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Perry loses cool in Vegas as Cain wins GOP debate 3400 to 999

By: Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary)  |  October 18th, 2011 at 11:45 PM  | 

RESIZE: AAA

Cain wins Nevada GOP debate 3400 to 999, Perry loses cool

Garden-gate attack on Mitt Romney and inappropriate  show of temper may make Rick  Perry wish his performance could have stayed in Vegas by the time the next polls are conducted.

But Herman Cain heartened anti-Romney conservative hearts by offering a blockbuster alternative to RomneyCare and/or ObamaCare with a call for interstate competition in the health care industry.

Bay State Garden-gate

Perry’s attack on old stories about Mitt Romney’s alleged hiring of illegals shocked this conservative out of my chair more than any electrified border fence could. The Texas Governor referred to an old story about a landscaping company that Romney had hired that was discovered to have illegal workers employed.

There was no evidence that Romney knew the status of all employees of the company and he fired the company after discovering that it had broken the law. Romney was never charged with violating any law.

Perry, who famously questioned the condition of conservative hearts that oppose in-state tuition for illegals, indicts Romney for hiring the mothers of illegals to earn the money to pay the tuition? Was Romney indicted for breaking employment or immigration laws?

Perry temperament problem

For this viewer, Perry’s show of temper spoke for itself. I doubt his jobs plan can overcome what was seen of Perry’s temperament tonight in Las Vegas that seems inappropriate to the presidency to this Republican. But temperament isn’t everything. Witness what cool got is in President Barack Obama’s policies. But before Perry gets to be compared with Obama, he has to best the cool customers named Cain and Romney, and on that score I suspect his garden-gate attack makes his quest for the nomination futile.

9-9-9 no VAT

On a brighter note for conservatives, Herman Cain and his 9-9-9 Plan continued to be the target and he refuted the attacks on the sales tax element as equivalent to a European-style VAT tax that is easily hidden by pointing out that double-digit corporate, income, FICA, and capital gains taxes are all embedded in product prices today.

Cain’s plan would eliminate capital gains and FICA taxes while drastically reducing income taxes while only adding back a 9% sales tax on new goods. Clearly his plan would embed much less cost in products and services than under current law. The reduction in taxes in this way would be a boon for exports and the creation of jobs generally due to the reduced cost of production and other factors.

Cain was less effective in defending attacks from Mitt Romney that lower income workers and the unemployed would be hurt by the sales tax. Yes, the bushel of oranges, federal taxes now levied, hurt those same groups now; but Cain needs to do a better job in explaining how his reduction of the oranges to but three helps all groups more than the regressivity of the sales tax hurts, especially when applied in states that raise most of their money through state sales taxes.

3400 + 9-9-9 = Cain leaves Vegas still the frontrunner

Cain also found his voice on health care by being the first candidate to endorse a specific  replacement for ObamaCare in the debate by backing H.R. 3400, which, among other things, ends state monopolies on the sale of health insurance. This is probably the best single act that government could take to lower heath care and insurance premium  costs.

Perry would have been better off simply accepting the mantle as the compassionate on illegals conservative. His stand on in-state tuition was not the reason he comes in 3rd or 4th in polls. His problem has been debate performances and incompetence in defending his record and positions on the issues. I suspect that not only will his personal attack on Mitt Romney’s hiring of a landscaping company not help the Governor of the Lone Star State on the issue of illegal immigration but may also have revealed a temperament inappropriate for the presidency in its aftermath.

Time will tell, but for this Rooster poised to vote from his Stone Mountain of Georgia roost come Super Tuesday 2012, the race is now down to three: I lean to Cain. Still considering Newt and Mitt.

Mike DeVine

Editor - Hillbilly Politics

Co-Founder and Editor - Political Daily

Atlanta Law & Politics columnist –  Examiner.com

“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

More DeVine Gamecock rooster crowings at Modern Conservative, Unified Patriots,  and Conservative Outlooks. All Charlotte Observer and Atlanta Journal-Constitution op-eds archived at Townhall.com.

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COMMENTS

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  • izoneguy

    I think more Americans feel like Perry. Time to get in the establishments
    face. Cain is trying to hard to become an establishment guy. The
    analysis of 999 shows lower income folks paying more and higher income
    folks paying less. Add Cain’s gaffe about prisoner swaps
    and you have no more raisin Cain.

  • captkirc

    I expect this kind of thing from Jerry Brown/Gloria Allred but It’s pretty distasteful coming from a conservative. There are a million legitimate lines of attack on Mitt Romney but this isn’t one of them at least as far as I am concerned.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Perry’s put up with a lot of garbage from hypocrites who don’t have a clue how difficult it is to deal with illegals in your state that the feds refuse to deal with. Romney had this one coming.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    for citizenship. That is absurd. Perry embarrassed himself with that gutter personal attack that essentially accuses Mitt of a crime and the display of temper that followed looked ugly and inappropriate for a would be President, imho.

    Unlike Mitt and Rick, Herman admits mistakes and I don’t think that the prisoner issue will be more than a blip. In fact, less than a blip. I do think he needs to tweak the sales tax element of 9-9-9 for low income and the poor or convince them of the benefits despite the effect on their standard of living. He might be able to do that by comparing the embedded taxes in prices now vs his plan.

    But tweaking is not fatal to Cain because it remains a bold and simple plan that would ignite a boom economy and he is now offering an alternative to ObamaCare ahead of the others.

  • gator_hoo

    I will begin by agreeing with you on one thing: the Garden-gate attack isn’t substantively an issue. However, as to temperament, Perry was able to fluster Romney, which was the first time that Romney has been flustered in any of the debates. So to call it inappropriate, when it was, in fact, effective, is a bit misplaced.

    Secondly, Cain didn’t come across as cool as much as kinda foolish. 1) I don’t negotiate with terrorists, unless I do, and then it’s okay. 2) I was joking about an electric fence for those people who are offended by that idea, but if you like it, I am serious about it. 3) I can’t control state taxes, so I am going to ignore that they exist. So what you call cool, I call unaware of the impact, and sometimes the substance, of his own plans.

    Furthermore, everyone knew he was going to have to defend 9-9-9, and didn’t do a great job defending it. Substantively, you are right that the sales tax won’t act as a VAT. However, in 9-9-9 the corporate tax is on gross receipts*, not income, and its the corporate tax that will ultimately act as a VAT.

    Perry scored some good points, and came alive, which was what he needed to do. Cain didn’t get overly flustered, but appeared confident in answers that were at time frankly nonsensical.

    So, respectfully, I disagree with your analysis.

    *There are exceptions for capital expenditures, but that doesn’t change the VAT analysis.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    he hired illegals is beyond the pale and his show of temper made him look out of control, not tough, imho.

    Everyone is a hypocrite if we stand for anything. Since the left stands for nothing, they never are.

    Substance is what matters and if you are going to accuse someone of a crime, you ought to have proof, but even then its usually not advised.

    Perry’s heart would give in-state tuition to the child of a landscaper but not allow that worker to earn the money for the tuition? Perry hypocrisy? I think so.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    on all but voting for illegals here more than 3 years, now and not just after a fence. Its too bad that Perry wasn’t content to be the leftie on the issue and instead got bad advice and showed bad judgment, fatal in my case, in going after Mitt on the garden-gate matter. Looked bad doing it.

  • gekster

    You don’t like it because it hurt Romney.
    I guess the shine is coming off hte liberal apple.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    when the Cocks give the Gators their second straight chickin’ lickin in football after defeating them in the College World Series as well…smile

  • captkirc

    I have no problem with any part of Governor Perry’s record on immigration and I agree with you that those who don’t live in a border state shouldn’t be so quick to judge or worse cynically make politcal hay out of it.

    That said, at least that is a discussion of policy. This is just a cynical cheap shot by a frustrated Perry. I am equally disgusted with those on the right who would seek to score points against Perry about his hunting ranch, his wife, or the Pastor who introduced him. The candidates should debate policy and leadership skills and leave this kind of garbage to the left.

  • gekster

    And I bet you if Romney could have gorren in a cheap shot, he would.

  • gator_hoo

    Looking into the issue, I have to disagree that the Garden-gate thing isn’t a big deal. I was unfamiliar with the whole story, and what I had read wasn’t damning. However, it wasn’t just an issue that Romney hired a company, and then found out they had an illegal alien. I wouldn’t blame him for that.

    However, after he discovered they were hiring illegal aliens, he stayed with that company for a year. So he knew that he was employing a company that hired illegals, which in fact continued to employ illegals at his residence. That is an issue. And when you say that he fired the company after he found out they had broken the law, you conveniently leave the year time period out.

    Perry should be outraged when Romney isn’t willing to abide by his own rules.

    Not good at the link thing, but here is the NYT link saying that he kept the company for a year after first discovering they employed illegals.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/us/politics/illegal-immigration-and-romneys-lawn-care-debated.html

  • captkirc

    I actually considered not voting rather than vote for Romney in 2008 had he been the nominee because I found him to be an insufferable phony who has no core beliefs. Nothing has changed four years later except the chances of me not voting.

  • gator_hoo

    I’ll give you your props on winning last year. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every so often.

  • izoneguy

    Blast from the past – Mitt Softer on Illegals than Perceived

    In contrast, Romney waited until 18 days before leaving office to secure federal permission for state troopers to arrest illegal aliens. Actually, this program never commenced. As promised, Romney?s Democratic successor, Governor Deval Patrick, scrapped it before troopers began relevant training.

    Romney?s immigration record was ho-hum long before this 11th-hour initiative. Beyond opposing drivers? licenses and in-state college tuition for illegals, Romney?s failures helped keep Massachusetts attractive to them.

    It may be a private matter that illegal aliens raked Romney?s lawn as recently as November 29. But Romney?s administration should have scrutinized state employees more carefully. Among nine Massachusetts public-works sites examined in the June 18, 2006 Boston Globe, 38 percent of weekly wage-earners lacked valid Social Security numbers. At one university masonry project, 55 of the contractor?s 87 workers had dodgy Social Security numbers. Some belonged to dead people. One jail-construction worker offered this unusual Social Security number: 666-66-6666.

    ?The governor is not surprised that our current immigration laws are a mess,? Romney?s gubernatorial spokesman Eric Fehrnstrom shrugged.

    Meanwhile, Romney let Brewster, Brookline, Cambridge, Lexington, Orleans, and Somerville, Massachusetts openly flout federal immigration laws.

    ?I?m not going to break the trust we have built up with the immigrant community to enforce the misguided policies of the federal government,? Somerville Mayor Joseph Curtatone said in the July 6 Somerville News.

    Romney could have pressured or sued these six sanctuary cities to become non-sanctuaries. He also could have slashed their allowances. Instead, state tax dollars cascaded into their coffers.

    Romney?s proposed assistance to these locales grew from $103,218,421 in Fiscal Year 2004 to $107,419,246 in FY 2007 — up 4.1 percent.

    Did Romney challenge these sanctuary cities?

    ?Absolutely not,? Cambridge mayoral spokesman John Clifford told the American Spectator?s Philip Klein. Clifford laughed: ?He never took on Cambridge, except out of state.?

    ?Romney?s being a hypocrite on this issue,? Somerville?s Joseph Curtatone told ABC News. ?I did not receive a mandate, any communication, anything at all from him about this. If it?s so important to him, why didn?t he have the state police enforcing it??

  • captkirc

    He didn’t once point out the although taxpayers would be paying both state and federal sales taxes, they would ,in theory, be paying that much less in income/payroll taxes so as to be able to afford the doubling up of the sales taxes. I’m guessing that point was lost on a large portion of the viewers.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Why doesn’t that bother you as well?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    much less imbedded tax under 9-9-9 than currently.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    someone of a crime unless it is true. Big difference. Plus Perry is weak on illegal immigration and so am I! I recently changed positions on amnesty except for voting rights now, and not only after a fence. See here:

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/10/03/gop-can-affirm-rule-of-law-and-define-amnesty-down/

    So I am a fan of Perry on immigration. I am not a fan of accusing another of a crime in this way. Is my sensitivity due to my career as a criminal defense lawyer? possibly, but it should be just as unacceptable to non-lawyers. Perry owes Mitt an apology for the unsubstantiated personal attack that is worse than the Mormon stuff the preacher stated imho.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    beam me up scotty

  • captkirc

    In reference to the loaf of bread. Many voters will have hard time grasping that concept though. Its much easier to explain to people that their take home pay will be bigger especially in 30 second debate soundbites.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I don;t have time to write war and peace every time I write a column with 700-800 word limits. He knew he hired a company that HAD hired illegals? So? I’m sure McDonalds has. Do we not eat there?

    You don’t accuse a man of a crime absent proof. Plus, where is that famous Perry heart for the parent to earn a living so they can pay their kid’s in-state tuition? He’s the bigger hypocrite, but as I say, hypocrisy is the puny sin allegation resorted to by those that can’t win on substance.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    falsely accused Mitt of a crime without proof. Bad judgment, bad taste and bad temper.

    My amnesty epiphany:

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/10/03/gop-can-affirm-rule-of-law-and-define-amnesty-down/

  • westcoastpatriette

    You’ve lost your marbles and you are over-dramatizing the issue. Perry is not accusing him of committing crimes, he’s pointing out what a hypocrite Romney is for acting like he cares so much about the issue while doing nothing about illegals working for him.

    Methinks the roosters’ been up too late.

  • http://www.whyromney.com Ryan Larsen

    As is often the case, digging should come before concluding. Mitt hired the agency in the first place because the owner lived in Mitt’s LDS Stake, where Mitt had served as Stake President. The owner said he didn’t realize any of the employees were illegal, but admitted to not following mandated hiring practices. Mitt gave the owner of the company a second chance but only after he fired the illegal workers and Mitt made clear how important it was for him to comply with the law.

    So it is still true that Mitt did not hire illegals and did not knowingly employ a company that hires illegals. Mitt is only guilty of giving someone a second chance.

    The following is from http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/us/politics/05romney.html

    After the discovery of the illegal workers a year ago, Mr. Romney said in his statement yesterday, he ?gave the company a second chance with very specific conditions.?

    ?They were instructed to make sure people working for the company were of legal status,? he said. ?We personally met with the company in order to inform them about the importance of this matter. The owner of the company guaranteed us, in very certain terms, that his company would be in total compliance with the law going forward. The company?s failure to comply with the law is disappointing and inexcusable, and I believe it is important I take this action.?

  • http://www.whyromney.com Ryan Larsen

    And great diary. I thought it was unfair for the other candidates to pile on Herman Cain. Dick Morris has a great article defending Cain, and I want to bring it to your attention:

    http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/9-9-9-can-save-our-country/

    And thanks for defending Mitt regarding the cheap shot on hiring illegals. I posted a comment below with a little background info most people aren’t aware of.

  • http://www.whyromney.com Ryan Larsen

    Your source says, “Romney waited until 18 days before leaving office to secure federal permission”

    He was waiting on the federal government to grant his request which he had submitted six months earlier.

    Your source says, “Romney?s administration should have scrutinized state employees more carefully”

    That crackdown was the REASON Mitt submitted the federal request to allow MA officers to enforce immigration laws. The crackdown was in June of 2006

    Your source says, “Romney could have pressured or sued these six sanctuary cities to become non-sanctuaries.”

    No, not without the legislature.

    From http://aboutmittromney.com/immigration.htm:

    Campaign Consistency:

    “In 1994, when he tried to unseat Ted Kennedy, he ran against higher taxes and government-run health care, and for school choice, a balanced budget amendment, welfare reform, and “tougher measures to stop illegal immigration.” He was no Rockefeller Republican even then.”
    (National Review – Romney for President)

    “The Mitt Romney who hit the campaign trail in 2002…was now a media star – People magazine would soon name him one of the 50 Most Beautiful People in the World… He favored the death penalty and an initiative petition to replace bilingual education with English immersion;”
    (The Boston Globe – Taking office, remaining an outsider)

    ACTIONS TAKEN AS GOVERNOR:

    The Boston Globe – Romney Stand Dims Chances of License For Undocumented – Oct 28, 2003

    “The prospects for a controversial proposal to allow roughly 150,000 undocumented immigrants to obtain drivers’ licenses in Massachusetts darkened considerably this week as Gov. Mitt Romney came out against the idea and the bill’s sponsor acknowledged that ‘it doesn’t look as if the legislation could become law.’ …

    ” ‘Those who are here illegally should not receive tacit support from our government that gives an indication of legitimacy,’ the governor said, echoing arguments that opponents have voiced in the commonwealth and in other states considering similar license measures. ‘If they are here illegally, they should not get driver’s licenses,’ he said.” (2003)

    The Boston Globe – Romney vetoes $108.5m in budget – June 26, 2004

    “Romney also rejected a proposal to allow undocumented immigrants to pay in-state tuition rates at state colleges and universities” (2004)

    The Boston Globe – An unfair reward for illegal immigrants – Nov 8, 2005

    “A bill currently being considered by the Legislature would provide in-state tuition at our public colleges and university to individuals who are in the United States illegally. That is wrong. Because a family breaks the law, that should not entitle them to a taxpayer subsidy. Enactment of this legislation would encourage more illegal immigration and send the wrong message to those immigrants who played by the rules. Governor Romney vetoed a similar provision last June, and he is prepared to do so again.” (November 2005)

    The Boston Globe – For new governor, divisive issues loom – Sep 9, 2006

    “Also certain to resurface in the Legislature is a bill that would provide in-state tuition rates at public colleges to undocumented immigrants.

    “Lawmakers approved the tuition measure last year, but Romney vetoed it and an attempted override failed in the House in January” (2006)

    The Boston Globe – Troopers can arrest illegal immigrants in Romney deal – Dec 3, 2006

    ?Governor Mitt Romney has reached an agreement with federal authorities that allows the Massachusetts State Police to arrest immigrants who are in the state illegally, his spokesman said…

    ?Under the deal, brokered after months of negotiations, troopers can detain people they determine are illegal immigrants during regular police duties, Fehrnstrom said…

    ?In June, when Romney announced he was seeking the deal, he said it would give the State Police a way of “finding and detaining illegal aliens in the ordinary course of business.” ?

    Salem News – Feb 16, 2007

    ?Mitt Romney seems to have a similar patriotic sense of what it means to be an American, and presents it and himself well. He stopped special benefits for illegal immigrants here, where he had some authority.?

    Boston Globe – Dec 14, 2007
    “He instituted English immersion in the public schools and abolished the old bilingual education system.”

  • gator_hoo

    I am perfectly willing to give someone a break on a first mistake, but this conditions story could just as easily be one of political convenience as the truth, particularly with Mitt. On this one, I am going with the Vicious Dog Theory, the first bite is free, but the second bite will cost you.

    Furthermore, Gamecock’s discombobulation is based on the theory that there is no proof that Romney knew anything, and that just isn’t true under any actual version of the story.

  • Vaughn Harold

    do the math themselves and know EXACTLY what the government is taking from them. I do think that the sales tax part of the plan needs to go away to avoid the politics surrounding the issue and be replaced with a FICA tax so that we have a 9 for business, a 9 for income, and a 9 for social security and medicare.

    I couldn’t agree more with your diary. Perry did better, but should have focused on his plans to run the country, by not doing so it makes you wonder if he even knows what his vision for America is. He is really coming off as not having a lot of confidence.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I think Cain held his own last night.

    The spin is against DeVine. I suspect CNN is being duplicitous in wanting to boost Perry to weaken Mitt and the whole field and it seems Perry supporters are so happy to see he has a pulse that they have lost their moral compass on what he actually did, which was ugly.

    I would never accuse anyone in that way even if the newspaper accounts are true because they do not meet the standard of KNOWINGLY hiring illegals. I wouldn’t ever bring that up but if I were a hardliner on the issue I still don’t think its proper to make such allegations unless the person has been convicted of the offense or they admit it in public.

    This quality of restraint is especially important in the Chief Executive who executes the laws, ie prosecutes violations of the law.

    But I guess I am very sensitive to allegations of personal venality outside of the legal process and especially on a subject that requires a premise that I don’t accept, ie that we should check the citizenship status of all companies we hire and that if they are caught we should not do business with them again even if assured they are not hiring illegals. And for a Texas citizen much less governor to make such assumption is more hypocritical that the accused. Especially when Texas doesn’t make sure that the in-state tuition they collect is not from illegal work! It was what we call in the South, ugly. You don’t call out your neighbor like that especially when the premise is unrealistic.

    Then the show of temper looked ugly.

    I am held to exacting standards and so I hold others to those same standards.

    I would NEVER accuse someone of something that is illegal or question their word or integrity absent proof, and the fact that a company HAD hired illegals doesn’t mean that he knew nor that he knew they continued to do so after he confronted them the first time. I have seen the whole exchange on transcript from the debate and the statements of Mitt back when this came up and all he said was to the landscaper is that he had to be even more careful as he was running for office.

    Reminds me of the things people said during Prohibition about saving face. Of course it shouldn’t be wrong to hire illegals since everyone else is or is abiding it.

    And for Perry of all people to take this cheap shot disgusts me.

    From the mind and heart of DeVine. I would never do what Perry did and I don’t like people that do things like that.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    hold him accountable. Still waiting…

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    imho

  • izoneguy

    Romney dropped his guard for a moment

    When Perry finally told Romney to “have at it,” Romney explained that he had hired a company to do lawn work and had no idea the company hired illegals until it was reported in the paper. But in the course of that explanation, Romney dropped his guard for a moment and uttered a few words he will likely hear again in the coming campaign.

    “We went to the company, and we said, ‘Look, you can’t have any illegals working on our property,’” Romney said. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals.” It wasn’t clear whether Romney thought hiring illegals was bad in itself or whether he just thought it would look bad for a candidate pursuing the Republican nomination for president.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I suspect CNN is being duplicitous in wanting to boost Perry to weaken Mitt and the whole field and it seems Perry supporters are so happy to see he has a pulse that they have lost their moral compass on what he actually did, which was ugly.

    I would never accuse anyone in that way even if the newspaper accounts are true because they do not meet the standard of KNOWINGLY hiring illegals. I wouldn’t ever bring that up but if I were a hardliner on the issue I still don’t think its proper to make such allegations unless the person has been convicted of the offense or they admit it in public.

    This qiality of restraint is especially important in the Chief Executive who executes the laws, ie prosecutes violations of the law.

    from earlier

    But I guess I am very sensitive to allegations of personal venality outside of the legal process and especially on a subject that requires a premise that I don’t accept, ie that we should check the citizenship status of all companies we hire and that if they are caught we should not do business with them again even if assured they are not hiring illegals. And for a Texas citizen much less governor to make such assumption is more hypocritical that the accused. Especially when Texas doesn’t make sure that the in-state tuition they collect is not from illegal work! It was what we call in the South, ugly. You don’t call out your neighbor like that especially when the premise is unrealistic.

    Then the show of temper looked ugly.

    I am held to exacting standards and so I hold others to those same standards.
    I would NEVER accuse someone of something that is illegal or question their word or integrity absent proof, and the fact that a company HAD hired illegals doesn’t mean that he knew nor that he knew they continued to do so after he confronted them the first time. I have seen the whole exchange on transcript from the debate and the statements of Mitt back when this came up and all he said was to the landscaper is that he had to be even more careful as he was running for office.

    Reminds me of the things people said during Prohibition about saving face. Of course it shouldn’t be wrong to hire illegals since everyone else is or is abiding it.

    And for Perry of all people to take this cheap shot disgusts me.

    From the mind and heart of DeVine. I would never do what Perry did and I don’t like people that do things like that.

  • http://www.nighttwister.com NightTwister

    Remember 2008? In all the debates, there was only one adult in the room. That’s true this time also.

  • izoneguy
  • APA Guy

    I just love how constant attacks on Perry are seen as productive and “part of the game” where presidential politics are concerned, but when Perry hits back on an issue that has, thus far, been ignored because of some mythical statute of limitations, he is seen as “losing his cool”.

    The truth is, the other candidates drew first blood in this primary. Perry was correct to bump back…and hard.

  • APA Guy

    I just love how constant attacks on Perry are seen as productive and “part of the game” where presidential politics are concerned, but when Perry hits back on an issue that has, thus far, been ignored because of some mythical statute of limitations, he is seen as “losing his cool”.

    The truth is, the other candidates drew first blood in this primary. Perry was correct to bump back…and hard.

  • APA Guy

    Does anyone remember 2008? Both the GOP and Dem primaries were brutal…especially the primary that produced the eventual president. There is nothing wrong wit a little knock-down, drag-out now and then.

    Of course, if it becomes habit, it loses its purpose. But I think this diary is a little over-the-top on the drama of the matter. They fought…they moved forward. It was good for the process but cooler heads will prevail in the end.

  • http://www.whyromney.com Ryan Larsen

    With all due respect :)

    If Romney had never fired the company, but continued using their services to this day, it wouldn’t matter. Because, no one boycotts companies for having a few illegal employees. We all know it happens all the time. This attack is a gotcha that confuses people because the agency dealt with his property.

    If Romney had never fired them, he’d be up there saying, “to show you just how widespread the illegal immigration problem is, they’ve turned up working on my own lawn – twice! The owner keeps firing them when he finds out, and new ones keep getting discovered. We really need the e-verify system.”

    Perry’s charge is false. The true charge against Romney is not that he hired illegal immigrants but that he decided not to boycott a company for hiring illegal immigrants.

    The state of Utah recently cracked down on a five-star hotel, discovering they had over 100 illegal employees. Would I boycott that hotel? No. It’s a great hotel. Would you boycott it? Would Tom Tancredo, or Joe Arpaio – both of which endorse Mitt?

    The fact that Mitt gave him a second chance is unremarkable. But to say that Mitt is fabricating the story seems disingenuous. Mitt was preparing for his 2007 Presidential run when the Globe released their first findings. If Mitt’s concern was political expediency, he would have not given the man a second chance.

    The second time, it was only one employee. The first time, it was only 3 employees. And these were people who had worked on Romney’s lawn at some point, in a rotation of however many employees the company had.

    In the debate last night, Romney explained, “We hired a lawn company to mow our lawn, and they had illegal immigrants that were working there. And when that was pointed out to us, we let them go. And we went to them and said, [Perry interrupts] So we went to the company and said, look you can’t have any illegals working on our property, I’m running for office for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals. It turns out that once again they hired someone who had falsified their documents and therefore we fired them. And let me tell you something, it is hard in this country, as an individual homeowner to know if people who are contractors working at your home, if they’ve hired people that are illegal. If I’m president, we’ll put in place an e-verify system, which you’ve opposed, to make sure we can find out whose here legally and not, and crack down on people who come here illegally.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/perry-blasts-romney-height-hypocrisy-14765881

  • bzip

    This is where Perry really got under his skin and exposed Romney for what he is.

    I guess some might make a case for Perry being petty but clearly Perry did what he needed to do – expose Romney, as well as Romney losing his cool.

    The above Romney said. ?I?m running for office, for Pete?s sake, I can?t have illegals.? – isn’t going to sit well and more so when made into a TV ad running over and over.

    That is why Romney lost last (as well as Cain).

  • http://www.whyromney.com Ryan Larsen

    why it was a matter of sincerely giving the guy a second chance. The fact he was running for office means it would have been easier for him to fire the agency. See my comment below:

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/10/18/garden-gate-attack-of/#comment-11228

  • westcoastpatriette

    and I guess I am just surprised at your strong reaction. Truly, I don’t really like the bickering, either, but living in a border state, this is a common tactic used to hurt political opponents and, contrary to your assertion that it will backfire against Perry, most of the time it works. It was used against Meg Whitman here at the last minute in her run for governor and even though she fired the long time employee after the employee confessed to her that she was illegal, the smear was successful in planting doubt that the Whitman’s knowingly employed illegals.

    Normally, I would feel disgusted toward Perry but, as I said last night, he has put up with false assumptions and allegations over the Texas Dream Act since he entered the race and I don’t see how you cannot see that as just as disgusting as what he said to Romney last night. You seem to have blinders on in that regard.

  • http://www.whyromney.com Ryan Larsen

    McCain verses Obama. Maybe not the best formula.

    I’d rather see a substantive discussion of the issues. I like Newt’s idea of 7 3-hour debates with no moderator, only a timekeeper. That would force the candidates (one on one) to go beyond cheap attacks and sound bites.

  • http://www.whyromney.com Ryan Larsen

    Perry drew first blood against Romney. Romney was saying, “come on in, the water’s fine” and then Perry suddenly unleashed attacks on Romney’s job creation record.

    That’s how it happened. No use denying it.

  • tyman

    With all of the misrepresentations Romney and Cain have made about Perry’s stance on illegal immigration, Romney really showed a crack in his mask.

    Perry made a great point that Boortz and his girl Belinda are missing: Romney was the one who went after Perry…over and over and over on the campaign trail about how soft Perry is on illegal immigration.

    Okay, if Mr. Perfect is going to make a claim like that, he’d better have the record to back it up. Then, he really showed himself when he said that he was running for office and couldn’t have illegals cutting his grass. That was priceless AND that made Perry’s point: the in-state tuition IS NOT the magnet. The magnet is the jobs and better lives illegals hope to gain when they come here. That’s what Perry meant by telling Flipper he was at the top.

    Sure, a lot of people use illegal labor. Just don’t be a hypocrite about it when you criticize someone else for being soft on illegal immigration.

    You can say all you want about how Perry didn’t look good and he looked angry, but Perry was showing passion about being misrepresented, and he let Romney hang himself.

    What happened in 1980 when Ronald Reagan got upset with the debate moderator? People cheered him.

    I’m sorry his passion came out all at once, but Perry’s been on the receiving end of some cheap shots by most of the candidates and I’m glad he showed the he isn’t laying down any more.

  • powertothepeople

    After reading your incessant defending of Mitt, I bet that if a Mitt affair became public, you would claim he was only walking to the bed to escort her from his room, slipped and fell, and it popped in by accident so we should not hold the affair against him.

    You are so full of it I bet you exhale methane.

  • gator_hoo

    You make a big deal of that issue, but it actually was knowingly by most legal standards. As I explained in another response, a parallel is the vicious dog doctrine. If a dog bites someone, the first time, the owner will not be held liable. The second time, you will, even if you honestly believe the dog won’t bite someone again, even if you take precautions against it. You may have a point that it might not be enough to establish knowingly beyond a reasonable doubt, but that is a criminal issue, and I don’t think Perry has arrested Mitt. (Notably, for civil issues, it is sufficient to establish a person committed a crime by a preponderance of the evidence, like during OJ’s civil trial for wrongful death.)

    Secondly, where is your outrage that Cain used the black rock attack against Perry? Hard to establish that was “knowingly” and frankly, that charge was more inflammatory politically than Perry’s charge, and on thinner facts.

    Third, I find it funny that you are accusing the media of helping out Perry against Mitt, who the media openly loves. Look at Jen Rubin and David Brooks;@ look at the stories of Mitt’s inevitability. The fact that you are now relying on the “media loves Perry” angle shows the weakness of your position.

    Frankly, I don’t understand the level of vitriol in this post.

  • red_oakster

    I think this may take the immigration issue off the table. Romney’s response about running for office was a screwup, much like Perry’s heartless remark in the earlier debate. Romney will not want to debate immigration again and I suspect that Perry would be very happy to move on to taxes, energy/climate change, and Romneycare.

  • izoneguy

    Here is the original article:

    Illegal immigrants toiled for governor

    For about eight years, Rosales said, he worked on and off landscaping the grounds at Romney’s home, occasionally getting a “buenos dias” from Romney or a drink of water from his wife, Ann.

    “She is very nice,” said Rosales, 49.

    About 6 miles away in Copado, a 37-year-old man who recently returned to Guatemala from the United States told a similar story, describing long days tending Romney’s 2 1/2-acre grounds.

    “They wanted that house to look really nice,” said the worker, who asked to remain anonymous. “It took a long time.”

    As Governor Mitt Romney explores a presidential bid, he has grown outspoken in his criticism of illegal immigration. But, for a decade, the governor has used a landscaping company that relies heavily on workers like these, illegal Guatemalan immigrants, to maintain the grounds surrounding his pink Colonial house on Marsh Street in Belmont.

    The Globe recently interviewed four current and former employees of Community Lawn Service with a Heart, the tiny Chelsea-based company that provides upkeep of Romney’s property. All but one said they were in the United States illegally.

    The employees told the Globe that company owner Ricardo Saenz never asked them to provide documents showing their immigration status and knew they were illegal immigrants.

    “He never asked for papers,” said Rosales, who said he had paid smugglers about $5,000 to take him across the US-Mexican border and settled in Chelsea.

    The workers said they were paid in cash at $9 to $10 an hour and sometimes worked 11-hour days.

    Romney never inquired about their status, they said.

    So, there is the backdrop. Romney has come out with a smear campaign on Perry claiming that nearly half of new jobs in Texas over the last 4 years went to illegal immigrants.

    But just as Perry said, the study has come under fire from some who claim it is based on flawed methodology

    Romney?s claim is based on a September report from the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank that advocates for lower immigration. According to the report, ?Of jobs created in Texas since 2007, 81 percent were taken by newly arrived immigrant workers (legal and illegal).? And, the report states: ?Of newly arrived immigrants who took jobs in Texas since 2007, we estimate that 50 percent (113,000) were illegal immigrants. Thus, about 40 percent of all the job growth in Texas since 2007 went to newly arrived illegal immigrants and 40 percent went to newly arrived legal immigrants.?

    But just as Perry said, the study has come under fire from some who claim it is based on flawed methodology.

    Pia Orrenius, an economist and immigration expert at the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, told the Dallas Morning News the methodology is ?misleading? because, ?[y]ou?re comparing gross inflows to net job creation. You have to compare net to net.?

    Chuck DeVore, a visiting senior fellow at the Texas Public Policy Foundation, also wrote an analysis critical of the CIS study:

    DeVore: Put simply, CIS compared a net increase in jobs in Texas over a four year period with a gross increase in employed newly arrived immigrants in Texas. This is truly an apples to oranges comparison that should be thought of in the same way as if a report claimed that Google is a larger company that Apple because its market capitalization of $162 billion exceeded Apple?s annual revenues of $100 billion.

    CIS stands by its study, but one of the study?s authors, Steven Camarota, told us if people prefer the ?net to net? figures, those are included in the CIS study as well. And those figures are much more modest than the numbers given by Romney in the debate. Since the second quarter of 2007, the employment of foreign-born immigrants in Texas increased by 150,000 compared with an increase in employment for native-born workers of 130,000. By that calculation, immigrants counted for 54 percent of the net increase ? not 81 percent.

    DeVore called that ?a more supportable contention? and an ?apples to apples comparison.?

    But not all of those immigrants were illegal immigrants. Camarota said he did not have figures on how many of that 54 percent were illegal immigrants, but he said, ?I would guess it?s less than half.? That puts the percentage of job growth taken by illegal immigrants somewhere closer to 20 percent, he said. That?s still a ?very big number,? Camarota said. But it?s a far cry from the ?nearly half? cited by Romney.

    And on Romney’s claim about Texas being a magnet for illegals by giving illegal residents in-state tuition.

    According to the Web site http://collegeforalltexans.com, which helps estimate tuition costs for students at various public schools in Texas, it would cost about $24,700 a year for a resident of Texas, whether a legal U.S. citizen or not, to attend the University of Texas at Austin. The figure includes tuition, fees, room and board and other incidental expenses. For an out-of-state student, and that includes legal U.S. residents, that figure climbs to about $47,400 a year.

    With the same variable in play except for in-state or out-of-state status, the difference is about $22,700. Added up over a four-year college career with the same rates, that’s almost $91,800 a year.

    However, Texas is not the only state that allows illegal immigrants to qualify for in-state tuition. California, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Utah, Washington and Wisconsin allow illegal residents to qualify for in-state tuition. Another dozen states have passed specific laws refusing in-state tuition for illegal immigrants.

    So, will President Mitt Romney outlaw in-state tuition for illegals?

  • jackdaniels11

    You can support a cause or a candidate if you wish.

    But don’t attack Mr. Larsen’s character. He hasn’t attacked yours.

  • acat

    Politics ain’t beanbag.

    Perry did us all a service. He pushed Mitt off his game.

    Do you think for a femtosecond that the Dems won’t hit Mitt with this?

    Mitt needs a better answer. If anyone from Team Mitt is listening (hint – Ryan, this is for you) the best answer would be to turn this into a conversation on E-Verify. “Because with E-Verify in place, this would not have been a problem for me.”

    Mew

  • powertothepeople

    You do not know me well do you?

    I would suggest “Mr Larsen” (oh boy) gets a new attack dog. You really have no bite.

  • acat

    I found it on my front door a couple days ago and have been debating about whether I want to stimulate the economy.

    In the bottom corner, under such details as “Mulch/Landscaping” and “Weekly Lawn Mowing”, I find the note “All Legal U.S. Citizens”.

    It’s as if they felt this was a good advertising point.

    My point to you, Gamecock, is that Caveat Emptor still applies. If Mitt didn’t ask, it’s his own fault. It’s on him to prove he asked and was lied to.

    Politics ain’t beanbag, and Perry had every right to “go there”.

    (I’ll ignore, for the moment, that every time Romney replied he came off as a wonk, trying to tinker with the system, not trying to replace it outright. )

    Mew

  • izoneguy

    Texas is not the only state that allows illegal immigrants to qualify for in-state tuition. California, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma, Utah, Washington and Wisconsin allow illegal residents to qualify for in-state tuition.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    has been hypocritical and duplicitous on illegal immigration, which is why the debate over in-state tuition and my defense of Perry caused be to go “far left” and now favor amnesty on all but voting rights NOW for all non-felons that have been here for more than 3 years because the de facto rule of law has been open borders and the moral case of criminality doesn’t hold for work or instate tuition under these circumstances.

    But Romney has not accused Perry of a crime in a personal attack and that is worse.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    tells us all hamburger flippers are legal?

    I favor amnesty now for all here over 3 years except re voting rights. And I’m for leaving proof of criminality to courts, not public trials in which it is impossible to prove a negative. It was a cheap personal attack.

    Plus, the story does say that Mitt did insist that the company no longer hire illegals and that a year later it turned out than employee had falsified a document that the employer was not held responsible for.

    If this is the best Perry can come up with, a personal attack of this kind, then his campaign is a dead man walking.

  • acat

    First, E-Verify would answer this for McDonalds. We would not have to ask about burger-flippers if the government would do their job, eh?

    Second, this isn’t really about the attack, although I can see why you’d want it to be. It’s about Romney’s dreadful response to it.

    Perry knocked Romney off his game. That’s a Good Thing, it’s a New Thing, and it’s something the GOP voters need to see.

    Or, do you perhaps think the Dems won’t go there?

    Mew

  • APA Guy

    This one is a biggie where Romney is concerned and needed to be addressed.

  • APA Guy

    This one is a biggie where Romney is concerned and needed to be addressed.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    never will. I hold all these schlubs to the same high standard,

  • APA Guy

    …and what’s more, the attacks by Perry have substantial merit. Just because he’s slick and seems to be a “nice guy” doesn’t exempt Romney from judgment regarding his abysmal record and policy positions.

  • westcoastpatriette

    You keep throwing out your declaration that now all law-breakers deserve amnesty and your logic is similar to when the left blames America for 9/11. Rather than supporting efforts to uphold our laws and hold illegals and the people who hire them accountable for their misdeeds, you take the easy route and excuse the guilty ones.

    What do you have to say to the millions of people who are trying to become citizens or come to this country, have waited in line, played by the rules, spent a lot of their money to do it properly and legally? How do you justify your position to them? And what about all the taxpayers who also bend over backwards to play by the rules who are being forced to tolerate and pay for all the problems caused by illegals? How do you justify your decision to give them all amnesty? Or to the millions of employers who bend over backwards to hire only people authorized to work here?

    You are thinking like a liberal. They don’t think laws apply to them.

  • Danielle Davis (ocleverone)

    It is my responsibility to ensure that anything that happens on my property is done legally and correctly.

    When I have work done, I ask for certificates of insurance binders, references, I check out the business and yes, I have asked if the workers were citizens.

    It really wasn’t the question asked it was Mitt’s response. I can’t have illegals working for me, I am running for office not I can’t have illegals working for me because it breaks the law.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    right

  • avagreen

    Even the lowbrow attempt by Romney to lie (twice I believe)about the healthcare in Texas (what would he do if HE had 1.2 million people on HIS state to deal with this problem?), immigrants that come here for…………in-state tuition, although only 1% of the college crowd is on this program.
    LOL!

    At least Perry was man enough to tell Rumney (the perpetual candidate) that he agreed with him on the border/fence problem

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    yes, it will make Mitt a better candidate. It advances Perry’s credentials not a whit.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I have defended Perry and still do think that his 11 years of great governance is a huge asset.

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/10/03/gop-can-affirm-rule-of-law-and-define-amnesty-down/

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    work to any non-felon that has been here for more than 3 years.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204346104576637310315367804.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

  • acat

    This shows Perry has a spine and some fight in him after all.

    As far as the attack goes, this story’s been around since 2006, so the surprising part to me wasn’t that Perry used it but that it rattled Mitt.

    This may have been personal, but it’s also a true story, a story tied to an issue important in the primary, and an issue that Romney has been deliberately using to hit Perry since Perry got in.

    I don’t view it as any more below-the-belt than Romney’s proxies (including Rove) distorting Perry’s positions re. Gardasil and Texas Dream Act.

    Mew

  • westcoastpatriette

    ..

  • acat

    How does someone prove they’ve been here 3 years without something akin to E-Verify, GC?

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    is that the 20+ year DE FACTO rule of law of open borders eliminates claims of betrayal. The betrayal would be to call long time residents criminals after our CONDUCT welcomed and embraced them for so many years.

    http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/10/03/gop-can-affirm-rule-of-law-and-define-amnesty-down/

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I saw Perry as more rattled than Mitt. Just me I guess.

  • acat

    Perry didn’t strike me as “rattled”.

    Romney still strikes me as either Kang or Kodos,

    Mew

  • http://www.flaliberty.org scorpio0679

    5′s on your analysis, exactly how I came away from the debate.

    http://www.redstate.com/scorpio0679/2011/10/19/michele-bachmanns-dishonesty-re-cains-9-9-9-tax-plan/

    Just posted a diary on the VAT vs. 9-9-9 as well. You’re spot on there too.

    s

  • acat

    Show me when we took border security seriously, ever. More like 100+ year open borders.

    I’m sure you see my concern with the 3-year thing – that is, how do we not have another tidal wave of illegals once it becomes apparent that we’re going to have one? Reagan’s amnesty got us swamped, and I’d rather not repeat.

    My position remains the same. First, close the border and remove the brakes on the economy. After that, let’s talk about the ratio of deportation vs. amnesty that’s appropriate.

    Mew

  • sunshinek67

    the usually unflappable Romney under intense fire and scrutiny is what is most telling about a candidate running for the highest office in the land. His creepy surreal moment when he placed his hand on Gov Perry broke debate protocol. I thought he was the more disciplined of all of the candidates. I also believe that his remark “I am running for office for Petes sake, I can’t have illegals” will boomerang. His unscripted unstable responses to the long overdue charges rings to infinity surpassing the actual attacker himself. Romney folks are spinning these gaffes and his unstatesmanship like behavior into the winds.

  • kcdude

    position on immigration but I disagree on the Romney / Perry exchange. I thought it was a gotcha from Perry but Romney blew it in his response and demeanor. He moved to Perry’s area behind the podium and placed his hand on his shoullder – it was Romney’s alpha dog type move that resulted in Perry’s justified irritation.

    I am leaning Cain because of the reasons that EE mentioned in his post today. He seems to be the one candidate who can articulate his conviction. I hope he is prepared for the gotchas on foreign policy. We know they are coming.

    Now to your postion on your Gamecocks – I am truly sorry for Marcus Lattimore and the effect his loss will have on your team. In some ways I think you will be better with Garcia gone. I hope my Commodores will put a right whuppin’ on you next year as you certainly did that to us a couple of weeks ago.

  • avagreen

    **

  • avagreen

    And, doesn’t seem to know that they are, or hopes that we, the voters, are so uninformed or awed by his BS that we don’t take notice, or are too dumb to figure out that they are?

    Hmmmm……..who else thinks this way that’s been the news for almost 3 years now?

  • avagreen

    I immediately recognized the numbers without even hearing where he got them. I’ve seen them used before over and over again.

    What Romney did was just use whatever he could use to smear Perry without even checking the sources.

    Sad, sad for a presidential candidate to be so sloppy and so willing to smear with lies. He’s using the stats of a known white-supremacist/racist site, started by the racist, John Tanton,the ?puppeteer? of the nativist movement and a man with deep racist roots.

    http://www.splcenter.org/publications/the-nativist-lobby-three-faces-of-intolerance/cis-the-independent-think-tank

    http://americasvoiceonline.org/page/content/wolves/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tanton

    http://mightyminnow.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/anti-immigrant-organizations-linked-to-racist-hate-groups/

  • avagreen

    Invading someone’s personal space like that, especially with the animosity between them at the time, was a slap in the face, and yes, was intended as an alpha male technique. Which Perry took up on it immediately.

    If I’d been a woman on stage and someone got that familiar with me, I’d slapped his face about one both palm and back of hand.

    He wasn’t about “making peace”. He was showing his arrogance and superiority by thinking this invasion of personal space was OK. Arrogance on display.

  • Flagstaff

    My current favorites, too, but it’s a long time ’til 11/2012.

    The debates are all about appearances and opinions, not really about facts and issues. No sane person believes that Cain’s 999 plan will pass exactly as he proposes it; most of us don’t think a new sales tax is a good idea at all, even if it would do some short-term good. What 999 does is prove that Cain is willing to propose something that is at least in the realm of possibility and that he recognizes the first requirement to solving a problem is to take A first step, any step, that gets the ball rolling.

    HR 3400? Maybe good, maybe not, but again it is a start. Personally, I’m not convinced that allowing health insurance policies to be sold across state lines is the panacea it’s advertised to be, but I can be convinced.

  • mtbrimstone

    After last night, it is now clear that Herman Cain may give people cause to worry when it comes to making na?ve comments as a President.

    All within the same day, he made a comment stating he would authorize the transfer of prisoners to al-Qaida, then later that he made another would have a policy prohibiting negotiations with terrorists (specifically al-Qaida), and then soon after was put in a position where he was more-or-less forced to admit he misspoke. Now, every President is human and is subject to error. But he was talking about trading U.S. prisoners to al-Qaida. So it was quite obvious from what occurred that Herman Cain did not think before he spoke.

    This is very reminiscent of our current President, who said (during July 2009) that police in Cambridge, MA “acted stupidly” when Sgt. Crowley arrested black Harvard professor Gates last week after a confrontation at the man’s home and claimed racism was a factor, but later after receiving the rest of the details told reporters he should not have described the arrest as “stupid”, since (in his own words) ?I think I unfortunately gave an impression that I was maligning the Cambridge Police Department or Sgt. Crowley specifically.? President Obama did not think before he spoke.

    What we do not need right now is a President who has the tendency to make na?ve comments. And this may be the only major gaffe of this kind for Cain during the election cycle. But if it occurs again (regardless of any apologies), Cain will give people ample cause to worry about his making na?ve comments as President.

    Here are the direct quotes from Cain before, during, and after the CNN Debate on 10/18/11 regarding negotiations with al-Qaida:

    **** Cain during an interview with Wolf Blitzer the day of the CNN Debate:

    BLITZER: Imagine if you were President ? we?re almost out of time ? uh, and there were one American soldier who?d been held for years, and the demand was, al-Qaida or some other terrorist group, you- ya gotta free everybody at Guantanamo Bay- several hundred prisoners at Guantanam- could you see yourself as President authorizing that kind of transfer?

    CAIN: I could see myself authorizing that kind of transfer. but what I would do, is I would make sure that I got all of the information, that I got all of the input, considered all of the options, and then the President has to be the President and make a judgment call. I can make that call if I had to.?

    **** Cain questioned by Anderson Cooper during the CNN debate:

    COOPER: A few hours ago you were asked by Wolf Blitzer, if al-Qaida had an American soldier in captivity and they demanded the release of everyone at Guantanamo Bay, would you release them? And you said, quote, ?I could see myself authorizing that kind of a transfer.? Can you explain?

    CAIN: The rest of the statement was quite simply you would have to consider the entire situation. But let me say this first: I would have a policy that we do not negotiate with terrorists. We have to lay that principle down first. Now, then you have to look at each individual situation and consider all the facts. The point that I made about this particular situation is that I?m sure Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had to consider a lot of things before he made that. So on the surface, I don?t think we can say he did the right thing or not. A responsible decision-maker would have considered everything.

    COOPER: But you?re saying you could ? I mean, in your words, you said that, ?I could see myself authorizing that kind of a transfer.? Isn?t that negotiating with, in this case, al-Qaida?

    CAIN: I don?t recall him ever saying that it was al-Qaida- related.

    COOPER: Yeah, he did. He said ?

    CAIN: Well, I don?t ? I ? my policy would be we cannot negotiate with terrorists. That?s where we have to start as a fundamental principle.

    **** Cain speaking to Anderson Cooper during an interview immediately following the CNN Debate:

    CAIN: I misspoke. Because I didn’t, you know, things are moving so fast, I misspoke. I would not do that, I simply would not do that.

  • HaroldHutchison

    1st choice: Mitt Romney
    2nd choice: Herman Cain

    Perry lost me when he came across as having made half-baked preparations for the Presidential campaign due to the poor debate performances and the Jeffress flap.

    Newt has too much baggage for me. He was great in his time, but his time ended after the 1998 mid-terms.

    I like a lot of what Bachmann says, but going to Jenny McCarthy-ville on Gardasil was a big down-check, and she’s also got a fair bit to learn on foreign policy, I think.

    Santorum… liked some of his stuff, but just don’t think there’s any there there.

    Huntsman… if he were running as governor of Utah, not former ambassador to China, he’d be in my top three. Right now… just not sure.

    Ultimately, I guess I find myself hoping for a Romney-Cain ticket. I think it would put the focus on the economy, I think that getting them together would deliver a substantial tax reform plan.

  • bzip

    Truly remarkable, you go with a two guys that flip-flop one of which is dishonest and the other is naive, a gaff machine and inexperienced.

    Wonder why we get the politicians that we do.

  • sunshinek67

    and Bush in the townhall debate when Gore approached Bush as he was speaking. Bush gave him a look, nodded his head then turned back to the audience member and continued with his answer. It was classic~

  • http://www.rightreality.wordpress.com andysmith

    BOTH are political opportunists
    BOTH have made a career of flip flopping
    NEITHER are as conservative as they want you to think

    With that being said, I would take Romney over Perry in a heartbeat. Perry thought he would be the de facto nominee just by getting out there saying he’s going to put America back to work, but he lacks nearly as much in the substance department as Obama does.
    Adding to that, Perry’s behavior was deplorable. I thought the only petulant child at these debates was Santorum, but Perry far exceeded him last night. Perry didn’t help himself in the eyes of undecided Republicans, and helped Obama out more than anything. Perry was frustrated and sounded like he needed a big performance, but the only thing he did was make this voter think about leaving the top of the ticket blank if he somehow manages to come back and win the nomination.
    For all the crap that the left, and quite a few of you give to Bush and Palin for sounding stupid, Perry makes both of them sound like rocket scientists.

  • http://www.rightreality.wordpress.com andysmith

    Santorum seem like the educated adult in the room. Yes, I do wonder where some of these politicians come from.

  • http://www.rightreality.wordpress.com andysmith

    was Cain’s Gitmo moment during the debate, but Perry was way out of line. You talk about debate protocol, but Romney was clearly trying to respond, and all Perry could do was try to talk over him. Perry has been lacking in substance in every debate, and has sounded like a walking bumper sticker much like Obama has, and sounded every bit as desperate as he was to get his numbers back up.
    I’m all about passion, but Perry was over the top and was just being a jerk. Perry didn’t help himself, he helped Obama. I don’t know for sure if Romney is the clear frontrunner because you have different results from several different polls, but Perry shot himself in the foot with the predator drone he wants patrolling the border.

  • http://www.rightreality.wordpress.com andysmith

    Perry didn’t sound rattled…..just angry, desperate, and downright childish.

  • acat

    and, unlike you, I’ll say that in the title.

    Santorum sounded angry.
    Bachmann sounded desperate.
    Paul sounded childish.

    Perry and Romney both seemed aggressive and defensive, depending, but only Romney ever seemed rattled, unsure of what to say next.

    Mew

  • http://www.itsaboutliberty.com IronDioPriest

    By going after Romney’s contracted lawn service (for God’s sake, I can’t even believe I have to type that), Perry really demonstrated that he is desperate and out of touch.

    People – especially conservative people – don’t like illegal immigration or the aliens that break the law.

    That said, illegal immigrants mow our lawns. They make our burritos. The put shingles on our roofs. They work on our farms. They clean our hotel rooms.

    For worse – not for better or worse, just “for worse” – illegal immigrants are people Americans encounter on a regular basis whether we want to or not. They are integrated into our service industries. Thus they are a (dirty and hypocritical) part of our lives.

    When Perry went after Romney’s lawn service on a nationally televised debate for the GOP nomination for President of the United States, millions of Americans said, “Aliens mow my lawn/make my burritos/shingled my roof/work the farm down the road/did such a nice job cleaning my hotel room… etc.

    The accusation is hollow and meaningless.

    Now, what IS MEANINGFUL was Romney’s response, essentially saying that he fired the help because he couldn’t afford to look bad in the middle of a campaign.

    Both of these a-holes are dead political meat as far as I’m concerned. If the GOP barfs out supposed front-runners (read, rich partymen) that can deliver no more inspiration and leadership than this pathetic display, then of what use is the GOP?

  • gekster

    because, for peat’s sake, I’m running for president.
    Otherwise, I would have kept useing the cheap labor, so I can hang on to the millions I got.
    I just can’t waste my money on legal Americans.
    They cost too much.

    Yea, great response.
    If it was wrong, why did he hire them the second time.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    has always been my position since 2002-3 and remains. The reason for my change re amnesty sans voting rights now is the injustice now for those that have been here for so long. We are not far apart.
    meow?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    when they don’t play USC. I pull for geek schools!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    You make coming to RS worthwhile. You make me think.

    Admission: I just love that I could find one issue after 10 years that I could move to the “left” on!

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    Erik claims to be an ?expert? on politics but all he is is a parrot of CNN who is misleading our country too. I am awe struck at all these people who are conned by Herman (Con) Cain. He has NO political experience!! He can promise the world to get into office, like he is, and everyone can just hang on to HOPING he will do what he says. Sound familiar???? The problem with his non existent experience in politics is that you can not bump what he promises with what he has proposed or voted on in the past. He?s acting like a politician though back pedaling on past statements, denying past statements like he did with Ron Paul when Paul called Cain out on him calling people who want to audit the Fed as being ?Ignorant and Stupid?. These video clips of him saying that are online and he called them ?stupid? in his book. If he gets voted in, all those people who vote for him will be in the same position as those who voted for Obama are in now.

  • powertothepeople

    and it is about time one of the Paultards admits Ron Paul equals freedom from sanity, class, Americanism, decency, intelligence, and so on.

    It is such a shame you so deny your own self worth and pride by being a Pualtard. Now don’t your tards have your own worship sites for the old coot that you do not have the need to darken legitimate sites such as this one?

  • gekster

    Second comment of the exact same thing.

    So tell me. Why does RP rail against pork all the while taking millions in pork.
    Isn’t that hypocritical.

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    What is Ron Paul wrong about? Be specific.

  • powertothepeople

    you idiots have heard the reasons thousands of times and yet you continue to serve your master of ignorance. Not too mention I value my time way too much to sit here for the hours and hours and hours it would take just to list a small percent of how many times that idiot is wrong, moronic, anti-american, retarded, and so on.

    Now shove off back to your man crush love fest and leave these discussions to those not aroused by the mere mention of the name Ron Paul.

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    Where is proof of him taking “millions in pork”? Where can i find this info? Romney is backed by Wall Street, Perry has only been in the race for 10 weeks and has double the next candidate’s amount which is Ron Paul, so Perry is getting money from some heavy hitters, Cain uhhh used to work for the Fed…give you one guess where most his money will come from. Ron Paul gets A LOT of his campaign money from Money Bombs like the one that is going on right now. It’s already over 1.1 million in one day from regular citizens as well as active duty military. He has the most money coming from active duty members than all the rest of the field combined. He also had the most back in 2008.

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    You just keep on regurgitating what the CIA bought media has fed you. Hours? AKA “I have no real proof, i just believe what the media tells me”. You’re a waste of time like so many Americans who quick to spout out hollow words with no proof of you words, let alone being able to think on your own. Quick, i think CNN is presenting another Ron Paul talking point for you to repeat but not be able to back up.

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    I’m waiting…

  • Xasteius

    And frankly, Perry’s remained quite gracious considering he’s been under attack from day one.

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    LOL!!!!!!!! If you believe in Cain!!!

  • powertothepeople

    CIA bought media. I have now heard it all. At least we now know not only are you a Paultard, you are a major buyer of tin foil.

    Do you have your eyes on the sky for those pesky black ‘copters?

    I love it when people with less than room temp IQs actually try to act smart and full of whit. Makes for some decent entertainment. At least I can expect a little entertainment out of you, do not let us down.

  • powertothepeople

    for Cain and would be the last to vote for him in the primary. But nice try there Cletus.

  • williamjameson

    guarantees but he and Bachman voted for loan guarantees for companies that export products. Very anti-constitutional and we all know 90% to 95% of businesses fail and RP wants taxpayers to pick up the bill for the failures?

    Good questions for the next debate, why RP do you support loan guarantees for exporters? Why did you vote to increase loan provisions recently if you think loan guarantees to citizens was too risky? All LP’s should think about it.

    RP Pork link, a link to the media story is there plus Fox news picked it up as did CNN. Google is your friend for RP facts.
    http://www.dailypaul.com/84716/ron-paul-leading-houstons-reps-with-most-pork-spending

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    Look up Operation Mockingbird….i even spelled it for you. I see you aren’t really into facts. So in between watching Jersey Shore or American Idol maybe you can find the time to look that up……be careful you might learn something. I’m still waiting for examples also known as facts and not “clever names” added to Paul.

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    the companies he voted for get bailed out?? I think you are reading and comprehending information incorrectly. I’m pretty sure real economists on these other candidates campaign staffs have dug up all they can on RP…..if what you just brought up had any substance…..i’m pretty sure they would’ve tried to corner him on it. Nice try though

  • powertothepeople

    as this comment from you was not that entertaining. Even other Paultards would be embarrassed by your incessant drivel.

    And a nicer soul than I provided you with one example of his BS hypocrisy. Funny you fail to respond to it and that is why we here on this site do not waste our time explaining anything to you morons, We simply point and laugh and put up all the sharp items in the room.

    Guess I can not count on your for too many laughs if you are going to “prove” the media is owned by the CIA by using Mockingbird as your proof. Gosh your parents must be so ashamed you have their last name.

  • bzip

    Someone lock Ron Paul and his turds up in the rubber room where they belong – please.

  • gekster

    I got 3,030,000 hits.
    Lets just throw out 3/4 of them for non related, duplicates, and just for fun.
    That leaves 757,500.

    Your examples.
    from:
    http://www.dailypaul.com/84716/ron-paul-leading-houstons-reps-with-most-pork-spending

    excerpt:
    WASHINGTON — Republican congressmen derided the massive $410 billion spending bill approved by the House of Representatives last week, but some like Houston-area Rep. Ron Paul contributed to its size.

    Paul, of Lake Jackson, managed to insert 22 earmarks worth $96.1 million into the bill, leading the Houston delegation, according to an analysis of more than 8,500 congressionally-mandated projects in the bill by the Houston Chronicle

    from:
    http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/12/18/ron-paul-attempts-to-pork-out-on-american-taxpayers/

    excerpt:
    Paul, who demands every earmark must be examined with absolute transparency, condemns other leaders for attaching earmarks to bills, unless the earmarks are his and go to his Texas district. Paul?s reasoning behind his past tax-raising earmarks is:
    The principle of the earmark is our [Congressional] responsibility. We?re supposed to?it?s like a tax credit. And I vote for all tax credits, no matter how silly they might seem. If I can give you any of you of your money back, I vote for it. So, if I can give my district any money back, I encourage that. But, because the budget is out of control, I haven?t voted for an appropriation in years?if ever. ?I don?t think the federal government should be doing it. But, if they?re going to allot the money, I have a responsibility to represent my people. If they say, hey, look, put in a highway for the district, I put it in. I put in all their requests, because I?m their representative.

    from:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2204751/posts
    excerpt:
    Paul, a fiscal watchdog who said he voted against the bill because he believes federal spending is out of control, acknowledged that $73 million in the bill passed by his colleagues “might be” going to his district on Texas’ Gulf Coast for things like the intra-coastal waterway, the Texas City channel and Wallisville Lake. But he was fine with that, noting that he always votes for tax credits, not matter how “silly,” to return money to the constituents who sent their tax dollars to Washington.

  • ronpaulequalsfreedom

    insults….no facts. That’s sad, you’d rather be fed “info” instead of doing research. By the way, i did answer his comment…..still waiting for yours. Mockingbird is a declassified document…..need me to break that down for you? It’s called proof. It’s scary there are people out there like you who resort to trying to belittle someone who obviously is more informed than you. Typical really, i’m sure you make your parents proud too.

  • powertothepeople

    Guess I should have told you our resident translator for Ron Paul tardism is not here yet tonight. You are going to have to wait so he can translate your moronic nonsense and tin foil conspiracies into laughable material.

    So you have plenty of time to work on coating all your walls and windows with tin foil so no one can detect the chip in your head. But just so you know, tin foil does not protect you from being kidnapped by aliens and have the rectal probe done again. You will just have to hope the CIA does not read your post “exposing” them and send one of their captured aliens at Area 51 to deal with you.

    Now I am off to watch, what was it you said I liked, American Idol and get some sleep. Hope American Idol is on tonight………..hope, hope, hope.

  • gekster

    your comment.

  • spainishirish

    I agree Perry lost his cool and it won’t serve him well, but it is hard to say anything really changed last night. Cain and Romney, in either order, were ahead before last night and remain so now. The other candidates have become also-rans but that also happened before last night.

    Nothing changed, really.

  • acat

    but no, we’re not so far apart, G.C.

    (figure you’ll appreciate this, G.C. start at the 1:40 mark)

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    thx guy

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    below

  • gekster

    I wonder if he thinks I will have forgotten by tomorrow.
    Nah.

  • barleycorn

    is acceptable whereas Rick Perry’s “display of temper” is disqualifying?

    Got it.

  • acat

    I am pleased that I have made you think.

    I am not clear why you believe you’ve moved “left”, though.

    Mew

  • californiagold

    Your attacks on Perry are humorous, but very transparent….

    Keep trying though, and try not to lose your cool.

  • californiagold

    While we already know about Romney’s hiring of illegal aliens to mow his lawn, it might make for a good journalistic effort for someone in the media to do research on the hiring policies of Burger King while Cain was in charge.

  • captkirc

    Why stop at Cain? Maybe Michelle Bachmann has had undocumented foster children. Someone really ought to look into the hiring practices of Newt’s book publisher too. Lets also check out the immigration status of the receptionists who worked in Ron Paul’s doctors office. Who need’s to win on policy and leadership when all we have to do is show that some time in the last 30 years an illegal immigrant worked for some company that was loosely tied to one of our Republican opponents.

  • runner12

    as an attack on Perry to boost Cain. Sorry GC, but I have to call it like I see it. The problem is that all you are doing is boosting Mittens, not Cain.

    I am tired of Cain and even some Perry supporters tearing each other to shreds. We are the Conservatives and should unite to take down Romney. Then we can hash it out between the two.

    We can disagree with one another and even critique the other candidates’ policies or plans. But to assert that Perry falsely accused someone of a crime or saying that Cain is “nuts” or stupid is taking things way too far.

    Ironically, in the debate last night Cain and Perry did a nice job of disagreeing with one another respectfully and supporting one another’s ideas when they DID agree. I think we should follow their example.

    I say non-Romney candidate supporters unite! Let ensure that we will NOT end up with McCain Part Deaux.

  • gekster

    You can’t hold up, you’re gone.
    We are vetting them now.
    Oh, wait, lets do it when the first primary comes up.
    Best to wait till the last minute..

  • californiagold

    It was fair game for the opponents of Perry to raise the issue of in state tuition in Texas. But it’s also fair game to raise the issue of hypocrisy among those candidates who might have used the services of illegals.

    We already know that Romney had illegal aliens mow his lawn for over a year. What we don’t know are Herman Cain’s hiring practices while he was in charge of Burger King. Maybe Michele Bachmann will let us know in the next debate.

  • captkirc

    I think this 2006 Boston Globe inspired hit job is more comparable to the Washington post hit job on Perry about the hunting ranch. It has nothing to do with policy or character. In both cases, the liberal media is trying to smear a Republican with an extremely weak guilt by association hit piece hoping that their gullible readers draw conclusions not supported by the facts. That a fellow Republican would then take this media smear and repeat it as gospel during a nationally televised debate really bothers me.

    More important than my delicate sensibilities being offended though, is that should Romney become the nominee, Perry will have done Obama’s dirty work for him by bringing this up. Perry seemed to be universally derided by Frank Luntz focus group tonight’s Hannity over this issue. Romney looked pretty terrible on stage in dealing with it too. Obama’s people are probably loving the fact that this story which paints both Romney and Perry in a negative light is getting a good amount of media coverage without being tied to the Obama campaign.

  • center77

    that may of worked for the first time he got caught, but then they worked for him for a year after that. You mean after watching the Latino’s cleaning his house for a year he did not remember that they may be here illegally. I do not think so, and Romney has done all he can to destroy Perry, all I can say is a man who lives in a glass house should not throw stones, or in Cains Case talk about Rocks.

  • gjohnson

    Mittney was the one who lost his cool, and at one point he even put his hand on Perry. He got called out by Perry on an story that matters. You must have had your head under a rock during the debate or you are a Mittney supporter. Romney found out illegals were working on his lawn. So, he told the company that he was “RUNNING FOR OFFICE”, and that kind of thing isn’t kosher. What debate were you watching anyways?

  • gjohnson

    absolutely agree!

  • gjohnson

    what freakin debate did you people watch? When exactly did Perry lose his cool? Mittney was acting like Obama basically telling people to shutup when he talks. Come on man!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    for more than 3 years is defined in today’s terms as moving left.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Hope he doesn’t find out about my old Brazillian girlfriend with the VISA problem and lose his cool with me!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I’ll probably be leaning to Cain w/i 36 hours, taking a sabbatical from campaign op-eds for a time, get back to issues writing esp on the poverty of the great recession, and prepare to hold my nose and vote GOP over OBama in 13 months.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    nt

  • acat

    Sloganeering at the bumper-sticker level “Deport ‘em all, let Calderon sort ‘em out” … despite the complexity of the issue.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    him say that he would not seek out illegals but would only deport them when identified by authorities when law enforcement came in contact with them.

    But my position before the column a few weeks ago, since 911 had been enforce existing laws, pass e-verify etc; build the fence; and then grant non-voting amnesty to non-felons that had been here 3 years.

    The Perry in-state tuition debate and other issues here in GA caused me to see all of these punishment of illegals laws as wrong given that we had let them in for over 15-20 years and establish roots.

    I explained it in detail in my column that I posted weeks aho and in comments above. Read past the title…smile

  • acat

    I will accept that Tancredo may have gotten a bad rap, however he is commonly cited by the bumper-sticker debaters.

    Mew

  • thisisme7

    I am sick of people who did not watch the debate, comment on the debate like they watched it! Romney was the loser who lost his “cool.” Romney whined, grabbed Perry in attempts to intimidate him (it failed), and Romney really needs to learn to take criticism if he wants to be president. And Cain was definitely a loser in the debate, his 999 plan is now outed by all fiscal conservatives as a horrible plan (no, people that are biased to Cain do not get to decide that the plan is good, that’s not how truth works).

    This whole thing is ridiculous, I’m sick of issues and results and a proven record of getting the job done not being what people vote on but rather headlines and soundbites, and whether or not a candidate is a good debater/speaker (clearly they’ve never seen Rick Perry speak at any time except the debates). Goodbye America, you had a good run but both sides have lost it, and no, Libertarians are not the answer either! The answer is a true, jobs creating, patriotic conservative: Rick Perry. I’m voting for him either way, I will not waste my vote for Obama, or the Obama-lites like Romney, Cain, et. al.

  • gjohnson

    Sorry man, but if your ex is here illegally, she’s here illegally. No round about way of saying it. Illegal.

  • beach91

    Yes, I agree completely!

    Disclosure: I am and have always been for Perry.

  • beach91

    Why the change?? Enquiry minds want to know.

  • sunshinek67

    that bit than it is about the presumptive frontrunner who is heralded as the most disciplined competent candidate on the stage running for the highest office in the land.

    Screaming “Andersonnnnn” for help in controlling a situation does not bode well for a commander-in-chief candidate. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals” is a mask unveiled.

    Never mind the fact that Perry had been a merciless target for a solid month of debates, like the elephant that never forgot the abusive trainer and then one day…STOMP!

  • redlinedrummer

    Perry is Southern Baptist and for that fact alone i cannot vote for him. Southern Baptist are not Christians!!!!!

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    .

  • pttx333

    …

  • http://www.hakubi.us/ Neil Stevens

    ..

  • onemovoter

    My daughter acts more grown up than that person.

    We can disagree without name calling and insults. Those that can’t, I’m glad to see, are thrown out.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Ha!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    and that I praised him a few weeks ago after the in-state tuition controversy which occasioned my amnesty sans voting rights epiphany. Have you read this?

    http://www.examiner.com/law-politics-in-atlanta/gop-can-affirm-rule-of-law-and-define-amnesty-down

    also at Redstate on my diary

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    I still lean to Cain and even more enthusiastically since he tweaked 9-9-9 to 9-0-9 for the poor.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    2 weeks ago and defended him on in-state tuition. No candidate owns this rooster. I truly loathe the kind of personal attack Perry visited upon Mitt, but I’m cool with Perry overall. He is my 2nd choice as of a few minutes ago! smile

  • williamjameson

    Seriously, your the one with comprehension issues and you don’t know all the RP facts. RP supports gov back loans and that’s a fact, in fact any failed company shall be backed thanks to RP. The substance is there, denial is your coping mechanism.

    Support RP if you want, he’s likeable in many ways but he’s just like the rest of them. RP is a politician which also means he’s a liar and a sellout.

    http://archive.redstate.com/stories/the_parties/republicans/the_ron_paul_revolution_eats_its_own

    http://www.redstate.com/redhot/2009/03/11/ron-paul-fiscal-conservative/

    http://www.redstate.com/jeffdunetz/2010/04/14/the-hypocrisy-of-congressman-ron-paul/

    RP isn’t targeted by other campaign staffs because he hasn’t become number 2 or 3.

  • williamjameson

    they will only pay 9% sales tax. Cain is no establishment guy. The small issues aren’t ras relevant though I do agree Perry would be a better choice than RinoRomney.