« BACK  |  PRINT

RS

FRONT PAGE CONTRIBUTOR

The Great Debate

Although it is almost impossible to believe, we are already seeing the first glimpses of the 2012 primaries here at RedState. We have been through one season of contentious primaries before, and although our community has grown, we expect many of the same sorts of issues to crop up. Therefore, this is as good of a time as any to address some of the ways in which we can expect the primaries to affect the site and all the users. We hope that this will be useful in particular to our newer users who were not around for the last round.

The first thing is that we are all going to have to grow some skin that is a little thicker, and exercise a little more patience with our fellow commenters than we ordinarily would. One of the things that is inevitably true about people who are capable of winning Presidential elections is that they attract supporters who are committed, dedicated, and enthusiastic, and who are always ready with an answer for any and all criticism of their candidate. These die hard supporters are necessary for a successful campaign, but they can tend to grate on the nerves of the rest of us who do not share their level of enthusiasm.

To the greatest extent possible, we encourage everyone to get along in the spirit goodwill that usually characterizes RedState; both those who are exasperated by the supporters of Candidate X (be it Palin, Cain, Romney, whoever), and the supporters themselves. Calling fervent supporters of a candidate “bots” “cultists” or other pejorative terms is not constructive and is discouraged. Similarly, reflexive accusations that opponents of a candidate are racist/sexist/elitist/whatever are not constructive and are discouraged. If this behavior on either side becomes a problem, expect that we will take remedial measures to maintain some baseline of civility at the site, including banning.

The second thing is that, sadly, with an influx of new commenters and diarists, many of whom will come to RedState expressly looking for a platform to spread the word about a given candidate, we can expect that the overall quality of the diaries section may dip somewhat. Furthermore, we anticipate (based on past experience) that some (if not all) campaigns may attempt to subersively use RedState to “astroturf” for various candidates. To that end, we ask that diarists posting in favor of primary candidates keep in mind the following guidelines (some of which, as indicated below, are actually hard and fast rules):

  • The most important rule, one that is necessary to protect the integrity of the site, is that if you are a paid consultant or employee of a campaign, you are welcome to post at RedState, but you must disclose that you are being paid by the candidate and indicate your real name. Failure to abide by this rule will result in us banning your account and most likely embarrassing your candidate on the front page by informing the world that your candidate is dishonestly astroturfing the conservative blogosphere. Again: post, but disclose.
  • Do not use the diaries section to post pieces that are only a couple sentences long, or are merely a blockquote with only a couple of sentences. We will try to ensure that the front page features at least one daily Open Thread; these short comments belong there, not in the diaries where they may knock a diary that someone spent a lot of time working on off the page. Be respectful of everyone else in this regard.
  • Please try to be cognizant of whether several diaries have already been posted on the same topic. There is no need for five separate diaries on the latest damaging revelation about Candidate X or the latest great speech by Candidate Y. If you have something truly original and unique to say, please don’t be deterred by the presence of other diaries on the subject. But if there is another diary already up that says substantially the same thing, consider recommending THAT diary and leaving your own observation on the subject in the comments. Again, this is an attempt to show respect to the limited use of diary space, which we expect will become more scarce as traffic picks up for the primary fights.
  • As a general rule, we encourage (but do not require) new users to do more listening and observing the site dynamics before jumping right in aggressively in the comments and diaries. This will help you to avoid damaging your candidate in the eyes of RedState users by inadvertently committing a site faux pas.

We also want to remind everyone that we are all Republicans, and that we expect RedState will be able to heartily endorse whichever candidate emerges from the primary. We will expect everyone to row along together after the primaries are over in order to defeat Barack Obama and roll back at least some portion of the damage he has done. To that end, although we expect that the primary debates here will be spirited and lively, we encourage everyone to remember, in the heat of the moment, not to say things that will disrupt relationships that will be necessary in order to work together towards victory in 2012. And although we do anticipate some amount of rough and tumble and we typically are somewhat more lax during the primary debate season, we will remain vigilant to enforce the posting rules and keep RedState a place where conservatives and Republicans can gather and work together in order to improve the Republican Party and this great country.

Tags: ,

COMMENTS

  • JadedByPolitics

    begrudgingly, pinched nose and all. I of course will support whomever is the candidate but there a couple of those from the last go round who would be a HUGE disappointment to me if they were chosen.

  • Scope

    When we win back the Presidency, we will not only roll back some of the damage Obama has done. We will put his entire agenda up against the wall, and allow the firing squad to have at it.

    Happy Primary Season everyone.

  • michaelbowler

    It is vital that we find the candidate that can bind the various segments of the republican party. I’m not going to plug any individual yet, just an idea. Whoever we decide to field for 2012 must be committed to really solving the fiscal issues we face. In the last presidential cycle we allowed the left leaning press to drive the primary process and we ended up with a candidate that really didn’t reflect the views of the conservative base. Consequentially the enthusiasm to get McCain elected was, at best, lackluster.
    I’m not advocating a right wing extremist, just not the other extreme of republican politics, which Mr McCain surely represents. The candidate should believe in free market capitalism, limited government and repeal of Obamacare. Integrity that can be documented and touted are also important, so candidates who’s beliefs are demonstrably inconsistent are not suitable either. Let’s be judicious about who we choose. One rule of thumb would be that if MSNBC and the other MSM types object, we’re probably on the right path.

  • roscopico

    Is there an exception for Luap Nor drones?

    Just hoping for clarification because man, those people are weirdos!

  • Marcus_Traianus

    Is perfervid so-con a pejorative term? :-/

  • NeoKong

    Yay !!!! John McCain. He’s so ….great…..(sigh) Oh god we’re screwed.

  • JadedByPolitics

    I had to write a diary just to buck up the troops pointing to the ONLY thing that was good about him, his Military service :) Had to take our thrills where we could get em.

  • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

    VB

  • Getting_Back_to_Basics

    I have been a long-time reader of this site, but I have rarely posted because I have been left with the impression that some of my views are not wanted here, particularly on foreign policy. This is principally because of the hostility to Ron Paul that was exhibited on the site in the 2008 primaries. There is no doubt a group of robust Paul supporters may have soured the waters in these parts in 2007/2008, but I believe his views need to be heard within the GOP. My impression, though, is that comments regarding Paul were previously stifled not just because of a few spoil sports who posted but because of his anti-interventionist foreign policy.

    Whether Ron Paul runs or Gary Johnson runs, I hope that in this primary season the site is open for civil dialogue on candidates’ positions who oppose the aggressive foreign policy and nation-building efforts of the past 15 years.

  • jwebb

    n/t

  • edintexas

    I had to use a search engine to find who/what Luap Nor is. Oh well, I guess we rural residents of Texas just don’t get around enough to immediately understand catchy stuff like that. Or maybe it’s just being in the Medicare generation. For the record, I don’t get icons and graphics in lieu of written words either. They simply aren’t “intuitive” for me, I prefer books without pictures too.

    And that’s why I’m drinking here too!

  • roscopico
  • carolina

    I just hope the repub primary process produces a candidate that independents WANT to vote for. I’m not worried about anyone ‘ here’ supporting the repub candidate – but we really need the independents.

    Is there a reliable source, or sources, for independent opinions?

  • streiff

    and that has to figure into any discussion on the matter. I can’t visualize a set of circumstances where we are going to give Ron Paul and his supporters a soapbox.

    The people who did the most damage to their candidate were the Romney supporters.

  • eburke
  • http://westforwestwing2012.com heartlander

    Namely, heading up the Financial Services committee. He is spot- on about the Fed needing to be audited, and I hope he does it.

  • Getting_Back_to_Basics

    I think you are exactly right that he is in a position to influence policy more than he has ever been and although I am a backer of his, I think he can accomplish more on this committee than in a run for president.

    If he ran, it would take considerable time away from this chair assignment that finally will put a spotlight on the Fed’s damage to our economic health. I would not be surprised if Paul doesn’t run in order to focus on the committee. He could pass the torch of the paleocon candidate to Gary Johnson.

  • azaeroprof

    I know a couple folks who are personal friends of John McCain. When I asked one of them recently why McCain decided to stay in the Senate instead of retiring, he responded that the only reason he ran again was that he still wants to be President.

    I personally don’t think he will run again, but then I don’t personally know the man. At any rate, I don’t think he could win the nomination again even if he did.

  • itrytobenice

    commented on the McCain disaster, your comment nearly made me choke.

    At the time, that was a constant and never-ending refrain we had to hear over and over and over and over. We had to have him as our candidate because Independents. Which is vastly different from Independence, let me tell you.

    The Independents deserted their favored guy for Hope and Change and left Republicans with a candidate we didn’t want and an opponent who was a disaster in the making.

    I am not saying we need to make any effort to drive away Independents, but if you think I’m going to take into account the opinions and desires of a bunch of middle-of-the-road, wishy-washy, uninformed, losers who can’t even field a candidate, you’re wrong.

  • http://www.aitfoam.com deadreckoning

    may be the one you have to pull the lever for in the general election.

    Far too often I read or hear how a democrat opponent will use quotes from a conservative and or Republican supporter, used during the primary, to bash the eventual Republican candidate. I am reminded of what my dad used to say about poisoning the waters. I believe Reagan also had something to say about this.

    Good debate is essential to this process. Red State is known for well thought out arguments and decency in debate. These guidelines will help ensure Red State remains the go to site for serious political commentary.

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679
  • Sean (SIConservative)

    If you’ve been here a while and contributed enough on other issues, you’ll generally be treated roughly but fairly for backing Paul. Due to a boatload of his supporters spamming the site last time around, the bar is raised considerably for getting anyone to engage in a debate about him without using words like “kook” or “idiot” (not very helpful, streiff), but it is possible. Your best bet is not to defend such spammers and to instead engage Red State regulars independently while disassociating yourself from those showing no respect at all for the community.

  • ohiohistorian

    There had better be a broad executive, as well as legislative, sunset on his administration. It would not bother me if it said, in the history books of notable accomplishments:
    43rd President, George W Bush
    (lots of commentary)
    44th President, Barack H Obama
    45th President, Sarah Palin (just trying to draw some flak)
    (lots of commentary)

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    The way we can keep him from doing harm is to redistrict him out of the House.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    It was the arrogance and incivility of the Ron Paul supporters that caused us to ban them from the site to begin with.

    I fully expect them to earn that status once more.

  • Sean (SIConservative)

    For one thing, I think this field is more acceptable both to libertarians and conservatives. Speaking for myself, while none of the potential candidates really excites me, there are a lot more I would gladly back (Bachmann, Daniels, Paul, Perry, Pence, Ryan) and a lot more I’d back without much enthusiasm but without serious reservation (Barbour, Gingrich, Huntsman, McDonnell, Pawlenty). To be sure, there will likely be a few “Please, God, not him/her” candidates, but I don’t think there will be much support for them here given that we are likely to have far better options.

  • streiff

    yes, Paul’s spammers poisoned the well. But we banned pro-Ron Paul diaries and comments in 2008 totally unrelated to the obnoxious quality of his supporters who were no less obnoxious than Romney’s minions.

    Paul is a crank. His ideas are little short of bizarre. His nearly sexual obsession with the Fed is inexplicable without resorting to the DSM-4. You do GBtB a grave disservice by saying he will be dealt with “fairly.” If Paul makes it into the 2012 primaries we will undoubtedly be banning his supporters again.

    Paul represents a poison in our party and movement and the quicker we can eradicate him the better off we will be.

  • Sean (SIConservative)

    The ban wasn’t on all Paul supporters. I know, because I backed his candidacy and never encountered a problem with anyone for doing so. I took a lot of fertilizer for it, but was never threatened with a ban. The ban only applied to those who were new to the site and didn’t have a history of contributions on other issues. In fact, I even got some rec’s from old timers on a pro-Paul diary or two. If you don’t believe me, I’d suggest you go back and reread the post that instituted the policy.

  • http://theundergroundconservative.wordpress.com pdigaudio

    I wouldn’t consider SoCon (or so-con) a pejorative, any more than FiCon (or fi-con) for fiscal conservative. Usually Neocon is used by the Lefties as an anti-Semitic slur against anyone who supports Israel. So, to me it depends on what context the phrase Neocon is used,

  • http://theundergroundconservative.wordpress.com pdigaudio

    There’s a reason why I refer to his supporters as Roasted Paulnuts. His defenders say he is not an anti-Semite nor a 9/11 Troofer, but if you notice, Ron Paul tends to attract an inordinate number of anti-Semites and 9/11 Troofers as supporters.

  • streiff

    on our part. I’m more than happy to fix it.

  • streiff

    Troofers, Birfters, anti-semites who are think Pat Buchanan is a squish, economic know-nothings, and the usual smattering of libertines.

  • http://theundergroundconservative.wordpress.com pdigaudio

    Mitch Daniels is on record as being open to the idea of a European-style VAT. That finished him in my book. Not just no, but hell no. We do not need a VAT in the U.S.

    Our problems do not stem from the citizenry not being taxed enough. It comes from government spending too much money. The VAT has crippled numerous European economies.

    The tax debate needs to center on the flat tax vs. the Fair Tax, which by the way is not a VAT, no matter how many people try to confuse the issue. A VAT is a tax imposed on every single stage of production including the final sale. The Fair Tax as proposed by Neal Boortz and others would be a consumption tax paid only on the final sale and would be coupled with the abolition of corporate and personal income taxes, including the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

    Daniels would support a VAT if it were coupled with a flat-rate income tax. Again, not just no, but hell no.

    To paraphrase President George H.W. Bush’s ill-fated words: “Read our lips. No new taxes.”

  • writeblock

    The situation’s still wide open.

    Besides, our best candidates should not be the one who manages to annoy conservatives the least, but the one with the best prospect of winning in a general election. This should be determined by studying the electoral map. Someone from the South, for instance, would do less well in a general election than somebody from the Midwest–though the southerner might seem ideologically more to our liking. But the Midwesterner would have greater appeal in swing states. This kind of consideration needs to be uppermost in our minds. We need to keep our eye on the ultimate goal–defeat of Obama. It’s not victory in GOP primaries.

  • RZ

    almost all the “potential candidates” have said something at one time or another that does not sit well with conservatives. Does that mean we should disqualify them indefinatley? If so, we are going to have a very small field of unelectable candidates.

  • Sean (SIConservative)

    If you want to unilaterally change the site’s stated, two-plus (or is it three-plus?) year old policy here and now by banning someone who’s been a member for over half a decade for respectfully supporting a Republican candidate and member of Congress, go ahead.

  • RZ

    all the potential candidates seem to have more flaws than advantages. People should learn to sit back until the field is settled.

  • http://theundergroundconservative.wordpress.com pdigaudio

    You are correct. We don’t even know what the 2012 field is, since no one has officially announced. All we are getting right now is attempts by the state-run media to influence the process with a bunch of phony polls designed to drive conservatives out as being “unelectable.”

    Remember in 1979 and early 1980? Establishment Republicans and the media would have us believe that Ronald Reagan wasn’t smart enough to be president, that he was an amiable dunce, a dumb actor who played second fiddle to a chimp. Even more so, dangerous enough to start a nuclear war. And … unelectable. Several polls showed him trailing Jimmy Carter by 20-25 points.

    Thank God we didn’t listen to them then. Don’t let those clowns choose the GOP nominee this time around. The stakes are too high.

  • http://theundergroundconservative.wordpress.com pdigaudio

    Any Republican candidate that is open to a tax increase needs to go away.

    Period.

  • streiff

    but the time is not now though I have no doubt that it will present itself in due course.

  • http://phxg.wordpress.com/ phxg

    But can you do the same when Tancredo is the nominee*?

    *After watching his antics in CO first hand who knows what deal with devil he’s made.

  • itrytobenice

    a Bloomberg/Crist ticket and we can show once and for all how very tiny and foolish that particular slice of the electorate is.

  • http://theundergroundconservative.wordpress.com pdigaudio

    My other problem with Daniels was he went out of his way to stick a finger in the eye of social conservatives by in effect telling them to go take a seat in the back of the bus. Daniels was a Bushie; the Bushies have always held SoCons in contempt, using them to get elected but tossing them to the side figuring they had no other party to vote for other than the GOP as it turned Dem-lite.

  • aesthete

    Bush himself was an Evangelical Christian who was strongly against abortion, gay marriage, DADT, and who was, for all intents and purposes, a social conservative. The Bush administration was far more antipathic towards fiscal conservatives and libertarians than toward socons.

  • aesthete

    That policy seems like a great way to drive conservatives away come election season (said as a non-Ron Paul supporter).

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Policies with respect to candidates will be announced prominently on the front page.

  • E Pluribus Unum

    *ALL* the potential candidates seem to have more flaws than advantages?

    No candidate is unflawed, ever. That included Abe Lincoln and George Washington. I believe even Madison. But if you can’t find at least 5 of the 10-12 likely candidates who are serious, quality candidates whose positives far outweigh the negatives, then I don’t understand what you are looking at.

    I also am not sure what the point is in suggesting RedState writers should “sit back” until the field is settled. I submit that this time, as in all elections, it is the role of the *engaged* party people (which would include bloggers) to be heavily involved in vetting candidates. You can expect each candidate to get a nice, thorough anal exam by supporters of other candidates. That is not only fun, but seriously, it’s the kind of sunshine that lets everybody see who is who and what is what.

    Who would you suggest we leave it to? The media? The Party? Let the RNC choose the nominee? Let Bohner and McConnell get to gether and pick somebody?

  • E Pluribus Unum

    *ALL* the potential candidates seem to have more flaws than advantages?

    No candidate is unflawed, ever. That included Abe Lincoln and George Washington. I believe even Madison. But if you can’t find at least 5 of the 10-12 likely candidates who are serious, quality candidates whose positives far outweigh the negatives, then I don’t understand what you are looking at.

    I also am not sure what the point is in suggesting RedState writers should “sit back” until the field is settled. I submit that this time, as in all elections, it is the role of the *engaged* party people (which would include bloggers) to be heavily involved in vetting candidates. You can expect each candidate to get a nice, thorough anal exam by supporters of other candidates. That is not only fun, but seriously, it’s the kind of sunshine that lets everybody see who is who and what is what.

    Who would you suggest we leave it to? The media? The Party? Let the RNC choose the nominee? Let Bohner and McConnell get to gether and pick somebody?

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    I don’t know why supporters of any GOP candidate should be banned, even those the moderators disagree with. This seems to be contrary to the spirit of not disrupting relationships that will be necessary in order to work together for victory in 2012.

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

    In fact, he was a “big government” social conservative.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

  • streiff

    is a nutter makes it very easy. If we get to the point where Ron Paul supporters are necessary to win, I’d just as soon lose.

    To date we haven’t had anyone else quite this crazy run for President on our side.

  • streiff

    as a flag of convenience. He’s hardly a GOP candidate.

  • aesthete

    but it seems to me that Paul’s eccentricity, like Huck and Romney’s cravenness, is not so overwhelming as to cancel out the contributions of RS posters who support them. I don’t have any say in site policies, of course, but I hope that what were reasonable restrictions on Paul supporters in ’08 don’t turn into a ban based solely on candidate support.

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    This sort of divisiveness and infighting kills us every time. I would very much rather have Paul supporters vote for the GOP candidate than Obama. And I say this as someone who has never supported Ron Paul for president, although I do agree with him about following the Constitution and shrinking the size of government.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    I’m asking you to stop.

    I’m asking nicely. Please stop.

  • Sam Gamgee

    I hope that all the site moderators will keep a link to this post handy, and link to it whenever someone violates the spirit of these rules/suggestions. Then, if a person, having been warned once, continues to act inappropriately, a quick banning would be in order.

    The best thing about Red State is the civility that is usually the hallmark of this site, and I appreciate the Directors trying to keep it that way.

  • streiff

    Edwin Edwards vs David Duke election where the bumper stickers said “vote for the crook, it’s important.”

    Paul supporters have no place in the GOP or conservative movement. If they want to vote for our candidate, fine. If they want to stay home, I’m fine with that, too.

  • writeblock

    with just anybody. Reagan had been a well-known movie star, a governor of a major state, a charismatic personality comfortable in his own skin. That kind of politician is rare and comes along once in a lifetime. So it behooves us to think more strategically. We don’t have to betray our conservative principles, but we don’t have to flaunt them either. Meanwhile Ron Brownstein mentions today that Obama will concentrate on the swing states in 2012. He’s not going to fight for SC or AL or TX, he’s going to fight for CO, OH, PA.

  • writeblock

    any two cards can win. But the odds are in your favor if you pull a pair of aces at the get go. We need to play the odds, not start with a lousy hand. It’s not magic. You can’t wish for victory because the guy you favor conforms to your own heart’s desire. You still need to deal with political realities in states like PA and OH.

  • redneck_hippie
  • gekster

    Rudy gearing up for DC run
    from:
    http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/rudy_gearing_up_for_dc_run_ZS2RMoR4850sIr72xti5NL
    via Drudge.

    excerpt:
    “The problem is that even Rudy loyalists think it’s a bad idea. “They think this is crazy,” a source said. “They realize how long the odds are, but they are standing by.”
    Some insiders say it’s a way for Giuliani to stay relevant. “He’s not doing all these morning talk shows because he enjoys the conversation, it is because he wants to stay in the game,” one said.
    “He has previously said he would not run again, but he wants us to think he will,” a different source said. “He’s not being talked about among the Republican contenders, and his ego can’t take that.”"

    You are now free to go s____d.

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    I thought you said Ron Paul supporters were banned for their incivility. Are we not allowed to say anything nice about Paul at all? Heck, I’m not even a supporter.

  • streiff

    I think he is concerned about an incipient beclowning

  • Scope

    I would be in favor of the term ongoing rather than incipient.

  • ohiohistorian

    with the result that the “middle” is actually way Left of any center we would have seen in the 1960′s. The result is that any “middle of the road” Republican is likely to look like McCain, and achieve the same result. What we need is a “right wing” candidate.

    Suggestion is that we put together a “candidate’s position paper” that addresses such things as:
    –Original intent vs. living document
    –Bill of Rights
    –Fiscal discipline
    –Executive power
    –Legislative power
    –Judicial power
    –Right to “privacy” and how derived
    –Legislation that is justified with ONLY the “commerce” clause

  • ohiohistorian

    If you can tolerate the first two, how about this one?

  • ohiohistorian

    Or are you in favor of stifling investigation and the forming your opinions?

    But as far as redistricting, I suspect that Texas still has room for Ron Paul and a couple more like him in the new seats that will be created there.

    I am not a Paul fan, but I will protect his right to speak with my life as I have done for even those who wish to silence him.

  • pamela1631

    From my perspective.

    1. A perspective candidate must have practical working knowledge on running a business and meeting a payroll. At some point in their work history, it has to include a dirty job (the ickier the better).

    2. A perspective candidate must pass a psyche evaluation administered by three different practitioners unknown to them,
    (This hopefully will root out the nut jobs with a God complex or really strange beliefs or habits).

    3. Be able to deliver this:
    http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/jabber/jabberwocky.html
    without the aid of a teleprompter including correct intonations and pacing.

    4. Having various dogs, cats and other assorted critters not bark, growl, hiss, spit, scratch, bite, piss on or stampede the candidate. If the animals react to the candidate, we don’t want or need them.
    The reactions of babies and small children are also a strong indicator.

    5. The final test. Should a candidate cause the hair on the back of your neck to go up, or the feeling of a grave having been walked on, or the “get me the hell out of here now” sensation in their presence, tell them No, Thank you. We will look elsewhere for our representation and leadership.

    Any way you look at it, an unacceptable candidate can hide somethings, or fool some people, but can’t hide everything or fool everyone.

  • ohiohistorian

    because its moderator did not want to intelligently discuss issues and started banning those who were “creationists”. It would be with sadness, but it would happen, that I would leave RedState if you cannot tolerate intelligent discourse on a candidate REGARDLESS of his “kookiness” or your predisposed opinions thereof.

    I am sure that there were people that looked upon James Madison as a kook for writing the Federalist papers and backing that new Constitution thingy. After all, why do we need a tighter confederation than we had before it?

    http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    It’s much smarter for people to take these complaints to the contact page.

  • JSobieski

    The prudence of his status as an elected official holding the position of chair is the issue. There is no Constitutional right to chair a Congressional committee.

    So, lets avoid the straw man hysterics. Otherwise . . .

    I will protect Ron Paul’s right to live with my life.

    I will protect Ron Paul’s right to own property and to be treated equally under the law with my life.

    I will stand up for Ron Paul’s right to free from physicial violence and physically intimidated.

    Oh . . . nobody out there is suppressing Ron Paul in those ways?

    . . . er. . . nevermind.

  • JSobieski

    The prudence of his status as an elected official holding the position of chair is the issue. There is no Constitutional right to chair a Congressional committee.

    So, lets avoid the straw man hysterics. Otherwise . . .

    I will protect Ron Paul’s right to live with my life.

    I will protect Ron Paul’s right to own property and to be treated equally under the law with my life.

    I will stand up for Ron Paul’s right to free from physicial violence and physically intimidated.

    Oh . . . nobody out there is suppressing Ron Paul in those ways?

    . . . er. . . nevermind.

  • ohiohistorian

    The primary should NOT become a PC love-fest. There were plenty out there throwing Obama’s past words on abortion, the Constitution, etc out, but the mellifluous baritone drowned them out.

    Hopefully we can wind up with a candidate who does not need to leave his beliefs in the dust to win. We KNOW that, even if Obama is the candidate, the Dem will campaign as a Constitution-loving, gun-toting, conservative.

  • ohiohistorian

    He called for a tax CHANGE. There is a big difference there. There is a lot of underground money that is flowing (e.g. drugs, bootlegged cigarettes, under-the-table salaries) that should be partially captured, is not, and a consumption tax is the way to capture it.

    That being said, I oppose a VAT as well due to the fact that it favors items which are “assembled in the US” as opposed to MANUFACTURED in the US. Not good for our country.

  • JSobieski

    are premature arguments about people being banned and worst yet, people asking that other people be banned.

    I agree with you in spirit that the word “ban” is simply used too often to avoid arugments. I find it particularly nauseating when ordinary non-management visitors here try to lobby to get other people banned,

    Of course, if you had been here in 2008, you would know that there was such an infestation of bad faith commentors that banning needed to happen. People willing to discuss things in a good faith give and take were fine. Its the folks engaged in verbal hit and run who were given the boot. Otherwise, the site would have become unusable.

    All of that being said, until there is current evidence of overly eager banning, why not just proceed in due course.

    The moderators should not be declared guilty for what they appear they might do any more than we should be banned for what it appears that we might do.

  • JSobieski

    are premature arguments about people being banned and worst yet, people asking that other people be banned.

    I agree with you in spirit that the word “ban” is simply used too often to avoid arugments. I find it particularly nauseating when ordinary non-management visitors here try to lobby to get other people banned,

    Of course, if you had been here in 2008, you would know that there was such an infestation of bad faith commentors that banning needed to happen. People willing to discuss things in a good faith give and take were fine. Its the folks engaged in verbal hit and run who were given the boot. Otherwise, the site would have become unusable.

    All of that being said, until there is current evidence of overly eager banning, why not just proceed in due course.

    The moderators should not be declared guilty for what they appear they might do any more than we should be banned for what it appears that we might do.

  • streiff

    purpose of the site before making pronouncements.

    We are not a debating society. All views and candidates are not equal, in fact some views and candidates are profoundly stupid and deeply disturbed.

    We ban a lot of opinions here out of hand and we offer no apology for doing so.

  • ohiohistorian

    Comments without evidence or reasoning are really what are the part of this whole exchange that I dislike. I come here to discuss and to LEARN, not to be inundated with the latest “is not/is too” discussion.

  • ohiohistorian

    McCain was the darling of the media, gaining all sorts of approbation, until he was nominated. At that point, the Establishment Republicans were ecstatic, and the Media went away to support Obama, just like Colin Powell. Establishment Republicans and the Media should be shunned until after the primaries.

  • ohiohistorian

    Guess I don’t know what that is; yes, we went for Obama (what a mistake) but it was a lack of McCain enthusiasm, not Obama love. Look at the returns for Obama and Kerry; they were NOT that far apart. However, those for McCain and Bush were.

    We now have an R governor (the guy who forced a “balanced budget” on Clinton), an R legislature, a new R senator, and mostly R state-wide offices (although I do admit that DeWine was not a good choice).

    In PA, Phila and Pitt drive the state. Not so in Ohio; we can be driven by the urbans, but the suburbans/rurals still have the hand when we go together. We did also get rid of the SOS that violated Federal law in order to protect ballot-box stuffing in the urban areas.

  • concap

    The left got McCain nominated using the media, knowing full well he had no chance of winning.

    Watch who the left media backs or lets slide on the right in 12 and hope that candidate is not the one you have carrying the ball.

  • yea37ey

    Gentleman and Ladies.Your call for civility and polite yet robust debate is welcome news.I do however have a few questions.Will this new civility apply to posters like Eric and Moe?How about the posters who go balistic at the very mention of John McCains name?Do you really want a polite yet robust debate or do you just want the posters to rubber stamp everything the main commentators say?As a new poster,I WILL NOT just sit by and say nothing for a few weeks to discover what will anger a poster and what will not.And I wouldn’t want other posters to do the same to me.In closing ,I will be polite and friendly to my fellow posters and will engage in polite debateand not insult or call names.I expect Eric and the others to do the same.

  • Joshua Persons

    -Spaces after punctuation would greatly improve the readability of your posts
    -Learning how “Reply To” works helps people understand what you’re talking about. I doubt you meant to reply to carolina’s post about President Obama’s agenda
    -Sorry, but just as with any other social group, it takes time to build trust and respect on RS.
    -Moe and Erick (it’s spelled with a K) are part of Redstate’s official leadership. Erick is basically the head of the site.

  • Scope

    Erick Erickson is the big guy here, offering up Redstate for your enjoyment and pleasure, with the site rules that only he has the decision to make. It would be presumptious on your part to expect anything from Erick. When you understand that, you have a chance at surviving in this community. We tend to show the Directors and the moderators the respect they deserve.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    Call it very idle curiosity.

  • d_lamar

    Let’s nominate a conservative who actually believes in the US Constitution, and let the independents decide between that person and an avowed marxist.

  • earlgrey

    I am reading some complaints about the moderators and directors (and other posters). Some people are complaining about their behavior. Things are going to get heated and yes sometimes even the moderators may seem out of line, but let’s just deal with it.

    This isn’t a duel. No one is going to die. I have been rebuked on this site a few times. Sometimes I deserved, and sometimes I don’t think I did, but you just roll. Take a break like Aaron is from Red State, but let’s try to develop a thicker skin and try to be the tough guys conservatives are supposed to be.

  • writeblock

    describing both Romney and Huckabee as “far right.” They are neither. Huckabee is a social conservative but a tax and spender. Romney’s a moderate.

  • gekster

    I liked the part where Rudies just talking smack so he can stay “relevant”.

  • http://www.aitfoam.com deadreckoning

    fill the air with meaningless pleasantries just to get along. No, I was not intending to reccommend a “PC love-fest” during the primaries. (I’m doing my best not to conjure up a mental image of that phrase). We should and need to vet any and all candidates during the primary and stop at nothing to determine where they stand on issues. It’s how we go about it that makes the difference to me. The candidates better be able to speak their minds truthfully so we have a clear understanding of who they are and decide on their positions if they be for us or against us. I’m tired of being lied to either by a candidate or by their opponent.

    Incindiary statements and unfounded accusations are what I was referring to. The left does this well and has to to keep their base riled up and uninformed. I despise politics, the way that many politicians ply their trade. I have come to appreciate this site for the mostly rational views and the gift that many posters have for communicating their thoughts.

  • Return to Revolution
  • Scope

    It may just be my imagination, but especially with some newer or infrequent commentors, they are trying to push the envelope as far as they can with their haughty comments about the Directors and the moderators, up to and including personal attacks on them. You’ve been here longer than me, wasn’t there a time when the longer term regulars showed some respect and appreciation for their efforts? Some seem to think that there appearance here has become the greatest thing since sliced bread, and, how ever did the site survive without their profound knowledge that we all just don’t get. One of the most sickening comments, that I saw, was someone suggesting that Neil Stevens be ignored because he is obnoxious. I think that person is still a member. Go back up and read some of the comments right here on this diary to see what I am saying. I agree that being trigger happy is not a good thing, but, with some comments, I would be getting out the AK47, so to speak. The more they get away with, the bolder some are getting.

  • jamesmackey

    That limited government is not possible when we’re fighting two wars and have troops stationed all over the world! We’ll see when the rubber hits the road who the real small government people are. And I’m afraid it’s not Sarah Palin. She has said defense should be taken off the table and we should put Iran in the crosshairs. Another war.

    http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2011/01/05/tea-party-challenge/

  • writeblock

    as those cities go, though Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are always a problem. Nevertheless the right GOP candidate can still take the state. It now has a Republican governor and a Republican senator. Corbett is less of a conservative than Toomey–but he got more of the vote. Toomey just barely squeaked by–and this was a wave year. The problem here is social conservatism. Independents are clearly turned off by a strong social conservative pitch. But a good fiscal conservative can take this state every time–as Corbett has just shown. In the polls Rudy beat all comers here by double digits and was ahead of Obama and Hillary by around 20 points throughout the primary season in 2008. He was even ahead after he dropped out. Not that it mattered much that he was terrifically popular in one of the largest battleground states in the Union. It was the smaller states–IA and NH and SC–that mattered most. The process is nuts and is no way to pick a candidate for a general election.

    I can tell you now–NH will go for Romney. It’s next door to MA and Romney’s their guy–unless McCain runs again. McCain is their quintessential candidate. IA will go to Huckabee since it’s well stocked with evangelicals. Neither state will be indicative of anything at all as far as the rest of the country goes. It’s a dumb way to choose a candidate. If we had any sense we’d nominate somebody who’s win a few swing states and a few blue states.

  • cptbman

    What’s a birfter? I assume you mean someone who doesn’t believe that Obama was born in the U.S. I certainly hope you don’t mean someone who would like Obama to produce his actual birth certificate (you know, the one with the name of the hospital and delivering doctor on it). Someone like Chris Matthews on Hardball (a kooky nutball of a right winger if such a one ever existed). Does the thought of being criticized by the left wing scare you from demanding the truth?

  • Scope

    When the Tea Party people discover that it has been taken over by the Ron Paul supporters, it will die. That includes the Tea Party Patriots, and even some of the Glen Beck backed, We Surround Them organization. No matter how you slice the pie, once enough realize what your real goals are, you will be as good as yesterdays newspaper. The good news is that the most of the original Tea Party supporters will form there own group, that will support all three planks of conservatism. Not many are willing to join with a movement that is on a national security suicide mission, and who want nothing more than to send any and all SoCons to the back of the bus. Nope, we don’t do the back of the bus. The all around conservatives will send you guys to the back of the bus.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    This is not negotiable.

    It’s also laughable that you’d think Chris Matthews lends legitimacy to such a whacked out cause.

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    Has anybody ever posted a diary about what opinions are out of line? Or do you just have to hang around for a while to figure what views are off limits?

  • jamesmackey

    Mission is continuing to borrow money from China to live beyond our means. Admiral Mike Mullen Chairman of the Joint Chiefs says our debt is the biggest National Security threat we face.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2010/06/25/joint-chiefs-chair-says-debt-is-the-greatest-threat-to-national-security/

    The days when we can keep troops stationed all over the world are coming to an end. Defense is a ripe target for cutting. In 2009 our defense budget accounted for 48 percent of the worlds defense spending. Almost more than the rest of the world combined. Time to face reality. We are in serious trouble financially and something is going to give sooner rather than later. As someone old enough to have watched this on TV all I can say is, Ike had it right.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

    New homes were being built with bomb shelters. The Russians had gotten to space first. The cold war was very very cold yet Eisenhower used his farewell address to the nation to warn the American people about the dangers of the military industrial complex.

  • Scope

    because that has all you have done for the last few days?

  • E Pluribus Unum

    but of you do want to use that analogy, then the primary voters need to know, before we bet, what all the players are holding. That means info, chopsticks, trial balloons, investigating facts and claims, learning how closely their conservative talk matches their historical walk.

    I don’t want surprises when the cars are laid down.

  • Scope

    I will say you are a rabid Ron Paul supporter. Haven’t done the research, but, your numbers as to the US defense spending in 2009 are suspect. Can you provide any links to facts to backup that number?

  • http://www.redstate.com/tnjim TNJim

    Typo perhaps? I hope so.

  • Bill S

    And such a thing has been attempted in the past. We are working on another attempt. If it works out, it’ll go on the front page and hopefully someplace a bit more permanent.

    But honestly, we can be as subjective as we want…as we’ve had to point out on numerous occasions to those who accuse us of SUPPRESSING THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!11!1!, this is private property and we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

  • Bill S

    With birthers, we point, mock and ban. It’s a very simple formula.

    For more info, read this one from Erick.

  • jamesmackey

    But I have been a registered and active Republican for 39 years.

    http://armscontrolcenter.org/policy/securityspending/articles/fy09_dod_request_global/

    The three stools of conservatism. Economic, Defense. Cultural

    Being for a defense second to none doesn’t mean a militaristic foreign policy. Ronald Reagan used the military less than any other modern President.

    http://reason.com/archives/2007/05/09/revising-ronald-reagan

  • Bill S
  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • http://redmerrimack.blogspot.com/ charliebravoNH

    It is good to see that Redstate is ready before the primary starts to get tough with “hired guns” and demand full disclosure.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Funny how it’s upward, never downward, when the rhetorical tricks have to come into play.

  • gekster

    “In 2009 our defense budget accounted for 48 percent of the worlds defense spending”

    You forgot to mention the US is respnsible for 90% of the freedom in the world.
    Who else can claim that.

  • Scope

    but I want some solid info on that 48%. Since the Chinese have seemingly tried to surpass us in defense spending, I want to know where his number comes from.. Make you a bet, if there is any info he is going on, it won’t be any credible source.

  • Scope
  • joayn
  • joayn
  • gekster

    how many times a country WASN’T attacked because our troops were there.
    Immediatly I can think of SK

  • aesthete

    Another interesting chart from Cato (GDP of our allies in blue, of our potential rivals in red):

    The Cato Institute’s Sept 2010 report on military spending, and a nice summary of their takes on military spending (sans the progressive diatribe in the last paragraph).

    Given our size and commitments, there’s nothing wrong with us having a large military budget. However, the US and its NATO allies already spend out 3 out of every 4 dollars spent by nation-states on militaries. Even if the boogeymen of China, Russia, N Korea, and Iran all waged war on us at once, our NATO allies and us outspend them more than 6 to 1 — and we have several advantages (logistics, ability to ramp up spending, superior training, overwhelming air and sea power, a first rate military) that those countries do not have. If that is the case, then clearly it is not a lack of funds that are the problem: it is the objectives of policymakers that are out of whack. The military’s budget could use a trimming, but this trimming should take place *after* we drop our policy goals that have nothing to do with the security and sovereignty of the US (“peacekeeping missions”, nation-building, and the like should be the first to get axed). The US Armed Forces have done an outstanding job of protecting us, but they can do an even better one if we rid ourselves of the albatrosses that prevent us from having effective national security, and if we relocated funds towards areas in need of them (such as training and equipment for infantrymen and corpsmen).

  • joayn

    One thing I would like to add is when debating someone regarding their preferred candidate, recognize the fact that after a point, sometimes people’s minds will not be changed no matter how much you try and just move on. Agree to disagee.

    I don’t know about anybody else, but reading the comments in this type of situation is very boring and uninformative. Some people here can carry this off, but others – not so much.

  • SoFiMil

    Not sure if the guy/gal is still around, but just to be sure he/she isn’t how about a “double-tap”?

    Ooops. I mean a double-blam..

  • aesthete

    Through my linking of Cato documents, I don’t mean to imply that I agree with all, or most, of their policy prescriptions as they pertain to defense: they were simply the most convenient reputable source of information for this data.

    Since I saw some talk of China surpassing us, let me point out that it would, literally, be impossible for them to even match our military expenditures without spending around half of their own GDP on military expenditure, never mind surpassing it: to put that in context, the US’ military budget in WWII as a percent of GDP was around 30%, meaning that to match our rather leisurely (for our economy) 5% of GDP, the ChiComs would have to have a dedicated wartime economy.

    Lastly (and in the interest of fair play), I should note that some of those numbers are considered erroneous by some academics. Whatever the exact details, the fact remains that the US far outspends other countries’ conventional militaries severalfold.

  • Finrod

    Every time I see things start to get too heated or get off the rails here, the directors come through and set things right. That’s why this is the best conservative site on the web.

  • kestrel

    going to go back and check the validity of those 666,000 new voters who registered in the few months before Obama’s election? Is he going to do something about the 200,000 new voters at that time whom even the lawless SOS Brunner admitted had ?discrepancies? on their registrations, though she refused “to provide the county election boards with the state voter registration information necessary for the cross-checks.”? Do your new R officials intend to backtrack and clean this up? What are they saying about this?

    Thinking about it reminds me of a task for the new Republican U.S. congress, a task necessitated by Mr. Obama’s AWOL DoJ: Close the loophole in the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) of 2002 that allowed Brunner to thumb her nose at the law.

    Here is the background that explains the loophole: “Responding to a suit brought by the Ohio Republican Party, a federal district court and the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals both ordered Brunner to comply with the law by providing the information… The (U.S.) Supreme Court, though, overturned the order…(ruling) that a private party such as the state GOP had no ?standing? to bring such a suit, because HAVA provides that ‘the Attorney General may bring a civil action’ to enforce the law but fails to provide for anyone else to do so.” (from the article linked above). As Jaded would say, “Stinks, no?”

    BTW, A big thanks to new Judiciary Chairman Lamar Smith for putting Attorney General Eric Holder on notice less than 24 hours into the new Congress. See GOP House leadership acts fast on Black Panthers. Smith to Holder: You’re welcome.

  • kestrel
  • Scope

    but it’s from the CATO Institute, a libertarian think tank. Since I said I would try to open my mind to the libertarians, it requires me to stop there, except for something I must include. The libertarians want the US out of any conflicts, most defense spending, and, believe that the US has had the position of the US as being Imperialists, aggressors, and poking our noses where we don’t belong. Other than that, your charts are informative, I think.

  • Scope

    make such gains, which are seeming to be increasingly greater than the US, with spending far less money on their efforts. They may very well be spending smarter. I have no problem with redirecting the US defense spending into smarter spendiing, however, I don’t agree that we should be cutting the defense budget, simply to cut overall spending. I wonder where CATO got their spending numbers with respect to China. They are not open or willing to share their info on much of anything. We’ve had more than one surprise from China in the last year or two, that it seems no one was aware of until it became a reality.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    I very rarely disagree with you, aesthete, so I may need to restate this after I’ve read the full report from Cato (busy night). I take issue, however, with the notion that our 6:1 advantage over potential adversaries is unnecessary or overkill.

    Let’s imagine that the US cut military spending drastically. Our piece of the pie shrinks dramatically, and the others grow as a consequence.

    There is a tipping point where China, Russia, et al would gain a significant strategic advantage by boosting military spending. Right now, they’re so outgunned that it would make little sense for them to increase spending dramatically. If, however, they were no longer likely to be demolished in a direct conflict (because we stand down so significantly between now and then), then the incentive exists to deal with us militarily. (If we don’t get our fiscal house in order, this will be an unavoidable outcome, which is why entitlement programs pose a national security threat.)

    It all depends on what is best for their interests, and if we capitulate on defense, they are likely to deal with our relationship in a negative nonzero-sum way, rather than economically, in our current, positive nonzero-sum solution.

    That’s not to say that we can’t cut military spending. We can and should, but we should only cut those line items that are pork, neither requested by the military nor helpful to their mission.

    (This was typed on my iPhone while waiting at the pharmacy. Typos are due to the constraints of the technology. Any flaws in reasoning are my own.)

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

    This isn’t rocket science. I’ve written about this before at length. Medicare Part D? No Child Left Behind? Campaign Finance Reform?

    Seriously, the fact that W was a big government conservative isn’t exactly in contention.

  • Scope

    on world wide defense spending showing the 48%. The CATO Institute is a libertarian think tank that supports a position of non-interventionism. I’m not sure where they got their info on China’s spending. The Chinese keep their cards close to their chest. I’d be willing to bet that between China and Russia, the numbers may only be a guess, or they were given false info. There have been far to many advances in the Chinese military and defense spending to bear out the small percentage on the charts. May just be me thought that questions them.

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679
  • JSobieski

    (1) Its the matchups that matter. 19 guys with box cutters shut down US airspace for more than a week. Its not like the Chinese would ever just line up all of the forces and we would line up our forces, etc.

    The critical matchup is the straights to Taiwan. The Chinese aren’t trying to project force on the other side of the planet, we are. Moreover, the Chinese really only have the Russians and the US to worry about, and they put all of their resources in the same place.

    The US has assets in Asia-Pacific. We also have assets in the Middle East, Europe, etc.

    Its simply not a point to point comparison. How much of our defense spending actually relates to China or what China could do? Conversely, virtually everything the Chinese spend are things that would be involved should war break out over Taiwan or Korea.

    What percentage of China’s spending relates to us vs. what percentage of our spending relates to China?

    (2) It costs far more for the US to build skyscrapers, bridges, and other projects. Why is that? We have higher safety standards, we have workers who get paid more money, etc.

    When you have all of that Western civilization as an overhead expense, a dollar simply doesn’t go as far. Its true with all sorts of projects, private and public—and the military is no exception.

    (3) We need to have a decisive technological advantage since everyone knows a Western nation is not going to tolerate the death/casualties that wont even make the Chinese blink. If they kill 1 of us for every 10 we kill of them—we lose. So we need to have enough of advantage to make that ratio 100 to 1.

    (4) We spend on developing technology—its always cheeper just to steal the other guy’s stuff.

    I am not in disagreement with the proposition that military spending needs to be looked at. I just think comparing money spent is incredibly flawed.

    The US is actually responsible for 100% of the freedom that exists in the world. We could try some gamesmanship to see if other advanced nations will carry more of the freight, but that is a dangerous hand of poker.

  • Jack_Savage

    By some crazy, insane stroke of luck, tax cuts spurred growth and federal revenues actually *increased*…

    http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2007/01/~/media/Images/Reports/2007/bg2001/chart2_lg.ashx

  • Bill S
  • http://www.2010blog.net jsanzone

    And will settle for Romney.

    I don’t think I could vote for Palin, even in the general (and I know I’m not supposed to say that).

  • aesthete

    Appreciate the comments and points made. As alluded to above, I think that many of CATO’s policy prescriptions above are based on optimistic or flawed premises: for example, I think that they are blind to the perils of a law enforcement-only approach to counterterrorist operations, far too optimistic about the potential for global trade to mitigate aggression, and blithe to the threats posed by non-state actors. I make no bones about the fact that I’m not libertarian on defense. The reason that I posted was because 1) they were the first available and reputable source for the 48% stat (which some where wondering about and which I don’t think is the relevant direct comparison for the points mentioned by JSob), and because 2) they had some valid points concerning the efficacy of “nation-building”, “failed states” and the lack of correlation between them and terrorism exported by the nation, and the fact that other factors are much more relevant when dealing with small states that stand against our interests than the size of our military budget.

    This bears repeating, because too many just refuse to believe it: China and Russia are not a threat to us, our allies, or our interests as they stand today, and will not be in the near-, mid-, or long-term. While China has been playing with global “soft” power recently (to very little practical effect), its main interests that conflict with ours have always been regional: the acquisition of Taiwan, possible aggression against Japan, and dominance in Southeastern Asia. None of those objectives is possible for China: in the first two cases, amphibious invasions of developed countries with first-rate armed forces and paramilitaries are very difficult even without our involvement (read on amphibious invasions and on why Normandy was a success while most others were not); with our involvement (specifically our naval and air dominance), they become an impossibility in any practical sense for China, and an attempt by China would easily garner the 100:1 Chinese losses/American losses ratio mentioned by JSob. The last possibility would also be extremely unlikely in a political, economic, or diplomatic sense: even under Obama, when China tried asserting some power over these states, there was significant pushback from those states: even communist Vietnam and Laos stood against it. Our allies’ economies in the region are extremely dependent on the US and Western interests, so it’s a no-go there, as well. An aggressive land war on China’s part in SW Asia would result in near-unanimous opposition to it and would, again, expose it to our overwhelming air and naval power. Russia is a decrepit state with an incredibly poor army: it barely won the conflict with Georgia, and another war would embarrass it further. We don’t need a stronger military to deal with Russia, as our military is more than strong enough as is; we need more assertive diplomacy that treats them like the third-rate military power that they are, and more economic/diplomatic ties to Eastern Europe to ally justified concerns on their end.

    To touch briefly on the idea that China and Russia will plow ahead while we stand still, it is not necessary for us to be standing still for us to continue to advance and be competitive in the area of tech and equipment. More importantly, straight comparisons of equipment and tech are faulty; both of those are only important insofar as they are capable of being developed, manufactured, and used on the battlefield. All of the branches of the US armed forces use “outdated” equipment precisely because it is gear that, ATM, is more cost-effective and reliable than newer tech, and manufacturing it is easy. China and Russia (especially Russia) don’t hold a candle to our force projection capabilities and military infrastructure (both that already in place and that which can potentially be put in place). The US could cut back enormously on its military expenditures without affecting its monopoly on quick, overwhelming projection of conventional force. The perceived gains to be made from either country increasing its military expenditures are more dependent on how the US’ involvement in world affairs is perceived than on our current military budget: IOW, our closing of a set of unnecessary airstrips in Central Africa and the Pacific or a base in Afghanistan won’t affect Chinese military expenditures or the decision to go to war with one of our regional allies; our perceived interest (or disinterest) in the relationship does. Our military budget (even our military budget in the region) is only part of their internal calculus trying to figure out how interested we are in protecting our allies and regional interests.

    To summarize my positions lest anyone get the wrong impression, I believe that our presence in sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America should be minimal to non-existant, that our presence in Western Europe should be massively reduced (and our presence in Eastern Europe potentially increased), that many of our bases in the Far East and the Pacific are redundant, that we should not engage in “nation building” (“nation repairing”, as we did in Germany, Japan, and Europe through the Marshall Plan is acceptable), and that we should not be engaged in “peacekeeping missions”or struggles that do not involve our security or that of our allies in any way, shape, or form. Our presence in Iraq is fine, but our presence in Afghanistan should focus on removing terrorist enclaves as they appear and be restructured around SF and drone missions, not on building the country’s infrastructure, occupying the country, or establishing and preserving democratic structures.

  • acat

    Are you familiar with the terms Jacksonian, Hamiltonian, Wilsonian, or Jeffersonian? From Meade’s writings on how various past presidents have implemented foreign policy?

    http://www.lts.com/~cprael/Meade_FAQ.htm

    I’m much more of a Jacksonian, in that I want the U.S. out of foreign entanglements, true. However….

    I recognize that the world is not a safe place – never was, never will be – and I want our armed forces to be the best in the world because one way to achieve peace is to be the baddest of the bad… that is, the hardest to defeat…. and therefore the least likely to be attacked.

    A. Cat

  • aesthete

    and also consider myself closer to being Jacksonian than any of the others. I simply see no need for much of what we’re doing under the auspices of national security, like nation building and peacekeeping missions. I also see no point in protecting wasteful military spending, or spending on things that do not provide returns (as is the case with a good portion of what is labelled as “military spending”). I see much of our establishment (including a chunk of our military establishment among field officers) as being much closer to the Wilsonian branch.

  • http://www.buckforcolorado.com bjwilson83

    I’ll wait for that diary.

  • nilram

    Do you remember 2006? It seems like candidates were declaring in December of that year. (Probably not, but it sure felt like it?) So I don’t really understand the disbelief. And besides how many of us can relate to this cartoon:

    Come on admit it.
    :)

  • writeblock

    seems speculative, without much foundation. It gets things wrong by calling Romney and Huckabee far-righters, equating “far-right” with social conservatism rather than with any conservative radicalism such as the birther phenomenon. Romney is fairly moderate in his views and Huckabee is fiscally liberal. Rudy, for one thing, is more fiscally conservative than either–so it’s wrong to imply he’s not on the right. To imply he’s a liberal when he fought liberalism all his life is pretty ludicrous as well. Yeah, he’s anathema on the social issues–but not when it comes to fiscal responsibility, law and order, support for the military, opposition to Muslim radicalism, strict interpretation of the Constitution. He’s not perfect, but he’s no bland go-along type of the sort that populates the GOP establishment.

    Bush wasn’t a perfect conservative either, not by a long shot. He was loved by the social conservatives and was strong on the military and on terrorism, but weak on immigration and fiscally improvident. Nor did he really ever understand what conservatives get worked up about. His dad pinned a medal on Teddy–and W. fell into easy comradeship with that whole crowd. He never saw the need to fight the media the way, for instance, Rudy would have done as president.

    As for the article’s innuendo about Rudy’s need to appear relevant–that’s ridiculous. Rudy doesn’t need attention–he’s already a household name. Only Sarah has his kind of first name recognition across the country. Say Chris or Haley or Mitch or Mike and nobody will know who you’re talking about. Say Rudy and there’s an instant flash of recognition and remembrance in households everywhere. So the piece is nonsense. If Rudy wants to run, he’ll have his ready-made fans–and money will roll in. His problem is not name-recognition or the need to appear relevant. It’s having to deal with one wing of the party that’s strong in some small red states but weak in big swing states. Getting the nod is the hard thing; defeating Obama would be easy however, given his reputation as a real reformer and dauntless leader.

  • gekster

    As no one wants him for President.
    Hence the talk that he “might” run so someone, anyone, will pay attention to him.
    The ego thing he’s got.

  • writeblock

    Huck. They fear Rudy, Barbour, Daniels and Romney. Anyone of them could defeat Obama–though they’d had fun depicting Barbour as the racist Southern sheriff from that populated old movies with Sydney Poitier. He’d be most vulnerable to charges of racism. Yet his competence and sophistication would nevertheless be formidable and could catch on.

    If Romney starts to pick up steam, their media cohorts will do what they did with Rudy–pose questions on issues sure to weaken him. They’ll suddenly get real interested in the Romneycare–lessening his appeal on the right accordingly–just as with Rudy they brought up abortion endlessly. Daniels would be tough to smear or trip up. His personality’s too bland to grab hold of–sort of like the trouble they’re having trying to demonize Boehner. They’ll try anyway.

    Besides this they’ll cross over to vote in open GOP primaries, given that Obama is not likely to be opposed in their own primaries. That’s still another way they lessen our effectiveness.

  • writeblock

    They loathe her most of all. With her it’s not strategic, it’s personal.

  • writeblock

    but you get my point.

  • writeblock

    to win. We need to take some purple states and maybe one or two blues. We shouldn’t worry overly much what the people in red states want. They’re not our problem. The battleground states are our problem.

  • writeblock

    more than the next politician. Anybody aspiring to leadership for anything at all needs a good dollop of ego. Modest guys we don’t need. Another gentlemanly type we don’t need. What we need is a warrior.

    As for nobody voting for him–that might be true in IA or NH, not in NJ or PA. Which are the more important states in the next election do you think?

  • gekster

    Which he wont get.
    And ego leads you into falshoods.

  • writeblock

    I like Boehner–just as I liked Bush. But he drives me up a wall with his need to appear fair-minded, etc. Pelosi was an effective leader precisely because she was ruthless. She got things done–even if what she achieved was disastrous. Nice guys finish last. Yeah, Bush may be treated more kindly by history–but he left his party in a shambles. Give me an SOB with a big ego for a leader any day.

  • gekster

    He doesn’t have an ego, but he needs one.
    I think that explains it all.
    From both you and him.

  • writeblock

    good leaders tend not to be saints. We don’t need another nice guy. Politeness gets us only so far with the left. Sooner or later we’ve got to crack some skulls and show some grit.. I’m sick of the nice guys. I want a warrior next time around–even if it’s Sarah with all her negatives. At least she’s a fighter. Which is ironic when you think of it. McCain was supposed to have embodied the military spirit–but when the chips were down he folded like a wimp.

  • Scope

    that I picked up from American Thinker today. It fits like a glove to the discussion we’ve been having on the topic of our military/national defense spending. One of the things I mentioned above, was with respect to the accuracy of China’s military/national defense spending. The article cites the fact that in 2006, the numbers released from Beijing were actually double what they reported. I believe it also addresses in small measure that they apparently spend smarter. He also talks about the “surprises,” like their stealth bomber, that our Navy intelligence were woefully wrong on.

    If I read you correctly, you believe that our Naval fleet is far superior to anything China, or any other country has. From some newer developments coming out of China, it may be possible that our fleet just may be as good as sitting ducks, though we may have the technology to counteract any attacks. It’s like the race to the top between us and them. With the deep cuts mentioned in the article, I am not banking on our superior strength unless we take the threats seriously. I’m not convinced that this administration, and Gates, take the threats seriously.

    I agree with acat, even if we don’t use what we have, I still also want to be the “baddest of the bad,” and keep peace where ever possible through strength.

    It has been my view that every recent Democrat President has gone after our defense spending first. When we went into Iraq, as Rumsfield said at the time, “you go to war with what you have, not what you wished you had.” From all my reading, Clinton “hollowed out” our military. As I like to say, the Liberals think that we can remain strong in the world with an array of water pistols, and big red reset buttons. I doubt many would not accept that we are now a laughingstock to world leaders. Obama has made us into the yellow rubber duckie sitting in the pond at the fair, waiting for the next quarter to take a shot at us. Not comforting atol.

    We have been all on the same page with cutting spending on everything and anything that we can. I would much prefer to go after the many many redundant federal programs that Fred Thompson pointed out in his White Papers. I would love nothing more than to go after the number of Federal employees, yet, Obama had hired an additional 600,000 in his first year. I am all in for entitlement reform, and, I am not that many years away from collecting on those promises made to me by the federal government. I get sick when I hear some say that they want what they were promised, and, be danged with the rest of my fellow citizens. It’s all about me.

    Finally, the last sentence in the article says it all. Our government is “seemingly more focused on soft core video tapes produced 5 years ago,” then on our military assets. I agree with someone that wrote an article about the firing of Navy Captain Owen Honors, he was the first casualty of the repeal of DADT. The video tapes were already addressed 5 years ago, and Captain Honors abidded by the warning. Now, just as the Enterprise is set to go on a mission, a military member with a flawless record, other than the tapes, is relieved from his duties. Pitiful.

  • Scope

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/01/the_changing_military_balance.html

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    When I wrote my response last night, I had not seen your caveat about Cato. At any rate, I can’t envision our military standing still. I am concerned with the idea of standing down, though. I think that Obama’s refusal to use the word victory regarding our current military ventures, for example, is ridiculous but in keeping with the way that he views the world (the vision of the anointed, to use Sowell’s phrase). The idea that we can’t declare victory shows weakness, which I think.

    I’m not attributing any of these ideas to you, by the way, just sort of rambling. I do think that we run the risk of moving into the territory occupied by Obama and the antiwar left when we make similar vision-of-the-anointed arguments, which the antiwar right (eg Paul) often do (antiwar right is a ridiculous phrase, bur I’m not sure how else to tag those on our side who are overly optimistic about the human condition and believe that we can, as a species, rise above war).

  • tennwriter

    This pretty much describes most Libertarians.

  • tennwriter

    I’m not wanting to disrespect Erick. So we’ll set that part of your complaint aside.

    In my particular niche, I’ve been called ‘genius’ and ‘best I’ve met in thirty years’. So I have a fan or two who will speak up for my greatness to some newbie. But right now, I’m honestly not trying very hard, and if the newbie went based on what he had seen, and not on the history he was not around for, he might justifiably think to himself ‘hey, this guy ain’t that great’ or at best ‘this guy is okay, and maybe I’ll give him a chance cause his friends say he’s really cool.’

    I’ve heard Redstate is great, but a day or two after I arrive, your mod is taking the lot of you back of the woodshed. And I find myself agreeing with him.

    And if I want to impress this newbie in my niche, I need to up my game.

  • aesthete

    “rise above” war, I simply don’t believe that the way we’re going about it is particularly effective or well-advised. Obviously, there’s such a thing as too much of a good thing: if we were spending 50% of our GDP on the military during peacetime, for example, it would be unquestionable that we would be spending far too much money on the military. The question is, how much is too much (and that’s a question without a clear answer). There is also the issue of spending smarter, and of what conflicts we engage ourselves in: with respect to the various wonderk?nds who’ve thought up the ideas, failed states, poverty, and other areas that breed poor quality of life are *not* the proximate causes of terrorism. We cannot usher in democracy to a country that has neither had it in large measure nor sees it as something to aspire to (or which does not meet the basic prerequisites for a citizenry that can handle the responsibility). Our resources are not limitless, and the fact that we are misusing them so badly due to mission creep and general misuse is evidence to me that we should be reducing both the scope of our foreign policy (in particular, our pathetic involvement in peacekeeping and nation-building) and our spending on specific areas that have not provided an adequate ROI.

    It is no less the vision of the anointed to assume that the very character of foreign nations can be changed easily and justly through the plans of a select few, and I will note that plenty of the left is pro-war under those premises (just look at their calls for the military to go on junkets to every broken African country out there). The difference between protecting our interests and acting as perpetual do-gooders has unfortunately been blurred as of late, and the right has accepted many of the premises of the pro-war left as their own. How many Republicans positively cite JFK on foreign policy: the area where JFK blundered most badly on? How many Republicans and conservatives righteously thundered on the legitimacy of UN mandates when advocating for action in Iraq? How many conservatives argued for war in Afghanistan and Iraq based on the atrocities occurring in the country, rather than the threats that they posed to America’s security or sovereignty? How many claimed that it would be easy, that we would be welcomed as liberators, etc? The unrealistic cost/benefit analyses and moral arguments for war are not Jacksonian or conservative; they are part and parcel of the pro-war left.

    We can (and should, IMO) have a less cumbersome and more efficient military, but mostly I am concerned with the sheer number of endgoals that the military is tasked with: from providing aid to third-world countries to interloping in disputes between parties that are intractable enemies, is there any task under heaven that the US military has not been tasked with? The mission creep and idealism that has permeated both policymakers and the institutions themselves are a disturbing trend, and evidence that we need to evaluate what our military should be used for (and what conflicts we involve ourselves in). Once we rid ourselves of that mission creep, I believe that we will have a more efficient and effective military that will require less funding. Generally speaking, the idea that the military is meant to “fix” rather than to destroy is one that has had extremely pernicious effects, and which has proven seductive to some conservatives.

  • JSobieski

    that gets drowned out on this topic.

    Category #1: Code Pink. So many leftists oppose the US reflexively. The Code Pink types clearly hate America and they get the most attention in terms of anti-war, These people think the US is the cause of most of the problems in the world.

    Conservatives wisely dismiss these folks as total fools.

    Category #2: Isolationists. The next most publicized category of “anti-war” folks are the Buchanon wing. This school of thought concludes is grounded largely in isolationism. They don’t have America, but they also seem to discount the fact that the US has a lot of interests abroad, and that many “local problems” actually do involve US interests given our status in a global economy. People like Buchanon opposed Gulf War I, Gulf War II, Iraq, etc.

    Conservatives acknowledge that we cannot be the world’s policeman, but wisely see that the US does have real interests across the globe that need protecting. If doing so furthers the course of freedom in the world, all the better.

    Category #3: Cost/Benefit Analysis. These folks get no attention relative to the two groups above. Some conservatives lump in these folks with group 2 above, which is inaccurate.

    Someone is this category acknowledges that the US has important interests in virtually every part of the globe. However, having legitimate interests and a moral justification for intervention doesn’t necessary make intervention a good idea.

    The problem is that debating the Category #1 and #2 types, essentially robs the public of the Category #3 discussion.

    I support our troups in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    I support our goals (i.e. the mission) in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    However, I am skeptical that the long term fruits of those conflicts as we are currently conducting ourselves will be worth the costs for reasons that are specific to those places.

    Unfortunately, the public never really got to that point in the analysis because 25% of the country insanely thinks the army is evil and are really loud about it. Another 10% of the country talks about how we should stayed neutral in WWII.

    Conservatives rightly reject that 35%, but I think it causes many to overlook other options.

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

    The point I was making is that W’s administration was fiscally irresponsible. Obviously the “Bush Tax Cuts” were a good thing, even without spending cuts. However, his administration oversaw one of the largest binges in unnecessary spending and expansion of government in modern history. Clearly not in the Reagan tradition.

  • aesthete

    Some people forget that there is a strong progressive tradition of supporting war (when pressed, most of the “anti-war” crowd is not so much anti-war as it is anti-America or anti-American interests, positing that an America defending its interests in engaging in colonialism or somesuch nonsense) which I’d say would fall under two categories:

    1) There are progressives who believe that we should involve ourselves in struggles where there is a great deal of atrocity going on. This group is generally part of the center-left, rather than the far-left (see Bill Clinton and Tony Blair), and sees American foreign policy as an extension of a broader American commitment to freedom and human rights (both positive and negative rights). Sounds nice on paper (and it’s the progressive view that I have most sympathy for), but is in practice impossible to satisfy, and leads to us draining our armed forces in struggles that don’t get us anything for them.

    2) The view that American military power should be used to forcibly distribute power equally among nations (not states). This view is mostly rooted in anti-colonialism of a sort: many leftists see American power as legitimate when it breaks up empires (regardless of how much better those empires are at maintaining liberty than the state that comes into place), and when it reduces its own power over what are perceived to be colonies of our own (Guam, for instance). This view prizes self-determination of a nation as overriding other concerns, and IMO, is pretty absurd from any perspective.

    IMO, some conservatives tend to buy into the first of these views more than they should.

  • E Pluribus Unum

    you advocate for the infallible pick-a-moderate plan. I can’t imagine anything that could go wrong with that.

    So in spite of the obvious wisdom of that plan, just call me a stodgy old pirate who won’t play the game. I advocate a presidential candidate that speaks to conservative ideals like small. on obtrusive government, strong defense, strong foreign policy that advocates freedom in all lands, family values.

    Let the people in the middle chose between a statist and a freedomist, having seen a few years of what statists can do to a country.

  • gekster

    we need someone who will kiss those states butts so they will vote for our candidate.
    Like Reagan did.

    Noooo……. Waaaaiiiit…..

    Reagan never did that.
    He explained his conservative beliefs and never waivered from them.
    It seamed the red, purple, and blue went for that approach in a big way.
    Never mind.

  • E Pluribus Unum

    There was a large, large contingent in the Republican Party who hated McCain with a red passion,and the reason for that is that he had a long and illustrious career of sticking knives in the back of conservatives, and bolting for the middle at any opportunity. He saved all his military toughness for fighting our party and our movement.

    That was well known, though a whole lot of people were taken in by his hollow image.

    So as it relates to 2012, I want EVERYBODY involved to be closely examined, to have to defend why they want to be our president, and to explain the things they’ve done and supported in the past that do not line up with what Republicans and conservatives desire in a president.

  • jamesmackey

    The Russians left eastern Europe in 1991 so basically the American taxpayers have been subsidizing the vast welfare states of Western Europe by keeping bases and troops stationed there.

    Japan surrendered 65 years ago. Imperial Japan no longer exists thus it is long past time to bring the troops home. Same with Korea a very wealthy country that doesn’t fear the North.

    We’ll still have Guam and Hawaii so the United States will sill have a very big footprint in the pacific.

    We can’t have small limited government with troops stationed all over the world.