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EDITOR OF REDSTATE

The Great White Unknown

By: Erick Erickson (Diary)  |  January 13th, 2012 at 05:00 AM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

It is one of my overarching concerns with the myth of Mitt the Electable — Bain Capital and Romney’s time in the private sector. Byron York sums it up here.

There’s no basis to reflexively defend Romney’s record, because we don’t know in any real detail what he did at Bain. But there’s no basis to indict him, either, for the same reason.

There are seemingly two caricatures of candidates that play badly with the American people. One is the evangelical preacher out to save the world. The politician as tent revival preacher is a long caricatured American political staple going back to the ninetieth century and William Jennings Bryant among others.

The other caricature is that of the millionaire tycoon out to buy the election. This has been a staple of American politics since the turn of the 20th century and passage of the first campaign finance laws. Historically, neither caricature is popular or successful on the national stage.

Within the Republican Party, the least successful of the two has been the millionaire tycoon caricature. Dan McLaughlin noted the other day

Look back over the years at the list of wealthy Republican candidates who put their wealth ahead of their limited records in public office. The California GOP has had the worst record: Bill Simon, Carly Fiorina, Meg Whitman, Michael Huffington, and Bruce Herschensohn all flopped. The positive example is Arnold Schwarzenegger, who proved a disaster for California conservatives in office. Simon, a good and decent man and fairly conservative, faced an opponent with approval ratings so terrible on Election Day that he was recalled just months later – yet the Democrats tore Simon limb from limb with attacks on his private business record. Republicans in other states or at the national level have often found such candidates to be electoral failures or totally unreliable in pursuing our party’s principles in office: Herman Cain, Mike Bloomberg, Carl Paladino, Linda McMahon, Jack Ryan, Pete Coors, Pete Dawkins. (Ron Johnson and Rick Scott being rare exceptions, and Scott only won after a searing campaign against his business record). An understanding of private business is a valuable thing for public officials, but it’s no substitute for experience pursuing good public policies; Jon Corzine was a success in business before he ran New Jersey into the ground, and the most successful businessman ever to be president was Herbert Hoover. It’s entirely valid for Republicans to ask whether we are buying ourselves a similar set of headaches with Romney.

There are a lot of unknowns with Bain Capital — good and bad. With a firm caricature locked in the American psyche of millionaire tycoons out buying elections and the Obama money machine ready to spin a narrative, I really do fear the GOP is rushing headlong into political suicide with Mitt Romney as the nominee. Should he be the nominee, I hope I’m wrong. But I doubt I will be.

Couple that with the already well set narrative of Romney the opportunist and the Democrats will have a field day with the millionaire who will say, do, or pay anything to buy up the Presidency.

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  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …although a grammar-error reflects a deeper problem with Mitt’s candidacy, which will be explored.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …with the third related to personality. It may be recalled that some people felt that it was preferable to want to “have a beer” with Bush-’43 in 2000 [although he was a teetotaler] in contrast with the wooden-Gore.

    In this instance, comparing/contrasting [JUST for example] Mitt and Perry, the “retail politics” magnetism of the latter is [albeit too infrequently] evidenced quite regularly. While Mitt filibustered during the two weekend debates about his vision for America [intended to contrast with the "malaise"-factor promulgated by BHO], palpable was the contrast with crisp-comments by Perry [albeit permitted on only six occasions during the entire Saturday experience, actually-sponsored by the D?s and not ABC].

    So, there are actually THREE images Americans dislike [with Mitt arguably befitting two of them]. Again, this has nothing to do with the fact that Mitt is also a teetotaler; it has everything to do with the reason BHO hasn’t truly plummeted in the polls; people like this JFK-like family…and its head. {I recoil @ this level of assessment, but those with whom I debate are force-feeding me this narrative and, thus, it is provided for “completeness.”}

    The syntactical construction employed by EE ["...the least successful of the two..."] is flawed because the word “least” is used to compare at least three entities, whereas a sentence using “lesser” would be invoked to rank only two items [as is the case in his essay]. But, when the third negative-narrative is factored-in, the overall thrust of the essay could be generalized thusly:

    “Between the ‘preacher’ and the ‘say/pay anything’ memes, the latter has been less successful among the GOP. Among these two narratives and the ‘personal accessibility” meme, the “Main St.” contingency within the GOP gravitates least towards the ‘say/pay anything’ caricature with, of the remaining two criteria, the ‘Elmer Gantry’ aloof-styling of a candidate’s self-image being less appealing than that of a person who projects as an elitist. (The Republicans would be more apt to tolerate someone in a higher ‘social’ class than someone who thinks he/she is ‘God’ because the former would at least pretend to do what he/she thinks the simple-voter would want.)”

    Albeit convoluted, a bit, adding this third criterion to the “mix” affords the thinkers [who are now, suddenly, rethinking the "electability" issue] a better appreciation of how Perry–like RR–would fare against BHO. He can speak “Evangelically,” but he doesn’t project intrusively upon the listener…for authenticity reigns. He can be accused of small-scale “crony capitalism,” but no one can claim he flip-flops. And he can be viewed as amenable to the “oops”-moment, but no one can impugn the importance of the guy who “walks the extra mile” to minimizes job-loss by applying “Constitutional limited government” and “federalism” principles.

    Perry negates all three concerns which, in contrast, infest Santorum. This trifecta has been documented [http://nationaljournal.com/2012-presidential-campaign/santorum-s-complicated-quest-to-unite-conservatives-20120112?mrefid=subhplead_2] and emerges unscathed when people “testify” to the apostasy he evinced [recalling vividly that Guzzardi started--in 2004--using the words "squish" and "arrogant" to describe him, even as Toomey was emerging as a primary-opponent]. Santorum’s stridency [dramatized in "It Takes a Family"], adherence to earmarks/lobbyists [noting, for example, his UHS-generated income], and inability to project a magnetic personality [try as he might]…these contrast with Perry and hit all the wrong “buttons” in all three electorates [R's, D's, Indies].

    Perhaps, someday, the MSM/LSM/ELM ["Establishment Leaning Media" such as FNC] will allow the polling to reflect these facts. Perhaps that “someday” will occur after three imminent events transpire: the conservative-conclave in Texas, the TEA Party Movement gathering in Myrtle Beach, and the FNC-sponsored debate. The “signs” emanating from Ms. Amy Kremer, co-chair of Tea Party Express, are particularly encouraging because, two days ago, she excluded Santorum from those who are in-the-running, undoubtedly because she knows of his profligate spending propensity; it must be recalled that “TEA” denotes “Taxed Enough Already”…a core-value that only Perry has integrated into his POTUS-Platform by citing personal achievement. And most people comparing/contrasting The Newt with Perry would recognize that the former promotes Big Government “solutions” quite regularly.

    …but there’s more….

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    First, one sentence requires clarification: I wrote “In this instance, comparing/contrasting [JUST for example] Mitt and Perry, the ?retail politics? magnetism of the latter is [albeit too infrequently] evidenced quite regularly.” When I was referring to the infrequency of Perry’s magnetism, I was citing the dearth of media-reports thereof.

    *

    Second, regarding Santorum, the fact that Mitt is going after him aggressively [just discussed by Politico on PMSNBC] is huge, and the two criteria [spending/immigration] that are supposedly to be promoted don’t even cite a great S.C. concern [opposition to "right to work" laws].

    *

    Third, it may be recalled that The Newt has unambiguously supported the Individual Mandate. This is why “Wonkish1″ has absented him/herself from RS during the past month, and this is why “JSobieski” has chosen to discuss other facets of the campaign. Both resisted this conclusion aggressively, despite provision of overwhelming documentation thereof. This was documented both within video-clips and in his RECENT writings [much as how he would claim the posture dated back two decades, when he based opposition to HillaryCare on an expressed-preference of private-insurance instead of single-payor].

    Quoting from “Winning the Future” [2005, page 116, ? 2]: “4. You have the right to be part of the lowest-cost insurance pool and you have a responsibility to buy insurance. We need some significant changes to ensure that every American is insured, but we should make clear that a 21st Century Intelligent Health System requires everyone to participate in the insurance system.”

    Quoting from “Real Change” [2008, page 227, ? 3]: “Third, individuals are expected to help pay for their care. Everyone should be required to have coverage. Those with very low incomes should receive vouchers or tax credits to help them buy insurance. Those who oppose the concept of insurance should be required to post a bond to cover costs. Allowing individuals to pass their health costs onto others reinforces the attitude that their health is not their problem and adds to the irresponsible, unhealthy behaviors that bankrupt the current system.”

    *

    Third, Paul’s status [discussed by Dick Morris yesterday, http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/why-is-ron-paul-getting-votes-dick-morris-tv-lunch-alert/] illustrates the need to recall the three “layers” of the GOP platform; he notes that, although he rejects two [foreign policy and non-libertarian social policy], it is vital to integrate his economic message. Just like RR, Perry has also espoused fiscal responsibility [even specifically praising Paul's perspective on the Fed], suggesting a potential facility of ensuring his viewpoint would be emphasized in a GOP-POTUS campaign in the fall..and beyond.

    Morris emphasized the 50%-vote in NH from youth [who could be "imprinted" to remain within the GOP], and D-rationalizations [Rendell just said, on PMSNBC, that politicians "get trapped within the system"] would only emphasize further the capacity of Perry to dismantle D.C. [a major message he has increasingly conveyed during the debates].

    Politically, if indeed Colbert’s “committee that is exploring whether to create an Exploratory Committee” yields any type of formal filing, the “message” of widespread disgust with insiders can easily be captured ONLY by Perry, for reasons aforementioned. It is hoped that the TPM will recognize the sincerity of Perry’s unambiguous pledge ["I have your back and please let me have yours"] and act accordingly.

  • http://www.planettron.com NickDeringer

    This is the worst field in my lifetime. If Mitt is a disaster then the other candidates are an even more certain disaster.

    Newt Gingrich? The mother load of Newt’s baggage has yet to hit the fan.

    Santorum? He has “I’m a social conservative” tattooed on his forehead and the MSM will hammer him for it just like they have already.

    My man Perry is imploding with his staff leaving to go to work for Mitt.

    Who will save us, Erick? Show us the light, Erick. Give us a full throated endorsement of someone and lead us from the darkness.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …regarding Perry’s alleged implosion, for EE claimed staff-changes had been consistent with his concerns.

  • josephine

    The beltway media is behind Mitt Romney. Mitt will get along just fine with the existing Senate. I can just see it now. Photo opts of Mitch McConnell and Romney begging to please the liberals.
    The inside trading will continue. The trade offs made at the expense of Americans. Washington, both Democrats and Republicans, are afraid of Gingrich.
    Forget this Bain debacle, the real problem is the Mass. liberal on the Republican ticket. Romneycare equals Obamacare. It was the model for Obamacare. No one’s talking about it and that is a shame.
    Florida is important, but it is no longer a conservative state. The population has changed over the years. The north has moved south. They love us, but just like the radicals that move into our country because they want relief,and then go about changing it to what they hate; the north has brought their baggage too. There are UNION workers in Florida-they’ve moved from Michigan,which they destroyed. They’ve moved from NY , which they allowed to be destroyed. The entire northern sector of the U.S. has moved down here. We welcome them, but don’t be thinking those are conservatives pushing Romney. Florida is not what you think. We love Florida, but we haven’t considered it southern and conservative in years.

  • dpmapper

    … who has demonstrated an ability to win over moderate swing voters, has a solid conservative platform but can present himself as bipartisan, and who is unassailable personally.

  • swamphermit

    Republicans voters (for the most part) and the GOP have become nothing more than Puppets for the Left to control, especially in Presidential elections.

    Liberals HATED ‘W’ and eventually Republicans came to hate him.

    Liberals HATED Palin, and most Republicans started hating her, hating her a lot quicker than it took for them to hate ‘W’ as their Puppet Masters grew more experienced at controlling the strings.

    By the time Herman Cain showed up, it took a mere tug at the strings and most of the Right went to destroying him or sitting idly by as Cain was destroyed.

    Now we have John Bolton backing Romney, i.e. Bolton backs Socialism over Communism. Never thought I would see that happen…

  • renl57

    Erick,
    now you sound just like one of those so-called “concern trolls.”

    I’m positive you’re not raising Romney’s Bain record because you’re “concerned” it will affect his electability.

    You’re trying to stop him from getting the nomination at all costs, and you’re knowingly smearing him with the same tools that Ted Kennedy used in 1994.

    You’ll be pleased to know that you Perry supporters have earned the eternal gratitude of liberal Obama supporters like E.J. Dionne:

    “What if a certain class of capitalist makes scads of money not by building up companies but by tearing them down? What if there is a distinction between the capitalist we typically honor who comes up with a good product and hires people to make and market it; and another kind who takes over a company, pulls out all the cash he can, and then abandons it to die?

    “This is not the narrative of some Marxist intellectual writing in an obscure journal. It?s how Perry, who last I checked was a rather ardent conservative, described Romney?s line of work.”

    http://tinyurl.com/7lrtqrr

    Erick,
    you’re worried that Romney is unelectable? You and Perry are *making* Romney unelectable.

    The most delicious thing (from the liberals’ point of view) is that you have legitimized the left-wing attack on Romney. You’re basically admitting that Ted Kennedy was right about Romney in 1994. Now all Obama, or the DNC has to do is quote you, Perry, and Gingrich verbatim in their attack ads on Romney, should he be nominated.

  • dpmapper

    No offense to EE there. Perry and Gingrich are another matter; I think *they* are hurting the party, more so in the damage they are doing to the GOP core message generally rather than in the damage they are doing to any one person. I will not vote for either of them in the primary.

    I do, however, think it is perfectly legitimate to think the attacks are way below the belt and yet believe that they might be effective in the fall. If this were 1950′s Mississippi, I wouldn’t nominate a white man who had married a black woman if I was trying to win. Sorry, life is unfair sometimes.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    They are raising a populist concern that requires specific scrutiny, although The Newt appears to have slackened-off.

    HOW Bain’s activities cost jobs is a reasonable/necessary concern. The END [trying to save companies] doesn’t always justify the MEANS [paying insufficient attention to the result when fiscal-juggling could benefit the financier].

    If jobs/jobs/jobs are to be the focus, whether skills employed to reduce unemployment are transferable to the role of POTUS, this is indeed worthy of attention.

  • thosjefferson

    Romney’s background is widely known and documented. He’s by far the most vetted candidate still running. The companies Bain invested in are well-known and can be examined by anyone who wants to. Your claim that “There are a lot of unknowns with Bain Capital” is a sad effort to muddy the water; if you want to know, ask around. Romney’s not hiding anything.

    Gingrich’s “KingOfBain” video has been debunked by everyone who has examined it. One of the best is here:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/four-pinocchios-for-king-of-bain/2012/01/12/gIQADX8WuP_blog.html

    Your anti-Romney psychosis is deepening, Erick. You’ve developed a reputation for dealing with reality, but your reputation is taking a huge hit when you write things like this. Of all people, you ought to be forthright and clear, not helping the DNC confuse voters by alluding to “unknowns” that don’t exist.

    Not to mention, you keep shilling for Gingrich, who has been far less forthcoming than Romney. In fact, we’re just now learning a little more about Gingrich’s lobbying activities, since he refuses to explain beyond lying about being paid $1.6 million for services as a “historian.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/group-calls-newt-gingrich-lobbying-investigation/story?id=15298454#.TxApY29YuAo

  • thosjefferson

    On the one hand we have John Bolton, one of the most consistent, thoughtful and experienced foreign policy experts in the nation who personally knows every candidate and has worked at the highest levels of government, whom even Newt wants to appoint as Secretary of State.

    On the other hand, we have “swamphermit” who relies on innuendo, 30-second ads, soundbites, and out-of-context quotations by anti-Romney groups.

    Which of the two is the real puppet?

  • bk

    Every one of them seems to be a lawyer and have done lots of “public service”. Other than that, name any of these that ever had to meet a payroll and hire/fire people other than maybe a secretary:
    - Obama
    - Biden
    - Hillary
    - Clinton
    - Gore
    - Kerry
    - Edwards
    etc.

  • throwback59

    to paint Romney as trying to buy the election when Obama is raising 1 Billion dollars. That figure is well known and far more than anything the Reps. will be able to do.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …then Mitt should explain his “vote” for decimating the two companies cited by Perry.

    Inasmuch as you claim “Romney?s background is widely known and documented,” then let’s see whether he discharged his business-oriented responsibilities in a fashion that would initially/subsequently preserve/enhance jobs.

    The fact that this concern resonates positively among the D’s should alarm Mitt’s defenders.

  • http://chuckdevore.com chuckdevore

    Bruce Herschensohn ran against Barbara Boxer in 1994, beating Tom Campbell and Sonny Bono to win the primary. Herschensohn wasn’t a wealthy, self-funded candidate, rather, he was a conservative L.A.-based TV commentator who had experience in the Nixon Administration. He ran for the Senate nomination in 1986, losing to the self-funded and moderate Ed Zschau, a two-term Congressman from the Silicon Valley. Herschensohn ran the closest to Boxer in a year that featured a weak George H.W. Bush at the top of the ticket with Ross Perot doing better in California than in most states.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …and then parlay that purchase into a nomination that others would be forced to support.

  • babykaboomer

    and John “Channeler” Edwards…a couple more sanctimonious sleazeballs who made their millions the old fashioned way-they whored for it! Republicans better understand yesterday that you don’t waste too much time defending yourself and capitalism, you attack, attack, attack Obama with grand theft charges: TARP, Solyndra, et al. Here, the best defense is indeed a good offense. I remember Romney in ’08, chasing down some democrat pit bull journalist who had savaged him, pleading with him to explain why he was being so darn mean and begging for a Kumbayah moment with him. Drop the mitts, Mitt! This is Chicago blood sport. Rick Perry, I have no doubt, would relish and prevail in the bare knuckles brawl that’s about to take place.

  • streiff

    Bain refuses to release the companies they’ve invested in because of “privacy.”

    One more instance of name calling and you can fellate Romney some other place.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …but, wouldn’t it be desirable to depend upon elections?

  • sunshinek67

    The issue of Romney-Bain accepting Government taxpayer funded bail out money is problematic for him in the general election.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …consider efforts by Santorum to redistribute wealth [from "It Takes a Family"...pages 151-152].

    “The opportunity to build wealth, and the understanding of how to do that, needs to be democratized. Senator Joe Lieberman and I have been promoting an idea ever since I arrived int he Senate. Individual Development Accounts, IDAs, act like a 401(k0 program for low-income individuals. These programs are set-up, many by faith-based organizations, with a mix of federal, state and private dollars. These organizations help their low-income clients set-up accounts at their local banks or credit unions, provide training on how to manage and grow these accounts, and then MATCH INDIVIDUAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO THESE ACCOUNTS DOLLAR-FOR-DOLLAR UP TO $500 PER YEAR. These accounts earn tax-free interest and can be used to pay for education, to buy a home, or to start a business. In other words, these accounts launch low-income people into the asset accumulation game.”

    Yeah, and they also manifest a type of Compassionate Conservatism” that BHO would perceive as “redistributional,” eh?

  • http://www.planettron.com NickDeringer

    I wince when people hold up Newt Gingrich as an alternative to Mitt Romney. Why? I?ve dissected this short revealing video of Gingrich and Hillary Clinton in front of the cameras back in 2005 making the case for health care mandates. I was able to weed my way through the piles of Newt-speak to find a very candid glimpse of the real Newt.

    More…

  • jgge

    Obama main strategy has always been to go after Romney Bain Capital record and show him tas the ruthless person who made his huge fortune by destroying workers lives. He is going to do so whether Perry and Gingrich attacked Romney on this or not. Bain Capital is going to destroy Romney in the general elections and some of us warned people long time ago about Romney and his Bain Capital before most people heard about Bain Capital.

  • jgge

    So why are you Romney supporters crapping in your pants for exposing Romney Bain Capital record? Do you fools who support Romney think that Bain Capital would not be the main strategy for Obama to destroy Romney in the elections? You Romney supporters are delusional fools and live in an alternate universe totally detached from reality. Obama main strategy has always been to go after Romney Bain Capital record and show him tas the ruthless person who made his huge fortune by destroying workers lives. He is going to do so whether Perry and Gingrich attacked Romney on this or not.

  • barleycorn

    An extra “t” snuck in there.

  • znjs

    did anything by themselves to make even the right get sick of them? Bush, Palin Cain, all totally innocent of anything that would justify the right turning on them?

  • Juggernaut

    Its certainly time the media take him seriously as should conservatives, his record isn’t perfect because of AGW which he backed off of and drivers licenses for illegals and a few others but clearly more conservative than Romney by a long shot. He left ofice after 6 years to work for Obama, odd but I haven’t researched why. Romney looked foolish for attacking him for serving since he served the needs of gov and capitalism in China.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …and it is based on what one person did yesterday.

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/politics/120112/rick-perry-loses-barry-wynn-top-gop-aide-mitt-romney

    This hardly constitutes a “movement.”

    [quoting Arlo Guthrie's "Alice's Restaurant"]

    http://www.arlo.net/resources/lyrics/alices.shtml

    “You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he’s really sick and they won’t take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they’re both faggots and they won’t take either of them. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singin’ a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and walking out. They may think it’s an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it’s a movement.”

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    Bush was spender [see reference to Santorum, elsewhere on this page].

    Palin angered potential-supporters due to dilatory approach to POTUS [non-]announcement.

    Cain was ill-prepared, particularly regarding foreign policy.

  • Juggernaut

    plus repeat events allowed the media to harp over Palin plus the far left infested too many media outlets coupled with closer relationships with dems and the DNC gave comfort to media tomfoolery.

    I didn’t see the right really hating Bush except for disappointment with spending and rubber stamping lib leaning bills. Though his management style and spending did hurt party image. The media capitalized on that and the gop didn’t fight back well enough to set the record straight.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …and that’s why the MSM/LSM/ELM continue to black-out Perry’s true conservatism.

    I just listened to a Rothenberg commentator on PMSNBC claim … at the end of her praise for Mitt and her {sigh} acknowledgement of a fractured set of attackers “from the right” … that Santorum was the only remaining social-conservatives.

    It would be unbelievable, were it not so sad.

  • Death_of_the_Donkey

    Perry is at 5% in SC (behind even Huntsman) and just lost Barry Wynn’s support over his attacks on capitalism. Perry is only at 2% in FL. It’s over for Perry, there is no comeback coming, and at this point all his involvement is doing is furthering Mitt’s chances of the nomination.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …although the lingo stimulated me to check-out the vocabulary employed.

  • jakeofalltrades

    who can say what the main one would be?

  • jakeofalltrades

    Running to Romney’s right is probably the best, IMO. I’d try to pull it off if I were Obama. Especially with so many RINOs already threatening to stay home.

  • Juggernaut

    like Romney other than someone who hasn’t examined Romney’s record or worse is using the liberal style of ignore the facts vote based solely out of fear.

  • Marcus_Traianus

    I am simply curious what we are contrasting against? Is the choice or implication now that people will go with “the devil they know”?

    Let’s talk about “optics”, shall we? Since 2008 these pages have been graced with gratuitous, truthful examples of how Mr. Obama has been a one man wrecking ball to our economy and way of life. He has destroyed the American Dream for thousands, undermined America’s role in the world, foisted socialist themes into our nomenclature, lost our credit rating, lumped historical amount of debt on our children, bowed to our enemies, depleted our military capabilities, appointed liberal radicals to SCOTUS and installed a new social program which will ensure our fiscal destruction and potentially changed our rights, as articulated by the Constitution.

    So with the aforementioned in mind, are you saying that the optics of a “millionaire” banker (whether true or not) as you state it…wins?

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …because the “informal” role played by Winn doesn’t truly befit his being characterized as an “aide.”

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/11/demint-advisers-to-endorse-romney/

    Fundamentally, the “grouping” relates to the interaction of these three people with DeMint; we have yet to hear from Tim Scott.

  • Juggernaut

    Anyone have a Nexis account to source the 1994 article? Politico covered it too.

    http://forums.charlotteobserver.com/?q=node/15229

    Pious Baloney from the National Revue: Mitt Romney ran a firm that invested in struggling businesses, made money, and never asked for a bailout ? and Romney?s rivals apparently expect Republican voters to regard that as a liability.
    Never asked for a bailout? Uh:

    Republican Senate nominee Mitt Romney?s rescue of a business consulting firm was achieved in part by convincing the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. to forgive roughly $10 million of the company?s debts, according to sources close to the deal and federal records obtained by The Boston Globe. Romney, whose business acumen has been the cornerstone of his campaign, has said saving the Bain & Co. consulting firm from the brink of bankruptcy in 1991 was the accomplishment that most convinced him he had the mettle to be a US senator.

    That?s from The Boston Globe, October 25, 1994 (via Nexis). So not only did Mitt Romney ask for a federal bailout?he received one. And unlike loan guarantees, Romney sought?and received?the equivalent of cold hard cash. Romney apologists will say that the FDIC is funded by financial transaction fees, but taxpayers provided the backstop, and even though Bain & Co. went on to make millions more in profits, the fund was never replenished.

    That?s not the only bailout in Romney?s past, however. When a steel mill backed by Bain collapsed, not only was the entire workforce out of a job, but the federal government was on the hook to the tune of $44 million to bail out the mill?s pension plan. Bain, however, made nearly $10 million on the deal, profiting handsomely from failure.

    I can?t say that I?m surprised that Mitt Romney and his allies have conveniently forgotten about these bailouts ? but I am a little puzzled about why his Republican rivals haven?t brought them up yet. They don?t have much?if any?more time.

    Read more here: http://forums.charlotteobserver.com/?q=node/15229#storylink=cpy

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58952.html#ixzz1hqSHP532

  • Juggernaut

    takes bailout funds, approves of TARP and Auto bailouts and also tried to take credit for the Detroit bailout before he changed his mind.

    Fact is dems see Mitt as the other Chosen One because he’s mallable, his MA record is proof the man will cave in to support the other side too often. A true conservative would lead as a conservative not a moderate and progressive even in a blue state……..that’s his excuse. Except for the fact that gop governors have won blue states many times and lead as a conservative. Isn’t Chris Christie standing up to dems and lib media. To beat Romney, focus on his past career in the public sector and private sector too.

  • sethellis

    Have we already lost? That’s what some would have us believe. If the political climate against business is really as bad as Erick claims then free markets have already lost. What would even be the point?

    I refuse to believe that. I still believe that true principles can prevail, and that tomorrow can be better than today. We might not like the cards that we have been dealt, but it is the only chance we have. This is the last opportunity we may have to make our case, and none of the other candidates have the chops to take on such a challenge. If Romney can’t do it, then we never will.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …has been provided today, to appear in this Sunday’s NY-Times Mag:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/magazine/tea-party-south-carolina.html?_r=1&ref=politics

    *

    An excerpt:

    Then our conversation turned to Mitt Romney, and Martin?s sunny countenance darkened. ?I don?t know a single Tea Party person,? she said, slowly drawing out her words, ?who does not despise Mitt Romney to the very core of their being.? I searched her face for levity or compassion, but found neither.

    *

    I would LOVE to be present @ Sunday’s Myrtle Beach event!

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …his fealty to BHO’s China-Policy and opposition to Enhanced Interrogation ["because it would besmirch America's image, abroad"].

  • Addison

    My guess is that come election time Bain Capital as an issue with rest alongside McCain’s houses in relative importance — an issue that is more or less non-impactful even though many people in the media talk about it. A placeholder and way to talk about other issues rather than an actual issue itself. This relies on Mitt dealing with it well, though, which I imagine he’ll do in time. And I’m not sure that many in the GOP are doing Mitt any favors, since he’s currently not explaining Bain but instead saying there’s nothing to explain.

    Watching the (melodramatic, groan-inducing) “King of Bain” ad-film, there is a sense of, “wow, that is kind of messed up”. Romney needs to say something more than “it’s about envy” to combat the “that is messed up” factor. If Romney is running on his record as a private citizen, and the jobs he created as a private citizen, all this stuff is on the table. Mitt put it there. And what’s on the table vis-a-vis the Bain record is not a jobs creation program/plan that will play well in PA, OH, or MI, relying as it does in many cases on eliminating surplus labor (i.e. voters) from the payroll.

    So, if I had any advice, it’d be to let Mitt work through this on his own. Support from the right will only help until Tampa. Maybe not even until then. After that it becomes a liability. So if he muddles through with a little help from his friends, he’s muddling into quicksand.

  • Death_of_the_Donkey

    you should be telling Perry to get out. All he is doing is dividing up support from the potential non-Romney candidates furthering Romney’s chances of winning.

  • http://www.planettron.com NickDeringer

    If things like SOPA are passed we won’t recognize the Internet.

    This bill allows the Feds to prosecute web sites they see as violating copyright law. The definition is vague at best. It could affect people like:

    eBay
    Amazon
    Google

    To name a few. But it could also shut down RedState, HotAir, and others who link to copyrighted material. Romney is not my dream candidate and it’s a little late in the game to be sobbing about it. He has the money and the machine to take on One-bama. And when the house is burning down and the fireman comes to rescue you, you don’t stop to ask who he voted for in the last election.

    Defeat One-bama we much!!!

  • miconservative

    Romney seems to love creative destruction when it comes to companies like AmPad when it leads to big profits for Bain while costing thousands of people their jobs and livliehoods. So be it. Perhaps that is the way the system works.

    But why is it that he didn’t apply that same standard to AIG or Goldman Sachs or Fannie or Freddie or Bank of America? He seemed to be stating in 2008 that the creative destruction of those private companies would destroy the economy and thus the taxpayers should be required to bail them out with no hope of ever seeing a return of the money given to them. Could it be perhaps that in the case of the creative destruction of AmPad that the only people who would be hurt were the little guys who ran the machines while if creative destruction was applied to AIG or Goldman the pain would be felt in the halls of places like Bain?

    Romney’s adherence to this philosophy seems to only be applicable when it benefits people like him.

  • Ann_W

    And no, sunshine, don’t think that all the Staples and Sports Authority, and Dominos pizza, and Steel Dynamics jobs are overseas. You are wrong about the bailout, too. Here’s a great NRO article explaining that. www.nationalreview.com/exchequer/287927/no-bain-did-not-get-bailout

  • gipper823

    If not Romney, who? It’s time for an endorsement from Erick.

  • renl57

    AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka found one thing to agree with Newt Gingrich on: the attacks on Mitt Romney?s tenure at Bain Capital.

    ?I agree with some of the things Newt Gingrich says – not a lot, but some,? Trumka said on MSNBC?s ?Morning Joe,? continuing on to say that he thought Gingrich?s line of attack on Romney was fair game.

    ?I heard [host Joe Scarborough] say it?s going to backfire because of the attack on free enterprise. The question is what kind of free enterprise, and who does that free enterprise benefit?? Trumka said. ?If that kind of free enterprise only benefits the top percent, you?re going to see more of what you saw on the street.?

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71408.html

  • pmb88

    this after the debate, “Mitt Romney won tonight because no one touched him. And for Democrats, you know what? It was good news for us . . . because we believe that the weakest candidate is the candidate that the Republicans are not attacking. And that?s Mitt Romney”

    The left already know that mitt romney is the weakest candidate and they can crush him. I am kind of glad that Perry and Gingrich made those attacks eventhough it made me cringe. This is just a taste of what the left are going to do to him in the general and needs to be prepared.

    I am sick of the establishment trying to force him on us saying that he is the most electable. Imo he is not the most electable. He just seems to me like a john mccain or even obama in some aspects.
    If Romneys’ private sector experience is what qualifies him as president then how come when he was the Governor of Mass. the state was ranked 47th in job creation.

    I hope that one or two of the other candidates stay in. Even though that their chances right now are dismal any thing can happen and we may not have to vote for Romney.

  • Ann_W

    Also not accurate. Co.’s reshaped by private equity people typically go on to do well and hire more people than they would have if they hadn’t been reshaped. They are more efficient, and overall our country has a better standard of living for it. Most of the companies that Gingrich’s hit piece says that Romney destroyed are still doing business, typically rehiring up to at least the level they were at before. See www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/01/is-private-equity-bad-for-the-economy/251245/

    It’s so sad to see people fired. But if you could never reshape businesses by firing people we would have a country like the old USSR, where no one but the govt. gets to decide when businesses are outdated. But on the bright side we’d have fully employed telephone operators, Blockbuster managers, and vacuum tube manufacturers. Many problems in our country exist because whole segments are immune from firing. Ineffective teachers, and government workers can’t be fired and the loss of productivity from the money wasted their effects everyone’s future.

    You just don’t like Romney. But this is not a conservative argument.

  • Tbone

    Is going to play great in Ohio and PA.

    So, Mitt doesn’t get any blue states or swing states or conservative states because I bet 10-20% of conservatives bothered to vote for McCain because Palin was on the ticket.

    Maybe Mitt will put Nikki on the ticket. How is that going to work out? LOL

  • streiff

    PE doesn’t exist to create successful companies. They exist to create wealth for a few plutocrats.

    Bain also didn’t deal in “outdated” businesses. They dealt in businesses they analyzed and determined to be 1) successful and 2) not performing at maximum profitability. Typically that meant they had a lot of cash on hand.

  • Scope

    Let me preface this with the fact that Romney left Bain Capital something like 20 years ago. It has been reported that Romney is still receiving some sort of monies from Bain even now. No one knows Romney’s net worth, but it isn’t hard to figure out it’s massive, and that wealth is invested somewhere- Bain investments? Romney will never release his tax returns until he must, and maybe not even then. Obama has never released his health or school records, and much of Obama’s past is still a mystery. Mitt Bain will follow that precedent undoubtedly.

    Read the Wiki write-up of Clear Channel Communications. It is owned by Bain Capital and another private equity firm. Wiki states that Bain Capital, and Thomas H. Lee Partners, bought Clear Channel in 2008, in a leveraged buyout. I’ve read elsewhere that they purchased Clear Channel in 2006. 2007 Revenue- $6.82 billion. 2007- Net Income-$938.5 million.

    At the bottom of the history section in the article, it states “In early 2010 it was announced that the company was facing bankruptcy due to it’s “crippling debt.” Here is an article from 2010 that talks about the Bain bankruptcy proceeding. At that time Bain had not yet settled with it’s creditors.

    Read way down on the Wiki page to the Criticizisms of Clear Channel. It makes the point of the many layoffs at Clear Channel during Bain’s ownership. The creative destruction philosophy is prominent throughout their ownership. Don’t miss the Setbacks and Cost-Cutting section. I’m certain that what they do is perfectly legal, but, being legal doesn’t mean the methods and business practices should be supported by any conservatives, if for no other reason than for moral and ethical reasons.

    Read the News Talk Stations section, and be prepared to puke. They are in a many year partnership with Fox radio. They host the radio shows I turned off months ago- Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin and more.

  • johnt

    Including & especially Obama. No need to focus on that tiny man’s money. oodles of other fat, greedy capitalist swine financing the Chief Loser, a crowd of plutocrats to be thrown in the face Obama, Axelrod, and the other dull witted inventions of the media that cluster around him. i think you could call it a target rich environment.
    Go for the juglar.

  • tyman

    I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the Dems dig up all kind of dirt on Bain to use in the general that Perry and Newt don’t have access to, to make what they’re saying look like small potatoes.

    I can’t believe that Republicans are serious about nominating Romney.

    If Bain is donating more money to Obama than Romney, something doesn’t sound right.

    When are we going to wake up from this nightmare?

    Romney is the Dems’ dream candidate, and we’re handing him over on a silver platter.

    Did Rush Limbaugh just say that Hillary turning $1,000 into $100,000 in the cattle futures market was unadulterated free market capitalism? NO! He went on and on about how fishy it looked.

  • edintexas

    The other candidates are not Conservatives, or even particularly conservatives, they are “non-Romney candidates”.

  • cathyb

    We had better stop bashing Romney because he is the only electable candidate we have-that is reality. A far right candidate will never win with the demographics we have in the country right now. We have to have a candidate that can get the conservative and moderate vote. So if conservatives can’t get everything they want they will bash Romney to the point where he can’t win against Obama? Look at the damage Obama is continuing to do! Conservatives better quit being so narrow minded and face the reality that no you are not going to get everything you want. Romney has the best chance to beat Obama. Isn’t that the ultimate goal???

  • thosjefferson

    The reek of beer must be getting to you. The companies Bain invested in are listed on their website, dude.

  • tjms

    reverse the track our country is on. And to do that it has to be someone that is not too moderate.

  • JSobieski

    How is dumping a stock you have no confidence in different than Bain dumping a company?

    If there is a website out there that allows me to track investments by jobs created/lost rather than the rate of return, I would love to see it.

    Do you really think Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Glen Beck, etc. can have their opinions bought? You really believe that Rush, a man with a net worth much higher than a hundred million dollars has an opinion that can be bought and paid for?

    Until 2012, the only people making that argument were leftists.

  • unitedwestood

    But I think it’s more likely that he will put Chris Christie on that ticket, just the same. I don’t see Christie as being much of a conservative after the hurricane hit that area this last season and he could careless “where” the money to pay for it was going to come from… just get it to his area! When people are backed up against a wall …what comes out of their mouths is what’s in their hearts. Conservative?

    That and with Ann Coulter on the rah team for Christie really makes me wonder about him being conservative.

    I was one of those voters that only voted McCain because of Palin and McCains wife having a business background. I did not vote for him in the primary.

    Which brings me to this…………We need to start vetting the wives considering what Moochelle has been allowed to pull off in this country.. what Hillary tried to pull off…. the first lady’s need to become fair game!

  • thosjefferson

    The more people look at Bain’s actual record, the better Romney looks. It’s the outright dishonesty in Gingrich’s movie, which is on display in the WashPost, Forbes, and many others who have looked at the facts, that is reprehensible.

    I hope Obama focuses on Bain. It will backfire just like Newt’s disastrous, delusional efforts.

    It’s a wonderful teaching moment for Republicans, first, and then the entire nation. Now that we’ve discovered how anti-capitalist and anti-entrepreneur so many so-called “conservatives” are, including Erick Erickson, the voters can make wiser decisions about who to even listen to in the future.

  • thosjefferson

    Others with no business background:

    Gingrich
    Santorum
    Perry
    Paul

    The only business people in this race have been Cain, Romney, and Huntsman, and Huntsman just barely.

  • jakeofalltrades

    he can break off to use as a weapon against utter lack of critical thinking.

  • edintexas

    If Mittens is the nominee, Dear Leader won’t attack him on Romneycare, other than to show what a hypocrite Romney is if he, or supporting PACs, makes Obamacare an issue in his campaign.

    With Romney as nominee, Obamacare is effectively off the table as a campaign issue. At least I don’t think we’ll see Romney ads that could allow counter attacks like “The individual mandate, he was for it before he was against it.”

  • Sirithil

    …I’ve read your post four times and am still not sure exactly what your point is.

    So, Romney still supposedly gets money from Bain (nice journalistic artifice there, you say ‘it has been reported’ without stating where or by whom), which owns a radio network that in some capacity works with (gasp, horror!) Fox Radio, and includes (gasp, horror!) Rush, Levin, and Beck, all of whom routinely tear into Romney, not that you’d know that if you ‘turned them off months ago’? I’m not sure what you’re alleging here. Some manner of dastardly nefarious conspiracy on the part of Mitt Romney to sabotage his own campaign? As the phrase goes, where’s the beef?

    I’m not a Romney supporter at all. He’s at the bottom of my list save only Luap Nor. I want to see Perry win this even though he probably won’t. But other than perhaps some sort of anticapitalistic allusion to ‘BAIN = EVIL’, I just don’t see what you’re trying to say.

  • cathyb

    I have a lot of family in Florida. Some in South Florida and some in Central Florida and they are 3rd generation Floridians. They are all for Romney because they are all moderate conservatives. They are not far right conservatives because Florida has always been a little more moderate then the deep south. They are the conservatives that loved and elected Jeb Bush and would never support a far right ultra conservative like Santorum and would have a problem with Gringrich and his family values among other things he has done. Just pointing out that there are still some conservatives in Florida. By the way, Romney has said he would repeal Obamacare over and over! And he is not a liberal if you take the time to look at all of his positions!

  • dpmapper

    There is another candidate in the race who can attract moderates at least as well as, if not better than, Romney. He has foreign policy, executive, and business experience, is more consistent than Romney, and is not vulnerable to the “Bain = evil Wall Street” attacks.

  • Scope

    You can take your 10 minute break now. Hurry back or you may find yourself laid off.

  • cathyb

    Bolton sees the reality of the situation and is right!!! We had better back Romney if we want Obama voted out.
    As for George W., he helped created the situation we are in by letting all those illegals in the country and guess what? They are all liberal, democrats and wanting government hand outs and getting them. They are helping to bankrupt the country. Duh? What did he think was going to happen? That is why he is so unpopular.

  • Samsara

    Yesterday on Rush:

    After Perry described rival Mitt Romney?s work at Bain Capital as ?vulture capitalism? (rather than venture capitalism), Limbaugh lashed out.

    ?That is indefensible!? he said on his EIB broadcast today. ?It?s absurd?this is the language of leftists! This is the way Fidel Castro thinks, or says he thinks.?

    http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2012/01/rush-limbaugh-compares-rick-perry-to-fidel-castro-for-using-language-of-leftists-against-romney/

    Well, if Rush said it, then it must be true, and if Perry is a Communist, then so am I. Romney can run adds saying Newt is handing out free abortions, but anyone who touches Bain (Part owner of Clear Channel radio) is a communist.

    Do svidaniya, Comrade Limbaugh.

  • jakeofalltrades

    And then he’ll flop back to supporting Perry.

  • tnfriendofcoal101368

    His support is so low, he is irrelevant. Has there been a worse run campaign for President? The rumor is out there also that Newt Gingrich has lost Adelson. If so, Don Meredith is singing “Turn Out the Lights”.

  • Common_Cents

    Obama broke open sealed divorce records to win past elections.

    Getting access to Bain records should be easy as pie.

  • jakeofalltrades

  • miconservative

    If we nominate Romney or Paul we are doomed to defeat and four more years of Obama. Now I would say Gingrich or Santorum or even Huntsman.

  • jj98

    Recalling President Reagan’s question to voters during a debate with Jimmy Carter, “Are you better off than you were four years ago?”, I ask the question:

    Were Massachusetts taxpayers better off when Mitt Romney left office than they were when he was sworn in?

    In respect of health care and health insurance, we know that they were much worse off because of Romneycare. As yet I have read of no positive accomplishments for taxpayers by the Romney administration. If there were any, I invite Romney advocates to provide details.

    In particular, I wonder what if anything Romney did to combat the wholesale corruption that permeates every level of government in Massachusetts. Based on the absence of any reports of a crackdown, it would seem that he looked the other way rather than risk the welcome received by John Lindsay from New York’s corrupt unions — a transit strike and the sanitation unions’ failure to plow snow in Queens for more than a week while the Lindsays were vacationing in Puerto Rico.

  • miconservative

    Mitt supports creative destruction when applied to ordinary American workers, but believes AIG, Goldman Sachs, etc, etc cannot be creatively destroyed because of their bad business decisions because the pain would be felt in the gilded halls of Bain. No they need taxpayer funded bailouts. Once again Romney inconsistency.

  • Scope

    You have been making a habit of stalking my posts lately. You offer your contrary, high road “opinions” as thought they are the only correct “opinions.”

    BTW- You still didn’t answer me as to where you got your “proof” that Perry used out of state signature collectors with respect to his VA Ballot lawsuit. You clearly stated that many of Perry’s signatures were thrown out because he used out of state signature collectors. I’m still waiting for your proof of that claim. I know I’ll be waiting a long time, as that information is not available at this time to anyone not directly involved in the lawsuit.

  • charlemagne1979

    we are assured four more years of Obama? A businessman put up against a politician who only knows how to talk but has no executive skills or backbone is going to beat Romney. If that happens, then American desires the economic misery it will encounter under four more years of quasi-socialist policies.

  • JSobieski

    (1) The argument raised in Perry’s complaint focused on the collectors
    (2) Perry had a far greater percentage of signatures thrown out than Newt
    (3) Perry’s complaint used the lower 6000 number instead of the higher 11000 number
    (4) There was a report out there than out of staters were used.

    You are correct that I didn’t provide video taped evidence of an out of state person obtaining signatures.

    So, care to answer whether you make investment decisions based on jobs created? Or do you try to make money off of your investments.?

    P.S. At least I don’t periodically engage in defamation of you by attributing statements to you that you don’t make. I suspect I am due for another one of you “JSobieski is a hypocrit” posts, which will of course force me to spend 5 minutes on Google to prove you wrong.

  • jakeofalltrades

    The original complaint from the Perry Campaign Website.

    In relevant part:

    The Honorable Rick Perry complains against Defendants as follows:
    …
    2. Plaintiff was unable to obtain a sufficient number of signatures from qualified voters to qualify for the Republican Party presidential primary ballot due to Board’s requirement that all petition circulators be an eligible or registered qualified voter in Virginia.

  • tyman

    Rush went nuts on Hillary turning $1k into $100k in the cattle futures market.

    He didn’t just chalk it up to free market capitalism, etc.

    Rush really lost me with the Castro comment. If Castro were governor of Texas, what would it be like? Ludicrous comment from El Rushbo.

  • usedtobelib

    Most conservatives I know are those who don’t belong to a Tea Party organization for they feel that flies in the face of what Tea Party tenets were complaining about in the first place.

    These are people who were ready to vomit over the kind of nominee the Tea Party activists ran for Senate in Nevada and Delaware.

  • Scope

    With respect to your above quote from the lawsuit, it claims that Perry’s inability to obtain sufficient signatures was due to the Board’s requirement that all petition circulators be an eligible or registered voter in VA. Doesn’t the possibility exist that Perry was unable to gain the required number of signatures because he was not allowed to use out of state collectors? Why does your quote prove that he did in fact use out of state collectors? I don’t see where the language speaks to he did, or he didn’t. It simply argues that the law says you can’t. Where is the proof without those facts being known to anyone outside of the lawsuit?

  • unsk

    From Karl Denninger at Market Ticker Blog:

    Mitt Romney And Bain: Fair?

    Is this a fair attack or not?

    It’s hard-hitting, but is it correct?

    To a large degree, yes it is.

    Let’s talk about what Bain, and other “private equity” firms really do. Their task — how they make money — is to find companies that are “inefficient” and turn them into more-efficient entities. Their reward for doing so is that they take some of the spoils for themselves — frequently as much as a quarter of the value in the firm or more.

    Efficiency is not a bad thing, and driving out inefficiency is, on balance, good. The problem is how that efficiency comes about.

    We live in a world where our government has conspired with banks to make cross-border arbitrage profitable. Very profitable. The result has been the evisceration of our working-class population — the vast majority of America. Our manufacturing has been made “more efficient” by moving it to China, where people labor under effective slave conditions — conditions so good that recently a group of employees at Foxconn threatened to commit suicide en-masse.

    But it doesn’t end there. The abuse of leverage makes possible the taking of more and more debt by firms that then gets paid out to these private-equity raiders. The putative argument for this sort of structure is that the debt will help grow the company and thus everyone will benefit.

    But it doesn’t always work out that way.

    KB Toys is one example outlined in that video that is truthful. KB was larded up with debt and ultimately collapsed under the load. Yet Bain made a monstrous profit on what was, objectively, a failed transaction.

    This sort of “strip it and steal it” model is entirely legal. But the question is not whether something is legal — it is whether it’s a model we ought to encourage and base our economy upon, and whether someone who has practiced this destruction of American jobs and the offshoring of capital should be elected President.

    The answer, quite simply, is no.

  • usedtobelib

    “Who will save us, Erik?” you plead.

    “Show us the light, Erick. Give us a full throated endorsement of someone and lead us from the darkness.”

    You sound like a union guy looking to Big Boss to tell him how to think.

    That’s embarrassing for a member of party which once had thinking people.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Virginia’s requirement for petition circulators to be either eligible or registered voters in the state violates Plaintiff’s freedoms of speech and association protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution. By enforcing the petition signature collection requirements in connection with Plaintiff’s candidacy, Defendants have violated the rights of Plaintiff to engage in protected speech and association activities under the United States Constitution.

    The complaint says Virginia enforced the requirement. If in fact they did not, Perry’s attorney should maybe be subject to sanctions and disciplinary action. It’s still circumstantial, but it’s pretty strong evidence that Virginia disqualified signatures based on the requirement. Otherwise, it was improper for his attorney to make this claim.

  • texashistorian

    while I generally like your posts, you are out on a limb on this one. Perry’s lawyers would not make the out-of-state collectors an issue if that wasn’t one of the reasons that he was disqualified from the ballot. Occam’s Razor works well in situations like this. MAny of Perry’s sigs were tossed because they were acquired by workers that were not eligible or registered to vote in Virginia. I think it’s pretty clear.

  • oldlady

    For starters, one of the biggest recipients, Goldman Sach’s, is Romney’s #1 donor. Romney is connected to many of the other recipients also.

    When the amount of government loans and bailouts used by Bain Capital to execute their deals comes out, who thinks that Tea Partiers are going to crawl to the polls to vote for it’s CEO?????

    As a CEO of a firm which benefitted him personally Romney was a wild success. But as a CEO of a government as Governor of Massachusetts Romney was a disaster (47th in jobs creation in the nation).

    Meanwhile we will have lost the one candidate who has a record of instituting all that the Tea Party conservatives have longed for as CEO of his State in Governor Perry in instituting Texas as the biggest jobs creator in the country, in the primary.

    Lesson….. Romney was a good CEO when it came to benefitting his own bank account. Perry was a good CEO when it came to benefitting the people whom he served!!

  • ethos

    Economic Know-How (Indisputable. What is at question is the personal ethics of Romney as an economic actor, and the ethics of venture capitalism as an economic vehicle. Considering that President Obama employed Bain Capital, among other industry experts, in the government’s turn around of the auto-industry provides validation to the core principles which drive venture capitalism. As to Romney’s personal ethics, de-fanging the broad narrative against venture capitalism will blunt damage done at the personal level. Still valid in conduction with other character attacks, but lacking stand-alone potentcy.)

    Reagan Conservative (cue soundbites. This is a problematic sell and can be exploited due to the “say anything” narrative)

    A Leader (This might be his strongest point, though open to attacks on the things he’s led).

    There is no fatal flaw to any of the “electability” qualities that Romney has going for him. Does he have weaknesses? Of course. His character will be assaulted. His Mormonism will provide a covert narrative to amplify the attacks. Other candidates have their weaknesses too (hence Romney is the front runner and not someone else), and it is most likely that even with the covert narrative that undermines Romney and amplifies overt narratives against him he still is our most electable.

  • tyman

    One made money by getting involved and micromanaging.

    The other allowed others to make money by getting the government out of the way.

    Did the folks in MA favor as well as those in TX?

    Perry ought to run a MA vs. TX ad.

    We might all wind up in TX before it’s over with.

  • bonnman

    Our greatest economic challenge right now is unemployment, we need jobs. And so what does Romney know about creating jobs? Massachusetts under Romney was ranked 47th in job creation. Thats pathetic.

  • sunshinek67

    is probably not going to resonate well with the average voter who doesn’t understand capitalism and free market system. Sociology is my field of interest. So there you go. Interesting article, still bad optics for Camp Romney, regardless of your spin. Remember he has to get a majority of the general electorate to relate to him, the 1%. Found some of the comments interesting as well.

    Bart : 01/12/12 18:42
    Mr. Williamson has simply re-defined the word “bailout” so that Bain can credibly be said not to have received one.
    But since it’s child’s-play to throw the terms “taxpayer money”, “government assistance” or “crony capitalism” at him instead, arguing that “it wasn’t a bailout pursuant to Section 5(e)(iii) of the Definition of ‘Bailout’ Book” isn’t a winner.

    marc_b : 01/12/12 13:22
    Mr. Williamson is really just muddying the waters here, by creating a quibble over terms rather than addressing the principled objection to Romney’s actions.
    This objection does not go away merely because the federal agency subsidies which benefited Bain weren’t technically “bailouts.” Honestly, so what? They’re still subsidies paid out of fees assessed to institutions which pass on the charges. Ultimately they still come out of the pocket of anyone with a bank account and a pension plan.
    In fact, since Bain went on to generate such huge returns in the years after the failed LBO and the settlement Romney worked out, I think it’s all the more appropriate to ask questions about that loan write-down that came out of FDIC funds. As taxpayers we didn’t exactly get any of that back, did we? Basically Romney solved his short-term problem by getting us to pick up part of the tab, and then he moved on. Exact same thing with GS and the tab for the busted pension fund.
    When he could capture taxpayer money to contribute to Bain’s returns, that’s what he did.”

    My radar zeroed in on “As taxpayers we didn’t exactly get any of that back, did we?” Most voters in the end, I presume, will do the same.

  • sunshinek67

    based on a technicality. A taxpayer funded “hand out” is a hand out any way you want to spin it. He got rich, his fired workers lost their pensions and their homes were upended, dreams gone. Meanwhile he was using illegals to landscape his rich vast lawns, and building a mansion fit for a king. Based on his religion, he thinks he is one.

    Why doesn’t he run as a moderate Democrat? Their voters like his kind, corrupt and unethical working the system to get rich quick. No wonder his name is synonymous with serial political loser AND “jobs killer”.

    Where are his 100,000 jobs created and where are his tax returns? You can spin to infinity in these RedState rooms to no avail as far as I am concerned. Fact is, the ABR electorate has won a caucus and a primary thus far and scheduled to win South Carolina,that is unless, one true conservative breaks out of the pack. If Tea Party decides not to endorse Romney, he will have a bigger mountain to climb.

  • bonnman

    They exists to create wealth for themselves, even if it means laying off thousands of people and shutting down American manufacturing, and thats the part you’ll never sell to the majority of voters.

  • Scope

    (1) The argument raised in Perry?s complaint focused on the collectors

    That doesn’t prove that he used out of state collectors. His argument can also be that because he he was barred by law from using out of state collectors hampered his ability to collect those signatures.

    (2) Perry had a far greater percentage of signatures thrown out than Newt

    Where is the proof of that. What is the number of signatures thrown out for Newt? Newt said he lost 1,500 signatures because they were collected by someone who committed fraud. He could still have lost any number of signatures from other collectors as well. How do you know how many signatures Newt lost?

    (3) Perry?s complaint used the lower 6000 number instead of the higher 11000 number

    The lawsuit used the number of 6,000 “valid” signatures. You said yourself in number 2 that Perry had a greater number of signatures thrown out than Newt. Are you saying unequivocally that Perry only submitted 6,000 signatures rather than the originally reported almost 12,000?

    (4) There was a report out there than out of staters were used.

    I’ve already addressed the “report out there” in my original post on another thread. The only report out there was a newspaper article, in which the writer simply states that Perry used out of state signature collectors, where he provided no proof, or even a claim of inside sources, to make that claim. Would you use that statement “There was a report out there that out of staters were used” in a court proceeding where you are representing a client? This coming especially from someone who only believes in the letter of the law, and crossing every T, and dotting every i.

    Not everyone is an owner of a Private Equity firm, that invests in billions of dollars in purchasing companies. My husband and I worked for a company at one time that hit some hard financial times when a new building was purchased to expand the business. The owner stopped taking any salary out of the company, and took some short term loans to get past the hard times, which he did. He never even considered laying anyone off, or cutting any benefits provided to the employees. My husband’s current employer took out a mortgage on his personal home in order to pay the employees their end of year bonuses, which are not promised, or a part of the benefits package. He is not obligated to pay bonuses to anyone. Both of those business owners could very easily decided to reap bigger profits, they could easily have layed off people, or they could have cut employee benefits in order to gain a bigger bottom line, but, they didn’t.

    I said in my post above that what ever Bain did was surely legal, but it doesn’t make it moral or ethical, in my opinion. I will judge a person who is responsible for hiring or firing people on the basis of moral and ethical character. Gaining the biggest profit possible, isn’t the goal of every business owner. For many, just being able to keep the doors open is a challenge. The optics, in the current economic situation with such high unemployment does not play well with the population. The Bain Capital business model isn’t the kind of capitalism I’m proud to endorse as a conservative. Because something is legal, it doesn’t mean it’s always a good thing. No, I’m not even close to an OWS’er, but they will have a field day with Romney if he is the nominee.

    Now, stop stalking my posts.

  • Scope

    what the facts are if we ever find out. Maybe you lawyers have some sort of codespeak when you write legal documents, but I’m not versed in that codespeak. I will wait to see what today’s lawsuit decision is. Hopefully that information will be forthcoming after the lawsuit is decided.

  • tyman

    I didn’t see your post, but that thought occurred to me yesterday.

    Oh it’s gotta be easier than that. Ever tried baking a pecan pie?

  • jakeofalltrades

    You do have a point and I acknowledge that you may very well be right. Hopefully the judge will issue findings of fact that speak to this issue.

  • Ann_W

    Most of the time the companies come out stronger.

  • nabell87

    WE GET ALREADY ?establishment? and mainstream media. Mitt is not to be touched in your eyes. We stand by and let Romney use his millions to tear apart his oponents but… how dare you… its taboo to say anything about Mitt?. Because gosh darn it? don?t you stupid conservatives and tea partiers know???? We want him to be our nominee. He?s off limits!

    Well I tell you I don’t care. I believe Mitt is a Myth.

    Wait wait wait. Let me rethink that.

    He’s not a myth he’s just a patchwork of lies sewn together in attempt to create a candidate the establishment can puppet around. They are convinced that his history of conflicting viewpoints will make him impenetrable to the Democratic Party, when really he is just an empty vessel that cannot create any passion or excitement. A person cannot be passionate or excited about ideas that aren’t their own. Mitt has proven he will say and do whatever it takes to get elected, the people don’t trust him and he will likely be the least exciting and arguably the most detrimental down ticket candidate our party has nominated in our recent history.
    Newt has told no lies. These attacks were inevitably going to come up. If anything it is noble to draw attention to it now rather than wait for the general. Imagine a point in which Romney and Obama are neck and neck, this could foreseeably be the bombshell that hiccups the campaign just enough to edge Obama in the big show. This gives us an opportunity to sort it out now. Let someone with less flip flops or plausible ammo step in or allow Mitt to come up with an effective defense. These are fair game facts. They play directly into the Obama’s already designed plan of attack. They will be effective, to think that that the American public will overlook this would be to have, and I hate to say it, TOO much faith in the intelligence of the American people. This is a fair attack at getting the party to rethink Romney’s default and so far unquestioned position of electability. Somebody had to have the guys to put on trial Romney’s chosen status. Look I personally believe that Newt is the only candidate capable of effectively articulating the things we all feel so passionately about. If dirty laundry is what you?re worried about with Newt we need to call the Hazmat team in to clean out Mitt’s closet. He has been on every side of every argument one can think of, and the fact that Romney supporters want to call Newt out on a policy here and there is laughable. The hypocrisy in sitting back and watching Romney attack Newt in Iowa from the left on welfare reform and then calling the party to arms when Newt highlights a legitimate question of Mitt?s electability is ridiculous.

  • bonnman

    Because the article and the study are at odds with each other. The study determines that PE is a gross job destroyer. It was inconclusive on whether greenfield job creation offsets those job losses but the article presents that as fact. It is fairly misleading.

    But thats not really the point, this is politics, not business 101. Obama has a heck of a hammer to pound Romney with and Romney nor his supporters have come up with a good defense.

  • streiff

    It doesn’t say that because it can’t say that. You can say that some of the companies that survive come out of it stronger.

  • acat

    (nothing further)

  • streiff

    from the article in the WSJ

    Bain, citing privacy reasons, declined to provide a list of the companies it invested in.

    I’m really tired of you and in an earlier era, before we were kinder and gentler, I would have shown you the door by now under my “no idiots and douches” policy. Push your luck and I still will.

  • Scope

    According to this article covering this mornings Perry et al Ballot lawsuit, this is the first paragraph-

    “Campaign officials for the four presidential candidates who failed to qualify for the VA primary testified Friday that they likely would have succeeded had they been able to have out of state residents circulate the petitions.”

    The judge will rule on the case by the end of today.

    Interesting that Perry’s attorney said that they have spent $91,000. on petition access in the various states, but, $45,000 of that was spent in VA.

    I’ll have a Glenfiddich with a splash of aqua, thank you.

  • http://www.timothy-bladel.com/ center77

    I really think a worse narrative would be the Disgraced former speaker who once shutdown the federal government. I am not too sure that it is not the almost shutdown over the summer that cause the Congress to receive their lowest numbers since Gallup has been recording it. If Obama is going to run against Congress, then Newt will make for a perfect bad guy? If the Chicago machine can wrap this Congress around Newt, then we would also be in huge trouble. I think with the baggage Newt brings, it would also be hard to beat Obama. This is the very reason I think Perry is by far the best candidate to face Obama, and I think if the party would unites behind his message of real Reform, we would see a positive coattail all the way down to local governments. This is my take at least, but I?ve been shocked by how the media dictates the narrative, and think it is why we need a candidate with a strong record, over someone with high name recognition or oratory skills.

  • Scope

    The Judge said they waited too long to file their case. Sh!t!

  • JSobieski

    nt

  • pttx333

    “Waited too long to file their case?” Like they had one ready and waiting to file the instant they were first denied???? It takes many hours to put together a complaint … you don’t just have one ready to … particularly in this case! Who could have imagined this to begin with????

    I may have to go over to one of the other sites to say what I truly feel and think. In the meantime, I’ll just study on whether to go buy a beer … and I HATE beer!

  • Scope

    And read the link I provided there. No out of state signature collectors were used, which hampered Perry from being able to collect the signatures required. That was also argued by the other candidates lawyers.

    Perhaps one won’t be so quick to post statements such as “The reason Perry had so many signatures thrown out was because he used out of state signature collectors,” when there was no proof of that at all.

    Yes, I’m well aware of “circumstantial evidence.” That’s why Casey Anthony walks as a free woman today.

  • aesthete

    Government size and fiscal issues don’t really motivate him. Romney is the only reasonably mainstream guy out there planning to increase the size of our military (unwisely, IMO), and that’s where Bolton is at. Pretty simple, really.

    (Just as an aside: we can call Bolton a lot of things — consistent and experienced being some of them — but “thoughtful”? C’mon, even Bolton fans know that’s not his selling point.)

  • aesthete

    nt

  • trevorb

    I’m not real surprised at that, though I was beginning to get my hopes up.

  • tyman

    It’s not like they didn’t try to get the signatures. File in the middle of getting the signatures?

    Do I understand this? Since Romney got 15,000 signatures, they didn’t have to be checked under the belief that he wouldn’t have enough thrown out to disqualify him? And Perry had roughly 11,000 and about half of his were thrown out? If Romney had the number of signatures thrown out that Perry did, he wouldn’t be on the ballot either.

    Have I understood that right?

    So Perry’s problem was assuming that the VA GOP was going to play fairly and that his signatures wouldn’t be thrown away at one swell foop.

    Is that right?

    I love the way the media is reporting that Perry just flat out failed to get the signatures.

    If this is the way Romney ran Bain Capital, I can just about guarantee that Obam a is just salivating to use whatever they have on him. They’re probably laughing themselves silly with the thought that Perry and Newt’s ads are nothing compared to what they have on Willard.

    I’m not a betting man, but are there any Romney supporters who feel a little uneasy about what they might have on him?

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    no—text

  • texashistorian

    WaPo story

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/virginia-politics/post/perry-gingrich-lose-lawsuit-to-get-on-virginia-primary-ballot/2012/01/13/gIQAyN0pwP_blog.html

    What I take from this is that they have a case, but it was denied because the state would not have time to prepare changed absentee ballots for mail out. So their suit had merit. Ah well, its just one state- not super critical to the final delegate count if its the only one.

  • JSobieski

    When I connect the dots in such ways, I at least provide the dots and document where they came from.

    You malign people like Rush and Levin, suggesting that they say what they because of Clear Channel. You do that solely on the basis of one data point. You provide no evidence that either of them are hard up for money, or that either of them have prior to 2012 sold out their principles for cash.

    The absence of evidence hardly stopped you from repeatedly making the claims against Rush and Levin. In that same threat yuo accuse me of making unsupported factual allegations?

    Really? Talk about throwing rocks while in a glass house.

    My assertion was based on 4 data points for which there was no contrary data point at the time.

    Your assertion was based on 1 data point (which is no longer true for Limbaugh by the way).

    Yet you rag on me for rushing to judgment? LOL

    .

  • aesthete

    Fur is Murder!!

    Make Love, Not War!!

    All are now approved conservative talking points, just in case Perry decides to jump on the Ron Paul train for the last one and become a vegetarian for that middle one.

  • pttx333

    can just grab 15,001 signatures and not one of them is checked. And 150 people could have signed all of them, and no one would check to see if that was the case. Uh huh, that’s just great, isn’t it?

    Poor Scope … bless her heart, I don’t blame her one bit for feeling the way she does. I wouldn’t vote in the primary either. This is not the America that I know.

  • Scope

    The Judge heard Perry’s case, and at that time invited other candidates to join the lawsuit. Three of them did. When the judge ruled that the ballot printing had to be held up, the state filed an emergency appeal to overthrow the Judges hold-up, as time was of the essence to get the ballots printed and mailed on time. The state filed their appeal just 3 days before today. The Perry Judge Glabney then came out with a document (I’m not a lawyer) saying that it was likely that the signature collection requirements weould be found unconstitutional. That gave everyone hope, as it was stated the jusde had to be leaning pretty heavily for the plaintiffs in order to issue that statement. There was reason to hope.

    Today he comes back with the ruling saying that they waited too long to file their lawsuit. I am not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that a case has to be “ripe” before anyone can file a lawsuit with respect to it. Just as many have argued that the Obamacare lawsuits in the state, or in the SC, may not be successful, as no one has been yet harmed by Obamacare. I don’t see how Perry et al could file a suit before they were actually harmed. Perry filed his lawsuit within a day or two of being denied ballot access.

    If the judge believed today that they waited too long, why would he have not believed that on the day he held up the ballots. I believe the state argued that point on that day. Maybe Jake can explain something to us, though I guess he really can’t read the judges mind.

  • trevorb

    just going to be one more obstacle in a long list of obstacle that stands between him and the nomination.

    Sorry if I sound discouraging, but I’m finding it more and more difficult to see how he can manage it.

  • Lesstressrx

    If Rick Perry gets out of the race due to a bad showing in S.C.
    the Tea Party looses.
    We are left with Newt or Mitten’s. Neither a long term TEA PARTY AMERICAN. Newts record and baggage will follow him and Mittens, the establishment, Fox News and the like will make him our candidate.
    We are desperate for Tea Party Express and/or Palin to jump in and tell the American people what the press won’t allow Perry to do.

  • pttx333

    sticking to my support for Perry until I can no longer do so. Remember, vote your choice in the primary and the nominee in the general. Well, my choice is and always has been you-know-who! ;-)

  • Scope

    to tyman. The state argued the “they waited too long” in the court hearing on Tues. yet he held up the ballot printing, came out with a statement and said that the law would most likely be found unconstitutional, What happened to change his mind between Tues. and today? If he had a problem with it 3 days ago, why not just let them lose the case 3 dys ago? I don’t know.

    I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but there are too many things about this whole thing that stink. First, you have the current Lt. Gov. Bolling acting as Romney’s campaign chair, who said in a past article on his own website that he “loaned” his campaign team to Romney. Of course Romney had plenty of in state, registered voters, to collect signatures for him. Then you have the VA GOP chair, Pat Mullins who has business ties to Romney. He is responsible for the care and feeding of 2 of Romney’s dressage horses. He owns an insurance agency, and he sells equine insurance which apparently is where Romney purchases the insurance for his very expensive (in the area of $200,000) horses.

    One of the founding partners of Bain Capital, T. Coleman Andrews III, is a long time political activist in VA, and ran for the Lt. Gov. seat in the 90′s. His father was also very active politically in VA, and started the VA John Birch Society here.

    I’ve just read today that VA Gov. McDonnell is going to SC this weekend to take part in some kind of rally there. Romney is the only one he campaigned for when Romney had a rally in NOVA several weeks ago. The Perry event I attended was not a campaign rally, it was a fundraising event for the VA GOP, that Perry had already committed to before he got in the race. He kept his commitment, and raised a goodly sum for the same VA GOP who didn’t do him any favors.

    Do I need to say “good old boy politics” is alive and well in VA?

  • avagreen

    So, Romney still supposedly gets money from Bain (nice journalistic artifice there, you say ?it has been reported? without stating where or by whom)
    Almost 13 years ago, Mitt Romney left Bain Capital, the successful private equity firm he had helped start, and moved to Utah to rescue the Salt Lake City Olympic Games and begin a second career in public life.

    Yet when it came to his considerable personal wealth, Mr. Romney never really left Bain.

    In what would be the final deal of his private equity career, he negotiated a retirement agreement with his former partners that has paid him a share of Bain?s profits ever since, bringing the Romney family millions of dollars in income each year and bolstering the fortune that has helped finance Mr. Romney?s political aspirations.

    The arrangement allowed Mr. Romney to pursue his career in public life while enjoying much of the financial upside of being a Bain partner as the company grew into a global investing behemoth.

    Perhaps those jokes Romney told about being ?unemployed? weren?t such a good idea. We are, after all, talking about a guy who inherited great wealth, then got even wealthier laying off thousands of Americans, and then continued to get even wealthier still thanks to seven-figure checks from his former firm.

    Wait, it gets worse. Romney apparently continues to receive these millions and pays a lower tax rate than the middle class pays on their income thanks to ?a tax provision favorable to hedge fund and private equity managers? ? a break

    A law professor who studies financial firms told the Times, ?These are options that are not available to the ordinary taxpayer. You continue to take your carried interest ? a return on labor, not capital invested ? and you?re paying 15 percent on it instead of high marginal income rates.?

    Taken together, Romney is still profiting handsomely from the layoffs he orchestrated over a decade ago, and he?s paying less in taxes that working families thanks to a special tax break he intends to keep. This probably won?t do much to bolster Romney?s ?man of the people? credentials.

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_12/romney_still_profiting_from_ba034188.php

    which owns a radio network that in some capacity works with (gasp, horror!) Fox Radio, and includes (gasp, horror!) Rush, Levin, and Beck,…
    Clear Channel has a contract with Bain as Bain’s major news network. Bain’s major stockholder is Romney……sortuv a conflict, neh? Clear Channel is also the company that carries many of the Fox news commentators…….a clue there?
    http://www.newshounds.us/2007/04/05/mitt_romneys_quiet_contributors_neil_cavuto_ignores_the_billionaire_candidates_connections_to_bain_capital_carlyle_group_kkr_and_clear_channel.php

    Some manner of dastardly nefarious conspiracy on the part of Mitt Romney to sabotage his own campaign? Actually, yes.

    I think it’s been an unintended consequence.
    “Taken together, Romney is still profiting handsomely from the layoffs he orchestrated over a decade ago, and he?s paying less in taxes that working families thanks to a special tax break he intends to keep. This probably won?t do much to bolster Romney?s ?man of the people? credentials.”
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_12/romney_still_profiting_from_ba034188.php

    Capish?

  • acat

    just the better ideas …

    .. hadn’t we better check our candidates for obvious stuff like this?

    Show me how, in the general, Romney defends against “You laid people off!”, especially given a hostile media.

    Mew

  • trevorb

    but he can’t seem to get much traction. I’m hoping he can inch up at least a little in South Carolina, but right now, the anti-romney candidate in that state is Gingrich.

    I think Santorum will be out after South Carolina, so we’ll see if it helps him or not.

  • pttx333

    really a fishy, fishy thing to me. You know, I’m so tired of everyone yelling “conspiracy theory” when all a person is saying is that “there is something rotten in Denmark” – or in this case, “rotten in VA” or anywhere else, as far as that goes. Just because something just doesn’t pass the smell test does not mean you think it is a conspiracy. Fishy crapola has been going on since time began!

    I’ve read several posts that say they’re going to vote for Paul in the primary to keep Romney from getting votes. How does that play with you? Paul will not win in the final analysis, and I feel all he would do is hand over his delegates from VA to Romney anyway, just to be the a$$ that he is!

    Bad day at Black Rock, yeppers, but the fat lady is a loooooong way from singing, Miss Scope, and we’re going to stand strong. That we are …

  • westcoastpatriette

    Go to my profile and click on my Spaghetti Recipe to see how we dealt with “it”.

  • trevorb

    a war of attrition. The field will end up narrowing soon enough. Perry’s got to hang on until then.

    Hopefully, Romney and gingrich will end up destroying each other, giving someone else a chance to get the nomination.

  • pttx333

    sometimes even more often than that. You’ve seen all the latest “idols” who fall by the wayside, then rally, then someone else pops up, etc. That is just the nature of the beast – maddening and fascinating at the same time. Guess I’m just a hard-head, cuz I’m not budging – am also extremely curious/nosy to see what happens tomorrow, next week, next month, and so on. Ever-changing winds bring new things to the forefront …

  • Scope

    not for any reason. As to Paul giving his delegates to Romney, I highly doubt that he will. Paul would not have had to give his delegates to McCain in 08, as McCain had enough to win the nomination. I’d bet big bucks that Paul doesn’t give his delegates away if he can help it. Heck he won’t even vote for the eventual nominee no matter who it is. I wonder what would happen if he collects a good number of delegates and refuses to give them to the nominee?

  • westcoastpatriette

    I’d be spitfire mad. Are you hearing any scuttlebutt about other Virginians reactions to this travesty? I’m a sincere believer that we reap what we sow and this will backfire on the sleaze in the VA GOP who are trying to cram Romney down our throats. Keep us posted on any blowback you hear about.

  • explodinghead

    If Romney can’t stand up to the other candidates in the primary, what chance do you think he has against the Obama machine, seriously?
    A candidate who is seen as a trust-fund baby, Wall St, elitist, is not going to be voted for by Joe-Schmoe independent,who’s out of a job. Particularly, when said candidate has been linked to closing down companies. It’s all about perception, and the narrative spun by the MSM. Romney has not been good at defending himself.
    he needs to prove that he can create jobs not destroy them. The average guy on the street has no idea about levergaed buyouts, but he will see the 30 second ad with a guy that looks just like him saying romney closed his company and took his job. It’s not fair, but that’s politics. We need to win.

  • pttx333

    akin to voting for the devil himself. I don’t know how it plays about delegates when someone loses … all I’ve ever seen is that the loser rolls them over to someone else. Don’t know what the actual rules are … interesting question. But Paul would be sure to screw up/destroy everything he can … just to shove everyone around. Lordy, how can his wife have stood by him all these years? You never see or hear her …

  • trevorb

    and I guess I’m pretty stubborn too. I threw my support behind Perry the day after Iowa, so I’m not one that jumps on the bandwagon.

    we’ve got about 8 days until the SC primary; we’ll see what happens between now and then.

  • trevorb

    I’d vote for Romney before i cast my vote for Ron Paul.

  • Scope

    As I’ve said elsewhere, the Judge ordered the state not to print or mail the ballots until the hearing today. The state argued that time was of the essence, and that they needed to get the ballots printed and mailed by the 21st. The Judge on Tues said that they could wait the few days, and that he would rule today, and that they would have 8 days to get the ballots printed and mailed. So, if he is saying that they had enough time on Tues., what changed between then and now 3 days later. The Perry lawsuit was filed within a day or two of not qualifying, when the ballots were definitely not printed. The Judge originally would not hold up the ballot printing. He took a week to have others join the suit, and held up having the hearing in a timely manner knowing that there was an absentee ballot issue. Also why release a statement on Tues., just after the State filed an emergency appeal in another court to have his ruling overturned, saying that there was a great chance that the law would be found unconstitutional. It all just doesn’t make sense to me.

  • texashistorian

    but it is what it is. What can we do? At the very least, going forward the rules will be better. I just don’t think it is that important in the larger scheme. For Perry, Newt, Santorum, Huntsman- if any of or all of them are still in the race on Super tuesday, that is just a certain amount less they have to spend.

    I have no idea on this next point, but I don’t see why the RNC can’t sanction VA in terms of delegates at the convention if it chooses to. Especially if one of those four is running strong after Super Tuesday.

  • Scope

    You are too sweet. The ruling just came down around 4ish so I don’t know what the reaction is except to say my husband and I are so furious, I won’t even say what my husband said about politics, and especially VA politics. He despises Cantor, our Rep. as much as I do. He was never very active or interested in politics until I got him interested. He was so impressed with Perry when we went to see him speak.

    From the local so-called conservative sites I read here, they were already on Romney’s team. They are the people who claim to be very knowledgable about what goes on in the inside here. Bearing Drift just endorsed Romney a day or so ago, like they needed to say it. They gloated when the ballot only included Romney and Paul, and started telling everyone to just stop whining and get in line. There is another site here called something like the Right Wing Liberal that thinks Romney is the greatest thing since sliced bread. There a some that have been as mad as me about what I consider disenfranchisement. Quite honestly, the only race I was interested in here in VA with this mess was Cuccinelli’s, and now I have no interest in that race either. The state is absolutely, definitely, without doubt going back to the Democrats in 2013. You heard it here first.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Ah, well, it’s just one state. And Newt’s out too! So it doesn’t really hurt much.

  • jakeofalltrades

  • jakeofalltrades

    That judge just bought himself a few congressmen and maybe a senator.

  • avagreen

    It WAS hilarious! How amusing. :)

  • westcoastpatriette

    from what I read the judge agrees that the VA statute will probably be found unconstitutional but still, he said it wouldn’t be fair to change the rules after the game so to speak. Normally, this kind of thing would not bother me as I am very much for enforcing the rule of law but in this case, it sounds like the VA GOP pulled some fast ones at the last minute and the way they scrutinized Perry and Newts ballots but not Paul and Romney is just wrong. I am no legal eagle but it just seems there should have been some way for Newt and Perry to demand that everyone be held to the same standard. And then knowing that so many Repub. officials in VA are working and shilling for Romney turns the integrity of the process on its head.

  • Scope

    JSobieski agreed that Perry had a strong case on the constitutional issue. Didn’t you, and the other legal types claim that if the judge halted the printing of ballots that the chances were really great that Perry et al would win? Didn’t you guys say that the judge would have not done that unless the higher chances were that he would rule in favor of the plaintiff’s? You are confusing me, please explain what you mean.

  • westcoastpatriette

    nothing more here.

  • westcoastpatriette

    sorry.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …but it seems time is about to expire.

  • jakeofalltrades

    the judge has complete discretion. His own sense of fair play controls the entire thing. He’s basically a king. And apparently he bought the argument that these candidates were trying to play it both ways – try to get in under the rules and then challenge later if it doesn’t work.

    Oh well. Virginia is just one state – these things are never that close.

  • lapert

    What holes does the opinion have – can you explain how the doctrine of latches doesn’t apply here?

  • pttx333

    This is where the old phrase “throw the bums out” comes into play! I would expect this fiasco to eventually appear at SCOTUS. What is your take on this mess? Boy, my “hinky meter” is going off big time! (Hinky being that eerie feeling on the back of your neck and your skin crawling when you KNOW something is sooooo wrong!)

  • jakeofalltrades

    JSob and JimmyG predicted it would apply. I predicted the judge would use his discretion to deny the defense of laches in a case that touches on voter rights.

    I think the judge changed his mind at the last minute or he would not have halted the printing of the ballots and then ruled against Perry.

  • snowshooze

    If he had.. that would have opened up room for speculation.

  • lapert

    I think he asked them to hold off so he could have the hearing but following the hearing found no basis for awarding the injunction. In the end, he would have had to find the 10,000 vote limit was unconstitutional (which he is clearly doesn’t) since none of them contend that they submitted 10,000 if you include ones from out of state collectors. It is not equitable remedy to assert they would have collected the 10,000 so should be on the ballot anyway so they had no remedy at this point in time available to them. even if he found the out of state requirement unconstitutional (which he would have), the time for that remedy would have been during the collection period.

    The conspiracy theorists here make conservatives look like emotional twits and shouldn’t be humored.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Since it didn’t go to trial, the appellate court doesn’t even need to look at the old case, because the standard of review is de novo.

  • Scope

    We can say hello to Senator Tim Kaine, former D VA Gov, more recently DNC chair. VA had become very purple in the past decade or so. The Republicans swept the top three positions in 2009, they recently took control of both the state House and Senate. Bye bye VA Republicans, and they are so arrogant and clueless they don’t even see it coming. And all this when they know VA is a very important swing state in the 2012 elections.

    At first I thought there may be some advantage in having an Obama appointed Judge in charge of the case, as the D’s scream constantly about disenfranchisement every where, every chance they can. I guess it’s only D disenfranchisement that must be supported.

    It’s too late for Perry et al to do anything about this now, but, it does serve the purpose to show just how shady, to put it mildly, that the VA GOP, and the Republicans in high positions are. Thank you Gov. Perry for hopefully waking up a sleeping and unaware VA electorate. Hey, if Perry was a dishonest sort, he could have had anyone sit and just keep writing in names from the phone book until he reached the magic number of 15,000. No one would have looked at the first signature. Gov. Perry is an honest and upright man with great character.

  • jakeofalltrades

    But again – it’s all discretionary.

  • jakeofalltrades

    After the amended complaint was filed.

  • jakeofalltrades

    I didn’t think clerks worked that fast…

  • ethos

    Define jobs. Define economy. Define free market. Define venture capitalism. Look at Romney’s resume.

  • Scope

    to say that out of state signature collectors were used. Read the facts, and then post something factual.

  • jakeofalltrades

    before we can really discuss it in depth.

  • pttx333

    something should be done … this doesn’t feel right, look right and, IMHO, is certainly morally wrong. Wonder if those involved could do it as a class, or if it is strictly Perry’s deal for appeal.

    I would make a huge deal out of the fact that if you gathered 15,001 signatures, none of them would be reviewed. Hells bells, as I stated earlier today, 150 people could have signed every last one of those and who would be the wiser? Apparently no one. Beyond pathetic …

  • jakeofalltrades

    It is well reasoned. I agree with it. It will not be successfully appealed.

    The judge would have ruled in Perry’s favor in August when he filed.

  • jakeofalltrades

    because no one challenged Mitt and Ron’s presence on the ballot, nor would anyone have had standing to do so.

  • jakeofalltrades

    1. No one submitted 10,000 valid signatures
    2. The Virginia petition circulator requirement is unconstitutional (but this is dicta because it was not necessary to reach the court’s conclusion)
    3. If Perry had sued earlier, the Court could have thrown out the petition-circulator ban and given Perry time to get enough signatures.
    4. Perry waited too long, and the primary is almost here, so the defense of laches applies.

    Courts usually don’t apply laches even when it’s valid. This is the kind of case they save it for. Again, I agree with the Court’s opinion, even if I hate the result.

    This is all the VA GOP’s fault. If we should be angry with anyone, it’s them, because they basically had discretion to let anyone they wanted on that ballot.

  • pttx333

    the rules which were changed in Nov. ’11 (I believe I’m correct on the month). But, what the hell do I know? Something just isn’t right, but I guess it will die where it sits tonight. What is, is – as my Mom used to say.

  • jakeofalltrades

    but we’ve had bright-line safe-harbor rules like that for a long time. They’re considered to be good things because they provide certainty – for a price.

  • pttx333

    n

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …must occur [and then be alleged] prior to filing.

    [more to be posted elsewhere]

  • snowshooze

    I find that interesting as the Judge would know his decision was going to cause considerable hardship somewhere.. if only mailing absentee ballots late.
    Now that doesn’t mean I think Judges are particularly considerate.
    But I think they should be.
    But I didn’t hear about that… so I stand corrected.

  • bk

    But Perry helped run his dad’s farm for a number of years. That could qualify as a small business.

    And Ron Paul had a private medical practice for 30-something years, so that certainly counts.

  • Scope

    that the issue of getting Perry on the ballot is now moot. He will not be on the ballot for the 2012 race. The state did a great job on proving their case that time is of the essence for the state to get the ballots mailed to the overseas people on time, which is the 21st, even though from his own words 3 days ago, he didn’t see that time constraint then. He outright said that 8 days was enough time to do their job.

    This may go back to the 08 election when the absentee ballots were actually mailed a few weeks late. John Freakin McCain filed a lawsuit because the absentee ballots were not mailed on time, yet they had to be back and counted in the shorter time period to be counted and valid. The court ruled here that absentee ballots must be mailed on time in future elections.

    I never want to deny any of our military members the right to vote, never, however, if the ballots are mailed late, can’t they extend the period of time to return those ballots if there is a delay for any emergency reasons? Do you know of any election anywhere when absentee ballots have decided an election? I don’t think that absentee ballots even had any play in the 2000 Fla. debacle. Aren’t elections held up often times because the vote is too close to call? Do you know of any races where the absentee ballots have ever changed the outcome of a race?

  • Scope

    why would Perry, or any of them appeal the decision, when it will do absolutely nothing to gain them anything, other than more useless legal fees?

    The way I see it is that they had a case on a constitutional basis, that could be won at a later date, probably long after the VA primary has come and gone. Why would Perry pay the cost to fight VA election laws? Shouldn’t the VA Republicans be fighting to pass legislation to change that law? I will bet you a gazillion and brazzilion dollars it never hits the VA legislature, and remains on the books as is,

  • Locke

    impulses led him to attack Romney from the left. It is too late for Gingrich to do the same, especially after his motor-mouth filibusters when questioned on the point by sympathetic interviewers.

    The many problems with Santorum have been well covered on this site.

    Given that in a Romney presidency, conservative leadership would have to come from elsewhere – Congress and the states – the question is not whether Romney is reliably conservative, but whether he is sufficiently liberal (and traitorous) to join with Democrats to oppose Republican initiatives.

    Personally, I find Romney, judged by that standard, to be someone I can support, enthusiastically if the alternative is any Democrat.

  • jakeofalltrades

    The judge was basically forced to apply laches. He couldn’t very well add Perry’s name to the ballot without at least an allegation of 10,000 qualified signatures.

    The only remedy the Court could possibly fashion would be to permit additional signatures to be gathered. But absentee ballots have to be mailed out in time for the primary. The state has a very substantial interest in having its elections occur on schedule and with the expected time for absentee voting. The balance of the equities in this case is such that Perry should not delay the election.

    If Perry had sued earlier, there would have been time. The conclusion is that laches here is less an affirmative defense than it is a description of what happened. There is simply no time to gather further signatures and no justification for adding him to the ballot without them.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Very good though. They did have to allege injury, which was Perry not being on the ballot.

  • Scope

    and you are really mad now. Scope is just an idiot who malignes people and trashes people and kills babies while she’s at it. Get over your damn self with your high and pious claim to being the most intelligent person here, because you are a highly educated lawyerrrr. You were wrong, you were proven wrong, and now your madddd.

    Go away, Stop stalking me. Stop maligning my “opinions” because you do not share them. I barely read your post past the unvarnished anger displayed. Get off my case. Stop stalking my posts. I don’t live my life around what Rush Limbaugh and Mark Levin have to say. They are not any more perfect than you are.

    If you respond to any of my posts again, I will slam you the same way you consistently try to slam my “opinions.” I mostly try to ignore you, I suggest you do the same.

  • jakeofalltrades

    FYI

  • jakeofalltrades

    As you said, circumstantial evidence isn’t proof.

  • jakeofalltrades

    just thought I’d make that clear.

  • lapert

    I did not say out of state collectors were used, I suggest if they had and those got them over the 10,000 limit they may have had a better argument.

    I have read the facts and the decision – it is you who clearly are over your head when it comes to understanding the legal briefs.

    The judge did not change his mind between Tuesday and today, he held the hearing and ruled on the injunction. There is no conspiracy here, just the legal system working.The ruling had nothing to do with supposed rule changes by the state GOP, Perry didn’t allege that he had submitted more than 10,000 signatures that were invalidated below , 10,000 (Gingrich did by the way), the Lt. Gov and Attorney General may have done some posturing but in the end both played their proper roles, and while the outcome may not be ideal it is just.

  • lapert

    For some reason my link to the ruling above doesn’t seem to work: http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-01/340069800-13125153.pdf

  • lapert

    He didn’t halt printing but had the election board ask the local precincts to hold off on ordering the printing (the state board doesn’t have the power to force precincts to do that and the judge could order them not to as they aren’t party to the suit).

  • jakeofalltrades

    Since I had not read anything but the original complaint.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Someone told me the printing was halted. My brain went:

    TRO > Likely to prevail on the merits

  • Scope

    that you are “one” of my favorite people here. I love your humor, your style, and your opinions on things. Please don’t apologize, there is no necessity for it. You at least said earlier today, before the ruling that my train of thought on the whole matter “might” be correct. I appreciated that more than you will know. Peace brother. Now buy me my drink please. I’ll give you my PO Box address, the nice lady at the post office will call me as soon as it arrives, long before the ice melts. LOL

  • lapert

    The injury was the violation of their first amendment rights through the inability to use out of state collectors – which began as of the first date of the collection period. If they had filed then the injunction would be granted (and ultimately a ruling likely in their favor) allowing them to use out of state collectors to get the requisite signatures. Without the 10,000 signatures at all, they cannot even demonstrate that they are being held off the ballot due to the violation of their first amendment rights.

    That is why Perry’s case needed the second section challenge the 10,000 votes and why from the start I didn’t like their chances – because as the court noted that requirement is clearly constitutional.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Just giving credit where credit is due. Nice.

    Also – I figured out that printing was never halted (I got that idea from someone here…), the judge only asked for it to be to prevent senseless waste.

    Since I mistakenly thought an injunction halted printing, that’s where I got the idea that the judge thought Perry would prevail in his case (because otherwise, no reason for an injunction). In fact, there was no injunction. That means the judge didn’t flip.

    I apologize if I offended him and he’s reading (unlikely). And for leading us all astray on that.

  • jakeofalltrades

    I’ll just have one of the VRWC satellites retasked to beam you your beverage. Though that does mean an entire city will miss our mind-control broadcasts for about an hour, I feel you’ve earned it.

  • Tbone

    and the Bain Buddy Barbarians.

  • jimmyg

    Last Wednesday I wrote the following regarding Gov. Perry’s amended petition:

    “It appears the Court will find a constitutional violation. That is not the ballgame. In my opinion the weakest part of the Plaintiff?s response to the defendant?s arguments urging the Court to deny the relief sought by Perry is the Defendant?s response to the Plaintiff?s argument that the plaintiffs should have sought the assistance of the Court earlier, or the Doctrine of Laches.

    ‘Perry argues that the injury occurred when he was denied a ballot spot. I presume the State will argue that the injury to Perry occurred when he filed his declaration as a candidate. That is, at that time he knew that he could not use out of state petition circulators.

    Perry will argue that Laches does not apply because the State has
    not been prejudiced in that the ballots have not been printed.”
    http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2012/01/10/court-explains-reasoning-on-va-absentee-ballot-court-order/#comment-63146

    Simply stated, the doctrine of laches, as applied to the facts presented to the Court, is as follows: Perry waited too long to bring his lawsuit. He knew when he filed his candidacy in VA that he could not use out of state petition circulators. He should have sued then, not when he was denied a place on the ballot. Every Lawyer on this site new this, including FP’ers who hold a law license.

    This is another epic failure on the part of the Perry campaign. The Perry campaign staff has failed him at every turn. Knowing that the campaign was well ,it was malpractice on the part of his campaign to not get him on the VA ballot, and only contest one delegate spot in Illinois.

    You cannot blame this stuff on Fox News, Hot Air, Michelle Malken, or others, the blame falls squarely on Rick Perry for hiring these mopes.

  • sunshinek67

    nt

  • jakeofalltrades

    Perry’s lawyers made my ripeness argument due to the prior non-enforcement and uncertainty. Go ahead, read the Court’s opinion.

    You were right, and I’ve given you credit for that in multiple comments.

  • Scope

    “In the end, he would have had to find the 10,000 vote limit was unconstitutional (which he is clearly doesn?t) since none of them contend that they submitted 10,000 if you include ones from out of state collectors.”

    If you include the last part where you say “if you include ones from out of state collectors.”

    The judge on Tues. stopped the ballots from being printed and/or mailed until his hearing of today. On Tues., after that hearing, the State filed an emergency appeal in the 4th district court. They argued that time was of the essence, and asked that another court throw out Judge Glabney’s ruling on the injunction. Today Glabney turned 180 degrees, and said that the plaintiff’s didn’t file a timely lawsuit. He had that very same information, and the argument from the State on Tues., but for whatever reason didn’t rule against the plaintiffs then, but did so today apparently based on the same info he had on Tues.

    Don’t tell me that I have reading comprehension problems when it is in fact you that seem to have missed a few steps/facts in the case.

    Yes, you’re buddy Ron Paul is still on the ballot. Stop sweating it.

  • sunshinek67

    ;)

  • jakeofalltrades

    The best you can do is responsibly select experts and rely on them to carry out their duty.

  • pttx333

    some of his stuff … go find his post that begins with “For $20.00″ and read the whole thread top to bottom … I’m still down in the floor!!! What would we do with the lovable guy who makes us laugh all the time! And who says what we REALLY want to say! HAHAHAHA ;-)

  • Scope

    words matter huh. As to my drink, you could just have one of the black helicopters lower it down to my door. I’ll be waiting patiently. That is as long as they don’t plant any microphones or cameras on the glass, or in the ice cubes.

  • lapert

    reading comprehension. I said:
    “since none of them contend contend…”
    See, I said they didn’t claim to use out of state collectors to get over 10,000 signatures. If they had, they may have had a case here.

    As for your little sequence of events – if you read your own sentence you would clearly see there was no 180 degree change.

    Here are your words:
    “The judge on Tues. stopped the ballots from being printed and/or mailed until his hearing of today”

    So, ignoring that imprecision in your characterization of what he ordered, you note that it was just until he ruled on the hearing today. And lo and behold, he ruled. Correctly I may add given the facts presented in the briefs. Your little hissy fit is nothing more than the whining of someone who lost by the rules – this kind of emotional response is what you expect from liberals but unfortunately is increasingly common among some who think themselves conservative.

    As for Ron Paul, that loon is not my guy, my guy isn’t on the ballot either and will likely be out of the race before the end of the month. But you know what, I know that is the way campaigns go and I accept it without blaming everyone else, accusing them all of wild conspiracies or threatening to take my ball and go home.

  • jakeofalltrades

    XD

  • jakeofalltrades

  • jimmyg

    I read the opinion and the court started and ended with denying Perry’s claim based on the doctrine of laches, that is what the Court hung its hat on in denying Perry’s claim.

    It was a silly lawsuit, which only brought unwanted publicity to Perry illuminating the fact that the Perry campaign was incompetent. I was able to defend VA from my seat at home and I not that sharp.

    As to Perry and his campaign staff, this has been evident to me since he lobbed the “Ponzi scheme” grenade refering to SS, and had no plan to reform SS. Perrystated we should have a conversation about SS. We have been having a conversation about SS since 1983 when Pres. Reagan attempted to deal with SS, and in 2005, when Pres Bush presented his plan to the public. We know how that went. If you are going to talk about SS being a Ponzi Scheme, you better have a plan to fix it.

    That is just one example the list goes on and on, the VV summit, with the Rev. Billy Bob, talking about Mormonism, after introducing Gov. Perry, the lack of preparation for the debates, maybe its not his fault, but someone is to blame for putting him out on the national stage without being prepared.

    I say this realizing that Gov. Perry started his campaign as the only candidate with the tools, money and record to challenge Gov. Romney.

    Once this is over, I do not know how Gov. Perry will ever be able to run as a national candidate again. He is the latest version of Dan Quayle.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Since you just proffered that litany.

  • jakeofalltrades

    Page 10, last paragraph:

    Central to plaintiff’s argument against laches is their contention that an injury-in-fact did not arise until December 22nd and 23rd, when they were denied a place on the ballot. They argue that they “timely sough relief at a time actual injury occurred” and “[t]o have brought this suit before they were declined a position on the ballot would have only presented the court with a hypothetical issue and subjected the claim to a ripeness defense.”

  • jimmyg

    Perry’s defense of ripeness was not relevant, because Perry suffered the constitutional injury when Perry filed his candidacy, not when he was denied a ballot spot. In other words this case was ripe for intervention by the Court when he filed his candidacy, not when he was thrown off the ballot.

    Perry was required to file a lawsuit as soon as possible after he filed his declaration of candidacy in Virginia.

    In order to file the lawsuit with a straight face, after he was denied a ballot position, the Perry camp had to say that the lawsuit only became ripe when he was denied a spot on the ballot.

  • jakeofalltrades

    I can’t think of any recent injury that would get anything more than rational basis if that. Can you?

  • http://www.RightFace.us dkolonia

    of nominating McCain and Dole so Romney would fit right in with that group.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    since Harding. The issue that we tea partier conservatives need to answer is how best to upset that trend.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Bain attacks are so off-putting to so many conservatives and fair-minded people of all stripes. A demagogue could point to aspects of any candidates life and speculate about when they stopped beating their wife.

  • sunshinek67

    …….. ;)

  • carolynr

    These people do not like Romney. I know I have a Conservative district in SC…but they do not like him. Rather than read the script…I do what I have always done..cold call. Tell them my name, where I am from and that I am their neighbor….which I am. I ask them if I can tell them my PERSONAL experience with Rick Perry. They are all ears.

    People don’t like robo calls…I can tell you that…they resent it. One thing they want answered. Explain the in-state tuition AGAIN…and then tell us what your solution is to the problem. They don’t see to have a problem with the law being changed…they just don’t want it broken. When I tell them about the Federal Agenda these days…and tell them about the suit in FL about in-state tuition…they seem to understand..tied together with what is happening in Arizona.

    BTW…the splintering in the party…really is due to Paul…as you well know being on the blogs.

  • carolynr

    Sorry…but they are. People who have been in business…understand this. I notice that the press has changed the title of Bain from Venture Capitalist to Equity Investors. Does that sound like shades of Obama. I guess they didn’t like the vulture business.

    All one has to do is look at how Romney approaches a situation. Does he stand by principles or ethics? Not really…he says and does anything that will sway the voter at that particular time. One could diagnose him a bi-polar…except it is premeditated. Why did he run to the left of Kennedy…to get votes….I could go on…you know the dog and pony show.

    Now..all of a sudden..he’s the white knight who comes in to rescue companies and get rich as a byproduct of his good intentions. PLEEEEZE. True venture capitalists invest in NEW upcoming businesses. No…he waited until they were weak and chock full of assets…and then Bain decided to help. Notice that when he talks about his successes…he usually names three. What about the rest?

    Romney approaches every situation in a like manner…how will it benefit me. Do I have to lie to get my point across. So…like I have said on numerous threads…the man lies and is a carbon copy of Obama.

  • carolynr

    and this is ALL OVER THEIR BLOGS.

  • carolynr

    as the anti-romney

  • jakeofalltrades

    It appears to have already been co-opted and turned into the Ronulan party.

    The three legs of Ronulanism:

    No Military
    No Money
    No Jews

  • lineholder

    that I’ve been trying to get across for a while now. Where SC is concerned, the laws they have in place prohibit applying to a state-funded college without proof of citizenship, international student visa, or some other documentation proving that the applicant is in this country legally.

    What I had heard from a few family members who live there is that they had a lot of questions about Perry’s position…the “heartless” comment had clouded the waters a bit, and they wanted to know that he stood firmly on his position that, in light of failure by the federal gov’t to enforce the law, this has become a states rights’ issue and each state has to determine how they will address it.

    Maybe this is his opportunity to clear up any confusion that still remains.

  • tjms

    tea party this morning. One of the pastors was speaking, he said in this election they all agree that while social issues are important. The most important issue this time is the economy and who can prove the best job creation record. Of course I am paraphrasing, as I do not remember the “exact wording” but this was the jest of it. He said he had left the other meeting to come speak at the tea party event and would be returning to the other meeting. So as far as I know they have not announced anything. If so hasn’t been reported locally around here.

  • acat

    which just proves they’re lying crapweasels who deserve the blamstick.

    Mew

  • carolynr

    Look…Romney has already been “had” by Obama. What do you think all this OWS was about? This is an Obama effort. Who is the one that epitomizes the Rich…can you say Romney. With the country in a recession…who has a target on their behind…can you say Romney. But…let’s not stop there. We need votes in the Republican Party to take over what Obama bought with the unions…IF THAT IS POSSIBLE. Romney is anti-immigration…he has no plan. Funny…his father was born in Mexico…but that’s for another day. We need the Latino vote…sorry…but we do to win.

    The man has lost in his political life…and the one office he did hold…he gave Obama the blueprint for his healthcare plan…another vehicle to feed the unions…not healthcare. Want to wait until the Big Dig is brought up by Obama? His fiscal know-how will go out the window on that. The man is NOT Conservative. The man has lied in the debates and to the voters when trying to win elections. Notice…I did not use flip flop.

    More importantly…he will grow this government until it implodes. He does not like taking a stance that will cause him any pain…and that is what leaders do. He is the middle of the road kind of guy that does NOTHING.

    We don’t want to be “fence sitters” and that is what middle of the road people do….they do nothing. You want someone in office that will win the Independents over…we heard that with McCain…and McCain beat Romney.

    His 59 point plan DOES NOTHING to save SS or Medicare. It does nothing to reform the tax code. So..mark my words…the man will sign onto global warming. The man will not seek energy independence..which we can now achieve. AND THIS IS IMPORTANT. He wants to impose a VAT Tax from raw material to finished product…and then add another tax when you pay for it. How did that work in Europe? THEY ARE BROKE.

  • Scope

    The three legs of Ronulanism. LOL

    I agree, and have agreed before with carolynr’s claim that the splinter in the party has been caused by the Paultard. His supporters, and unfortunately some other’s with low IQ’s, are out touting him as the most electable because he has brought many of the Democrats over to his side, even as a majority of us are crying for closed primaries. The element of D’s he has attracted are the very one’s Reagan said must necessarily go their own way.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Could this primary get any more bizarre? I think not.

  • sunshinek67

    what a joke, “job creation” wow, can’t wait to hear Mr. Erick’s assessment on this one. Big Government Spender Santorum.

  • tjms

    I was listening to the speakers at the saddleupforum. They just had a speaker on Tito Munoz. WOW, everyone should listen to this guy. He is originally from Columbia. His speech was great and brought tears to my eyes. He ripped Obama and Romney. I think they will have the videos of all speakers up after the event.

  • pttx333

    the hell was at this straw poll? I had never even heard of it until this a.m. when I read about here on RS! Can’t wait to see videos of this atrocity!

    Just got through soaking in some bubbles to get the stench of some trolls here, and dammit, now I gotta go back and soak some more – right after I barf!

  • jakeofalltrades

  • tjms

    the tea party straw poll isn’t until after 5. This was the meeting of pastors I believe that she is talking about. Joe Barton was just talking about Gingrich at the event. He said a few things about Gingrich, lastly about bringing the impeachment charge against Clinton. didn’t pay alot of attention to him. But then he said to vote for Gingrich, or he couldn’t blame you since in Texas voting for one of the Texans! Thought that was funny. The previous speaker though was amazing. Tito Munoz, he is the hispanic teaparty leader I think. He was great. Later they say they will have all the footage online at their saddleuptexas site. Worth a watch of him for sure. I have changed my candidate for congress watching this. I watched a guy this morning from Magnolia that I had not researched, Glen Addison. He is a big federalism candidate. If you haven’t heard of him you should check him out.

  • trevorb

    not worried about Santorum; I don’t see him lasting much longer. He’s already going downhill in South Carolina.

  • carolynr

    OK Mike…my second choice for POTUS if Perry does not get in is Gingrich.
    Santorum…not another GWB…does not have the experience..but he knows how to SPEND.

    What has happened to America? Why did those people who live in that state not back the man with a record?

    So…I will not vote for Santorum either…not someone who manipulates people with God. I watched some of that crap in FL…and I hated it. Funny…he’s pro-life…but where is he when he has his hands IN MY POCKET FOR MONEY? btw…another union goon.

  • pttx333

    what mass of rocks these folks live under? HAHAHAHAHAHA ;-)

  • pttx333

    I know they were approaching it from an evangelical side. BUT, and this is a big BUT – Perry is ALL things! What on God’s green earth can they be thinking? I live in the Houston area and don’t read the Houston “Comical” – haven’t bought that rag in years and years. So, guess I’m sorta out of the loop about a lot of local doings. But, this one transcends anything I could have envisioned!

    I will do some research on Addison. One guy that I dearly love is Ted Poe – lived in his district for a short time, and very proudly voted for him. Was familiar with him from all of my years in the legal field – what a fantastic judge he was! We have a lot of homework to do, huh.

    Thanks for your comment, tjms – I really appreciate all tips, suggestions, etc. – except from the $^*(& trolls who come here to stink up the place!

  • pttx333

    nt

  • tjms

    Dan Patrick is reminding them that this race will not be over until May. That there is no way all delegates will be given before so not to give up on your candidate. Dewhurst did not show up for his slot today. The guy that was hosting publicly told him to quit hiding from the voters. I sure hope Dewhurst does not get elected, even though I would love for him to not be Lt. Gov.

  • No Longer For Perry

    Watching the conference online now. I wonder how many of our RedState friends are there at Minute Maid Park in Houston.

  • tjms

    results? i have been watching most all day and have not seen or heard any results. It was said earlier no results would be released until the closing, are they posted somewhere?

  • pttx333

    ‘fraidy cat weasel!

    I will NEVER give up on Perry … the only way I will do that is if he says to do so. Dan Patrick is a good guy – I like Michael Berry also. Good guys.

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/gop-presidential-primary/204177-150-social-conservatives-vote-to-back-santorum

    [yick]

  • acat

    and is an accurate description of Ron Paul’s cultlike followers.

    Mew

  • avagreen

    Mitt Romney-led firm made millions and left S.C. plant with crushing debt
    Posted: Saturday, Jan. 14, 2012

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/01/14/v-print/2926059/romneys-bain-capital-made-millions.html

    W\\

  • tjms

    tell where you see any results. I have watched and there is no mention. Nowhere on their site do they have any results. It specifically states that no results will be announced until after all voting is completed. So if you can’t show where these results are,I assume you are trying to just get people upset.

  • No Longer For Perry

    Maybe different than yours. As I stated earlier the final results are not due until the 5 to 6 PM timeframe according to the site. I was basing that winning remark was from the speaker that said 75 percent of his group went for Santorum. That’s all, buddy. Nothing to get “upset” about as you said.

  • tjms

    the teaparty event. So your headline is just misleading.

  • No Longer For Perry

    So, sue me. Maybe you could find a bored person with paralegal experience to type it up for you.
    Results And Film On Our 5 PM Broadcast

  • pttx333

    that the conference is 150 people from all over the country – not just Texas, thank God above. The vote we heard about for Santorum is from the evangelicals’ poll, or so I understand. Also that the final results won’t be known until 5:00 pm (CTS), I think. So, we shall see.

  • pttx333

    j

  • http://www.doctor-bob.biz rsklaroff

    …the intensity of events is uncanny!

  • pttx333

    Saddle Up Conference being held now. They are tallying the votes now but will return with the results around 5:00. Apparently, they are going to have videos of the events as there is a link to such.

    http://saddleuptexaspoll.com/2012/01/watch-saddle-up-online/

    I read somewhere in my “travels” earlier that the evangelical vote for Santorum was based on electability! Doesn’t say much for them!!!

    Bah!!! Will be awaiting the normal straw poll count – but if this involves only 150 folks from all around the country, what in the hell can that mean? Not a lot to me – don’t know about y’all.

  • duramater

    excuse today over at Hot Gas and commented on that in another thread. Shameful, I say.

    Say, I’ve been checking in at the link for the straw poll at various times today but nothing shows up. Going there again now but wonder about the functionality of the livestream that was supposed to be present throughout the day.

  • jakeofalltrades

    I had the Constitutional injury wrong, as jimmyg has pointed out elsewhere.

  • greyeagle

    I agree, what were those Pastors thinking. Santorum has not qualified in several of the large states. True he is conservative, but he is a big government conservative. What a slap to Perry to meet in his state and then choose Santorum.

  • greyeagle

    There are plenty of conservatives who are not moderate in Florida. Especially in the Central Part and northern part.

  • greyeagle

    Perry could not file a case on Christmas, when a lot of people were off, plus it took the Judge too long to hear the case.

  • greyeagle

    Gore went to court to try and keep the Military absentee ballots from being counted. Standard Democrat BS.

  • greyeagle

    Then the Tea Party better get in gear and endorse Perry.

  • pttx333

    said they had seen/heard an interview where the pastors figured Santorum was “more electable” and because of his evangelical beliefs! This whole world is upside down, inside out and plain NUTS!

    Yes, the whole stinking mess is a huge insult to Perry (intentionally), and I don’t believe for a second that there is a true poll – either the earlier evangelical or the later Tea Party poll. I know full well how polls can be and are skewed!

    Also, this faux Texas Straw Poll has an option to vote by texting and both of us know how those polls go, and who they go for. Massive fraud to the max!! (I’m speaking here of the Tea Party poll and not the earlier evangelical poll.)

    All I know, greyeagle, is that I’m sticking with Perry regardless of any poll or what anyone else says or thinks. I trust my instincts more than anything else right now. I’ve had these instincts for 71 years now, and I do not plan to ignore them!

  • westcoastpatriette

    was attending the meeting of Evangelicals in Texas. The piece was written by Erick himself so hopefully he will write something about it so we can get a better idea what actually went on.

    I have never been so frustrated in my life. The party is going to keep it up until it has a mental breakdown along the lines of Multiple Personality Disorder.

  • znjs

    From his twitter account – Full disclosure: due to more pressing matters I could not participate in this morning’s vote and I dissent from the result.

  • westcoastpatriette

    !

  • pttx333

    Erick wasn’t there this morning and he dissents from the result. Good man! I wouldn’t be within 100 yards of the results of any of it!!!

    I’m sticking to my guns, wcp, and will never ever give up either. Ain’t happenin’ – I’m in like Flynn!

  • trevorb

    me wish I had your confidence, Pttx.

  • sunshinek67

    I’m through with all of them. Will never look at any of them the same. When I see Tony “David Dukes” Perkins, and James Dobson on television. I will see BIG GOVERNMENT.

    There issue was “electability”. Aaron Gardner on Twitter said in so many words social and fiscal conservatives are a thing of the past. We might as well get used to this, the electorate wants status quo, both majority of Democrats with Obama and Republicans with Mitt-Newt-RickS.

    Santorum crowds in South Carolina have been large since he arrived after NH, 400 today at one event I read on Twitter. His RCP averages are on the downtick, but that was prior to these evangelical endorsements. I sure hope Governor Perry cleans him out in debates next week for being a proponent of BIG GOVERNMENT. He has absolutely nothing to lose at this point. Stupid electorate. Like I said earlier, does anyone see the irony in that?

  • freedom555

    is to appear as moderate and reasonable as possible ….and to reignite the economy!

    Surprised ? Obama and the Democrats are trying to win this election…AND the one after.

    Conservatism won’t win without understanding how Liberals are approaching this fight.

  • avagreen

    the man that has some questionable actions when he was a governor. this is just one google search. There are more.
    http://www.clubforgrowth.org/news/pr/?id=446

    I remember being disappointed then, too, with their endorsement of Huck…..who of course did not win the nomination. ;)

  • sunshinek67

    to see if his numbers will go back up. He is stagnate right now avg 15 I think on RCP.

    I will still take Governor Perry’s endorsement of vets, Medal of Honor recipients, Bobby Jindal over all of the other candidates’ endorsements combined. Romney’s endorsements to me are phony and paid for, Santorum’s endorsements from endorsers who claim to be conservative create a conflict with the candidate’s record, thus negating credibility in my mind. I cannot remember anyone significant endorsing Newt.

    I think Sarah Palin & the Tea Party movement leaders are going to be regretful for not backing the only candidate on that stage that represents their views of social and fiscal conservative values. If it is about electability, all of the candidates, save for Jon have all lost elections or lost position in public office. Rick Perry is a true winner.

    You know avagreen, I am a winner in this deal either way, either with President Perry or Governor Perry. Too bad the ignorant poll fearing electorate doesn’t want tried and true results for the rest of the country. Texas is a major entity, very large state landwise and population, huge treasure trove of natural resources.

    I’ve never been a secessionist, but…. ;)

  • snowshooze

    Now why is that?

  • Locke

    nt

  • acat

    Look, the fact is the media failed… but we already knew that.

    Further, I don’t accept the “from the left” canard. The attack is not about whether capitalism is great or not, it’s about whether Romney can make the sale on the issue of jobs … and he’s gonna struggle.

    End of the day, I want the best candidate we can get, and .. Willard ain’t it.

    Mew

  • clowngirl

    There’s an article in the Washington Post that details a specific bait and switch scheme the writer says he he saw employed by Bain — and says many others witnessed the same.

    The article is “When Romney ran Bain Capital, his word was not his bond ” and it’s written by William D. Cohan. He says he worked as a deal adviser on Wall Street for 17 years and says Bain “Seemingly alone among private equity funds” would try and game the system — by “offering the highest prices during the early rounds of bidding- only to try to low-ball the price after it had weeded out competitors.”

    Cohan goes into some detail to demonstrate why this is dishonest and totally against the spirit of the process which “requires honor and character to work properly” and why it is so damaging to the prospects of the company.

    If Bain is actually guilty of this type of dishonest bait and switch – then this is a practice that Republicans should absolutely condemn.

    It’s liberals who assume that every businessman will behave like as much of a scumbag as the law allows, and it’s conservatives who expect ( I would hope) business people to conduct themselves honestly and honorably and who hold those people and businesses accountable (by holding them up to public scrutiny and rightful moral outrage)

    The article paints a picture in which most private equity firms deal honestly and decently and which Bain was very much the exception.

    In our ardent defense and support of free enterprise we should not fall into the trap of condoning immoral acts — and give the left the opportunity to paint all of capitalism as like the sleazy company we defended.

  • clowngirl

    There’s an article in the Washington Post that details a specific bait and switch scheme the writer says he he saw employed by Bain — and says many others witnessed the same.

    The article is “When Romney ran Bain Capital, his word was not his bond ” and it’s written by William D. Cohan. He says he worked as a deal adviser on Wall Street for 17 years and says Bain “Seemingly alone among private equity funds” would try and game the system — by “offering the highest prices during the early rounds of bidding- only to try to low-ball the price after it had weeded out competitors.”

    Cohan goes into some detail to demonstrate why this is dishonest and totally against the spirit of the process which “requires honor and character to work properly” and why it is so damaging to the prospects of the company.

    If Bain is actually guilty of this type of dishonest bait and switch – then this is a practice that Republicans should absolutely condemn.

    It’s liberals who assume that every businessman will behave like as much of a scumbag as the law allows, and it’s conservatives who expect ( I would hope) business people to conduct themselves honestly and honorably and who hold those people and businesses accountable (by holding them up to public scrutiny and rightful moral outrage)

    The article paints a picture in which most private equity firms deal honestly and decently and which Bain was very much the exception.

    In our ardent defense and support of free enterprise we should not fall into the trap of condoning immoral acts — and give the left the opportunity to paint all of capitalism as like the sleazy company we defended.

  • znjs

    Hope this works, never embedded a video before.

  • jakeofalltrades

    to dump – awesome!

    Stop Mitt before He Kills Again!!!!

  • znjs

    Also having John Lithigow do the voice-over was a stroke of genius given his Dexter role.

  • jakeofalltrades

    he he he

  • jakeofalltrades

    that Colbert be invited to do a Redstate diary (on this issue).

  • romansdaughter

    That is awesome! Mitt is a serial killer! LOL By the way I am just going to display my ignorance but who is Colbert?

  • znjs

    His show The Colbert Report comes on right after The Daily Show. He pretends to be an over-the-top conservative host, basically a wacky Rush/O’Reilly impression. He’s pretty hit or miss IMO and more misses then hits, but every now and again he really hits on an issue and does a good job of showing the absurdity of our politics.

    This ad in particular was a 3 for 1 shot – he’s been ripping on Super Pacs and the idea that they are independent from the candidates they’re supporting for for a while now (the Pac name is now The Definitely Not Coordinated With Stephen Colbert Super PAC since he’s pretending to consider to run for president and can’t be in charge of the Pac; him and Stewart did a bit on him handing over the reins of the Pac and how he certain won’t be working in coordination with them anymore) . He’s also hitting on the Corporations are People idea, another one he mentions a lot. And of course it’s mocking over-the-top political ads (Mitt Romney is a serial killer!).

  • Locke

    ground that it has an adverse effect on a class of “victims”, without even the pretense of identifying a specific wrongful act.

  • snowshooze

    Romney has a serious problem here.
    I read that his style makes vultures look like songbirds.
    I gotta point out this:
    Romney cannot withstand personal confrontation. He cracks. We all saw it in the debates.
    Anything that is not scripted, that takes him away from quoting the Republican Bible… he blows it every time.
    So, considering he will be running against both Obama and brand X..
    Romney is a lost cause, even now.

  • clowngirl

    Unless someone is threatening to throw Romney in jail, simply refraining from breaking the law is not enough to warrant our verbal defense/support.

    Conservatives are in favor of moral conduct, personal responsibility and high personal standards. That should apply to every area of life. We shouldn’t excuse behavior that is morally bankrupt just because it was done for the purpose of making a profit.

  • davesinsanantonio

    “crapweasel” is SO much better. Thank you!!!

  • jiminga

    is his business experience and “job creation record”, he should present evidence of creating those net jobs. I don’t criticize him for being a “capitalist” but need more than generalities and platitudes about his “record”. He needs to show us his record, in detail, and then we might believe him. Otherwise, he’s just Obama in a better suit making false claims and promises he won’t keep. At the moment I wouldn’t even buy a used car from him.

  • blarman

    We already know that the Democrat spin-machine is going to go after the nominee in whatever way they think is going to get them re-elected. This isn’t news. But you are worrying about it too much just for the sake of decrying Romney. What a waste of time. Each of the candidates is going to have their own personal firing line they would have to wade through assuming they got the nomination. Santorum is a big-government Republican – perhaps worse than any of the other candidates – with no executive experience (though that really didn’t hurt Obama). Gingrich’s infidelity and general dislike are prime targets for the smear campaign. Ron Paul’s wacky newspaper statements are easy prey.

    Instead of writing these stupid two-paragraph articles, why not point out what each candidate has to do to SUCCEED! We all know you don’t like Romney, but every candidate has their flaws. We don’t need to be tearing down our own candidates, and Romney at least has worked in the private sector – something only Ron Paul can also attest to.

  • antisesquipedalion

    if that doesn’t get him , the failure to report his income tax report will. what is he hiding. did he pay low or no taxes ala GE? we are headed for an election disaster with Romney

  • antisesquipedalion

    far better for Romney to deal with this now.. if he can’t– boot him out !!

  • antisesquipedalion

    Womney is Obama Wite

  • ihateliberals

    in all of tht time this is the worse set of candidates I have ever seen from the Republican Party. This is the worse run primary season. The GOP seems to be run by a bunch of amateurs. For God only knows what reason the GOP decided that Romney was to be their man. Nothing has deterred them from tht choice. The Elite Republicans decided after Reagan that they would somehow get rid of the conservatives and move the Party to the middle and left. slowly over the past 23 years they have managed to do that. The real push came with Bush 42. Micheal Steele took over the RNC and told the conservatives they weren’t welcome anymore. When the Tea Party arrived and even though they took the House for the Republicans they have lambasted them and demonized them. The Party hs no intention of allowing a full fledged conservative to gain the power to repel Obamacare. Romney is the Father of Obamacare. The only real answer I can come up with for the party is that they have moved so far to the Left and been infiltrated with Progressive Liberals into the Elite leadership positions. At this point the Progressive Liberals don’t really care which Party wins they win wand will continue to push their agenda as they did with Boehner as Speaker of the House. The Democrats have won every major issue withthe budget and deficit since the Republicans took over. Whats with that? It is like Pelosi never left. People laugh at me when i predict that the Republicans won’t even be able to keep the House tis election let alone add seats to the Senate. The stage is set now for the Democrats to keep the White House and take over Congress again. There will be no stopping the Progressive Liberals if that happens. Romney might collect Moderates but the conservatives and Independents he will lose. Many conservatives will just stay home and not bother. After 46 years as Conservative Republican i have disavowed any membership now with the Republican Party. I consider myself an “Independent Conservative”. I am a man without a Party now. This will be the worse beating the Republicans have had in many many years. All of this is the Fault of the Republican party and their ill fated move to the left. I predict that by January 2013 there will be a new and Powerful Party emerge out of the ruins of the GOP.

  • Juggernaut

    which includes opinion from a non partisan tax center that says the plan will not improve the economy much. If Romney had a great or even a good plan the media would be celebrating but instead they barely covered it…….and that too is proof his plan is lousy.

    Sure they all have flaws but this man reminds me of how Obama was elected without serious vetting. Now the right isn’t interested in knowing all the facts and its quite clear attacking the Bain record will do no harm to capitalism. John McCain attacked Romney’s record and where was the media. In fact, one of Romney’s senior advisors called Senate GOP candidate Meg Whitman a Vulture Capitalist.

    http://www.redstate.com/williamjameson/2012/01/12/romney-economic-plan-will-not-help-the-economy/

    http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/john-mccains-campaign-targeted-bain-capital-in-2008-oppo-research.php

    http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2012/01/romney-strategist-attacked-meg-whitman-as-a-vulture-capitalist/

  • Juggernaut

    have credible records of job creation, economy too. Romney was not a venture capitalist, VC’s focus primarly on new companies not buyouts……….he was LBO Leveraged Buyout and its not as rosy as one would think.

    Romney went anti-capitalist with attacks before Newt plus he’s been using liberal attack ads as has Ron Paul so everyone is drawn to fight dirty or lose. Romney is such a liar and fake that he must be held accountable considering his questionable record that matters. This is the man who accepted a Fed bailout in the 1990′s. The National Review lied suggesting he was no longer working at Bain but a 1994 Boston Globe article proves otherwise.

  • Juggernaut

    have a far right candidate……that’s very narrow minded of you. Romney shall be a failure, his economic plan is lousy.

    This poll suggests at this point in time that Obama is more likeable to moderates……..scary huh???

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/09/2012-poll-obamas-favorability-slips-but-perry-romney-do-no-better/