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Conservatives should welcome end to filibusters

Just as simple Democratic Party Senate majorities can change their body’s rules at will, regardless of rules that have existed for over 50 years that require super majorities, simple We the People majorities can also change which senators rule.

But first things first. The United States Senate gets to make its own rules, period:

“Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and, with the Concurrence of two-thirds, expel a Member.” – Article I, Section 5, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution.

Given that explicit grant of power from the U.S. Constitution, the “political question” doctrine of the United States Supreme Court ensures that it would never overturn a Senate rules change agreed to by a simple majority vote of the members. Therefore, any claim that the filibuster rules change proposed by the Democrats is unconstitutional, is without merit.

End of filibuster would be best for conservatives

Most Americans are conservative and the Senate rules have essentially allowed a liberal political minority, perpetual rule over much of our lives for decades, without much accountability. There has been a disconnect most of my life between the principles and desires of large majorities of We the People and the laws passed by their representatives in Congress. So stark has been the disconnect, that for long periods the majority has been referred to as the “silent majority.”

One way the majority has been kept silent has been via the liberal use of the filibuster by liberals, who now constitute but 20% of Americans and never more than 30%.

The filibuster is not a part of the original design of the Senate by the Founders and so there should be no nostalgic desire that it be kept as part of the rules.

To give one stark example of how America would be much better off today if the filibuster had not existed is that areas for oil exploration would long ago have been greatly expanded to ANWR and offshore from the Lower Forty-Eight. We would have much more supply of domestic oil, the price would be cheaper, more Americans would have good paying jobs and the USA would be more secure from being held hostage by radical Muslims.

Since 1978 Democrats as President, Congressional majorities and/or as Senate filibuster minorities have kept Americans at bay in the development of our own oil resources. No enemy of the United States has done, nor could have dreamed to have done, more economic and national security damage to the US than the Democrats have been able to do, thanks mainly to the filibuster.

Conservatives should welcome an end to this Senate Rule and vote for said end.

However, I do agree with those who cite the Democrats for venality for violating the Senate’s own rules as a continuing body requiring a 2/3 vote for rules changes, but have always thought the concept of same was tenuous at best and that the better practice would be to be able to make rules changes at the first of each new Congress via simply majority.

My wish would be that enough Republicans would vote for an end to the filibuster rule to meet the 2/3 rule requirement. But if not, I still hope that filibusters are outlawed for the good of America’s future. We have a Bill of Rights to protect minorities and we have separation of powers and all kinds of saucer-coolers, if that is what we need to prevent rabid and destructive pure democracy.

But on most matters, it is best that majorities actually make the laws in a republican form of government. Lets be about that business.

An aside on constitutionality of judicial filibusters

As an aside as pertains the filibuster as applied to judicial nominations, in addition to legislation, the Constitution affords no distinction despite the citing of Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 by some Republicans and others that once threatened a “constitutional option” when Democrats sought to filibuster Justice Samuel Alito when he was nominated:

He [The President of the United States] shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

Some opponents claim that any change in the rules that would allow a minority of Senators to defeat a President’s nominee to the Supreme Court would be unconstitutional via implication since the above requires a two thirds vote for the ratification of treaties. Such stretches in logic would thrill the liberal activist’s mind intent upon stretching the equal protection clause further around our necks.

The better interpretation is that the framers simply made clear that Senate rules could not allow for less than two thirds vote on treaties to secure ratification, with the Senate free to make rules with respect to judges and other matters as it wishes. One might even say that a Senate’s “advice” on judicial nominees might be to not even act upon it and in fact, those that argue against judicial filibusters lose their credibility when they don’t demand votes on all nominees regardless of committee action.

Mike DeVine

“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Charlotte ObserverThe Minority Report and Examiner.com archives

www.devinelawvista.com

COMMENTS

  • Spiral

    Once we get rid of the filibuster, we can stop talking about whether this or that senator or group of senators is being obstructionist, whether this or that party is showing to little respect for Senate tradition and get down to the business of voting on the important issues facing the country.

    We can elect a GOP Senate in 2012, a GOP president in 2012 and get down to the business of putting conservatives on the US federal court of appeals and on the US Supreme Court without worry about whether Barbara Boxer and Chuch Schumer are going to try to filibuster the conservative judicial nominee.

    Same for repealing Obama-care. We won’t have to worry about shoe-horning a repeal of Obama-care into a budget reconciliation package. We can just have a vote and get it done.

    When conservatives bow to “respect for Senate tradition” they have their priorities completely wrong. Respect for Senate tradition should be secondary to advancing the conservative cause. If that means ignoring Senate Rules or changing Senate rules with a simple majority vote, so be it. Chuck Schumer and Barbara Boxer might wail to the media about it, but who cares?

  • Spiral

    Once we get rid of the filibuster, we can stop talking about whether this or that senator or group of senators is being obstructionist, whether this or that party is showing to little respect for Senate tradition and get down to the business of voting on the important issues facing the country.

    We can elect a GOP Senate in 2012, a GOP president in 2012 and get down to the business of putting conservatives on the US federal court of appeals and on the US Supreme Court without worry about whether Barbara Boxer and Chuch Schumer are going to try to filibuster the conservative judicial nominee.

    Same for repealing Obama-care. We won’t have to worry about shoe-horning a repeal of Obama-care into a budget reconciliation package. We can just have a vote and get it done.

    When conservatives bow to “respect for Senate tradition” they have their priorities completely wrong. Respect for Senate tradition should be secondary to advancing the conservative cause. If that means ignoring Senate Rules or changing Senate rules with a simple majority vote, so be it. Chuck Schumer and Barbara Boxer might wail to the media about it, but who cares?

  • http://www.thejoyofreason.com Greg Garrison

    Historically, the filibuster has been a great tool for mischief-making, and Democrats have, I think, used it to greater effect than Republicans.

    Other big problems with it (for our side) come from weak GOP leadership in the Senate and the squishiness of the caucus (Collins, Snowe, Graham, etc).

    That said, I am a little uneasy about the prospect of giving it up as a tool of last resort, especially if Obama decides to nominate judges that would take judicial activism to new levels of radicalism. He has demonstrated clear disdain for the will of the people, and if it looks like the Democrats will get demolished in 2012, such a move would not surprise me.

  • pilgrim

    You are absolutely correct with respect to constitution law that they can end the filibuster. I just am not going to welcome the change. You are also correct that national security damage has been done in the past with holds and filibusters. A small number of Senators who did not want our merchant ships to arm themselves against attacks in 1917 is the reason the Senate changed their rules to have cloture. That was certainly an excellent move. I do not think the move in 1975 to change the cloture rule from 2/3 to 3/5 is so excellent. Since 1975 there have been a lot of really bad laws passed. Had they ended the filibuster in 1975 I think we would have had even more bad law passed. Nothing is perfect, but I prefer to err on the side of gridlock than efficiency. Mussolini had a lot of efficiency and I have heard that the trains ran on time. That is not the direction that I will welcome we head towards.

  • http://travismonitor.blogspot.com Freedoms Truth

    The argument above is for majoritarianism, and asserts that the virtue of that would be the virtue of a conservative majority getting its voice heard.

    Perhaps, but without or without the filibuster, we still have men like Reid getting re-elected and Boxer and Schumer ‘representing’ their states.

    However, another construct of conservatism has been resistance to radical change, and on that score a filibuster is a winner not a loser for conservatives. To put it in simple terms: It stops more bad bills than good bills. Why? Because most bills ARE bad.

    The filibuster has stopped some conservative bills, but for the most part, the filibuster has been a roadblock to Governmental action, which overall has been Governmental activism.

    Plenty of bills would have passed in 2009-2010 without the filibuster that would have been to the detriment of conservatives:
    - Comprehensive immigration reform
    - card check union rule
    - Co2 Waxman-Markey style energy regs
    - more spending
    - a host of other liberal regulations that died due to concerns of a few Democrats

    they could have jettisoned all negotiations with the Maine twins and passed more liberal versions of everything.

    They could also have had a much easier time with Obamacare bill and passed it sooner and bigger, leaving more time for a more aggressive agenda.

    The Senate, with the filibuster rule, has forced bills that are not consensus bi-partisan bill from being passed.

    Stopping all that liberal agenda above from being passed is a good tradeoff for us, compared to losing ANWR and a few conservative agenda items.

    On balance, a Senate without the filibuster will be more active in legislating and therefore more liberal. This is also, btw, one reason why I advocate shorter sessions in Congress – make them take more time off, from May31 to Sept1 and oct 31 to end of year they should be out of session. And no lame duck sessions! Do that and Congress will do less mischief.

    It’s been our good fortune that Reid is attempting this power grab now, at a time when it might boomerang on us, with his mere 53-47 majority, rather than in 2009, at a time when he could have radically altered the operation and results of the Senate.

    Now, it is true that the Republican majority of 2005 had a unique historical oppty, the first time in 50 years of having a Republican President and Congress combined – and a filibuster slowed that down…. and yet what was the ONE bill they ended up pushing. That erstwhile RINO Spectre and Bush and others were pushing comprehensive immigration reform! would we even have had more conservative bills at that time without a filibuster? Who knows, but the same Energy bill that failed to have ANWR drilling did get Ethanol subsidies (nice bipartisan support for pork).

    The filibuster is neither the main problem, nor is its removal the main solution, or indeed ANY solution. It’s the players in the game, the men in the arena, the hands at the wheel. We need to chage the Senate by changing the Senators.

    Should Reid change the rules of the game, it will be incumbent on the Republican Senate of 2013 (we hope it will be) to take that ball and run with it, all the way to repealing Obamacare and a lot more besides. We will need strong conservative leaders to do that heavy lifting.

  • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir

    Philosophy and tactics aside, Harry Reid and his band of jackinapes can do so much damage in 2 years that it won’t really matter after that.

    It’s just as responsible as parents letting their 14 year old use crack on the theory that “sooner or later he/she’s got to learn some responsibility.”

  • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil_truth

    You’ve certainly made arguments for ending the filibuster, and others have good arguments for preserving it. My historical reflections lead me to the latter position. Expediency, however, should never be deciding grounds.

    However, this debate needs deliberation and should there be enough support, the change should occur at least two or three cycles out to prevent gaming by the current majority.

    Especially when the rules change attempt comes so transparently after the Democrats have lost their 60 votes.

    That is, losing the filibuster this Congress with Obama as president and a hyperpartisan Democratic majority would lose the war regardless of whether we might win a skirmish in the 113th.

    More later.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    given the liberal status quo welfare state enacted with filibuster rules in place; the ability to use the filibuster to maintain the debt-increasing status quo for decades; and the way the filibuster has been used to block the ability of Americans to utilize their own natural resource of oil for fundamental necessities like energy and transportation, I think the balance of the argument is against the filibuster as a constructive tool of the legislature.

    Given all the bad legislation since the 1930s forward, its hard for me to accept an argument for the filibuster that things could have been worse.

    We are conservative nation and have been most of its history and esp since beginning in the late 60s and early 70s and yet, the best conservatives have been able to do against Big Government has been a status quo under Reagan and Newt.

    The center-right majority of the voters deserve a government that enacts conservative laws. The filibuster has been a major reason that the Reagan and New t revolutions weren’t revolutions after all.

    But I acknowledge there are good arguments opposed to my view, including those made by a Persistent Cuss!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    The liberal welfare state legislation of the 30s and 60s has been cemented in place via the filibuster as has the restriction of oil drilling rights.

    more later

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the Dem minority generally for th last 30 as the last bastion against oil drilling expansion with the filibuster in place.

    The Dems and libs win by maintaining the status quo via the filibuster.

    For conservatives to fix the nation via repeals and positive enactments, the filibuster is a barrier we probably could not overcome for many years if ever.

  • Spiral

    The filibuster didn’t stop Obama-care. The filibuster didn’t stop Social Security. The filibuster didn’t stop Medicare. The filibuster didn’t stop Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

    All of the bad government policies that have negatively impacted the United States of America over these past 80 years were not stopped by the filibuster.

    However, we do know that drilling in the Artic National Wildlife Refuge was stopped by the filibuster. We do know that tort reform was stopped by the filibuster (and the trial lawyer supported Democrats in the Senate). We do know that Miguel Estrata is not on the Washingont DC circuirt court of appeals because of the filibuster.

    We also know that if the filibuster is not changed it will be very difficult to get any conservatives on the US federal courts of appeals and the US Supreme Court.

    The only reason why Roberts and Alito got confirmed to the US Supreme Court was because the Democrats thought that if they filibustered either of those two nominees, the GOP Senate Majority might use the Constitutional Option.

    Read my latest diary to learn about the Constitutional Option.

    The US is going bankrupt. The filibuster has not prevented the US’s downward slide. The filibuster is not in the US Constitution. The filibuster goes against the standard that legislative bodies operate by majority rule.

    Get rid of the filibuster.

  • JSobieski

    removing the fillibuster and don’t seem concerned with the procedural damage to the rule of law that would be required to implement the change.

    I agree with you that with respect to at least rolling back Obamacare and for reforming entitlements, killing the fillibuster is a good thing.

    I am not comfortable with underlying legal “analysis” that is required to do the job.

    I say that even though I am convinced that cloiture requirements are unconstitional with respect to Article II powers.

  • Spiral

    I would rather the filiubster remain in place until the GOP wins back the US Senate (hopefully by 2013 as a result of the 2012 elections) and then, on the first day of the new GOP Senate majority have the filibuster thrown into the dustbin of history.

    Gamecock is absolutely right on some many levels here.

    First, the filibuster has not prevented American’s slide into socialism.

    Second, since it is very difficult for either political party to win 60 US Senate seats (the GOP has never had 60 US Senate seats), we have to ask ourselves, is the status quo acceptable? I put forth that question because if the status quo were acceptable, retaining the filibuster would make some sense. But if the status quo is a steady but still rapid drift into Greek-like bankruptcy, we must make it possible for a majority of the American people to elect a GOP US House, US Senate and President and allow those people to turn this country around.

    A requirement of 60 in the Senate guarantees that this country will not</b be turned around. Instead, it will continue the creeping socialism of the last 80 years.

  • pilgrim

    They also would have stopped the community reinvestment act and a lot of horrible laws that became law since 1975. Nothing is perfect and will stop all bad things from happening, but ending filibuster is a step in the wrong direction. If you choose efficiency over gridlock then go live in North Korea or Iran. They do not have any gridlock.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    said so in my diary, when I suggested that Republicans should hold Dems accountable as unfair rules breakers if they do this via majority vote given the existing rule on rules changes. I called for enough Republicans to vote for the change so we reach the 2/3 rule change threshold.

    I also called for changing the 2/3 rule change rule by 2/3 vote and lower it to majority or a lower super majority going forward. I actually favor the right of a majority of the Senate to make rules by simple majority at the beginning of each new Congress.

    So its not correct to say that I am unconcerned with the damage to the rule of law.

    But my utilitarian concern is due to the way a minority has ruled this nation into national suicide re energy resources and currency and economy destroying debt.

    Yes, please feel free to convict me for the utilitarian concern to save my country and at the same time violate no great principle of the Framers since the filibuster is not required by the Constitution.

    more later

    good debate

  • JSobieski

    That is an argument nobody is making because it would be extremely weak argument.

    Enjoy your Saturday. Maybe we should talk on Monday and argue it out live?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    subject matter under which you “reply to this”! ie Rules change.

    And yes, some Senators and others at RS have argued that it is unconstitutional for the Senate to break their own rules.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    expansions of areas for oil exploration and major revisions to the CRA/Fannie/Freddie that Bush and McCain pushed before the housing crisis.

  • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

    recitation appears to be spot on. The Senate does have the power to make their own rules. That’s clear. And the Senate will have a tough time enacting any legislation thru THAT ALSO requires a House vote.
    As Krauthammer said, they’ll rue the day if the GOP should be able to win the Senate back in 2012.

    By my God, the things they can do that only requires a senate vote..from judges (for life) to who knows what. I suspect it is part of a larger strategy, so look for a second shoe to drop if they do change the rules.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    when we had majorities, we would have gotten more credit for the good results and would have been more likely to have prevented Democrat majorities from being elected.

    The fact is that liberals use the filibuster to cement the status quo welfare state and big government.

    And one aspect of not having the filibuster would be that should the Dems overreach with bad legislation, they will be held accountable. See Nov 2010 election day.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    persuaded that the filibuster does more harm than good, by far, in my opinion, especially since even if the Libs passed more bad stuff when they have power, they will be held accountable for the inevitably bad results, after which our majorities can correct them.

    Rather than the current circumstance that prevents the GOP from delivering on our promises and so we end up being grouped in with Dems as being part of the problem with not a dimes worth of difference.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    not allow a minority to stop any judge they desire to take the bench.

  • JSobieski

    Look back to the time periods from 1976-1980 and 1992-1994 as well.

    Obamacare would be even worse if there had been no fillibuster obstacle. A public option would have made all of these court challenges moot, since there wouldn’t need to be an individual mandate—the individual mandate is a direct result of the absence of a public option.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    bad legislation can be immediately corrected?

  • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil_truth

    I think that Reid/Obama in the next two years can plant the seeds of destruction to our Republic that we will not have time to dig out later on, through actions that don’t involve the House.

    When the Ship of State no longer has its left gunwale under water in a gale, we can decide on whether to cast the ballast overboard. Before then, disaster.

  • Spiral

    Yes. Absent the filibuster, we might be able to save this country.

    However, as long as 60 votes are required to end debate on nominees for the US Supreme Court, nominees for the federal courts of appeals and on legislation (including, but not limited to, the repeal of Obama-care), this country probably can not be saved.

    Therefore, if you want the next GOP Congress and GOP President to be able to turn this country around, you should support the elimination of the 60 vote requirement to end debate in the Senate.

    If you want Senators like Barbara Boxer and Chuck Schumer to be able to block the confirmation of conservative judicial nominees via the filibuster, if you want Senators like Dick Durbin and Bernie Sanders to be able to block the repeal of Obama-care via the filibuster, if you want Senators like John Kerry and Carl Levin to be able to prevent the enactment of tort reform, then, by all means continue to support the 60 vote requirement in the Senate for the ending of debate.

    The result will be endless debate as America continues its decline into a Greek-like bankrupt country.

  • Common_Cents

    One thing I admire about the left is they go gung ho when elected majority, they won! It is their privilege to do what they want because the people spoke.

    REPS once elected generally fall all over themselves to talk about bipartisanship. WTH?

    Therefore, until REPS show me that they have a pair and a spine I’ll have to stand pat.

    What’s to prevent a sufficient majority REP congress to vote to end a fillibuster during their reign and vote it back in during a lame duck period?

  • pilgrim

    I still think somewhere in between unanimous consent and simple majority rule is a better place for the US Senate to be. The better laws passed by the Senate are with 67 or more yes votes. This is not always possible, but I think it is something worth trying to do it this way.

  • Spiral

    But how many liberal judicial nominees were filibustered by Republicans during the Clinton and Obama administrations?

    We know that Miguel Estrata was prevented from being confirmed to the Washinton DC circuit court of appeals when the Democrats held only a minority of seats in the US Senate due to the filibuster. There were several cloture votes on Estrata’s nomination. All failed to obtain 60 votes for cloture. Eventually Estrata withdrew his nomination and went to work as an attorney outside of government. I believe a female conservative nominee named Kuhl withdrew her nomination after several failed cloture votes.

    However I can not think of a single liberal judicial nominee who had to withraw under circumstances similar to that of Estrata or Kuhl.

    So, one of the reasons that I support the elimination of the filibuster (although not the only one for sure) is that the Democrats are much more effective at using the filibuster to advance the Socialist cause than the GOP is at advancing the conservative cause.

    When the Democrats are in the minority they use the filibuster to prevent conservatives from getting on the federal courts. Only moderates need apply. Estrata and Kuhl are examples of this. (The only reason why some conservatives got confirmed is because some Senate Republicans threatened to use the Senate’s Constitutional Option of changing senate rules.)

    When the Democrats are in the majority they do not let the filibuster get in their way. That’s why Sonya Sotomeyer did not get filibustered. That’s why Obama-care became the law of the land after Scott Brown’s election to the Senate.

    Junk the filibuster.

  • JSobieski

    Nothing makes a contrarian less contrarian than being called a contrarian. I think GC is pretty effective in the use of reverse psychology.

    More importantly, diaries that references the “political question” doctrine are worth reading. Anything that gets us out of a mode of courts deciding everything is a good thing in my view.

  • pilgrim

    Let’s say that there is no filibuster rule, and Justices Kennedy and Scalia both have a heart attack and die. Obama nominates Bill Ayres and Van Jones for the two seats on the Supreme Court and a simple majority in the US Senate approve the two nominees. How is this immediately corrected? It is NOT immediately corrected.

  • JSobieski

    and the Senate Bill passed before Brown was elected.

  • JSobieski

    in fact, I don’t recall any judicial nominees being fillibustered.

    So I don’t see your scenario as persuasive.

  • Spiral

    Exactly.

    That’s why the filibuster benefits Socialism. The Democrats are willing to use the filibuster to prevent conservatives from being on the federal courts. The Republicans are unwilling to use the filibuster to prevent liberals from being on the federal courts.

    Get rid of the filibuster and the playing field for liberal and conservative nominees to the federal courts is a level playing field. Currently, the filibuster and the differential willingess of the Democrat and Republican parties to use it result in making it easier for a liberal to get on the federal courts than it is for a conservative to get on the fedeal courts.

    If we keep the filibuster in place we can someday look foward to a situation where the federal courts make tax cuts and the repeal of Obama-care unconstitutional.

    The filibuster benefits the cause of Socialism, not conservatism.

  • pilgrim

    Republicans filibustered LBJ’s SC nominees successfully.

  • redneck_hippie

    If the democrats ever regain majority in both houses, G_d forbid, then I’ll reconsider.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    in the late 70s and the past 2 years, they get spanked at the polls. Then the GOp majorities come in but can’t fix what was passed as it gets protected by the filibuster.

    I don;t fear bad legislation from temporary lib majorities when we can correct them via majority vote.

  • ladyimpactohio

    ending the filibuster I believe would be disaster for conservative legislation.

  • redneck_hippie

    Said that backwards.

    If the Rs regain filibuster proof majority in the senate and a majority in the house, then I’ll reconsider.

  • http://vladenblog.tumblr.com Vladimir

    Vetting presidential nominees?

    Do you really want Son of Kyoto?

  • Spiral

    Yes. But the filibuster did not prevent Obama-care from becoming law.

    In January 2009 misguided conservatives were talking about how the filibuster is an important check on majority rule and how effective use of the filibuster could save the country.

    This was always very unpersuasive. After all, during the time when the GOP had majorities in both the US House and the US Senate and there as a GOP President, the filibuster prevented the regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. However, when the financial crisis hit in 2008, the filibuster did not prevent TARP from passing the Senate.

    This is the typical “head the liberals win, tails the conservatives lose” situation we get under the filiubster.

    But in early 2009 Congress passed the Obama-Pelosi-Reid stimulus boondoggle. The filibuster did not stop it from becoming law. The filibuster did not stop Sonja Sotomeyer or Elena Kagen from getting on to the US Supreme Court. The filibuster did not prevent Obama-care from becoming law.

    But the filibuster has prevented drilling in the National Wildlife Refuge, did prevent Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl and other conservatives from being confirmed to the federal court of appeals.

    If some Republicans had not threatened the use of the Constitutional Option in 2005-2006, neither Roberts nor Alito would have been confirmed to the US Supreme Court.

    The filibuster is bad for America. It’s about time conservatives woke up and demanded its elimination.

    How far down the rat hole does America has to descend before conservatives wake up and realize the damage the filibuster has done to America?

  • JSobieski

    I guess I put that in a separate category, since the fillibuster didn’t impact whether a particular person would sit on the court.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    we would most surely have repealed HillaryCare.

  • pilgrim
  • JSobieski

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abe_Fortas

    If you are aware of additional example, feel free to “expand” my knowledge.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    with respect to the current move to change the rules; how they are being changed and what rule for filibusters, if any, you support.

    My cynical view is that since the filibuster has clearly been a huge net negative for conservatives, that we should welcome the Dems as being the vile agent to break the rules to rid ourselves of it! smile

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    70 years and that conservatives have never and will never have the 60 votes to repeal and save the nation.

    Your filibuster is what protects the liberal seeds.

  • Spiral

    It was Republicans and Democrats that filibustered a single LBJ Supreme Court nominee in 1968, as LBJ was leaving office as a lame duck.

    And it really wasn’t Republicans, it was a bi-partisan group of Republicans and Democrats that won a single cloture vote. It was not a sustained filiubster similar to the one that the Democrats engaged in back in the 2003-2004 Senate, when they defeated or delayed the confirmation of 10 conservative nominees to the US court of appeals.

    And the fact that we have to go back to 1968 to find one example and one failed cloture vote shows that the Republicans will never filibuster a liberal nominee to the US Supreme Court.

    The GOP did not filibuster Ruth Bader Ginsberg even though she was the ACLU’s General Council and supported co-ed prisons and lowering the age of sexual consent to age 12. The GOP did not filibuster Stephen Breyer. The GOP did not filibuster Sonja Sotomeyer. The GOP did not filibuster Elena Kagen.

    The Democrats wanted to filibuster John Roberts and Samuel Alito. But many Repubilcans let it be known that if the Democrats did filibuster Roberts or Alito, they would use the Constitutional Option to bypass or change the filibuster.

    The bottom line is that the filibuster has hurt America. It has prevented good conservatives from taking their rightful place on the US court of appeals. It has prevented drilling in the National Artic Wildlife Reserve. It has prevented tort reform. It did prevent reform of Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, leading to a huge recession and huge federal liabilities.

    Junk the filibuster.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    since the President gets to nominate, no matter if we defeat a judge, his next nominee will vote the same on cases, so thats all politics. There truly is not a dimes worth of difference on judges. They are either good or bad and from Obama, they will be bad.

  • pilgrim
  • redneck_hippie

    If Reid could pass with simple majorities, I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night. I’ll leave the lawyerly arguments to you and JS, et al.

  • JSobieski

    His nomination was clearly part of the Warren-Fortas transaction, but I can’t find a link that says Thornberry was filibustered.

    http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Filibuster_Derails_Supreme_Court_Appointment.htm

    Are you aware of any post-LBJ Republican fillibuster efforts?

    The Fortas fillibuster wasn’t limited to Republicans.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    they get to enact their laws with 51 votes and we never get the 60 to repeal them. Hence, the slouching towards Gommorah since the New Deal. And even when we have Reagan and Newt and tea party revolutions nothing ever REVERSES the slouching and never will with a filibuster protection for the libs.

  • cwilson

    The filibuster was bi-partisan, NOT Republican-only. It was enacted basically to cover LBJ’s *ss and give him time to withdraw the nomination — once Abe Fortas’ corruption came to light. And it lasted four days. The Dem filibusters during W’s administration were open-ended, and lasted for years.

  • Spiral

    I take just the opposite view.

    The filibuster has been proven useless in terms of preventing the confirmation of liberals to the US Supreme Court and the US Court of Appeals.

    I will list the people who should have been filibustered by the GOP.

    Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Stephen Breyer, Sonja Sotomeyer, Elena Kagen.

    Notice that the GOP did not filibuster any of them. Some Republicans even voted for thsoe liberals.

    But the Democrats did, in the 2003-2004 Senate, filibuster 10 conservative judicial nominees for the US court of appeals. Can you think of any liberals who failed to make it do to the federal court of appeals due to a minority filibuster? I can’t.

    Junk the filibuster. It has hurt America badly. Endless debate while American descends into Greek-like bankruptcy.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    whom “deserved” to be, if far left judges is what we fear…and we should fear them.. Maybe if it was made clear via a Constitutional Amendment that judges require 60 votes…see the problem? Maybe a good argument could be made for the filibuster remaining a rule JUST for judges given their lifetime appt, actually. We should pursue that argument.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    from even getting votes due to false allegations of racism. They would have been great justices that would never have let Roe be made law.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    unassailable logic!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Spiral

    Yes. But in the 2003-2004 Senate, the Democrat minority filibusterd 10 conservative judicial nominees. These include Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl.

    In 2004 the GOP gained a net of 4 US Senate seats, resulting in a 55 to 45 seat majority.

    In January 2005, Arlen Specter believing that he would ascend to the chair of the Senate judiciary committee, warned newly re-elected President Bush to nominate a pro-Roe v Wade judicial nominee for any US Supreme Court vacancy because of…….. the filibuster rule. Specter believed that the Democrat senate minority would filibuster any conservative nominee to the US Supreme Court.

    Other Senate Republicans criticized Specter and mentioned that given their increased majority in the Senate, they didn’t have to compromise and accept a pro Roe v Wade judicial nominee for the US Supreme Court. They could use the Constitutional Option to bypass the judicial filibuster threat of the Democrats.

    Some Repubilcans like John McCain and Lindsay Graham said that the Democrats had the right to filibuster judicial nominees. McCain said, on MSNBC’s Hardball with Chris Matthews, that the Bush administration should withdraw the judicial nominations that the Democrat minority objected to.

    Other Republicans didn’t accept the Specter-Graham-McCain argument that the filibuster rule was more important than putting conservatives on the federal courts. They threatened to use the Constitutional Option. Vice President Cheney said that he would rule in favor of those who supported bypassing the filibuster in order to get conservatives on the federal courts.

    Eventually a compromise was reached by the gang of 14. Some conservative judicial nominees would get up or down votes. But other conservative judicial nominees would get sacrificed on the alter of bi-partisanship.

    How many liberal judicial nominees for the federal court of appeals got filibustered under Clinton and Obama?

    None.

    Junk the filibuster.

  • pilgrim

    So far a lot of posters think my suggestion of the filibuster by Republican controlled Senate to LBJ’s supreme court is no good because it was 1968 or because it was short. Those responses fail to convince me that I did not provided in fact an example.

  • JSobieski

    please post it.

    All I see is Fortas, and there is a cogent story that it was done in order to give LBJ time to withdraw his nomination. As I read it, Thornberry’s nomination was purposely made immediately after Fortas and was intended so serve as a sweetener for moderates/conservatives.

    When Fortas was stopped, Warren’s resignation did not take effect, and thus there was no spot for Thornberry to fill. Thornberry wasn’t fillibustered—his process broke down as a result of the fillibuster of Fortas.

    As previously stated, Fortas was already on the SCt. So, the total number of liberals stopped from being seated at the US Supreme Court as a result of a fillibuster is . . .

    ZERO.

    Zero is not a high number. Nothing in the past two years suggests that the zero number will increase.

    The case for removing the fillibuster is strongest in the area of judicial nominees.

  • Common_Cents

    You would be against it because Republicans haven’t used it?

  • http://www.gmsplace.com/ civil_truth

    The reason has been a lack or awareness of their opponents and/or lack of will to assert conservative values. Appeasement is so much more popular – and lucrative. Broad is the way…

  • pilgrim
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Especially during the Bush-lied Era when Repubs continued to refer to Dem Senators as there honorable friends when they should have been punching their lights out in public for unpatriotic emboldening of the enemy.

    I could cite numerous examples of how senators get all indignant over the traditions and rules of the senate than they ever do over the vile substantive position of the liberals and the damage being done to this country while they fiddle over their precious little club.

    I have called for disbanding the Senate at times from 2001-2006. Maybe we should go “Nebraska”. A gold star to the first one that gets the reference.

  • Spiral

    No. However, the 60 vote requirement for ending debate does not simply make the process of repealing bad laws “inefficient.” In some cases it becomes impossible.

    Let’s look ahead to the 2012 elections. It is very possible that a Republican will win the White House in 2012. It is also very possible, given the fact that there will be 23 Democrats up for reelection in the US Senate and only 10 Republicans up for relection in the US Senate, that the GOP could win majority control of the Senate.

    Thus, it’s not far fetched to imagine a situation where there there is a Republican in the White House, a 55 to 45 Republican Senate majority and a 242 to 193 Republican House majority by January 2013.

    With the current 60 vote cloture requirement, 41 of those 45 Senate Democrats can not only make it Minefficient for the GOP to enact its agenda, those 41 could make it impossible.

    Now it is true that not everything is subject to the 60 vote cloture requirement. For example, budget reconciliation bills are not subject to the 60 vote cloture requirement. This is why the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts were enacted. The 1971 budget act provides an exemption from the filibuster rule.

    But that is hardly an argument for retaining the filibuster. After all, how do you put a conservative nomination to the US Supreme Court of the US federal court of appeals into a budget reconciliation bill?

    So, it’s not that the 60 vote cloture requirement to end filibusters by 41 Democrat US Senators makes it marginally more difficult to repeal bad legislation. It’s not that the 60 vote cloture requirement makes it significantly more difficult. The 60 vote cloture requirement makes it impossible to repeal bad legislation unless one of two things happen:

    (1) The GOP wins 60 US Senate seats.
    (2) The GOP persuades liberals to support the repeal of bad legislation.

    First, let’s take (1). Well, the GOP has never had 60 US Senate seats! Sure, we can hope that the GOP will gain a net of 13 US Senate seats in 2012. But if I were in Las Vegas right now, I wouldn’t bet my house on that happening.

    Let’s take (2). It is possible to get some Democrats to support GOP sponsored legislation. But usually that legislation is either (a) bad legislation or (b) originally good legislation that gets watered down in order to obtain Democrat support. That kind of watering down, compromise is not going to turn this country around.

    I hate to say it but here it is.

    This country can not be turned around as long as 60 votes are required to shut off debate.

    The 60 vote requirement will block conservatives to the federal court of appeals and the US Supreme Court. The 60 vote requirement for cloture will prevent the enactment of good legislation and the repeal of bad legislation.

    You must choose. Either you support the demise of the filibuster or you support the demise of the United States of America.

    It’s your choice.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Moreover, I think the timing of this is great since it lets the Dems be the vile rule-breakers that change a rule without which the liberal welfare state could not have become nor remained so Big. Conservative GOP majorities would have pared back the New Deal, Great Society etc but for the filibuster.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    pure or less pure direct or indirect democracy, when you add the filibuster to the mix, one kind of change is made much more hard, and that is to correct bad legislation.

    Remember, the Bill of Rights exists to protect minorities in speech, etc, ie the bulwark against the fear of simple majority rule. In other words, we already require 2/3 of the states and 3/4 of the congress to change any fundamental rights.

    The filibuster elevates mere legislation to near constitutional status.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Remember, the Bill of Rights exists to protect minorities in speech, etc, ie the bulwark against the fear of simple majority rule. In other words, we already require 2/3 of the states and 3/4 of the congress to change any fundamental rights.

  • Spiral

    Think back to the “middle years” of the Bush administration.

    In the 2002 elections, the GOP won a net gain of 2 US Senate seats to regain the Senate majority that they lost when Jim Jeffords switched from being a Republican (in name only) to an indepdent who would caucus with the Democrats.

    In January 2003 many conservatives looked foward to seeing the 51 to 49 Republican Senate majority confirming the conservative judicial nominees that were not given a vote when the Democrats controlled the Senate. That’s when the Democrats initiated their judicial filibuster strategy.

    10 conservative judicial nominees were unable to get a confirmation vote during the 2003-2004 Senate even though the GOP held a 51-49 seat majority. This was because minority leader Tom Daschle and the liberal interest groups were able to convince most of his fellow Democrat Senators to filibuster.

    The 2004 elections resulted in the re-election of Bush and a net gain of an additional 4 US Senate seats for the GOP. Looking ahead to possible retirements by William Renquist and Sandra Day O’Conner, Arlen Specter, said, anticipating that he would become chairman of the Senate judiciary committee, that Bush should only appoint a pro Roe v Wade nominee to the US Supreme Court because the Democrats would filibuster any conservative nominee.

    Other Republicans spoke of using the Constitutional Option to bypass the Democrats’ filibustering strategy.

    In the midst of this controversy, John McCain appeared on MSNBC’s Hardball with Chris Matthews. McCain said that Bush should simply withdraw the nominations of those judicial nominees deemed unacceptable by the Democrats. McCain also stated that he would oppose the Republicans and vote with the Democrats on the issue of the Constitution Option.

    So, you are correct. People like McCain care more about being on good terms with Democrats and the tradition of the filibuster (even when judicial filibusters were a new creation of Daschle) than they care about the fate of the country.

    Junk the filibuster so that the country can be saved.

  • pilgrim

    I suspect upon further reflection you might think there are certainly some factors that are more important and that efficiency will not trump.

  • Spiral

    It’s not about efficiency.

    It’s about possibility.

    It’s not that the filibuster makes it less efficient to turn the country around.

    I simply do not believe that it is possible to turn the country around as long as we have to get a handful of Democrats in the Senate to support the GOP agenda.

    You know what that is going to result in. It means the GOP agenda will be significantly watered down in order to get the 60 votes. Conservative nominees will not be confirmed to the federal courts (unless the GOP does what it did in 2005 which is threaten the use of the Constitutional Option, an end run around the filibuster).

    I don’t understand why conservatives are so wedded to the filibuster. It has not prevented the Socialization of the US.

  • Spiral

    This is an excellent point.

    Now, if the status quo was good for the country, this high hurdle for the enactment of new legislation or the repeal of bad legislation might be positive for the country.

    But for the last 80 years the United States has been sometimes drifting, sometimes lurching, towards socialism and the bankruptcy that goes along with socialism. The filibuster has not prevent this national drift.

    Today, the filibuster makes it nearly impossible to reverse America’s drift toward the socialist iceberg. We have to get the support of Democrats so that we can reach the 60 vote threshold in order to enact conservative legislation.

    There is little to no likelihood of this happening.

    Thus, you are correct. The near constitutional status of all of the bad legislation that has accumulated over the years makes forces us to choose between the filibuster and the health of the US.

  • pilgrim

    Although Hitler won the office of German chancellor in legal fashion (the Nazis, after all, were the largest group in the Reichstag or lower house of parliament)), he was, of course, determined to rule Germany without the restraint of a democratically elected parliament. For this to happen he had to set aside the guarantees of civil rights and democratic procedures established by the Weimar Constitution, a tactic that required the approval of two-thirds of sitting representatives. This was achieved by calling a new election (which increased the Nazi vote) and using force and intimidation against the existing parties, especially those of the Socialists and Communists, many of whose elected representatives were jailed as political enemies or forced to flee the country. Once assured of the votes of the Catholic Center party, the two-thirds majority was assured. Thus, over the unavailing opposition of Socialist deputies, the March 24 session gave Hitler approval of legislation enabling him to exercise dictatorial rule for four years, leaving the Nazis free to suborn Germany’s hitherto free institutions and subordinate both state and people to the ideological demands of the new regime. Of course the compliant Reichsrat (upper house) followed suit. Inevitably, the Act was renewed in 1937 and persisted until the collapse of Germany in 1945.
    The official name of the Enabling legislation was “Law for the Removal of the Distress of People and Reich.”

  • ohiohistorian

    then the debate continued. http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Filibuster_Cloture.htm Similar rules were in the House until it got too big.

    Why do you guys want to convert our republic, where the minority gets heard, to a democracy? Again, you guys are taken by the lieberal history. The filibuster was a way to assure that an item was fully debated. Until 1917 (does the year sound familiar) that is the way it went. Then they put in Rule 22 which allowed CLOTURE to debate. So the lieberals were the ones who, like they do today, tried to restrict debate, then try to make this thing look like some “Constitutional” construct.

    It was simply a way to assure that the minority had their say. No more, no less.

    Do you think the voice of the minority should be squelched in the Senate like it was in the House for the last four years? Then vote your rights away, mateys.

    Didn’t you guys learn anything from reading about the Founders? They FEARED democracy. They saw what happened in Greece and again in Rome. They STUDIED history. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1925583/posts

  • http://thesandsinstitute.org Vassar Bushmills

    …even as I disagree. Some of the best commentary I’ve seen in ages on RS. You’ve stewarded all the best that RedState is supposed to stand for.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    really thought about the filibuster in much detail before this issue arose a week ago and I started to write a column 3 times, but continued to think it out before writing today.

    still thinking…

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    than the filibuster. Come on man. There are all kinds of checks and balances, not to mention out culture from 1776-today and just as applicable in the 20s and 30s and the 2000s.

    Remember, the Constitution requires 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states to repeal the First Amendment. We shouldn’t have regular legislation nearly on par with constitutional rights.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    There voice gets heard in elections and in debate before bills, and the minority is protected in the Bill of Rights, which will still require 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states to repeal!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • ohiohistorian

    The filibuster history should be learned. It is NOT a “Constitutional” issue at all, but a Republic issue. See my posting http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/01/08/conservatives-should-welcome-end-to-filibusters/#comment-9426

    Second, there is a comment here somewhere that Republicans have not filibustered a judge for 40 years. It didn’t happen that way then either. While Republicans led the filibuster, they did not have enough Republicans to block Fortas. The cloture failed by 45/43, but there were only about 40 Republicans in the Senate then. They got help from the Democrats. http://hnn.us/articles/11753.html And the reference is written by a John Dean who claimed to be there.

    Please stop the hallowed “Constitutional” nonsense on the filibuster. It is a mode of continued debate, and debate should NOT be cut off. I believe that Rule 22, in 1917, was wrong, and should be repealed, not modified again. But it also should be debate, not the threat of debate, that stops legislation.

  • David123

    :-)

  • ohiohistorian

    if I remember the article, so it actually precedes the Founders. It is the way that meetings were run, so that all there were heard. The problem is Rule 22, which shuts off debate, not the filibuster. My attitude is “filibuster away”.

    I like how you thought out the article, Mike, but I really think you went the wrong way as I have said. It is a Republic vs. Democracy issue, NOT a “Constitutional” issue. And what is being done is another try to silence the minority by allowing a single political party, which has the majority, to silence debate.

  • renny

    and should be allowed to continue to do so, even if they do not appeal to the instant gratification watcher of C-Span.

  • ohiohistorian

    In the House, where the majority could force a piece of legislation to not be allowed to be amended, and where it took recognition of the chair and other arcane rules like the 60 second rule for voicing objections, debate WAS cut off. Debate on health care should have been protracted, but was not because the minority was stifled.

  • JSobieski

    Or conversely, saying that removal of the filibuster would violate the Constitution?

    99% of the argument that I see on this point is (1) whether a fillibuster helps conservatives and (2) the impact of Senate Rules V and XXII.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    are without merit. Stewart’s character was 1 vs 99. But your “republic” argument essentially states that absent the filibuster, we cease to be a Republic and thus become a “democracy”. That is ridiculous given all the attributes that defined a republic before the Framers created one sans the filibuster!

    The possibility of never cutting off debate never has and does not define a Republic.

  • ohiohistorian

    Too bad the minority protections in the House disappeared for 4 years. Will be interesting to see how and if they are restored. I believe that the Democrats should live for the rest of 2011-12 with the rules of Pelosi shoved down THEIR throats, and told that FAIR is what Nancy did to the Republicans.

    You cannot find civility with a liberal/progressive/SoComm. His approach is that he should WIN, not that the best approach for the nation should be discerned.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    protected by the Bill of Rights and many other parts of the Constitution. The minority in the senate is not a protected class.

  • pilgrim

    Like my example shows an enabling amendment to the US Constitution that would streamline and remove the super majority requirements that are currently in place only has to be passed one time. You seem to be set in your view that these super majority rules the US Senate operates under should be removed, and I am glad you do not extend that argument to constitutional amendments.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I think many are conflating the constitutional protections afforded the minority in the Bill of Rights that do require super majorities in states and Congress to be repealed, with the need to somehow protect the minority losers in the Senate.

    They are protected. They retain their free speech and the next election within which to protect themselves coming up in 2-6 years!

  • JSobieski

    Floor time, amendments, who gets what allotment of time, etc.

    People need to remember that it used to be possible to filibuster in the House as well, and the Republic survived that.

    I don’t see how anyone can argue that the filibuster is necessary for a Republica or how removing it is unconstitutional.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    serves as more of a tool for the former than does it absence serve as a tool for the latter.

    No majority could become tyrannical in the US given the Bill of Rights and elections every 2-6 years. The filibuster has institutionalized tyranny by a minority since the 1930s.

  • JSobieski

    regardless of whether there is a filibuster or not.

    Surely a change in a Senate rule is not enough of change as to result in de facto democracy. There is a lot of space between removal of the filibuster and democracy, and that slope isn’t particularly slippery.

  • ohiohistorian

    Ever hear of Woodrow Wilson? Start on page 3 of the reference.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2008/0205/p09s01-coop.html
    Every inch a conservative gives is a death knell to this Republic. If you want to live in a democracy, go vote for the approaches, such as the Colorado constitutional amendment, that the Electoral College reps have to vote with the US MAJORITY, not with the Colorado majority. This is how liberals are looking to modify our Republic.

    I, along with the Founders, FEAR a democracy.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    The “minority” in this nation has basic constitutional rights and the right to challenge majority member office holders. The losers of election need not be protected from losing on the issues outside repeal of the minority protections of all citizens.

    We debate issues in elections and the reps go to two different houses and the white house. And those that win should be able to govern, and if there policies fail and the people vote in the other side, they should be able to reverse the nation’s course.

    This is not pure democracy by a long shot, otherwise the Founders would not be revered for rejecting democracy in favor of a republic, which did not enshrine the filibuster.

    The filibuster subverts self government by making laws the equivalent of a constitutional amendment.

    Thanks for the debate and, yes, I really did take a week of thinking this thru before writing this column and tried to anticipate all arguments. And I didn’t come to this matter favoring ending the filibuster. My research and analysis led me to this conclusion for the first time in my life.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • ohiohistorian

    Not mine, however.

    It does no good to have a Republic if you do not let the minority be heard. That is what a FILIBUSTER does.

    Want to see what happens in a progressive “democracy” when you let the majority have its way? Start with Page 3 of http://www.lawanddemocracy.org/amend36.html and then go to

    where it tells about Wilson, that grandfatherly old guy that just wanted us in the League of Nations. Here is a commentary about Harding from one of his biographers. Just to refresh you, the Sedition Act was passed in a bout of patriotic fervor and a “we must act now” sort of like our current TARP, Stimulus, and Health Care legislation experienced.
    http://thehardingaffair.com/blog/
    As Senator, Harding courageously stood against Woodrow Wilson?s call for America to go to war to ?make the world safe for democracy,? though he did vote for war. In a lesson America never learned, Harding warned that it is not the business of the United States to engage in regime change through the violence of war.

    During his presidency, Harding pardoned Socialist Eugene Debs, who was rotting in an Atlanta prison, sent there by the Wilson Administration for violating the Espionage and Sedition Act.

    Debs? crime? He spoke out against the war?that is, he exercised his right of free speech. Wilson denied a pardon even after the war ended. Harding granted it.

    Good luck on your love of democracy and claim that the minority has enough of a voice.

  • ohiohistorian

    You must read about Woodrow Wilson and the Sedition Act, which was one of those laws passed in the fervor of the war.

    Did you read how cloture originally came about?

    http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Cloture_Rule.htm

  • JSobieski

    A representative Republic means we get to elect someone who gets a vote in the legislature. Like any form of government of flawed human beings, a Republic can go off the tracks. However, the presence or absence of a filibuster is hardly critical to keeping a Republic.
    It doesn’t mean they get a chairmanship.

    It doesn’t mean they are successful in getting amendments added.

    It doesn’t mean they prevail.

    Those things are simply outside the definition of a Representative Republic.

  • AceInTX

    Did I read you wrong…or maybe I’m missing something…I thought the filibuster dates back to our founding…

    As I recall…the problem lies in an agreement made in 1975 that a member taking the floor and not yielding it back was no longer necessary to continue the filibuster…since 1975 or so…all that is required for a filibuster is for a threat to be made…to filibuster triggering the 6o vote requirement for cloture.

    second…this is small…or potentially a big deal…I don’t know…

    yes we are a center right country…and yes conservatives far outweigh liberals in in the self identified category…but the problem is…since Senators are selected by popular state wide vote …the Senate tends to be far more centrist/center left over all for some reason…hopefully that will change with time…who can tell

    which leads me to a point which is a big deal…thank GOD we had the filibuster since 2006 or GOD knows the havoc Obama could have wreaked over the last 2 + years…

    and GOD forbid it if we ever need it again to stop a crazy liberal Press ala Carter/Obama and it not be available.

    for me…I think the filibuster should stay…but it should go back to what it was…Bernie Sanders showed us how to do it tying up the Senate for nine hours with a real filibuster…not a paper threat like we’ve been dealing with.

    Let’s make our Senators earn their pay…make them work…no more unanimous consent to pass laws as was done on the food safety bill…and no more phony baloney filibusters…if you can’t be bothered to vote Yay or Nay on a bill…then you shouldn’t be there…and if you can’t drag your sorry but to the floor to do a real filibuster instead of these paper games…you shouldn’t be there either.

    I think we might benefit long term if the filibuster were gone, (assuming demographically that we’re more likely to have Republican Senates for the foreseeable future…but I’m not sure that’s the case.

    the main thing is right now…we need to let the Dems know…they’re looking at defending a net 20 to 30 seats next cycle…most of the freshmen in purple to red states…kill the filibuster…and they’ll rue the day because two years from now…we’ll be in control…and they’ll not be able to stop anything we want!

    makes my mouth water thinking about that…heh

  • AceInTX

    heh

  • AceInTX

    the Dems get rewarded for the stonewalling of Bush nominees…since they were able to keep all those seats open…add to that the number of vacancies post Bush and the Obama Ried cabal get to fill ALL those seats without the ability of the Republicans to do ANYTHING about it.

    I think this is all a strategy for the dems…they know they’re gonna be down and out for a while….so…they break the dame over judicial nominees…put a bunch in place at all levels including appeals court level…and they have the courts to defend all their gains of the last5 four years since all these new judges will be there for 20? 30? 40 years?

    You may be right that the filibuster needs to go…but I would say…WHEN it gores and WHO does away with itis a pretty big deal

  • pilgrim

    Some here have posted with the implication that nothing has been stopped from becoming law even with the filibuster in place, and the filibuster is used to keep anything from being undone. As you have pointed out there are many things like the Dream Act that did not become law. Things like healthcare were passed after being blocked for the last 60 years by the filibuster. There have also been bad laws like the 1935 Wagner Act that was neutered by the 1947 Taft-Hartley Act. The argument that the US Senate can not end the filibuster is weak. They can end it. The bad laws that have been blocked or at least delayed is a strong argument for why conservatives should not welcome the end of the filibuster.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    later

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    of those laws that have been prevented by the filibuster and an estimate of what bad laws would have not been repealed despite the filibuster plus an analysis of what laws could have been repealed absent the filibuster.

    Operationally, the filibuster gives an advantage to laws that have been passed. Whereas in the absence of the filibuster, laws that get passed with 51 that could not have been passed with 60 can be repealed more easily once the public sees the error.

    With the filibuster, even our best wave elections rarely ever reverse any previously passed major legislation.

    I think the only reversals include welfare reform and then the Obama stimulus re-reversal of same.

    Yes, the filibuster can stop bad legislation, but it also protects legislation that is later seen to be bad.

    The weighing of these factors over history should settle the matter, rather than abstract arguments, given the large sample.

    Given that analysis, I don;t deny that it could very well be that Americans have already been too liberal for so long, that maybe we wouldn’t have repealed as much as I would have hoped to outweigh what bad could be done under the filibuster.

    still thinking, but for now still lean to eliminating the filibuster or reducing its number

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • AceInTX

    as one example…the filibuster slowed it down and allowed momentum to build against it…

    as it is…it almost didn’t pass this year…because it was slowed long enough for momentum to build against it..and the Dems fell on their swords anyway and passed it…

    without the filibuster…it could be argued…the momentum that built against it would never have built…Obamacare would have been passed without a fight…or opposition being able to gain traction….voters wouldn’t have been pissed about the blatant disregard they were confronted with …and Nov second would never have happened

    I really am torn on this…if Republicans regain power…it would be nice if they didn’t have to deal with the Dems blocking repeal…but that’s a mixed blessing because Repubs won’t have a majority forever assuming we get it back next time out.but I like the cooling saucer analogy…was i Hamilton who described the Senate that way?

  • pilgrim
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I think the only way the filibuster rule gets changed is if the Dems do it in violation of their own rules which makes it a two-fer for me. We can reap the benefit of the absence of the tool and bash the Dems as rule-breakers that can’t be trusted to be honorable!

    Not worried about evening scores with Dems when the result of the end of the filibuster makes it so much more likely that we can repeal enough of the liberal edifice that we can save the country from ruin before its too late.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    than I did before the debate. Still thinking…

  • Spiral

    Not really.

    The Clinton Health Care plan did not even pass the US House of Representatives. Remember that in 1993-1994, the Democrats held a 257-178 majority in the US House. Yet, the US House, where there is no filibuster rule, was unable to pass the Clinton Health Care plan.

    Also, let’s consider the argument that the filibuster is needed to protect the rights of the minority against majority rule.

    Let’s say that Political Party A has 62 seats in the US Senate and Political Party B has 38 seats in the US Senate. Let’s also say that Political Party A controls the White House and a majority of the US House of Representatives.

    Clearly, Political Party B is a minority party. However, under the current filibuster rules, only 60 votes are required to end debate and dispense with filibusters.

    Therefore, in this hypothetical situation, the filibuster does not protect the minority, since Political Party A would have enough votes to invoke cloture under Rule 22 of the US Senate and end any filibuster attempted by Political Party B’s 38 members. Also, since Political Party A has the majority in the US House of Representatives and the White House, Political Party A need not attact any support from Political Party B in order to enact its agenda.

    If one takes seriously the argument that since, in this hypothetical, Political Party A can enact its agenda, the United States is a mob rule democracy, not a Republic. One could use this example to argue for a higher requirement for cloture. Perhaps instead of only 60 votes, 80 votes could be required.

    But even if the cloture requirement under Rule 22 of the US Senate were 80 votes, instead of the current 60 votes, there would still be a possible situation where 80 US Senators attempt to pass legislation opposed by 20 US Senators. Thus, the 20 US Senators, being a minority, could still complain that the rights of the minority were unprotected by this 80 vote cloture requirement.

    Only by raising the cloture vote requirement to 100 percent of the US Senate would we create a system in which the minority is protected in all circumstances. But to do that would mean that the only actions the Congress could take would be those that had a huge, overwhelming consensus.

    Even an Amendment to the US Constitution only requires a 2/3rds vote of both houses (and 3/4ths of the legislatures). It does not require 100 percent support in the Congress.

    So, Gamecock is correct. The issue of whether minority rights are protected under the US Constitution is a separate issue from whether the Senate can close debate on an issue even if a minority of the Senate wants to debate that issue indefinately because they fear they would lose a vote on the issue.

    At this point in American history, the US has already travelled very far down the road of socialism. This journey toward socialism had occurred despite the fact that the filibuster has been available.

    Now we have to figure out how conservatives can reverse the nation’s course. As long as the filibuster remains in place, conservatives will not be able to reverse America’s direction, a direction that ends in bankruptcy.

    Why do I conclude this? Because the GOP has never had 60 or more US Senators in the Senate. And because Democrat US Senators will not support a GOP agenda that is conservative enough to reverse America’s socialist direction.

    This means that as long as the current Senate rules hold, as long as 60 votes are required to close debate on legislation, conservative legislation will be defeated, unless such legislation is watered down to please a handful of liberal Senators, in which case America’s slide towards socialism might be slowed, but not stopped.

    We must choose between the filibuster and the health of the United States. Sort of like how a cigarette smoker must choose between his familiar habit of smoking cigarettes and the health of his or her body. We must choose between familiar Senate rules, rules that have been with us since 1975, and the health of the United States.

    Clearly, conservatives should choose the health of the United States and demand that the GOP not bow to bi-partisanship and respect for tradition, since this would mean that the conservative agenda could be defeated by a minority liberal block in the Senate.

  • Spiral

    which leads me to a point which is a big deal?thank GOD we had the filibuster since 2006 or GOD knows the havoc Obama could have wreaked over the last 2 + years?

    Actually, Obama, Pelosi and Reid have wrecked havoc these past 2 years. Now, we can get into the details of how the they wrecked this havoc and discuss why the filibuster did not protect us from the Obama, Pelosi and Reid wrecking crew. But we must admit, honestly, that the filibuster has not protected America from very harmful, socialist policies.

    for me?I think the filibuster should stay?but it should go back to what it was?Bernie Sanders showed us how to do it tying up the Senate for nine hours with a real filibuster?not a paper threat like we?ve been dealing with.

    Are you saying that if the GOP wins the White House and a majority in the US Senate in the 2012 elections, that Bernie Sanders and handful of other socialist US Senators should be allowed to prevent the GOP Senate from enacting any conservative legislation, including the confirmation of conservatives to the US Supreme Court, including the repeal of Obama-care?

    Just asking. Because if one supports the filibuster, one also supports the right of socialist US Senators to use the filibuster. That means one supports a situation where a conservative majority in the US House, US Senate and White House can have its conservative agenda defeated via endless debate by conducted by Barbara Boxer, Chuck Schumer and Bernie Sanders.

    Why should the US continue its decline into Greek-like socialism and bankruptcy just because people like Boxer, Schumer and Sanders like to hear themselves talk and won’t accept it when conservatives win elections?

    Let?s make our Senators earn their pay?make them work?no more unanimous consent to pass laws as was done on the food safety bill?and no more phony baloney filibusters?if you can?t be bothered to vote Yay or Nay on a bill?then you shouldn?t be there?and if you can?t drag your sorry but to the floor to do a real filibuster instead of these paper games?you shouldn?t be there either.

    We don’t pay Senators to talk indefinately. We pay Senators to participate in the making of public policy. Currently there are reams and reams of bad policy on the federal statues. They must be corrected. They can not be correct via unlimited dialog, unlimited dilatory tactics, endless discussion. If we are going to turn this country around, the Senate (along with the House) must actually vote on legislation designed to reverse America’s socialist drift. That’s why the filibuster is a barrier to correcting America’s course.

    I think we might benefit long term if the filibuster were gone, (assuming demographically that we?re more likely to have Republican Senates for the foreseeable future?but I?m not sure that?s the case.

    Without the filibuster, sometimes the liberals would be able to enact their agenda and sometimes the conservatives would be able to enact their agenda. That’s an improvement over the current situation where the liberals enact their agenda when they are in power but when conservatives are in power all we get to do is hear endless debate about whether the conservative agenda is “unfair to women, minorities, gays, the elderly, the disabled” blah, blah, blah, but nothing changes.

    the main thing is right now?we need to let the Dems know?they?re looking at defending a net 20 to 30 seats next cycle?most of the freshmen in purple to red states?kill the filibuster?and they?ll rue the day because two years from now?we?ll be in control?and they?ll not be able to stop anything we want!

    That’s why I want the filibuster to be eliminated. When January 2013 rolls around, I don’t want just endless talk. I want action. As long as the filibuster is in place, we will not see the action. We will just get more lame excuses about how partisan Bernie Sanders and Barbara Boxer are for filibustering conservative ideas.

  • AceInTX

    I’ll take your word for it that that’s not the case…What I said about Obacare is still valid…

    if Harry Ried could have walked in with the single payer system in the bill or a centralized takeover of the whole system as in Canada and the UK…do you doubt he’d have done it if the filibuster didn’t exist?

    We were able to slow it down…prevent the public option…and allow opposition to build….leading ultimately to the Dems passing it while the American People were screaming NO! Which lead to the outrage that culminated in a net 64 House seat swing in Republican’s favor and a pickup of 6 Senate seats for Republicans in a year that favored Democrats in terms of the seats voted on this cycle.

    I don’t think that would have happened if the Democrats could have passed it’s bill in the House however they wanted it…and Harry Ried had been able to put it on the floor and vote on it within weeks….the opposition to it would have been nil…and we’d be under a single payer system right now!

  • AceInTX

    However…the constitutional question is…whether the Senate is a continuing body or not and whether the rules carry over in the Senate from one senate to the next…

    I thing there is a constitutional argument to be made…but I’m not well enough versed in the argument to make it here….nor will I try…that will be settled by people far more qualified than I am…

    my only argument pertains to whether we would be better off without the filibuster….

    which is a question I am torn over…because I know we’ll likely have the majority soon…and I am enraptured by the thought of what can be accomplished if Republicans can bring legislation to the floor without it being blocked…or bring nominees to the floor for a vote without being blocked…while at the same time…I am terrified of the idea of the Dems some day being led by Chck Schumer being unencumbered by the filibuster and able to bring whatever abomination to the Senate floor for a vote

  • AceInTX

    and not allowed to just threaten it and not have to deal with it.

    my thing is this…I’m for ANYTHING that will slow the Dems down when they are bringing up bad legislation…

    in fact…I’ve been screaming that they shouldn’t be allowed to do business by unanimous consent….They shouldn’t be able to turn the lights on without a vote let alone pass legislation as was done with the Food Safety bill during the lame duck…

    and I understand what you are saying about allowing a socialist holding up conservatives from dismantling this mess….and I sympathize…which is why I say I’m torn…because the inverse of this is also true…if we don’t have the filibuster when the Socialists are in control…well…there goes the store…they can legislate whatever socialistic Utopian wet dream they like…and we won’t be able to do a thing to slow it down…let alone stop it

    As far as why they get to grow their socialistic policies when they are in power…and we don’t get to roll it back when we are in power…your beef isn’t with me…it’s with the deal makers and the reaching across the isle crowd…they are the ones who help the Dems pass their legislation when they are in…and they are the ones who prevent us from rolling it back when we’re in…

    it sucks…and it hack me off to no end…

    Slow it down….or stop it outright…

    At this point…I don’t care if they ever pass another law…do the budget…Just fund the government..and then go home…I’d be content with that at this point….but taking away the roadblocks to the Obama agenda right now is nuts…if the filibuster ends today…and they get what they want where taking away senator’s right to object to nominees is concerned…Obama gets to fill every vacant seat in the country tomorrow…from the lowest federal court in the land…to the appellate courts…right up to the courts of appeal…

    That is hundreds of Obama Judges in place to block everything Republicans do…from the bench…that’s what this is all about…and we’d better wake up to it…we’re looking at what great things are going to happen if we get control in 2 years and there is no filibuster….but it a’int gonna look so great in 2 years when we’ve got Obama Judges making rulings against everything we do from A to Z in every courthouse in America…is it?

  • Spiral

    At this point?I don?t care if they ever pass another law?do the budget?Just fund the government..and then go home?I?d be content with that at this point?.

    I disagree. A majority of federal spending in on entitlements such as Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP and Social Security. So, even if Congress never passes another piece of legislation, the United States goes bankrupt because those entitlement programs grow faster than the economy grows without Congress doing anything.

    but taking away the roadblocks to the Obama agenda right now is nuts?if the filibuster ends today?and they get what they want where taking away senator?s right to object to nominees is concerned?Obama gets to fill every vacant seat in the country tomorrow?from the lowest federal court in the land?to the appellate courts?right up to the courts of appeal?

    While the Democrats successfully filibustered 10 conservative judicial nominees during the 2003-2004 Senate (including Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl), the Republicans have never successfully filibustered liberal judicial nominees (unless you count the Abe Fortas nomination in 1968, which was not really just Republicans filibustering, but was a bi-partisan filibuster of LBJ’s nominee as LBJ was getting ready to leave office.

    So, the availability of the judicial filibuster has been to the advantage of the Left, not conservatives. Notice how the GOP did not filibuster Ruth Bader Ginsberg or Stephen Breyer under Clinton, nor did they filibuster Sonja Sotomeyer or Elena Kagan under Obama.

    Let’s also remember the scene of January 2005. The Democrats were a minority in the US Senate, with only 45 seats to the GOP’s 55 seats. Arlen Specter was ready to become the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. People were anticipating that William Renquist and Sandra Day O’Conner might retire, leaving a vacancy on the US Supreme Court. Arlen Specter advised Bush to nominate someone who would support Roe v Wade because the Democrats would filibuster a conservative judicial nominee.

    But other Republicans threatened to use the Constitutional Option, by simple majority vote, to circumvent any Democrat filibuster of conservative judicial nominees. In fact, the Democrats had in the previous Senate, the 2003-2004 Senate, filibustered 10 conservative judicial nominees, including Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kagan. Many Republicans told the Democrats that if they did any more judicial filibustering in the new Senate, in which the GOP had a larger majority, the Republicans would use the Constitutional Option and bypass the filibuster with a simple majority vote.

    John McCain appeared on MSNBC’s Hardball show with Chris Matthews and said that Bush should withdraw conservative nominees that the Democrats had objections to. Eventually, McCain and other moderate cut the Gang of 14 deal in which some conservatives would get an up or down vote, but others would be sacrificed. The deal continued to allow judicial filibustered under “extraordinary circumstances” (undefined term) while many Republicans said that if the Democrats used the “extraordinary circumstances” excuse to filibuster, they would, again, use the Constitutional Option.

    This real reason why Roberts and Alito were confirmed and not filibusterd by the 45 Senate Democrats is because the Republicans threatened to use the Constitutional Option if the Democrats used the filibuster.

    So, the filibuster is a barrier to improving the federal judiciary. Ending the availability of the filibuster will make it easier to get conservatives on the federal courts. Sure, theoretically the absence of the filibuster would make it easier for liberals to get on the federal courts. But since the GOP has not used the filibuster against any liberal judicial nominee in recent memory, giving up that option is giving up nothing at all.

    The GOP should use the filibuster at every opportunity while they are in the minority. Once they obtain the majority, they should end the availability of the filibuster to advance the conservative cause.

    On balance, the filibuster has damaged the US, not helped it. The impending bankruptcy of the US is the proof.

  • AceInTX

    that’s hundreds of vacancies filled with Obama judges ready to rule against every Republican piece of legislation enacted by every state government and congress….

    that’s hundreds of judges ruling against Republican administrations forcing the EPA and other executive branch agencies to rewrite rules…

    As I’ve said…I’m torn in all this…what I’m wanting folks to do right now is…to ask themselves…after all these years…why are the Dems ready to do this now?

    I think what I lay out above is why…they see their ability to get elected slipping away…so the power play is to put judges in place to protect their gains…and even to decide a close election or two…maybe effect Amnesty and voting rights for illegals and convicts so they have a chance at the ballot box again

    something stinks here….there is a reason they are doing this now….and I’m weary and have learned to look a gift horse in the moth when it’s Dems that gave me the horse….

  • rbdwiggins

    I highly recommend, but most strenuously disagree.

    The filibuster is the only viable tool for combating radical change, and Mobocracy will be the likely result from establishing a 51-vote threshold in the Senate. Witness the incredible damage that can be done to our Republic by 59-60 liberal Democrats and a smattering of liberal Republicans.

    The “rights of the minority” and State’s rights were protected in the original text because each Senator was chosen by his respective State Legislature. That safeguard was removed by the XVII Amendment.

    To obtain the results you seek, Conservatives simply need to convince a large enough percentage of the American electorate to seat 67 conservative Senators with a clear mandate.

    Respect the rule of law, respect the rules of the Senate and defend the US Constitution.

  • redneck_hippie

    I can’t get past the thought that I want it to be hard for congress to pass laws. Period.

    Both sides pass bad laws.

    The fewer bad laws that get passed, the fewer bad laws we have to elect more people to undo.

    Congress Will Always Pass More Bad Laws than Good.

    It’s human nature. The Do-Gooders…..Don’t Do Good.

  • redneck_hippie
  • AceInTX

    as I’ve said…I’m torn…

  • AceInTX

    I think my argument still holds where the affects on the HC debate and how it played out leading to a 65 seat pickup in the house and 6 seats in the Senate…

    I need to chew on this a while

  • Superheater

    Ending the filibuster makes the Senate even more like the house. The framers had intended the bicameral legislature to have two houses that were filled and operated DIFFERENTLY.

    Both the states and the people are political subdivisions of the nation, both need to have their interests represented. With the direct election of Senators, we now have two houses that are elected and act much, way too much, the same way. As it stands now, too many think being a Rep is just a proving ground to show that you can mount and wage effective campaigns-after which you get to run statewide and vote on the things like treaties and SCOTUS judges. End the filibuster and it makes Congress more imperious and insular.

    Whatever the merits of the filibuster, to end it now will just make it a liberal pawn. I’m not looking for a two-year repeat of the just completed lame duck.

    The only way to FAIRLY end the filibuster-after much thought and sober deliberation, is to have it end in the future far enough along that any partisan advantage is unpredictable.

    But that brings up a problem.How can you bind a future Senate without infringing on its rights to operate as it deems fit. The only way it seems is by Constitutional Amendment-Good Luck.

    People really need to think about this before jumping on the bandwagon. Lets be honest-isn’t the idea inherently less attractive because its now part of the left’s wish list?

  • rbdwiggins

    And human nature, absent reverence, logic and principled reasoning, falls prey to the law of unintended consequences.

    Under no circumstances can Conservatives allow the federal judiciary to fall further prey to President Obama’s radical transformation.

    Article III Vacancies
    As of 01/08/2011

    Court Vacancies Nominees Pending
    US Court of Appeals 16 8
    US District Courts 81 34
    Total 97 42

    Source.

    The filibuster is the one weapon in the current arsenal that must be preserved in order to fight this upcoming battle, and contrary to historical precedent, Conservatives must ensure its use.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    while trying to write the column for 5-7 days. Its complicated.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    it could have been repealed with 51 votes when the public sent the GOP to majorities in the House and Senate.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    has prevented correcting existing laws that effected the radical change. We need to do radical surgery on existing laws, not our fundamental law, The Constitution which rightly requires 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states.

    Ordinary legislation like Soc Sec, Medicare and ObamaCare should not have the near constitutional right protection like the First Amendment.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    this is a close call.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • Spiral

    This is an excellent point. The Framers were careful to place “checks and balances” in the US Constitution to prevent mob rule democracy. They did this by giving us 2 legislative chambers instead of 1. And 3 branches of government. They required a 2/3rds vote of Congress to override presidential vetoes and to Amend the US Constitution.

    Another excellent point, in response to those who say that if we don’t have a filibuster rule as part of the Senate rules that “radical change” will be enacted, is when you mentioned, “Don’t look now, but radical change has been occurring since 1933 while the Senate filibuster rule was in place.”

    I think the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and TARP issue is a very good example of why the filibuster rule has harmed the United States, not helped.

    In the last decade Republicans wanted to put tighter controls on the activities of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. But they didn’t have 60 votes in the US Senate. The GOP only had 51 senators in the 2003-2004 Senate and had 55 senators in the 2005-2006 Senate. Democrat Senators refused to support any restrictions on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

    Thus, the filibuster rule, the 60 vote cloture requirement, prevented corrective action against bad public policy.

    Then the financial crisis hit. There was a desire to “do something.” The TARP package sailed through Congress, despite the filibuster rule, the 60 vote cloture rule. It was the US House of Representatives that actually came closest to defeating TARP, not the Senate.

    Thus, the filibuster rule prevented good legislation from passing, but did not prevent bad legislation from passing.

    Same for judicial nominations. Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl are not on the US federal court of appeals because the Democrats filibustered them (and 8 other conservative judicial nominees) in the 2003-2004 Senate.

    But no liberal judicial nominees have been prevented from taking their seat on the US federal courts due to the filibuster (60 vote cloture) rule.

    Thus, the filibuster rule is a rule that says, “Head the liberals win; Tails the conservatives lose.”

    When liberals win, they pass their agenda. Be it Social Security in the 1930s. Medicare in the 1960s. Obama-care today.

    When conservatives win, the filibuster prevents conservative legislation from being enacted and prevents conervatives from being confirmed to the US federal courts.

    Junk the filibuster.

  • rbdwiggins

    won’t right the ship, and in the interim, the federal judiciary will be lost for another generation.

    The next time liberals/progressives return to power they will swiftly reverse course. Instability, uncertainty and chaos will ensue.

    The filibuster didn’t stop the “corrections.” Until the 2010 mid-terms, Conservatives simply failed to make the case to a large enough percentage of the American electorate to receive a mandate to implement transformational government reform.

    It’s up to Conservatives to educate and convince the American electorate to elect a super-majority with a mandate to defend the Constitution and restore our Republic.

    Grab the momentum generated by the Tea Party during the mid-terms, and get to work electing a conservative legislative majority and an Executive that is hell-bent on restoring the US Constitution and defending our hegemony in 2012.

  • Spiral

    As Gamecock has written, radical change has been implemented in the United States while the filibuster has been in place. In fact, Obama-care passed even though the filibuster was in place. Same for TARP, Social Security, Medicare, SCHIP and so on.

    The filibuster has not prevented bad, radical legislation from passing the Senate and becoming law.

    Also, it is untrue that the filibuster is the only “check and balance” against mob rule.

    The Framers of the US Constitution placed numerous “checks and balances” into the structure of our government.

    They divided our government into 3 branches, the Legislative, Executive and Judicial branches.

    With respect to the legislative branch, they divided that branch into 2 separate legislative chambers, a US House and a US Senate. With respect to the US Senate, they staggered the 6 year terms of office into 3 separate classes.

    They gave the President, the US House and the US Senate different terms of office, the President being elected every 4 years, the US House every 2 years and the US Senate elected every 6 years.

    They stated that overriding a presidential veto would require a 2/3rds vote of both the US Senate and the US House. The stated that Amendments to the US Constitution would require a 2/3rds vote of both the US Senate and the US House and 3/4ths of the state legislatures.

    Most importantly, and Gamecock mentions this too, the US Constitution has several protections for the minority such as the 1st Amendment’s guarantee of Freedom of Speech, Press and the right of assembly. This allows those who have lost an election to rally the public for corrective action in subsequent elections.

    The filibuster, however, is not one of those “checks and balances” contained in the US Constitution. The filibuster was created by accident by Vice President Aaron Burr when Thomas Jefferson, the US’s 3rd president, was in office.

    Most of the current filibuster rules have been in place since 1975.

    The filibuster has been used by the Left in the past to defeat the conservative agenda even after the Left got defeated at the ballot box. The Left will do so again if we leave the filibuster rule in place.

    In 2012 is it likely that the GOP will win the White House. Since there are 33 senate seats up in 2012, 23 of them currently held by Democrats, it is also likely that the GOP will win the majority of the Senate in 2012.

    Thus, in January 2013 conservatives will have a chance to prevent the US from collapsing into bankrupcy like Greece. But only if the filibuster is eliminated so that the Left can not obstruct with only 41 out of 100 Senators in the Senate.

    The filibuster versus the health of the United States. Take your pick. You can’t have both.

  • Spiral

    The filibuster didn?t stop the ?corrections.?

    Yes. The filibuster did stop the “corrections.” The 60 vote requirement did prevent an attempt by the GOP to restrain Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

    The 60 vote requirement did allow 10 conservative judicial nominees to be defeated by the filibuster at a time when the Democrats held only a minority of US Senate Seats in the 2003-2004 Senate. Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl are not on the US federal court of appeals because of the Democrats’ judicial filibusters in the 2003-2004 Senate.

    The GOP has never had 60 Senate seats. Thus, as long as the 60 vote cloture requirement remains in place, the Democrats will be able to block the conservative agenda even if the GOP wins the White House, the US Senate and the US House in 2012.

    Therefore, the GOP should support the demise of the filibuster either now or, even better, once the GOP wins control of the Senate and White House in January 2013. Otherwise, the United States will go bankrupt because the Democrats will use their minority veto power, given to them by the filibuster rule, to guarantee US bankruptcy.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/07/AR2011010703152.html

    excerpt:

    Rep. Fred Upton, 57, who represents southwestern Michigan, is now chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. He notes that last summer the Progressive Change Campaign Committee got 95 Democratic congressional candidates to pledge support for federal regulation of the Internet. In November, all 95 lost. Upton will try to stymie the FCC’s impertinence by using the Congressional Review Act, under which a measure to reverse a regulation gets expedited consideration and cannot be filibustered in the Senate.

  • rbdwiggins

    The Democrats will always be able to stymie Republicans until Conservatives are willing to go to the mat and defeat Liberalism/Progressivism in the minds of the American electorate.

    Ending the filibuster may achieve instant gratification, but it also ensures that the law of unintended consequences will rear its ugly head, sooner, rather than later. The Left will return to power with a vengeance unless they are defeated in the arena of ideas and forced to accept the terms of unconditional surrender.

    The American electorate is paying attention. Don’t squander this opportunity.

  • rbdwiggins

    Conservatives must convince at least four senate Democrats to support strict scrutiny and regulation reform while holding together the GOP coalition.

  • AceInTX

    I was distracted yesterday writing a diary that was so involved it has become 3 separate diaries…

    You and Spiral are spot on about the fact that we haven’t filibustered their judges…and I hadn’t thought that part of my argument through…that part of my arguments have to do with the fact that Harry Ried is also moving to stop the practice of Senators being able to place holds on appointees to the bench and executive branch agencies.

    which I oppose….

    I would add that neither of you have addressed my point that had Ried not been faced with the filibuster…he would have introduced a single payer system and that’s what we’d be faced with today.

    Not the second part of that argument…that the filibuster gave us time to slow him down…gave opposition time to build….which eventually became the TEA Party…which lead to the Dems in your face passage of the bill dispite the widespread opposition…which THE lead to the outrage that manifested itself in the Nov 2nd 2011 elections.

    I contend…if Ried and Pelosi had not been faced with the fact that a single payer bill would be filibustered…that the house would have passed a single pay bill…sent it to the Senate and Ried would have moved it to the floor and passed it within a month or two…and we’d have a single payer system right now…the public would never have gotten as outraged as it did…and while we likely would have picked up seats…I don’t think we’d have swept these elections the way we have all the way down to local and state offices.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    there were many more exceptions. At what point would such exceptions reach the tipping point of converting us from a republic to a dangerous pure democracy? smile…but get my point? heh

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    kicked in decades ago!

  • rbdwiggins

    is wholly dependent on an informed electorate, not filibuster reform and the quest for instant gratification.

  • AceInTX

    if you have one majority passing legislation that is completely repealed 2 to four years later only to be reenacted again 2 to four years after that

  • rbdwiggins
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    that inevitably pisses off the American people, we can reverse it with 51 votes!

    This is the problem Ace. Yes, absent a filibuster, just as with a filibuster, bad legislation gets passed, mostly by the left. Yet, we can’t reverse bad policies even after we win wave elections because the filibuster stands sentinel for their bad stuff.

    We, on the other hand, as conservatives, are not about the business of wanting to pass a bunch of big government expansion laws.

    Yes, at times we have used the filibuster to stop bad laws from being worse, and yes, absent the filibuster a Dem Party that controls the white House and Congress can pass more bad laws.

    But nature takes its course and voters vote us back in to correct the problem, and even when we win the white house and Congress we can’t reverse course due to the 60 vote rule.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    merely because of the lack of a public option taking effect earlier. Not seeing that logic, especially since the tea partier movement started in early 2009 due to mortgage forgiveness, TARP and the non-stimulus.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    if you formally wed the Filibuster! smile

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I also think there may be some other matters that are not subject to filibuster.

    Or do you favor expanding the filibuster to include budget resolutions, regulation reversals and all other bills the Senate could entertain?

  • pilgrim

    “A conservative is someone who stands athwart history, yelling ‘Stop’, at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who so urge it.”

    To me this is the lone Senator who says “I object” to a unanimous consent motion. I know non-conservatives have also said those two words, but I am not convinced that junking this is going to guarantee that all of the bad laws that come are all going to be repealed by the same simple majority in the future. There are never any guarantees, and there are no changes in procedure that are a panacea for all the wrongs done in the US Senate. Instead of clinging to a procedural change we just need to get better at electing people of good moral character to the US Senate.

  • rbdwiggins

    because the GOP lost its spine, abandoned its conservative principles and chose the path of “bipartisanship” decades ago, rather than going to the mat to defeat the enemies of the Republic.

  • AceInTX

    so less bad legislation is enacted in the first place…which is why I’m opposed to the current system where the Majority Leader doesn’t have to take the time to actually hold cloture votes…or quorum calls…or any of the rest of it.

    Right now…McConnell tells Ried we want to block bill A…Red sends his whip out to count votes in order to see whether McConnell has 40 votes…mean time…he’s working on getting 6 or eight other pieces of bad legislation to the floor.

    The Whips go out and start lobbying Snowe, Collins, Graham, Brown, Lugar, or any other squish they might be able to get to go along with them by either salving their egos…or bribing them with a road named after them…and once he’s done that…he moves his bill to the floor..Mitch looks around with his customary dear caught in the headlights surprise that he couldn’t hold it together….while Ried goes to work breaking the next paper filibuster in line…

    the way it should work…is that Senator A….or Senators A, B, and C, take the floor…and they refuse to yield it back…if Ried wants to break them up and move his legislation…he’s supposed to call the cloture vote….a quorum call has to take place…and a calling of the rolls….all this takes time…had this been in place during the lame duck…Ried could only have moved one or two bills to the floor at best…instead…we ended up with a laundry list of Obama’s wet dreams passed and now law.

    to add insult to injury…our geniuses allowed the FOOD SAFETY BILL TO PASS BY UNANIMOUS CONSENT…so now…you get a fed assigned to dictate how grandma can grow food in her garden.

    what a bunch of….ahh…what’s the use

    anyway…you are looking at it from the other side…how do we repeal what they’ve already done…and in that context…you are absolutely right…the problem with that is…if we work it from your side of the equation…the problem we face is…they can enact more bad legislation quicker than we repeal it…

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    can be waited out unless they eat, drink and use the restroom while still standing on the floor and of course, eventually fall asleep.

    We can’t be WFB standing athwart history and STOP anything that has already been passed into law given the filibuster that is a virtual perpetual green light for the major lib legislation that has the nation going broke and preventing us from drilling for oil in expanded areas.

  • rbdwiggins

    and then, only after there are 67 Senators and 290 Representatives willing to abrogate their constitutional mandate to produce a federal budget and vote to change the Congressional Budget Act of 1974.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    is enshrined in the Bill of Rights, which this filibuster rule does not touch.

    Ordinary legislation should not receive the protection similar to that afforded basic rights that do require super majorities to overturn..

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    conservatives to have 60.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    But would love to hear the connections.

  • AceInTX

    and I get the argument that the filibuster makes it harder to repeal….

    but I think you and Spiral underestimate the shift that will occur and how bad it will be if there is no filibuster possible…

    As it is right now…even the House has to factor in what can pass the Senate before pushing something through…take away the filibuster…and not only will it be easier to pass more bills through both houses faster…it will also be much more radical and extreme leftist legislation that will get past…

    yeah…we’d be able to repeal a lot of it when we get in…but then you have to ask yourselves what our squishes would allow us to repeal….and since the laws past would be much more extreme…things would still move leftward…and I believe it would do so at an even faster pace.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the argument of how much worse things would be if the American people were not more protected from harming themselves is not very persuasive. Look at the Welfare State edifices that exist today that Reagan, Newt revolutionaries wanted to cut back and couldn’t and look at how fast the american people responded at the polls in response to Dem total control of DC in 1980, 1994 and 2010. With 51 votes I think we would have actually CUT government in the past rather than merely holding the status quo ripe for the next time Dems stumble into power.

    Ace, you seem to be showing a pessimism about the wisdom of the American people in your fear of majority rule within the constitutional framework.

    If we are so far gone that you think a filibuster is all that keeps us from being Europe, after 70 years in which we have moved close to being like europe with the filibuster, then I would have to conclude that this whole discussion is about deck chairs on the Titanic.

    The filibuster will not save America.

    The absence of one just might give us the chance.

    God bless.

    In mourning re the timid Colts that wouldn’t go for the TD or first down when they were in the Red Zone and trailed by 4 late in the game. But still have the Falcons and Vick to pull for…

  • AceInTX

    As were the founders…again…I agree with Hamilton about the need for the Senate to be a cooling saucer so people’s passions don’t run wild.

    I’m really pessimistic about it since Senators are elected by popular vote now….and not appointed by the states so they can protect state’s rights…The Senate is supposed to be a bulwark against nob rule…take away the filibuster and senators become nothing more than 100 more representatives from the House…passing the whims of the people allowing the laws to ebb and flow with the passions of public sentiment

  • pilgrim

    Yet the argument you make in your diary is that with a simple majority the GOP will right all the wrongs and repeal all of the bad laws put in place when the Dems have the majority. I do not have any confidence in a GOP majority doing what you say they will do. You can cling to that optimism and hope, but I am not seeing it happen. Your analysis of constitutional law is brilliant. The politics of completely junking the filibuster are simply that it ain’t gonna happen. I can see it being mended but not ended.

  • AceInTX

    we just had a Congress Person shot…and passions are running high…something that can be exploited to enact all kinds of gun control legislation…so the Dems go out and get the public fired up and all of a sudden the pressure is to ban all guns because of what just happened…

    Without the filibuster…how do you slow things down to the point were cooler heads prevail instead of everyone going off half cocked and passing anything with the term “protecting Congresspeople” attached to it??

  • rbdwiggins

    Sorry about the root word…

    Eliminate the filibuster following the repeal of the XVII Amendment, and then, two-thirds vote in the Senate.

    The Congressional Budget Act can be repealed with a two-thirds majority vote in both houses, but I find it hard to believe that 67 Senators and 290 Representatives would actually carry through with its repeal. Although, I can’t say it’s impossible, just highly improbable considering today’s digital world and the growth of the Tea Party’s influence on the political climate.

  • Spiral

    An informed electorate would be a huge advantage for conservatism and the health of the United States.

    However, as long as 41 Senate Democrats can block conservative legislation and conservative nominees to the US Supreme Court and federal court of appeals, the health of the United States will continue to decline until it reaches Greek-like status.

    Junk the filibuster. Save America.

  • Spiral

    Gamecock,

    You nailed it. The filibuster rule is an excellent example of the law of unintended consequences. The filibuster rule allows the liberals to enact their agenda when they win elections but allows the liberals the ability to block conservative agenda when conservatives win.

  • pilgrim

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27274

    In March 2003, the Senate voted to strip a pro-drilling provision from a larger budget bill. Five Democrats and eight Republicans crossed party lines to produce the 52-48 vote.

    In November 2003, President George W. Bush and Republican Senate leaders lobbied to have a provision to open up drilling in ANWR in that year?s comprehensive energy bill. Seven Republicans voted with most Democrats to keep the number of yes votes under 60.

    In December 2006 the Senate once again blocked oil drilling. Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-Wash.) led a successful floor battle that blocked a provision to allow oil drilling in ANWR. Three Republicans voted with most Democrats to keep the number of yes votes under 60.

    The idea that ending the filibuster is gonna achieve a conservative utopia is not what history tells us.

  • rbdwiggins

    What is “saved” will become unrecognizable in short order.

    Educate the electorate… Restore our Republic.

  • Spiral

    The filibuster rule has severely hurt America by providing the Left a “heads the Left wins; tails the conservatives lose” rule.

    The only way to level the playing field is to say straight out, “When the conservatives have more votes than the liberals in the US Seante, the conservatives win.”

    Currently we have a situation where even when conservatives triumph at the ballot box and win a majority of US Senate seats, the response from the Left is “Sorry. You didn’t win 60 Senate seats. Therefore, we will block your agenda at every turn using the filibuster’s 60 vote cloture requirement. We will not allow the conservative agenda to get voted on in the US Senate.”

    The filibuster has already done so much damage to America, it is time for conservatives to demand the filibuster’s demise. If the filibuster remains, the result will be the demise of America.

  • gekster

    that if we had Republicans with a set, we could do the same.
    I’ve read almost all of the comments regarding this.
    It seams to me all you’ve been saying is that laws you like can’t get passed,
    and ones you don’t like get passed,
    so change the rules so you get what you want.
    How about trying to get more conservative Republicans elected,
    and then we get what we want.
    You seam like the spoilled kid who can’t win at the game,
    so you want mommy to change the rules so you have a better chance at winning.
    It has worked well for them,
    and if we had elected Republicans who were true conservatives,
    it would work just as well for us.

    This will be my only comment on this.

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens
  • rbdwiggins

    It has always been Republican failure to hold the left accountable, and an untenable willingness to compromise on core constitutional principles.

    Conservatives will have their best chance in my lifetime to “win” at the ballot box in 2012. If we are successful, then the change you seek will most certainly begin.

    In the interim, it’s up to Conservatives to provide senate Republicans with the required backbone to win the looming battle over the Article III Vacancies. President Obama’s assault on the federal judiciary must be stopped.

  • Spiral

    The filibuster is one, not the only, reason why conservative victories at the ballot box do not translate into public policy victories for conservatives.

    Let’s go back about 10 years to the spring of 2001. George W Bush is president. The GOP holds a majority in the US House of Representatives. The US Senate is split 50 to 50 between the GOP and the Democrats.

    Then in May 2001, Republican Jim Jeffords of Vermont announces that he will no longer caucus with the GOP Senate and will instead be and independent and will caucus with the Democrats led by Tom Daschle from South Dakota. The Democrats have obtained a 51 to 49 seat Senate majority based on Senator Jeffords decision.

    Finding themselves in the majority, the Democrats on the Senate judiciary committee vote against conservative judicial nominees on a party line vote, with all Democrats on the committee voting against the conservative nominees and all Republicans on the committee voting for the conservative nominees.

    Many Republican Senators asked Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle to allow these conservative judicial nominees to have an up or down vote of confirmation on the floor of the Senate. But the Democrats and Daschle refused. Republicans and President Bush decided that they must focus their energies toward winning back the majority of the US Senate so that conservative judicial nominees could get confirmed to the US Court of appeals.

    In November 2002 the GOP gained a net of 2 US Seante seats. By January 2003 the GOP would hold a 51 to 49 seat majority in the US Senate. Many Republicans believed that with this new GOP Senate majority, conservative judicial nominees would be confirmed and would take their rightful place on the US court of appeals.

    The Senate Democrats, however, had other ideas. They introduced their judicial filibuster strategy. They knew that conservative judicial nominees such as Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kul and others would get seated on the US court of appeals if they received an up or down confirmation vote on the Senate floor.

    So, they used the filibuster, the 60 vote cloture requirement, to prevent conservative judicial nominees from getting an up or down vote.

    In the 2003-2004 Senate, 10 conservative judicial nominees, including Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl, were prevented from receiving a confirmation vote. Many conservatives were furious and some began to explore possible remedies for the Democrats’ blatent obstructionism.

    Martin B. Gold and Dimple Gupta wrote a history of the Senate filibuster titled The Constitutional Option to change Senate rules and procedures: a majoritarian means to over come the filibuster, which explained how the filibuster was created by accident by Vice President Aaron Burr in 1806. The Gold/Gupta history showed that on several occasions a simple majority of the US Senate was able to use the Constitutional Option to force changes in the Senate’s rules and procedures, sometimes by making changes to the Standing Rules of the Senate, other times by setting Senate precedents that changed the way Senate interpretted its own rules.

    Many Republicans believed that their 51 to 49 seat majority would not allow them to use the Constutional Option because Senators such as Lincoln Chafee and John McCain were basically Democrats in Republican clothing and would vote with the Demcorats on the Constitutional Option, allowing the Democrat minority to retain their veto power over judicial nominations.

    In November 2004 President Bush was reelected and the GOP gained a net of 4 US Senate seats, giving the GOP a 55 to 45 seat majority and breathing new life into the cause of getting conservatives confirmed to the US court of appeals. Also, many court watchers believed that Sandra Day O’Conner and William Renquist might retire from the US Supreme Court.

    By January 2005, the Democrats’ filibuster strategy on judicial nominations and the GOP’s desire to use the Constitutional Option to use majoritarian means against it were in the spotlight.

    Arlen Specter was about to ascend to the chairmanship of the Senate judiciary committee. Specter said in an interview that President Bush should nominate a pro Roe v Wade judicial nominee for a US Supreme Court vacancy because a conservative judicial nominee would simply get filibustered by 41 to 45 Senate Democrats.

    Other Republicans were outraged and continued to threaten to use the Constitutional Option if the Democrats continued with their filibuster strategy against conservative judicial nominees.

    John McCain appeared on MSNBC’s Harball show with Chris Matthews and was asked how he would vote on the Constitutional Option. McCain said that he would vote with the Democrats and that the proper way of resolving the dispute over conservative judicial nominees was for President Bush to withdraw the nominations of those conservatives whom Senate Democrats found objectionable. But conservatives believed that among the 55 Republican Senators, 50 and Vice President Cheney would vote for the Constitutional Option, effectively bypassing the Democrats’ judicial filibuster strategy and moderates like McCain.

    Then in the Spring of 2005, after months of debate over the issue, a Gang of 14 Senators issued a document called the “Memorandum of Understanding.” This memo stated that some conservative judicial nominees would receive a confirmation vote. But other conservative judicial noninees were sacrificed on the alter of bi-partisanship. The memo also left open the possibility of future judicial filibusters in an “extra-ordinary circumstance,” a term undefined by the document.

    One Republican Senator called the Gang of 14′s “Memorandum of Understanding” a document of “unilateral disarmament” and many Republicans continued to threaten the use of the Constitutional Option as a response to any Democrat judicial filibusters.

    The fact that no liberal judicial nominees have been treated as badly as conservative judicial nominees is one piece of evidence that the filibuster rule is to the advantage of the Left and to the disadvantage of conservatives. When Democrats win elections the Democrats go about their business of getting liberals confirmed to the federal courts, including the US Supreme Court and passing liberal legislation such as Obama-care. When conservatives win elections the filibuster is used as a “cooling saucer” to prevent the confirmation of conservatives to the US courts and to prevent the enactment of the conservative agenda.

    There are other examples. When Republicans held the US House, the US Senate and the White House in 2005-2006, Republicans wanted to restrict the activities of Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac. But the Democrat Senate minority, having 45 Senators, refused to allow a vote on any restrictions.

    Later, when the financial crisis occurred in 2008 the filibuster did not prevent the TARP bailouts from passing the Senate.

    Once again, the filibuster prevented good legislation from passing the Senate but did not prevent bad legislation from passing the Senate.

    America is headed to a Greek-like bankruptcy situation. America is headed to third-world lawlessness.

    Eliminating the filibuster is required to prevent this from being America’s fate.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    that “a simple majority [of] the GOP will right all the wrongs…”

    I simply don’t say that Pil’.

  • pilgrim

    To give one stark example of how America would be much better off today if the filibuster had not existed is that areas for oil exploration would long ago have been greatly expanded to ANWR and offshore from the Lower Forty-Eight.

    This is not true that we could have got it through except for the filibuster. There were eight Republicans that joined with the Democrats to block the ANWR votes. Concentrate on getting better folks into those Senate seats to get what is needed instead of hoping a change in rules is going to fix things.

    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27274

  • Spiral

    that if we had Republicans with a set, we could do the same.

    If Republicans had a set, they would get rid of the filibuster the next time they obtain the majority in the US Senate, which would take away the ability of the Left to block the conservative agenda.

    If the Republicans do not eliminate the filibuster the next time they obtain the Senate majority, this will prove that Republicans do not have a set.

    It seams to me all you?ve been saying is that laws you like can?t get passed,
    and ones you don?t like get passed,
    so change the rules so you get what you want.

    Exactly. The filibuster rule has hurt the United States of America. The Left will continue to exploit the filibuster rule so as to prevent conservatives from getting confirmed to the federal courts.

    Republicans need to, as you stated, “have a set” and tell the Democrats that they will no longer be allowed to obstruct the conservative agenda.

    How about trying to get more conservative Republicans elected and then we get what we want.

    Exactly. Let’s have the GOP win the Senate majority in 2012 (along with electing a Republican president and electing another GOP House majority in 2012). That’s step 1. Step 2 is eliminate the Demorats’ ability to obstruct the conservative agenda using the 60 vote cloture rule (the filibuster rule).

    You seam like the spoilled kid who can?t win at the game,
    so you want mommy to change the rules so you have a better chance at winning.

    It’s clear that the filibuster rule has hurt the United States. It’s clear that the United States will descend further into the socialist abyss if the filibuster is allowed to remain a Senate rule. Given these facts, leaving the filibuster as a Senate rule is evidence that one is either (a) uniformed or (b) unconcerned about the US’s gradual march toward socialism.

    It has worked well for them,
    and if we had elected Republicans who were true conservatives,
    it would work just as well for us.

    Incorrect. If we elect between 51 and 59 true conservatives to the US Senate, the filibuster, the 60 vote cloture requirement, will still allow the 41 to 49 Senate Democrats to block the conservative agenda.

    However, a true conservative has a sense of priorities. A true conservative, given a choice between being loyal to Rule 5 and Rule 22 of Standing Rules of the US Senate and being loyal to the United States of America and the US Constitution will choose the latter.

    The US Constitution contains “checks and balances” such as the division of the legislative branch into 2 chambers, the 2/3rds requirement to override a veto and a host of other checks and balances. The filibuster rule, the 60 vote cloture requirement is not a Constitutional check and balance. It is a rule of the Senate, a bad rule of the Senate. Get rid of it and enact the conservative agenda. Don’t allow 41 Senate Democrats to block conservative judicial nominees or conservative legislation.

    Junk the filibuster.

  • Spiral

    It has always been Republican failure to hold the left accountable, and an untenable willingness to compromise on core constitutional principles.

    Allowing the Left to use the 60 vote cloture requirement (the filibuster) is the opposite of holding the Left accountable.

    You can’t on the one hand say that you want the Right to hold the Left accountable and then on the other hand say that you want the Right to support the 60 vote cloture requirement (otherwise known as the filibuster), which allows the Left, even if they only have 41 to 49 US Senators, to block the conservative agenda.

    Conservatives will have their best chance in my lifetime to ?win? at the ballot box in 2012. If we are successful, then the change you seek will most certainly begin.

    Not if 41 to 49 Democrat US Senators are allowed to block the conservative agenda by using the 60 vote cloture requirement (otherwise known as the filibuster rule or Rule 22 of the Senate).

    There is a contradiction here. On the one hand there is a desire among conservatives to win the White House, the US Senate and the US House in 2012 and with those election victories, enact the conservative agenda beginning in January 2013.

    On the other hand there is Rule 22 of the Standing Rules of the Senate, which require 60 votes to invoke cloture (cloture allows debate to end and a vote on an issue to be had).

    Clearly the conservative agenda can not be enacted as long as the 60 vote cloture requirement (Rule 22) remains on the books. Take Rule 22 off the books (or drastically change Rule 22) so that the Left can not use it to block the conservative agenda.

    How can any conservative argue otherwise? How can a true conservative place retaining Rule 22 of the Senate as it is now over the priority of enacting the conservative agenda?

    In the interim, it?s up to Conservatives to provide senate Republicans with the required backbone to win the looming battle over the Article III Vacancies. President Obama?s assault on the federal judiciary must be stopped.

    My preference would be for the GOP to use any and all means to obstruct the Obama-Left-Socialist agenda, including Rule 22 of the US Senate. However, once the GOP gains the majority in the Senate, the GOP should junk the filibuster (Rule 22) and enact the conservative agenda.

  • Spiral

    Pilgrim,

    You seem to confuse 2 separate Senate rules/procedures: (a) Unanimous consent requests and (b) the 60 vote cloture requirement contained in Rule 22 of the Standing Rules of the Senate.

    When Senator Jones says, “I ask unanimous consent that we procede to a vote on agenda item X,” Senator Barnes can say, “I object.”

    However, according to Rule 22 of the Standing Rules of the Senate, Senator Jones and 15 other Senators can file a Cloture Motion, requesting a Cloture Vote on agenda item X.

    If 60 or more Senators vote Aye on the Cloture Motion, the Senate proceeds to an up or down (simple-majority) vote on agenda item X. Otherwise, the “filibuster” by the 41 Senators not voting for the Cloture Motion (either voting Nay or not voting) have succeeded in filibustering agenda item X.

    Your mixing up “unanimous consent” and Rule 22 of the Standing Rules of the Senate is why your argument makes little sense. I think many conservatvies are similarly confused because they do not understand how the Senate actually works.

    They simple saw clips of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and have decided they like it when one Senator stands up to the big-wig establishment. They don’t realize that the way the Senate actually operates, Mr. Smith is simply making a cameo appearance. Mr. Smith can not filibuster anything all by himself. He needs 40 other US Senators to do that.

    If conservatives remain uneducated about how the Senate actually works, how the filibuster actually operates, how cloture is actually obtained and under which circumstances it is obtained, conservatives will continue to be played like fiddles by the Left. And the future will be the same as the past. The Left will win victory after victory, regardless of election outcomes. It will remain a case of “Heads the Liberals win; Tails the conservatives lose.”

  • Spiral

    But if you have a Senate consisting of 51 Republicans and 49 Democrats or 55 Republicans and 45 Democrats, under Rule 22 of the Standing Rules of the Senate, 41 to 45 Democrats can block almost anything the Republicans want to accomplish.

    How do we know this? All we have to do is remember the 2003-2004 Senate, which consisted of 51 Republicans and 49 Democrats or the 2005-2006 Senate, consisting of 55 Republicans and 45 Democrats.

    Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl were 2 of the 10 conservative nominees to the US federal court of appeals that got blocked by the Democrats during the 2003-2006 time period.

    Sure, some of the 51 Republicans in the 2003-2004 Senate and some of the 55 Republicans in the 2005-2006 Senate were not a pure a brand of conservative as we would like. That is obvious. However, even if all 51 or all 55 of those Republicans had been pure conservatives, the current Standing Rules of the US Senate, especially Rule 22, would have allowed the result to be what it was: the blocking of conservative judicial nominees by 41 to 45 Senate Democrats.

    Better folks in the Senate would be an improvement. But if two facts remain (1) Republicans fail to win 60 US Senate seats (and the GOP has never won 60 US Senate seats) and (2) Rule 22 of the US Senate requires 60 votes for a cloture motion to succeed, it won’t matter how great 51 to 59 Republicans are. They will still be defeated by the combination of circumstances (1) and (2).

    This is simple math.

    If you don’t have 60 votes, you don’t win.

    The Republicans have never had 60 votes in the US Senate.

    The Democrats have had 60 votes in the US Senate many times during the last 80 years.

    The combination of these facts illustrates why the current filibuster rules (Rule 22 of the Standing Rules of the US Senate) must be changed so that Republicans have the ability to enact a conservative agenda even if they win 51 to 59 Senate seats, short of the 60 needed to end a filibuster.

    Otherwise, America’s steady march towards socialism will continue.

  • pilgrim
  • Spiral

    In 2005, there was much controversy about how the Democrats, being in the minority in the US Senate, were filibustering conservative judicial nominees.

    Arlen Specter at one point advised President Bush to only nominate pro-Roe v Wade people to the US Supreme Court.

    John McCain, being interviewed by Chris Matthews on MSNBC’s Hardball program, said that President Bush should withdraw judicial nominees deemed unacceptable by the Democrats, even though the Democrats were in the minority. The 2005-2006 Senate was composed of 55 Republicans and 45 Democrats.

    However, some Republicans believed that there was a means of bypassing the obstructionism of the Left and getting conservatives confirmed to the federal courts. Senator Jon Kyl was one of those people.

    Here is Senator Jon Kyl, speaking on the floor of the US Senate on May 19, 2005.

    On the Right of the Senate to Govern Itself

    Mr. President, I rise today to address a very simple yet momentous question: does the Senate have the power to govern itself? Specifically, can a majority of the Senate establish how it will be governed?

    I have heard much careless talk over the past few months. Some charge that the Senate will soon ?break the rules to change the rules? and ?destroy the Senate as we know it.? Some Senators claim that the Senate is about to abdicate all constitutional responsibility and is becoming a ?rubber stamp.? Others raise the specter of ?lawlessness? and ?banana republics.? Worst of all, other Senators speak figuratively of detonating nuclear bombs and shutting down the Senate?s business.

    Mr. President, this kind of hysteria does a tremendous disservice not only to the Senate, but to our whole nation. Not only are the claims blatantly false, but they add to the already unacceptable level of incivility in political affairs. It is often said that we should disagree without being disagreeable ? a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly concur. A good first step would be for my colleagues to stop making outrageous claims that Republicans want to destroy this institution.

    The reality is that the Senate is now engaged in an historic effort to protect constitutional prerogatives and the proper checks and balances between the branches of government. Republicans seek to right a wrong that has undermined 214 years of tradition ? wise, carefully thought-out tradition. The fact that the Senate rules theoretically allowed the filibuster of judicial nominations but were never used to that end is an important indicator of what is right, and why the precedent of allowing up-or-down votes is so well established. It is that precedent that has been attacked and which we seek to restore.

    Fortunately, the Senate is not powerless to prevent a minority from running roughshod over its traditions. It has the power ? and the obligation ? to govern itself. As I will demonstrate today, that power to govern itself easily extends to that device that has come to be known as the ?constitutional option.?

    Mr. President, the Constitution is clear about the scope of the Senate?s power to govern itself. Article I, section 5, clause 2 of the Constitution states that ?Each house may determine the Rules of its Proceedings.? The Supreme Court has rarely interpreted this clause, but one case is important for our purposes, that of United States v. Ballin, 144 U.S. 1 (1892). That 1892 case dealt with the power of the majority in the House of Representatives to make rules, and contains two holdings that bear on our situation today.

    First, the Supreme Court held that the powers delegated to the House or Senate through Article I, section 5, clause 2 are powers held by a simple majority of the quorum. The Constitution states that a majority of members constitutes a quorum, and the Supreme Court, therefore, held that ?when a majority are present the house is in a position to do business.? 144 U.S. at 5. The Supreme Court continued, ?All that the Constitution requires is the presence of a majority.? 144 U.S. at 6. Thus, a majority is all the Constitution requires to make rules, to set precedents, and to operate no a day-to-day basis. The Supreme Court made this clear.

    Second, the Supreme Court held that the ?power to make rules is not one which once exercised is exhausted. It is a continuous power, always subject to be exercised by the house.? 144 U.S. at 5. By ?house,? the Court means the House of Representatives or the Senate. The import of this statement is crucial for present purposes. The power of the majority of Senators to define Senate procedures is one that exists at all times ? whether at the beginning, middle, or end of Congress.

    So, Mr. President, the constitutional background is simple and uncomplicated. We can govern ourselves. We can do it by majority vote. And we can do it at any time. Let us look now at how the Senate employs its constitutional power to govern itself. There are four basic ways the Senate does so ? in standing rules, in precedents, in standing orders, and in rulemaking statutes. I will discuss each in turn.

    First, the Senate has adopted Standing Rules to govern some (but not all) Senate practices and procedures. I have seen much confusion in the press and, sadly, in this body, about those Standing Rules. Some argue that the Standing Rules are the be-all and end-all of Senate practice and procedure. This confusion is understandable outside the Senate, but Senators know that those rules are but one aspect of the overall tools ? the ?broader rules,? we might say ? that the Senate uses to govern itself.

    That brings us to the second way that the Senate exercises its constitutional power: the creation of precedents. Precedents are created whenever the Presiding Officer rules on a point of order, when the Senate sustains or rejects an appeal of the Presiding Officer?s ruling on a point of order, or when the Senate itself rules on a question that has been submitted to it by the Presiding Officer. As former Parliamentarian and Senate procedural expert Floyd Riddick has said, ?The precedents of the Senate are just as significant as the rules of the Senate.? [Oral History Interview, Senate Historical Office, Nov. 21, 1978, at page 429.] Let me repeat what Mr. Riddick said. ?The precedents of the Senate are just as significant as the rules of the Senate.? Indeed, as we will see, precedents have sometimes been created that directly contradict the Standing Rules of the Senate. I will return to this point later in my presentation, but I want everyone to remember what Mr. Riddick said.

    A third way that the Senate exercises its constitutional power is through Standing Orders, which can be adopted via legislation, Senate resolutions, or run-of-the-mill unanimous consent agreements. It is worth pausing to note that the Senate regularly overrides the Standing Rules and precedents of the Senate through unanimous consent agreements. Our Leaders get together and decide, for example, to change the time to hold a cloture vote, even though Rule 22 mandates that the vote shall occur one hour after the Senate comes into session on the second day after the cloture petition is filed. Yet the Leaders move the votes ? in direct contradiction of the rules. Now, of course a ?unanimous consent? agreement is, formalistically, ?unanimous.? But that temporary rule change, if you want to call it that, is done completely outside the Standing Rules.

    Well, Mr. President, how can they do this? How can they ignore the Standing Rules of the Senate? The answer is simple, and goes to the essence of the situation before us today. As the Supreme Court held, the Constitution gives the Senate the power to make rules and govern itself on a continuous basis. We are not held hostage to the Standing Rules, nor are we required to go through the cumbersome process of amending the Standing Rules, when it is necessary to get something done. This has always been true.

    A fourth way that the Senate exercises its constitutional power is through rule-making statutes. For example, for 30 years, the Budget Act has been placing severe restrictions on the right of Senators to debate. Indeed, the Congressional Research Service has identified twentysix rule-making statutes that somehow limit the ability of individual Senators to debate and/or amend legislation. Think about that for a moment. We hear much pontificating on this floor about the supposedly sacred and untouchable right of Senators to debate on an unlimited basis. Yet arguably our most important function ? that of ensuring that government services are budgeted and receive funding ? is subject to carefully crafted restrictions of that right. We have 50 hours of debate, followed by a majority vote. For generations, Senators have judged some limits on debate are necessary, just as a matter of common sense.

    Parenthetically, no matter how many times a few Senators say otherwise, this controversy has nothing to do with ?free speech.? As the Minority Leader has also acknowledged, this dispute ?has never been about the length of the debate.? (Cong Rec, Apr. 28, 2005) It is about blocking judicial nominees.

    Mr. President, I would like to move to another important aspect of this discussion ? the role of tradition and norms of conduct in the day-to-day functioning of the Senate. Although it is frequently said that the unique features of the Senate are individual Senators? rights to debate and amend, there is another, more central aspect to Senate procedure. As I see it, the overriding feature of the Senate is mutual self-restraint and respect for the settled norms of the body.

    Let us consider a few examples. Senators limit their speech on an informal basis virtually every day. We cut short remarks so that others can speak. We acquiesce in unanimous consent agreements that will have the effect of denying ourselves any chance to speak on a subject. We decline to object to procedural unanimous consent requests even though we might have good reasons to want to slow down Senate business. We acquiesce in our Leaders? floor schedule.

    We work with bill managers to limit amendments so that the Senate can function, so that each individual Senator?s ?rights? do not become an impediment to the task of governing. Senators have ?rights,? but we also have obligations to each other and to the nation. So we limit our rights on the basis of mutual respect and a belief in good government, but ? candidly ? also out of fear of retaliation. If I assert my rights too forcefully, I not only disrespect my colleagues, but I threaten my own public policy goals. The result is a complicated, multilateral ?truce? of sorts that allows us to do the people?s business in an orderly way. In a word, we gain stability. Institutional stability.

    In short, the Senate is institutionally stable not because of the rules, the precedents, the standing orders, or the rulemaking statutes I discussed earlier. The body is stable because we respect each others? prerogatives and understand that any breach of the truce will produce a reaction. It is that basic understanding of physics ? action, reaction ? coupled with genuine good only work because we so often choose not to exercise them. So it is not just rights that define the Senate, but also restraint.

    Which brings us back to the filibuster of judicial nominations. It is certainly the case that the Standing Rules of the Senate do countenance the filibuster of judicial nominations. But it is equally the case that the longstanding norms of the Senate do not.

    Until 2003, no judicial nominee with the demonstrable support of a majority of Senators had ever been denied an up-or-down vote on the Senate floor due to a filibuster. Even on the rare occasions where there were attempts, they failed. On a bipartisan basis. And why, Mr. President? Because the filibuster of judicial nominations ? used as a minority veto ?was not part of our tradition. Again, out of respect for fellow members, for the President, for the Judiciary, and out of a recognition of the long term impact of such tactics, the Senate had always declined to march down this path. When I entered the Senate in 1995, I had grave concerns about some of the more activist nominees that President Clinton sent us. But I listened to my Chairman, Orrin Hatch, my Leader, Trent Lott, and many others. They taught that we had a longstanding Senate tradition against blocking judicial nominations by filibuster. So I joined Democrats and Republicans alike in preventing filibusters.

    Ironically, some point to successful cloture votes for confirmed judges and then claim that those nominees were ?filibustered.? All that establishes is that both parties ensured a supermajority to end debate precisely to adhere to the historical norms. We took the steps to ensure that those judicial nominees who reached the Senate floor received the fair, up-or-down votes to which they were entitled.

    Again, the standing rules might have permitted such obstruction, but the Senate norms and traditions did not. To the extent that the rules technically permitted such obstruction, the traditions had rendered the power obsolete and inert. In common law, there is a doctrine called desuetude, which means that obsolete or unenforced laws shall not have effect in the future, even if not formally repealed. In other words, a law that is de facto unenforced may be treated as ineffective de jure as well. We faced a similar situation in the Senate.

    In effect, our tradition was our rule. To minimize the traditions of this body is to display a naive and legalistic misunderstanding of the history of the institution. To say we are a body of traditions is meaningless if we do not simultaneously acknowledge that our traditions have content and meaning.

    There can be no question that the filibusters of the last Congress broke that Senate tradition, and, therefore, the settled way this body governed itself. By breaking the traditions of the Senate, members of the minority should have known that they would force the Senate to react.

    Traditions should never change without consensus, and a consensus requires ? at a minimum ? a majority. The question, Mr. President, is what we are to do when norms and traditions are changed by the minority? What do we do when there is no consensus, just a minority with a determination to exploit dormant rules to further partisan ends?

    The Senate can do one of two things. We can let our traditions be transformed and permit rule by the minority, or we can insist that the Senate maintain its traditional norms and take action to protect them. And that, Mr. President, brings us to the Constitutional Option itself.

    The ?Constitutional Option? is nothing more than the Senate governing itself as the Constitution provides ? by acts of the majority of Senators. The Senate has been in this situation before. Four times over a 10 year period, the Senate majority reacted to a minority that was using rules that had not traditionally been used to obstruct Senate business. My colleague, Senator McConnell, will be discussing each of these instances in depth, but I would like to address one in particular, by way of illustration.

    In 1977, two Senators attempted to block a natural gas deregulation bill after cloture had already been invoked. They were succeeding through a strategy of ?filibuster by amendment.? Post-cloture debate time had elapsed, but the obstructing Senators could still call up amendments, force quorum calls, and then force roll call votes on the amendments. Rule 22 prohibited dilatory or non-germane amendments, but Senate procedure did not provide any way to automatically rule these post-cloture amendments out of order. True, a Senator could raise a point of order against one of these dilatory amendments, but any favorable ruling could be appealed. A roll call vote could then be demanded on that appeal. And once that roll call vote began, the obstructing Senators could accomplish their slowdown in a different way ? filibuster by roll call vote. To make matters worse, in 1977, before any point of order could even be made against an amendment, the amendment in question had to be read by the clerk. By objecting to the routine courtesy of waiving of the reading of the amendment, the obstructing Senators delayed Senate business even further.

    Now, that all may seem complicated, but there?s one undeniable truth about what these obstructing Senators were doing. It was all completely permitted under the Standing Rules and precedents of the Senate. At the same time, however, these tactics were in violation of settled Senate norms and practices. So what was the Senate to do?

    The answer came when the then-Democratic Majority Leader made the decision that these new tactics were dilatory, in violation of traditional norms and could no longer prevail. He asked then-Vice President Walter Mondale to sit in the Chair in his capacity as President of the Senate. The Democratic Majority Leader then made a point of order that ?when the Senate is operating under cloture the Chair is required to take the initiative under Rule 22 to rule out of order all amendments that are dilatory or which on their face are out of order.? (Cong Rec, Oct. 3, 1977) Mondale sustained the point of order, even though it had no foundation in the rules or precedents of the Senate. Another Senator appealed the Mondale ruling, and the Democratic Majority Leader moved to table. The Senate then voted to table the appeal. In so doing, the Senate created a new precedent. But that precedent ran directly contrary to the Senate?s longstanding procedures which had required Senators to raise points of order to enforce Senate rules. Under the new precedent established by the Senate, no such point of order would be necessary.

    Again, this may seem complicated, but these small changes had dramatic effects. The Democratic Majority Leader then began to call up each of the dilatory amendments so that the Chair could rule them out of order, one-by-one, and the Chair obliged. Under normal circumstances, an appeal would have been in order, but the Majority Leader exercised his right of preferential recognition to block any appeal. He quickly called up every single remaining amendment, Vice President Mondale ruled them out of order, and all the amendments were disposed of.

    Nearly 20 years later, the Senator who orchestrated those events in 1977 explained to the Senate what he had done. He explained ?I asked Mr. Mondale, the Vice President, to go please sit in the chair; I wanted to make some points of order and create some new precedents that would break these filibusters. And the filibuster was broken ? back, neck, legs, and arms.? (Cong. Rec., Jan. 5, 1995) So there should be no confusion about what happened that day.

    That was the Constitutional Option in action. The Senate faced a situation where a minority of Senators was frustrating Senate business in an untraditional way. The majority wished to proceed. The majority did not propose a formal rules change, refer the proposal to the Rules Committee, wait for its action, and then bring it to the floor under Rule 22?s cloture provisions for such rule change proposals. That procedure was not followed. Instead, the Majority Leader recognized that the Senate had the constitutional power to bypass that route ?which is exactly what the Senate did.

    As I mentioned earlier, Mr. President, that same Democratic Leader would create several other precedents while serving as Majority Leader, in each case because he concluded that the existing standing rules and precedents of the Senate were inadequate, and that a majority of Senators had the power to alter the way the Senate governs itself. In 1979, for example, a new precedent was created to prevent legislation on appropriation bills, in direct contravention of the text of the Standing Rules at that time. In 1980, the Senate used the Constitutional Option to eliminate the ability to debate ? and filibuster ? the motion to proceed to a particular item on the Executive Calendar. That situation is remarkably similar to the one we face today. And in 1987, in a complicated set of maneuvers, the Senate created new precedents to limit minority rights and to declare that certain dilatory tactics during the Morning Hour were out of order.

    Mr. President, I will not examine each of these historical events in detail here today. Instead, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a copy of a policy paper prepared by the Republican Policy Committee, which I chair, that examines each of these events in great detail.

    These past precedents ? in 1977, in 1979, in 1980, and in 1987 ? bear directly on the situation the Senate faces today. In those instances, Senate business was being obstructed by dilatory tactics that had not traditionally been employed, but which were permitted under the rules. The Senate faced the same conundrum as it does today: must the Senate permit rule by the minority, or can it exercise its constitutional power to restore traditional practices? In each case, the Senate did the latter. It created precedents that altered the practices and procedures and in some cases the operation of the Standing Rules themselves in order to ensure that tradition was upheld.

    Mr. President, what did not happen as a result of these earlier exercises of the constitutional option?

    First, the Senate did not collapse or become ?like the House? ? the perennial (and somewhat condescending) fear of many Senators.

    Second, Senators? speech rights are just as strong as ever. Nor were Americans ?free speech? rights injured, as some Senators say will happen today.

    Third, minority rights were not destroyed. The Senate minority is as vibrant as ever and has been remarkably successful at obstructing the business of the Senate, whether we are talking about the energy bill, medical liability lawsuit reform, asbestos litigation reform, or tax relief.

    Before I close, I would like to address concerns that some of my conservative friends
    have expressed recently. Some are fretting that Republicans are taking a dangerous step by restoring the traditional up-or-down vote standard for judicial nominations.

    My friends argue that Republicans may want to filibuster a future Democratic President?s nominees. To that I say, I don?t think so, and even if true, I?m willing to give up that tool. It was never a power we thought we had in the past, and it is not one likely to be used in the future. I know some insist that we will someday want to block Democrat judges by filibuster. But I know my colleagues. I have heard them speak passionately, publicly and privately, about the injustice done to filibustered nominees. I think it highly unlikely that they will shift their views simply because the political worm has turned. So I say to my friends: what you say we Republicans are losing is, in fact, no loss at all.

    My friends also argue that the legislative filibuster will be next. I have even seen some media outlets insist that this exercise of the Constitutional Option for judicial filibusters will automatically apply to the legislative filibuster. That is completely false. Moreover, Mr. President, no Republican Senator wants to eliminate the legislative filibuster, and few, if any, Democrats do. Some once did, but they have recanted. In fact, the Junior Senator from California said she was ?wrong ? totally wrong? ever to have thought otherwise. (Weekly Standard, 3/28/05) Everyone here knows that political fortunes change. It is one thing to give up a supposed ?right? that had never been used, such as this filibuster of judicial nominees. It is quite another to be so shortsighted as to eliminate such a powerful legislative tool. In fact, the first vote I ever cast as a United States Senator was to preserve the legislative filibuster ? and I was in the majority!

    But I think it is important to acknowledge, in the interest of intellectual honesty, that if the majority wanted to eliminate the filibuster for all matters, including legislation, it would certainly have that power. It would be wildly imprudent, contrary to tradition, and genuinely destructive of the institution. But that is what the Constitution provides ? the power to the Senate to govern itself.

    So, in closing, I say to my colleagues: what we are contemplating doing is in the best traditions of the Senate. We are restoring our consensus practices for managing the judicial confirmation process, using a tool that has repeatedly been used and always been available. I look forward to completing this debate so that we can start voting on individual judicial nominees and turn to the pressing legislative matters before the Senate.

  • Spiral

    A couple of points:

    (1) Rule 22 of the senate requires 60 votes to end debate on an item of senate business. This means that if 60 US Senators want to enact gun control, the 40 US Senators who oppose gun control will be unable to block gun control using the filibuster.

    (2) If we are actually talking about the current situation, there is a Republican controlled US House of Representatives that is likely to block gun control regardless of what Rule 22 of the Senate says or does not say. This is, in fact, a “check and balance” that the Framers of the Constitution had in mind. They deliberately divided the legislative branch into 2 separate chambers to, as you said, slow things down. The Framers did not require that a 3/5ths vote be required to pass ordinary legislation in the US Senate.

    (3) The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution was designed to slow things down in the sense that supporters of gun control would have to pass an Amendment to the US Constitution repealing the protections of the 2nd Amendment in order to achieve their goals.

    (4) The US Constitution provides for an independent judiciary, which could strike down a gun control law as an unconstitutional violation of the 2nd Amendment. However, to get an independent judiciary, it must be possible to get conservative judicial nominees confirmed. The current Rule 22 of the Senate, which currently requires 60 votes to end debate, has in the past and will in the future make it impossible for a conservative to

    To this you might respond, “But John Roberts and Samuel Alito got confirmed, despite Rule 22′s provisions.” Ah, but this happened in the 2005-2006 Senate, when the GOP held a 55 to 45 seat majority and many GOP Senators openly threatened, both before the Gang of 14 deal and after the deal, to use the Constitutional Option to bypass any judicial filibuster conducted by the Senate Democrats.

    In other words, the threat of eliminating the power of the Democrats to filibuster judicial nominees is what allowed Roberts and Alito to get an up or down confirmation vote. If, however, the GOP had announced that the filibuster could under no circumstances be tampered with, the 45 Senate Democrats would have looked at that announcement as an invitation to filibuster any and all conservative judicial nominees.

    If the GOP announces that, even when they are in the majority, they will defer to the Democrat minority, the Democrats will accept that deal and use the filibuster relentlessly to defeat all conservative agenda items, including the confirmation of conservative judicial nominees.

    If, on the other hand, the GOP announces that nothing, not Senate rules/procedures, not a desire for “bi-partisanship,” not “respect for tradition” will get in the way of enacting the conservative agenda, the Democrats will simultaneously beg the GOP to be “bi-partisn” while denouncing the GOP as acting “power hungry.”

  • Spiral

    In 2005, when the US House and US Senate consisted of a majority of Republicans and a Republican was in the White House, there was a repeated effort to restrict the activities of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs).

    However, the GOP Senate Majority was 55 Republican and 45 Democrats. Thus, the GOP in the Senate did not have enough votes to break a filibuster on GSE reform. The Democrats in the Senate refused to support reform of the GSEs. This allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to continue their activities.

    It is estimated that the US taxpayer will eventually have to pay as much as 400 billion dollars due to the liabilities run up by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

    The GSE debacle is just one example of how the filibuster rule in the Senate, which requires a 60 vote super-majority to end debate on a piece of Senate business, has been used by the Left to severely damage the United States of America.

    Those who are serious about turning America around must be serious about eliminating the filibuster so that the Left will no longer be able to lose at the ballot box but win through use of the filibuster.

  • Spiral

    In 2005, when the US House and US Senate consisted of a majority of Republicans and a Republican was in the White House, there was a repeated effort to restrict the activities of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs).

    However, the GOP Senate Majority was 55 Republican and 45 Democrats. Thus, the GOP in the Senate did not have enough votes to break a filibuster on GSE reform. The Democrats in the Senate refused to support reform of the GSEs. This allowed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to continue their activities.

    It is estimated that the US taxpayer will eventually have to pay as much as 400 billion dollars due to the liabilities run up by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

    The GSE debacle is just one example of how the filibuster rule in the Senate, which requires a 60 vote super-majority to end debate on a piece of Senate business, has been used by the Left to severely damage the United States of America.

    Those who are serious about turning America around must be serious about eliminating the filibuster so that the Left will no longer be able to lose at the ballot box but win through use of the filibuster.

  • Spiral

    AcInTx,

    I understand your pessimism. The Founders of this country, as you mentioned, were pessimistic about “democracy.” That is why they placed in our US Constitution a series of checks and balances.

    These checks and balanes include 3 branches of government, the division of the legislative branch into 2 legislative chambers (House and Senate), the staggering of election terms (6 years divided into 3 classes in the Senate, 2 years in the House, 4 years for the President), a 2/3rds of Congress requirement to override a presidential veto and to amend the US Constitution and to ratify treaties. We also have the bill of rights which protect minorities, even when they lose elections, most importantly the freedom of the press/speech/assembly.

    Notice, however, that the requirement for a super-majority vote in the US Senate to act on Senate business is not in the US Constitution. In other words, the Founders of this country, the Framers of the US Constitution, did not support the idea that a super-majority of the Senate should be required for the Senate to take a vote on an issue, be it legislative or be it on a judicial or executive nomination.

    Also, in the past 200 plus years we have never used the Amending Process to amend the US Constitution so that a super-majority of the Senate is required for the Senate to act on an item of Senate business.

    Thus, we must not equate Rule 5 and Rule 22 of the Standing Rules of the Senate with the US Constitution itself. We must not equate the 60 vote cloture requirement of Rule 22 with the checks and balances built into the US Constitution.

    Too often conservatives make this mistake. We must stop paying undue respect for Rules 5 and 22 of the Senate as though they were worthy of the same respect required of our founding documents and principles (the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence).

    In fact, the filbuster was created by accident in 1806 by Vice President Aaron Burr when Thomas Jefferson, our 3rd President, was in office. VP Burr deleted from the Senate rules a rule that allowed the Senate to end debate on an item of Senate business.

    Conservatives are making a serious mistake to equate Aaron Burr’s mistake with James Madison’s masterpiece (the US Constitution).

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    prevented the expansion of domestic oil exploration.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10560979/ns/politics/

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    much earlier in the threads that what is debatable is the weighing of pluses and minuses with or without the filibuster based on what was passed and not repealed with the filibuster vs what would have been passed and repealed without the filibuster and that on that score their is a lot of subjective judgment and predictions on which reasonable people can disagree.

    Moreover, that any claim of Hitler or Mussolini type efficiency is quite absurd especially given our constitutional system and that the filibuster has nothing to do with the exercise of arbitrary executive power, but rather is a legislative device that relates in no way to executive efficiency.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • pilgrim

    Please correct me if I misconstrue your argument. As I understand it you welcome the complete end to the filibuster in the Senate because you believe the pluses of great votes when the Republicans have the majority again are going to outweigh the minuses of the lousy votes when the Democrats have the majority. You believe removing the filibuster streamlines the legislative process and lets the US Senate work more efficiently.

    I do not believe the pluses outweigh the minuses, and I do not want a more streamlined and efficient US Senate. It is a close call either way, and we can never know what might have been on the road not taken.

    You are a great debater, and you would have posted better and more cogent arguments against the filibuster if that was your position.

  • pilgrim

    There were Republicans who voted against every ANWR vote I have seen taken. The worst example is the early vote that stripped ANWR out of the bill in the first place. That was a 52-48 vote, and 8 of the Republicans voted with the minority Democrats on this vote. All of the cloture votes that followed in these two sessions of Republican majority did not require all 8 of them to vote against cloture every time. They knew it just takes 41, and if it only takes 2 of them to get to 41 then that is all they do.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    51 votes most every other instance except for that 2008 period.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Long, bitter battle
    A decade ago a Republican-led Congress used a parliamentary maneuver to get an ANWR bill successfully past a filibuster, only to have it vetoed by President Clinton. This time President Bush has made ANWR drilling one of his top priorities and is eager to sign a bill.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10560979/ns/politics/

    Bottom line is that Democrats in large percentages and in many capacities, have prevented the US from expanded oil exploration. Once, a few Republicans joined with Democrats and helped make the margin of defeat.

  • pilgrim

    In March 2003, the Senate voted to strip a pro-drilling provision from a larger budget bill. After this defeat it was never allowed to be added as an amendment to any other bill for the 2 back to back sessions when the Republicans held the majority.

    The ring leader of the eight who stripped the pro drilling went on to become the GOP candidate for President in the 2008 election.,

    Chafee (R-RI)
    Coleman (R-MN)
    Collins (R-ME)
    DeWine (R-OH)
    Fitzgerald (R-IL)
    McCain (R-AZ)
    Smith (R-OR)
    Snowe (R-OR)

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    that have combined since 1978 to weaken the US re oil exploration.

    My bottom line on oil, CRA, ObamaCare, Fannie/Freddie is that is is always easier to get 51 votes than to have to get 60.

    But yes, there are dangers in abandoning a process that has been in place essentially from the beginning of the Republic, even if it was not in the Constitution.

  • jamesmackey

    Without the Filibuster the Democrats would have been able to import 20-30 million new voters by the way of illegal alien amnesty. End of the Republican party. Be careful of what you wish for.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    are not keen about passing new legislation but more about repealing Big Govt legislation.

  • Spiral

    I think another way of looking at this issue is as follows:

    Liberal giveaway programs have no problem getting over the 60 vote hurdle presented by the filibuster rule. Why? Because US Senators in general like being thought of as “generous” and “compassionate,” even when they are being generous and compassionate with money confiscated from taxpayers.

    This explains how unsustainable entitlement programs have been enacted into law despite the availability of the filibuster.

    The same can be said for Amenesty for illegal immigrants. The first amnesty program passed on a bi-partisan basis during the Reagan administration. Additional amensty bills were also supported on a bi-partisan basis. When legislation is supported on a bi-partisan basis, it can easily clear the 60 vote hurdle.

    But conservative legislation is supported by logic, not the emotions. Thus, conservative legislation often can only win the support of Republican US Senators. Medical liability reform and the reform effort of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac are important examples. Democrats, beholded to socialist ideology as they are, could not accept either medical liability reform or the reform of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac. Thus, while those legislative items did have majority support in the US Senate, they did not have enough support to clear the 60 vote hurdle.

    And the same can be said for conservative judicial nominees. Even a highly qualified conservative judicial nominee like Miguel Estrada or Carolyn Kuhl could not get the support of 60 US Senators because of their conservative, constitutionalist views. Thus, they were not allowed a Senate confirmation vote and are not sitting on the federal circuit court of appeals today. But liberal judicial nominees have no problem clearing the 60 vote hurdle, despite the fact that they view the US Constitution with scorn or contempt.

    I could be wrong. But I believe that the next time the Republicans have control over both the White House and the US Senate, this filibuster issue will have to be dealt with.

    I can forsee a situation in which Antonin Scalia announces his retirement from the US Supreme Court. A Republican president would probably nominate a conservative, in the hopes or retaining the current “balance of power” on the US Supreme Court. The Republican majority US Senate would lean towards confirming this nominee.

    However, the Democrat minority in the US Senate would pull out all the stops to defeat this nominee. Having learned with the Estrada and Kuhl nominations during the 2003-2004 Senate, they would dust off their filibuster strategy and thereby make it impossible for the conservative nominee to receive 60 votes on a cloture motion.

    At this point, the Republicans would face “a time for choosing.” Which is more important? Rule 5 and Rule 22 of the US Senate and the values of getting along with Democrat US Senators? Or keeping the US Supreme Court from drifting even further to the Left, further away from its constitutionalist mandate?

    Some naive Republicans might think, “Well, if this nominee can’t get the support of enough Democrats to get 60 votes for cloture in order to break the filibuster, maybe he (or she) really is the anti-abortion, anti-environment, anti-black, anti-gay extremist that Chuck Schumer and Barbara Boxer say he (or she) is.”

    That kind of worship of the filibuster will lead to disasterous results, in my opinion.

  • Spiral

    However, pullling a Kowalski here, I completely understand the desire among conservatives to obstruct the Democrats in the US Senate on anything and everything. This is a very healthy desire, given the disasterous policies supported by the Democrats.

    I am tempted, therefore, to simply cheer the Republican US Senators on when I read about how some Senate Democrats are considering the Constitutional Option. It is tempting for me to accuse those currently mentioning this concept of the Constitutional Option as being desparate, unethical and unconcerned about the credibility of the US Senate. Perhaps this is all true.

    However, the fact of the matter is that the Constitution does give a simple-majority of the each House (both the US House of Representatives and the US Senate) the power to make their own rules. It is also true that a Senate in 1959 can not revoke those powers from a simple-majority of the Senate.

    In addition, conservatives might have an ability to remember what happened just a few short years ago to highly qualified constitutionalist judicial nominees. Conservatives have to be willing to look past the current issue of the day and consider the long term health of the federal courts. If conservatives continue to place Rule 5 and Rule 22 of the US Senate on a legal plane higher than the US Constitution itself, they will fail to do their duties to the Republic the next time they hold the majority.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • pilgrim

    http://www.redstate.com/mirac777/2011/01/12/revisiting-the-food-safety-bill-repeal-it/#comment-4

  • Spiral

    Actually, amnesty for illegal immigrants passed the US Senate several times during the 1980s and 1990s, despite the availability of the filibuster.

    We have had several waves of amnesty under the current rules that allow filibusters.

    Bad legislation never has a problem getting over the 60 vote cloture requirement.

    It is good legislation that gets stopped by the filibuster, more often than not.

    Also, good conservative, constitutionalist judicial nominees have had their confirmation votes blocked by the filibuster. Examples are Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl in the 2003-2004 US Senate.

    Liberal judicial nominees, however, never get blocked by the 60 vote cloture requirement.

    This is why the filibuster rule is to the long term disadvantage of the country.

  • Spiral

    Actually, amnesty for illegal immigrants passed the US Senate several times during the 1980s and 1990s, despite the availability of the filibuster.

    We have had several waves of amnesty under the current rules that allow filibusters.

    Bad legislation never has a problem getting over the 60 vote cloture requirement.

    It is good legislation that gets stopped by the filibuster, more often than not.

    Also, good conservative, constitutionalist judicial nominees have had their confirmation votes blocked by the filibuster. Examples are Miguel Estrata and Carolyn Kuhl in the 2003-2004 US Senate.

    Liberal judicial nominees, however, never get blocked by the 60 vote cloture requirement.

    This is why the filibuster rule is to the long term disadvantage of the country.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine
  • mirac777

    Whatever the merits of the filibuster, to end it now will just make it a liberal pawn. I?m not looking for a two-year repeat of the just completed lame duck.

    We have a House power right now and also have many Dem Senators looking over their shoulders as they are up in 2012. We can get some Dem votes and get a few bills sent to Obama’s desk in the next 2 years. This will force his liberal hand to veto, which will help work against Obama in 2012.

    Right now we can use House votes to show the people just where Senators stand, either for, or against the people. Having the filibuster sure as hell didnt stop Obamacare, Fake Financial reform or the Food safety scam from passing, so why would we think it would stop GOP bills from being passed in 2012 if we get the majority in the Senate? This seems more like a ploy for an argument, instead of working on real issues to restore America. Dems are masters at distraction also.

    Either way Dems when in Majority change rules damn near as often as people change socks. Both Parties do for that matter. So why worry about it? We the people sure as hell can’t change Senate rules. To argue this point, someone has to think that the Senators will actully listen one way or the other here. That simply will not happen when it comes to the Rules of the Senate.

  • jamesmackey

    Only one amnesty in the past 25 years and that was Reagan’s in 1986. Also illegal immigration wasn’t the problem back then like it is today. If the elites get their amnesty it will mean the end of the GOP. 12-20 million illegals will be able to bring in their wives, parents, brothers, sisters etc etc. They will be equally poor . This could be close to 40-50 million new people. 75 percent of them will be on some form of government assistance.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    for all of the period from 1978-today