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No ‘gun-free zones’ for murderers in James’ World

James’ World being the same one in which Cain slew Abel, Holmes paid no heed to Aurora theater’s ban on concealed guns carried by non-criminals

Upon hearing that 12 were killed and 58 wounded by a gun-wielding 24-year old at a movie theater in Colorado, the mayor of the nation’s largest city just couldn’t let a crisis go to waste:

“You know, soothing words are nice, but maybe it’s time that the two people who want to be President of the United States stand up and tell us what they are going to do about it, because this is obviously a problem across the country,” New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.

Yes, Mayor Bloomberg, the words “gun-free zone” are soothing to criminals, which is why, despite the Empire State and Big Apple’s draconian gun control laws, there is still at least one murder per day in NYC. Yes, this rate passes for “progress” in a jurisdiction that used to see thousands murdered each year before former Mayor Rudy Giuliani cracked down on all crime from serial squeegee-wielding to grafitti artists, but surely more lives would be saved if criminals feared their victims and not just the police.

In Aurora, the police arrived on the scene within 60-90 seconds of the first shot being fired by the former University of Colorado at Denver student. Killers know that lots of innocents can be killed and their sick “statement” made before Johnny Law brings the curtain down. Do liberals like Mayor Bloomberg ever wonder why mass shootings never take place at NRA shooting ranges or police stations? Can they spell D*E*T*E*R*E*N*C*E? Do they appreciate how precious is each life that could be saved by a concealed gun carrier that takes out the murderer before victim numbers 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, or 11 have their lives snuffed out?

What would Hizzoner have the presidential candidates advocate? Aren’t federal officials bound by a constitution that even the nation’s highest court affirms as protecting an individual’s right to bear arms for self defense? Or does the anti-trans fat and Big Gulp nanny-stater want President Barack Obama to issue another lawless executive order, this time confiscating all non-water pistols from all but the bodyguards of elected officials and Hollywood stars?

Evil men aren’t deterred by words on paper and the victims killed before the police arrive aren’t assuaged by NYC’s declining murder rate. Every individual has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness via self defense, not just those individuals over and above last year’s murder tally.

President Barack Obama’s federal government has refused to let We the People bail ourselves out economically since the beginning of the Great Recession/Anemic Recovery and officials in states like New York deny us even the right to self defense. How many more must die at the altar of liberal’s Utopianism? Especially those Utopians whose lives are protected by concealed and unconcealed guns carried by their entourage?

Mike DeVine

“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson

Atlanta Law & Politics columnist –  Examiner.com

Editor of  Hillbilly Politics and Co-Founder and Editor of Political Daily

Charlotte Observer and Atlanta Journal-Constitution op-eds archived at Townhall.com.

COMMENTS

  • 6eorge Jetson

    I’m in no mood for the Statists to ignore their own record and tell us how we should have faith in them to bring about a safer environment backed by empirical results.

  • Darin_H

    Then no one will do it, right?

  • jazzycmk

    I was arguing with folks on my sister’s Facebook page. She started the discussion by saying she gets so put out with “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people” argument. Her fair point is that if James Holmes had gone into that theater with a baseball bat, he wouldn’t have harmed 71 people.

    Now I’m not a big gun proponent (I would likely have trouble with the gun lobbies if I was running for office). I don’t own one or want one.

    However, my argument to my liberal sister (not sure what happened there. She might be adopted) and her liberal friends was that Jim Holmes was bent on harming as many people as possible, The tool didn’t matter. If it hadn’t been a gun, it could have been a fire or a bomb or who knows what.

    Jim Holmes didn’t try to get away or escape. He didn’t care. You can’t think logically or rationally when dealing with an irrational person. Bad people (e.g. – drug dealers) are going to find ways to get the worst guns. You’re not getting that genie back in the bottle.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    guns

  • http://boldcolor.blogspot.com/ Paula

    So taking away his right to buy a gun wouldn’t have taken away his ability to cause mass casualties. Any somewhat intelligent person can find the instructions for making a bomb on the internet and figure out how to put one together and detonate it in a movie theater.

    I’d love to hear Piers Morgan’s explanation for the London bombing a few years back. Or the extremely low homicide rate (0.66/100K) of Switzerland, where nearly all males are conscripted into the militia and are required to keep their military weapons (maintained and ready) in their homes This can include everything from assault rifles to machine guns. The U.S. homicide rate is 5/100K, obviously, much higher in places like Chicago where the criminals are the only ones with the guns.

  • Tbone

    That would be a teachable moment.

  • aesthete

    It’s their private property and they can do what they want on their property. On what grounds could they be sued?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    The risk and thus be barred from recovery

  • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

    Let’s say I have a CCW permit. I want to see the Batman movie but I’m legally (I assume) barred from carrying my Glock 29 into the theater. Because I don’t have my weapon, I’m wounded late in the barrage.

    Now then, legally, have I assumed risk or have I simply complied with a law that is based on the sole determination of the property owner? Actually, what I’ve assumed, based on the “No Guns” sign, is that the theater owner has taken appropriate measures to secure the theater and I will be safe without my gun.

    How about that scenario?

  • PowerToThePeople

    you are correct, but when someone or an entity uses their private property as a business or meeting place they must take all necessary steps to ensure the safety of those who come.

    Now, without knowing anything more about this shooting, such as have their been other attacks via fists, gangs, knives, etc or did they guy call and threaten, etc we can not really state what steps were taken. But juries award money for good reasons and no reason at all, no way of knowing how this will turn out.

  • PowerToThePeople

    is this correct. No one would use a defense that movie goers assume the risk of being injured by watching a movie whether it be a gunman or faulty building collapse. The only way the patron would assume all risk would be via waiver of liability and no movie theater in the country asks for a waiver of liability contract to be signed.

  • aesthete

    AFAIK, there is nowhere which would require a business to allow firearms or any sort of weaponry based on public safety. I don’t know how a business could even be held liable for what seems to me like the tendentious hypothetical scenario where CCW holders stopped the murderer. Suppose that in a restaurant that allows guns on premises, a CCW permit holder had their gun misfire and injure another customer — would the restaurant chain be held liable? No, because third-party actions which the store could not reasonably anticipate cannot be held against that store — there would be no grounds for suing or any reasonably way to ascertain and limit damages.

    More importantly, from a conservative point of view, why should we unduly restrict the right of private property owners (“business” owners or not) when 1) the business itself has a compelling interest in making its location a suitable place to do business (which would include safety), and 2) when consumers are deciding of their own volition that they are willing to patronize that business? In this case, the business put up signage that indicated their desire not to have guns on the premises — consumers were going in with the full knowledge that this was a “gun-free” zone, with all of the attendant problems and “advantages” that such a zone conferred. It is no different from complaining about slipping on a patch of wet tile, when a store puts up a “slippery when wet” sign near the patch in question.

  • aesthete

    that, unless the theatre had an extremely broad written policy guaranteeing the customer’s 100% safety in the theatre or more specifically the security of the customer against gun violence, a customer would be considered to have assumed risk in much the same way that I would assume risk if I went to a friend’s house, was asked to not bring my gun in his house, and was shot by his homicidal roommate without my friend’s consent or prior knowledge.

    There was written signage regarding the policy; the customer was thus informed and his or her consent was meaningful. Changing it so that a business owner must pay damages whenever a third party initiates any sort of violence on their premises (which is effectively what demanding liability in this case would be) would be highly problematic.

  • PowerToThePeople

    they have to allow armed patron, simply saying that while you are correct that it is their property so they can set the rules, at the same time they are still obligated to protect those on their property.

    Without knowing more about that certain theater (dangerous area, propensity to have violence occur, shooter threatened theater in the days prior to the shooting, etc) there is no way to know how much liability they face.

    As to the patron suing, it will happen. Wrong or right, this is the world we live in. People sue others just because it snowed and they “slipped” on the snowy sidewalk in front of some poor guys home. How much they win or settle out for will not be known for quite some time, but most if not all of the victims will get some money.

    Side not, putting up signs barring concealed weapons does not place the burden of safety on the patron, does not legally assume they are taking a risk, etc. At the end of the day, the safety of the client lies in the lap of the business.

  • JSobieski

    All they need to do is be reasonable.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    And allow conceal carry at your home theatre showing of the movie

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    In that scenario

  • JSobieski

    Premises accessible to the public are liable when they behave in an unreasonable fashion.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    That a mass murderer may attend is not a foreseeable risk that a property owner must ensure against . No one forces gun carriers to attend.

  • JSobieski

    No duty of care that was broken. Was the theater negligent about security? Given the location. . . nope.

  • aesthete

    as is reasonable, and that would be true whether or not they allowed guns onto the premises. Put another way, allowing gun owners to bring their guns to the premises has no bearing on negligence and the “reasonable” standard (again, AFAIK).

    Unforseeable third-party actions on business premises are by and large not considered grounds for liability. While you’re right that there are hypothetical scenarios under which the theatre might have liability, there’s no evidence at the moment to indicate such. I highly doubt that there are grounds to sue, and certainly not to the extent that we should casually bring that up as a proactive step that should definitely be taken, as was done in the comment that I initially replied to.

  • JSobieski

    That reasonable precautions would avoid. Preventing a well orchestrated mass killing in a peaceful location in a peaceful city is not foreseeable, and thus the theater had “reasonable” security.

  • Dave_A

    But it shows he expected to face armed resistance from his victims…

    It also means that if that gear WAS real, the best a carrying-citizen could have done (barring an olympic-grade feat of marksmanship, eg shooting him in the face) is distract and/or injure (with an extremity hit) him (eg make him shoot them instead of into the crowd) & buy time….

    If that stuff is real, I’d expect Ft Carson will be doing 100% inventories on a widespread basis, looking for who ‘lost’ the gear in question…..

  • kipling

    It may have just been a part of his costume, especially if it was fake.

    Nor do I agree that Holmes would have continued his attack if faced with armed resistance. He is not a professional but a butcher who counted on fear and panic to succeed. Faced with returned fire, he may have abandoned the rampage altogether. He certainly did not challenge the police when they arrived.

    As I said in another post, body armor is not a guarantee. Holmes had no combat experience. It is one thing to have the armor and another thing to trust it enough to take a hit in it. Defensive shooting is sometimes more about deterrence and forcing the attacker to abandon his plan than it is about scoring a direct hit.

  • 6eorge Jetson

    False Dichotomy (aka Exluded Middle

    The old Statist playbook. They do seem to study it well.

  • jakeofalltrades

    who do this kind of thing all the time – as you hinted at before.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    in which the theater is partially responsible, but it would be difficult to construct a realistic scenario.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    smiles

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    wage? I hear ya Darin, and great to hear from you.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    to let you bring a gun on their property? Hard to make that connection.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    He as the one in Chicago that killed patrons of the Worlds Fair there in the late 1800s I think. Detailed in a great book titled The Devil and the White City. I read it last year.

  • http://libertynews.com/ mbecker908

    ,,

  • JSobieski

    Nothing stops anyone from suing anyone over anything. If you google “God v. Reagan” you can read a frivolous lawsuit filed by a person who changed their name to God. In the lawsuit, God sued the federal government for infringement of God’s inherent rights as a creator of the universe.

    If I wanted to sue President Obama on a claim that the President is stalking me with telepathic messages of harassment—-nothing at the court house is going to stop me from doing so. However, the case would dismissed on a motion to dismiss, and I would be subject to sanctions for the frivolous case.

    So what GC and I are saying is that a case against the theater could be filed, but that it wouldn’t get to a trial and the theater wouldn’t have to pay any money.

    The literal answer to the question “could someone sue the theater over this?” is of course yes. The answer to “can they sue?” is always yes. So when lawyers answer the question, the lawyer is really answering the question “can a lawsuit on this get to trial?”

    More specifically, in this case a lawsuit would almost certainly survive a motion to dismiss. Where the lawsuit becomes non-viable is when the theater files for summary judgment.

    Lots of nuance and details that at a 10,000 ft level mean—no, there is no legal remedy against the theater that should get anywhere.

    Even the Supreme Court of California has precedent on this issue that is contrary to suing the theater. Kentucky Fried Chicken of California v. Superior Court involved a business that refused to meet the demands of the robber/hostage taker. The business refused the demand, and hostages were killed as a result of the refusal. The end result was no liabiilty. http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?collection=journals&handle=hein.journals/wsulr25&div=15&id=&page=

  • Tbone

    But it would be a teachable moment for all businesses to contemplate the stupidity of barring legally carried guns when there is no effective bar against illegally carried guns.

  • texasref

    You can’t sue businesses for dangerous stupidity. You can, however, vote with your feet and your dollars.

    There are enough ways to do business and entertain oneself without having to patronize Innocent Disarmament Zones.

  • johnconradarens

    Aren’t there already laws against murder?

    Yeah, I thought so, too…

  • partyof1

    “Is it a good thing that Cinemark was able to ban law abiding, background checked, trained permit holders from having a gun on that night?”

    The media will fan out and put gun dealers, gun owners and conservatives on the defensive. Why don’t they stick a microphone in the CEO’s face and ask this?

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    more later

  • demsaresatanic

    why doesn?t he do something about that.

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    communities?

  • Warrior

    James Holmes could have killed many more people with an automobile. Should we make them illegal, too?

    Maybe we could all ride the bus…

  • Warrior

    I wrote one similar called:

    “Colorado theater is gun free…”

    How many times do we have to re-enact this scenario before we start allowing 21-year-olds to take their gun license test just like teen-agers take their driver’s license test?

  • kowalski

    And it should be. Frankly we have no knowledge of what his parents knew other than the apparent fact that his mother recognized that her son was the perpetrator when the news broke. That’s probably the most significant aspect of the entire thing.

    He’s a Ph.D. student who has always been a stellar academic in all of his travels thusfar. He was accepted into that program with just an undergraduate degree – which meant he dove from the relatively shallow end of neuroscience into the deepest of the deep ends of the pool. Neuroscience undergraduate at UC-Riverside is one thing – it’s a hard course of study but it’s not insurmountable. The Ph.D. program he was in is a totally different story. He went from being one of the smartest people he knew to being one of the people who couldn’t swim, apparently. Already socially introverted, he withdrew even further.

    For one reason or another, due to explanations we don’t have access to, over the course of that year it became clear he couldn’t hack it.

    I read that the University was thinking of putting him on academic probation, which would have been reasonable but he wouldn’t accept it. Instead, he decided to withdraw from the program instead of allowing the University to help him stay in it.

    If you snub a Ph.D. program like that in its attempts to help you avoid the road rash you’re going to get from falling off the bike, you can effectively say that your entire future career in that discipline has been foreclosed on. In other words, at the moment he made the decision to withdraw his academic life in the field he worked so hard to be a part of was effectively over. Nobody at this point understand why he decided not to take the helping hand. He walked away. It was approximately around that time he started amassing his arsenal and planning his Grand Finale.

    Somewhere along the line in the past year or so, his outlook went from “best of the best” to “I’m taking myself out along with as many people as I can take with me.”

    So far we’ve learned precious little about what his parents knew regarding his state of late-stage desparation. But we can reasonably speculate that they knew it was pretty bad. In fact they may have been subsidizing him. He was also collecting unemployment benefits on his way out the door, which apparently he used to buy everything he did under the radar.

    By the way my estimate of all the materials and devices he used to commit all the crimes is under $7,000. People speculated at the high end of that spectrum, something like $20 grand, but it’s not so. He could have assembled the arsenal piecemeal over several months for not a lot more than 5 grand.

    He also knew what he was doing. The insanity thing he’s playing right now belies the fact that everything was meticulously planned, including timing the music in his apartment. If someone had killed him at the theater, the first responders to his apartment would have probably blown themselves up. He was quite lucid in his planning and execution of events, and he did it with an IQ a couple of standard deviations above the mean.

  • kowalski

    I’ve read comments on other fora where people have asked things like: “How did he learn how to do this?” He’s a Ph.D. research student at a research university. As a neuroscience student as an undergraduate it’s customary (if not essential) to take both organic chemistry and biochemistry, and he graduated from UC Riverside near the top of his class, by all indications.

    So he understood on first principles how to construct explosive devices, if he wanted to take his organic chemistry background and apply it to building bombs. Apparently he did so.

    If he hadn’t been able to purchase the guns he bought, he could just as easily have used incendiary devices or even poisonous agents. Nothing he did was that hard to this guy. He managed to comprehensively booby trap his own apartment without anyone even knowing what he was doing, then get out of there and execute the rest of his plan. And the SWAT guys almost bought the story that he was one of THEM!

    He meant this as a kind of supernatural experience / almost theatrical experience designed to do exactly what was in his head when he planned it.

    He’s not just amoral and immoral – he’s actually *antimoral* in the sense of *antimatter*. On a whole different plane of evil.

  • westcoastpatriette

    as you think. Holmes parents hired an attorney and the attorney just read a statement from his mother clarifying her comment. As usual, according to her, the press completely misrepresented the conversation.

    Without any knowledge of the incident yet, Holmes mother received a phone call from ABC news on the morning of the incident. The reporter then asked her if she was Arlene Holmes — the mother of James Holmes and she answered, “You have the right person,” referencing herself, not her son. So, as usual, it sounds like the press sensationalized and essentially changed the content of the conversation for some unknown reason.

  • kowalski

    But we don’t know the timing of those phone calls. From what I’ve read, she didn’t know anything until she woke up and then realized it was her son. It could be that ABC called her, too, I don’t discount that – there have been very few firm details of the timing of those conversations so you could be right too.

  • kowalski

    He was about to get tossed out of the apartment he booby trapped. They’ve been awfully quiet and deliberately so. My sincere belief is that they’ve known for a while that their son was going off the rails. We’ll see.

  • kowalski

    Look, this guy was in the middle of a plan that he had hatched that really puts a new level of “D” in “Depravity”. So it’s probable he was lying to them, too, perhaps to receive financial support until he could carry it out.

  • westcoastpatriette

    I’m not suggesting that his parents knew nothing and were completely shocked, but, given the low ethical standards we see daily in the press, her version of what happened with her initial phone call makes more sense then her blurting out “You have the right person,” to imply knowledge of her sons capability to commit this heinous crime.

    My experience working in psyche has taught me there is no end to levels of denial that can be operating in families and it would be really interesting to be in on the investigation and find out more about Holmes’ upbringing and relationship with his parents. Many times, high achievers are seething with rage because they are so controlled and manipulated by parents pushing them to become something spectacular. We may never be privy to the truth, however, because dysfunctional families usually have a lot invested in keeping their secrets secret at all costs.

  • kowalski

    I want to give his parents a wide berth – I’m not saying conclusively they’re complicit in any way. It’s not out of bounds to speculate, however that they knew something was wrong and had been wrong for a while. The dimensions of that are things we have yet to learn, presumably.

    It looks as though all of this happened in the past year or so. I think it’s very significant that he couldn’t find a job after he graduated from UC-Riverside (if the reports are correct) and then decided to go into this extremely advanced and prestigious Ph.D. program. He got accepted, and he was absolutely having troubles in it. So there’s a big problem there.

    But even that kind of trouble doesn’t usually make people arm themselves to the teeth, booby trap their apartments, amass an arsenal and try to kill as many people as they can. I mean – people usually adapt to failure.

    But he was also self-isolated, by most accounts. A person who perhaps wouldn’t accept consoling friendship OR help from the University and who turned very violently the other way instead.

    You know I can’t believe that someone of his caliber wouldn’t have been offered as much help as he needed to stay in the program. In general once you’ve been accepted to a program like that, you have to kind of *want* to flunk out – it’s in the University’s interest to help you stay in it and succeed, regardless of what it takes.

    Apparently he shunned that assistance and went in a very, very, very different direction instead.

  • kowalski

    In “…someone of his caliber…”

    It’s a horrible story in every way imaginable and I’m not trying to joke about it.

  • westcoastpatriette

    was part of his long-planned out plot to commit another mass shooting near Columbine — sort of far-fetched speculation, but then we are not dealing with a normal person here. Dying his hair red, staging the event on a real stage pretending to be the Joker — all of these things reveal a bizarre plot that probably made perfect sense to him in his paranoid world. Most psychotic first-time episodes take place during college age years and the stress of college has long been suspect as one of the precipitators of the break.

    All of this is conjecture, though. Fascinating if it was not so tragic.

  • kowalski

    And to indulge in that fascination slightly – and I mean ABSOLUTELY NO harm to the people in the theater – he chose the movie carefully. People who go to midnight screenings of Batman near opening night are pretty dedicated fans.

    He deliberately chose that audience to massacre – it wasn’t an accident, either. He could have chosen other movies, other times, other places but it was the midnight screening of a Batman sequel on opening night where people who were pretty dedicated fans who would probably stay up all night long and go to a 24 hour diner and talk about the movie would be in the audience. He wanted to kill that audience, I think. And he knew that the people in that audience would be most susceptible to thinking his initial moves with the booms and the gas were a “theater effect” – perhaps even one they thought was “part of the show” and *wanted* to see.

    So there is definitely an element of that in his crime. In my view it was an absolutely deliberate choice he made. He wasn’t looking to kill the people who sauntered up disinterestedly to the theater three weeks later chose to go to Batman after considering 4 or 5 other movies, out of boredom and ennui. He timed the whole thing to coincide with the **real fans**, the people who had really wanted to go, in that particular location. The comic book fans, the real movie aficianados, the late-night denizens, the movie geeks, basically. He chose the timing in part because he wanted to kill the audience he intended to kill.

    It was a very elaborately and meticulously planned atrocity, as far as I can see. It’s one of the most horrific things I’ve ever witnessed either real or imaginary, on every level it’s horrific.

  • avagreen

    to obtain the chemicals he used to booby-trap his apartment. So, apparently, he did use his PhD program in the planning of this attack. Haven’t heard anymore on that issue since then, but haven’t been listening to the story much.

  • westcoastpatriette

    sounds like this guy was living in a fantasy world for quite some time leading up to the shooting. That’s what makes it so hard to believe that no one noticed anything to clue them in to what was going on. But, then again, he was so introverted that maybe he concealed his inner world from everyone but himself. A huge shrug here.

  • avagreen

    I have a son who I rarely hear from and have no idea what is going through his head. He’s an introvert and avoids family gatherings. I think he’s depressed…..Long story.

    Here’s a pic of this guy. His facial expression doesn’t connect to someone who feels guilt.
    http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/james-holmes-appears-in-court-in-front-of-colorado-shooting-victims-families-1.3854312

  • shadowbear12

    Interesting speculations here regarding how this person could do such a thing and whether there was some way to prevent it and whether others missed signs etc. My focus can’t get off the issue of gun control though. The left is already seeing this as an example where gun control will help. This actually saddens and frightens me. This case, the case at Virginia Tech, and some others really show that people need to be able to arm themselves. About twelve were killed in this case and I think 32 at VA Tech. The police cannot prevent these things, nor get there in time to limit the problem. Also, we see plenty evidence of regular citizens acting as heroes in these cases, surrendering their lives to protect those around them. Why then do we as a society take the absurd position that we should disarm these heroic regular citizens?? I am afraid that due to the completely insane thought process behind gun control, many many more are going to die. Suppose 3 or 4 law abiding citizens in that theater had been packing? Suppose a few young people at VA Tech had been packing?

  • avagreen

    ……while still in his program, read a book his mentor professor wrote, with my son’s research (with no credits) used as part of the professor’s proof.

    So, he quit. This type behavior is endemic in the PhD programs.
    He, as a child, teen, and young adult…..always believed in the best of people even with they hurt him over and over. It hurt to watch. Now…..that and other incidents have made him very suspicious of people’s motives. Even his family. Not trying to equate that to this guy, but people just don’t always know what’s going on in someone’s head, if that person isn’t forthcoming.

  • westcoastpatriette

    Sorry about your son. Will keep him in my prayers. Have had similar problems with my son at times. He is not a total introvert, but like so many males, tends to hide true feelings or stuff a lot to avoid conflict with others.

  • Common_Cents

    “This statement is to clarify a statement made by ABC media. I was awakened by a call from a reporter by ABC on July 20 about 5:45 in the morning. I did not know anything about a shooting in Aurora at that time,” Holmes said in a statement this afternoon, read to the national press by attorney Lisa Damiani. “He asked if I was Arlene Holmes and if my son was James Holmes who lives in Aurora, Colorado. I answered yes, you have the right person. I was referring to myself.”

    (See also: Full coverage Colorado theater shooting)

    “I asked him to tell me why he was calling and he told me about a shooting in Aurora,” she continues. “He asked for a comment. I told him I could not comment because I did not know if the person he was talking about was my son, and I would need to find out.”

    In the same article, ABC also reported the false story about tea party connections. Things that make you go hmmmmm. Who to believe???
    The ABC reporter gave some different version and said there is no recording of the call.

  • kowalski

    .

  • kowalski

    To what extent financially his parents supported him in the past year in addition to whatever unemployment benefits he received, plus loans and other things he got from friends and other relatives. It would be interesting to see whose credit card he used to charge all the deliveries to his home and elsewhere. Someone must know that at this point, if they know that he received something like 50 deliveries. There’s a credit card involved here and my guess is that it’s not his.

    Clearly he needed thousands of dollars in disposable money over several months to do what he did. He got it from somewhere. He was about to get tossed out of his apartment but I don’t know whether he planned to live long enough to be evicted.

  • kowalski

    Which is very rare, there are a lot of credit card transactions that trace back to somewhere. And those people would have gotten the bill. And my pure speculation is that it’s his parents.

  • westcoastpatriette

    how he paid for so many of the chemicals he ordered. I had heard that he actually ordered some of them from the university and had them delivered there. If he worked in the lab, is there a possibility he had access to a univ. credit card to place the order? If that’s the case, look for more dirt to fly as far as accountability at the university goes.

  • kowalski

    Well, unless they have records of the timing, who are you to believe?

    If ABC News mis-reported what she said, though, let’s all get together and ask that they just all resign. Because if they misreported that, too, they all should. We could use one less alphabet network.

  • kowalski

    Not unexpectedly. He was wearing SWAT-quality body armor including throat protection, head protection, groin and leg protection and a ballistic vest. Center of mass hits would have likely not stopped him. Point blank shots at close range in the face, back of the neck, places like that might have done it. It was going to be a bloody scene no matter what. That’s also part of why he used smoke devices.

    We’ve seen in the past that the only way to stop someone like this is to be armed and to *charge the shooter*. Unfortunately that would have probably meant that someone would die, unless they got off a very, very good shot. He knew what he was doing. It would have been very hard to stop this man from a distance unless you were a very good shot with your handgun.

    If you do not charge the shooter and you do not shoot back, they are going to do whatever they want, which is what he did, including exiting the building and picking off people as they tried to flee through the back door. He successfully terrorized everyone in the room and as they ran and shielded themselves he picked them off.

    One thing that astounds me though, is that the house lights apparently never came on. When the emergency exit of a movie theater is open, an alarm should sound and the house lights should come on automatically. More visibility could have saved lives.

    I don’t know whether anyone in the theater was armed. It’s a very tough call to say whether or not a pistol would have been effective against this guy except close up, or with an almost perfect shot. He was heavily armored.

  • kowalski

    The gear he was wearing would have withstood almost every handgun round that hit it, except for certain types of high-velocity penetrating rounds. He chose a dark theater and also tossed smoke canisters around to further obscure the view of anyone who might have shot back at him.

    Even if several people in the theater had been armed it’s very hard to see how they could have been effective unless they moved quickly on him and managed to charge him and shoot him at point blank range, or got off an *extremely* good shot.

    Not saying I wouldn’t have wanted to try. If I had been there, I would have, but it would have been a tough, tough shot against a guy with a shotgun, a handgun, an AR-15 and dressed in full body armor, in the dark, in the smoke and confusion.

    Charging the shooter was the only real way to stop the violence and charging the shooter was a death sentence to at least some of the people who might have tried, which is why nobody did.

  • tnfriendofcoal101368

    believe ABC news about anything? Even this…

  • JSobieski

    One can objectively lay out the facts and still be a strong advocate of the 2nd amendment.

    Resistance in the theater would have required a lot of skill or a lot of luck. The best option may have been putting something on the floor for him to trip on.

  • partyof1

    the 2005 Tyler TX courthouse shooting in which Mark Wilson died trying to stop the killer:

    from wikipedia


    As Wilson approached Arroyo from behind, Arroyo was taking aim at his son who he had already shot in the leg and wounded. Acting to defend the life of Arroyo’s son, Wilson fired a round from approximately 50 feet which struck Arroyo in the back causing him to stumble and taking his attention away from his son.

    Mark Wilson has been widely credited as heroic for his selfless actions, which are believed to have caused Arroyo to cease his attack and flee the area without murdering his son.

    After Wilson’s first shot, Arroyo approached him withstanding at least one more .45 round from Wilson before killing him.

    So yes the CHL holder lost vs. the heavily armed and armored shooter. But he saved a life, and maybe more than one.

  • Don T.

    to the extent one can follow it. Let the business know you are not going to patronize them, and the reason why. It’s even better if you let them know you will go to a competitor who is gun friendly. But you may have to go to one of these businesses anyway. What then?

    One aspect of this I haven’t read about, and that is that Colorado law allows licensed concealed carry in places like theaters. And Colorado law also allows any business to decide to ban firearms from their property, which is what this theater company in fact did. However, the “no firearms” signs have no effect of law. A permit holder with a concealed handgun could in fact patronize the theater without breaking any law, unless the firearm was discovered by the theater management. The worst that would happen would be the theater manager would demand the permit holder to leave or possibly disarm. If the permit holder did not, he or she could be charged with criminal trespass. So, permit holders who are armed in states with similar laws, do in fact conceal carry to these locations all the time. It’s a shame that this subterfuge has to be taken, but this practice is not uncommon.

  • Don T.

    by good people who are armed. One never really knows when or where that confrontation will occur. That means, we have to procure firearms to protect our homes and our persons. Sometimes, one has to be creative to exercise self defense.

    One aspect of this I haven?t read about, and that is that Colorado law allows licensed concealed carry in places like theaters. And Colorado law also allows any business to decide to ban firearms from their property, which is what this theater company in fact did. However, the ?no firearms? signs have no effect of law in Colorado. A permit holder with a concealed handgun could in fact patronize the theater without breaking any law, unless the firearm was discovered by the theater management or by security or law enforcement. The worst that would happen would be the theater manager would demand the permit holder to leave or possibly disarm. If the permit holder did not, he or she could be charged with criminal trespass. So, permit holders who are armed in states with similar laws, do in fact conceal carry to these locations all the time. It?s a shame that this subterfuge has to be taken, but this practice is not uncommon.

  • kowalski

    Many people who have never fired a handgun don’t realize that they’re hard enough to shoot accurately under good conditions. Maintaining your skill at shot placement takes practice, and that’s when you’re not on a “two way firing range” that is shooting back at you with shotguns and suchlike.

    Under pressure, with your heart pounding 180 bpm in a dark theater against an assailant armed and armored like this guy was, you’d better believe those shots are going to be a challenge.

    Also, he apparently dosed himself with Vicodin before the rampage, to further deaden his perception of pain. That means it would have been even more difficult to disable him with merely an injuring shot, instead of one to a vital organ or the central nervous system. And let’s not forget, on a head shot you’d be shooting through the helmet he was wearing or the gas mask he had on, if you engaged him face to face, exposing yourself to his weapons.

    I’m not saying someone who was carrying and who was very brave couldn’t have made a difference. I’m saying it’s not a pleasant scenario for even an experienced concealed carry person to consider.

  • Common_Cents

    If the theater was known to allow permitted carriers He probably would have chosen another gun free zone.

    What would be more effective in stopping him? one or more permitted carriers in the theater? or none at all?

  • JSobieski

    In more normal crime scenarios, the possibility of armed resistance is a deterrent.

    There are however situations outside the norm where conventional motivations either don’t apply or apply only to a lesser degree.

    Changing gun laws in either direction most likely would have made no difference in this case.

  • JSobieski

    courtrooms are not dark

    no gas gernades were used in the courtroom

    the hero had a clean shot—not a bunch of people between him and the shooter

    less people generally, and lower population density per square foot

    the hero was able to approach the shooter from behind

    All that stuff in the aggregate makes a big difference. Not saying that an armed theater would have made things worse—just saying we are in butterfly effect territory.

  • kowalski

    It’s very hard for me to judge what would have deterred him aside from the assurance of meeting truly overwhelming force. He obviously wasn’t deterred by the thought of encountering some resistance because that’s why he armored up and took the Vicodin and did it all anyway.

    He was going in with the expectation someone might have shot back at him. He booby trapped his apartment so that if he got killed in the theater, he’d have the “last laugh” when the first responders busted down his door. He was prepared, mentally and in terms of his equipment and the drug he took, for someone in that theater to be armed.

    I’m not saying nobody should have been. I’m not saying I wouldn’t have tried to resist him if I had been there and been armed. I’m saying it wouldn’t have been easy. One guy/gal with a .380 pocket pistol from 20 feet away would have needed a miracle. Even someone with a full-sized duty pistol in 9mm or .40 or .45ACP would have been at an enormous disadvantage.

  • tnfriendofcoal101368

    and appropriate crib of Chris Nolan…

  • Common_Cents

    There was a report of a timer that was supposed to set off the apt as a diversion for authorities while he was shooting up the theater.

    We probably won’t know much more since the judge put a gag order on the case. Prob no more details from attorneys or police.

  • Common_Cents

    They are not widely reported in national media, mainly only local media. Fox does but most of the other national media finds armed citizens defending themselves against their agendas.

  • Michael M. Keohane

    contrary to popular opinion, a man standing and firing a weapon in front of a movie screen and front lit by the light from the projecton booth is a very clear target, A movie theater is measured in feet not yards so the target is resonablely close to a concealled carry shooter. The prospective shooter is in the darkened theater and there are no innocent bystanders around the gunman, A chance for a calm unhurried shot or shots. You don’t need to kill or wound the gunman – return fire and the impact of the bullets on the body armour will quickly discourage someone who, although prepared to kill and wound others, is not prepared to be killed or wounded, A reasonably proficient marksman should be able to manage a head-shot, The protective mask protects from gas not bullets. According to the best information, the gunman entered the theater through a side exit, set off two or more gas bombs before firing some shots into the ceiling before he started shooting people. An alert person might have been able to identify the threat and two-tapped the gunman before anyone was hurt.

  • Michael M. Keohane

    light from the projection booth would have provide some front light. You don’t have to actiually kill or wound an armoured man – the impact of the bullets on an inexperienced individual would be enough for the individual to stop firing and take cover or try to flee the theater or, even, surrender. Although firearms are not magic, they are not ineffective against armour as some believe.

  • kowalski

    I read the music was on a timer. It’s probable that he had several alternative uses in mind for the apartment. Luckily as far as the apartment is concerned none of it came to pass – in part because at the end he wound up telling the police himself that it was booby trapped. The downstairs neighbor, female medical student had the sense not to barge through the door even though it was unlocked and she was angry the loud music was keeping her awake. It’s not hard to imagine him thinking:

    “If someone opens the door and sets the apartment off, the police will go there first. Then I’ll have the theater to myself.

    If nobody opens the door and the police come to the theater first, and kill me, I’ll have the last laugh when they open the door.”

    We don’t know exactly what he was thinking but no matter how you slice it, it’s pretty perverse.

    Also, I’d like to say something else: Just because I’m telling people it wouldn’t have been easy to stop this guy doesn’t mean I’m anti-CCW in any way. I have a license to carry concealed and I use it – but I’m also aware of the difficulties involved with it. Once you get one and you start carrying, and really think about what you’re doing, it becomes a lot clearer. It is in no way as simple as thinking: “Now I’ve got a gun, I’m ready for anything.” In fact the more you educate yourself about it, the more of a weighty responsibility it is. That’s what I’m trying to get across here.

    I recommend people read Massad Ayoob’s “In The Gravest Extreme.” And if they’re really going to carry a gun and not just have the license and own the gun, they should seriously consider additional training on top of what they needed to get the gun and the license in the first place.

    Remember that even in a self-defense situation the instant you draw that weapon, you are now under the spotlight of the criminal statutes where you live just as assuredly as if you were a criminal. You’d better not be guilty.

  • kowalski

    We still do not know for sure if anyone in the theater that night actually was armed but did not draw their weapon. It’s possible that someone actually *was* armed and decided to flee instead of confront the shooter. I’m not aware that the police interviewed everyone who exited the theater and ascertained whether anyone else was armed but did not engage the attacker.

    It is not a requirement of the law that you have to, from everything I understand. The law does not compel anyone to use deadly force even if they have it available, and even if they could lawfully deploy it, as far as everything I’ve ever read has told me.

    Go out to about 6:00 here where Ayoob begins discussing “duty to kill” and “justifiable homicide.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI

  • http://www.examiner.com/x-1597-Charlotte-Law--Politics-Examiner Mike gamecock DeVine

    by the presence of guns by the law abiding.

  • Common_Cents

    What are the chances the gunman knew the theater was a gun free zone?

  • kowalski

    That’s why I have my license and my guns, but nobody should take it easy. It’s a serious responsibility and there’s a lot more to it than just being able to fire a gun.

  • Common_Cents

    and was claiming some credit.

  • shadowbear12

    My post is in response to a conglomerate of responses I have read. Sorry for any grammar and spelling mistakes, I am not naturally attentive to these things and do not have time equal to my passion for the subject, so am taking a chance that readers will be judging content against their own thoughts. Anyway, I am hearing good observations about how the perpetrator was clothed and how difficult it might have been to shoot him under the circumstances. My thought is SO WHAT?? I remember my brother and I teaching my son’s Japanese exchange teacher (90 lb woman) how to shoot a .357. After a day she was out shooting both of us. Also, body armor might protect your life, but it does not mean it will stop the pain. So the right person, in that theater could have easily stopped that “nut job” cold. It disturbs me to hear “conservatives” speculating about the possible difficulties in the situation. Sure guns require training, but so does driving a car!! Our best best for safety remains FREE PEOPLE WHO ARE ARMED and trusting in God. Government regulation and control makes us less safe.

  • Viet71

    Best place to shoot in these circumstances: foot or ankle.