As a REALTOR, I am always trying to put a positive spin on things. For example, a small increase in monthly sales means; ”the housing market is on its way to recovery.” A home never needs a lot of repairs; rather it has “great potential!” And I would never describe a small backyard as tiny and unusable, it would be “maintenance free”
So when I read a prediction by Mike Colpitts, editor of Realtytrac’s Housing Predictor about the possibility of 10 million more foreclosures hitting the market, I tried to find the silver lining. Maybe the prediction is simply the worst case scenario and unlikely to happen, or possibly the Making Homes Affordable program would prevent more people from losing their homes.
But then reality sets in and its not pretty. The more I think about it, 10 million foreclosures over the next 3 yrs might actually be the best case scenario.
I wrote a brief article about the looming foreclosure disaster recently for examiner.com.
Here are some of the statistics that should alarm you:
- The Mortgage Bankers Association reports that about 12% of all US mortgages are currently facing foreclosure.
- It is believed that in addition, there is a “shadow inventory” of approximately 600,000 homes that have been repossessed but not listed for sale yet.
- 2009 set a record for mortgage defaults with 3.9 million. That is up from 3.2 million in 2008.
- 16 million homeowners are currently upside down on their mortgages. This prevents them from selling and encourages some homeowners to walk away from their mortgages.
- The next wave of foreclosures will be homeowners with adjustable rate mortgages (ARM). Estimates have put the dollar value of ARMs at $2.5 trillion. Many people chose ARMs due to the low initial interest rates. They believed that they could sell their homes before the rates adjusted.
- In addition to the ARMs resetting, we are starting to see an increase in defaults in the high end market, as well as from buyers with good credit and conventional loans.
- According to Realtytrac, “One of out three Americans surveyed say that if home values continue to fall they’ll walk away from their mortgages, which could set up a worst case scenario for the U.S. economy, triggering an economic calamity.”
I was also shocked that only 5% of homes targeted under Obama’s Making Homes Affordable program have been approved for loan modifications.
There are many problems with the program, but my main concern is that homeowners will still default, even after restructuring their mortgages to more favorable terms.
With the increasing unemployment rate and the slumping economy, the MHA program may be useless.
In addition, the tax credits for buyers will be expiring Apri 30th. Johnny Isakson, Senator from GA, pushed very hard over the summer to have the tax credits increased to $15,000 for both 1st time buyers and move-up buyers.
Unfortunately, Senator Isakson’s amendment was watered down. I think we need to increase the tax credit $15,000 for all buyers. Including investors. The quicker we can get the foreclosures off the market, the sooner the housing market will recover.
Tax credits for investors, or “house flippers,” would help move foreclosures off the banks’ books and give investors more budget room to renovate and re-sell homes below market value.
OK…. maybe that last thought was the REALTOR in me coming out again.
The bottom line is that the foreclosure crisis is far from over. And I haven’t even discussed the looming disaster in commercial real estate yet.
Jeff Emanuel
Ask one question of your friends in the business........
Kenny Solomon (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 4:17PM EDT (link)“What’s the potential with Commercial Real Estate ?”
Don’t put “up or down” in the question.
Then stand back and watch the fun.
"Its a great time to buy"
hawkpwr2000 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 4:28PM EDT (link)Kenny, thanks for the comment. Don’t underestimate the ability of a real estate agent to spin the question. I’ve been using “its a great time to buy for awhile now.”
Yes it can be fun to watch though.
Happy New Year,
Nice to meet another Jewish- gun owner.
Please read Ethan’s real estate articles at examiner.com
www.examiner.com/x-31875-Macon-Real-Estate-Examiner?showbio
Visit his website at: www.warnerrobinsrealestateguy.com
There is an excellent probability to lose all your investment
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 4:52PM EDT (link)unless you know commercial real estate extraordinarily well. Dabble in it and you’ll get eaten like a goldfish in a piranha bowl.
It’s not liquid. It’s not a short term investment. It’s sure as hell not a hobby.
The bubble.......
Kenny Solomon (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 5:28PM EDT (link)It’s not gonna pop.
It’s not gonna burst.
It’s gonna detonate.
Between taxes and a literal war on small businesses, watch what happens when interest rates start climbing……. and the rates are going to go up….. quite a bit too.
Kenny, you're absolutely right. nt
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:01PM EDT (link)MHA ?
oblio Friday, January 1st at 4:31PM EDT (link)Making Homes Affordable ?
Call me simple, but I bought a home that was affordable (and still is), not one I could afford later if everything went just right. If I’m reading this right, we (fiscally responsible folks) are now financing the low rates paid by those that never really could afford those homes if they bought them in a fiscally responsible manner. These folks ‘could’ have made out like bandits if they sold before the bubble burst but they guessed wrong and lost, tough taquitos buddy, I ain’t gonna subsidize your speculation.
By 'your' I meant the buyer not the OP :) nt
oblio Friday, January 1st at 4:33PM EDT (link)gambling with adjustable rate mortgages
hawkpwr2000 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 4:57PM EDT (link)A lot of lenders lured buyers with the adjustable rate mortgages. Your right, many of these borrowers should not have purchased homes in the first place. The buyers thought they could get in the home and either 1. Sell it before the rates adjusted, or 2. Re-finance.
Now, they owe too much to sell, and the home values are too low to refinance and eventually a large amount of these homes will go into foreclosure.
So far the MHA program has done very little and probably won’t help much in the long term.
Unfortunately, what you described as “simple” became very difficult for people to figure out.
Please read Ethan’s real estate articles at examiner.com
www.examiner.com/x-31875-Macon-Real-Estate-Examiner?showbio
Visit his website at: www.warnerrobinsrealestateguy.com
The other simple thing
oblio Friday, January 1st at 5:29PM EDT (link)is to simply buy what you can afford, nothing more. The same mindset that ’causes’ people to rack up credit card debt buying cr*p they don’t NEED and can’t afford helped to cause the housing crisis. No one is entitled to a PS3, or a new car, or a 3 (or 4 or 5 or 6) bedroom house. Of course now that ‘free’ health care is a right, I’m sure that the above will soon follow, oh … wait … what was that about the ‘Making Cars Affordable’ program.
Steve Winwood during the Traffic years said it well:
The percentage you’re paying is too high priced
While you’re living beyond all your means
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he made on your dreams …
Adjustable rate mortgages are no more a "gamble"
JSobieski (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 5:31PM EDT (link)than buying stocks on margin, trading derivatives, or deciding to practice medicine with Obama care on the horizon. Risk taking of one sort or another is inevitable—playing it “safe” is itself a risk (the value of $100,000 in 1960 dollars placed in a pillow would not exactly have paid off).
Buyers were “lured” by the potential upside and ignored the downside. Buyers have a lot of responsibility here. Buyers took a risk, and they lost. Many home buyers have taken a risk and won.
Nobody is too big or too small to fail.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
Yep. nt
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 5:42PM EDT (link)Were buyers stupid risk-takers or stupid dupes?
bk (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 6:45PM EDT (link)The idea of taking an ARM when fixed rates were so low the past several years is incredibly dumb. It was a different story 25 years ago when there were double-digit mortgage rates. Then there was an actual risk/reward involved in ARMs. But in the past several years, using ARMs to buy mortgages was all risk and no reward.
Starting in 2004 I quit writing ARMs on "A" paper.
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:24PM EDT (link)Simply because I could get my borrowers a fixed rate at a lower rate.
The people who did go into ARMs went into subprime loans which were basically all 2 or 3 year fixed rate loans.
And then you’ve got option arms…
The mortgage arm for Toll Brothers was offering 7 year arms in 2005
JSobieski (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 9:08PM EDT (link)It was not irrational to take one. I started my solo practice in 2006 and it made sense to take on a no interest arm while I got things ramped up. It was definitely not a subprime loan on my part.
The leading cause of foreclosures is NOT the amount of the mortgage payment, it is being underwater. People who have some skin in the game have a way of staying in the game. People who are underwater have an incentive to walk away.
Given those parameters, I don’t think ARMs were a key part of the problem, they are more of a symptom of taking a short term view on house flipping and an assumption that re-financing would always be an option.
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
You're right and you're right.
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 9:16PM EDT (link)Up until “now”, the median tenure in a house was about 5 years. I’ve done lots of ARMs for people who were planning on relocating/up/down sizing in a relatively fixed window and for them it made sense.
The bigger problem with “affordability” is that lots of borrowers stretched their ratios to the max on the initial rate, expecting raises, business to improve, whatever, and their property to be worth 50 -75% more in five years. Oh, now they’re dealing with reality. Mortgage payment just went up, credit cards are maxed, car loans are costing them $1000+ per month (and we haven’t talked about the impact of $4C and car repos leaving folks who had OWNED older cars walking), etc and they’re making the same or less money than they did.
BOOM.
"Toys" played a big role too
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 9:25PM EDT (link)mbecker
I’m sure you saw it out in ‘Zona, “Toys” bought on the house piggy bank were also part of the way the bubble was inflated and how it burst.
House bought for $300K, bubble inflates to $500K, take a second for $100K, buy a new set of adult toys to play with, a toy hauler, a big truck to pull it all on a second that might or might not be a fixed rate. Market collapse, walk away from the house, keep the toys or sell them at a loss.
In my track alone, lots of houses that went into forclosure had a driveway full of toy hauler and all the toys, right up to when they house was foreclosed.
______________________________________
Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
I've heard that a lot and it's hard to have sympathy
mom2oneson (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:25PM EDT (link)I’m not so articulate as you mbecker but I would always think that was foolish they were counting chickens before they hatched. It’s so silly, live in an apartment for a while or just rent a house while you save or wait for that big bonus. I am not ahead on my bills but I can’t imagine buying something that is a luxury and hoping it works out later to pay for it. They are some nice luxury apartments that have mainly young marrieds with no kids or single people and the apartments are quiet. I’ll never understand people’s obsession with owning when it’s not the right time.
When you come down to it mom,
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:27PM EDT (link)almost nobody “owns” their home. Most people simply rent from the bank.
Almost nobody "owns" anything, 'becker.
Achance (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:52PM EDT (link)Your personal crap is about it anymore. I have some old family property that we got on a land grant in 1795 for family service in the Revolution. We’d see if I “owned” it if I didn’t pay the property taxes. In fact, they’re threatening to condemn it right now because I won’t let them screw me on the price of tearing down an old house. Avaricious bast#$ds think that since I’m in Alaska, I can pay them ten or twenty times what a job is worth. No thanks, I’ll come down and hire a bunch of Black guys and run the job myself. That’ll piss off the boys hanging around the building supply pretty good!
In Vino Veritas
I own
kyle8 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:56PM EDT (link)my funeral plot
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
No burial for this kitty.
acat (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 12:27AM EDT (link)I’ve specified cremation, ashes to be put under the flowerbeds.
Waste not, want not. And it’s not like I’m going to be wanting my old, arthritic bod back again regardless.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
lol acat nt
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 1:27AM EDT (link)they tax animals too
mom2oneson (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 1:26AM EDT (link)Its not the democrats either. This area is red as can be and they tax pets.
The fees and fines for not registering and paying that tax are outrageous too.
Who would have ever thought of a tax on a pet.
I wonder if they will start taxing children one of these days.
They already do tax children...
debunkthemyths (Diary) Monday, January 4th at 10:11AM EDT (link)They do it through advertising and getting parents to buy all the crap that the kids want.
Achance, I notice you wrote:
ZootSuit (Diary) Sunday, January 3rd at 10:42AM EDT (link)I hope you’re not discriminating against White labor. Or Black women, for that matter.
***** Unrepentant African-American nationalist, Unapologetic African-American conservative!
That's exactly what it means zootsuit.
Achance (Diary) Sunday, January 3rd at 10:57AM EDT (link)They still expect to do the deals where you hire the White carpenter by the hour and when you set the hourly rate, you’re paying for him and his “hand,” who is always Black. The hand does all the heavy and dirty work and the handing and holding but isn’t allowed near a real tool, especially a power tool
I’ve been through this before with the “boys” that hang out at the building supply. I’ll just hire my own labor, black or white, but more likely black since the white guys won’t want to get crossthreaded with the boys, rent any tools I don’t have handy down there, and run the job myself.
In Vino Veritas
5555 Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
RoguePolitics (Diary) Monday, January 4th at 8:22PM EDT (link)“Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property”
“In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.”
Karl Marx
“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don’t even know that fire is hot.” George Orwell
“Ancient Rome declined because it had a Senate, now what’s going to happen to us with both a House and a Senate?” Will Rogers
When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object. Patrick Henry
http://theprecinctproject.wordpress.com
Because the Republican Party is NOT going to fix the Republican Party.
http://americanamendment.com/
Because Washington is NOT going to fix Washington.
JSobieski, please explain because I honestly do not understand the psychology
ZootSuit (Diary) Sunday, January 3rd at 10:33AM EDT (link)Why?
Please note that I am truly and sincerely not trying to harangu you or even say what you wrote is wrong. Indeed, I think you are simply expressing what I have seen and heard many people express before. It’s just that I honestly don’t understand the thinking behind it.
My thinking is, unless you need (not want but “need”) to relocate, then you really don’t have an overwhelming care if your mortgage is underwater or not. I will even use myself as an example.
By most standards, I can probably be considered well off. I have had multiple homes and have sold property recently at a profit but for far less than the profit I would have earned if I sold a couple of years ago. But the one home that I have not sold, and have no immediate plans for selling, is my primary home; which, incidentally, is probably underwater. Indeed, I say “probably” underwater because, quite frankly, I do not care enough to look.
I am not planning to move from my primary home in the near future. For me, the important thing is that I can pay my mortgage. It literally does not matter if I am paying (these are completely made up figures) $1000/month on a $300,000 mortgage for a house that is worth $500,000 or $1000/month on a $300,000 mortgage for a house that is worth $100,000: again, the important thing is that I can make my $1000/month mortgage payment. Until I need to sell, I don’t care how much my home is worth.
Now admittedly, tomorrow something may happen where I need to relocate and sell my home. In that case, then yes, I will care if my house is worth $100,000 or $500,000. But until that becomes the case, until it becomes necessary to move, I do not see a reason why I should care.
So again, I do not understand why many people find that an underwater mortgage is an incentive to walk away.
Please, I honestly want to understand the psychology. Maybe there is something that I am missing and need to be concerned about.
***** Unrepentant African-American nationalist, Unapologetic African-American conservative!
Good question
JSobieski (Diary) Monday, January 4th at 5:57AM EDT (link)I can only say that statistically speaking, being underwater is the most common attribute associatd with foreclosure; NOT subprime loans; NOT interest only; and NOT ARMS.
The psychology is clearly short term thinking. Walking away is also the easy way out; why struggle when you can just end the pain.
If you look at a house as primarily an investment rather than a home, why struggle to just barely make it if you are likely to fail in the end? Why not just save the extra money on a month to month basis going forward to take a nice vacation?
Did you know that China has been losing manufacturing jobs since 1995? For the specific data, see Table 1 in the following link: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2005/07/art2full.pdf
I like you a lot Zoot. If there were a few million more
mbecker908 (Diary) Monday, January 4th at 8:06AM EDT (link)folks like you we wouldn’t have the real estate problems we’ve got.
Here’s the difference: “house” “home”.
There are two things driving the problems we’ve got now.
First is that people woke up one morning – back in the late ’90′s – and decided that momma’s nest was a line on their personal balance sheet. Their “home” became an “asset”. Hey, at a 10% appreciation I can make $60K a year on a $600,000 house instead of a lousy $15K on my crummy $150,000 house. Those folks now (or soon will) have neither.
Second, investment property. Realtors were holding seminars right and left teaching people that anybody could make lots of money in real estate with no work and no knowledge of the market simply because everybody wanted their own house and nobody’s making any more land.
In fact, real estate is a crappy investment for the vast majority of people. Only very sophisticated or very very lucky people make money in real estate over time. I won’t bore you with the details, but the bottom line is this: real property ain’t liquid, you can’t control the market and if you get on the wrong side of it, you’re stuck.
Let's say someone bought a $600,000 home
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Monday, January 4th at 8:39AM EDT (link)and are paying $4,500/mo on your mortgage & taxes. Unlike the Zoot, this person really stretched to get that house. But now it’s worth $300,000.
Now that house in the next neighborhood that’s renting for $1,500/month might not look so bad.
Click to see full size image
Say, Becker, I need a heads up.
Flagstaff (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 2:50AM EDT (link)Just let me know when mortgage rates in general are going to start rising and not go back down. That way I can lock in my variable rate balance at a reasonable rate.
Buffett Rule #1: “Tax rates don’t matter if you don’t pay your taxes”
– Unnamed tax adviser to Warren Buffett, Leavenworth, KS, 2011
Buffett Rule #2: “A parrot in every pot and two Volts in every garage”– Jimmy Buffett, at a seance in Margaritaville, 1977
Now is as good a time as any.
mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 11:24AM EDT (link)Rates aren’t going down any time soon, they’ve got nowhere to go but up. And frankly, values have nowhere to go but down.
If I were you, I’d take what I can get now. If you “could have” done better over the next six months it will be only marginally better and frankly not worth the risk that things go haywire.
Honestly, I’m a risk taker. Rolling the dice has never bothered me. Right now, I’d be happy as all get out with the bird in the hand.
Seriously, though, I have to give up about 300 basis points
Flagstaff (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 4:17PM EDT (link)to lock a fixed rate on $40,000.
What I should be looking for is the point before which rates will start to climb steeply. Right now, I’m floating 1% below prime on that balance.
My statement for the day: “The only system in which economists cand reliably predict the future is Communism. In that system, the future is always bad.”
Buffett Rule #1: “Tax rates don’t matter if you don’t pay your taxes”
– Unnamed tax adviser to Warren Buffett, Leavenworth, KS, 2011
Buffett Rule #2: “A parrot in every pot and two Volts in every garage”– Jimmy Buffett, at a seance in Margaritaville, 1977
Flagstaff - Right now you're about 3 points below
mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 7:26PM EDT (link)a 30 year fixed rate. I don’t expect fixed rates to move much for the next six months or so. Prime will probably inch up slowly but you’ve got a heck of a long way to go before it makes any sense.
That said, I’m no interest rate guru and anybody who tells you they know when and how much rates will move you should punch.
Hogwash.
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 5:42PM EDT (link)Lenders didn’t “lure” anybody. If you want to point a finger point it at your industry. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a realtor tell a prospective buyer that “real estate is the safest investment there is, nobody is making more land” I could buy an island and not care what BO does to the economy.
The fundamental problem with residential real estate happened the day somebody woke up and decided that “momma’s nest” was really a line item on their personal balance sheet. That led to buying more expensive houses (not homes) because 10% appreciation on a $600,000 house is more than 10% appreciation on a $150,000 house. Oh, and that equity became an ATM for toys. After all they’re just using the “cash” on their balance sheet. Add to that the unspoken idea that “saving” makes no sense because if I “invest” in real estate the money will grow so much faster. Etc, etc, etc.
The MHA program is money down a rat hole.
I liked this sob story that was in the NY Post a month ago
bk (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 6:56PM EDT (link)This was the one where a judge tossed out ALL the claims by the evil lender and gave the people their house for free. There was a LOT more to the story.
They bought their 3,400-square-foot, one-level house 15 years ago for less than $200,000.
Okay, so let’s round it up to $200K originally. If they didn’t put anything down (unlikely) and had a 9% note (which was around what 30y loans topped out at in 1994), they would have paid off about $20K of the principal in 10 years. So worst case they owed $180K in 2004.
In 2004, court records show, they refinanced, paying off their original mortgage with part of a $292,500 sub-prime loan from Deutsche Bank. They used what was left for health care and for his business.
…
The 2004 loan carried an initial adjustable interest rate of 10.375 percent, which soared to 12.375 percent.
In 2004, 30y rates were around 6% give or take a little. So these people take out an inflated rate loan (that could go even higher) to pay off their $180K mortgage and to borrow an extra $110K. Yeah, who could possibly see any red flags here?
The Horoskis — who had been paying only interest on their mortgage — have no equity in the home.
…
It eventually ended up being either owned or serviced by IndyMac, and the bank sued the couple in July 2005 when they began having trouble making payments because of Horoski’s health problems.
So it turns out the stupid loan they took out in 2004 was an interest-only loan, making things even worse. One of the couple is a college professor, so presumably they are not some rubes off the street who don’t know squat. No sooner did they take out the loan than they started missing payments apparently.
The judge wiped out $525,000 in mortgage payments demanded by a California bank, blasting its “harsh, repugnant, shocking and repulsive” acts.
…
It erased up to $291,000 in principal and $235,000 in interest and penalties.
Yeah those lenders were incredibly evil weren’t they?
Role of the Realtor in the bubble?
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:28PM EDT (link)mbecker
I’m curious of why you are not talking about the role fo the Realtor types in feeding the bubble. There were an awful lot of commissions made on sales out of the bubble after all and as the sales force for helping inflate the bubble, I think they have some blame to share too.
One of the worst of the worst was out in Bakersfield by a one guy name Crisp.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
Actually, Realtors drove the market...
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:48PM EDT (link)but in reality they just acted like enablers to people driven stupidity. I don’t deny them their commissions, they served the market.
The Realty Industry however, did two things that I personally find unconscionable. The fostered the “there’s no bubble, nobody’s making more land” BS virtually as part of their mission statement. The second thing they did – and I hope there’s a reserved hot seat in Hell for them for this – was to bring untold numbers of very unsophisticated new investors into the RE investment game. They used the “no bubble” lure and showed returns based on minimum or no down payments combined with price inflation projections that anybody familiar with history would know couldn’t be sustained.
Money “can” be made in real estate. It is, however, a highly risky and quite sophisticated investment. It’s NOT liquid. You can’t control the market and if it turns you can’t react to it. With regard to rental property, most “investors” are not equipped, either mentally or financially, to deal with renters and the vagaries of the business.
Agree
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:56PM EDT (link)mbecker
I saw the same out here in CA, got caught up to some extent but not too bad. Sold High, bought bigger but from a builder, watched value soar, watch value crash, sitting still in a too big a house with kids about to leave the nest. I’m sure that’s a common story from many of the people who bought and sold in the last 8 years or so.
I’m watching what the housing market is doing in my little patch, which is mostly going sideways or maybe very slightly upward. At least I’m sitting on a fixed mortgage so that much is predictable.
The “instant expert” Real-estate professionals, they seem to be doing something else, used cars comes to mind.
But hey, my dogs like the big back yard and the pool.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
the biggest thing is that you got a fixed rate
kyle8 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:38PM EDT (link)I bought low, bought on a fixed low rate. And bought to live in, not to invest.
So I really don’t care what current prices are like, I know that in the long run I will still get some good appreciation.
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
Well, the whole "flip this house" mentality was everywhere.
Achance (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:58PM EDT (link)I saw an episode of that one night where they took a little three bedroom ranch like mine and flipped it. I have one almost just like my sister’s house on the old cotton field in Georgia. Mine has a few more amenities but is basically the same house but is appraised at six times what her’s is appraised at. This one was in LA and was appraised at almost three times what mine is, or was.
Now we’re talking ’60s houses with at most $20 or $30K in nominal dollars in land, material, and labor. Throw in the inflation and at most you’re looking at somewhere around a $100 – $150K in real value. In a small town in Georgia, that house is worth $60K, in Juneau over $300K, and in LA on a smaller lot almost $900K. That is insanity!!!!
Thank God I never did more than maybe refi one time too many to send kids to college and live like I made more than I did. I’m not upside down, but even after 20 years in the house and paying off the first once, I sure wouldn’t walk away with much even in a pretty stable economy.
In Vino Veritas
Come the "big one"
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:01PM EDT (link)Art,
If the house makes it through the next “big one”, i’ll be OK…LOL
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
Are you required to have quake ins? nt
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:23PM EDT (link)Not required...and it's expensive
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:35PM EDT (link)Probably making a mistake, but it’s around 2K a year and I have a new house….so no.
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Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
Yeah, quake ins is something you ONLY buy if it's
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 9:09PM EDT (link)absolutely required by the lender.
You know the government will pay for "the big one,"
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 12:27AM EDT (link)so you’re a fool to insure against it and pay out your own money. I think that’s what the economists call moral hazard.
I’m in a seismic zone too and I don’t have flood/tsunami insurance or quake insurance. If I don’t survive it, I won’t care, and if I do,the givamint will bail me out because I vote. Sad but true.
In Vino Veritas
If you're under about 45-50 you've known only good economic times
Achance (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 11:50AM EDT (link)for your whole adult life. Unless you were place bound or had no skills and no willingness to get any, even if your industry was not thriving, some other one somewhere was. The economy was booming despite the Democrat media’s best efforts, interest rates were stable and for a time historically low, wages were growing for experienced and skilled workers, layoffs were unheard of except in some of the dead and dying legacy industries. It is easy to see how people could think it would always be that way.
Combine that with the dearth of historical knowledge posessed by most Americans and the magical thinking being fostered by the post-modernist educators, it is easy to see how large numbers of Americans could make very bad decisions whether it is buying a house that they had no reasonable expectation of paying for over time or voting for “hope and change” because they had become convinced that they were somehow living in “the worst economy since the Great Depression,” to use a favorite Democrat line. We’ll, in some sectors and some parts of the economy, we do now have the worst economy since the Great Depression. The Boomers got mugged by the reality of the ’70s and early ’80s and most of them learned from it. We’ll see how the young folk do.
In Vino Veritas
True enough.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 12:29PM EDT (link)Although I’ve been laid off more times than I’d care to count (3 times from the same company).
I started working in ’77. From ’79 I worked as an architectural draftsman. It’s a terribly volatile industry. The first thing to go when times get tough is construction. It’s also the last thing to start up when things get better. Even through the early ’80s I was always able to find a job somewhere.
I transitioned to IT in the ’90s because it was a much more stable profession. I guessed wrong again, although I’ve been fortunate to have my latest job for 10 years now.
“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti
You didn't, some did.
The_Gadfly (Diary) Monday, January 4th at 5:40PM EDT (link)You’re a good egg and a straight shooter; too many others out there aren’t. I rent in the Beltway Zone. A couple of years ago my roommate decided she was far enough up in the pay brackets and had a large enough nest egg to get herself another tax deduction. She figured she could afford a $250-$275K house. With her available down payment money, the realtors AND the banks told her she could easily afford a $500K house. And even with a mechanical engineering degree, she couldn’t figure out the math on the deals they were trying to get her to take. She literally had to fight them to get only a $275K house and a fixed rate mortgage. Needless to say, she never went upside down on the house, even though prices here fell too. I moved with her and continue to rent, but if I had moved out at any time, she planned so she could still pay the mortgage on her salary alone. But then she’s a straight shooter like you. Oh, and she refied this summer to a lower rate and to consolidate her pair of loans.
Several points, in no particular order...
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 5:33PM EDT (link)1. As with most realtors, you are seriously understating the market.
2. Right now banks are holding REO inventories that are about equal to current MLS inventories.
3. New construction is dead and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Builders are sitting on HUGE inventories of partially developed land.
4. We’re nowhere near the bottom of the market, not even close.
5. You can “modify” loans till hell freezes over and you won’t stop the fall in the market or raise the bottom. You’ll just extend the inevitable.
6. The default rate on modified loans is significantly higher than on existing loans.
7. There’s about $100B worth of option arms that are going to adjust this year. Think mostly high end property in areas already hit hard by price declines.
8. The Fed and their $8K rebate is simply propping up prices to new purchasers. In the long run – as in the second day after it expires – prices will fall.
9. If you’re a builder, you can kiss off getting construction loans for new developments or to complete existing developments.
10. Servicing banks are sitting on HUGE inventories of loans that are 90+ days in default. For example, Wells Fargo has almost 10% of their portfolio of 1-4 family homes (residential real estate) over 90 days. Cure rate on those loans is historically about 5%.
11. Current FHA loans are defaulting at about 18%. Keep in mind that those borrowers have the best rates they’ll ever get and absolutely no equity.
12. New FHA underwriting rules this year should raise the minimum credit score for an FHA loan from 620 to 660. That will take out 35% to 50% of potential borrowers.
Bottom line, a growing inventory of empty houses, large numbers of people in homes that they will never be able to sell, residential construction industry relegated to hobby status, lenders raising standards and reducing the number of eligible borrowers.
I’ve said for a couple of years that we were in for a five year turn around if the government stayed out of the market and ten if they got in. I was wrong. It’s probably more like twenty and every penny the government puts in to “rescuing” homeowners and the real estate market in the form of rebates or modification fees is cash totally pissed down a rat hole.
"Servicing banks are sitting on HUGE inventories of loans that are 90+ days in default."
bk (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 6:59PM EDT (link)How many times did we hear that lenders needed to not toss people out of their homes just before the holidays etc. Those will be the first folks in a LONG line of people who get evicted. While many are sad cases of course, there are also no doubt many people who are gaming the system.
The banks aren't completing the trustee sales
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:19PM EDT (link)in anything like a timely manner. Although it varies somewhat by state, the “normal” rule would look something like up to 119 days in arrears you can negotiate partial payments. When you click 120 days the servicer issues a “notice of default” and sets a date for a trustee sale (foreclosure). At the point the NOD is issued, the lender will typically no long take partial payments, you need to cure the default – back interest & principle, late charges and fees – in order to cancel the sale.That sale is typically scheduled for 90 days from the date of the NOD. Bottom line is about seven months of no payments and you lose the house.
Right now lenders are sitting on NODs in large numbers that are well past the initial sale date. They don’t want the additional REO.
If you’re up to getting really creeped out go here…
This is what happens when the banker doesn't know anybody
Achance (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:48PM EDT (link)in the community. Back in the day of local banks, the worst that would come of most forclosures is that the property changed hands legally and the person forclosed on lost whatever they’d paid and began paying rent. That’s how lots of banks came to own many thousands of acres, lots of houses, and not a few commericial buildings and even corporations.
Now, the branch manager in Podunk has no more connection to the community that does the the WalMart manager and less than the kid running the McDonalds.
Once again, big proves to be bad.
In Vino Veritas
Economists have been talking about the pending
avgamerican (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:59PM EDT (link)commercial real estate crisis since last year. SOme say it will be worse than the forclosure crisis we just went through.
I don't know if it will be "worse", but I can guarantee you
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:09PM EDT (link)it will be more complicated.
Caveat, I’ve never messed with commercial real estate, except to lose some money.
There are typically two kinds of commercial RE. Small parcels owned by individuals or LLCs of several small investors. These folks have the potential to be a detonation (thank you Kenny) waiting to happen.
Then there is Donald Trump, etal. The “big” guys tend to be cross collateralized and their loans are generally underwritten by groups of banks.
Here is the application of the old adage: if you owe the bank $10,000 they own you. If you owe the bank $10,000,000, you own the bank.
The real wild card in all of this is that lenders own so much residential REO I would guess that they’ll be reluctant to add a bunch of strip malls to their inventory. And if there’s one thing that banks aren’t, it’s commercial real estate managers. Now WalMart on the other hand…
Not trying to understate...
hawkpwr2000 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 7:56PM EDT (link)“1. As with most realtors, you are seriously understating the market.”
I was hoping the diary would do the opposite. The main message I wanted to get across was that is that the real estate decline is just getting started and about to get worst. Despite wanting to find the positive, the data is very scary.
The data I found on the total value of the ARMs was over 2 trillion dollars, even a small percent of defualts on this amount will be devestating.
Your right that the banks are sitting on a huge inventory of homes that have not hit the market yet, and still more that are 90+ days in default.
As I said in the diary, 10 million more foreclosures would be the best case scenario.
Great point about the builders trying to obtain credit. Even those with proven track records and high credit scores are having a tough time getting loans.
Please read Ethan’s real estate articles at examiner.com
www.examiner.com/x-31875-Macon-Real-Estate-Examiner?showbio
Visit his website at: www.warnerrobinsrealestateguy.com
From a construction worker's view
avgamerican (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:03PM EDT (link)My brother is a superintendant of a construction co in CA. His job has been hanging on by a thread for the better part of a year with no end in sight.
He needs a new career. The CA real estate market
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:10PM EDT (link)is as good as it will get for the next ten to fifteen years.
Indeed
SteveLA (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:14PM EDT (link)Even the new “Centinela” development up on part of the
Taejon Ranch has been stalled, and that is some beautiful country.
I don’t see any of the usual KB, DRHorton or any of the rest of the sprawl makers starting anything new in So California.
______________________________________
Competency over ideological purity and litmus tests
Not only are not starting anything new,
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:18PM EDT (link)they are closing the models except by appointment in lots of existing and way unsold developments.
And they’re sitting on damn near as much land as the Federal Government.
I asked him if Obama's stimulus funding of infrastructure
avgamerican (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:16PM EDT (link)projects is going to help. So far nothing with no near prospects.
Even if houses were free in Kalifornia
izoneguy (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:19PM EDT (link)It would still cost to much to live there. And they are last in many categories. The eco-nazis want everyone out so they can live in the trees in peace.
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
izone that's part of the problem...
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:22PM EDT (link)1. Oversupply.
2. Much stricter lending standards mean fewer qualified buyers.
3. People can’t sell their existing house to either move up or downsize.
4. More supply coming from foreclosures and banks bleeding their REO inventories into the market.
5. In CA, the government makes it silly to either start or grow a business. Even the movie business is moving out.
Well, at least they can't sell their house and move in next to me!
Achance (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:38PM EDT (link)I’ve had enough Californication, thank you.
In Vino Veritas
We aren't all bad...nt.
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 11:46AM EDT (link)“Baseball fits America well because it expresses our longing for the rule of law while licensing our resentment of law givers.” ― Major League Commissioner of Baseball A. Bartlett Giamatti
here one malled close and 1/3 of the strip malls are empty
mom2oneson (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:37PM EDT (link)the crazy thing was, one of the bigger strip mall owners drove a lot of the strong businesses out a few years ago by increasing the rent so high after a wal-mart opened up close by. Those places relocated close by and are still doing great but the new places that moved in there keeping changing and going out of business. Now it’s about about 3/4 empty.
malled=mall :)
mom2oneson (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 8:42PM EDT (link)nt
By the way hawkpwr,
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 9:36PM EDT (link)do you have a link to the story about 12% of mortgages facing foreclosure. I couldn’t find it at the link you provided and frankly that number seems way too high.
12% of mortgages facing foreclosure
hawkpwr2000 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 9:58PM EDT (link)mbecker,
The link for the story can be found here:
www.realtytrac.com/contentmanagement/realtytraclibrary.aspx?channelid=8&ItemID=6675
This quote is at the end of the article…”The Mortgage Bankers Association says that 5.4 million mortgages are presently delinquent or in the formal stages of foreclosure, which equates to 12 percent of all U.S. mortgages. An estimated 16 million borrowers are underwater or owe more on their homes than what they could fetch in today’s market.”
I do not have a link for the MBA’s survey. I know they usually charge alot for it and its hard to find on-line.
Please read Ethan’s real estate articles at examiner.com
www.examiner.com/x-31875-Macon-Real-Estate-Examiner?showbio
Visit his website at: www.warnerrobinsrealestateguy.com
Thank you.
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:12PM EDT (link)The key is “are delinquent”. Ignore 30 and 60 delinquencies, historically the vast majority of those cure. The cure rate falls off a cliff at 90 days.
That said, 11+% of Wells Fargo’s portfolio is 90+ days. BofA is at about 6%.
We’re splitting hairs here, the bottom line is that at the very least, directionally you’re absolutely right.
90 days delinquent
hawkpwr2000 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:23PM EDT (link)Yeah, many of those loans referred to in the Realtytrac article may still be cured.
I’m surprised BofA delinquincy rate isn’t higher. Seems like the majority of foreclosures in this area (middle GA) are BofA (countrywide). On the positive side, they have been keeping me very busy doing the broker price opinions (drive by appraisals).
Please read Ethan’s real estate articles at examiner.com
www.examiner.com/x-31875-Macon-Real-Estate-Examiner?showbio
Visit his website at: www.warnerrobinsrealestateguy.com
Remember to look at this relative to unemployment
acat (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 12:35AM EDT (link)…because if people don’t have *jobs* they can’t make the payments.
I am not looking for the bottom in real estate – the real one – until 6-12 months after unemployment turns around.
I get called a pessimist, though. Apply salt to taste.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
Not even close.
mbecker908 (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 12:45AM EDT (link)There’s a whole lot more driving “the bottom” than in any other real estate contraction.
We’ve NEVER seen the kind of oversupply that is available now. And we’ve also never seen lenders tightening underwriting standards as they are now.
We are likely 10 years from the bottom of the RE market in the “big” markets.
10 years ...
acat (Diary) Saturday, January 2nd at 11:52AM EDT (link)Yeah. And that’s also about how long it’s going to take to get back to 5% unemployment….
Yes, there’s more driving the bottom than just unemployment, and yes, there’s a *lot* of oversupply. It’s going to be a painful decade.
Mew
——

Caveat Suffragator
Until the actual market price is defined and finds its true bottom...
rbdwiggins (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 9:58PM EDT (link)there will be no recovery in the real estate market. Especially the commercial real estate market.
Government intervention on any level will just prolong the pain and increase the overall damage to the economy.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
Yep. And it won't raise the bottom either. nt
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:14PM EDT (link)Leave it to government to really compound the problem...
rbdwiggins (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:26PM EDT (link)by trying to create a false bottom in the real estate market in order to ease the pain of the American consumer and suppress their anger toward elected officials.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
A first-time diarist reaction to RedState
hawkpwr2000 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:02PM EDT (link)This was my first diary on RedState. I was expecting maybe one or two comments. In other places I have written, a comment will typically be “nice article” or “thanks for the info”
I was pleasantly surprised to come back tonight and see over 40 comments and some great discussions. Many commenters offered their own insights to the topic and I have learned a great deal just from reading the comments.
As I spend more time on Red State, I am seeing that this is common. You can learn more from reading the comments throughout Red State than an entire newspaper.
The only negative is that I’m still trying to get used to the flow of the comments and figure out who is responding to which comment.
Thanks for all the great replies. I look forward to becoming more involved here in 2010.
Please read Ethan’s real estate articles at examiner.com
www.examiner.com/x-31875-Macon-Real-Estate-Examiner?showbio
Visit his website at: www.warnerrobinsrealestateguy.com
You can learn more from reading the comments throughout Red State than an entire newspaper
izoneguy (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:06PM EDT (link)BINGO – I have not “read” the newspaper in years…..
“nice article” or “thanks for the info” – heh, heh
Those who had once simpered: “I don’t want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they’ll never miss it!” – then, later, had snapped: “The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they’ve amassed enough to last them for three generations” – then, later, had yelled: “Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?” – now were screaming: “Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?” – Atlas Shrugged
That's why the comments are threaded...
rbdwiggins (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:10PM EDT (link)and we insist on using Reply To This. It makes following multiple discussions in the same post much easier.
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” – Ronald Reagan
Welcome to Redstate.
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:18PM EDT (link)You’ll find a host of people here with a lot of experience in all kinds of business. You’ll also find that people who bounce in with poorly researched diaries get impaled.
This was a well researched piece, was well written and was to the point. One of the biggest problems people have here is 10,000 word diaries.
Again, welcome and happy new year.
just don't be upset if your next diary
kyle8 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:29PM EDT (link)gets barely a peep, sometimes that just happens.
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
Thank you
hawkpwr2000 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 10:27PM EDT (link)Thanks for the welcome and for your insight.
Happy new year to you as well.
Please read Ethan’s real estate articles at examiner.com
www.examiner.com/x-31875-Macon-Real-Estate-Examiner?showbio
Visit his website at: www.warnerrobinsrealestateguy.com
Thank you hawk
Warrior (Diary) Tuesday, January 5th at 1:52PM EDT (link)I know next to nothing about real estate and have learned a lot from your diary and subsequent discussion.
“Racial criteria are irrational, irrelevant, [and] odious to our way of life.” — Thurgood Marshall for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in the 1950 Supreme Court case of McLaurin v. Oklahoma
I just put up a new diary on this subject because
mbecker908 (Diary) Friday, January 1st at 11:30PM EDT (link)of a NYT article that says what I’ve howling about for years. It’s here…
Yes, we are going to have a second wave of foreclosures and a double dip recession - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Sunday, January 3rd at 10:23AM EDT (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com and Charlotte Observer columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Maybe the silver lining
baserunr (Diary) Monday, January 4th at 6:58PM EDT (link)you’re looking for HP2K, is… “the percentage of homeowners who are current on their payments continues to climb…”
After all, with fewer people making payments, and the banks retaining ownership of properties, the number of those paying on-time just has to go up!
“The day you think you know it all is the day your trouble starts.”