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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

Amazing: A View Inside the Josh Marshall Echo Chamber

This one just makes me laugh.

Josh Marshall, Editor of the left-wing “Talking Points Memo,” writes, “A year ago, no one took seriously the idea that a federal health care mandate was unconstitutional.”

Maybe on the left, but on the right it was a fundamental argument. In fact, just before Christmas one year ago, the Senate Republicans voted unanimously that the individual mandate was, in fact, unconstitutional.

Getting outside the echo chamber sometimes helps put things in perspective.

Consider this an open thread.

COMMENTS

  • Brian Faughnan

    is that it forces liberals like Josh Marshall to listen to the opinions that they ignored a year ago.

    Liberals always say they welcome a real debate on differing views of government. And then when you offer one, they tell you to shut up.

  • http://www.erickerickson.org Erick Erickson

    n/t

  • Next93

    Ok, so Judge hodgson stated that

    Salutary goals and creative drafting have never been sufficient to offset an absence of enumerated powers

    ,

    but then in the same judicual breath, he severed the mandate from the law, even though the law itself specifically did not include a severability clause.

    Am I the only one who sees this as inconsistent thinking, even for a lawyer?

  • bcochran1981

    Despite the law degree (which I don’t use) hanging on my wall, I have to plead ignorance on the finer points of the federal appeals process. Will the Virginia AG have to file a separate motion on the issue of severability? And if so, do you think he will?

  • Scope

    according to RCP this morning.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    That guy was the biggest screw up I have seen in a long time.

  • AceInTX

    heh

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    As much as I don’t care for Senator Ambition he occasionally gets things right. As I heard him just yesterday saying that if the congress now fails to cut spending there will be a third party. He is right about that.

    Steel is just a dumbass.

  • E Pluribus Unum

    .. . And not know a single person who voted Republican.

  • gwalt

    Clueless in Seattle. They have no idea of what really goes on in opposition to their ideas. We had a friend visit us a few weeks ago and he had no idea Obama had killed Welfare Reform and had killed the Washington D.C. voucher program.
    No, no—not Obama he claimed!! I’m going to have to Google THAT.
    Oh—Google this.
    Same with my in-laws. The ONLY time my F in Law asks me my opinion is to give me his. It’s a tired tactic that I have called out over and over.
    He would rarely let me finish before interjecting his.
    *yawn*.

  • Cheetah772

    That word came up somewhere in the articles written on Obamacare and the recent federal ruling. I looked it up on Wikipedia, and it states that it’s a clause written into any contract or law in the case if a portion of it is declared illegal or unconstitutional, then the remainder of it is still in effect.

    The way I understand it, Obamacare did not have a such clause written into law, so how would severability clause affect its survival in the court, now that a key provision (the individual mandate) is struck down? Seballus built the case around that key provision, and now it’s gone, how would Obama administration proceed on from this point?

  • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics

    An explicit severable clause isn’t needed.
    The law is not a contract.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Next93

    Without an explicit statement of severability, changing any part of a contract invalidates the whole thing, because without the invalid clause, the contract isn’t what both parties ageed to. You can’t change the rules after the game has started.

    The courts don’t have the authority (in theory) to be able to re-write a law after it’s passed in order to make it compliant with the constitution. So, just like with a contract, unless severability is specifically written into the law, the law is unconsitutional in it’s entirity if any part of it is found to be unconstitutional.

    As I mentioned upthread, I don’t see how judge can admonish the congress for overstepping the bounds of consitutiional authority and then summarily add severability to a law that lacks a severability clause.

    Then again, I’m just an engineer, what do I know about “logic”?

  • kowalski

    There are lots of people who think that because they think something, everyone else thinks so too.

    Josh Marshall is one of them.

    It also doesn’t matter much to him whether he’s wrong.

  • Scope

    This SOB isn’t going to show any class, as if he ever did. He will most likely go back to his comments from a while ago when he said- He understands Obama’s problem because he is an African American. Guarantee he is going to fall on that fact, not his lack of fundraising ability, his numerous gaffes, and his inability to get the boots on the ground for the mid-terms. What a creepy loser.

  • Locke
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    The court cites recent precedents that make clear that severance is preferred as a conservative concept so as to leave intact the will of the legislature if possible. Severability clauses, if in bills, merely give more weight to the concept and make clear Congress’s will and intent. Moreover, if Congress wants to repeal bills when parts of same have been severed, then they can do so.

  • Locke

    http://www.heartland.org/healthpolicy-news.org/article/28243/A_Guide_to_Severability_and_Obamacare.html

  • AceInTX
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I think the Roberts Court will use the occasion to overturn some Commerce/Nec&Pro clause precedents that this judge was bound by in his decision.

    more later

  • AceInTX

    I started pointing out his RNC funds to Guam ploy…the Delegates in the US Territories vot for RNC Chair….he’s been using RNC funds to buy votes for his own aggrandizement….

    What’s worse in the Guam instance is that he spent the funds in the middle of the midterm campaign when the RNC was short on funds and neglecting GOTV efforts

  • Scope

    I had forgotten about that. He also seems to have used his “Fire Pelosi” bus tour to try to garner support across the US. That Steele campaign for RNC bus tour money would have gone a long way to a boots on the ground effort. From the times during the year that many prayed that he would drop out then, he hasn’t gotten the message that he is not wanted or desired to be the next chair. With this decision of his, it means he is willing to go to the gutter to keep his position. Ken Blackwell would have been a tremendous RNC chair, he had detailed plans, was a known conservative, and, was not a gaffe prone lightweight. If the Republicans were disappointed with anything Blackwell did, to the point of not wanting him to run again, I suspect he wouldn’t. He was a man of character and pride. Michael Steele has proven to be an affirmative action hire, much the same as Obama. He will try to use that to his advantage. We’ve gotten to the point that no minority can ever be fired, or you are a racist. Sorry Ken Blackwell is not running again.

  • Scope

    if we are really serious about getting a conservative in that position.

  • Scope

    and the greiveing (sp) family left behind that will miss him terribly.

  • BooBooKitty

    Maybe he is the one.

    I’m sure Al Gore helped.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    and stop regulating us. Basically, modern day liberalism had achieved its main declared goals in 1965, which goals have been incorporated in conservatism today. By this I mean a safety net for the truly needy and ending de jure race and sex discrimination.

  • chihank

    The Establishment wants Steele out because Steele laid off many of the Bush people at the RNC when he assumed control. If Steele had kept many of the Establishment on, then Steele would be a shoe in for RNC Chair again,

  • BooBooKitty

    wi-fi, and a gypped-up mortgage in every pot… right?

  • http://dreamsfrommyforefathers.com RoguePolitics
  • AceInTX
  • AceInTX

    but everything else he’s done has been a disaster

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    The presence of such a clause mandates that a court sever. The absence of one means that under certain circumstances the court may not sever if the removal of the unconstitutional provision makes the remaining provisions moot or not coherent towards the purpose.

    I think this is the proper course, since it grants deference to Congress and since Congress can always come back and fix the severed law.

  • Next93

    Wait – do gamecocks HAVE lips?

  • Next93

    Mike, I know you’re a lawyer, but this is one of those places where there’s a huge gap between what passes for “logic” in the law, and a concept we non-lawyers call logic.

    Justifying an overreach of judicial authority by using precedents that are themselves overreaches doesn’t make it any less of an overreach. In a question of constitutionality, it’s the legislatures job to express its intent in the wording of the law, the job of the court is to determine if the law AS WRITTEN passes consitutional muster. The court is supposed to limit itself to determining the intent of the constitution, and let the legislature worry about the intent of the legislature.

    The court has no more right to add a severability clause to a law that was written without one than it has to add one to a contract. Obamacare without the mandate is *not* the Obamacare that was negotiated within Congress and agreed upon in a (quasi) legal manner by the represenatives of the people. Therefore, if the mandate is unconstitutional the whole ugly mess is unconstitutional.

  • Next93

    N/T

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    drafting very narrow opinions. Let’s see who writes it. If it’s Scalia, you’re likely right.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    would be to strike down a whole statute merely due to one provision. I think the confusion on this issue by conservatives here is over the use of severability clauses. Congress knew when it passed ObamaCare that it could include either of the clauses and chose not to, knowing the case law on the subject.

    It is those that argue for mandatory non-severability absent such a clause that are making a leap in logic that doesn’t even apply in contract law, which is not the basis of the legal precedents in this area. In any event, courts uphold parts of contracts all the time despite the non-enforceability of other clauses so as not to work an injustice on a party, especially given consideration paid.

    In the present circumstance on ObamaCare, Congress could have prevented severability by so stating in the bill and the court would have been bound to strike down the whole bill if one part is unconstitutional. It did not do so.

    Now, I find this logical, but as Oliver Wendell Holmes said, the law is based on experience, not logic pre se.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    but the case law on that is extensive. Also, some legal commentators have said that they think the court should have struck down the whole bill based on statements by Obama et al outside the bill. I think that is a tenuous argument. But, if you would like to hire me to research the matter for a fee, I could do you an amicus brief! smile

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Congress does have the power to require insurance companies involved in interstate commerce to cover pre-existing conditions and to impose all kinds of regulations that would make doing business financially prohibitive. But that must be corrected in Congress and not by courts.

    The fact is that to “not sever” is more of an act of overreach than to sever.

    Remember, Congress can re-visit the issue after court decisions but we can’t use the courts to correct bad policies that are not unconstitutional.

    no more later unless I’m paid…smile

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the Constitution between We the People and our government, which contract limits the power of the courts to interpret, not re-write laws. To sever is not the same as inventing abortion rights. Yes, to sever does change the overall bill but is not a re-write. And Congress, with whom We the People have a contract that they make the laws, can decide whether to change the law that remains.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    to sever is the more narrow, conservative action.

  • avgjo

    we’d better have a contingency, right?

    I wonder,

    is there an easy way to make this sucker increase the deficit? (Yes, I know it will, but I mean officially) Because we could then use reconciliation to do away with it, no?

  • ohiohistorian

    Virginia filed their case on the day this law was signed. For this fatuous fool to claim that there was no “serious” discussion of unconstitutionality is the statement of a liar or of someone who is totally disengaged.

  • Scope

    on Friday, he said that Judge Hudson already previously determined that it is a fee, not a tax. He also pointed out that the Northern Virginia Judge who ruled that the bill is constitutional, also agreed that it is a fee and not a tax. There is one more judge that has already ruled that said the same- it’s a fee, not a tax.

    Interesting point- If Obama does not move to take this directly to the SC, the appellate court that it will go to next is very conservative. Cuccinelli talked about that also, and, was reasonably confident of a win there also. If we have two solid wins, we are in an even better position when it gets to the SC. We also have a possible win in Fla. Of course, foot in mouth Eric Cantor is calling for it to go right to the SC now. Can someone please get him away from any and every microphone.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    We all know that Kennedy left the reservation on abortion, Kelo and war powers but he has been conservative on most other issues back when O’Connor was the swing vote. Kennedy had been 100% conservative on the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and joined in with Alito when he replaced O’Connor to overturn some decisions that kicked God out of the public square…until earlier this year when he went the other way. It seems he craves the spotlight and power of making law and I fear he may use the tax argument to uphold this. It would be judicial activism and wrong, but all I am saying is that it would be the path of least resistance.

    I wrote a column back when Obama denied it was a tax, saying that it would have a better chance of passing as such. And it would not be a shock to see a 5-4 that considered it a tax since enforcement is limited to tax refund confiscation rather than a outright fine.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • avgjo

    think that’ll happen?

    Glenn Beck was talking about a story Megyn Kelly did on how many doctors will quit if this crap remains. I wonder if this is a form of that civil disobedience?

    Thanks!

  • avgjo

    think that’ll happen?

    Glenn Beck was talking about a story Megyn Kelly did on how many doctors will quit if this crap remains. I wonder if this is a form of that civil disobedience?

    Thanks!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    They just are making it financially impossible!

  • izoneguy

    All current doctors forced to labor under ObamaCare.

    And you vill like it!!!!!

  • cwilson

    …what little of it was done in public and not inside Pelosi’s and Reid’s offices, supports the contention that the whole THING passed only because it DID have the individual mandate. Some floor speeches, IIRC, directly stated as such when defending the mandate — that the logic of the whole bill falls apart without it.

    Should SCOTUS ignore these statements by the legislators, and say in effect, “The legislators were wrong; the bill can stand without this key bit which is unconstitutional”?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    is to include a clause that states that certain or all provisions are not severable.

    Most of the case law in which whole bills with no clause on severability are struck down due to one clause is when that clause makes the carrying out of the others impossible and/or makes the law incoherent.

    In this case, the other provisions, such as pre-condition coverage etc can be carried out just like other already existing regulations. That they would bankrupt the insurance industry absent the mandate is a matter for Congress to address, not courts.

  • http://www.theprecinctproject.wordpress.com ColdWarrior
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    in cases where the plain language of a bill leaves some component vague. It is always a bit tricky to try and determine intent by reference to the statements of a few legislators. Nothing stopped Congress from including a clause that would have bound the court to throw out the whole bill if it ruled against the mandate.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    of course, there are not mechanisms that help funnel funds to affected industries as in tis case. The conservative judicial approach is to require a heavy burden to throw out whole bills when only a part of same is unconstitutional.

  • JSobieski

    i.e. what legislators said about a bill as it went through the process, is absolutely irrelevant.

    So Scalia would say, yes, the SCOTUS should ignore those statements.

  • JSobieski

    i.e. what legislators said about a bill as it went through the process, is absolutely irrelevant.

    So Scalia would say, yes, the SCOTUS should ignore those statements.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    after having failed to determine intent from the plain language and other tests. The definition of intent being what the words meant to those that passed it.

  • The_Gadfly

    Including Mark Levin who is no piker on calling the whole thing a massive dung heap.

  • The_Gadfly

    And it seems that I shall also diverge from the Honorable Judge Scalia as well.

    I agree that in most instances permitting the courts to sever laws and/or contracts so as to preserve those parts which were fair and agreed to is the correct action. However, cases must depend upon the particulars of the case at hand. And the case at hand is exceptional in so many ways (and thus will also make for bad precedent if cited). So, although it might be true that Congress has the power to require insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions, it is also clear that in passing this particular piece of legislation, Congress DID tie pre-existing condition coverage to the universal mandate. Everybody involved in arguing for the law conceded that absent the universal mandate, the bill destroys the healthcare insurance industry in the US. It likely also destroys the healthcare industry itself because the actual healthcare industry depends so much on the insurance industry.

  • The_Gadfly

    He said that while the court has a reputation as conservative, the Dems (specifically Leahy [sp?]) did a number on it by blocking Bush judicial appointments. So while it is conservative compared to say the 9th or the NE it isn’t as conservative as once it was.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    only that same is not mandated by the circumstances. I do think a good argument can be made for non-severance only that it is not mandatory based on precedent and certainly not by any provision of the Constitution.

    Has Congress included a clause that said it was not severable, the court would have been bound to strike the whole bill down. I suspect that the Dems purposely left it vague to give them maximum leverage.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    they might think they are inviting a ruling against the mandate and so want to make the burden on the courts’ higher to strike down any provision.

    Whereas if they put in a non-severability clause they might think they are making it easier to have the whole bill struck down and thus lose leverage in the repair process.

  • The_Gadfly

    And you are certainly right about that last bit. If any Republican had proposed a clause that the bill was not severable, it would certainly have been denounced as a poison pill.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I consider Levin to be as good a constitutional lawyer in America today.

  • JSobieski

    A covenant running in the land cannot be undone by a breach of a party, and a contractual breach rarely results in specific performance.

    . . . . and yes, this is me lashing out childishly for not picking up on the Reagan to Mondale comment yesterday

  • Scope

    I’ve heard a few people refer to the 4th Circuit as very conservative lately. I am glad to know they’ve changed, not that it is a good thing, but, that they’ve changed.

    Another thought. Kagan said during her confirmation hearings that she would recuse herself on a case by case basis with respect to Ocare. The WSJ called for her to recuse herself in all circumstances with Ocare. She wasn’t nominated until after the bill was passed, I believe. I know she was the Solicitor General when the Fla. lawsuit was filed. I’m not dumb enough to think that the O’s administration would not doing everything in their power to have her decide if/when the case hits the SC. But, if she was forced to recuse herself, and I don’t know if that’s possible, the decision would most likely be 4-4. In that case the lower court ruling stands. It doesn’t matter what kind of mood Kennedy is in at that time. I think the Kagan recusal issue will be a major battle. Then again, Cuccinelli thinks the case won’t get to the Supremes for at least two years, and most likely longer. We can have a new President and larger majorities in both houses by then, and it can be repealed.

  • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

    is favorably disposed to narrow rulings. I think he votes to uphold the ruling.