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Rand Paul’s welcome Fourth Amendment dronings in plain sight

Sen. Paul (R-KY) introduces needed bill to limit use of unmanned military planes by domestic law enforcement

The constitutionally informed should have no problem when the Commander-in-Chief commands those for whom he is chief to kill Bin Ladens in Pakistan with Navy Seals on the ground or  even American citizen al-Harethis levying war against their own country in Yemen with un-manned drone aircraft. The President has broad, inherent chief executive power to repel the enemies of America, no matter where located, and even in the absence of specific congressional authorization much less a formal declaration of war against a specific nation. In the case of the War on Terror, both the current and former presidents that have served since September 11, 2001 have had the added benefit of the Authorization for the Use of Military Force bill passed by a bi-partisan House and Senate.

But much different rules apply to domestic law enforcement across the Fruited Plain where the U.S. Constitution protects Liberty writ large via a government limited to only reasonable searches and seizures:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Kentucky’s junior Senator Rand Paul understands that even a non-living constitution applies to new technology, and, just in case a President (that issues edicts making illegal aliens legal, even after the co-equal legislative branch rejects such legal changes) doesn’t understand the limits of his power, he has introduced A Bill (S. 3287):

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) on Tuesday introduced the Preserving Freedom from Unwarranted Surveillance Act, which would require the government to get a warrant before using aerial drones to surveil U.S. citizens.

More broadly, Paul’s bill is aimed at preventing “unwarranted governmental intrusion” through the use of drones, according to the lawmaker.

“Like other tools used to collect information in law enforcement, in order to use drones a warrant needs to be issued,” Paul said Tuesday. “Americans going about their everyday lives should not be treated like criminals or terrorists and have their rights infringed upon by military tactics.”

[The bill] would require the government to obtain a warrant to use drones with the exception of patrolling national borders, when drones are needed to prevent “imminent danger to life” or when there are risks of a terrorist attack.

The bill would also give Americans the ability to sue the government for violating the act. And, it would prohibit evidence collected with warrant-less drone surveillance from being used as evidence in court.

DeVine Law has been concerned about the lack of any federal (or state legislation for that matter) legislation specifically limiting the use of drone aircraft within the borders of the United States for several months after reports of various governments’ use or contemplated use of the war weapon in the “War on Drugs” or other domestic crimes.

Senator Paul understands the difference between real wars in which the “warrants” for searches, seizures (including killings) are passed in the halls of Congress and signed by a President who serves as judge and jury for those that he determines to be enemies of the state; and faux wars labeled as such to fool the public into thinking a solution to a problem has been fashioned in Washington, D.C., thus earning re-election for those that voted aye to take the money of the 1% to hire government employees in perpetuity, with union dues deducted and sent to the Democratic Party.

The Fourth Amendment is not the First Amendment. It does not, of course, say that Congress shall make no law in the area of law enforcement as it does with respect to abridgments of the press, speech, and the free exercise of religion. Rather, it essentially invites the continued application of Common Law brilliance on a case-by-case basis in the courts to determine what is “reasonable” in the absence of statutory limits, and to temper the parameters that legislatures may set for police action.

Search and seizure law jurisprudence long ago carved out a “plain sight” exception (and others including exigent circumstances) to the warrant rule. If a police officer walking his beat witnesses a crime taking place, he may act to search and seize evidence and have it be admitted into court for the purpose of obtaining a conviction. This concept applies to stationary cameras in public places and should also apply to non-stationary cameras on drones, but that is only the beginning of the inquiry.

Stationary cameras don’t annoy us at backyard bar-be-ques, hence the need to restrict where they may fly, and not just impose an exclusionary rule. We the People should be mostly concerned with being denied our liberty by being put in jail, but we think that federal, state and local governments should be restricted in the use of air borne spies even if they don’t seek indictments.

Yes, district attorneys should be able to use evidence gathered in plain sight, even by drones, but we favor more specific restrictions on just exactly what altitudes from which they may plainly sight potential suspects. We hope the amendment process will add to the utility of an already acceptable restriction on big government from our tea partier favorite doctor from the Bluegrass State.

Mike DeVine

“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Atlanta Law & Politics columnist –  Examiner.com

Editor of  Hillbilly Politics and Co-Founder and Editor of Political Daily

Charlotte Observer and Atlanta Journal-Constitution op-eds archived at Townhall.com.

COMMENTS

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    is using drones to take pictures of cars on the interstate and then give them tickets. (I got this from several oral sources)

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    reminding.

  • APA Guy

    Rec’d with pleasure, my friend.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    go buy one and shoot it down (I did win two turkey shoots as a teen with borrowed rifles…just saying).

  • George Neitz

    I would shoot at one in my backyard also but I don’t think the average handgun or rifle is powerful enough to fatally damage a drone.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    bang

  • Tbone

    Speed and stop light cameras? Parsing of all electronic transmissions for key words?

  • http://www4.webng.com/rickbull/lostlucky/ rickbull

    that way you don’t have to worry about a bullet coming down on top of someone’s head (and you don’t have to worry as much about accuracy–just point a shoot).

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    vroom!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    the purpose of monitoring for emergency response. And I know its a complicated area that is maybe impossible to bifurcate. Obviously, if a parking lot camera captures images of a murderer in the act, I want that to be able to be entered as evidence. Still thinking.

    I do not favor the use of cameras for tax collection at stop signs and red lights.

    more later

  • http://www4.webng.com/rickbull/lostlucky/ rickbull

    KABOOM!

  • checkmate2012

    farms too supposedly watching for cow dung in creeks! What’s next? I so no to drones for any purpose except for border control, no matter the altitiude.

    Enough is enough with our police state and erosion of our freedoms. That goes for red light camera’s too.

    Most businesses have security camera’s and if the cops get ahold of them to solve a case, fine. But no more police cameras. Can you say “Minority Report”? Next it’ll be well they looked suspicious, like they wanted to commit a crime so we pre-arrested the suspect.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    He has tried to get me to the target range numerous times. But I’m an old chicken averse to new tricks (apologies to the Dawgs of Georgia).

    I may just shoot the drone a bird!

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    we have work to do. I think he can finesse the politics of this re innocent young people with true prosecutorial discretion but he must promise to repeal the order and void work permits.

  • avgjo

    I know under the ‘conservative’ Bobby Jindal, there has been a concerted effort to get citizens of this state to inform on each other if they see littering. Signs everywhere. Stalin would be proud.

    That’s why I keep telling people this guy’s not all he’s made up to be at the national level. Between his sleazy antics in ethics ‘reform’ and his support of the redistributionist scheme known as the Stelly plan, he’s not quite who everyone thinks.

  • Dave_A

    Something that has been going on for a long, long time?

  • Dave_A

    UAVs should be legally equivalent to a manned LEO aircraft – helicopter or fixed-wing…

    If it’s legal for the police to give you a traffic ticket based on watching your car from a Bell JetRanger (And it is, and they do in many parts of the country) then it should be legal to use a UAV for the same…

    There is no functional difference between a drone and a manned aircraft, other than cost-to-operate.

    Thus, there is no need for ‘new law’ here – just apply the existing law to LEO aircraft, to unmanned ones…

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    but It is cheaper, so more incentive to farm the public for revenues.

  • Dave_A

    Since you use the term ‘farm the public for revenues’?

  • Dave_A

    And no, you won’t be able to claim ‘self defense’, either (no threat to your person from an unarmed aircraft)…

    Plus there’s the whole deal with idiots shooting into the sky & hitting lower-flying civil aircraft, and so on…

    Since I tend to be ‘up there’, the I’ll-shoot-it-down train of thought bothers me quite a bit…

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    we can play this game all day. I have often heard your line of reasoning on the part of some conservatives who seem to be of the type who think that police, or the military, or the CIA, or any other enforcement part of government can do no wrong and never abuse their authority.

    Much of the time spent by police forces is not directed toward crime enforcement, or to responding. Much of it is spent on raising revenues, Speed traps, ticket Quotas etc. To collect and serve is the nickname. And the enforcement is highly selective. In my area for instance. I NEVER, EVER see police pulling over an overloaded speeding Pickup truck full of day workers belching blue smoke from it’s worn out cylinder rings. Why? because those are likely illegals and they have no money anyway. No use wasting their time and all the paperwork problems.

    I am not anti law enforcement, but I have seen LOTS of abuse, and organized theft from that area in the past.

  • acat

    If you don’t want to get shot down, Dave_A, I suggest you maintain a higher altitude, or a higher state of awareness that you are, in fact, overflying private property.

    Mew

  • aesthete

    “Are you against better law enforcement?”

    It’s what they asked in the UK when they put cameras on everything.

    The dirty truth is, some things take precedence over a police officer or a serviceman’s life and/or comfort, or the efficacy and discretionary power of law enforcement, the legal system, and the military. The reason that LEO and serviceman are considered honorable jobs is because, at the end of the day, these people are expected to die if need be in defense of our laws and republic.

    A republic made for the citizen and served by police and the military, not an autocracy made for the police and military, and served by citizens.

  • acat

    I’ve driven the I-10 from New Orleans to Mobile several times .. it’s relatively straight and wide, there’s no technical reason for some of the artificially low speed limits… but there are revenue-generating reasons.

    Mew

    p.s. Yes, they do look for out-of-state plates.

  • acat

    Less than 1″ in diameter, moving target, medium range at best.

    If you can hit it, you’re a better shot than I….

    Mew

    p.s. The correct weapon to use would be a paint-ball gun… Demonstrates lack of intent to harm the drone, just to get it to go away.

  • Dave_A

    This seems to be one of the more common misconceptions on the issue, largely because most with an opinion aren’t pilots…

    The air over your property is PUBLIC – just like the sidewalks & streets around it…

    As a plain old private citizen, I’m legally entitled to fly over private property at 500′ AGL or higher (raises to 1200′ AGL over a structure), and you have no legal right to impede me.

    If I want to look out my canopy & see whatever I can see, I can legally do that too.

    THIS IS WHY THE POLICE CAN USE AIRCRAFT WITHOUT A WARRANT – because they are in a public place, that the general public has access to…

    And thus everything a policeman sees from an aircraft operating within civilian airspace limitations, is legally ‘plain view’ – no different than watching from a police car parked on the street…

    The same should (and will) apply to drones…

    P.S. I can’t believe you didn’t know civilian pilots have the right to overfly private property unimpeded… You own the land, not the airspace over it…

  • http://impudent.edublogs.org/ kyle8

    Speed limit jumps from 65 to 55 or 50 then back again for no apparent reason on long stretches or rural road.

  • runner12

    Kudos to Rand Paul for introducing this bill. Our Constitution should not fly out the window because technology has evolved.

  • acat

    Several buildings of over 50 stories downtown were built in leased airspace. The ground under them is still owned by one rail line or another, the lease is renewed every so often, the building is clearly in the airspace you claim is public.

    At a guess, what’s going on is that Joe Citizen hasn’t seen a general reason to enforce his rights to his airspace before… Bear in mind that this could change if Joe Citizen starts feeling differently.

    Mew

  • http://www4.webng.com/rickbull/lostlucky/ rickbull

    Can’t say I didn’t try.

  • Dave_A

    FAR minimums are 500AGL over open ground, 1000′ above the highest obstacle (includes structures) in a ‘congested’ area (eg, Chicago)… Now, Chicago airspace is Class-B (thanks to 2 really huge commercial airports – MDW and ORD) – and thus regulated to hell & back by the Feds – but none of those building owners actually *own* the air over their buildings once you get into the FAA’s domain…

    The fact is, there is a specific region of airspace (which happens to be where all civil aircraft – including LEO aircraft – operate) that is legally mandated as public…

    The reasoning for this is obvious – the practicality of allowing each person to ‘own’ the air over their property would make air navigation absurdly complex (or restrict aircraft to flying above public roads)….

    And as long as the airspace is public, the police can operate in it, just like they can in public places on the ground…

    This isn’t new – this has been seetled in court years ago, the first time a cop grabbed some binos & jumped in an airplane….

    The only thing drones change, is that it’s cheaper to fly an RC plane by computer, than to pay a pilot & servicing costs for a manned police plane….

  • acat

    We’ve seen that before as well – the cost of catching speeders dropped when radar and lidar became commonly available, and in some municipalities, there was sufficient push-back to *heavily* regulate the use of radar and lidar, not to mention some rather .. unique .. legal defenses. (the urban legend of the Heisenberg Principle defense comes to mind … along with the more commonplace (but equally effective) “How long ago was the unit re-calibrated and re-certified?” defense…)

    We will see this with drones as well. The push-back won’t be uniform, but it will happen, and I welcome Rand Paul’s attempt to get it uniform right at the start so we don’t end up with yet another patchwork.

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    finger

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    and revisit current law covering existing manned aircraft, inho. Of course, if the bill doesn’t pass, King Obama could issue an edict.

    A better amendment might be to restrict the number of aircraft allowed to be in the skies and to require that they fly at higher altitudes.

    Also, while yes, they are aircraft like manned aircraft, they are also much smaller and so are susecpible to use in more surreptitious ways that are better able to invade privacy.

    Yes, I stated much of what you have stated in my blog, albeit with fewer words with respect to the plain view doctrine, but I do think its best to make clear what we mean by plain view with respect to drones and to limit what plain views they may take for the purpose of discovering suspects etc.

    That courts have ruled is fine, but on most of these issues, Congress and states can limit what the police can do even further and I would like to hear the debate on that.

    But you make good points as usual Dave.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    a game to pay for government employees salaries with an incentive to convict; rather than taxing people what is required to maintain the efficient number of police etc.

  • earlgrey

    Before our county’s fiscal year end. I know it sounds paranoid, but it was weird. I saw 4 cars pulled over in one afternoon, including a twofer.

  • westcoastpatriette

    that’s wise… :)

  • acat

    Think you could draft something similarly diabolical, print it out in 1″ type, and place it around your property?

    Get it right and you could take it all the way to the major leagues…

    Mew

  • westcoastpatriette

    at twenty intersections throughout the city. The fines are outrageous and they make them so difficult to challenge that most people pay rather than fight them. ($490. for not coming to a complete stop on a right turn.) They have been controversial since they were first installed in 2006 and most people want them gone.

  • Dave_A

    WI and WA, on the freeway, the police just sit there and let traffic go by at 10mph over…. Stay at 10+-or-under, don’t talk on your phone, and wear your seatbelt – and you’ll never get stopped…

    I can think of one ‘notorious speed trap’, and it’s a 30mph main-drag of a 3-bar/half-horse town that happens to sit at the back-gate of a major military installation (Roy, WA)…

  • acat

    Try it with Illinois tags and a Chicago Bears bumper sticker.

    Mew

  • avgjo

    This is a good comment.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    cocky

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    cockyness

  • http://MichaelHarrington.org Michael Harrington

    There is an ease to make satelites with very high quality lenses. Space is getting far cheaper to reach now.

    You can put a good Satelite in space for the (flight cost) price of a Cesna, and it does not break down

    The problem is NOT the tool.

    The problem is the user. Make it a hundred year felony to misuse (and no parole either!), set standards.

    I drive for a living. I can name ten cities with traps and ten counties with traps.

    Yes they are traps. Not just well enforced… these are regions with signs obsured occassionally by trees whipping around, bad curves, sudden drops of twenty miles an hour, cops everywhere behind premade ambush sites, radar cameras, school zones stretched impossible long, year long contruction on a single pothole…

    I have seen all the crap.

    You can’t stop stupid nor can you stop evil, but you can reduce them out of Government when you find them.

  • funwithknives

    1) I live adjacent to Livonia, Michigan a city widely recognized as the most speed-trap-happy city in these United States. They’re everywhere but strangely enough tend to concentrate in the northern half {5 to 8 Mile Roads} where the money is. Hard to imagine I know , but seeing is believing.

    2) Insofar as a drone being likened to ‘a cop in a plane with binoculars’ , please look into what is being advanced in FLIR and CCTV technologies presently.
    Google “Gorgon Stare” or “Arthur’ on defense sites such as Av. Week/D T I . Then decide for yourself if our laws shouldn’t be ‘brushed up’ some.
    The Technology concerning this science is growing almost monthly.
    Kudos to Senator Paul for bringing this subject up.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    and amen

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    for a debate/discussion to not only consider how current law law applies to the new technology, but also how the introduction of the new technology changes how the overall law might need to re changed.

    This whole issue has opened up my mind to re-looking at stationary cameras and their use in automatic traffic law enforcement. I don’t want to a society that allows a machine to raise taxes by filming cars that don’t come to a”complete” stop at a stop sign, with no reasonable man standard to apply by a reasonable man on the beat or in a squad car.

  • acat

    had congress created a national framework around using airplanes for traffic ticketing .. or on radar/lidar enforcement .. or on any number of other “new technology” enforcement methods rather than allowing various states and munis to develop the current crazy-quilt patchwork we’d be better off as a country?

    Mew

  • funwithknives

    correct an error in Point #2:
    The second system is labeled “Argus”, not ‘Arthur’.

    I hang my head and ask for forebearance……….

  • acat

    scorpion-stare.

    Mew

    * that’s a Charlie Stross reference, by the way

  • Dave_A

    My beef with the Junior Ronulan on this one, is the assault on the ‘plain view’ doctrine, more than a love of airborne speed-enforcement…

    I’d put limiting how states enforce traffic laws in the same category (if not beyond) as the 55mph speed-limit and the 0.08 DUI limit…

    Leaning towards ‘beyond, and exceeding enumerated powers’ because it goes beyond compelling the enactment of a law, to dictating methods of enforcement – which Congress normally can’t do….

    So far, the Supreme Court has shown itself quite capable of serving as the arbitrator of what is and is not legal for police to use in investigations… Congress needs to stay out of that realm….

    I have no doubt that both Pauls would love nothing more than for it to be absolutely illegal for police to use observation from aircraft of any kind without a nearly-impossible-to-get warrant… However, that serves no one’s interest… But that’s because ol’ Ron thinks the police are preparing to declare war on ‘us’ (and by ‘us’ he means himself and like-minded followers) – as evidenced by his identical logic applied to opposing border fencing (something I agree with him on in fact, but not in motivation/reasoning)….

    The present law (plain view is plain view – air or ground, but no thermal imaging or other wall-penetrating tech) should hold in that regard….

  • Dave_A

    In Afghanistan. Don’t really need to google ‘em

    We used FLIR, thermals (even better), and so on extensively… I had a very nice selectable CCTV/thermal-equipped robot ontop of my truck – that packed a 50cal machine gun (CROWS II)… Also had this very nice blimp over our base, with very impressive visual observation capabilities, that I won’t talk about any further here (OPSEC)….

    However, the key things to remember here are:

    1) Just because a given airframe has certain things in the military, doesn’t mean that the law-enforcement version will have them.

    For example, the Bell 206 JetRanger is presently deployed as both a military and law-enforcement helicopter (the very OMGTBBQ world-is-ending thing Paul is ranting about)….

    The OH-58 (Military version) has mast-mounted long-range FLIR, laser-ranging, and can carry a combination of 500 rds 50cal, up to 4 hellfire missiles, and up to 14 2.75″ dumbfire rockets…

    The police version (Bell 206 with one of several law-enforcement packages) can equip a variety of camera systems, but NO weapons of any kind save for personal firearms carried by the aircrew….

    Similarly, a police UAV could logically be based on a Predator airframe – but without weapons or thermal-imaging – just a regular day/night camera instead (this would also make the UAV much cheaper, and lighter – providing better/more economical flight performance)…

    2) The Supreme Court has already ruled that a warrant IS REQUIRED if the police are using wall-penetrating imaging technology. Based on a case involving cops in a car, with a commercially available thermal camera, looking for weed-grows….

  • acat

    Also, your “enumerated powers” argument conflicts with the recognized jurisdiction of the FAA to regulate airspaces under the commerce clause. You can either argue for dismantling the FAA and replacing it with a patchwork of State agencies, or you can acknowledge that yes, Rand Paul has a point.

    Mew

    p.s. ol’ Ron is nuts .. but is also retiring.

  • funwithknives

    differences are between military and civilian sensors.

    Point one: the costs are always going to come down until it’s Economically Feasible. {Moore’s law?} If/when this occurs SCOTUS won’t be able to stop it, in time. The lag between filing a suit and ruling takes a while and what happens in the meantime?

    Point two:
    a) Thank You for your service. To the ‘nth’ power.
    b) having said that , you may have been using FLIR and such in a chopper, but Gorgon Stare is a whole ‘nother ball of wax. It provides a Cinerama -like view to the operator of the drone and can be selectively shifted for area-views{ Focusability} within it’s field of view, out to horizon levels, but still mantaining the big picture. All in real-time.
    Argus combines this with I R to a definition as yet not releaseable to the public.{That ‘Classified’ Thing}

    Point three: I do not trust either side{ Red/Blue},to leave this technology alone. Our country’s history is rife with ‘mistakes’, officials making their own exceptions, and so-called expediencies.

    When you ask a TSA agent what law says you have to present ID to fly, they do not tell you becaiuse it is Not to be Uttered. {Secrecy laws}
    The President has to power to designate terrorist organizations.I’ve always had a big problem with that and suppose I always will.
    I’m just not that trusting………
    It is not unknown for the FBI to issue alerts to agents about patriots and their ‘tells’. One of those is simply carrying a Constitution. Another is carrying/possessing FIJA literature. GWB Era., noted by the 2nd Amend. Foundation.
    I have Witnessed Local P D depts. taking down Lic. numbers in parking lots at public patriot/costitutionalists meetings. Went to the bosses and got nothing for an answer,ever, as to who authorized it.

    Border security for this stuff? No problem,here. Inside the borders, even a chance? As much as I dislike ‘additional’ laws, for this restriction I have no problems at all.
    Who was it that said .”..Trust, but Verify?”
    How about “…Trust, but say No, implicitly”?

    BTW ,I do read your posts, and like ‘vlad’ , ‘citizenkh’, ‘Ausonious’, etc., listen and learn from them.
    Till next time……..

  • http://MichaelHarrington.org Michael Harrington

    We need to update the laws with regard to man, not machine.

    A gun is a tool
    A drone is a tool
    A bayonet is a tool
    A IR/Low Light HUD is a tool

    Do not blame the tools.

    One law I am considering for Oregon is ‘The law of extremes’. This law would use real math to consider if a city was a trap, and if determining it is a trap then tell it all money after a certain amount goes to the State (also a mechanism where if the State police are designated doing a trap the officers involved are fired and placed in a do not hire list)

    To put it simply for people the level of deviation from the norm would indicate such cities, counties, and even State troopers.

    The only aspect needing monitorng is to remove red light camera tickets from the whole.

  • acat

    One doesn’t just wheel a plasma welding rig into a 1970s vintage metal shop and say “have at it, boys!”.

    The point I’ve been trying to make is that we’d be better off with one consistent set of rules nationwide … not “Oregon does it this way” and “Illinois does it that way” …

    Which reminds me .. for purposes of your law, would the automated lidar/camera rig the Illinois Highway Department is now using to mail tickets to the registered owners of vehicles speeding in a construction zone a “red light camera” for your purposes?

    Mew

    Go read page 3

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Nomo

  • Dave_A

    Again, FLIR is pretty well known… I’ve seen the sort of tech you describe with ‘gorgon stare’ in use, btw…

    The Supreme Court HAS ALREADY RULED on the use of aided-vision technology without a warrant…

    The line, is when the tech in question can see ‘into’ private spaces (as thermal imaging can). Weather the thermal camera is in a cop’s hands, or is a panoramic device used by a drone-operator, the use of such devices to observe locations that are considered ‘not in plain view’ if the observer were using human eyes, is prohibited without a warrant.

    However, public places remain public (And plain-viewable) after dark, so aided-vision is allowed when observing those sorts of locations…

    As it should be…

    Again, the only thing drones do, is make it cheaper to use aircraft in law enforcement… They don’t let the police see anything they can’t see now… The ‘Gorgon Stare’ type tech could just as easily be mounted to a manned aircraft, to relay info to a ground observer…

    Personally, I’d rather have my local LEOs reduce their manned air-wing (get rid of the fixed-wing birds and all but a few of the helicopters) and replace the ‘lost’ aircraft with drones… Better on the local budget… Keep a helicopter or two for SAR (drones can’t do the ‘R’ part) and to give SWAT a lift…

    But for just following a chase, airborne patrol, or other command-and-control use… By all means, go save the money and go drone…

  • http://MichaelHarrington.org Michael Harrington

    Red light means red light. I drive for a living… Semi-Truck

    There are area’s where people just don’t care about red lights. I have seen it… The left lane for instance will just keep going… 4 cars after the light has changed red!!!

    Speed traps however are different. They are designed to increase the odds of someone doing a behavior which will earn them a ticket.

    I have driven through a town (at the wrong time) with a school zone 5 miles long and a speed limit of 10mph, with at least 10 crosswalk (all manned by volunteers mind you). That town is fail.

    I have been through countless regions where I can tell you THERE IS A COP THERE. Marion County in Oregon, Certain parts of I-5 in California (North of Redding is one)

    Tools will always require training. Even the first spear user was not fully trained in the use of spears. Even now people have issues with a simple fire running amok.

    No I am specifically targeting behavior.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    not completely stopping at stop signs alone.

    No one is suggesting that reckless violations that threaten lives not be prosecuted.

  • funwithknives

    It does not mean in any historical context, every CLEO is gonna follow the rulings.
    Warrants are executed in error. SWAT teams get addresses wrong, with horrendous results. More than occaisional media reports inform us of self-appointed Uniformed/Badged Aribiters of Law who make it up as they go along. Often, doing it wrong/illegally for years at a time.
    Your above response addressed none of this, even though I brought it up in my own crude fashion.

    SCOTUS Ruling/SCHMOTUS Ruling, I want it to be enshrined in Written Law. Plain language , without Various AG’s “interpreting” it.

    Is That So Wrong…?

  • acat

    You know they’re not going to stay on construction sites forever… I’m thinking the next generation will get merged with red-light cameras

    I understand that you’re talking about the behavior of the police, specifically their less-than-ethical decisions regarding speed traps.

    The problem is, the only way to fix this is to take it up a level .. and yet you don’t seem to like that Rand Paul is trying to do just that…

    Mew

  • tnfriendofcoal101368

    Rand Paul is correct. The founders having lived through a police state where agents of the Government where able to seize their property or invade their privacy or take their money at mere whims, all in the name of their King, decided this was not a country they wanted. They invested treasure and blood in the name of liberty and won a new country. Having won, they wrote a Constitution which would define the role of government in the lives of the people governed. Everytime we allow the government to seize rights inherent in the Constitution, we dishonor ourselves, the Founders and the sacrifices of the many sense. If the government wishes to tap my phone, bug my house, spy on me with drones, I am fine with all of that. They need merely go to court and convince a judge as to the reason why. Enforcing the law does not mean crapping all over the rule of law.

  • http://MichaelHarrington.org Michael Harrington

    We don’t charge the gun with murder, we charge the shooter. Most people with guns do not shoot others in the United States.

    Nor do we, Conservatives, accept the idea of regulating guns to the death to prevent a drug dealer from supposedly being able to get a gun.

    The same concept applies.

    Do not blame the gun, the drone, the camera, the satellite, the car, or the laser.

    Instead we need clear boundaries which no one may cross regardless of the technology.

    Examples:

    Thou shall not record activities of people in general unless under investigation.
    Thou shall not data mine individuals
    Thou shall not exceed the State median for tickets times X multiplier
    Thou shall not reduce construction zone speeds to such slow speeds that motorists feel the need to speed to get to work on time (especially in Illinois where the barriers are the thickest in the nation, and they slow you guys down SO DAMNED MUCH!!!!)
    Thou shall not place a radar photo camera unless there is evidence that a high number of accidents are occurring due to speeding in a region

    When you make it right then the police are going to stop being tax collectors and are going to be crime preventers. This is the goal.

  • acat

    I have no objection whatsoever to your stated goals.

    I am not clear, though, on why you object to Rand Paul opening the conversation.

    It’s too late to talk about cops using Piper Cubs to do speeding tickets, the country’s got crazy quilt of regulations on it. Same-same for speed traps, not sure about the lidar/camera vans.

    It’s not too late for drones, they’re also a great visual to make the argument that maybe we need to revisit the restrictions on cops, eh?

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    a 55 mph zone.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    that one of the main purposes of the U.S. Constitution, especially given the problems with the Articles of Confederation, was to create a uniform economic free market in the U.S., which I think is most definitely a great thing.

    But your question is rather broad, and I must confess that I am just beginning to get into the weeds on this.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    later

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    is meaningless. You do favor new laws based on what man will do to the hilt given what technology allows for or makes more of a threat. Tools matter too, but why have a blame game or tools v man semantic argument, when we seem to agree on a lot with regard to new laws. Good discussion MH and thx for weighing in.

  • acat

    Mew

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    Cheetah

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    http://www.itworld.com/security/282857/hacked-drones-could-become-missiles-over-us-researchers-warn

  • funwithknives

    “Shields, full emergency power…!”

    All Navy’Marine New Build Aircraft are shielded against EMP as part of their design specs.
    If these drones are autonomous {self-directed,pre-programmed} will add’l shielding, either metallic or electronic work ‘well enough’?

    Let’s just test that out awhile, shall we…?