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Maximizing happiness pursuits on zoning boards

Property rights, free exercise of religion and the consent of the governed

Bans against smoking Winstons and Salems in Winston-Salem, N.C. restaurants; snail darters’ right to life as they kill jobs; and Kelo-like takings of habitable property deemed a “blight” on municipal tax revenue coffers found DeVine Law zealously advocating expansive private property rights.

Yet, somehow the following Ground Zero Mosque (GZM) construction made by most Republicans (Charles Krauthammer’s version below) sounded like fingernails on gamecock’s blackboard:

No one disputes the right to build; the whole debate is about the propriety, the decency of doing so.

We assume that our most respected conservative sage would also add President Barack Hussein Obama’s “out” concerning compliance with local law and ordinances, given Krauthammer’s seemingly contradictory argument made only a few days earlier, with which we agree:

America is a free country where you can build whatever you want — but not anywhere. That’s why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn’t meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.

These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz — and no mosque at Ground Zero.

We’ll give Charles the benefit of the doubt given the absence of any reference to the right to build “at a particular location” in his first argument,  but many sincere conservatives have made moral and constitutional arguments (property rights, religion and equal protection among other bases) against now denying Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf from developing the Park51 Islamic cultural center and mosque (GZM).

After all, declarers of independence that also wrote the U.S. Constitution considered private property rights so essential to “the pursuit of happiness” that the term “private property” was Thomas Jefferson’s initial companion with life and liberty.

Therefore, given that the Lower Manhattan real estate owners’ parcel is snail darter-free; mosques are not Wal-Marts; Islam is a religion; and the five-times-a-day, sweet-to-ObamaEars Muslim call to prayer reverberates smoke-free, then, ipso facto, they, of course, have the right to build Khalid Sheik Mohammed’s (pictured) preferred place of worship near the graves of his 2700+ victims and yet-to-be-scheduled “OJ” trial.

The assumptions made about the extent and scope of property and religious rights as opposed to the rights of the consent of the governed in their cities and states made by sincere conservatives in favor of Rauf’s “right” are strong and deserve serious consideration.

DeVine law thinks the flaws in the expansive property rights argument are part of a mistake many conservatives make when they seek (or rather don’t seek) to translate the Bill of Rights divorced from the context in which the Constitution was ratified by the States.

Constitutional federalism on the state and local level

The signers of the Declaration of Independence and their ancestors had enjoyed life, liberty and private property rights-driven happiness pursuits for over a century before their King’s decrees and a distant Parliament intolerably usurped the consent of the governed.

The quartering of British troops and the raising of taxes without representation led to a massacre in Boston and eventually a shot heard round the world.

That shot fired at Lexington was not aimed at the local zoning board

Those tired of being a King’s subjects wrote Articles of Confederation, and, later, what has proved the world’s most enduring governing document to prevent a federal government from acting as royalty. The U.S. Constitution sought to preserve the religious and property rights they had enjoyed in their states and was not a suicide pact granting minorities of any kind the right to be their kings in their cities, towns and states.

States retained their broad and expansive police powers to protect the lives, safety, morals and integrity of their communities.

No man is an island; no man ever was an island; and the Bill of Rights wasn’t written to erect individual man as an island. Men live in communities, and the exercise of their rights take place there. This fact remains even with Fourteenth Amendments and incorporation doctrines.

The right of self-government

If private property rights were plenary and unfettered, there would be no zoning boards. Rather, there would be anarchy.

Let us revisit and re-phrase the supposed certitudes with which we began this discussion. I contend that

New York City, of course, has the right allow Muslims that consider the United States to have been an “accessory to the crime” of 911 and who refuse to denounce Hamas as a terrorist group to build a mosque on top of the bones of the victims of that 2001 crime.

No one has the right to use their particular property for any particular purpose at any particular location.

All citizens are entitled to “equal protection” of the laws; free exercise of religion; and just compensation when government takes their property.

Free exercise of religion is not simply the right to “worship”

President Obama’s initial support of the building of the GZM extolled the virtues of America’s freedom of “religion”, rather than the virtues of the mere “freedom of worship” that he and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have been enunciating at home and abroad over the past two years.

Part of the “reach out” to a Muslim world supposedly traumatized by former President George W. Bush’s liberation of over tens of millions of Muslims from the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, has been to soft-pedal the Liberty Project in favor of tolerance for Sharia which allows only the right to think about Jesus as Lord in one’s head, i.e. worship. No Baptist churches are being erected near Mecca.

Moreover, whenever liberals like Obama, and Supreme Court justices Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan seek to ban bibles, prayer, crosses and nativity scenes from public property, it is useful to reduce the free exercise of religion to unspoken thoughts exercising solely within skulls. But if we want foot baths in airports or mosques as replacements for Twin Towers, then please discern James Madison ‘s original intent.

The fact is that the free exercise of religion encompasses much more than mere worship and does include the right of an organized religion to own property and practice their religion thereon as well as certain practices in the public square. But the right to freely exercise one’s religion does not entitle one to wear a burka to first grade or do peyote in one’s church.

Clearly, the First Amendment does not compel Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the NYC Zoning Authorities to grab their ankles when imams demand they bend over.

Private property rights, equal protection and Fifth Amendment “takings”

Yours truly recently lost a crusade against second-hand smoke Nazis in North Carolina. We loathe D.C. Big Brothers that kill jobs supposedly protecting fragile Mother Earth and those creatures that crawl upon it from cow farts and my Certs-enhanced breath.

But, DeVine Law never claimed that property rights demanded the unfettered right to build anything and do anything, so long as one held a fee simple title to a parcel of anywhere on the Fruited Plain.

However, we do admit that we have argued for a very expansive reading of the “just compensation” clause, e.g. lost profits from ordinances banning smoking in bars and numerous other regulations that prohibit the “highest and best use” of one’s property.

Moreover, with respect to equal protection, I came up one vote short in my home state’s supreme court from requiring cities to settle all sewage back-up claims or none!

Post-conservative epiphany, I am glad I lost that case, but I still approach the issue with humility. However, the fact is that too broad a definition of takings of private property, absent requiring a transfer of title, would make “ordered liberty” impossible. The Bill of Rights were not passed to create disorder.

How I would defend a sane New York City zoning board against this mosque or any mosque close to Ground Zero

The Constitution does not require one to check their common sense at the door when considering unique circumstances attendant to building permit requests.

Common sense reveals that not all religions are the same and that equal protection of the laws does not dictate equal application to unequal entities, whether they be liquor stores, strip clubs, Baptist bingo parlors or mosques.

Even the Drive-By Media understands this, apparently, given their singular mission of late to convince Americans that their President is a Christian, even if NASA’s new frontier is the space between Morocco and Indonesia, rather than Outer Space, but I digress.

The police power of the state is empowered to consider that a mosque near Ground Zero, divorced from the views of the owners, would be a threat to public safety and order and that a Greek Orthodox Church would not pose.

There is no question that a zoning board can consider the backgrounds of particular property owners when passing on a building permit and the uses to which a building will be used.

I don’t think that current precedent would require that Imam Rauf be compensated for a reversal of the prior zoning decision, although I certainly think they should be reimbursed any costs incurred in reliance on the prior decision that would only have been incurred for the purpose of operating a mosque at that location, i.e. religious fixtures.

Lilburn, Georgia managed to stop mosque construction while our Christian President wasn’t looking, after all. Jefferson and the founders sought to maximize happiness pursuits via the gatherings of the like-minded in communities.

But those are just the gritty details that would have to be dealt with by a non-leftist, non-cowardly zoning board sans a warped view of tolerance.

NYC has the right to surrender to Osama bin laden, but Osama’s acolytes have no right to desecrate sacred ground and those NY officials that assert that Muslims have such a right, while immediately adding that they oppose the desecration, are the aiders and abettors of the enemies of Liberty that seek to turn more American soil into sacred burial grounds in Fort Hood, Detroit and Times Square.

Weakness invited aggression, and I fear the core of the Big Apple has turned rotten since September 11, 2001.

Mike DeVine

“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Charlotte ObserverThe Minority Report and Examiner.com archives

www.devinelawvista.com

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COMMENTS

  • ywhyvon1

    I’m tired of all this PC crap too!

  • pilgrim

    Excellent diary, and I am especially pleased that you detail how the concept of consent of the governed has been an American tradition older than the US Constitution. The far left that says any one who opposes this mosque being built near where the World Trade Center once stood are unAmerican are loons and moonbats. Those far left folks don’t know anything about American popular sovereignty.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    and liberal judges also need to re-visit the concept; understand that minority rights do not demand minority rule; and that even conservative principles can’t fashion a Utopia on Earth anymore than liberal principles can.

    And that, moreover, while its easier to be a conservative when restricting the federal government, to also understand that state and locales HAVE to do some liberal tasks!

    There is no self-enforcing mechanism for the defining of “rights” and that we didn’t trade a King for federal judges to play God. No, rights get defined by someone, and the best place is usually closer to home.

  • aesthete

    I really do mean that. I also appreciate the serious, and not dismissive, treatment of the subject of balancing rights. I very much respect your opinion on the issue, and it’s obvious that you haven’t adopted it on a whim, of as a result of shallow thinking. However, I remain unconvinced: a violation close to home, while likely easier to repeal and thus preferable, is no less injurious for being nearer to hearth. As the line from the movie “The Patriot” goes, why should I trade a tyrant a mile away for 1000 tyrants a mile away? While yes, the Constitution was meant to corral the federal government, and not state governments, it was modeled on Virginia’s Constitution, and the Bill of Rights took its inspiration from the Virginia Declaration of Rights. Further, other states had similar injunctions against the violation of its citizens’ rights, and ensured protection of the same. Thus, the American tradition is not simply one of localized, decentralized government: it is also one of liberty for its citizens. The shot heard ’round the world was not aimed at Lexington because it didn’t have to be: by 1776, it had already rectified many of the injustices that had spawned the event in the first place.

    The question regarding zoning boards is, to what extent do they violate property rights (that is to say, how injurious are they to the act the “means of acquiring and possessing property”, to quote the Virginia Declaration), after which another question must be asked: are they useful for securing or balancing any other rights? Leaving aside the very good work that Milton Friedman has done on the issue (it lays out a persuasive case against unfettered zoning, but is unrelated to the point I will attempt to make), it is difficult to say that they are either the manifestation of the peoples’ will, or that the people should be vested with the power to deprive another of their property rights based on aesthetic or personal dislike: for if rights are to be abrogated based on the transient tastes of the people, they are not being taken seriously.

    “Common sense” being the clarion call of those who would have us take rights from the citizenry, it must be asked how common sense would be checked out at the door were we to remain consistent in the application of rights. The right to speech and freedom of assembly allow us to say what we wish about the mosque, and to the mosque owners: Mrs Palin, for instance, was well within her rights in her statements to the mosque builders, and her supplication for them to wield their rights with discretion. Were not critics of McCain-Feingold criticized for their obsequiousness to the Constitution, instead of the god hailed as “common sense”? Do people not abuse their right to free speech daily? Is it not “common sense” do restrict that right to common decency? Forgive me for grandstanding, but I say that common sense and ordered liberty lie in the consistent application of rights to both the fool and the wise: history and the good sense of the American people will sort out which is which, as they are doing now.

    To me, the choice is between allowing the continual erosion of our rights for understandable reasons, and making a stand on rights for the unpopular, and thus asserting them even more clearly for those of us in the mainstream. If we don’t make a stand for the rights of the unpopular, while using our rights to condemn their use of their license, not only do we risk losing our ability to condemn without violence or threat of violence, we also risk the same happening to us when our opinions inevitably become unpopular or “indefensible” in “mainstream thought”.

    At any rate, a well-reasoned argument. Highly recommended.

  • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

    …they sent out emissaries trying to buy off the great Khan..and as payment fot their fortitude he ate them all

  • JadedByPolitics

    “Clearly, the First Amendment does not compel Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the NYC Zoning Authorities to grab their ankles when imams demand they bend over.”

    Right on, right on :)

  • pilgrim
  • janis

    in government and on the Supreme Court only refer to the Constitution when they think it bolsters their specious arguments. And, surprise, surprise, only when they know that what they are arguing for is something that common sense and, especially, common decency, does not support.

    May they be haunted by 72 Virginians.

  • penguin2

    Just as inherent in the idea of individual rights was written the protection for the minority against the majority – and Vassar noted a connection in a different way:

    secularists can live under the protection of a faith-based society just as Jehovah?s witnesses can live under a society that will fight to protect their freedom to do so?but opposite cannot ever be true.

    To clarify this point in your post, I would add – a faith based Judaic-Christian society – which is the foundation for that incredible governing document, giving us these freedoms to even have options.

    Your post shows that our society/communities are to be protected from the tyranny of minorities against the majority. Amazing that is should work both ways!

    ….and was not a suicide pact granting minorities of any kind the right to be their kings in their cities, towns and states.

    My favorite line from your post:

    The Constitution does not require one to check their common sense at the door when considering unique circumstances attendant to building permit requests.

    BTW, never heard of a Baptist bingo parlor, Catholic, but not Baptist, (she said with a laugh). :-)

    Also, being Greek (no Greek Church rebuilding permit) and native born New Yorker, this touches close to my heart.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • pilgrim

    If the SF Giants decide to have a gay pride day at the AT&T ballpark, and gay couples get discount prices on concessions etc, then conservative Christians and Muslims can’t stop it. You can’t use FRC lawyers to sue the SF Giants for damages to your moral sensitivities, because the popular sovereignty of San Fran are in favor and support the gays. All you can do is not attend the game if you would be offended by public displays of affection.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    with majorities of the likeminded as more likely to maximize happiness pursuits than top down application of even his Virginia rights.

    I think ‘thete’s absolutist position has major flaws, especially as applied to particular circumstances. It seems to assume that ONLY if Rauf’s mosque is built at Ground Zero can his rights be vindicated. Such a position renders the meaning of rights to the whims of any one individual.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    free exercise of the Islamic religion doesn’t it?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I had hoped that my:

    “No man is an island; no man ever was an island; and the Bill of Rights wasn?t written to erect individual man as an island. Men live in communities, and the exercise of their rights take place there. This fact remains even with Fourteenth Amendments and incorporation doctrines.”

    would have concentrated the mind on objections to Shinto shrines at Pearl, strip malls at Gettysburg, etc

    I would like to read what Milton Friedman had to say about “unfettered zoning” if I knew where it was.

    These are not easy arguments on either side, but it seems that concepts of individual freedom must be tempered by the reality of the community and the desire for order.

    Communities simply will not go slowly into the night as God is stripped from pledges of allegiance, etc. One can enjoy there rights without being made mayor of their parcel of land and allowed to dominate a community skyline of subject the community to disturbances of the peace.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    are sinners!…smile…I hear dancing took place after B6 was called….

  • oblio

    (I know, Is Outrage!, or as the Greeks might say anaxios ;) )

    it also is close to my heart.

  • realskinny

    never settle anything. I”m with you that NYC can handle this on their own—if self-government still existed there. In my opinion it does not.

    You mentioned holding title to land in fee simple. Ah, once one of the glories of the earth, human beings holding title to land for their own use and enjoyment. Alas, it has gone the way of the backyard outhouse, the neighbor who could supply you with horse manure for the garden and the wonderful taste of homemade butter. 60 years ago, many if not most small towns and nearly all rural areas had no zoning and no building codes. And anarchy did not rule the land. Property buyers who did not understand caveat emptor soon found their very own teachable moment. Insurers would not insure poorly built buildings. All of the country got along quite well for 125 years without zoning, and most did well for 175 years without it. And anarchy did not rule the land. Zoning and building codes are just two more “improvements” we owe to the progressives.

    I served for 10 years on a county planning commission (essentially county wide zoning). Zoning, in it’s simplest and most accurate description, is the desire of some property owners to control and benefit from their neighbor’s property without being put to the trouble and expense of buying it. Zoning may be something we cannot get rid of there being more neighbors than property owners, but we shouldn’t kid ourselves that it’s a good thing.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Scope

    There was a strip mall which was rented to a nightclub in one of the sections. The strip mall had been there for many years. A developer bought the land behind that strip mall. There was little distance between the properties. Some that bought the houses in the development, were in close proximity to the strip mall. The nightclub owners had functioned there for years, it was a popular hangout.

    Someone in particular in the front of the line, only feet away from the strip mall went to the City Council to request a “noise ordinance” to be imposed. City Council did in fact adopt a “noise ordinance” for the club. The decible range was imposed, but, it wasn’t enough for this property owner. She has been back again and again in complaints against the Club. She won, the club finally closed down. She said she is monitoring any noise coming from the strip mall, and, will report it poste hase, in other words.

    My story above shows that, you can please some of the people some of the time, you can please some others none of the time. No man is an island, nor should they ever be. If this isn’t a case of a lack of zoning ordinance, I don’t know what is. I personally don’t want a pig farm next to me, or an Adult sex shop. Thank you very much.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Scope

    and I love when you say “No man is an island; no man ever was an island; and the Bill of Rights wasn’t written to erect individual man as an island. Men live in communities, and the exercise of their rights takes place there.” and then, “If private property rights were the plenary and unfettered, there would be no zoning boards. Rather, there would be anarchy.”

    In some states/areas the people have installed those that have already produced anarchy, NY is a prime example, with the Mosque permitting decisions. The few “men on their own island” have decided to thwart the will of the people. I don’t agree that this is a local issue, as some have argued, it is a national issue. 9/11 affected every American in this country.

    I was very happy to see you argue the point from a different angle. Everyone seems to want to point to the written law as the decider in this case. Even many on our side feel compelled to speak to that, out of political correctness. Not many of the national voices (like Krauthammer)are hitting on the fact that it is against natural law, a sense of decency, and in compliance with American traditions and culture, to not invite the enemy into our home. The few will get us all killed with their political correctness. I have said for a while now that since the coronation of Obama, Krauthammer has made some statements that have made my head spin.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • aesthete

    Progressive governance of cities is all about the use of broad zoning powers to achieve progressive ends. In this case, IMO, Bloomburg made the right decision for the wrong reasons: namely, that he “likes” looking like the cosmopolitan jet set. Progressive governance is in no means averse to using zoning boards (the opposite of the supposed “anarchy” advocated), and regardless of where you stand on the issue of zoning boards and eminent domain, let’s not pretend that progressive governance is about allowing unfettered anarchy in cities; Bloomburg, Chicago, and several other progressive cities are extremely unfree in such matters.

  • realskinny

    that comes with it. It’s messy Scope. Should everyone in a political jurisdiction lose the right to enjoy their property without interference so a few can tell their neighbors what to do? It seems you answer this in the affirmative. You have plenty of company in that most people–even on Redstate—probably approve of zoning.

    In Kansas, property zoned agricultural can do any kind of farming they want. So if you were living next to some wheat field, you’d want to stay on good terms with your neighbor. They could put a pig feedlot across the fence and the only complaint anyone would listen to would involve runoff. As for the sex shop, our forefathers would have handled that by burning it down.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38673

    Can these radical Muslims say ANYTHING and still get to rub Americas nose in the bones of the dead?

    The latest is in addition to other quotes that were just as bad that we already discussed.

    Can you give an example of anything he could say that would cause you to deny the mosque building permit?

  • spainishirish

    The real issue is why NYC chose to fast track this project when it will drag its heels on the size of a fast food restaurant’s handicapped restroom. The only conceivable answer is a confluence of corruption, political correctness, and a power play by someone (my guess is Bloomberg is whoring for Obama here). As someone who deals routinely with zoning issues, I can assure you any planning commission can make life hell on Earth for any developer of any project and more often than not prevail in court, no matter how arbitrary the decision. An appellate remand of an adverse zoning decision is, to put it mildy, rare. Zoning boards, historical commissions, and similar agencies have outrageous discretion.

    So here we have an incendiary proposal and it gets approved at the speed of light. The Greek Orthodox church that was destroyed by the terrorist attacks is the norm in NYC planning–it is going through a second hell simply to rebuild. In that sense it is instructive.

    NYC’s political establishment knew this was an abomination and thought their rare respect for property rights, let alone religious freedom, would permit this proposal to sail through. Not only were they wrong, they need to be reminded they were wrong until each and every one of them are hounded out of office.

  • aesthete

    wouldn’t take into consideration things that aren’t relevant to specific, measurable grievances, and would rightfully allow GC, Jsob, and others on this board would probably disagree with the policies instituted by Aesthetestan, and though I’d disagree for the reasons noted here, that’s fine and intellectually defensible. Pretending that progressives are fond of the libertarian anarchistic construct, as Scope did, is fraudulent and lacks the intellectual defensibility that your zoning board argument has in spades.

    (As to what he would say to give my zoning boards pause, my answer is nothing: if it is criminal (libel, threatening of a person’s life, etc.) it should be dealt with by the criminal system, not the zoning board. If it is repellant speech, it should not be penalized by the overarching hand of government. Pretty extreme, but that’s my view.

  • aesthete

    But the question of why something is being done is different from the question of whether the thing should be done. Bloomburg is a pompous political whore who likes hanging with the jet set: that much everyone can agree upon. I sincerely doubt that most people on the conservative/libertarian side of the aisle yearn for the Orthodox church to have its permit denied (there’s actually a sordid tale of that whole mess involving politicization of 9/11 and Port Authority’s zoning boards), or for businesses to have a tougher time at expanding, and thus the issue among conservatives should be one of property rights. (Interestingly and encouragingly enough, most conservatives, including Palin and basically all others, have acknowledged the legal right of the Imam to build his mosque.)

  • spainishirish

    In this world, there is. And since we have to deal with reality, whenever a project receives lavish attention in contrast with every other one, our suspicion gene should get agitated. That happened here.

    Since these are two different issues as you noted, we need to look at them seperately.

  • JSobieski

    then they have no purpose.

    If a zoning board can’t say “we do not approve the construction of a war trophy financed by foreign powers” then a zoning board isn’t doing its job.

    The difference between being a conservative and being a bit of a utopian libertarian is the acknowledgement by conservatives that perfect zoning will never occur, law is always tainted by human imperfection, and that there are truly evil people out there who want to remove our little experiment from the face of the earth.

    A presumption of innocence should not be applied to a structure that will be paid for by the government of Iran.

  • JSobieski

    If someone is proposing that all such restrictions be eliminated in exchange for the construction of the GZM, I am definitely willing to be convinced. However, that is not the transaction on the table.

  • aesthete

    chalk me down as a utopian libertarian, for the difference between a zoning board which enforces community standards/nuisances and one that plays favorites with the rights of the community-sanctioned is a distinction without a difference. I would also hope that one would be consistent in holding to this belief in the power of zoning boards, and that a conservative who genuinely believed this would accept a zoning board ruling which applied the nuisance metric to, say, a Southern Baptist church building in secular Seattle.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • JSobieski

    and lots of evidence to the contrary.

    The public nuisance metric is what is applied all over the country. Permits get denied for all sorts of pedestrian reasons, like traffic congestion. There are several “historical” sites within driving distance of my house.

    If the site of the worst terrorist attack in US history isn’t a historical site, what the heck are all the other jurisdictions doing?

    In other words, consistency in the application of the rule of law cuts against the GZM, not in favor of it.

    I accept zoning/permit rulings all the time. Heck, my backyard is a protected wetland even though the lake is manmade. There is sign paid for with taxpayer dollars telling me that I can’t do squat to my own property even though there are no endangered species issues and the lake is an old rock quary that has been populated with fish at my expense.

    My point is not such much to disagree with you as to get people to understand the realities of land use restrictions in this country. There are a lot of people talking about “property rights” who are absolutely naive about how things currently work for everyone else.

    A bit more contextual knowledge and opposing this monstrosity becomes far easier. In any case, the Islamists really miscalculated on this issue. It has put back their cause quite a bit as people vocalize what was previously unsaid.

    To that outcome, I raise my beer bottle and grab another slice of ham. Pet the dog afterwards.

  • JSobieski

    I would pick Aesthete.

    Just wanted to clarify the record. I would also load up for bear on some arguments . . .

  • aesthete

    on the general lack of recognition and devaluation of property rights in this country. I suppose that some people are uninformed about how unfree they really are, and are making the argument on the assumption that property rights are more assiduously protected than they currently are. In that sense, you’re right: as far as zoning boards and property rights go, the GZM was the “one that got away”, or perhaps, “the one that paid off NYC’s extortion racket/got in with the professional grievance crowd”. But just as I wouldn’t be choking on tears to hear that some Jews escaped a Tsarist pogrom, even if one of those Jews was generally a jerk, so too I’m not overly concerned that the GZM mosque squeaked by without incident. Would that others, like the St Nicolas Orthodox Church, were so fortunate or politically connected!

    I’m honestly not too utopian in real life. Principles-wise, I suppose I try for philosophical consistency in ways that would be unrealistic, or that would never stand in a pluralistic democracy, but as far as enactment of those principles goes, I prefer incrementalism: I’m not as extreme in the defense of liberty as the Founding Fathers before me, I’m afraid! OTOH, I am inspired by the successes that some “untrammeled” liberties have visited upon our nation; the broad and correct interpretations of the First and Second Amendments have been very good to us where tried.

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    I cannot get too upset about this Mosque because New York is allowing it, therefore in my eyes it is a New York matter and I would feel like an interloper to get involved.

    If you say a poll of New Yorkers are really against it, but they Mayor is for it, then I say Tough Sh*t. Those liberal jackasses in NY twice elected that left wing idiot, so they get what they deserve.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    would dominate the NY skyline. That would be abhorrent to me as an American that the symbol of that religion replace the Twin Towers as the signature part of the skyline of America’s greatest city.

  • cwilson

    and the ground where that occurred to ALSO be purely local matters.

    If so, then tell you what: next time the islamofascists demolish part of an American city, we’ll just let that city or state respond. No? Don’t like that?

    Well, then whether a radical imam and his Iranian backers get to erect a victory monument on or even near the site of the attack is not a purely local matter, either.

  • cwilson

    there was a big to-do about one of the regional airports. It had been there for decades, but the surrounding houses/neighborhoods were eventually “gentrified”.

    The new yuppie owners — who bought their property with the full knowledge that there was an existing airport next door, and they were under the approach route — raised a ruckus about the noise and “diminished property values” caused by the airport, and continued to try to get it shut down. I don’t know if they succeeded, since I left, but I do know that managed to get its operating hours reduced.

    That always irked me: the darned airport was there FIRST — and if the new owners were concerned about “diminished property values”, it sure didn’t seem to bother them when they BOUGHT the property in the first place!

  • spainishirish

    to consider September 11 a “local issue.” You might want to rethink this one.