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Coats-like gun skeletons in the closet, Dem-o-Bats walking the Earth

Dan Coats, borne arms and repealing ObamaDems

Questions from a conservative to self-identified gun rights advocates

This Reagan-Bork conservative since 2000 believes that our Creator-endowed unalienable rights includes the individual right to own and bear arms to defend ourselves, our families, our homes, our businesses and Liberty itself.

Judge Laurence Silberman’s majority opinion in D.C. vs. Heller articulating this right was persuasive in striking down the federal conclave’s ban on guns even in one’s home, and while I think the Second Amendment originally applied only to the federal government, I can understand why conservatives would advocate its direct application to the states given that almost all of the other guarantees in the Bill of Rights have been applied to the states.

At the time of the drafting and ratification of the U.S. Constitution, the right of the people to bear arms was protected in the laws of all of the original 13 colonies. Not so today in many states, including Chicago, Illinois, whose draconian gun controls are now being scrutinized by the U.S. Supreme Court to see if Heller applies equally to the states.

Skeletons in conservative closets

But my purpose here is not to flesh out the overall issue of gun control, but rather to focus on its relevance in today’s political atmosphere. I refer to gun rights advocates opposition to long-time Republican U.S. Representative Dan Coats’ return to politics in Indiana, after a decade-long absence, to run for U.S. Senate.

It seems that Coats voted for President Bill Clinton’s “assault weapons ban”, which expired when President George W. Bush refused to renew it. Perhaps the best gun rights columnist in America, David Codrea complains:

While I could never presume to recommend voting for his ObamaCare-supporting opponent Ellsworth, now would be as good a time as any to look at third party choices and vote your conscience, or else just sit on your hands for that race—particularly if you convey to the Republican establishment thatthey’re the ones who drove you away from them. Bottom line: No Votes for Coats (Hey, that’s not a bad bumper sticker…).

Let me state right up front that I have no sympathy for the gun control crowd’s positions on this issue, and find their justifications wanting of logic, for most gun control laws. And while I have never owned a lethal firearm, I am for the right to own a gun and cherish that right for myself.

But even if we stipulate that we have a right to bear arms protected by the federal constitution, don’t we all agree that the right is limited, lest individuals own fighter Jets, tanks or nuclear weapons?

And given that fact, does Dan Coats deserve the vitriol he has received from many gun rights advocates because of an argument over just how many bullets can be fired from a rifle every 60 seconds?

Dem-o-Bats blood-suckers out of the closet

There is a recession on. Have you heard about it?

ObamaDems are destroying this country. The only non-violent chance we have to save this country is to repeal ObamaCare and many other laws passed by Congress. To effect repeals we will need every Republican seat we can win.

Want to write majority reports in the future? Forgive 20th Century gun law skeletons.

Yet, a man with an otherwise sterling conservative record is vilified. Yes, his opponent in the primary was a tea partier that may well have been the better candidate. I may well have voted against Coats had I been attentive to all the issues and candidates and resided in Indiana on primary day. But what grabbed my attention was how Coats was being harmed by fellow conservatives in a way that might open the door for the Democrat to defeat him and thus make it more likely that ObamaDems fundamental socialistic changes to America become permanent.

Early in this Bork-inspired constitutional lawyer’s Examiner.com career three years ago, I wrote a column expressing my extreme respect for the gun rights examiners in their understanding of the constitution on most all issues, not just guns.

So this column is a sincere inquiry on the relative importance of how semi- must semi-automatics be (and what is the constitutional basis for same, e.g. a right to “bear” bazookas?), versus how vital it is that conservatives and the GOP stick together to remove ObamaDems from power.

Coats deserves our full support and the statute of limitations for lovers of liberty and the America we inherited, should have run on the assault weapons votes in the last Millennium.

Mike “gamecock ” DeVine

The Minority Report

“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

www.devinelawvista.com

COMMENTS

  • pilgrim

    The Indiana primary is over, and the most conservative candidate for US Senate did not win. Get over it and support Dan Coats for US Senate. Instead of going with someone who is using an Alinski rule use the rule of vote most conservative in the primary and vote Republican in the general.

    Dan Coats is going to help restore our country as a US Senator and Brad Ellsworth will just be a lackey for Obama and his minions who are trying to radically transform the US. Dan Coats is not part of the Republican Congress who went astray over the last twelve years because he was not in office during that time. Hoosier voters are wise enough to know the difference between a Mike Sodrel who had been turned out by them in 2006 and chose not to elect in 2010 and Dan Coats who chose to not run in 1998.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • JadedByPolitics

    there MUST be limitations….like for me honestly I believe burning the American Flag is NOT a speech issue and should NOT be allowed however lefties do believe that.

    Humans if left to their devices each and every time will take something too far!

  • Richard Mullins

    What happened in the past in his last time as Senator was just that, the past and we should rally behind the candidate. Like I’m doing with Rand Paul, put him on a 6 yr Probationary period(or what that translates as far as a Senator is concerened). No need to worry now, it relentless push against Ellsworth. I’m not worried about the past, I’m only concerened on the Here and Now.

  • penguin2

    that once the primary is over, we have to focus on getting the Republican elected. Nothing else will stop the Obama/Socialist machine. Nothing.

    Birthday wishes are sent from penguin, South Pole of course.

  • aesthete

    Flag-burning is reprehensible, but social ostracizing and other non-violent protests of this action are much more effective and warranted than a subverting of the right to free expression, and than punishing people for doing something dumb. Put another way, life tends to punish the stupid enough; why should my tax dollars go to yet another of these punishments?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    understanding that men and women are imperfect, including conservatives and republicans.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • merlin8047

    OK, he’s got the nomination. Now get him elected, and THEN stand by and watch him like a hawk. We let the Class of ’94 morph itself into the Grand Old Progressive party, and look where it got us. No Congresscritter or Senator can ever again be allowed to run unattended !

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    as a form of speech.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Raven

    Assuming you can afford and maintain one, of course.
    People do, you know. With functional weapons, even. None of the current ones with their classified technology, but you can find the rare F4 Phantom out there and virtually all of the old fighter planes in private hands. Used to be quite a few Shermans out there, too, though I believe age and lack of maintenance has killed most of them.

    While I agree on restrictions of NBC, I don’t agree on restrictions of anything else that’s not classified.

  • Raven

    And that burning a flag should be classed as such. Burn a flag in front of me, I am going to kick your backside between your ears. Same to me as calling my wife a whore (my beating someone down for that one Is protected as a response to “fighting words” in many states).

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    other circumstances would have to present for flag burning to trigger it, but certainly a case could be made for making it a per se trigger. Fact is, that most people that burn flags as speech do so in such a way that vilolates general public burning” ordinances, in any event.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • nessa

    This clip is always great, the good old days when athletes were role models.

  • SteveLA

    There was a recent interview with Rick on one of the Dodgers pre-game shows. He was pretty humble about the whole deal and that makes him a special kind of hero in my book.

    Go Dodgers!

  • David123

    If Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi tell the Democrats to restrict guns they will. It will be just like Stupak on healthcare reform with abortion subsidies.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Achance

    Owning a restored and operable WWII German tank is just about the most exclusive motoring club in the World. There’s a lot of Shermans out there but like most WWII stuff provenance means everything; one with a combat record or which saw service in a war zone is EXTREMELY rare and just as extremely valuable. There used to be an M-5 Artillery Tractor just sitting in a vacant lot near my house in ANC and I covetted it but just wasn’t in a place where I could do anything with it back then. Sure wish I had that thing now! It was WWII or Korea vintage though I don’t know the provenance at all. In any shape at all, it would be worth a lot of money these days. If you look, you can still find a lot of Sherman and Sherman deriviative chassis around. Lots of them went surplus to REAs and other untilities because they were a cheap, heavy duty tracked vehicle for use in rough country to lay power lines.

  • Raven

    Go Cubs!

    Hell, go Both teams. That was beautiful. And they both had people running to save that flag.

    I wonder if any basketball players who’d do that. Any more baseball players. Soccer?
    I know of a few football players who would. Unfortunately, I don’t know of any on the teams I root for that would. But Pittsburgh has some great people.

  • Bill S

    I’ll have to have someone ban you.

    But maybe we’ll just let Albert Pujols bat against your guys more often…

    ;-)

  • tcgeol

    Frankly, yes. Those Republicans who believe in restricting rights deserve no more respect for such violations than anyone else just because they have an R instead of a D behind their name. The phrase “the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” seems to me to rule out outlawing a group of otherwise legal firearms.

    On the other hand, the lesser of two evils is still the best choice, and if I lived in Indiana, I’d still vote for Coats.

  • Raven

    Don’t care much for any other team.

  • Doc Holliday

    you can do better than that GC. You come from a state that was quite good at limiting gun rights, not by the type of firearm, but the type or person who carried on, you know what I mean? This is why former Jim Crow states, aside from Virginia and Florida, are not usually leaders in 2A rights. When we want to hear about freedom and the 2A, we look to the West.

    I don’t have it in for Coats, the primary is over. But when I hear the absurd red herring about owning nukes, I just don’t listen anymore, that is lefty gun grabber talk. Coats was wrong on the Clinton Gun ban because he was WRONG and the ban was WRONG. It has nothing to do with nukes or fighter planes or Napoleon Cannons.

    If Coats want’s support from 2A organizations, HE NEEDS TO ASK FOR IT AND SHOW WHY HE DESERVES IT!!! I know it sounds simple, that is because it is simple.

  • Doc Holliday

    in fact I explained the fallacy of the nuclear weapon so we must have limits on semi-autos to him before, he is not listening so that is why I am not saying much here.

  • FreedomIsLearned

    > does Dan Coats deserve the vitriol he has received from many gun
    > rights advocates because of an argument over just how many
    > bullets can be fired from a rifle every 60 seconds?

    I assume that question is in good faith, but it seems to confuse NFA “machine guns” with the semi-automatic carbines that the Clinton “AW” ban, er, banned. That’s not really an accident–the gun control lobby *intended* you to make that mistake. Rate of fire is simply not an issue here.

    > So this column is a sincere inquiry on the relative importance of how
    > semi- must semi-automatics be

    Not much…unless you think the Constitution is still binding and that Madison & Company might, after all, have been right in connecting gun ownership with freedom.

    > (and what is the constitutional basis
    > for same, e.g. a right to ?bear? bazookas?)

    Of the several specific things the 2A is supposed to protect, the only one important enough to be enshrined in a prefatory clause was your ability to own the rifle that you are obliged to report to militia duty with, until roughly age 45 (that number has essentially been constant for the entire history of the Republic). That is your weapon of honor and civic duty–I suppose that sounds incomprehensible today, but the document was written by men for whom honor was so metaphysically concrete that they still fought duels. To be well-regulated, among other things you need to report with the standard-issue rifle chambered in the standard-issue cartridge. Thus, according to the original logic, the AR-15 pattern rifle should be the most protected firearm in America. It is the one that the government has the power to *require* you to possess and maintain, after all (if you are a male between about 17 and 45, or IIRC since about 1903 a female in the National Guard or reserves).

    Second, if we want to be really honest about it, the founders spilled a great deal of ink on the necessity that the people be comparably equipped to the regular army and to select militias (such as the National Guard). Thus, in a broader sense they were more concerned with specifically military rifles than any others. That means the contemporary military, just as the freedoms of speech and press cover electronic media (such as RedState!). The “sporting purpose” lie is precisely the opposite of the truth: sporting arms are protected simply to protect the positive gun culture that teaches boys to be riflemen before they even reach the military. The 2A doesn’t say “duck hunting being necessary to a free state. (That isn’t just a militia problem. The NRA was originally founded because the Northern recruits didn’t know which end of the rifle pointed at the other guy. Sometimes you don’t have time to take a city boy and start from scratch, and even today the army finds that hunters make better soldiers.)

    Third, the incremental banning of guns has mainly progressed by first establishing the false premise that there exists at least one bad, evil kind of gun whose owners, we’re assured, shouldn’t be supported by “normal” gun owners. Then the “evil” categories of guns and owners expands until it includes *all* guns and all gun owners, but in such a way that at each step we’re told we shouldn’t have common cause with *those* people.

    There is simply no doubt about this–dear departed Ted Kennedy railed on the Senate floor about the horrible cop-killing armor-piercing guns available everywhere in America–the .30-30. As that is a rather weak cartridge, and has always been chambered only in sporting arms (almost always a lever-action carbine, a “cowboy gun” to people who don’t know guns), dear old Ted let the cat out of the bag. *Everything* is going to get banned, in due time. There’s nothing surprising about this pattern–that’s how it worked in each country that lost the right, too.

    Fourth, “assault weapons”, i.e. semiautomatic carbines with furnishings that make Diane Feinstein wet her pants (literally–they ban was based on appearance, not function), are actually customarily chambered in weak cartridges anyway. Most hunting rifles are *much* more powerful, and even in semi-auto an old M1 Garand from the CMP or a (modern, sporting) Browning BAR in a suitable hunting caliber is far more gun, and will fire as fast (as fast as you pull the trigger, basically).

    In short: (1) we have an obligation to the rule of law to protect *everything* the Bill of Rights was understood to protect, and may not on our honor throw part of the law under the bus, (2) “assault weapons” are the do-or-die battleground where we *must* defeat the “sporting purpose” lie once and for all, and (3) we must not let the gun control lobby set up their follow-up attack against “sniper-rifles” (that will be any bolt-action rifle), “cop-killers” (that will be any cartridge at least as powerful as the 5.56, which is a varmint cartridge), “street sweepers” (eventually, any shot gun), and the like.

    We *know* how their rhetoric and procedure works. We must not play their game on taxes, Constitutional interpretation, *or* gun control.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Otherwise legal? What does that mean?

    Do you agree that it is constitutional to ban the private ownership of bazookas, tanks, fighter jets, and weapons of mass destruction?

    A bazooka can be “borne”, after all.

    Upon what basis do draw the “otherwise” legal line?

    How do you get from no privately owned bombs to bullets at this or that rate or firing from a rifle?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    you spent most of your space seemingly trying to convince me of matters I agreed to in my column. Makes me wonder if you read my column or that you read it but simply haven’t formulated the legal basis in your own mind about how you make a constitutional argument between bazookas and repeating rifles.

    I’ll re-read what you wrote again as I do have the flu and am real sick.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    Dan Coats is the nominee. I’m behind him. That settles it.

    The time for bashing Coats was before the primary. Coats won. Stutzman lost, despite a tremendous last minute push. Hostettler lost.

    So if I were in Indiana I’d be voting for him without question.

  • nessa

    …the weapons can be fully functional. The .50 BMG used on US Tanks since their inception can be owned and used by individuals if it was manufactured prior to 1986. Some States require a Class III FFL, some allow ownership without an FFL if you meet relatively common criteria. The main gun would be classed a Curio and Relic and require a Class III FFL. That is expensive and carries some onerous requirements, such as BATF inspections of your home etc. But they can be owned, operated (fired) and transferred between individuals.

  • tcgeol

    The firearms banned in the 1994 “AWB” were just that – completely legal to own with no difference technically from any other legal firearm. They weren’t even Class III firearms such as full-autos, AOWS, etc, so there was no basis legal or otherwise, which could justify that horrible law.

    It wouldn’t (doesn’t) bother me in the least if someone can own a bazooka or tank. On the other hand, this really is a ludicrous argument that anti-RKBA people use almost exclusively. You’re a good guy, GC and not an anti – you can do better than this argument.

  • thomasgipper

    The Founding Fathers made it clear, and the Supreme Court confirmed in the Heller decision, that a) the ?militia? consisted of all-able bodied men (in general, the ?People?). The Founders also made it clear that the militia?s arms would be ?little if at all inferior? to the arms used by a standing army. Hamilton wrote in Federalist No. 29, regarding the militia:

    ?Yet is is a matter of the utmost importance that a well-digested plan should, as soon as possible, be adopted for the proper establishment of the militia. The attention of the government ought particularly to be directed to the formation of a select corps of moderate size, upon such principles as will really fit it for service in case of need. By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist. ?

    The Founders couldn?t have envisioned NBC weapons. They are so destructive that any government is almost certain never to use such weapons on its own soil. But we know tanks have been used to terrorize populations, ordinary folks ? look at Germany?s invasion of the 9 or so nations on the eve of WW II — as have pistols, rifles, & other weapons. So sorry, but Hamilton was right: ordinary citizens should be able to get what they want of the latter items ? for self defense, and to make government officials just a little bit scared of the People. You can have training and paperwork requirements, and supervise heavily when it comes to the more exotic weapons, but for pistols and rifles it shouldn?t be very hard at all to own them assuming you?re an honest, law-abiding citizen.

    As for Dan Coats, if he’s the best they can do Indiana, fine. Comrade Obama must be defeated. But Coats must be prevented from having his way again on the so-called “assault weapons” ban. The federal and state governments have them, the People should have them too.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the demarcation of the govt’s right to regulate firearms? Is it that we have a right to ANY arm that can be held in one’s hands? Borne in some other manner? I’m asking, not telling, so no, I’m not “better” than to be an inquirer. It just seems that the gun rights folks have no explanation as to why some weapons are banned (ie nuclear, and then its called a red herring) but that somehow, the demarcation line is at some rate of bullet releases per minute.

    What is the logical and legal basis?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • FreedomIsLearned

    Then perhaps I don’t understand your questions. You seemed to raise at least three: (1) how important is it (clearly an open question, as you casually dismiss it as a dispute over rate of fire instead of a core Constitutional question), (2) is it worth opposing the nominee in this instance, and (3) just how far does the right extend, anyway. Perhaps #2 is your primary question, but it seems it cannot be answered without addressing #1 first (indeed, if the answer to #1 is “not so much,” then #2 is automatically “no”). One of my two main points was that on several grounds (and there are more, I just finally cut it off), it really is *important*, meaning-of-the-Constitution important. So #2 is a real, serious issue. #3 is very interesting, but it buys big arguments on gun boards and law journals and so I defer it for now. My second main point was that however far the right extends it unquestionably covers military-pattern semiautomatic carbines, and so we don’t need to settle #3 to address #2. Thus, tanks and supergerms are simply not relevant to your practical questions. I’m happy to discuss it, but one issue at a time.

    #2, and in this instance whether to oppose Coats, is much more subjective. Single-issue gun voters (of whom there are many) should oppose him–the entire reason we have not had an AW bill in the current congress is because gunnies have made it clear that they have elephant-like memories and the policy will be scorched-earth. It’s pretty important not to lose that third-rail like quality, and I think rationally that would be the deciding issue for them.

    Non-single-issue voters (of which I am one) have a harder time, because it amounts to asking how many troops have to be pulled from one front to shore up another when we can afford to lose neither. I am of two minds. I do *not* think any freedom in the Bill of Rights can survive in isolation, so precisely how to weigh economic freedom (for example) against the Right to Arms is, for me, a hard tactical call (and one I have to make here in California, where the state party prefers RINOs and lots of anti-gunners have an R after their name–take our gubernatorial race as a sad example where Moonbeam Jerry Brown is the most pro-gun candidate).

    I guess I can offer no settled opinion–no surprise, it earns furious debate among gunnies. I will say that those of you supporting Coats had really better make sure it is worth it, and make sure the gunnies know it isn’t because they’re taken for granted, because there is a lot of unrest in the gun-rights community over anti-gun Republicans. A *lot* of Rs have been taking the gun vote for granted as though there is never a penalty for horse-trading the issue away once in office, and it is costing us. There *will* be a huge defection to Brown here in California, for example, led by some of the most influential CA gun-rights names. There is an unquantifiable but significant cost to losing the trust of many of the one-issue gun voters that the “R” is the safe choice. Loss of future support and trust is part of what you have to weigh. Maybe it is worth it, but the cost is real.

    I suppose it would help if there were a public “come to Jesus” moment with Coats publicly promising to vote against any new gun control measure. I guess there won’t be, though.

  • Samuel

    The logical basis is: bazookas, nuclear weapons, tanks and fighter planes are not firearms. 50. cal machine guns, the M249, M4, MP5, etc. are firearms. The government should not be able to ban firearms. They should be able to ban or control vehicles of war, explosives, and other implements of war that are not firearms.

  • Doc Holliday

    but I guess that is why I said you are not listening on this, you keep going back to the same left wing rhetoric about nuclear weapons. Anyway, here is a thread we discussed it in a couple weeks ago, you were there, I was, and the issue was guns and Coats. I know we have discussed it other times as well, but my search ability is poor :)

    http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/05/04/coats-wins-marlin-stutzman-becomes-a-conservative-rock-star/

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    listening after earlier being accused of “not listening.”

    You have never provided convincing responses to my two questions.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the constitutional test is “bear” arms. A bazooka is an arm that can be borne. Firearms are also implements of war. And don’t most gun rights advocates agree to the banning of machine guns, which are firearms?

    I really would appreciate a response as I am trying to get my mind around how many hoops one has to jump thru to think that Coats and others deserve such denunciation on such a fine point as the demarcation line of weapons that can be possessed by civilians esp when the legal basis of same seems so broad.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    health permits. Will get back to this after I’m well.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    constitutional issue and if you think by referring to rate of fire, that I mean to belittle the issue, please disabuse yourself of that notion. I was drawn to that as a seeming demarcation line due to many guns rights advocates’ distinction between machine (non-repeating, automatics) guns and repeating, semi-automatics. I’m just trying to figure out the line, since there obviously must be one given technology and the destruction one man could do with same, and to show how extreme it is to treat Coats’ vote so harshly given the concessions that there is a line.

    more later
    really sick
    enjoying the discussion
    will be more up to speed after I print your responses and study in more detail.
    thx guy
    I really am trying to understand this issue because I am a gun rights advocate myself, in the sense that I am a conservative original intent constitutionalist.

  • marshmom

    ………to the banning of machine guns. ANY rights taken from the individual explicitly stated in the constitution is wrong. Period.

    I wouldn’t hold this against Coats for the rest of his life, no, I think the whole idea of why this would make people upset and hard to look past is the question of “If he’s willing to support an assault weapons ban, what else would he support?” How far would it go?? Could the Obama administration make him knuckle under in the issue if they took it up?

    I think that bothers people more than anything about the Coats situation.

  • tcgeol

    I agree with you that the word “bear” in the Second Amendment means something, as befits originalists. My concept is that it would apply to anything carried/used by a normal infantryman, which is what most of the militia would be. That includes semi-auto, full-auto, silencers, short-barreled rifles and shotguns, and many other weapons types that are restricted right now. That could also include such things as bazookas to the best of my knowledge.

    It does not include NBC weapons, since that would not be included as part of a regular foot soldier’s gear. Things like tanks and fighters, while not necessarily falling under the Second Amendment, would fall under the 10th Amendment, and the federal government would not be allowed to ban them. It should be a state matter, and even then, they shouldn’t be able to arbitrarily regulate them.

    Does this answer the question a little better?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • altonfoley

    That flag burning is a form of social expression (speech). My only request is this; If you feel so strongly in your cause, you should be willing to express those ideas by burning your flag in the parking lot of your local VFW post, on a Saturday afternoon.

  • Doc Holliday

    I have offered more than convincing arguments against the idea of conflating the AWB with allowing people to own nukes. This is a conservative pro 2A site, I suggest you take another tack if you are trying to get people to support your guy. peeing in someones wheaties does not usually get them on your side.

  • Doc Holliday

    on supporting Second Amendment infringements? I support Coats, so that is not the issue. The issue is you fed us with so much cotton candy here some didn’t see the broccoli line, which is your support/utter lack of anger, at the banning of semi-automatic rifles and pistols.

    btw, TC was clear, if you knew what “otherwise legal” meant, you would understand the issue better. You say you own no firearms, maybe you just don’t know as much about the issue as some others here?

    By “otherwise legal”, TC was referring to the fact that the Clinton Gun Ban, banned semi automatic pistols and rifles, weapons that have been in civilians hands since early in the 20th century. The banned weapons would have been legal if they did not have a few to many rounds in the mag, or they did not have a bayonet lug, or if they were not black and scary looking.

    anyway, I am out of this, arguing with you about this is a waste of time.

  • Doc Holliday
  • Return to Revolution

    after reading this:

    http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/04/20/does-indiana-really-remember-dan-coats/

    A minor point though, since Coats is the nominee, not saying he shouldn’t be supported. Great post.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    in that list look pretty good now, esp those that opposed the federalization of many state laws. Coats was not perfect, but he was a leader in the Reagan Revolution and a very reliable overall conservative vote. Not an “otherwise sterling” record, but mostly stained steel!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Doc Holliday

    btw, I said I am supporting the Republican, so you should be happy with me. We obviously don’t agree on gun control but my side already won that argument anyway.

    So, I ask you a new question. Can you give examples of these “pro 2a gun rights guys” who are demonizing Coats right now? Do you really think a large group of Indiana Republicans will vote Dem or sit out the election?

    You say now is the time for unity, so I hope you are not causing DISunity through yellow journalism. not at accusation, just a request to support your main argument here.

  • Doc Holliday

    “hat?s not really an accident?the gun control lobby *intended* you to make that mistake. Rate of fire is simply not an issue here.”

    they did intend to confuse people when they talked on the House floor about rifles that “spray” rounds. And I have explained to GC and others before here that the greatest irony of the AWB is that is specifically did NOT ban fully automatic weapons, which have remained legal all along with an NFA stamp.

  • Doc Holliday
  • Doc Holliday

    this is not the Constitutional convention you know. We have some how kind of sorta protected the intent of the 2A for 220 odd years. Right now repeating rifles ARE protected, so why must we, conservatives, need to decide now whether they should be.

    I understand always keeping your argument tight in case of opposition, but it seems to me you are defending what is now a dated, FURTHER restriction than we have at this time.

  • Doc Holliday

    carried a single-action bolt-action rifle. It was not their evil Assault weapons, but their use of combined arms and speed that won the short lived victory.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • tcgeol

    A commonly used acronym among those who support the Second Amendment. It is sometimes also seen as RTKBA.

  • arnoldvinick

    “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

    I have always thought these words protected every citizens right to own a gun. When this document was written however, assault weapons, machine guns, semi-automatics, and automatic weapons hadn’t yet been invented. Handguns weren’t even that popular. The framers were talked about having the right to keep a musket in one’s house, not a stockpile of assault weapons.

    The combined population of the United Kingdom, Germany, France, and Japan is roughly equivalent to that of the United States. Last year we had about 32,000 gun-related deaths. Those four countries had about 150. Do you think Americans are just more homicidal? Or is it that those countries have gun control laws?

    There’s more than 200 million guns out there, so banning them now only hurts those people who honestly try to protect their families. And as a Chicagoan, I can tell you that Richie Daley’s gun ban doesn’t work. The Constitution protects the right to bear arms. There is no constitutional protection for ammunition though. Why don’t we go after that and stop the senseless bloodshed?

  • FreedomIsLearned

    a diary. I’ve mostly been a reader here so far though….

  • Doc Holliday

    I very rarely write diaries. I could do it but somehow I just became more of a counter-puncher. I have written many comments that could have been diaries, but I just like to react to what is written first. Not to say that won’t change tomorrow.

    You should write a diary on this, I will recco it for sure :)

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • nonedare27

    Focus, people! After the wandering comments, some facts. Coats has a proven record against gun rights. Hostettler promised, at a 2d Amendment meeting before his first election that he would not vote for any gun control laws nor would he vote for any bill which provided amnesty for illegal aliens. He kept both of those promises during his entire time as congressman.

    Ellsworth screwed up on Obamacare with his naive belief that a group of novus ordo nuns have opinions worth listening to and a socialist president can be trusted to enforce an executive order when it no longer suits him.

    The high muckity-mucks of the Indiana GOP chose Coats in spite of the mood of the country for return to the Constitution. They also tolerate Lugar who is a RINO and globalist of the first order. They cannot be allowed to continue to destroy the GOP. I WILL VOTE FOR A THIRD PARTY IF A SUITABLE ONE RUNS, OR ELSE FOR ELLSWORTH. Hopefully Coats will crawl back under his lucrative lobbiest ROCK where he obviously belongs.

  • ktsub

    If you and likes like you, cost us a Republican majority that powers conservatives, for continued Democratic control that puts liberals in charge, forf some lofty goal of teaching “Republicans” a lesson, then youhave no right to complain on the current political agenda.

    This is the wrong site for you, Coats is the nominee so get on board the bus or get off. Everyone needs to row the same direction.

  • http://moelane.com/ Moe Lane

    We have no time for RiNOs.

  • JadedByPolitics

    and do NOT come here to pretend you are anything BUT!

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens