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Eliminate the corporate income tax

The President made a big deal about and frequently referred to “Invest[ing]” during his State of the Union speech (or so I heard, since I didn’t watch it). Lots of “investing” in more government programs and top-down, centralized economic planning. Lots of “investing” in social safety nets. Lots of “investing” in more pet projects for politicians.

Actually, the President was talking about “spending”, but his handlers have informed him that the “S-word” doesn’t fly well with voters right now. So they did some polls and focus groups and determined a good word to use instead would be “invest”. Then they pulled up the Tools menu in Word and clicked “Replace”, changing every instance of the word “spend” to “invest” in all the President’s speeches. So the President plans to spend billions of dollars in taxpayer–okay, let’s be honest, borrowed–money on the same stuff he wanted to do before the landslide Republican victory in November. But now it’s okay because it’s “investing” instead of “spending”.

This isn’t “investing” in the future. It’s just more of the same Washington horse-hockey. The old Potomac Two Step.

If the President really wants to jump-start our economy and drive investment, he has a powerful–but politically unpopular with his base–tool in his arsenal: He can ask the Congress to eliminate the Corporate Income Tax.

The corporate income tax charges businesses for the profits they earn on their operations. The rate is as high as 35% of net profits, or the amount of money left over after the company pays its bills, its employees and its creditors.

“But those evil, greedy corporations should have to pay their Fair Share™ of taxes!” cry the Leftists.

Sure! Corporations should pay their fair share of taxes! That is, if corporations actually paid taxes. The problem is, corporations don’t pay taxes. They can’t. They’re a legal fiction. Corporations are merely an idea in our heads; an imaginary concept that explains groups of people working together toward a common goal of aggregating and using resources to make or distribute products and services. In reality, corporations don’t pay taxes because they are imaginary constructs. Corporations are made up of individuals: Owners, managers and employees. The corporate entities we talk about simply helps us understand why and how they work together.

So now that you understand that corporations don’t exist, your next question must be,

“Who pays the Corporate Income Tax if corporations are a figment of my imagination?”

Very simply: You do. The owners are ultimately responsible for payment, and they pay a portion of it, but they pass much this tax on to their employees and managers (in the form of lower wages, salaries and benefits) and to their customers (in the form of higher prices). In effect, every person who buys goods and services and every person who works for or owns part or all of a business pays the Corporate Income Tax.

“So how does eliminating the Corporate Income Tax lead to investment and stimulate the economy?”

This is a little more complex, and it first requires an understanding of what money really is: Money isn’t just money. In fact, money is another imaginary concept that we humans have made up. Money, in reality, is a place-holder for goods and services we haven’t bought. Before money, people would barter: They would trade goods and services for other goods and services. So two chickens would be traded for a spear; a goat would be traded for a measure of grain. Two people would come to an agreement on an equitable trade of resources they needed to survive and prosper.

Barter works well in small, localized economies such as hunter-gatherer societies, but it’s not well suited for large or expanding economies. So our ancestors invented this concept that they called “money”, usually making it from precious metals or other materials, later by printing special designs on paper and still later by entering ones and zeroes into a computer.

Money allowed people to split up the resources that they had previously bartered. Perhaps a family of cattle ranchers needed some thatch in their roof. Now, a cow was far more valuable than thatch, so the thatcher would have to barter for several weeks worth of a dairy cow’s milk, or he would have to give up something else of value in addition to the thatch in exchange for a whole cow. It could become very difficult for people to arrive at an equitable bargain simply because of the significant difference in the value of the bartered goods.

So one day, an enterprising individual decided to trade something in place of a valuable resource, and the person he offered it to accepted. It may have been a piece of volcanic glass, a decorative shard of bone or a small nugget of gold or silver. It doesn’t matter what it was, but at some point two people agreed to trade something other than the resources they actually needed, and money was born. So remember what money is: It’s a placeholder for resources.

“But what about gold and silver? Aren’t these precious metals real money?”

Again, gold and silver are just placeholders. They have no intrinsic value outside of being electrically conductive, maleable and pleasing to look at. If an asteroid struck the Earth tomorrow and wiped out all the plants and animals, the survivors wouldn’t be clamoring to get into Fort Knox to take the gold reserves. They’d happily trade whole ingots of gold for a loaf of bread.

“Fine. Money is another legal fiction. It’s a place-holder for resources and goods and services I haven’t bought yet. You still haven’t explained how cutting the corporate income tax helps our economy.”

Economic and financial experts have a special name for money. They call it “capital”, and that’s why our economic system is called “capitalism”. In fact, “capital” is an all-encompassing term meaning both money and the resources we have or obtain in order to make goods and services. We use capital (money) to regulate the flow of goods and services in our economy, and the amount of money required to obtain a good or service communicates its overall value of that good or service. If a chocolate bar is one dollar and a television is $1,000, we instantly understand that the television is 1,000 times more valuable–that is, requires 1,000 times the traded compensation–than the chocolate bar.

So when a business goes looking for resources, it has a certain amount of capital it can use to obtain them. Resources could mean available labor, machinery or raw materials. It could be the building where the business is housed or the telephone and internet connections it uses to communicate. It’s all capital. So when the government taxes a corporation or other business, what it’s really doing is taking away that business’ ability to obtain new raw material, new or better labor, and new physical plant and equipment. By removing money from the business, it removes capital from the capitalist system and places it elsewhere. And ineffective at doing that.

By acting together as a corporation (or partnership or sole proprietorship, for that matter), the owners, managers and employees can do things together–and obtain resources–that a single individual cannot. The vast majority of people can’t buy a nuclear reactor or a jumbo jet airliner or an aluminum smelter or an oil refinery on their own; however people acting together as a corporation, with all the combined resources and aggregated individual talent, can. Even if an individual could afford to purchase a jumbo jet and knew how to fly it, he’d still need someone to load the fuel, cargo, bags and the passengers and maintain the machine. He doesn’t have the time to do it all on his own. So again, people act together as a corporation to get the job done. And all that cooperation wouldn’t happen without the money to buy the resources the individuals need.

“But that owner needs to pay his Fair Share™ of taxes! If we don’t tax the corporation, how do we get revenue for the government?”

Simple answer: He is taxed. He pays income, payroll and/or capital gains taxes on his personal earnings as the corporation’s owner. By taxing the corporation, he is double-taxed. You see, ultimately the income of the corporation is his (and any other shareholders, if they exist). The profits of the business are taxed, then the business distributes part or all of the rest to the owners, then that income is then taxed as capital gains. If the corporation weren’t being double-taxed, it could send more money to its owners, pay its employees more, reduce its prices to its customers or buy more capital resources that they will need to hire new employees to maintain and operate (or any combination of those actions).

In effect, eliminating the corporate income tax becomes a pay raise for everybody. Whether it’s by lower prices, higher wages or increased employment as more capital is required, the net result is a growing economy. After all, if a company buys more capital equipment, somebody has to build it, and that “somebody” is probably another business. Somebody has to operate it, and many of those operators will be people who are currently unemployed.

“But won’t government revenues suffer?!”

In the short-term, they undoubtedly will decline somewhat. This is where the Laffer Curve comes into play: By reducing the tax burden and allowing money to flow more freely within the economy, the economy grows more quickly. By re-investing the money they save, corporations buy new capital goods (distributing that money eventually to somebody who will pay taxes) and hire new employees (who pay income taxes) to maintain and operate them. Even if they choose to keep the money for themselves, the corporation’s owners end up paying additional capital gains tax.

Employment grows, incomes rise and capital gains are larger. The regular income tax revenue grows over time and eventually the economic stimulus increases tax revenues until they reach and overtake the missing Corporate tax component.

“Why not eliminate some other tax, like Capital Gains?”

Eliminating another tax system wouldn’t be a bad thing. But eliminating capital gains tax isn’t as immediate a shot-in-the-arm. Besides, that the money was already taxed at the Corporate Tax rate, which once again is paid by everybody who works or who buys goods and services. Eliminating capital gains would certainly spur investment, but it only directly benefits one class of people. Eliminating corporate taxes benefits everybody.

“How do you know it will work?”

Imagine you’re a business owner. Your business no longer has to pay corporate income taxes! You have a couple of choices: You can increase your dividends and keep more money for yourself, or you can invest it to grow your business by hiring new workers and/or buying new plant and equipment. If you keep it, you pay more capital gains tax. If you re-invest it, you don’t pay any tax! Or you can keep part of it and re-invest the rest. It all depends on your personal needs and the needs of your business.

The only other option is to sit on the money and do nothing. While that’s a possibility, it serves no long-term purpose other than to defend against uncertainty. Uncertainty is what we’re dealing with now, as business owners and managers try to decifer how tax rates will change, what new regulations will be added and what the actual cost of the Health Care Takeover will be. As long as uncertainty is high, business owners won’t want to invest too much into their business, but will instead will hoard their cash as a hedge against the uncertain economic outcomes. Eliminating the Corporate Tax Rate will signal a change in how Washington views business and the economy and go a long way toward helping reduce uncertainty.

COMMENTS

  • drfredc

    The State of the Union was more about the State of the Unions, than State of the Union…. The “investments” were all about getting more money to unions…

    Cutting Corporate taxes and loop holes is just another way to say, let’s raise more taxes from corporations so it can be funneled into unions by one means or another…

    One thing that seems to be missing in economic/political discussions these days is the reality that if you want more of something, tax it less, if you want less of something, tax it more.

    Translated, if you want more business activity, don’t tax businesses so much. The fact that our corporate taxes are so high is an indicator of how far out of line our nation’s political economic debate has become — in no small part to the inept communication skills of the typical RINO Losership who are far from any marketplace experience they ever had, if they ever had such an experience. Then a lot of this is also directly related to the marked increase in ‘defined benefit retirement plans’ that free unions, bureaucrats and politicians from marketplace sensitivity.

    Want to see corporate taxation fall quickly? Outlaw defined benefit plans and require existing plans to be converted into 401ks invested in the marketplace (aka in corporations). You’ll quickly see a persistant effort to lower corporate taxation because more profits means better stock values and higher dividends for 401k owners…. It’s also likely that unions and the left will quickly find that corporations and profits aren’t all that bad. Go figure that while protected from market sensitivity via defined benefit plans that these thoughts would rarely if ever happen…

  • fdouglass61

    A corporation has all sorts of ways to use its income, from reinvesting in its own stock, to capital improvements, acquisition, increased labor, etc. Dividends to owners are always (except in the case of REITS and some other specialized trusts) completely discretionary. Thus raising, or lowering corporate income tax has no direct relationship to the taxes paid by individual shareholders of that corporation. Eliminating or lowering taxes on individual dividend income would be a much better way to help individual taxpayers and allow corporations to make the best investment decisions on behalf of their owners without worrying about the tax effects. This is the route the Republicans took under Bush II and should be extended,

    • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

      The OP wasn’t necessarily linking corporate taxes to shareholders’ income taxes. Taxes paid by a corporation are a business expense, the cost of which gets built into the price of the final product. The consumer, not the shareholder, is who pays corporate income taxes.

      With that in mind, answer me this: who does the corporate income tax hurt more; the rich or the poor? If you guessed the poor, you would be right.

      Not that “hurting the rich” or “hurting the poor” is a valid argument for taxation policy but . . . I’m jus’ sayin’.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        David Horowitz and gamecock have been making the case on how to defeat Dems for years. See his book Left Illusions and the chapter entitled “How to beat Democrats” where he makes the case on this matter. We have to make MORAL arguments against the Dems.

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

    For anyone who hasn’t looked at the different proposals for tax reform, the FairTax is vastly different from its oft-confused counterpart, the Flat Tax.

    While the flat tax would equalize income tax across the board, it would not enact any structural reforms that would incentivize businesses to relocate to the U.S. and thus bring employment opportunities to the people.

    The FairTax would abolish the IRS as we know it and convert all federal tax collections, including payroll and income taxes, into a national sales tax which would be levied at the point of sale. All of the hidden costs of business, including the corporate income tax, which are ultimately paid by the end consumer in the price of everything they buy, would be eliminated.

    To learn more check out the two books about the FairTax:

    The FairTax Book

    and

    FairTax: The Truth: Answering the Critics

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      The Internal Revenue Service would become the Federal Prebate Service under the Fair Tax proposal. In case you haven’t noticed, the government hasn’t done a very good job rooting out corruption in aid to the poor. People would still find ways to hide their income so they could get their prebate check.

      As for a national sales tax, it would be just about as successfully sold as McCain selling taxes on medical insurance. Nobody ever got close to the actual facts. No matter how many times you tried to say income taxes would go away, the left would sell it as an additional tax. Those on the right would fear that even if you were successful in eliminating income taxes, the left would just find a way to bring them back and we’d be stuck with both.

      • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

        not be a panacea at all.

      • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

        would be using Social Security. Then we’d forgo the ability to ever get rid of either.

        Oh, and what about folks who get their prebate check and spend it on something other than the offset for the FairTax on their food? Then we get to listen to the left whine about poor people starving.

        And while we’re at it, how we gonna handle the prebates to those pesky “undocumented workers”?

        • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

          undocumented workers don’t get prebates. Only citizens or legal immigrants with valid social security numbers get the prebate.

          Obviously you haven’t read the book or learned about the FairTax. Wouldn’t it be nice to actually learn about subjects that you criticize?

      • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

        1. why does hiding “income” matter when the FT is a sales tax ? “income” no longer matters under the FT.

        2. the prebate is simply a pre-refund of taxes on the basic necessities of life, up to the poverty level. How is it another form of welfare when all it is doing is refunding the taxes you pay on your food, rent, etc.? If someone wants to live on less than poverty, good for them.

        3. The left wouldn’t be able to sell it as an “additional” tax. it would be passed as a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT which would abolish income taxes. That’s the whole point about the FairTax.

        The least you could do is actually learn what the proposal is, and how it is supposed to be enacted before offering an ignorant opinion.

        • acat

          The FairTax prebate is based on how much money (i.e. income) a household brings in, right?

          Therefore, it’s possible to hide income to get a larger prebate, eh?

          Mew

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            The prebate is based on the household size, i.e., how many dependents you have. IIRC it is ~$650/mo for a single person and the maximum prebate is ~$1,350 for a family of five/six? or more. I can’t remember exactly what the numbers are so don’t take them as gospel, but that is the way it works.

            There is no way to “game” the prebate other than having more kids, and even that has a limit, which is either family of five or six.

    • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

      Look at State laws on sales taxes.

      The prebate would be a disaster.

      A modified flat tax with few deductions is the best way.

      • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

        It would be passed as a constitutional amendment. Congress would not be able to tweak it. Again, this is all set out in the books, which you obviously have not read.

      • Jim Tomasik

        I went through this for myself a couple years ago.

        TN already has a sales tax system in place. It takes roughly 330 “enforcers” to collect it for the whole state.

        TN has no state income tax.

        These same enforcers would be responsible for collecting the federal tax at the same points of sale as the state sales tax. I don’t see any real reason for a huge increase in enforcers but just for the heck of it, lets say the number of enforcers doubles under the FairTax to 660 and that all states use TN’s model.

        660 x 50 states = 33,000 state level employees collecting at the state level and submitting to the federal level. Lets allow 100 federal employees to collect from each single state. 5,000 federal level employees to collect from 50 points. That would be 38,000 employees both on the federal and state level to collect the revenue.

        By my estimation, more than 100,000 IRS employees will have to go find honest work and the Federal government will be out of the individual citizen’s private money business.

        • acat

          I can and do agree with you. I would not object as much to a pure-play national sales tax. I still would, since the rate would tend to creep up over time, but .. less.

          The problem with the Fair Tax is the mechanics of the prebate – that is, the prebate is based on the difference between the poverty line and the household income, which means the current IRS function of determining household income has to be retained, eh?

          Mew

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            There is no “income” consideration in the prebate. The prebate is a pre-rebate of sales tax for household necessities up to the line of poverty, based on the size of your household (number of dependents). It has nothing to do with income.

          • acat

            Because there’s no way the Dems will leave that alone…

            Mew

          • JSobieski
          • acat

            the “nanny state” is a Bad Thing….

            It’s much harder to object – to want to shrink the government if Uncle Sugar gives everyone $600/month, eh?

            Mew

    • JSobieski

      Put another way, its almost impossible to track small off the books the transactions. But if someone has a $200k mortgage, and has $10k in the bank, you know they have income.

      It is far easier and less invasive to enforce an income tax than it is a sales/transaction tax.

      The good aspects of the FAIR tax could be achieved by eliminating corporate income tax and having flat income that covered dividends. This gets the same business competitive advantages without unleashing Big Brother.

      • concap

        Interesting point. Could you please provide some links backing your argument so I can study this farther.

        Thanks

        Fair Tax information
        http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf

        • JSobieski

          Tracking aggregate information is easier to do than granular information because there is more of it.

          What is more administratively burdensome—having an employer generate one document each year for an employee documenting what they earned? or tracking all of the transactions (including transactions for services) that the individual engaged in during the course of that year?

          Moreover, unless people put money in a sack or a freezer, third parties such as banks have every incentive to be truthful. If someone’s bank account balance goes up $100,000 and they report only $20,000 in income for that year, its easy enough to trigger an audit.

          Most people have only one job. Most people engage in thousands of transactions each year.

          • concap

            On it

          • JSobieski

            of transactions that are not currently monitored at the point of sale.

            HIre someone to clear your drive?
            Mow your lawn?
            Fix your roof?
            Ever hire a lawyer for anyting? An accountant? Medical professional?
            Tutor?

            Services make up a large part of the economy, and the number of states that put a sales tax on services is small (if any). Even Michigan doesn’t have a sales tax on services, although they talked about it.

            Some states have no sales tax. The ones that do typically don’t tax services.

            If you want to kill the growing field of at home sole proprietorships, passing the FAIR tax is a great way to do it.

            Eliminating the corporate income tax is a great idea. We can get that done without a Constitutional amendment and without creating a government database of troubled teens meeting with a psychologist.

          • JSobieski

            Well imagine having to issue a 1099 not just once annually for each vendor, but each and every time there is a service transaction.

          • Spiral

            The American people will not accept a 20 plus percent national sales tax while repealing the high income tax rates on high income earners.

            So, even if the “Fair tax” were passed, it would only take a few election cycles before we would end up with both a national sales tax and an income tax.

            All the talk about putting a prohibition on income taxes in the US Constitution has a couple of problems:

            (1) You will never get 2/3rds of both the US House and the US Senate to support such an amendment, since Democrats would have to be part of that 2/3rds supermajority and Democrats like to use the income tax to redistribute income from “rich” to “poor.”

            (2) Even if you could pass the amendment, it wouldn’t take long before Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Elena Kagan ruled that fees on income are not the same as taxes on income and are, thus, not prohibited by the new Constitutional amendment.

            Better to reduce and simplify the income tax and retain our current zero percent sales tax position, meaning not having a sales tax.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            We shouldn’t ignore the need to reduce existing tax rates while at the same time working to enact the FairTax.

            Your argument that “it will never happen” is lame.

          • JSobieski

            Similarly burdening small businesses that provide services is not a good solution in my view,

            If I could create the tax system from scratch, one flat tax for idividuals. No payroll taxes. No corporate income taxes. No sales taxes.

            That would actually incentivize investment. It would also allow us to reduce the size of the IRS, not just change their job descriptions or move to different agencies.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            And no personal returns. Go back to where I linked the FairTax books and read them before further making a fool of yourself.

            Sales tax is collected at point of sale and remitted by the vendor. There would be NO returns filed by individuals.

      • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

        Again this faux-complaint is addressed in the book which you also have not read.

        Nearly every state already has a sales tax. The FairTax proposal piggybacks on state income tax collection and allows the states to collect the tax and remit it to the federal government. How does this require any additional “intrusiveness”?

        Again, if you actually KNEW ANYTHING about the proposal you would realize that your criticism has no foundation in fact. Instead of tracking 300M income tax returns, compliance and enforcement would be on businesses who already register and file sales tax returns. Consumers would have NO reporting requirements.

        The FairTax would do just the opposite of what you claim. It would be less burdensome and less intrusive. It wouldn’t matter how much anybody earned or how they earned it. The only thing that would matter is what they buy — which is reported by the business that makes the sale.

        • acat

          but then go sideways…

          A pure-play sales tax is one thing…. and even then, there’s not a sales tax on services in many places, or even a sales tax at *all* in some states. (Oregon)

          So, you’re talking about adding a layer of accountants to all businesses that sell services instead of material goods, and adding a layer of accountants and enforcers to states that don’t currently have them.

          But. When you add in the Fair Tax prebate, suddenly we *also* have to know how much every household has in income to determine how much prebate they can get. So, you’re not reducing that part of the IRS at all.

          Further, there’s no protection in the Fair Tax, that I can find, to keep the Dems from de-coupling the prebate from the poverty line… and the devil will most definitely be in the details..

          Mew

          • Jim Tomasik

            So you come on this thread and say the same false thing all over again:

            “But. When you add in the Fair Tax prebate, suddenly we *also* have to know how much every household has in income to determine how much prebate they can get. So, you

          • acat

            I have read every post from you on this thread.

            You have not answered my question about how the prebate will be calculated without some agency that smells just like the IRS knowing (and checking up on) every household’s income.

            I find a lot of blather about how sales taxes work. I find a statement from you that the IRS will shrink. I find nothing refuting this.

            Cite it or retract it.

            Mew

          • Jim Tomasik

            http://www.redstate.com/fmaidment/2011/01/28/eliminate-the-corporate-income-tax/#comment-919

            You are saying the government will have to keep up with the amount each person makes to figure out how much prebate they get.

            That is false.

          • acat

            That one does not indicate that you have answered my question.

            Mew

          • Jim Tomasik

            It answers this question of yours.

            You asked:

            “The FairTax prebate is based on how much money (i.e. income) a household brings in, right?

            Therefore, it

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            I honestly don’t get it. Comparing the “extreme burden” of imposing a sales tax on services to what we do now — the IRS income tax behemoth — is not a legitimate comparison.

            Let me give you an example from my personal life. I’m in the national guard and I’m also a lawyer on the private side of life. Back before my most recent deployment, I had to register in Florida to pay sales tax on rental income derived from leasing space in my office to others. You know how hard and complicated that was? Not very. I had to get a sales tax ID and then send in a return every month. Yeah, it was kindof a pain, but . . .

            Compared to hours and hours and HOURS i spend every year accounting and strategizing to minimize income tax?? Doesn’t even compare. Not even in the same league, let alone ballpark.

            And again, on your point about the prebate, INCOME is not a factor whatsoever. It is based on the size of your household and dependents, as determined by your social security number and the census.

          • JSobieski

            If you can’t effectively figure out if someone is cheating on their taxes, cheating will occur. Monitoring income taxes is relatively easy to do. Not the specific amount owed mind you, but whether someone is significantly understating their income. People who are employees get W-2s. People who are not employees put their monies into banks. Banks keep track of aggregated deposits over the year. Easy to compare aggregated deposits to claimed income, put the data into an algorithm and raise flags to identify likely cheaters.

            If someone simply refuses to collect sales tax on services they perform. How do you monitor that? How are you going to figure out whether I am retaining an account under the table? A lawyer? Someone to cut my grass? Clean my house?

            It is easier to monitor information at an aggregated level than it is to monitor information at the granular level.

            Calling something illegitimate is a conclusion, not an argument.

            A lease is single transaction. How about a gas station that can sell HUNDREDS of items for under a dollar in a single day?

        • JSobieski

          i.e. federal + state, the incentive to cheat will go up.

          This is not a faux complaint. This is basic supply and demand.

          Which states currently collect a sales on services by the way?

          You are very good at repeating things, but less adept at addressing the specific issues that people raise.

          How many states charge a sales tax on services?

        • JSobieski

          So yes, a sales tax on services is NOT simply having states continue doing what they do.

          http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/blog/loren-kaye/7623-sales-tax-on-services-again

          “In 1987, Florida enacted a broad sales tax on services, which covered all manner of personal and professional services, including purchases from out-of-state providers. Within six months, the state legislature repealed the tax, replacing it with a penny increase in the sales tax on tangible goods.

          In 1990, Massachusetts expanded its sales tax to services, but repealed it before the effective date.

          And in 2007, Michigan adopted a sales tax on a wide range of mostly personal services. It was repealed before it even went into effect.

          Most recently, Maryland repealed its expansion of the sales tax to computer services. Passed in November 2007, and set to become law the following July, the Legislature repealed it before it could take effect”

          I know, I know, the FAIR tax proposal ignores this argument so it must not matter. I realize that you won’t actually address the idea that a transaction-based tax on services is problematic, but consider the fact that even liberal utopias don’t enact such taxes should tell you something.

          • acat

            so far, it seems to be catching the mid-size and large-size remodeling outfits. Not sure if they’re going to go after the single-operator guys or not….

            Mew

          • JSobieski

            There are sales tax on specific types of services. For example, Obamacare imposes a tax on tanning services.

            The history of sales taxes on services is filled with failure and repeals.

            But of course, the FAIR tax people operate on the assumption that everything will work, so given that assumption . .. they are right.

  • concap

    http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      Suddenly, for no reason other than the dreams of FairTax supporters, once implemented everyone will suddenly follow all the rules.

      Let me ask you this: Do you think people currently find ways around paying sales tax? If you answer yes (which you must), don’t you think this would continue to be the case, especially if this is the only method of taxation?

      I’m always amused by conservatives that think the solution to all of our problems is a government solution.

      • concap

        Could you please tell us your secret of getting out of sales tax when you make your purchases at a store or buy a car.

        Thanks

        Fair Tax information
        http://www.pafairtax.org/resrcs/FlatTaxFairTaxComparison.pdf

        • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

          You’ve never heard of a black market? You didn’t know there are companies that hide some of their sales and pocket the sales tax? I could go on…

          • concap

            Could you please provide me a link that would show the percentage of sales tax lost to these two examples you have provided, so is can study it further.

            Also I would like some links that cover your argument in general, to study.

            Thanks

            Until then, you keep presenting your side and I will present mine when applicable. The one who is most convincing will win. It

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’m not going to do your research for you. If you want to continue to promote an idea without considering all of the facts, that’s your business. Just don’t be surprised when people continue to point fingers at you and laugh.

          • JSobieski

            So the “show me a link that shows definitively what will happen in the future if a FAIR tax is enacted” response is silly.

            Show me a link that says the FAIR tax people are correct.

            I am a small business owner and an industrial engineer by education. My mind is pretty adept at looking at processes and identifying particular steps in which a process is vulnerable.

            Sales tax is harder to administer than income tax. If you raise sales tax significantly, people will have an incentive to get around the system. No bureacracy in the world can effectively monitor sales tax if the population is actively trying to avoid it.

            In contrast with income taxes, where aggregate bank records are easy to access. The people with $20k of income and $500k in bank deposits are easy to identify for audits.

          • JSobieski

            I am still in business.

            I am a services company.

            Do you really need a link for that?

            Liberals aren’t the only people who get stuck in templates you know.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            Instead of responding to people with invective and false arguments you ought to learn about the FairTax proposal, how it is intended to be implemented, and what it does.

            The fact of the matter is that federal “income tax” is a self-reporting mechanism that depends on someone being truthful and honest about the sources and nature of their income. A sales tax is something that is collected automatically at the time of sale. It is the same concept as withholding on income tax, only that income tax withholding only happens for people who are issued a W2.

            A national sales tax would expand the tax base dramatically. Illegal aliens, drug dealers, and income tax evaders all have to buy stuff. Hence, they would pay taxes whereas now they don’t.

            Seriously if you are contending that MORE people would be successful in evading a sales tax than an income tax, you are delusional . . .

          • JSobieski

            (1) No state has a broad based sales tax on services–so we are talking something new, i.e. not currently established

            (2) If you under report incomes taxes significantly, and have lots of money in a bank, it is relatively easy for the computer algoritms over at the IRS to flag likely under reporters. Conversely, if I have a bunch of stuff that I didn’t pay sales tax on, there is no way of monitoring that.

            (3) Nothing happens “automatically”. I am a self employed service provider. No tax is going to be collected automatically.

            The inability of FAIR tax proponents to actually address the arguments is disappointing. Aggregating information makes it easier to monitor for compliance. Granual information such as transaction data is far harder (impossible really since there is no trail to follow).

            Most people have only one job, but they engage in hundreds if not thousands of transactions in a year.

            What is easier to monitor, one $50k annualized transaction or 1000 $50 transactions occuring throughout the year?

            What is easier, to fill a 50 gallon barrel using a tea spoon or a bucket?

          • acat

            this also disincentivizes buying new, which will not help manufacturing… although flea markets and Craigslist and eBay will be doing very nicely…

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            I’ve looked at the Fair Tax proposal before. My comment stands.

            If you think people won’t find new ways to cheat on their taxes if you change the system, YOU are delusional…

        • acat

          buy used, and understate the value of the transaction on the mandatory state form where the transaction is reported.*

          For the rest, have you considered not shopping at stores? Flea markets, garage sales, rummage sales, Craigslist, eBay, freecycle…

          There’s a whole underground economy out there – it is best for any tax plan to acknowledge it. People are going to try to game the system – make sure they can in some small way, and you prevent the kind of mass abuse we’ve seen in the Poke’mon (gotta catch ‘em all) systems…

          Mew

          * note – this is bad advice, I am not a lawyer, do not follow this advice without talking to an actual lawyer first…

          • concap

            On something controversial, I try to include a link to let people what I base my post on. This is to cut down on arguments and to educate.

            It

          • acat

            was that the manufacturer could track a product from the plant to the point of purchase. Bic could, for instance, tell which truck a given group of razors for sale at a flea market “fell off of”. (this was, at one point, a large problem for them… the razors weren’t expensive enough to pursue, but it was enough of a profit bleed that they wanted to fix it…)

            The problem with RFID is that once the tags are embedded in the product, they’re rather hard to get rid of, so .. stores with RFID readers at the door and the right database can tell what products are walking in as well as what products are walking out.

            I like the idea of every citizen paying some tax. I like the idea of a properly implemented consumption tax because it does catch some of the “underground economy”. I even like the idea that taxes should be collected at the State level instead of by the Fed.

            All that said, at the end of the day, this is a nationwide sales tax. Unless it’s coupled with an amendment to the constitution changing the way the Fed is authorized to levy taxes, I will be opposing it. I don’t want to take a chance on sunsetting the income tax, just to have it come back the next time the Dems screw up the economy.

            Mew

          • JSobieski
          • JSobieski
          • acat

            There’s a guy in Chicago who does driveways on weekends, when he’s not doing driveways during the week for his boss. Same equipment, standards, permits, etc., he just works an extra day of the week… pays for his lake house. The only difference is the ones he does during the week get a little steel plaque with his boss’ companies’ name on ‘em – the ones on the weekend get a crushed beer can.

            As for RFID – my point was that someone taking an RFID reader and walking around a flea market would be able to find products that were reported “lost in shipping” and being re-sold… not that the chips themselves do anything… This was to point out that there are big enough flaws in the existing state sales tax laws… that is, there are existing examples of where “new” product is sold without sales tax being collected, eh?

            Mew

          • concap

            will not vote for it if the income tax is not removed by a Constitutional amendment and fair tax enacted by a Constitutional amendment.

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            You need to read the book. One of the fundamental cornerstone proposals of the FairTax is that it MUST be passed as a constitutional amendment.

            Read the book and then come back and let me know what you think. If you haven’t read the book, you should just say “I haven’t read the book and thus can’t give an informed opinion on the topic.”

            NOBODY should support a national sales tax without amending the Constitution to eliminate the income tax.

          • concap

            something around page 167-68 on the states having to pay the Fair Tax on what they spend to the Federal Government. If so, where will they get it.

          • JSobieski

            No offense, but the only people I see supporting it are academics/think tank people. Business people with practical experience are not leading the charge on this.

            I am both a lawyer and an industrial engineer, and the more I think about the FAIR tax, the more I think it is the right-wing version Obamacare. It appeals to us in theory, but in practice it would be a disaster.

            We should be cutting sales taxes, not raising them.

          • acat

            I’d almost rather see us convert from the income tax to a national sales tax, discarding the “FAIR” bits of the “FAIR” tax. ..

            Yes, it hits the poor hardest, but .. guess what, that argument is why we now have over 40% of the country paying no *income* tax. (Congress kept raising the threshold below which nobody needs to file a 1040 but couldn’t be bothered to raise the threshold where people have to pay the AMT? I smell scam…)

            Mew

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            and I would agree. That removes the taxing the poor argument because most of their disposable income is spent on those. But still, no one has demonstrated a successful path to passage of not one but two Constitutional Amendments.

          • acat
          • JSobieski

            Efficient collection of a sales tax is more intrusive than the efficient collection of income taxes because of the granular nature of transactions. Most people have one job, but engage in hundreds if not thousands of transactions.

            Good luck taxing services.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            And I already pointed out elsewhere the many problems with collecting the sales tax. If that were the only method of taxation, people will find many other ways around it.

          • JSobieski

            Moreover, excluding housing would allow the largest transactions from the wealthiest tax payers to go untaxed, while notebooks and pencils for school kids would be taxed in excess of 23%.

            Sales taxes make no sense on big ticket items purchased using loans. The extra cost is just too large. A sales tax would alter behaviors in way that are hard to predict in advance.

          • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

            Quite honestly I no longer take any politician seriously that supports it. If they support it, they clearly haven’t thought through all the problems with it.

          • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

            That whole rebate thing was an unworkable system that would soon be turned into an alternate welfare by politicians.

            I would LOVE to see the repeal of the income tax amendment and the move to a national (final transaction) sales tax. But in order for the tax to be low enough NOTHING, and absolutely nothing could be exempt.

            In order to sale it you could make it progressive. Which would allow it to be low enough not to hurt poor people, but still take in enough money.

            The good thing about it is that everyone pays, corporations, illegal immigrants, drug dealers, politicians, tax cheats.

          • Jim Tomasik

            Used things are not taxed via the FairTax. Only new stuff.

          • acat

            if it only addresses new things because it will become much, much more intrusive to buy new.

            All that paperwork to buy a new car? You’ll need that to buy a refrigerator or a television or …

            Think it through. In order to know how much to tax each household, the government will have to know quite a lot more about our buying habits. Are you proposing that they buy access to marketeering databases?

            Mew

          • Jim Tomasik

            It is obvious by reading many of your comments that you have yet to do so.

          • acat

            I’m not a ma’am. Think alley tomcat.

            As to “thinking through the fair tax”, I have tried, repeatedly. Like a piece of Dem propaganda, the goal posts keep moving….

            FairTax used to be that there would be checks mailed to below-median incomes to “make up for” the taxes they pay. Is that particular abomination still in it? If so, just how do you propose to keep the Dems in congress from mucking with the thresholds?

            FairTax also used to exclude certain service purchases. Did that loophole get corrected?

            Seems to me FairTax is still cooking at best…

            Mew

          • Jim Tomasik

            Now back to the issue.

            You said:

            “FairTax used to be that there would be checks mailed to below-median incomes to

          • Jim Tomasik

            Are you saying that the mere fact that elected reps might screw around with the thresholds is a deal breaker for you on a tax reform proposal? Seriously?

          • acat

            Yes, I *am* saying that the fact that Dems turn every program they touch into a government handout and will surely find a way to un-index the “prebate” from the poverty line is a problem.

            I am also saying that the fact that Dems incrementally jack up sales taxes wherever they can because these hikes often go unnoticed (consider Cook County, IL – home of Chicago – where the sales tax is now 11%…) and I am hoping you’ll understand that I see the FairTax as pouring fertilizer on Dem weeds.

            Mew

          • Jim Tomasik

            Look at the so called flat tax we had in the early eighties.

            Your own litmus knocks out every tax reform idea proposed by anyone including the flat tax.

          • acat

            Because, all that would be needed, is to make the Fair Tax a constitutional ammendment, with all numbers expressed as a percentage of GDP or equivalent figure, and 67 votes required in the Senate to change any of the percentages.

            Since the Fair Tax requires repealing a couple amendments anyway, I see this as quite the reasonable requirement.

            Or, alternately, there’s my personal pet plan – the Fed taxes the States, not the individual.

            Mew

          • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

            Guess what? FairTax proposal would not tax used cars, houses or anything else “used.” If you actually learned about what the proposal is and what it entails before offering your critiques, you would avoid making a fool of yourself.

  • concap

    A flat tax just won

    • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

      And then some.

      • concap

        Please elaborate. You acidity left out enough information for me to rebut.

        Thanks

        p.s. Nice website. I like the picture of Homeland security at work.

        • http://908StraightSt.wordpress.com/ mbecker908

          We’ve been through this over and over.

          First of all, with respect to the “embedded tax”, the guys who came up with the number originally are on record as saying the number was basically a guess and it’s not by any means real. You can find it, it’s not worth the effort to me.

          Secondly, there is no way on God’s earth you’ll get the Constitutional Amendments passed that are absolutely necessary to even start with the FT.

          You’re debating a political impossibility and a tax system that is totally guesswork. Won’t happen.

        • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

          Conservatism teaches us not to expect perfection and all taxes have upsides and downsides.

          The FAIR Tax and all sales taxes also have their’s but at least when only used by states, the rate doesn’t have to be so oppresively high, especially on necessities that hit the poor and lower income so hard.

          1) The methods used to try and lessen the impact on the poor require Big Government intrusion and fraud and do not really help.

          2) More items to tax at different rates and with favors for different industries

          3) inflation

          and finally, in a nation like the US which depends on consumption to fuel growth so that we can keep the military strong, cuts against consumption.

          You get less of what you tax and consumption fuels the US economy. We are not Switzerland. We don;t have luxury not to grow and stay free.

  • concap

    I have said all along, I

  • KC

    The argument that the Fair tax would result in service providers avoiding taxes is silly. Does anybody really believe the guy that mows your lawn reports his income today as required by current law?

    The current Tax Code is roughly 86,000 pages. It provides LEGAL means for escaping taxation, and all one needs is a hot-shot tax lawyer.

    The Fair Tax will never become law because Democrats would be deprived of their most cherished political weapon: class warfare.

    • luvnthebigsites

      I would add that when the R’s come into power they add or “amend” those 86k pages with more pages to keep the economy alive. But its still MORE to the tax code that cant be understood anymore. Fair tax, Flat tax, No tax, whatever… something has got give. I salute anyone that supports a Tax Replacement. (.) What we have now cannot be repaired.

    • JSobieski

      You have illustrated the concept of aggregation perfectly.

      Its hard to monitor a thousand $25 transactions.

      its easy to monitor $25,000 in income.

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    …turn into a wrassling match on the Fair Tax? There were three whole comments before this became a debating society forum on a utopian tax scheme that will never become law. If you want to reduce taxation, cut spending. The current taxation levels will hurt regardless of the source of tax receipts.

    Great piece, fmaidment. I especially like the background info and step-by-step reasoning. I don’t think that most people realize that by their nature, corporations pass the cost of taxes down to the consumer through higher prices.

    • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

      Any diary about Presidential candidates becomes “The Palin Wars”. Any diary about taxes becomes “The Fair Tax Wars”. Any diary about the Fed brings out every moonbat in the western hemisphere with gold coins hidden under their mattress.

      • acat

        believe that repeating the same thing over and over will, eventually, drill through the closed ears… of course Scope phrased it much more eloquently.

        The main reason I bother to argue against the Fair Tax is that it’s the wrong approach. We’d be much better off eliminating (or constricting) the Feds’ right to tax individuals – instead, have them tax States – that is, have the Fed, every April 1, submit a bill to each State for “services rendered”, based loosely on the demographics of the State – i.e. percentage of jobs paying over X, percentage of population in the armed services, percentage on welfare, etc… and let the States figure out how to raise the monies.

        That is, if Delaware want to tax only the first $100k of income, fine – if Tennessee want to tax only sales, also fine, so long as – at the end of the year – they can pay the Fed.

        Mew

        • concap

          Your idea about the Fed charging the States for services rendered. However, what you proposed as stated think is not is not what the founding fathers intended.

          Benjamin Franklin when confronted on a national bridge tax one day said no. He then went on to state that all taxes levied on U.S. citizens must affect either positively or negatively each and every citizens equally.

          Now, if you required each State to pay the Federal Government a flat fee for each and every person residing in that state, of say, $25.00 (just a number), and the State charged each person that fee, that would affect each citizen equally.

          Government operating budget as defined in Article 1 Section 8 only, (not FICA and all the other sh#t) divided by the number of people living in the United States equals the amount each person must pay.

          The better the (citizen elected) politicians of each state is at lowering Federal spending, the lower each person will be charged.

          I

          • acat

            I’m saying free the States to determine how they raise the money to pay for their share of the Fed services.

            I don’t care if a given State wants to have an income tax, another wants to have a sales tax, a third wants to have a real estate tax, etc. etc.

            Each States’ contribution should be roughly based on how many people they have, how much welfare goes into the State, how much it costs to maintain any interstate highways (which are a national good / military resource) , etc. etc.

            As for what the founders had in mind, look before 1789, not after, and it’s a whole different story, eh?

            Mew

          • concap

            care either how the state gets it, just so each amount collected for the operating budget as defined in Article 1 Section 8 only, is the exact same from each person in each state.

          • acat

            That’s a regressive tax, that is, it’s harder for someone making $25k to pay the same tax than for someone making $250k.

            If some States want to implement that, I’m fine with it, but .. I want the Fed to not *care* how the States get there.

            If the citizens don’t like it, they can vote for change, either at the ballot box or with their feet, eh?

            Mew

    • runner12

      The solution is simple. QUIT spending and lower taxes. All we need is a little common sense, not new-fangled programs to hand to the government to screw up.