul. Rome was captured by barbarians 14 years after his death.
Cato@rock.com
AND…Know Your Czars…Before They Hit BIG BRObama’s Unemployment Line in November: http://www.czarcards.us/
Yes! Allen West it is!
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Friday, December 10th at 10:42PM EDT (link)Ausonius,
You are my kindred spirit here!
I’m so disappointed that for the second time today, our good host, Erick, has neglected to put Allen West on the ballot!
Radical Islam is much worse than the Nazis, and we have an Appeaser-in-Chief in the White House who’s much worse than Neville Chamberlain (Chamberlain was naive and cowardly; Obama actively despises this country); waiting in the wings, we have a Winston Churchill in the person of Allen West. We would be fools not to elect him!
You may recall that Dwight Eisenhower did not serve a single day in Congress–zero, zip, nada. He darn sure didn’t lack for “executive experience”–and neither does Lt,. Col. West.
after Obama
waitstaph (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 1:42AM EDT (link)I think people may be wary about voting for someone who is inexperienced. I see your point on Eisenhower, but he led an entire war. That is an untold amount of experience in and of itself. Also, we have a vast untapped reservoir of naturally conservative voters in the Hispanic population, and Col. West’s associations with Joyce Kaufman will not play well with them. She would be Col. West’s Jeremiah Wright.
Ike did NOT lead an "entire" war! Only the ETO. nt
audax (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 7:58AM EDT (link)Audeamus pro audere est facere
O.T. but can someone answer this question?
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 3:46PM EDT (link)OK, I give up. Would someone please tell this poor ignorant newbie what the heck “nt” means? I keep seeing it all over the comment threads. As fun of an exercise as it’s been to try to figure out what it stands for, I’m finally tired of being completely stumped. Help, please.
nt means "no text" below the title :)
davidsongirl Saturday, December 11th at 11:06PM EDT (link)haha – i had to ask the same thing
Hmmm.... good point, waitstaph.
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 3:59PM EDT (link)At least he did not go through with hiring her — so maybe that whole fiasco turned out for the best.
Interestingly, Kaufman is half Puerto Rican (Jewish dad, PR mom, Kaufman jokingly refers to herself as a “Jew-Rican”).
On the other hand, what with the drug cartels and Hezbollah working ever more closely together, and making so many inroads here, the border is, in the minds of more and more Americans every day, turning into a huge national-security issue (see my Dec. 7 and Dec. 10 diaries). I think the Evil Trinity of Chavez/Drug cartels/Hezbollah will be on EVERYONE’s radar screen by 2012, so, who knows? People may, by then, be more sympathetic to Kaufman than we imagine!
Cain winning so far...
traversecityconservative (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 9:11AM EDT (link)Would like to point out the fact that Herman has the most voters, even more than Sarah. I really think he is her ONLY competition. Once he gets in and takes the stage, most of the others will look like Rinos. Plus he actually has “solutions” and not rhetoric (i.e. working on repatriated profits).
What can we do to raise his profile?
davidsongirl Saturday, December 11th at 12:53PM EDT (link)I don’t understand why many don’t know him, considering all of his commentaries and radio show, but we need to work on that.
What about the "government experience" thing?
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 4:03PM EDT (link)Ummm… does Herman Cain have even a lick of “government experience”?
People keep holding that against Allen West — but at least Allen West has 22 years experience in the military, most of that time in life-and-death-responsibilities leadership positions.
Why the double standard, folks?
How about None of the Above!
littlel Saturday, December 11th at 1:15PM EDT (link)As of today we do not know what our “Newly” electeds are going to do to us. Given the backroom “deal” offered on Tax extensions–None deserve our support at this time.
DeMint Was Against It
NHConservative0227 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 1:50PM EDT (link)Pence and Bachmann weren’t too high on it either.
All 3 of them are real conservatives who would serve us all very well in any public office they hold
My Picks
warkarma Saturday, December 11th at 5:00PM EDT (link)Petraeus
Pawlenty
Pence
Santorum
I’m surprised that Rubio was not in the qualifying rounds. I have a feeling he’s going to end up as Veep on the 2012 ticket.
I support a Mitt Romney / Tim Pawlenty ticket in 2012.
Oh, YEAAHHHHH....
westforwestwing2012 (Diary) Saturday, December 11th at 5:41PM EDT (link)West/Rubio: My dream ticket!
Senior Petraeus aide says those who don't like DADT should leave the military
katesmith (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 4:07AM EDT (link)On TV in interview.
Simply amazing
kstone Sunday, December 12th at 8:06PM EDT (link)That a Command Sergeant Major would say something so rash with Army retention rates dangerously low.
Careful what you wish for CSM Hill, you may just get what you want to the tune of tens of thousands of military personnel opting not to re-enlist. Very stupid move!
Have to ask you to back that up.
proudmarinemom (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 4:15AM EDT (link)Where do you get the data to support your statement that Army retention rates are dangerously low?
Is there any evidence that reinstatement or repeal of DADT will have any impact whatsoever on enlistment or retention rates?
I was not speaking so much to the policy of DADT,
kstone Monday, December 13th at 11:08PM EDT (link)but more to the CSM Hill’s”lump or leave it” mentality. Polls of service members regarding DADT show that approximately 26% favor it, 37% oppose it, and 37% were unsure. I just think it’s unwise to give an ultimatum to a third of the military to get out if you don’t like the policy.
As to retention rates, I will admit that they are actually looking pretty good lately after searching for the numbers. Perhaps I was too hasty based upon my own personal experience. When I served in the Army from ’90-’95, the retention rates were always a constant concern of the brass. Thanks for keeping me honest.
Have to ask you to back that up.
proudmarinemom (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 4:15AM EDT (link)Where do you get the data to support your statement that Army retention rates are dangerously low?
Is there any evidence that reinstatement or repeal of DADT will have any impact whatsoever on enlistment or retention rates?
when do we get ROUND 3?! nt
AceInTX (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 9:39AM EDT (link)At least on RedState the squishes die an early and ugly death
E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Sunday, December 12th at 8:05PM EDT (link)Loving it.
Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO
Yeah....Yeah...Yeah Baby
AceInTX (Diary) Monday, December 13th at 12:06AM EDT (link)